1 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on What's Up? 4 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: I heard that you have a porn problem? What is that? 5 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: What are you seeing me? No, that's not it doesn't 6 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: send it's not sounding me as. 7 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 3: All or Mamma Mia. I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome 8 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 3: to But are you happy? The podcast that helps you 9 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 3: realize your patterns aren't just because you're a Pisces with 10 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 3: the Libra moon. 11 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastagia hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about 12 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 2: happiness and mental health. Porn is everywhere, and let's be honest, 13 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: watching it is super common. It's a way a lot 14 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 2: of people explore their sexuality. But it's not all harmless, 15 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 2: and today we're going to talk about some of the 16 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:06,919 Speaker 2: less talked about effects. 17 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's definitely a lot of porn out there shaping 18 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 3: some pretty unrealistic and sometimes harmful ideas about sex and intimacy. 19 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 2: Right exactly, I'm going to unpack what porn actually does 20 00:01:19,039 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 2: to our brain chemistry and how it might be influencing 21 00:01:22,039 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 2: our romantic and sexual relationships, often without us even realizing. 22 00:01:26,559 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 3: This is such an important conversation. And just to preface, 23 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 3: we're not here to shame anyone. We're talking about sex 24 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 3: and porn in an open, honest way because avoiding the 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 3: topic doesn't make the impact any less real. This is 26 00:01:38,759 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 3: a very adult conversation about the realities of porn and 27 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 3: its impact in our sex lives and beyond. So do 28 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 3: listen mindfully, let's get into it. I feel like porn 29 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 3: is so accessible to really anyone, even kids, right. 30 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely to anyone, and especially kids. 31 00:01:58,280 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 3: Right. 32 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,919 Speaker 2: And it's funny you bring up kids right at the start, 33 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: because I was doing some research and reading that apparently 34 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: porn is now one of the biggest sexual educators that 35 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 2: children have. Research says that about half of boys by 36 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 2: the time they reach thirteen, they've seen porn, and for girls, 37 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 2: half have seen porn by the age of fifteen. 38 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: Wow, this is so young. That is very young. 39 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: And if you think about the type of pornography they 40 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 2: have access to, right, it's anything in everything. You can 41 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 2: access pornography websites by just clicking the button that says yep, 42 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: I'm over the age of eighteen. 43 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: There's no real barriers in place, and if. 44 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 2: We think back years ago, you know, we didn't have 45 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: access to the internet like we do these days. You'd 46 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: have to take a long time to download a video 47 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 2: or something. Nowadays, our kids have access to pornography in 48 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: so many different, quick, easy accessible ways. 49 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 3: It's really alarming when you break it down like that 50 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 3: as well, So at that age, what's going on with 51 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 3: their brain. 52 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 2: So a couple of things about the adolescent brain, right, 53 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: it's still very much developing, and two key things to 54 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: know about the developing adolescent brain. First of all, it 55 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 2: is highly susceptible to emotions and impulses. Right, So, the 56 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: limbic system in the brain, which is kind of an 57 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: older part of the brain which is responsible more so 58 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 2: for emotions and impulses, that's very well developed. But the 59 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: prefrontal cortex in the brain that helps us regulate ourselves 60 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: is not so well developed. So this is why we 61 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 2: see teens who are quite impulsive and struggle to sort 62 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: of make responsible decisions and regulate themselves. But the other 63 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 2: key thing about the developing brain is that it's highly plastic. 64 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 2: And when I say plastic, I mean it's very susceptible 65 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: to changes. It's very susceptible to the information that we 66 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: put into the brain, and this has pros and cons right, 67 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 2: brilliant for learning. It's why kids can learn things so 68 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: much faster than adults can. 69 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 3: Right. 70 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: It's very susceptible to what we put in. It learns 71 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: very quickly. But if we give it the wrong sorts 72 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: of inputs or unhealthy inputs like pornography, then it's going 73 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: to be wired to understand those messages and not healthier messages. 74 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 3: So what about the adult brain, how is that different 75 00:04:22,719 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 3: from the adolescent brain. 