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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and

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Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Somehow along the way, I'd made really bad decisions, or

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Speaker 3: I'd not been strong enough, or something like that, and

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Speaker 3: so I was dealing with so much shame. And as

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Speaker 3: soon as I sat down at the piano, the first

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Speaker 3: line I sung was it was never meant to be

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Speaker 3: like this. It was never meant to be like this.

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Speaker 3: And I just sang that line over and over again

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Speaker 3: and cried because it just opened up something in me.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to but Are You Happy? The podcast

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Speaker 2: that asked the questions you've always wanted to know from

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Speaker 2: the people who appear to have it all. I'm Claire Stevens,

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Speaker 2: and on today's episode, I'm talking to somebody who I

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Speaker 2: was very nervous to share a room with because she's

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Speaker 2: the person who wrote the words and the score to

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Speaker 2: My emotional Journey to adulthood. Missy Higgins is a multi

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Speaker 2: award winning singer songwriter whose raw and vulnerable songs have

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Speaker 2: made her a timeless icon. In the last few years,

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Speaker 2: she's started to talk more openly about her personal life,

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Speaker 2: and she's revealed the complicated reality behind the very talented,

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Speaker 2: very famous, and very young woman who became a household

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Speaker 2: name just a few years after she'd finished school. Missy

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Speaker 2: Higgins navigated depression, heartbreak, her sexuality, writer's block, a crisis

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Speaker 2: of meaning, motherhood, and separation in the public eye. And

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Speaker 2: here we talk about the tricky work of finding happiness. Thursday,

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Speaker 2: the twelfth of September is r UOK Day, and I

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Speaker 2: hope this conversation is a reminder of the fact that

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Speaker 2: luks can be deceiving, and things can be more complex

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Speaker 2: under the surface, and how crucial it is to ask

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Speaker 2: the people around you if they're actually really okay. Here's

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Speaker 2: Missy Higgins. I wanted to start by asking whether you

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Speaker 2: had a happy childhood.

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Speaker 1: I did have a happy childhood. Actually, I had a

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Speaker 1: really happy childhood.

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Speaker 3: I mean, as far as my home family life goes,

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Speaker 3: my family was really really close and always felt like

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Speaker 3: a very secure grounding place for me.

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Speaker 1: They were my safe place. I remember I was a really.

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Speaker 3: Outgoing kid until I turned about six, and then I

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Speaker 3: started to get very introspective and introverted, and then I

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Speaker 3: struggled at school a bit. I remember wanting to switch schools,

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Speaker 3: and when my mum finally.

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Speaker 1: Agreed, I literally walked.

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Speaker 3: Out of my primary school with my backpack without looking back,

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Speaker 3: didn't say goodbye to anyone. I was like good riddance,

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Speaker 3: and then I started somewhere else that I really enjoyed.

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Speaker 3: But I do remember in high school feeling like I

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Speaker 3: was very different from everybody else. All my diary entries

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Speaker 3: were like was I born on another planet? Like why

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Speaker 3: do I feel like such an alien? And why am

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Speaker 3: I so different? And I mean probably every teenage girl

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Speaker 3: was writing the same things in their diary, But I

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Speaker 3: struggled on and off with feeling a little bit different

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Speaker 3: from everybody else and a little bit like I couldn't

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Speaker 3: quite find my place.

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Speaker 2: And when you were in later high school, you had

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Speaker 2: an episode of depression, and you found out that your

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Speaker 2: dad and some people in his family had experienced it

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Speaker 2: as well. Do you think you could tell that growing up?

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Speaker 2: Could you tell that your dad struggled with happiness at all?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 3: That was the thing that was the thing that shocked me.

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Speaker 3: I had this breakdown in year eleven where I literally

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Speaker 3: collapsed and they couldn't wake me up, and I had

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Speaker 3: to go to hospital. I was semi conscious, so I

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Speaker 3: do remember it, which is weird, but I couldn't open

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Speaker 3: my eyes.

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Speaker 1: I was like locked in my body.

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Speaker 3: But I remember having a conversation with him after that, saying,

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Speaker 3: think I'm depressed, and depressed or depression back then was

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Speaker 3: not a word that everybody used like they did now.

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Speaker 3: It was a little bit like it was almost like

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Speaker 3: a very medical term, and not many people talked about it.

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Speaker 3: And I said that to him, and he was just

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Speaker 3: quiet for a bit, and then he said, well, I

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Speaker 3: think it's probably about time that I told you that.

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Speaker 1: I've had it to.

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Speaker 3: My whole adult life, and I've been medicated on and off,

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Speaker 3: and it's in our family. Our family have struggled with

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Speaker 3: it for generations. And I was so so taken aback

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Speaker 3: when he told me that, because he'd always been like

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Speaker 3: father Christmas in a way. Dad was just the loveliest, warmest,

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Speaker 3: happiest person who was always just so thrilled to see

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Speaker 3: his kids every day when he came home from school.

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Speaker 3: I remember running up the hallway to meet him and

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Speaker 3: hold on to his legs as soon as he came

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Speaker 3: in the door. I remember the sound of the garage

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Speaker 3: door coming up and his car coming in every day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So when he told me that, I was really really surprised.

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Speaker 3: And it's also the thing of like, oh, my parents

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Speaker 3: are humans and they've got a whole inner world. It

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Speaker 3: was really the first time that I learned that about him.

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Speaker 2: Do you think it connected you to him in a

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Speaker 2: different way, understanding like an emotional reality that you haven't seen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, I think so.

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Speaker 3: I mean I felt a bit unstable, I think at

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Speaker 3: first hearing that, because I was like, well, You're supposed

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Speaker 3: to be the rock for me, you know, like you're

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Speaker 3: supposed to be the one that has it all together,

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Speaker 3: and now do I have to look back at my

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Speaker 3: whole childhood and go, oh, my dad was just pretending

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Speaker 3: Or there was that whole kind of feeling of like

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Speaker 3: being on unstable ground for a bit. But then once

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Speaker 3: I thought about it in a much more mature way,

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Speaker 3: I realized that now we can talk about it together,

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Speaker 3: and now we can kind of support each other like friends.

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Speaker 2: You then went on medication, and would you have been

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Speaker 2: on medication when you wrote the Sound of White.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been on medication when I've written all of

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Speaker 3: my albums, which there's only a very small racket of

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Speaker 3: my adult life that I haven't been on medication.

