Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: Somehow along the way, I'd made really bad decisions, or
Speaker 3: I'd not been strong enough, or something like that, and
Speaker 3: so I was dealing with so much shame. And as
Speaker 3: soon as I sat down at the piano, the first
Speaker 3: line I sung was it was never meant to be
Speaker 3: like this. It was never meant to be like this.
Speaker 3: And I just sang that line over and over again
Speaker 3: and cried because it just opened up something in me.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to but Are You Happy? The podcast
Speaker 2: that asked the questions you've always wanted to know from
Speaker 2: the people who appear to have it all. I'm Claire Stevens,
Speaker 2: and on today's episode, I'm talking to somebody who I
Speaker 2: was very nervous to share a room with because she's
Speaker 2: the person who wrote the words and the score to
Speaker 2: My emotional Journey to adulthood. Missy Higgins is a multi
Speaker 2: award winning singer songwriter whose raw and vulnerable songs have
Speaker 2: made her a timeless icon. In the last few years,
Speaker 2: she's started to talk more openly about her personal life,
Speaker 2: and she's revealed the complicated reality behind the very talented,
Speaker 2: very famous, and very young woman who became a household
Speaker 2: name just a few years after she'd finished school. Missy
Speaker 2: Higgins navigated depression, heartbreak, her sexuality, writer's block, a crisis
Speaker 2: of meaning, motherhood, and separation in the public eye. And
Speaker 2: here we talk about the tricky work of finding happiness. Thursday,
Speaker 2: the twelfth of September is r UOK Day, and I
Speaker 2: hope this conversation is a reminder of the fact that
Speaker 2: luks can be deceiving, and things can be more complex
Speaker 2: under the surface, and how crucial it is to ask
Speaker 2: the people around you if they're actually really okay. Here's
Speaker 2: Missy Higgins. I wanted to start by asking whether you
Speaker 2: had a happy childhood.
Speaker 1: I did have a happy childhood. Actually, I had a
Speaker 1: really happy childhood.
Speaker 3: I mean, as far as my home family life goes,
Speaker 3: my family was really really close and always felt like
Speaker 3: a very secure grounding place for me.
Speaker 1: They were my safe place. I remember I was a really.
Speaker 3: Outgoing kid until I turned about six, and then I
Speaker 3: started to get very introspective and introverted, and then I
Speaker 3: struggled at school a bit. I remember wanting to switch schools,
Speaker 3: and when my mum finally.
Speaker 1: Agreed, I literally walked.
Speaker 3: Out of my primary school with my backpack without looking back,
Speaker 3: didn't say goodbye to anyone. I was like good riddance,
Speaker 3: and then I started somewhere else that I really enjoyed.
Speaker 3: But I do remember in high school feeling like I
Speaker 3: was very different from everybody else. All my diary entries
Speaker 3: were like was I born on another planet? Like why
Speaker 3: do I feel like such an alien? And why am
Speaker 3: I so different? And I mean probably every teenage girl
Speaker 3: was writing the same things in their diary, But I
Speaker 3: struggled on and off with feeling a little bit different
Speaker 3: from everybody else and a little bit like I couldn't
Speaker 3: quite find my place.
Speaker 2: And when you were in later high school, you had
Speaker 2: an episode of depression, and you found out that your
Speaker 2: dad and some people in his family had experienced it
Speaker 2: as well. Do you think you could tell that growing up?
Speaker 2: Could you tell that your dad struggled with happiness at all?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: That was the thing that was the thing that shocked me.
Speaker 3: I had this breakdown in year eleven where I literally
Speaker 3: collapsed and they couldn't wake me up, and I had
Speaker 3: to go to hospital. I was semi conscious, so I
Speaker 3: do remember it, which is weird, but I couldn't open
Speaker 3: my eyes.
Speaker 1: I was like locked in my body.
Speaker 3: But I remember having a conversation with him after that, saying,
Speaker 3: think I'm depressed, and depressed or depression back then was
Speaker 3: not a word that everybody used like they did now.
Speaker 3: It was a little bit like it was almost like
Speaker 3: a very medical term, and not many people talked about it.
Speaker 3: And I said that to him, and he was just
Speaker 3: quiet for a bit, and then he said, well, I
Speaker 3: think it's probably about time that I told you that.
Speaker 1: I've had it to.
Speaker 3: My whole adult life, and I've been medicated on and off,
Speaker 3: and it's in our family. Our family have struggled with
Speaker 3: it for generations. And I was so so taken aback
Speaker 3: when he told me that, because he'd always been like
Speaker 3: father Christmas in a way. Dad was just the loveliest, warmest,
Speaker 3: happiest person who was always just so thrilled to see
Speaker 3: his kids every day when he came home from school.
Speaker 3: I remember running up the hallway to meet him and
Speaker 3: hold on to his legs as soon as he came
Speaker 3: in the door. I remember the sound of the garage
Speaker 3: door coming up and his car coming in every day.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So when he told me that, I was really really surprised.
Speaker 3: And it's also the thing of like, oh, my parents
Speaker 3: are humans and they've got a whole inner world. It
Speaker 3: was really the first time that I learned that about him.
Speaker 2: Do you think it connected you to him in a
Speaker 2: different way, understanding like an emotional reality that you haven't seen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, I think so.
Speaker 3: I mean I felt a bit unstable, I think at
Speaker 3: first hearing that, because I was like, well, You're supposed
Speaker 3: to be the rock for me, you know, like you're
Speaker 3: supposed to be the one that has it all together,
Speaker 3: and now do I have to look back at my
Speaker 3: whole childhood and go, oh, my dad was just pretending
Speaker 3: Or there was that whole kind of feeling of like
Speaker 3: being on unstable ground for a bit. But then once
Speaker 3: I thought about it in a much more mature way,
Speaker 3: I realized that now we can talk about it together,
Speaker 3: and now we can kind of support each other like friends.
Speaker 2: You then went on medication, and would you have been
Speaker 2: on medication when you wrote the Sound of White.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been on medication when I've written all of
Speaker 3: my albums, which there's only a very small racket of
Speaker 3: my adult life that I haven't been on medication.
Speaker 2: Which I find I think that's actually quite moving to know,
Speaker 2: because some of the stigma around medication can be that
Speaker 2: it dulls or numbs or emotions. And to me, I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: clearly you have access to the full range of human emotions.
Speaker 2: If you've written such powerful music while on medication, have
Speaker 2: you ever felt that it's dulled or kind of MUTI I.