76 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so for both teens and adults. What happens in 77 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: the brain when we watch pornography or we have sex, right, 78 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 2: anything that's got that sexual nature to it is I'm 79 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 2: going to say my favorite word, dopamine is released. Right, 80 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: and again, from an evolutionary perspective, we needed dope mean 81 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: to be released during sexual interactions because this resulted in 82 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 2: survival of the species. We needed people to have sex, 83 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 2: We needed that to be a pleasurable and rewarding experience 84 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: because we needed people and humans to procreate the same 85 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: Dopamine pathways and reward pathways activated in the brain when 86 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 2: people watch pornography, and what we know about these reward 87 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 2: pathways in the brain is that over time they can 88 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 2: somewhat become desensitized. 89 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: So what that. 90 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 2: Means is that we need more of something to get 91 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 2: that same feeling of pleasure. So that might be that 92 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 2: we need more pornography, or we need more intense sort 93 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 2: of or stimulating pornography to be viewed in order to 94 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 2: get that same pleasurable feeling from it. 95 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 3: So then, in a way, that would really impact sex 96 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 3: in general too, because if they're consuming all this porn 97 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 3: that's releasing all this high dopamine, that would impact naturally 98 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 3: your sex life. 99 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, And if we put that back in the 100 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: context of kids, right, if children are watching porn before 101 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: they've ever even had a sexual experience, right, when we 102 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 2: think about what's happening in the brain, they're getting massive 103 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: dopamine activation from watching potentially some pretty intense pornographic scenes. 104 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: Right when they then go and have. 105 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 2: Much less intense experiences in real life, there's a real 106 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 2: chance that that's not going to feel as fulfilling or 107 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 2: satisfying or as exciting or pleasurable as what they've seen 108 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: on the videos online. 109 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 3: There was something you were talking about before around dopamine 110 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 3: and addiction, which I know is definitely up your ali. 111 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 3: So is there such a thing called a porn addiction? 112 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 3: Is that a clinical definition? 113 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 2: So people can absolutely become addicted to pornography. It's not 114 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 2: yet technically kind of recognized in our diagnostic manuals as 115 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: a standalone diagnosis, okay, but between sort of clinicians and researchers, 116 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 2: we have an understanding that yes, this is a thing 117 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 2: that certainly does exist. So if I actually just break 118 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: down what an addiction is, because there are key features 119 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 2: of addictions that go across all sorts of addictions, whether 120 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 2: it's alcohol, whether it's porn, whether it's gambling, there are 121 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 2: some key features and I'll refer to the component's model 122 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 2: of addiction by Professor Mark Griffiths. So what we see 123 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: with any kind of addiction is that there's a salience 124 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: and a preoccupation with the addictive behavior. So in the 125 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 2: context of pornography, a person will find that they're thinking 126 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 2: about consuming porn very often. It's on their mind a lot. 127 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: They might be at work and it's popping into their mind. 128 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 2: There's this kind of mental preoccupation with it. We also 129 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: see mood modification. So when I engage with the addictive 130 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 2: behavior like pornography, I feel different in some way. I 131 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: use it in a way that helps me regulate myself. 132 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: Either it makes me feel excited, either it's a form 133 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: of escape, it makes me feel calmer, whatever it might be. 134 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: There's mood modification, yeah, okay. 135 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: We also find that people build a tolerance with an addiction. 136 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: So maybe, as I was saying with porn before, I 137 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 2: could sort of watch certain types of porn, but now 138 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: I feel like I need to watch more intense porn 139 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: or greater amounts of porn. Or maybe I transition from 140 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 2: watching porn to interacting with sex workers online. Right, so 141 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: I'm now kind of on live chat's talk to people. 142 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: So there's this kind of tolerance that builds that makes 143 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: me need or want more of it. We also see withdrawals, 144 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: So if someone tries to stop doing something like watching 145 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 2: porn when they have had some sort of addiction to it, 146 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: they will experience these withdrawal symptoms. And withdrawals are not 147 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 2: just relating to drugs and alcohol chemically, but our body 148 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 2: goes through a similar sort of process where we stop something, 149 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: we go into this dopamine deficit state and it feels 150 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: really bad. 151 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 3: So when you say withdrawals, like, what does that actually 152 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 3: look like? Is it that they get a little bit 153 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 3: more irritable or I mean, I assume it will be 154 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 3: different for other people as well. 155 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, irritable, uncomfortable. 