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Speaker 2: Which I find I think that's actually quite moving to know,

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Speaker 2: because some of the stigma around medication can be that

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Speaker 2: it dulls or numbs or emotions. And to me, I'm like, well,

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Speaker 2: clearly you have access to the full range of human emotions.

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Speaker 2: If you've written such powerful music while on medication, have

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Speaker 2: you ever felt that it's dulled or kind of MUTI I.

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Speaker 3: Mean, the thing is, it's different for everybody, and some

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Speaker 3: people I hear it does do that for them and

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Speaker 3: they feel a bit zonked out. But most artistic people

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Speaker 3: I know who suffer from depression get so crippled by

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Speaker 3: their depression that they can't write and they're in a

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Speaker 3: kind of haze or malaise. And that's what I was like,

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Speaker 3: if I'm depressed, I can't get out of bed, let alone,

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Speaker 3: go and sit at the piano and you know, pour

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Speaker 3: my heart out. I don't want to speak to anyone.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to express my feeling. I'm sure there

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Speaker 3: are people that are different that are like, no, I

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Speaker 3: need to be miserable in order to write, But I

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Speaker 3: can definitely still be miserable on antidepressants, You're like, don't worry.

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Speaker 3: Regularly miserable, but not so miserable that I can't function.

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Speaker 3: I've always said, it makes me feel like I can

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Speaker 3: get my head just above water in order to breathe,

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Speaker 3: and then I can get on with doing the things

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Speaker 3: that you need to do in order to fix yourself,

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Speaker 3: like exercise and see people and eat well. But if

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Speaker 3: I'm not, then I just fall into this hole that

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Speaker 3: I can't sink to get myself out of.

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Speaker 2: To me, it can feel like I think the biggest

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Speaker 2: thing with depression that maybe if you had never experienced

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Speaker 2: it you wouldn't know, is that it's about energy. It

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Speaker 2: can feel like you just have absolutely no energy, and

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Speaker 2: to me, medication can provide just that little bit of

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Speaker 2: energy to then get momentum. And once you have momentum,

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Speaker 2: it's a lot easier to get out of bed and

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Speaker 2: do the things that give you some joy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, it makes me feel like I'm made of concrete. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I remember in my mid twenties I tried. I

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Speaker 3: tried to go off the meds, which I do pretty regularly,

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Speaker 3: just to see if I can do it. And it

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Speaker 3: works for a while, but then I always end up

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Speaker 3: having to go back, but I tried for a couple

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Speaker 3: of years to go off them, and I went on

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Speaker 3: this massive, big journey of self discovery, reading all these

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Speaker 3: wellness books about I don't know. I thought spiritually, I

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Speaker 3: must not have just found myself. So I went to

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Speaker 3: India and I meditated, and I went to Brazil and

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Speaker 3: down the Amazon, and I stayed with you know, an

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Speaker 3: inca village of people, and I tried to find myself

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Speaker 3: in all these exotic places. But I was actually miserable

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Speaker 3: while I was doing it all. I mean, I felt

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Speaker 3: everything extremely as I was doing it. I felt extreme

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Speaker 3: high as and extreme lows. But it was a very

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Speaker 3: hard time, and it was a very unstable time.

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Speaker 2: Do you think of yourself in terms of depression? Do

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Speaker 2: you think of it as you have depressive episodes or

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Speaker 2: do you think there's such thing as a depressive personality?

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Speaker 2: Do you see depression as part of who you are

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Speaker 2: or distinct from who you are?

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Speaker 3: I see it as part of who I am, despite

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Speaker 3: not wanting it to be who I am. But I

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Speaker 3: think looking at the patterns over the past fourteen fifteen, sorry,

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Speaker 3: hang on now, I'm older than that. Twenty four twenty

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Speaker 3: five years Jesus Christ. I think the ups and downs

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Speaker 3: are part of who I am, and I think I've

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Speaker 3: tried to fight it for so long, and I think

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Speaker 3: that's probably part of the problem. I think what's helped

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Speaker 3: as I've gotten older is realizing that it's just something

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Speaker 3: that's going to pass through if I don't fight it

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Speaker 3: too much. And also, I think the shame of it

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Speaker 3: and the denial of it is what prolongs it. So

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Speaker 3: if I just go, oh, God, all right, I'm heading

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Speaker 3: into a bit of a dark period, and I kind

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Speaker 3: of go easy on myself about that and don't beerate

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Speaker 3: myself for it, and let myself stay in bed for

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Speaker 3: a while, then it passes through much more quickly than

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Speaker 3: if I'm hating myself for being depressed on top of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you released the Sound of White and your profile

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Speaker 2: just exploded. You were everywhere, and I imagine to you

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Speaker 2: it felt like it was quite quick because you won

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Speaker 2: Triple J on Earthed, but then went overseas and then

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Speaker 2: came back and everything just went nuts. Did fame feel

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Speaker 2: how you expected it to feel?

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Speaker 3: To be honest, I'm not sure I ever tried to

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Speaker 3: imagine what fame would feel like. Because it happened so

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Speaker 3: young and so quickly.

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Speaker 2: Were you thinking about as a teenage girl being like,

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Speaker 2: but what would it feel like to be famous?

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Speaker 1: I don't think I really was.

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Speaker 3: All I was thinking about was what would it feel

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Speaker 3: like to sing in front of a lot of people?

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Speaker 3: Because that's what I wanted to do. I loved performing

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Speaker 3: so much. I was like, and I was singing a

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Speaker 3: lot of cover songs and jazz songs. I was like,

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Speaker 3: what would it feel like to sing in front of

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Speaker 3: four hundred people? And because I got such a rush

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Speaker 3: from singing in front of a small crowd, I thought,

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Speaker 3: imagine if it was a big crowd, how much of

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Speaker 3: a rush that would be. But I never thought about

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Speaker 3: being famous. So when that happened, it really took me

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Speaker 3: by surprise. And I think the fact that I was

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Speaker 3: introverted and pretty private that was a hard thing to

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Speaker 3: get accustomed to, and it took me many, many years

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Speaker 3: to become accustomed to it.

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Speaker 2: It was a different kind of fame when your music

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Speaker 2: first really hit Australian audiences, I feel like it was

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Speaker 2: right now we've got more of like a fractured idea

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Speaker 2: of fame because we're all watching different things. We're on

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Speaker 2: different platforms. There are people who are famous that I've

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Speaker 2: never heard of, and people you might think are famous.