Speaker 3: Mean, the thing is, it's different for everybody, and some
Speaker 3: people I hear it does do that for them and
Speaker 3: they feel a bit zonked out. But most artistic people
Speaker 3: I know who suffer from depression get so crippled by
Speaker 3: their depression that they can't write and they're in a
Speaker 3: kind of haze or malaise. And that's what I was like,
Speaker 3: if I'm depressed, I can't get out of bed, let alone,
Speaker 3: go and sit at the piano and you know, pour
Speaker 3: my heart out. I don't want to speak to anyone.
Speaker 3: I don't want to express my feeling. I'm sure there
Speaker 3: are people that are different that are like, no, I
Speaker 3: need to be miserable in order to write, But I
Speaker 3: can definitely still be miserable on antidepressants, You're like, don't worry.
Speaker 3: Regularly miserable, but not so miserable that I can't function.
Speaker 3: I've always said, it makes me feel like I can
Speaker 3: get my head just above water in order to breathe,
Speaker 3: and then I can get on with doing the things
Speaker 3: that you need to do in order to fix yourself,
Speaker 3: like exercise and see people and eat well. But if
Speaker 3: I'm not, then I just fall into this hole that
Speaker 3: I can't sink to get myself out of.
Speaker 2: To me, it can feel like I think the biggest
Speaker 2: thing with depression that maybe if you had never experienced
Speaker 2: it you wouldn't know, is that it's about energy. It
Speaker 2: can feel like you just have absolutely no energy, and
Speaker 2: to me, medication can provide just that little bit of
Speaker 2: energy to then get momentum. And once you have momentum,
Speaker 2: it's a lot easier to get out of bed and
Speaker 2: do the things that give you some joy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, it makes me feel like I'm made of concrete. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And I remember in my mid twenties I tried. I
Speaker 3: tried to go off the meds, which I do pretty regularly,
Speaker 3: just to see if I can do it. And it
Speaker 3: works for a while, but then I always end up
Speaker 3: having to go back, but I tried for a couple
Speaker 3: of years to go off them, and I went on
Speaker 3: this massive, big journey of self discovery, reading all these
Speaker 3: wellness books about I don't know. I thought spiritually, I
Speaker 3: must not have just found myself. So I went to
Speaker 3: India and I meditated, and I went to Brazil and
Speaker 3: down the Amazon, and I stayed with you know, an
Speaker 3: inca village of people, and I tried to find myself
Speaker 3: in all these exotic places. But I was actually miserable
Speaker 3: while I was doing it all. I mean, I felt
Speaker 3: everything extremely as I was doing it. I felt extreme
Speaker 3: high as and extreme lows. But it was a very
Speaker 3: hard time, and it was a very unstable time.
Speaker 2: Do you think of yourself in terms of depression? Do
Speaker 2: you think of it as you have depressive episodes or
Speaker 2: do you think there's such thing as a depressive personality?
Speaker 2: Do you see depression as part of who you are
Speaker 2: or distinct from who you are?
Speaker 3: I see it as part of who I am, despite
Speaker 3: not wanting it to be who I am. But I
Speaker 3: think looking at the patterns over the past fourteen fifteen, sorry,
Speaker 3: hang on now, I'm older than that. Twenty four twenty
Speaker 3: five years Jesus Christ. I think the ups and downs
Speaker 3: are part of who I am, and I think I've
Speaker 3: tried to fight it for so long, and I think
Speaker 3: that's probably part of the problem. I think what's helped
Speaker 3: as I've gotten older is realizing that it's just something
Speaker 3: that's going to pass through if I don't fight it
Speaker 3: too much. And also, I think the shame of it
Speaker 3: and the denial of it is what prolongs it. So
Speaker 3: if I just go, oh, God, all right, I'm heading
Speaker 3: into a bit of a dark period, and I kind
Speaker 3: of go easy on myself about that and don't beerate
Speaker 3: myself for it, and let myself stay in bed for
Speaker 3: a while, then it passes through much more quickly than
Speaker 3: if I'm hating myself for being depressed on top of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you released the Sound of White and your profile
Speaker 2: just exploded. You were everywhere, and I imagine to you
Speaker 2: it felt like it was quite quick because you won
Speaker 2: Triple J on Earthed, but then went overseas and then
Speaker 2: came back and everything just went nuts. Did fame feel
Speaker 2: how you expected it to feel?
Speaker 3: To be honest, I'm not sure I ever tried to
Speaker 3: imagine what fame would feel like. Because it happened so
Speaker 3: young and so quickly.
Speaker 2: Were you thinking about as a teenage girl being like,
Speaker 2: but what would it feel like to be famous?
Speaker 1: I don't think I really was.
Speaker 3: All I was thinking about was what would it feel
Speaker 3: like to sing in front of a lot of people?
Speaker 3: Because that's what I wanted to do. I loved performing
Speaker 3: so much. I was like, and I was singing a
Speaker 3: lot of cover songs and jazz songs. I was like,
Speaker 3: what would it feel like to sing in front of
Speaker 3: four hundred people? And because I got such a rush
Speaker 3: from singing in front of a small crowd, I thought,
Speaker 3: imagine if it was a big crowd, how much of
Speaker 3: a rush that would be. But I never thought about
Speaker 3: being famous. So when that happened, it really took me
Speaker 3: by surprise. And I think the fact that I was
Speaker 3: introverted and pretty private that was a hard thing to
Speaker 3: get accustomed to, and it took me many, many years
Speaker 3: to become accustomed to it.
Speaker 2: It was a different kind of fame when your music
Speaker 2: first really hit Australian audiences, I feel like it was
Speaker 2: right now we've got more of like a fractured idea
Speaker 2: of fame because we're all watching different things. We're on
Speaker 2: different platforms. There are people who are famous that I've
Speaker 2: never heard of, and people you might think are famous.
Speaker 2: But in the era where it was you, you were
Speaker 2: a household name, people would just absolutely obsessed with Missy Higgins.
Speaker 2: How did it feel to like walk down the street.
Speaker 2: Is there a sort of self consciousness that comes up
Speaker 2: when you know people know who you are? Yeah.
Speaker 3: I remember seeing a therapist quite a lot back in
Speaker 3: those days and just saying, I'd become so paranoid about
Speaker 3: people recognizing me that I was hearing my name everywhere,
Speaker 3: And because Missy has two s's in it, anytime anyone
Speaker 3: was talking and I could hear the s, I always
Speaker 3: just thought, oh my god, the same Missy, the same Missy.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: So I became kind of hyper aware slash paranoid about it.
Speaker 3: And Yeah, it just made me really anxious. And I
Speaker 3: don't like being looked at or talked about. And I'd
Speaker 3: just come out of a pretty toxic relationship to where
Speaker 3: the guy I was with was really ridiculing me and
Speaker 3: my music and made me feel really horrible about myself.