156 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm getting a lot of urges to 157 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 2: engage with something, so I feel like I've got that 158 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: inner turmoil kind of going on, which is also very 159 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 2: much related to the next point around conflict. An addiction 160 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: has this characteristic of conflict. So I have this inner 161 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: conflict with myself. There's a part of me that wants 162 00:09:10,680 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 2: to keep watching porn, and there's a part of me 163 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 2: that wants to stop because I know that it's harming 164 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 2: me in some way, and then finally relapse. 165 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: So people often who have an. 166 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 2: Addiction will make some sort of attempt to try and 167 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 2: reduce or stop their use completely, but because that is 168 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: so hard, we often find that people will have lapses 169 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: and relapses. 170 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: Where they go back to it. 171 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 3: So is there a difference between porn addiction and sex addiction. 172 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 2: There is, they are two distinct kind of diagnoses. Someone 173 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: who has a sex addiction doesn't necessarily have a porn addiction, 174 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 2: and someone who's got a porn addiction won't necessarily have 175 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: a sex addiction. But I mean, I work a lot 176 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 2: with behavioral addictions in my clinical work, and what I 177 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: will often see is this kind of blurring in the 178 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: middle sometimes where people who do have a sex addiction 179 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 2: might consume higher amounts of pornography than other people would. 180 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 2: And sometimes people who have a pornography addiction, and when 181 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 2: it really becomes quite serious, they potentially start to venture 182 00:10:15,560 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 2: into things like getting erotic massages or not just watching 183 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: pornography but more engaging with content creators online, webcam chats, 184 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: et cetera. Things like that, So they sort of start 185 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 2: to blur into that middle ground where they don't necessarily 186 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: have sex addiction, but they are engaging in additional sexual behaviors. 187 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 3: So I know, you've really unpacked a lot around addiction, 188 00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 3: just generally when it comes to porn and sex. But 189 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 3: something I am curious about is what's the impact of 190 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 3: porn addiction on relationships. 191 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question, and it's a question I 192 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: actually get asked a lot, right Like, when I see 193 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 2: someone in the clinic who has a porn addiction. A 194 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: lot of the time, these people may very well be 195 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 2: in relationships, and so we have to have these conversations 196 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 2: about what the impact is on the relationship, not just 197 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 2: the individual person themselves. What we often see is that 198 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 2: there can be a sense of reduced sexual satisfaction in 199 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 2: the relationship. So if someone is consuming great quantities of 200 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 2: pornography online, and when I say large quantities, like that 201 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 2: could be daily use for like an hour, or it 202 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 2: could be literally eight to nine hours a day. Like 203 00:11:30,680 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 2: there really is a spectrum we're talking about as to 204 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 2: how much someone can consume. But if someone is consuming 205 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: a lot of pornography, they often then feel like their 206 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: real life sexual experiences are not quite as exciting or satisfying, 207 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: and this then becomes a problem in the relationship. The 208 00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 2: partner can often feel that as well, right, We often 209 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: hear partners say that they feel this kind of pressure 210 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: or expectation to be like, you know what we see 211 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: porn stars acting like, and the reality is A, that's 212 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 2: just not them and B they don't necessarily want to 213 00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 2: be that either. So there's a lot of internal pressure 214 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 2: that can be placed on the partner, but also this 215 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: reduced sexual satisfaction the relationship. 216 00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: That said, it doesn't have. 217 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 2: To be an entirely negative thing, right, Like, pornography can 218 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: be used in relationships in positive, healthy ways, but the 219 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 2: key is that there's got to be good communication around 220 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 2: that and consent around that. Usually we find there are 221 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 2: difficulties when one person is consuming a lot more porn 222 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: than the other person. 