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Speaker 2: But in the era where it was you, you were

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Speaker 2: a household name, people would just absolutely obsessed with Missy Higgins.

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Speaker 2: How did it feel to like walk down the street.

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Speaker 2: Is there a sort of self consciousness that comes up

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Speaker 2: when you know people know who you are? Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I remember seeing a therapist quite a lot back in

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Speaker 3: those days and just saying, I'd become so paranoid about

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Speaker 3: people recognizing me that I was hearing my name everywhere,

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Speaker 3: And because Missy has two s's in it, anytime anyone

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Speaker 3: was talking and I could hear the s, I always

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Speaker 3: just thought, oh my god, the same Missy, the same Missy.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: So I became kind of hyper aware slash paranoid about it.

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Speaker 3: And Yeah, it just made me really anxious. And I

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Speaker 3: don't like being looked at or talked about. And I'd

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Speaker 3: just come out of a pretty toxic relationship to where

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Speaker 3: the guy I was with was really ridiculing me and

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Speaker 3: my music and made me feel really horrible about myself.

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Speaker 3: So in my mind I was projecting that those people

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Speaker 3: were saying really horrible things about me and ridiculing me.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, it became really hard to leave the house.

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Speaker 3: Paris Hilton was big at the time. She had these

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Speaker 3: big black glasses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I bought exact same ones. It was just

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Speaker 1: so embarrassing to look back on.

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Speaker 3: But I left the house in that and you just

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Speaker 3: look so much more like you're a famous face and

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Speaker 3: trying to hide behind these glasses. But yeah, I did

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Speaker 3: that just not wanting to be noticed. I'm not sure

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Speaker 3: it worked.

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Speaker 2: So sound of white goes absolutely nuts. Do the people

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Speaker 2: that are already in your life, like friends from school

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Speaker 2: or acquaintances that you weren't that close to, do people

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Speaker 2: behave differently to you? Does it change the nature of

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Speaker 2: your relationships?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: I mean I think I'm a pretty good judge of

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Speaker 3: character and I always have been, so I remember feeling

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Speaker 3: like I can tell the people that are being genuine

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Speaker 3: to me because they are genuinely nice people, and the

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Speaker 3: people who were you just sick of fanting. But it

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Speaker 3: was a strange thing to get used to. I remember

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Speaker 3: when I went to America a couple of years later,

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Speaker 3: I was.

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Speaker 1: Like, oh my god, people are being rude to me.

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Speaker 1: It's awesome.

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Speaker 3: It was this like there was this authentic interaction that

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Speaker 3: I was having with people for the first time in

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Speaker 3: so long that it was kind of jarring at first,

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Speaker 3: but then refreshing because.

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Speaker 2: People in the industry or like social.

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Speaker 1: Interactions literally, you know, at the corner store.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Americans can be rude.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't really that they were being rude. It was

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Speaker 3: a normal interaction. They didn't give a shit about me,

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Speaker 3: because why would you. I'm just a customer. But I

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Speaker 3: was used to people going.

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Speaker 1: Oh, hello, yes, what can I do to help you,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty strange for that to start happening all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden when you're just a nobody.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think you develop an ego?

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Speaker 3: I didn't because I thought that they were all a

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Speaker 3: bit weird for doing that. Like I just thought that

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Speaker 3: those people must have an issue. There must be something

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Speaker 3: wrong with those people if they're being around me. And

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Speaker 3: also they just felt like such a distinction and a

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Speaker 3: separation between the Missy Higgins that they thought I was

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Speaker 3: and the Missy Higgins I knew that I was.

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Speaker 1: It was like they were looking at this.

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Speaker 3: Mirage that was superimposed over my face when they were

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Speaker 3: looking at me.

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Speaker 2: Which is probably a really healthy way to look at fame.

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Speaker 2: Like that's probably if someone were to analyze it, it

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Speaker 2: is that idea of like there's the actual you and

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Speaker 2: there's a projection of you, and that projection has nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with who you actually are.

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Speaker 1: I think it's probably good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can't remember anybody ever saying anything negative

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Speaker 2: about miss Higgins in that era, and I can remember

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Speaker 2: all the media coverage being really really positive. But I

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Speaker 2: can imagine that the Internet was kind of around, and

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Speaker 2: I can imagine that there would have been things that

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Speaker 2: weren't that nice. How did you take that on? And

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Speaker 2: were you able to separate yourself from what people were

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Speaker 2: saying about you?

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Speaker 3: Well, that's the kind of ironic thing, is that I

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Speaker 3: didn't take on any of the nice things. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: whenever I heard anything negative, it was like I couldn't

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Speaker 3: sleep for days and it was all that I could

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Speaker 3: think about. And I still remember the negative things that

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Speaker 3: were said about me.

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Speaker 2: What do people say?

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Speaker 3: Well, I remember the early days of Internet. There were forums,

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Speaker 3: like I guess there's forums now on Reddit and stuff

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Speaker 3: was when I read it.

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Speaker 1: Back then, there was.

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Speaker 3: Like specific websites that were set up as fan forums,

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Speaker 3: and I had one, and in that website there was

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Speaker 3: like different categories of Miss Higgins that you could talk

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Speaker 3: about and dissect, and I had I think it was

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Speaker 3: maybe my second album ish where I had changed my

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Speaker 3: live band, I'd swapped some of the musicians out to

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Speaker 3: be different players. And my hardcore fans that felt this

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Speaker 3: sense of ownership because they'd been with me since the beginning,

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Speaker 3: since before the Sound of White, they would not stand

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Speaker 3: for it. They just thought I'd changed, and they were

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Speaker 3: picking apart the way that I spoke to the audience

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Speaker 3: and how I sounded up myself, just the fact that

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Speaker 3: I had dared to evolve without consulting them first. They

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Speaker 3: were just livid and they were just tearing me apart.

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Speaker 3: And I remember I literally didn't leave the house for

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Speaker 3: two days after that. I just fell into such a

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Speaker 3: deep depression. And yeah, it wasn't that long after that

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Speaker 3: where I had a talk with my manager about it,

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Speaker 3: and he's just like, you just can't read that stuff.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think I've googled myself since really, yeah,

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Speaker 3: in over twenty years, I just will not look up myself.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to read reviews.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to read articles unless somebody literally sends

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Speaker 3: me at going, this is very flattering. You should read

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Speaker 3: this about yourself. I'm not going to do it because

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Speaker 3: I'm just too sensitive. I think I just take too

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Speaker 3: much of it on board.