Speaker 3: So in my mind I was projecting that those people
Speaker 3: were saying really horrible things about me and ridiculing me.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it became really hard to leave the house.
Speaker 3: Paris Hilton was big at the time. She had these
Speaker 3: big black glasses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I bought exact same ones. It was just
Speaker 1: so embarrassing to look back on.
Speaker 3: But I left the house in that and you just
Speaker 3: look so much more like you're a famous face and
Speaker 3: trying to hide behind these glasses. But yeah, I did
Speaker 3: that just not wanting to be noticed. I'm not sure
Speaker 3: it worked.
Speaker 2: So sound of white goes absolutely nuts. Do the people
Speaker 2: that are already in your life, like friends from school
Speaker 2: or acquaintances that you weren't that close to, do people
Speaker 2: behave differently to you? Does it change the nature of
Speaker 2: your relationships?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely.
Speaker 3: I mean I think I'm a pretty good judge of
Speaker 3: character and I always have been, so I remember feeling
Speaker 3: like I can tell the people that are being genuine
Speaker 3: to me because they are genuinely nice people, and the
Speaker 3: people who were you just sick of fanting. But it
Speaker 3: was a strange thing to get used to. I remember
Speaker 3: when I went to America a couple of years later,
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 1: Like, oh my god, people are being rude to me.
Speaker 1: It's awesome.
Speaker 3: It was this like there was this authentic interaction that
Speaker 3: I was having with people for the first time in
Speaker 3: so long that it was kind of jarring at first,
Speaker 3: but then refreshing because.
Speaker 2: People in the industry or like social.
Speaker 1: Interactions literally, you know, at the corner store.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Americans can be rude.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't.
Speaker 3: It wasn't really that they were being rude. It was
Speaker 3: a normal interaction. They didn't give a shit about me,
Speaker 3: because why would you. I'm just a customer. But I
Speaker 3: was used to people going.
Speaker 1: Oh, hello, yes, what can I do to help you,
Speaker 1: which is pretty strange for that to start happening all
Speaker 1: of a sudden when you're just a nobody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think you develop an ego?
Speaker 3: I didn't because I thought that they were all a
Speaker 3: bit weird for doing that. Like I just thought that
Speaker 3: those people must have an issue. There must be something
Speaker 3: wrong with those people if they're being around me. And
Speaker 3: also they just felt like such a distinction and a
Speaker 3: separation between the Missy Higgins that they thought I was
Speaker 3: and the Missy Higgins I knew that I was.
Speaker 1: It was like they were looking at this.
Speaker 3: Mirage that was superimposed over my face when they were
Speaker 3: looking at me.
Speaker 2: Which is probably a really healthy way to look at fame.
Speaker 2: Like that's probably if someone were to analyze it, it
Speaker 2: is that idea of like there's the actual you and
Speaker 2: there's a projection of you, and that projection has nothing
Speaker 2: to do with who you actually are.
Speaker 1: I think it's probably good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can't remember anybody ever saying anything negative
Speaker 2: about miss Higgins in that era, and I can remember
Speaker 2: all the media coverage being really really positive. But I
Speaker 2: can imagine that the Internet was kind of around, and
Speaker 2: I can imagine that there would have been things that
Speaker 2: weren't that nice. How did you take that on? And
Speaker 2: were you able to separate yourself from what people were
Speaker 2: saying about you?
Speaker 3: Well, that's the kind of ironic thing, is that I
Speaker 3: didn't take on any of the nice things. But yeah,
Speaker 3: whenever I heard anything negative, it was like I couldn't
Speaker 3: sleep for days and it was all that I could
Speaker 3: think about. And I still remember the negative things that
Speaker 3: were said about me.
Speaker 2: What do people say?
Speaker 3: Well, I remember the early days of Internet. There were forums,
Speaker 3: like I guess there's forums now on Reddit and stuff
Speaker 3: was when I read it.
Speaker 1: Back then, there was.
Speaker 3: Like specific websites that were set up as fan forums,
Speaker 3: and I had one, and in that website there was
Speaker 3: like different categories of Miss Higgins that you could talk
Speaker 3: about and dissect, and I had I think it was
Speaker 3: maybe my second album ish where I had changed my
Speaker 3: live band, I'd swapped some of the musicians out to
Speaker 3: be different players. And my hardcore fans that felt this
Speaker 3: sense of ownership because they'd been with me since the beginning,
Speaker 3: since before the Sound of White, they would not stand
Speaker 3: for it. They just thought I'd changed, and they were
Speaker 3: picking apart the way that I spoke to the audience
Speaker 3: and how I sounded up myself, just the fact that
Speaker 3: I had dared to evolve without consulting them first. They
Speaker 3: were just livid and they were just tearing me apart.
Speaker 3: And I remember I literally didn't leave the house for
Speaker 3: two days after that. I just fell into such a
Speaker 3: deep depression. And yeah, it wasn't that long after that
Speaker 3: where I had a talk with my manager about it,
Speaker 3: and he's just like, you just can't read that stuff.
Speaker 3: And I don't think I've googled myself since really, yeah,
Speaker 3: in over twenty years, I just will not look up myself.
Speaker 1: I don't want to read reviews.
Speaker 3: I don't want to read articles unless somebody literally sends
Speaker 3: me at going, this is very flattering. You should read
Speaker 3: this about yourself. I'm not going to do it because
Speaker 3: I'm just too sensitive. I think I just take too
Speaker 3: much of it on board.
Speaker 2: Do you ever come across stuff accidentally or.
Speaker 1: Like comm comments?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely, but I tried. They don't happen very
Speaker 3: much on Instagram. I find I don't ever look on
Speaker 3: Facebook because the algorithm means that people that aren't following
Speaker 3: me can see it, which means that there's always going
Speaker 3: to people that don't like what I'm doing. I definitely
Speaker 3: don't go on Twitter because that's a fucking binfire.
Speaker 2: I one should go on Twitter, ever.
Speaker 3: And so I've found that because people following me, they're
Speaker 3: usually pretty supportive on Instagram.
Speaker 2: What's the kind of stuff that I find that when
Speaker 2: you're kind of doing anything creative, there's certain things people
Speaker 2: can say that just doesn't affect you. You're like, okay, cool,
Speaker 2: I'm not for you. That's all good, But then there
Speaker 2: are certain things that really do cut through. And what
Speaker 2: you say about the band was the thing that was
Speaker 2: upsetting the fact that people were like assuming your intention
Speaker 2: or assuming the fact that you thought you were too
Speaker 2: good or what like? What was it about that that
Speaker 2: was hurtful?