223 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 3: And it's really good that you kind of speak to 224 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 3: both sides of the equation as well, like looking at 225 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 3: the negative impacts, but then also there's potential positive impacts 226 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 3: from you know, if it is coming from a place 227 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 3: where both people in the relationship know how to move 228 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 3: through it, right, absolutely, Yeah, because I mean sexy in 229 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 3: generally it is really vulnerable as well, and I can 230 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 3: imagine that can also be really hard as the partner 231 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 3: being like, oh, this is like, you know, exposing the 232 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 3: most vulnerable part of me, and we're not on the 233 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 3: same page. But I mean, that's why it's so amazing 234 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 3: that people come to see people like you to move 235 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 3: through that together. 236 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 237 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 2: And actually, sometimes the pathway into people getting support if 238 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 2: they are watching a lot of porn is that they're 239 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: experiencing some sort of sexual dysfunction or like a rectile dysfunction. Particularly, 240 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: we see this more in men than women typically, so 241 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 2: men will actually kind of present with some sort of 242 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: rectile dysfunction and then it's kind of discovered that excessive 243 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 2: pornography use might be. 244 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: A cause of this. 245 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 3: I'm also really curious to know what else comes up 246 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 3: in your client work. 247 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, so a few things. 248 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: So often when someone is struggling with a pornography addiction 249 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 2: or let's just say, using pornography too much, even if 250 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 2: it's not kind of a clinical addiction, I find that 251 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 2: there's often other things in that person's life that they 252 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 2: might also be doing excessively. So, particularly in young men, 253 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 2: I'll see this with excessive video games. Excessive video games 254 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 2: and excessive pornography seem to sort of go hand in 255 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 2: hand a lot of the time, and when we think 256 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 2: about this, it's a bit of an escape, right. Often 257 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: addictions of any sort develop as a way of a 258 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 2: person coping with something in life. So there's the coping element, 259 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: and then you add in conjunction what happens in the 260 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 2: brain with dopamine pathways and how rewarding it can be, 261 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 2: and those two things combined can just be this mixing 262 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 2: pot for an addiction to develop. For someone who's got 263 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 2: the right vulnerabilities, so we find that someone might also 264 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 2: have other things that they're struggling with. And the impact 265 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 2: on mental health I think is an important one to mention, 266 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 2: because people who are consuming pornography in a way that 267 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: doesn't feel good for them will often. 268 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: Feel a lot of guilt. 269 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 2: They might present with low self esteem, they might present 270 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 2: with depression, anxiety about people finding out, like all sorts 271 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: of kind of secondary problems relating to their mood and 272 00:14:58,240 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 2: their mental health. 273 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 3: It's interesting you talk about just shame generally when it 274 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 3: comes to sex and porn because there is a lot 275 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 3: of taboo around it, and I mean, I feel like 276 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 3: we're in a time where we are starting to talk 277 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 3: about it more openly, like hence why we're having this 278 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 3: conversation today. And then there's also other layers on top 279 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 3: of that, especially culturally as well, Like I know from 280 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 3: my South Asian lens, we don't talk about sex or 281 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 3: anything like that with our parents. Like even to date, 282 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 3: you know, I'm a grown adult, I still don't talk 283 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 3: about that stuff, you know. So you know, it's nice 284 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 3: that there's spaces that people can come to to be able. 285 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: To talk about it. 286 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's important to talk about how porn 287 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 3: has made a lot of women feel unsafe in intimate environments. 288 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and there's a lot I can say on this. 289 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 2: One of the first things that comes to mind when 290 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 2: you say that is I watched this documentary called in 291 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 2: the Picture, and this was a documentary where they interviewed 292 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 2: a whole range of porn actors, porn producers, directors, etc. 293 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: And one of the directors is being interviewed and he 294 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: literally states, pornography nowadays has become a lot of it 295 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: has become very rough, right. It doesn't show consents, It 296 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: shows roughness, it shows sex strangulation that we'll talk about 297 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 2: in a moment. 