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Speaker 2: Do you ever come across stuff accidentally or.

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Speaker 1: Like comm comments?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely, but I tried. They don't happen very

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Speaker 3: much on Instagram. I find I don't ever look on

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Speaker 3: Facebook because the algorithm means that people that aren't following

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Speaker 3: me can see it, which means that there's always going

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Speaker 3: to people that don't like what I'm doing. I definitely

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Speaker 3: don't go on Twitter because that's a fucking binfire.

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Speaker 2: I one should go on Twitter, ever.

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Speaker 3: And so I've found that because people following me, they're

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Speaker 3: usually pretty supportive on Instagram.

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Speaker 2: What's the kind of stuff that I find that when

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Speaker 2: you're kind of doing anything creative, there's certain things people

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00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 2: can say that just doesn't affect you. You're like, okay, cool,

362
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Speaker 2: I'm not for you. That's all good, But then there

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00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,199
Speaker 2: are certain things that really do cut through. And what

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Speaker 2: you say about the band was the thing that was

365
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Speaker 2: upsetting the fact that people were like assuming your intention

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Speaker 2: or assuming the fact that you thought you were too

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Speaker 2: good or what like? What was it about that that

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Speaker 2: was hurtful?

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Speaker 3: I think at that point in my career, I was

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00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 3: starting to get a bit jaded, because I was feeling

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00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:14,800
Speaker 3: very scrutiny and very judged at that point because so

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00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,120
Speaker 3: many people were having opinions about me and my image

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Speaker 3: and my sexuality and just wanting to know way too

374
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Speaker 3: much about me. I was already in this state of

375
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Speaker 3: defense the entire time, and so I do remember that

376
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,680
Speaker 3: show in particular that they commented on I was feeling

377
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,600
Speaker 3: a bit like, maybe a bit resentful, and I think

378
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Speaker 3: that was probably coming through I wasn't in a great place,

379
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,280
Speaker 3: and so then writing that not only validated my kind

380
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,320
Speaker 3: of fear of being torn apart publicly, but it also

381
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 3: made me realize that there was probably a truth to it,

382
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 3: because I wasn't being my best and I was a

383
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Speaker 3: little bit resentful towards the audience, and I don't know,

384
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Speaker 3: I didn't really know what to do about that.

385
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Speaker 1: I was in a kind of a bit of a

386
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Speaker 1: loop feedback loop.

387
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:09,639
Speaker 2: When you are incredibly successful, money often follows did money

388
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Speaker 2: change your lif life? From your music and you're touring

389
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Speaker 2: around America. I can imagine you had more money than

390
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Speaker 2: other people your age who you might have grown up with.

391
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Speaker 2: Did it make you happy?

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Speaker 3: I do remember getting a big check. I think it

393
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 3: was maybe about a year after the Sound of White

394
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,960
Speaker 3: came out, and I was like, I could buy a

395
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Speaker 3: house and I'm twenty one. Oh, and it was this real,

396
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,639
Speaker 3: like oh my god, what has happened to my life

397
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 3: kind of thing. But I was also on this, you know,

398
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Speaker 3: I was still riding the roller coaster of how the

399
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 3: hell am I at this point at such a young

400
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,880
Speaker 3: age and successful album and famous and all that kind

401
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:51,320
Speaker 3: of stuff.

402
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Speaker 1: So yeah, I was pretty stoked.

403
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Speaker 3: I think the fact that I had managed to make

404
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 3: a career out of music when my dad had always

405
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,400
Speaker 3: told me, he was always supportive of it. He always said,

406
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,440
Speaker 3: you need to get a UNI degree. At the very least,

407
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 3: go and get an arts degree so you have something

408
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 3: to fall back on, you know, if you're going to

409
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 3: do music, kind of implying that it's almost impossible to

410
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 3: make a career out of music.

411
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Speaker 1: And then when that happened, I was like, I think

412
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:18,960
Speaker 1: I've done it.

413
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,480
Speaker 3: I think that this means that I can probably keep

414
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 3: doing it for the rest of my life, so it

415
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 3: kind of, yeah, it felt extremely gratifying that I could

416
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:30,719
Speaker 3: relax about having to get a back up job or

417
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 3: have a backup plan.

418
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Speaker 2: Did you spend it on exciting things like when you're twenty?

419
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 2: I can't imagine having access to any kind of I

420
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 2: bought a house.

421
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Speaker 1: I put a down payment on a house.

422
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 2: I should say, oh my gosh, not even stupid clothes

423
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:46,640
Speaker 2: or anything like that.

424
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,199
Speaker 3: No. I was never a closed person, That's the thing.

425
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 3: I was never a things person. But I bought a

426
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 3: little unit and my sister and I moved into it

427
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 3: and it was just the best feeling ever.

428
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 2: After the break, Missy opens up about how grief and

429
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 2: shame inspired her new album and why her music holds

430
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:14,400
Speaker 2: so much significance to her. I have a theory that

431
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 2: the world lies to us a bit about happiness, and

432
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 2: sometimes it's those moments that are really shiny and exciting

433
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 2: from the outside that actually aren't on the inside. And

434
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 2: kind of the way we live now, especially on social media,

435
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,159
Speaker 2: where people are flattened to two dimensional images, it kind

436
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,439
Speaker 2: of exacerbates that. Do you have an example of a

437
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 2: time where the world would have thought you were happy

438
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,679
Speaker 2: and you weren't well.

439
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 3: I guess it's tricky with me because most of my

440
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 3: songs are miserable. So I don't know if anyone thinks

441
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,679
Speaker 3: that I'm happy but you're it's probably the opposite for me.

442
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 3: People think I'm miserable, but I'm actually most of the

443
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 3: time quite a happy person.