Speaker 3: I think at that point in my career, I was
Speaker 3: starting to get a bit jaded, because I was feeling
Speaker 3: very scrutiny and very judged at that point because so
Speaker 3: many people were having opinions about me and my image
Speaker 3: and my sexuality and just wanting to know way too
Speaker 3: much about me. I was already in this state of
Speaker 3: defense the entire time, and so I do remember that
Speaker 3: show in particular that they commented on I was feeling
Speaker 3: a bit like, maybe a bit resentful, and I think
Speaker 3: that was probably coming through I wasn't in a great place,
Speaker 3: and so then writing that not only validated my kind
Speaker 3: of fear of being torn apart publicly, but it also
Speaker 3: made me realize that there was probably a truth to it,
Speaker 3: because I wasn't being my best and I was a
Speaker 3: little bit resentful towards the audience, and I don't know,
Speaker 3: I didn't really know what to do about that.
Speaker 1: I was in a kind of a bit of a
Speaker 1: loop feedback loop.
Speaker 2: When you are incredibly successful, money often follows did money
Speaker 2: change your lif life? From your music and you're touring
Speaker 2: around America. I can imagine you had more money than
Speaker 2: other people your age who you might have grown up with.
Speaker 2: Did it make you happy?
Speaker 3: I do remember getting a big check. I think it
Speaker 3: was maybe about a year after the Sound of White
Speaker 3: came out, and I was like, I could buy a
Speaker 3: house and I'm twenty one. Oh, and it was this real,
Speaker 3: like oh my god, what has happened to my life
Speaker 3: kind of thing. But I was also on this, you know,
Speaker 3: I was still riding the roller coaster of how the
Speaker 3: hell am I at this point at such a young
Speaker 3: age and successful album and famous and all that kind
Speaker 3: of stuff.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I was pretty stoked.
Speaker 3: I think the fact that I had managed to make
Speaker 3: a career out of music when my dad had always
Speaker 3: told me, he was always supportive of it. He always said,
Speaker 3: you need to get a UNI degree. At the very least,
Speaker 3: go and get an arts degree so you have something
Speaker 3: to fall back on, you know, if you're going to
Speaker 3: do music, kind of implying that it's almost impossible to
Speaker 3: make a career out of music.
Speaker 1: And then when that happened, I was like, I think
Speaker 1: I've done it.
Speaker 3: I think that this means that I can probably keep
Speaker 3: doing it for the rest of my life, so it
Speaker 3: kind of, yeah, it felt extremely gratifying that I could
Speaker 3: relax about having to get a back up job or
Speaker 3: have a backup plan.
Speaker 2: Did you spend it on exciting things like when you're twenty?
Speaker 2: I can't imagine having access to any kind of I
Speaker 2: bought a house.
Speaker 1: I put a down payment on a house.
Speaker 2: I should say, oh my gosh, not even stupid clothes
Speaker 2: or anything like that.
Speaker 3: No. I was never a closed person, That's the thing.
Speaker 3: I was never a things person. But I bought a
Speaker 3: little unit and my sister and I moved into it
Speaker 3: and it was just the best feeling ever.
Speaker 2: After the break, Missy opens up about how grief and
Speaker 2: shame inspired her new album and why her music holds
Speaker 2: so much significance to her. I have a theory that
Speaker 2: the world lies to us a bit about happiness, and
Speaker 2: sometimes it's those moments that are really shiny and exciting
Speaker 2: from the outside that actually aren't on the inside. And
Speaker 2: kind of the way we live now, especially on social media,
Speaker 2: where people are flattened to two dimensional images, it kind
Speaker 2: of exacerbates that. Do you have an example of a
Speaker 2: time where the world would have thought you were happy
Speaker 2: and you weren't well.
Speaker 3: I guess it's tricky with me because most of my
Speaker 3: songs are miserable. So I don't know if anyone thinks
Speaker 3: that I'm happy but you're it's probably the opposite for me.
Speaker 3: People think I'm miserable, but I'm actually most of the
Speaker 3: time quite a happy person.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean, like I was talking about before, in the
Speaker 3: early days in my early twenties, with those first couple
Speaker 3: of albums, when I was touring America, I did so
Speaker 3: many shows in the space of a year. I think
Speaker 3: that I completely burnt myself out. But I was finally
Speaker 3: getting somewhere over there, Like I went gold with my
Speaker 3: second album, and that was something that I'd been building
Speaker 3: up for. I'd been doing so many shows, I've been
Speaker 3: working so hard for it, and everybody at the record
Speaker 3: label was applauding it, and it's like, let's use this
Speaker 3: as a springboard for the next album. And it got
Speaker 3: to that point I was like, Nah, sorry, I can't
Speaker 3: do another album. I'm completely burnt out. I've been touring
Speaker 3: for so long that I have nothing to write about
Speaker 3: apart from touring the road. How many songs can you
Speaker 3: write about wheels on the road? Two of us is Yeah,
Speaker 3: I hadn't had any relationships and had no breakups to
Speaker 3: write about. I felt like I'd been in this yeah,
Speaker 3: this weird loop for at least two and a half
Speaker 3: years touring that album, and I had to give it
Speaker 3: all up.
Speaker 1: I tried writing. I tried for two years to write
Speaker 1: for my third album. Thing came.
Speaker 3: I remember hiring this tiny little room above a flower
Speaker 3: shop in Northcote in Melbourne and going there every day
Speaker 3: thinking I was nick Cave with my briefcase and my suit,
Speaker 3: treating it like a job, treating it like a nine
Speaker 3: to five, and it still didn't work. And after two
Speaker 3: years of that, I just I took my manager out
Speaker 3: for lunch and I told him that I had just
Speaker 3: nothing left.
Speaker 1: I couldn't write. I was miserable.
Speaker 3: Yes, I'd reached a level of success in Australia and
Speaker 3: America that you know, I could have only dreamed of,
Speaker 3: but I wasn't happy.
Speaker 2: Do you think the success was paralyzing like when you
Speaker 2: were trying to write and you couldn't. Was it that
Speaker 2: you felt like you had nothing to write about? Or
Speaker 2: was it that you were aware that whatever you wrote
Speaker 2: would be heard by so many people? And there was
Speaker 2: pressure on it in a way.