298 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: But what he was saying is that during the direction 299 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: of these. 300 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 2: Clips, if women are pulling faces that show that they're 301 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 2: in pain because they're literally being hurt, they will stop 302 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 2: the clips. They will be like, don't pull that face, 303 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 2: No one wants to see that. Do it again and restart. 304 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: So they will literally be directed to not show on 305 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: their face that they're in pain. WHOA, So what sort 306 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 2: of message does that send to anyone watching that clip? 307 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: To a guy, it'll be like, oh, well, she clearly 308 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 2: likes it. And to a woman it might be like, Oh, 309 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 2: she likes it, why don't I? 310 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: Wow? 311 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 3: So many illusions in that as well. Wow, yeah, so 312 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 3: you said something just before that. You've got to circle 313 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 3: back to around sexual strangulation. 314 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 2: Yes, okay, So choking in pawn has become almost mainstream. 315 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 2: There's something called the Breathless campaign that's been going around 316 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 2: over the last year or so, and it's really all 317 00:17:09,919 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 2: about raising awareness as to the negative consequences that can 318 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: come from choking and sexual strangulation during pawn because it 319 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 2: is so often shown in clips. It's shown without consent, 320 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 2: but there's also this misconception that's come about that it's safe, 321 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 2: and so the Breathless campaign is all about breaking this 322 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 2: myth and actually bringing awareness to the fact that there 323 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 2: are a lot of physical dangers that come about with 324 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 2: sexual strangulation and we don't necessarily see the risks or 325 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 2: the negative outcomes in that moment, right someone thinks, Okay, 326 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 2: I wasn't unconscious if I was choked or strangled, so 327 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 2: I'm okay, But actually the effects can be shown weeks 328 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 2: months later. 329 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: Really wow. 330 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 2: So the impacts of the sexual strangulation could be things 331 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 2: like headaches, blurry vision, depression, anxiety, or just impairments to 332 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 2: our cognitive functioning and our brain. But also what they 333 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 2: find is that there can be serious injury to sort 334 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 2: of like our neck ariesophagus, structures of the neck, blood vessels, airways, 335 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 2: and these things don't show up immediately, that's the thing, 336 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 2: so people can can falsely think that it's safe when 337 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 2: it's really not. 338 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 1: Wow. 339 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 3: I mean I didn't even know that until now, So 340 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 3: I can imagine AI is bringing like a whole other 341 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 3: level of complexity to this. 342 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 1: Right. Oh, yes, we. 343 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 2: Could have a we could have a whole podcast episode 344 00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 2: just on AI and porn and sex. Right, Like, we've 345 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 2: obviously seen the rise of deep fakes that have been 346 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 2: all through the news and the media and the devastating 347 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: effect that that has on victims of deep fakes as well. 348 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 2: But I was reading some interesting material that was on 349 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: the E Safety Commission website and it was saying, of 350 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 2: all deep fake material, right, So when we're talking deep 351 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 2: fake material, we're talking about AI generated material that kind 352 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 2: of looks real but it's not. Right, of all this 353 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 2: deep fake material online. Pornographic videos make up ninety eight 354 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 2: percent of all deep fake material online and ninety nine 355 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 2: percent of the imagery is of women and girls. So 356 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 2: this is a very gendered problem that we're facing. 357 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 3: Wow, I don't even know that either. You're dropping a 358 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 3: lot of a lot of staff today, right numbers. 359 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, So when we think about this, it's it's you know, 360 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 2: I just can't help but think, what message is that 361 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 2: sending young boys, young men who. 362 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 1: Are watching this. 363 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 2: You know, what sort of message is it's sending about 364 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 2: how normalized it might be to use AI porn? What 365 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: message is it's sending about consent? You know, if you're 366 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 2: engaging with AI porn, you're not requesting someone's consents, right, 367 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 2: So what sort of message does that send people about 368 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 2: how consent works in the real world? I think there 369 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 2: are so many problems with it. So at the end 370 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 2: of the day, all things considered, pornography is just an 371 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 2: ethical mind field. 