444
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

445
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 3: I mean, like I was talking about before, in the

446
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 3: early days in my early twenties, with those first couple

447
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 3: of albums, when I was touring America, I did so

448
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 3: many shows in the space of a year. I think

449
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 3: that I completely burnt myself out. But I was finally

450
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 3: getting somewhere over there, Like I went gold with my

451
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 3: second album, and that was something that I'd been building

452
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 3: up for. I'd been doing so many shows, I've been

453
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 3: working so hard for it, and everybody at the record

454
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 3: label was applauding it, and it's like, let's use this

455
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 3: as a springboard for the next album. And it got

456
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 3: to that point I was like, Nah, sorry, I can't

457
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 3: do another album. I'm completely burnt out. I've been touring

458
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 3: for so long that I have nothing to write about

459
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 3: apart from touring the road. How many songs can you

460
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 3: write about wheels on the road? Two of us is Yeah,

461
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 3: I hadn't had any relationships and had no breakups to

462
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 3: write about. I felt like I'd been in this yeah,

463
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 3: this weird loop for at least two and a half

464
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 3: years touring that album, and I had to give it

465
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 3: all up.

466
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: I tried writing. I tried for two years to write

467
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: for my third album. Thing came.

468
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 3: I remember hiring this tiny little room above a flower

469
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 3: shop in Northcote in Melbourne and going there every day

470
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 3: thinking I was nick Cave with my briefcase and my suit,

471
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 3: treating it like a job, treating it like a nine

472
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 3: to five, and it still didn't work. And after two

473
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 3: years of that, I just I took my manager out

474
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 3: for lunch and I told him that I had just

475
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 3: nothing left.

476
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: I couldn't write. I was miserable.

477
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 3: Yes, I'd reached a level of success in Australia and

478
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 3: America that you know, I could have only dreamed of,

479
00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 3: but I wasn't happy.

480
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: Do you think the success was paralyzing like when you

481
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 2: were trying to write and you couldn't. Was it that

482
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 2: you felt like you had nothing to write about? Or

483
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,959
Speaker 2: was it that you were aware that whatever you wrote

484
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 2: would be heard by so many people? And there was

485
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: pressure on it in a way.

486
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 3: That Yeah, I think I felt very scrutinized from every direction,

487
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 3: like in my personal life and with my music. There

488
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 3: was a massive amount of pressure to back that up

489
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 3: with another successful album. But I think it probably came

490
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 3: down to the fact that I just I didn't enjoy

491
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 3: what I did anymore, Like I didn't enjoy playing live

492
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 3: shows anymore because of the fact that I had been

493
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 3: doing it for too long without a break. You know,

494
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 3: if you do anything for too long without a break,

495
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 3: you don't appreciate it. And all I really needed to

496
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 3: do was to find a better balance, I think, but

497
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 3: I'd gone too hard and I hadn't said no to anything,

498
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 3: like whatever the US record label wanted me to do,

499
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 3: I'd said yes too. It was too much. I wasn't

500
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 3: listening to myself at that point. I think I didn't

501
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 3: have any idea how to tune into my mental health

502
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,120
Speaker 3: and go, hey, you probably need to just step back

503
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 3: for a bit because you're getting a bit burnt out.

504
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 3: It was like, no, you're burnt out, but you got

505
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 3: to keep going because this is the business. You're in

506
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 3: the business now, and there's a massive label that is

507
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 3: writing on this album being successful. So I think I

508
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 3: just became part of a huge machine and it just

509
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 3: started to feel very gross and impersonal and it sucked

510
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 3: all of the love out of music for me.

511
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 2: You've said that you also worried that music was selfish

512
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 2: and you weren't contributing enough to the world. It's funny

513
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 2: you're not the first musician, Like we've had another musician

514
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 2: on this show who said that, And I think it's

515
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 2: interesting that musicians say it because I think there's like

516
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 2: an emotional intelligence slash depth that makes you constantly question

517
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 2: your place in the world. Whereas I think it's funny.

518
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 2: I think a lot of say influences aren't questioning.

519
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm very influential. I must be effectively the world positively.

520
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: But it's interesting that you do kind of grapple with that,

521
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: like have a crisis of meaning and you went and

522
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 2: tried to do other things. It came back to music,

523
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 2: and it was a bit of a weird like the

524
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 2: universe was directing you back to music. With Sarah McLaughlan

525
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 2: and the opportunity you got in terms of music and

526
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 2: whether it's selfish, How do you feel about that now?

527
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 3: I feel like yes, it's selfish, but that's completely okay,

528
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 3: and ultimately that's kind of what helps people the most.

529
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 3: Meaning if you write music from a completely selfish place,

530
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 3: it has a better chance of really hitting home for

531
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 3: somebody because you're not trying to make anything that sells.

532
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 3: You're not trying to make something that as many people

533
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 3: as possible can relate to. You're just being honest, and

534
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 3: honest is the thing that cuts through, and authenticity is

535
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 3: the thing that people need most. And if ever I'm

536
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 3: going through something really really difficult and I find a

537
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 3: way to put it into words, if someone can hear

538
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 3: that song and feel not so alone in whatever they're

539
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: going through, then that's great. So I think it's okay

540
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 3: to be selfish. But I think it's also important to

541
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 3: realize that art is what the world needs most, an honest,

542
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 3: authentic art where people are not putting under pretense of

543
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 3: I've got it all sorted out and I'm really strong

544
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 3: and powerful and wise, and this is how you should

545
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 3: live your life. You know, I don't want to tell

546
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 3: anybody how to live their life. I think that would

547
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 3: be really disingenuous because I have no idea. So I'm

548
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 3: not going to pretend. The more people that do that,

549
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 3: I think the better the more people that stop pretending

550
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 3: and just go.

551
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: Oh my god, how hard is life like? This life thing?

552
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 3: It's really bloody hard, guys that you agree, Yeah, And

553
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 3: with this new album, I just I didn't think about

554
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 3: an audience. I sat down because I was really really

555
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 3: trying to grapple with the fact my marriage had fallen

556
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 3: apart and all I ever wanted was to find someone

557
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 3: to be with forever and stay as a family unit forever.

558
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 3: And I felt like such a failure for that not happening,

559
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 3: and I felt like it was my responsibility to keep

560
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 3: the family together. And somehow along the way I'd made

561
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 3: really bad decisions or I'd not been strong enough, or

562
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 3: something like that, and so I was dealing with so

563
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 3: much shame. And as soon as I sat down at

564
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 3: the piano, the first line I sung, it was never

565
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 3: meant to be like this, It was never meant to

566
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 3: be like this, And I just sang that line over

567
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 3: and over again and cried because it just opened up

568
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 3: something in me, and I realized, oh, that's it for me.