Speaker 3: That Yeah, I think I felt very scrutinized from every direction,
Speaker 3: like in my personal life and with my music. There
Speaker 3: was a massive amount of pressure to back that up
Speaker 3: with another successful album. But I think it probably came
Speaker 3: down to the fact that I just I didn't enjoy
Speaker 3: what I did anymore, Like I didn't enjoy playing live
Speaker 3: shows anymore because of the fact that I had been
Speaker 3: doing it for too long without a break. You know,
Speaker 3: if you do anything for too long without a break,
Speaker 3: you don't appreciate it. And all I really needed to
Speaker 3: do was to find a better balance, I think, but
Speaker 3: I'd gone too hard and I hadn't said no to anything,
Speaker 3: like whatever the US record label wanted me to do,
Speaker 3: I'd said yes too. It was too much. I wasn't
Speaker 3: listening to myself at that point. I think I didn't
Speaker 3: have any idea how to tune into my mental health
Speaker 3: and go, hey, you probably need to just step back
Speaker 3: for a bit because you're getting a bit burnt out.
Speaker 3: It was like, no, you're burnt out, but you got
Speaker 3: to keep going because this is the business. You're in
Speaker 3: the business now, and there's a massive label that is
Speaker 3: writing on this album being successful. So I think I
Speaker 3: just became part of a huge machine and it just
Speaker 3: started to feel very gross and impersonal and it sucked
Speaker 3: all of the love out of music for me.
Speaker 2: You've said that you also worried that music was selfish
Speaker 2: and you weren't contributing enough to the world. It's funny
Speaker 2: you're not the first musician, Like we've had another musician
Speaker 2: on this show who said that, And I think it's
Speaker 2: interesting that musicians say it because I think there's like
Speaker 2: an emotional intelligence slash depth that makes you constantly question
Speaker 2: your place in the world. Whereas I think it's funny.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of say influences aren't questioning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm very influential. I must be effectively the world positively.
Speaker 2: But it's interesting that you do kind of grapple with that,
Speaker 2: like have a crisis of meaning and you went and
Speaker 2: tried to do other things. It came back to music,
Speaker 2: and it was a bit of a weird like the
Speaker 2: universe was directing you back to music. With Sarah McLaughlan
Speaker 2: and the opportunity you got in terms of music and
Speaker 2: whether it's selfish, How do you feel about that now?
Speaker 3: I feel like yes, it's selfish, but that's completely okay,
Speaker 3: and ultimately that's kind of what helps people the most.
Speaker 3: Meaning if you write music from a completely selfish place,
Speaker 3: it has a better chance of really hitting home for
Speaker 3: somebody because you're not trying to make anything that sells.
Speaker 3: You're not trying to make something that as many people
Speaker 3: as possible can relate to. You're just being honest, and
Speaker 3: honest is the thing that cuts through, and authenticity is
Speaker 3: the thing that people need most. And if ever I'm
Speaker 3: going through something really really difficult and I find a
Speaker 3: way to put it into words, if someone can hear
Speaker 3: that song and feel not so alone in whatever they're
Speaker 3: going through, then that's great. So I think it's okay
Speaker 3: to be selfish. But I think it's also important to
Speaker 3: realize that art is what the world needs most, an honest,
Speaker 3: authentic art where people are not putting under pretense of
Speaker 3: I've got it all sorted out and I'm really strong
Speaker 3: and powerful and wise, and this is how you should
Speaker 3: live your life. You know, I don't want to tell
Speaker 3: anybody how to live their life. I think that would
Speaker 3: be really disingenuous because I have no idea. So I'm
Speaker 3: not going to pretend. The more people that do that,
Speaker 3: I think the better the more people that stop pretending
Speaker 3: and just go.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, how hard is life like? This life thing?
Speaker 3: It's really bloody hard, guys that you agree, Yeah, And
Speaker 3: with this new album, I just I didn't think about
Speaker 3: an audience. I sat down because I was really really
Speaker 3: trying to grapple with the fact my marriage had fallen
Speaker 3: apart and all I ever wanted was to find someone
Speaker 3: to be with forever and stay as a family unit forever.
Speaker 3: And I felt like such a failure for that not happening,
Speaker 3: and I felt like it was my responsibility to keep
Speaker 3: the family together. And somehow along the way I'd made
Speaker 3: really bad decisions or I'd not been strong enough, or
Speaker 3: something like that, and so I was dealing with so
Speaker 3: much shame. And as soon as I sat down at
Speaker 3: the piano, the first line I sung, it was never
Speaker 3: meant to be like this, It was never meant to
Speaker 3: be like this, And I just sang that line over
Speaker 3: and over again and cried because it just opened up
Speaker 3: something in me, and I realized, oh, that's it for me.
Speaker 3: The biggest tragedy here is that my narrative that I
Speaker 3: had for myself has burnt to the ground, and now
Speaker 3: I have no narrative and I feel completely lost. And
Speaker 3: as I kept writing every song, something else in me
Speaker 3: opened up, and I realized something else about my shame
Speaker 3: or my grief, and I tackled it from a different
Speaker 3: ang and it helped me so much. And now that
Speaker 3: I've released it and I've played these songs live, I
Speaker 3: can feel that they connect with other people that are
Speaker 3: going through exactly the same thing. But that wasn't what
Speaker 3: I intended when I sat down to write it. I
Speaker 3: think if I had sat down and thought, how am
Speaker 3: I going to help people that are going through the
Speaker 3: same thing as me, I would have probably written a
Speaker 3: song full of these fake answers that I didn't have,
Speaker 3: and that would have people wouldn't have felt the power
Speaker 3: in them. I don't think they wouldn't have felt the
Speaker 3: songs deep in their heart because they would have known
Speaker 3: that it wasn't authentically in my story.
Speaker 2: It feels that your album The Second Act almost feels
Speaker 2: like uncharted territory artistically, which seems so bizarre when we
Speaker 2: know that a huge number of women who are in
Speaker 2: their thirties, forties fifty sixty marriages have ended. Why do
Speaker 2: you think there's such shame? Why do you think you
Speaker 2: felt such shame?
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I know it has something to
Speaker 3: do with being a woman and feeling like it's our
Speaker 3: responsibility to make sure everyone is okay and keep everyone together,
Speaker 3: keep everyone happy. I definitely felt like I was the
Speaker 3: one that should have tried harder to make it work,
Speaker 3: and somehow I failed to give my kids the family
Speaker 3: that I.
Speaker 1: Grew up with.
Speaker 3: And as far as why people haven't written songs about
Speaker 3: it before, I don't really know. I think I do
Speaker 3: feel like there is that pressure as a songwriter and
Speaker 3: as an artist to come up with songs that do
Speaker 3: sound more empowered. As a woman, I think there's that
Speaker 3: vulnerability and fragility that you don't really want to admit to,
Speaker 3: and I think in the back of your head, you're like,
Speaker 3: no one wants to hear how miserable I am, and
Speaker 3: no one wants to hear about divorce. No one wants
Speaker 3: to hear about being a forty year old single mum.
Speaker 3: Like it's not sexy. The radios aren't going to play this.