372 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 3: After the break, doctor Anastasia is going to explain what 373 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 3: a healthy, safe adult sexual relationship looks like with or 374 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 3: with that porn. So how do we actually re examine 375 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 3: our relationship to porn and start moving forward towards healthier intimacy. 376 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 2: So for any healthy sexual relationship that we might have, 377 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 2: whether or not we're talking about porn or not, we 378 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 2: need two key fundamental factors to be at play communication 379 00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 2: and consent. And I guess consent is based on communication, right, 380 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 2: So we need people to feel like they can have healthy, open, 381 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 2: honest conversations with one another about their interests, their desires, 382 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 2: their fantasies, their likes, their dislikes. 383 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 1: Their boundaries, their hard nos. 384 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 2: Right. So if we don't have that foundation of trust 385 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 2: and communication and openness, it's going to be very high 386 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 2: hard to build a relationship where there is satisfaction when 387 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 2: it comes to sex. 388 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 3: We hear a lot about consent, but how do we 389 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 3: actually do it? Like, do you have a bit of 390 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 3: a framework that you can give us? We love your frameworks. 391 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: Without a framework, yes, I do. 392 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 2: Funnily enough, this is the FRI's acronym that's going to 393 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 2: help with consent. When I say fries, I mean like 394 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 2: hot chip fries, right. 395 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: The best kind of fries yea. 396 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 2: So this is actually a framework that was developed by 397 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 2: planned parenthood, and it's all about affirmative consent. So when 398 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 2: we're talking about affirmative consent, we mean that a person 399 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 2: needs to take steps to say or do something that 400 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 2: indicates that they are willingly consenting to being involved in 401 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 2: a sexual activity. So I'll go through what the acronym 402 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 2: stands for, because I think it's a really useful way 403 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 2: for people to get their head around consent because, as 404 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: you said, we talk about it a lot, but. 405 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: How and what is it? Yeah? 406 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 2: Okay, So the F in the Fry's acronym stands for 407 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 2: freely given. We need to be freely and willingly giving 408 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 2: our consent to participate in sexual activities. We don't want 409 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 2: to be coerced or forced into it. So it's this 410 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 2: idea that just like, it's not just about saying yes, 411 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 2: it's about. 412 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: Freely feeling like I can give that consent. 413 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: The R stands for reversible, So consent is always reversible. 414 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 2: Just because I say yes in this moment to this 415 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 2: sexual activity doesn't mean I can't change my mind. 416 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: For absolutely no reason at all. 417 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 2: Right, I can change my mind, there doesn't have to 418 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 2: be a reason for it, and I can reverse that consent. 419 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: So consent is always reversible. 420 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 2: And just because I said yes to doing a sexual 421 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 2: act last time doesn't mean I need to say yes 422 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 2: to it this time again. 423 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 3: That's such a good one to double down on because 424 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 3: I feel like, I mean for women generally and I 425 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 3: know for me, even just just when you say yes 426 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 3: and then you change it to a note, I can 427 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 3: imagine there's a bit of guilt there, and then you 428 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 3: force yourself into doing something you actually didn't want to do. 429 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 3: So I like that this is part of the framework. 430 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 3: It's like just because you said it once before, like 431 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 3: you have every right to change that. 432 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: So that's really empowering and. 433 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 2: That you can just change your mind, right, There doesn't 434 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 2: have to need to be a justification or a reason 435 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 2: for it. 436 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so what about I. 437 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 2: I stands for informed. So if I'm consenting to anything, 438 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 2: I need to know what I'm consenting to. Otherwise it's 439 00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 2: not consent. I need to have some sort of information 440 00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 2: as to what I'm saying yes to or what I'm 441 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 2: agreeing to participate in. Right, And this is the part 442 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 2: where I think sometimes people get a little bit stuck 443 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 2: because they're like, well, what am I going to say? 444 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 3: Like? 445 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: Am I going to read out a list of all 446 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: the things I'd like to do with this person? Then 447 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: get the how can I be informed? 