569
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: The biggest tragedy here is that my narrative that I

570
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 3: had for myself has burnt to the ground, and now

571
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 3: I have no narrative and I feel completely lost. And

572
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 3: as I kept writing every song, something else in me

573
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 3: opened up, and I realized something else about my shame

574
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 3: or my grief, and I tackled it from a different

575
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 3: ang and it helped me so much. And now that

576
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 3: I've released it and I've played these songs live, I

577
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 3: can feel that they connect with other people that are

578
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 3: going through exactly the same thing. But that wasn't what

579
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: I intended when I sat down to write it. I

580
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: think if I had sat down and thought, how am

581
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 3: I going to help people that are going through the

582
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 3: same thing as me, I would have probably written a

583
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 3: song full of these fake answers that I didn't have,

584
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 3: and that would have people wouldn't have felt the power

585
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 3: in them. I don't think they wouldn't have felt the

586
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 3: songs deep in their heart because they would have known

587
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 3: that it wasn't authentically in my story.

588
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: It feels that your album The Second Act almost feels

589
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: like uncharted territory artistically, which seems so bizarre when we

590
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: know that a huge number of women who are in

591
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: their thirties, forties fifty sixty marriages have ended. Why do

592
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 2: you think there's such shame? Why do you think you

593
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: felt such shame?

594
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I know it has something to

595
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 3: do with being a woman and feeling like it's our

596
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 3: responsibility to make sure everyone is okay and keep everyone together,

597
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 3: keep everyone happy. I definitely felt like I was the

598
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 3: one that should have tried harder to make it work,

599
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 3: and somehow I failed to give my kids the family

600
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 3: that I.

601
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: Grew up with.

602
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 3: And as far as why people haven't written songs about

603
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 3: it before, I don't really know. I think I do

604
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 3: feel like there is that pressure as a songwriter and

605
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 3: as an artist to come up with songs that do

606
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 3: sound more empowered. As a woman, I think there's that

607
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 3: vulnerability and fragility that you don't really want to admit to,

608
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 3: and I think in the back of your head, you're like,

609
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 3: no one wants to hear how miserable I am, and

610
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 3: no one wants to hear about divorce. No one wants

611
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 3: to hear about being a forty year old single mum.

612
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 3: Like it's not sexy. The radios aren't going to play this.

613
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 3: But I guess I'm privileged to be at a point

614
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 3: in my career where one nobody plays me on the

615
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 3: radio anyway, but I don't need that because.

616
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: Who listens to the radio anyone?

617
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 3: Sorry, But I mean, I just think that I feel

618
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 3: really lucky to have a fan base that have followed

619
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 3: me through my whole career and still want to hear

620
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 3: what I have to say and what I put out.

621
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 3: So I don't know, I think I felt like I

622
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 3: didn't have to cater to anybody because I'm comfortable. I

623
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 3: don't need to sell too many units in order to

624
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 3: kind of put food on my kid's table. I can

625
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 3: just write what I want at this point in my life,

626
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 3: and I feel like I probably have enough validation and

627
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 3: enough confidence in myself as an artist. I have enough

628
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 3: fans that have followed me my whole career that I

629
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 3: trust that they'll be there for this one. And I know,

630
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 3: I know that there's going to be so many people

631
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,479
Speaker 3: that relate to it, because, as you said, it's it's

632
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 3: non original thing.

633
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: And it is. I said at the beginning of this

634
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 2: that for me, you've been this, you know, soundtrack to

635
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 2: my life, and it's eerie how much what you write

636
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: about has always mirrored where I am, and that is

637
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: not unique to me, that is why you're so incredibly successful.

638
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: But I have friends who say, if you think your

639
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: relationship is good, have a child, and it's like putting

640
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: it into a blender. That's how she describes it, that

641
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 2: the first year after having a childhood's like putting a

642
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: relationship into a blender. How have you gone about thinking

643
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: about happiness and making decisions? Like the decision to separate?

644
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: Was that about prioritizing your happiness?

645
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all it was about.

646
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 3: I mean my happiness and my partner's happiness. We were

647
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: both miserable and had been for a while, and we

648
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,639
Speaker 3: just looked at each other and went It started off

649
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 3: with I think that we should live in separate houses,

650
00:34:21,959 --> 00:34:24,439
Speaker 3: and then that kind of slowly progressed to well, I

651
00:34:24,479 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 3: mean we're living in separate houses. We're pretty much separated,

652
00:34:27,959 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 3: and yeah, throwing kids into the mix. I think what's

653
00:34:31,759 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 3: tricky about having kids with somebody is you have no

654
00:34:33,919 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 3: idea what the other person's going to be like, has.

655
00:34:36,319 --> 00:34:39,559
Speaker 2: No idea, You have no idea. You think that you do.

656
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: You think you're like, they're a really good person. They're

657
00:34:41,319 --> 00:34:42,039
Speaker 1: crying with kids.

658
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I'm not saying that to say my

659
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 3: partner's a bad dad because he's an excellent dad, But

660
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 3: you have to have the same parenting style as that

661
00:34:50,919 --> 00:34:53,959
Speaker 3: person as well, And depending on how you grew up,

662
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,039
Speaker 3: how you were parented, you're going to have different ideas

663
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 3: of discipline, what to do when a child's kind of

664
00:35:01,399 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 3: loud and messy and chaotic, and how to handle that.

665
00:35:05,399 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: And I don't know.

666
00:35:06,879 --> 00:35:08,439
Speaker 3: I think in the end, we just went, is this

667
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,519
Speaker 3: going to be easier if we're not in same house together, Like,

668
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,519
Speaker 3: if we can do this on our own, separately, And

669
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 3: ultimately that's going to be better for the kids because

670
00:35:17,839 --> 00:35:19,999
Speaker 3: it's going to make happier parents and it's going to

671
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 3: make calmer parents. And what they need is as much

672
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 3: stability as we can possibly give them. And we realized

673
00:35:26,799 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 3: that it's going to make for a much more stable

674
00:35:30,359 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 3: vibe at home if we can do it separately.

675
00:35:33,439 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 2: One of the songs on your album is called Blue

676
00:35:36,799 --> 00:35:41,119
Speaker 2: Velvet Dress, and it's about you performing on New Year's

677
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 2: Eve and it's kind of that tension between how things

678
00:35:45,399 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 2: look on the outside and what was going on behind

679
00:35:47,799 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 2: the scenes. Can you tell us the story of what

680
00:35:51,279 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 2: was happening that night when you're performing?