Speaker 3: But I guess I'm privileged to be at a point
Speaker 3: in my career where one nobody plays me on the
Speaker 3: radio anyway, but I don't need that because.
Speaker 2: Who listens to the radio anyone?
Speaker 3: Sorry, But I mean, I just think that I feel
Speaker 3: really lucky to have a fan base that have followed
Speaker 3: me through my whole career and still want to hear
Speaker 3: what I have to say and what I put out.
Speaker 3: So I don't know, I think I felt like I
Speaker 3: didn't have to cater to anybody because I'm comfortable. I
Speaker 3: don't need to sell too many units in order to
Speaker 3: kind of put food on my kid's table. I can
Speaker 3: just write what I want at this point in my life,
Speaker 3: and I feel like I probably have enough validation and
Speaker 3: enough confidence in myself as an artist. I have enough
Speaker 3: fans that have followed me my whole career that I
Speaker 3: trust that they'll be there for this one. And I know,
Speaker 3: I know that there's going to be so many people
Speaker 3: that relate to it, because, as you said, it's it's
Speaker 3: non original thing.
Speaker 2: And it is. I said at the beginning of this
Speaker 2: that for me, you've been this, you know, soundtrack to
Speaker 2: my life, and it's eerie how much what you write
Speaker 2: about has always mirrored where I am, and that is
Speaker 2: not unique to me, that is why you're so incredibly successful.
Speaker 2: But I have friends who say, if you think your
Speaker 2: relationship is good, have a child, and it's like putting
Speaker 2: it into a blender. That's how she describes it, that
Speaker 2: the first year after having a childhood's like putting a
Speaker 2: relationship into a blender. How have you gone about thinking
Speaker 2: about happiness and making decisions? Like the decision to separate?
Speaker 2: Was that about prioritizing your happiness?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all it was about.
Speaker 3: I mean my happiness and my partner's happiness. We were
Speaker 3: both miserable and had been for a while, and we
Speaker 3: just looked at each other and went It started off
Speaker 3: with I think that we should live in separate houses,
Speaker 3: and then that kind of slowly progressed to well, I
Speaker 3: mean we're living in separate houses. We're pretty much separated,
Speaker 3: and yeah, throwing kids into the mix. I think what's
Speaker 3: tricky about having kids with somebody is you have no
Speaker 3: idea what the other person's going to be like, has.
Speaker 2: No idea, You have no idea. You think that you do.
Speaker 1: You think you're like, they're a really good person. They're
Speaker 1: crying with kids.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I'm not saying that to say my
Speaker 3: partner's a bad dad because he's an excellent dad, But
Speaker 3: you have to have the same parenting style as that
Speaker 3: person as well, And depending on how you grew up,
Speaker 3: how you were parented, you're going to have different ideas
Speaker 3: of discipline, what to do when a child's kind of
Speaker 3: loud and messy and chaotic, and how to handle that.
Speaker 1: And I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think in the end, we just went, is this
Speaker 3: going to be easier if we're not in same house together, Like,
Speaker 3: if we can do this on our own, separately, And
Speaker 3: ultimately that's going to be better for the kids because
Speaker 3: it's going to make happier parents and it's going to
Speaker 3: make calmer parents. And what they need is as much
Speaker 3: stability as we can possibly give them. And we realized
Speaker 3: that it's going to make for a much more stable
Speaker 3: vibe at home if we can do it separately.
Speaker 2: One of the songs on your album is called Blue
Speaker 2: Velvet Dress, and it's about you performing on New Year's
Speaker 2: Eve and it's kind of that tension between how things
Speaker 2: look on the outside and what was going on behind
Speaker 2: the scenes. Can you tell us the story of what
Speaker 2: was happening that night when you're performing?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so him and I had broken up that day,
Speaker 3: and I was set to perform at the ABC New
Speaker 3: Year's Eve broadcast in twenty twenty one. I'd also been
Speaker 3: sick and kind of isolating in a hotel room for
Speaker 3: the past two days, so it was really intense. You know,
Speaker 3: these were COVID days. I remember thinking, I have to
Speaker 3: get up in front of millions of people on live
Speaker 3: television and sing and put on a brave face.
Speaker 1: And I didn't know how I was going to do it.
Speaker 1: I'd been crying all day.
Speaker 3: And I put on my blue velvet dress and I
Speaker 3: got up there and I did it, and I smiled
Speaker 3: and I did my best acting job ever.
Speaker 1: And I don't know. It was bizarre, because in a way,
Speaker 1: it was actually.
Speaker 3: A really good excuse to forget about what had been happening,
Speaker 3: because I had no choice. I was like, you're in
Speaker 3: performance mode now, don't think about it. So I didn't
Speaker 3: for those ten minutes that I was on stage.
Speaker 1: And then when I.
Speaker 3: Got off, the fireworks started over the Sydney huber Ridge
Speaker 3: and the girls in my band and I just all
Speaker 3: held each other and looked up at the fireworks and cried,
Speaker 3: or I cried, and they held me, and it was
Speaker 3: kind of an amazing feeling because I was so miserable.
Speaker 3: But I was also watching these fireworks, going it's a
Speaker 3: new year, it's a new year, and it's a new chapter,
Speaker 3: and my life will never be the same again. And
Speaker 3: it was terrifying and a little bit exhilarating at the
Speaker 3: same time and just really really intense. But I wanted
Speaker 3: to write a song about that night because I just thought,
Speaker 3: what a crazy way to separate from somebody on news,
Speaker 3: even live television. So I write a song called Blue
Speaker 3: Velvet Dress, and the dress ended up being kind of
Speaker 3: a metaphor for my old self.