448 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 2: You know, sex sort of happens naturally in a way 449 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 2: and we go through the motions. So this is really 450 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 2: where that kind of proactive checking in with one another 451 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 2: is really important. So is it okay if I do this? 452 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 2: Are you okay if we do this now? Right? So 453 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 2: it's not like consent happens before the sexual act starts 454 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 2: and then it all happens. It's an active process that 455 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 2: we come back to throughout sex. 456 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 3: It's so good that you say that because even though 457 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 3: there's a bit of that stop start element, it's so 458 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 3: important because what you see in movies you don't see that. 459 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 3: You just see the one sex scene, right, Like, there's 460 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 3: no stop in starting. So, if anything, it's more realistic. 461 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: Yes. 462 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 2: Yes, So the E stands for enthusiastic, So consent should 463 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 2: be given with genuine desire and excitement and enthusiasm for 464 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 2: what someone's about to do. It's not just the absence 465 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 2: of a no, but we want an enthusiastic Yeah, I'm 466 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 2: willing to get involved in this, okay. So that's the 467 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 2: And then S is specific. So consent needs to be 468 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 2: clear and specific about the actions that are being agreed to. 469 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 2: And just because I've consented to one thing doesn't mean 470 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 2: I've consented to another. Just because I've consented to penetrative 471 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: sex doesn't mean I've consented to oral sex, for example, 472 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 2: So consent needs to be specific. So for anyone who 473 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: feels lost in the conversations around consent, hopefully this is 474 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 2: an acronym that can help break it down for you 475 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 2: so that if you are getting someone else's consent, or 476 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 2: you are wanting to willingly show your consents as well, 477 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 2: you can lean back on this framework for advice. 478 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 3: I don't know why now I'm now going to have 479 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 3: a visual of fries, but I think about sex sexy fries. 480 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: So I also want to add that this FRI's framework 481 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 2: applies to pornography. If consenting adults want to bring pornography 482 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 2: into the sexual space between them, then that requires consent 483 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 2: as well. And this is a framework that can be 484 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 2: followed for how to have a bit of a conversation 485 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: and how to gain consent from your sexual partner about 486 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 2: using pornography when it comes to sex. 487 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 3: So, if you think that you're addicted to pawn, like 488 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 3: for anyone listening in what should they do about that. 489 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: There is absolutely help available. 490 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 2: Right My biggest recommendation is whatever guilt, embarrassment, shame you 491 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 2: might feel, put it to the side. Don't let it 492 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 2: be the barrier that stops you getting help. Doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, 493 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 2: we've heard most of it. Right, It's a rare day 494 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 2: that someone comes in the clinic and tells me something 495 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 2: that's so shocking. And that's often what people fear. They 496 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 2: fear that they're going to come in and tell me 497 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 2: something and I'm going to be. 498 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: Like, WHOA, you're doing, what you're watching? What right? And 499 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: it's just not the case. 500 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 2: Like it's our job to be well across and well 501 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 2: equipped to deal with these kinds of difficulties. So seek 502 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 2: out a therapist that specializes in addictions, that does a 503 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 2: lot of work in addictions, maybe even pornography specifically, and 504 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: booking that. 505 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: First consultation gets some help. There's help out there. 506 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 2: There's a lot of support groups out there as well, 507 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 2: write twelve step type programs, peer led programs from people 508 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 2: who have lived experience with pornography addictions as well. 509 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: There's definitely help out there. 510 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: So put any kind of uncomfortable feelings to the side and. 511 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: Start that process. 512 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 3: After this shortbreak, we hear from a woman who's uncomfortable 513 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 3: with the porn habits of the guy that she's dating. 514 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: Stay with us. Bierb Barb bierby I empowering a serious crisis. 515 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 4: BRB having a crisis. 516 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 3: We've reached that time in our episode where we answer 517 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 3: a question or dilemma from one of you, our listeners. 518 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: This dilemma comes from Robin. 519 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 2: So. 520 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 4: I've been seeing someone for a little while now, and 521 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 4: things are great, except for one thing I just can't 522 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 4: stop thinking about. I've noticed he watches a lot of porn, 523 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 4: and while I know that's common, it kind of makes 524 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 4: me uncomfortable. I worry that what his watching is shaping 525 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 4: what he expects from me in real life. I'm not 526 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 4: into rough or performed of sex, and I'm scared I 527 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 4: won't be enough for him if I don't match what 528 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 4: he's seeing on screen. Can we still have a healthy, 529 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 4: connected sex life if we want such different things? 