681
00:35:54,479 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, so him and I had broken up that day,

682
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 3: and I was set to perform at the ABC New

683
00:36:01,479 --> 00:36:05,599
Speaker 3: Year's Eve broadcast in twenty twenty one. I'd also been

684
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,559
Speaker 3: sick and kind of isolating in a hotel room for

685
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,599
Speaker 3: the past two days, so it was really intense. You know,

686
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 3: these were COVID days. I remember thinking, I have to

687
00:36:16,319 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 3: get up in front of millions of people on live

688
00:36:19,399 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 3: television and sing and put on a brave face.

689
00:36:23,279 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: And I didn't know how I was going to do it.

690
00:36:26,399 --> 00:36:27,599
Speaker 1: I'd been crying all day.

691
00:36:27,759 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 3: And I put on my blue velvet dress and I

692
00:36:31,479 --> 00:36:33,439
Speaker 3: got up there and I did it, and I smiled

693
00:36:33,479 --> 00:36:36,959
Speaker 3: and I did my best acting job ever.

694
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:41,119
Speaker 1: And I don't know. It was bizarre, because in a way,

695
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: it was actually.

696
00:36:42,439 --> 00:36:47,559
Speaker 3: A really good excuse to forget about what had been happening,

697
00:36:47,799 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 3: because I had no choice. I was like, you're in

698
00:36:49,879 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 3: performance mode now, don't think about it. So I didn't

699
00:36:52,839 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 3: for those ten minutes that I was on stage.

700
00:36:55,479 --> 00:36:56,079
Speaker 1: And then when I.

701
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 3: Got off, the fireworks started over the Sydney huber Ridge

702
00:36:59,759 --> 00:37:03,599
Speaker 3: and the girls in my band and I just all

703
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 3: held each other and looked up at the fireworks and cried,

704
00:37:07,759 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 3: or I cried, and they held me, and it was

705
00:37:11,359 --> 00:37:13,959
Speaker 3: kind of an amazing feeling because I was so miserable.

706
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 3: But I was also watching these fireworks, going it's a

707
00:37:18,399 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 3: new year, it's a new year, and it's a new chapter,

708
00:37:22,319 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 3: and my life will never be the same again. And

709
00:37:26,359 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 3: it was terrifying and a little bit exhilarating at the

710
00:37:30,799 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 3: same time and just really really intense. But I wanted

711
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 3: to write a song about that night because I just thought,

712
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 3: what a crazy way to separate from somebody on news,

713
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,479
Speaker 3: even live television. So I write a song called Blue

714
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 3: Velvet Dress, and the dress ended up being kind of

715
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 3: a metaphor for my old self.

716
00:37:50,919 --> 00:37:53,639
Speaker 2: I think that is such a powerful example of how

717
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 2: you never know what someone's going through, Like you would

718
00:37:56,759 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 2: have anybody in the audience, anybody watching, would have seen

719
00:38:00,399 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 2: you performing and thought that someone who has it all together,

720
00:38:03,799 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 2: because you're brilliant every time you perform, and the dress

721
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 2: is beautiful, and they would have just thought that everything

722
00:38:11,759 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 2: was completely fine and not had any idea of that

723
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: private pain. Now that it's been a few years, do

724
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 2: you feel like the separation has opened up a new

725
00:38:22,879 --> 00:38:25,959
Speaker 2: path for you? Obviously the album there's a lot of

726
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 2: sadness and there's a lot of complex emotions that need

727
00:38:29,279 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: to be processed. But can you see the way forward

728
00:38:31,839 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 2: and how it's opened the door for happiness.

729
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I don't know if it's opened the

730
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:43,439
Speaker 3: door for happiness. I think my happiness and sense of

731
00:38:44,359 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 3: mental well being is always going to be a process,

732
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,439
Speaker 3: and I'm always going to be someone that's hyper sensitive

733
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 3: to the world and everything going on around me. But

734
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,399
Speaker 3: that's something I've come to accept and I've come to

735
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 3: realize that it's probably why I'm good at writing songs,

736
00:39:00,479 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 3: because I just I take everything in and I feel

737
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,559
Speaker 3: things very very strongly. But I feel like I'm in

738
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 3: a really good place right now. I think that the

739
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 3: it's been enough distance from the separation, and I've processed

740
00:39:14,399 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 3: a lot of things through this album, through writing these

741
00:39:17,799 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 3: songs and to be honest, performing them live like I

742
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 3: did forty shows, singing at least five songs from the

743
00:39:25,439 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 3: new album every night and telling pretty honest anecdotes in between,

744
00:39:31,799 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 3: and that was so therapeutic, Like I've really felt a

745
00:39:36,799 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 3: sense of solidarity between me and the audience, and I

746
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: really felt them with me every step of the way,

747
00:39:43,279 --> 00:39:47,479
Speaker 3: and getting off stage and having told my story and

748
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,439
Speaker 3: having laughed about the fact that I'm kind of miserable,

749
00:39:52,439 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 3: I was like, guys, I'm in it. I'm singing to

750
00:39:55,319 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 3: you live broadcasting from the mess that I'm in. I

751
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 3: don't have any answers, and I am struggling, but I'm

752
00:40:03,319 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 3: really glad to be here with you today and singing

753
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,639
Speaker 3: these songs, and my love's going out to anyone else

754
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 3: going through it.

755
00:40:10,319 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 2: Do you think it is happiness or do you think

756
00:40:11,839 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 2: it's something else? Like do you think that maybe it's

757
00:40:15,279 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 2: not happiness you're pursuing, it's like clarity or meaning, or

758
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: like something bigger than happiness.

759
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 3: I think, more than anything, if I'm really honest with myself,

760
00:40:25,399 --> 00:40:28,079
Speaker 3: I think that I want to be known. I want

761
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:33,919
Speaker 3: to be really known and understood because I think that

762
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 3: everybody is such a complex person and you only show

763
00:40:37,359 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 3: people little tidbits here and there, and to be really

764
00:40:41,799 --> 00:40:45,599
Speaker 3: known and to be loved for exactly who you are,

765
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 3: I think that that's what I want more than anything,

766
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 3: and I have that with my friends and my family.

767
00:40:51,759 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 3: So I think intimacy and connection is what I cherish

768
00:40:56,479 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 3: the most.