Speaker 2: I think that is such a powerful example of how
Speaker 2: you never know what someone's going through, Like you would
Speaker 2: have anybody in the audience, anybody watching, would have seen
Speaker 2: you performing and thought that someone who has it all together,
Speaker 2: because you're brilliant every time you perform, and the dress
Speaker 2: is beautiful, and they would have just thought that everything
Speaker 2: was completely fine and not had any idea of that
Speaker 2: private pain. Now that it's been a few years, do
Speaker 2: you feel like the separation has opened up a new
Speaker 2: path for you? Obviously the album there's a lot of
Speaker 2: sadness and there's a lot of complex emotions that need
Speaker 2: to be processed. But can you see the way forward
Speaker 2: and how it's opened the door for happiness.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I don't know if it's opened the
Speaker 3: door for happiness. I think my happiness and sense of
Speaker 3: mental well being is always going to be a process,
Speaker 3: and I'm always going to be someone that's hyper sensitive
Speaker 3: to the world and everything going on around me. But
Speaker 3: that's something I've come to accept and I've come to
Speaker 3: realize that it's probably why I'm good at writing songs,
Speaker 3: because I just I take everything in and I feel
Speaker 3: things very very strongly. But I feel like I'm in
Speaker 3: a really good place right now. I think that the
Speaker 3: it's been enough distance from the separation, and I've processed
Speaker 3: a lot of things through this album, through writing these
Speaker 3: songs and to be honest, performing them live like I
Speaker 3: did forty shows, singing at least five songs from the
Speaker 3: new album every night and telling pretty honest anecdotes in between,
Speaker 3: and that was so therapeutic, Like I've really felt a
Speaker 3: sense of solidarity between me and the audience, and I
Speaker 3: really felt them with me every step of the way,
Speaker 3: and getting off stage and having told my story and
Speaker 3: having laughed about the fact that I'm kind of miserable,
Speaker 3: I was like, guys, I'm in it. I'm singing to
Speaker 3: you live broadcasting from the mess that I'm in. I
Speaker 3: don't have any answers, and I am struggling, but I'm
Speaker 3: really glad to be here with you today and singing
Speaker 3: these songs, and my love's going out to anyone else
Speaker 3: going through it.
Speaker 2: Do you think it is happiness or do you think
Speaker 2: it's something else? Like do you think that maybe it's
Speaker 2: not happiness you're pursuing, it's like clarity or meaning, or
Speaker 2: like something bigger than happiness.
Speaker 3: I think, more than anything, if I'm really honest with myself,
Speaker 3: I think that I want to be known. I want
Speaker 3: to be really known and understood because I think that
Speaker 3: everybody is such a complex person and you only show
Speaker 3: people little tidbits here and there, and to be really
Speaker 3: known and to be loved for exactly who you are,
Speaker 3: I think that that's what I want more than anything,
Speaker 3: and I have that with my friends and my family.
Speaker 3: So I think intimacy and connection is what I cherish
Speaker 3: the most.
Speaker 1: So if I have that.
Speaker 3: As well as a sense of meaning and purpose, as
Speaker 3: long as I'm doing what I feel like I was
Speaker 3: meant to do and what I'm good at, and it's
Speaker 3: helping people in any sort of way. I feel like
Speaker 3: that's a really, really satisfying feeling to know that I'm
Speaker 3: doing I'm doing the thing that I was meant to do.
Speaker 1: I don't know about happiness. I do like being happy.
Speaker 3: It happens ocasion, but I think, yeah, a sense of
Speaker 3: purpose and meaning and connection is probably more.
Speaker 1: Important to me.
Speaker 2: More of my conversation with Missy Higgins after this short break.
Speaker 2: Speaking of meaning and connection, you have a song called
Speaker 2: Song for Sammy that my sister and I have shared
Speaker 2: with each other, and we say that it makes us
Speaker 2: vomit with emotion. It is the best representation of how
Speaker 2: it feels to be a parent. It's just it's so
Speaker 2: beautiful and also sad, and also the idea of the nightmare.
Speaker 2: What do your kids bring to you?
Speaker 3: My kids definitely bring to me a sense of purpose
Speaker 3: and meaning, probably more than anything else. But I don't
Speaker 3: want to rely on them as my soul as the
Speaker 3: sole giver of meaning in my life or the things
Speaker 3: that are going to make me feel.
Speaker 1: Appreciated or loved. They definitely make me feel loved.
Speaker 3: But I think it can be tough being a parent,
Speaker 3: and particularly a single parent, because you know, there's a
Speaker 3: lot of demands and bad moods that you have to
Speaker 3: cop the brunt of, and a lot of my self
Speaker 3: narrative is going, don't take it personally, Missy. They're dispending,
Speaker 3: they're dispanding, they don't really hate you, and you're not
Speaker 3: really ruining their life. So it's like you really do
Speaker 3: need to get gratification outside of your parenting.
Speaker 1: I think that that's very healthy.
Speaker 3: But I know that I am I'm their rock, and
Speaker 3: that gives me a sense of purpose. The fact that
Speaker 3: I'm consisting distantly there for them. I'm consistently loving and
Speaker 3: supporting of them, or at least I try to be.
Speaker 3: I think that that gives me a sense of meaning,
Speaker 3: probably more than anything else. I don't know, maybe probably
Speaker 3: equal to music, though, to be honest, at this point
Speaker 3: in my life, I really get so much gratification out
Speaker 3: of what I do.
Speaker 1: I think because I've been through.
Speaker 3: That whole existential crisis in my twenties about whether what
Speaker 3: I do has any meaning or makes any difference.
Speaker 1: I've been through that.
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm back to music now with a
Speaker 3: renewed sense of gratitude, and I know that what I
Speaker 3: do makes.
Speaker 1: An impact, even if it's small, it does make an impact.
Speaker 1: And that's enough.
Speaker 3: That's enough for me, and that's more than you can
Speaker 3: really ask for in life. So yeah, music and parenting,
Speaker 3: I think are the things that give me the most
Speaker 3: sense of fulfillment.
Speaker 2: Has been a mum changed the way you look at
Speaker 2: the world.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, how could it not.
Speaker 3: It changes your entire being, although I think that it
Speaker 3: really changes when they get older. I think I was
Speaker 3: very consumed with being a parent for the first I
Speaker 3: don't know, maybe six years or so, maybe longer, and
Speaker 3: just now I'm getting to the point where I'm like,
Speaker 3: I can see myself again when I look in the mirror,
Speaker 3: Like I don't just see a mother of my kids,
Speaker 3: I see myself. Maybe it's because i'm single again too.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm on the mine.
Speaker 3: But I'm also really remembering who I was before I
Speaker 3: was a parent, And that's kind of a relief, because
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that this is probably what needs
Speaker 3: to happen. You do need to be so consumed by
Speaker 3: your kids in the early years because they need you
Speaker 3: so badly. But once they start getting a little bit
Speaker 3: more independent, you start having to loosen your grip on
Speaker 3: them again, which is healthy and I imagine keeps happening.
Speaker 1: Until leave home more and more.
Speaker 3: But I feel like it's loosened up a little bit
Speaker 3: enough now that I'm like, Okay, so what do I
Speaker 3: like to do again, and what do I want to
Speaker 3: do with my free time?
Speaker 1: And who am I?
Speaker 3: And you know, starting to look at myself again as
Speaker 3: an individual person rather than constantly tethered to my two
Speaker 3: little offspring.
Speaker 2: When you think about being an old woman, I'm looking
Speaker 2: back at your life, what do you think it will
Speaker 2: be that will have made you happy?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: What gives you the perspective when you're kind of really
Speaker 2: in the grind of day to day life and you
Speaker 2: take second to zoom out, what do you think it
Speaker 2: will be that gave you a happy life?