530 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: Or is this a red flag? 531 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 2: Oh, Robin, you are absolutely describing such common things that 532 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 2: I often hear in the clinic for partners who have 533 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 2: a partner who's watching a lot of porn. That feeling 534 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 2: of like, am I going to be enough? Am I 535 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 2: going to be able to live up to what he's 536 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 2: watching on the screen? 537 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 3: Right? 538 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: My biggest tip for you is communication. 539 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 2: What I'm hearing is a lot of fear, a lot 540 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 2: of worry, a lot of concern. If this is someone 541 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 2: that you're serious about and you can potentially see a 542 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: future with them, open up those conversations early. The earlier 543 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 2: you can get into this, the better. Talk to him 544 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 2: about how much porn he's watching, what kind of porn 545 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 2: he's watching, how it impacts his desire, how it impacts 546 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 2: his sex life, or how it has impacted his sex 547 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 2: life historically. Open that conversation up because A that will 548 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 2: help you perhaps deal with some of your worries right 549 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 2: you might find that some of the answers are not 550 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 2: as concerning as what you thought. 551 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: They might be. 552 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 2: But B it also gives you a platform to be 553 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 2: able to communicate around pornography openly and honestly. And there's 554 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 2: nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable about someone watching porn and 555 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 2: perhaps watching it excessively. There's nothing wrong with communicating your 556 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: fears for what that holds for the relationship. So I 557 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 2: think first and foremost communication is really core here. And 558 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 2: if this does come to be a challenge that the 559 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: two of you feel like you can't quite resolve or 560 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: get past, this is where couple's therapy comes in. This 561 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 2: is where sort of sex therapy comes into play. Couple's 562 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 2: therapists can absolutely help two people navigate these sorts of 563 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 2: differences in a relationship. 564 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 3: Good luck, Robin, You've got this, Anastasia. Can you reiterate 565 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 3: the main takeaways from today's episode absolutely? 566 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,959 Speaker 2: First of all, pawn is so easily accessible and it 567 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 2: is shaping the minds and perspectives of people old and young. Second, 568 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 2: pornography has the potential to become addictive and highly problematic 569 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 2: in someone's life. Third, a healthy sex life is grounded 570 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 2: in open communication and consent. And lastly, remember the Fry's 571 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 2: acronym as a way to discuss consent with others. 572 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 3: If you have a burning question for us, there are 573 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 3: a few ways to get in touch with us. Links 574 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 3: are in the show notes. 575 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 2: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't 576 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present 577 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 2: here should always take into account your personal medical history. 578 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: The executive producer of But Are You Happy? Is Naima Brown. 579 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Charlie Black. Sound design and editing 580 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: by Jacob Brown. I'm a Shani Dante. 581 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernus The names and stories of 582 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 2: clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. 583 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 2: If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, 584 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 2: we have links for more resources in the show notes 585 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 2: around the. 586 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: Topics we discussed today. 587 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 2: You can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue, 588 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 2: Lifeline or one eight hundred respect if you're wanting more 589 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 2: immediate support. 590 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 3: In next week's episode, Anastasia helps us understand what trauma 591 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 3: really means, what PTSD looks like, and share some ways 592 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 3: people can get support. 593 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to today's But Are 594 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 2: You Happy? 595 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: Episode. 596 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 2: We're keen to understand how you're looking after your mental 597 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 2: health these days. There's a survey link in the show notes. 598 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 2: It only takes a few minutes and you'll go in 599 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 2: the draw to win a one thousand dollars gift voucher. 600 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening. See 601 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: you next time.