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a cliche, but family and friends. It's
Speaker 3: always those moments of connection and communion with people that
Speaker 3: I love that really know me. I guess because over
Speaker 3: my life there's been a lot of people that have
Speaker 3: come and gone, but my friends who know me for
Speaker 3: who I am behind the scenes, not as Missy Higgins.
Speaker 3: But just you know, Missy, they're really dear to me,
Speaker 3: and they're really important to me, And you know, I
Speaker 3: think I'll remember specific occasions where we've all gone away
Speaker 3: together or all stayed up late talking. I love the
Speaker 3: girls in my band, the girls that we tour with.
Speaker 3: I have a really really special connection with them because
Speaker 3: we go through this crazy thing together that not many
Speaker 3: people can relate to. But when I look back on
Speaker 3: my life, I think they're the moments that I'll cherish.
Speaker 3: And seeing my kids emerge, you know, into the human
Speaker 3: beings that they were always going to become, My family
Speaker 3: and my friends, those kind of moments I reckon. I
Speaker 3: don't think I'll remember any of arias that I won,
Speaker 3: or you know, any of the famous people that I
Speaker 3: met along the way. I don't think they're going to
Speaker 3: be the things that I look back on and go, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's what made me happy. I think it's going to
Speaker 3: be those moments of real connection and understanding.
Speaker 2: What would you say is your biggest challenge to happiness
Speaker 2: at the moment.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good question.
Speaker 3: I mean, I am my own worst enemy when it
Speaker 3: comes to self criticism.
Speaker 1: I think I overthink everything.
Speaker 2: What do you tend to beat yourself up about? Like,
Speaker 2: surely not music.
Speaker 3: I know I'm very very proud of myself at the
Speaker 3: moment for this new album. I think it's the best
Speaker 3: thing I've ever done. But I guess in general, I
Speaker 3: tend to just talk back to myself and go, you
Speaker 3: need to do more, you need to be better, you
Speaker 3: need to be this or that I have. I'm possibly
Speaker 3: high standards for myself, so I'm always self critical. I
Speaker 3: think that that's part of the reason why I've got
Speaker 3: where I am, because I do hold myself to a
Speaker 3: very high standard. But it can also make for a
Speaker 3: not very nice little narrative that goes on in my
Speaker 3: head when I'm laying in bed at night. I'm a
Speaker 3: real introvert, so I find that it's easy for me
Speaker 3: to push people away because I just need time by myself.
Speaker 3: Like there's a friend of mine at the moment who
Speaker 3: can't quite understand that when I'm going through a hard time,
Speaker 3: that I won't let her be there for.
Speaker 1: Me, And I'm like, I really really love the.
Speaker 3: Fact that you want to be there for me, but
Speaker 3: I process things in a different way to you, Like
Speaker 3: I honestly don't want to talk it out, and I
Speaker 3: don't think it would be good for me because it
Speaker 3: drains me and I really just need to spend time
Speaker 3: by myself, be with my kids. I'll process this in
Speaker 3: my own time. I'm not just saying that I want
Speaker 3: to be alone. I really actually I do want to
Speaker 3: be alone and I need to be so I think
Speaker 3: that that can be a little bit hard and sometimes
Speaker 3: can alienate me a little bit from my friends. So
Speaker 3: it's like finding a balance between keeping my friends in
Speaker 3: my life and making sure that they know that I'm
Speaker 3: important to them, but trying to make them understand that
Speaker 3: I operate in a bit of a different way and
Speaker 3: that I need to be a bit of a hermit sometimes.
Speaker 2: Right now, you've got this album. You've been through really
Speaker 2: challenging a few years, where you've talked about the fact
Speaker 2: that you didn't think this was the direction that your
Speaker 2: life was going to go in. But right now, are
Speaker 2: you happy?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I'm very happy at the moment. Yeah, I can honestly
Speaker 3: say that. I mean I wasn't at the beginning of
Speaker 3: this tour. During rehearsals, I was bulling my eyes out
Speaker 3: while playing these songs, going I don't know how I'm
Speaker 3: going to get through this, but I think the cathartism
Speaker 3: of playing these songs every night and talking to the
Speaker 3: audience about what I've been going through and probably just time,
Speaker 3: you know, like heartbreak takes time. I feel like I'm
Speaker 3: in a really good place right now where I don't
Speaker 3: feel like I need anybody else to fulfill me. And
Speaker 3: that's taken quite a long time to get to this
Speaker 3: point because I guess it's so much part of our
Speaker 3: cultural narrative that in order to have a successful life
Speaker 3: you need to team up with somebody else and make
Speaker 3: a vow and be in it together. And people are
Speaker 3: always looking at you like, oh you lonely. But I
Speaker 3: feel really fulfilled. I feel really fulfilled with my music,
Speaker 3: and I feel fulfilled with being able to just really
Speaker 3: concentrate on my kids and spend some very very quality
Speaker 3: time with them and being surrounded by my friends and
Speaker 3: family unless I'm feeling introverted to in which case they've.
Speaker 2: Got a better off go away. Thank you so much
Speaker 2: for your time today. I really appreciate it, no worries.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: Something that has always struck me about Missy Higgins is
Speaker 2: that there's an integrity and a depth there where she
Speaker 2: seems to be able to see through superficial distractions. She
Speaker 2: knows what's important and what isn't and I really want
Speaker 2: that for myself. For more from Missy, go and listen
Speaker 2: to her brand new album, The Second Act, and you
Speaker 2: can find dates for her final encore shows on her website.
Speaker 2: I want to thank Missy Higgins for her vulnerability, and
Speaker 2: if there's anyone you know who you think might get
Speaker 2: something out of this conversation, please share it with them.
Speaker 2: If you want to recommend anyone for the show, you
Speaker 2: can message me on Instagram, and if you like the show,
Speaker 2: leave us a review. We always love your feedback. On
Speaker 2: next week's episode, I chat to an athlete who was
Speaker 2: recently at the paras Olympics and who caught my attention
Speaker 2: because he lost, and he was incredibly candid about what
Speaker 2: that experience was like, and I wanted to talk to
Speaker 2: him about failure and how it feels to work towards
Speaker 2: a goal for your entire adult life and then not
Speaker 2: achieve it and know that you can't really go back
Speaker 2: and redo it. It's a really, really moving conversation and
Speaker 2: I hope you'll join us. The executive producer of But
Speaker 2: Are You Happy is Nama Brown, and the producer is
Speaker 2: Charlie Blackman. Audio editing by Scott Stronik. And I'm your
Speaker 2: host Claire Stevens.