769
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: So if I have that.

770
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 3: As well as a sense of meaning and purpose, as

771
00:41:02,839 --> 00:41:04,959
Speaker 3: long as I'm doing what I feel like I was

772
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,599
Speaker 3: meant to do and what I'm good at, and it's

773
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,919
Speaker 3: helping people in any sort of way. I feel like

774
00:41:11,959 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 3: that's a really, really satisfying feeling to know that I'm

775
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,119
Speaker 3: doing I'm doing the thing that I was meant to do.

776
00:41:19,359 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: I don't know about happiness. I do like being happy.

777
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 3: It happens ocasion, but I think, yeah, a sense of

778
00:41:26,399 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 3: purpose and meaning and connection is probably more.

779
00:41:29,279 --> 00:41:29,999
Speaker 1: Important to me.

780
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 2: More of my conversation with Missy Higgins after this short break.

781
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 2: Speaking of meaning and connection, you have a song called

782
00:41:46,359 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 2: Song for Sammy that my sister and I have shared

783
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 2: with each other, and we say that it makes us

784
00:41:51,759 --> 00:41:56,559
Speaker 2: vomit with emotion. It is the best representation of how

785
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,559
Speaker 2: it feels to be a parent. It's just it's so

786
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:05,999
Speaker 2: beautiful and also sad, and also the idea of the nightmare.

787
00:42:07,279 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 2: What do your kids bring to you?

788
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 3: My kids definitely bring to me a sense of purpose

789
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 3: and meaning, probably more than anything else. But I don't

790
00:42:18,759 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 3: want to rely on them as my soul as the

791
00:42:21,879 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 3: sole giver of meaning in my life or the things

792
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 3: that are going to make me feel.

793
00:42:27,439 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 1: Appreciated or loved. They definitely make me feel loved.

794
00:42:31,279 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 3: But I think it can be tough being a parent,

795
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 3: and particularly a single parent, because you know, there's a

796
00:42:38,959 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 3: lot of demands and bad moods that you have to

797
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 3: cop the brunt of, and a lot of my self

798
00:42:44,879 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 3: narrative is going, don't take it personally, Missy. They're dispending,

799
00:42:48,759 --> 00:42:51,519
Speaker 3: they're dispanding, they don't really hate you, and you're not

800
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 3: really ruining their life. So it's like you really do

801
00:42:55,839 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 3: need to get gratification outside of your parenting.

802
00:42:59,399 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: I think that that's very healthy.

803
00:43:01,319 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 3: But I know that I am I'm their rock, and

804
00:43:06,799 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 3: that gives me a sense of purpose. The fact that

805
00:43:09,479 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 3: I'm consisting distantly there for them. I'm consistently loving and

806
00:43:13,839 --> 00:43:15,919
Speaker 3: supporting of them, or at least I try to be.

807
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 3: I think that that gives me a sense of meaning,

808
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 3: probably more than anything else. I don't know, maybe probably

809
00:43:24,479 --> 00:43:26,399
Speaker 3: equal to music, though, to be honest, at this point

810
00:43:26,399 --> 00:43:30,599
Speaker 3: in my life, I really get so much gratification out

811
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 3: of what I do.

812
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,559
Speaker 1: I think because I've been through.

813
00:43:34,759 --> 00:43:39,399
Speaker 3: That whole existential crisis in my twenties about whether what

814
00:43:39,479 --> 00:43:41,919
Speaker 3: I do has any meaning or makes any difference.

815
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 1: I've been through that.

816
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,919
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm back to music now with a

817
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:50,919
Speaker 3: renewed sense of gratitude, and I know that what I

818
00:43:50,959 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 3: do makes.

819
00:43:51,479 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: An impact, even if it's small, it does make an impact.

820
00:43:54,479 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: And that's enough.

821
00:43:55,319 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 3: That's enough for me, and that's more than you can

822
00:43:57,959 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 3: really ask for in life. So yeah, music and parenting,

823
00:44:02,439 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 3: I think are the things that give me the most

824
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,079
Speaker 3: sense of fulfillment.

825
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: Has been a mum changed the way you look at

826
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 2: the world.

827
00:44:10,279 --> 00:44:11,999
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, how could it not.

828
00:44:12,319 --> 00:44:17,439
Speaker 3: It changes your entire being, although I think that it

829
00:44:17,479 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 3: really changes when they get older. I think I was

830
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 3: very consumed with being a parent for the first I

831
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 3: don't know, maybe six years or so, maybe longer, and

832
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:31,839
Speaker 3: just now I'm getting to the point where I'm like,

833
00:44:32,959 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 3: I can see myself again when I look in the mirror,

834
00:44:36,279 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 3: Like I don't just see a mother of my kids,

835
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 3: I see myself. Maybe it's because i'm single again too.

836
00:44:42,879 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm on the mine.

837
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,959
Speaker 3: But I'm also really remembering who I was before I

838
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 3: was a parent, And that's kind of a relief, because

839
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,119
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that this is probably what needs

840
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,879
Speaker 3: to happen. You do need to be so consumed by

841
00:44:58,919 --> 00:45:01,039
Speaker 3: your kids in the early years because they need you

842
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 3: so badly. But once they start getting a little bit

843
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 3: more independent, you start having to loosen your grip on

844
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 3: them again, which is healthy and I imagine keeps happening.

845
00:45:09,959 --> 00:45:11,519
Speaker 1: Until leave home more and more.

846
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 3: But I feel like it's loosened up a little bit

847
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 3: enough now that I'm like, Okay, so what do I

848
00:45:18,399 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 3: like to do again, and what do I want to

849
00:45:21,319 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 3: do with my free time?

850
00:45:22,319 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: And who am I?

851
00:45:23,759 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 3: And you know, starting to look at myself again as

852
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,959
Speaker 3: an individual person rather than constantly tethered to my two

853
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 3: little offspring.

854
00:45:36,319 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 2: When you think about being an old woman, I'm looking

855
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,639
Speaker 2: back at your life, what do you think it will

856
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 2: be that will have made you happy?

857
00:45:47,759 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 1: Like?

858
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: What gives you the perspective when you're kind of really

859
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 2: in the grind of day to day life and you

860
00:45:55,479 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 2: take second to zoom out, what do you think it

861
00:45:57,839 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 2: will be that gave you a happy life?

862
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a cliche, but family and friends. It's

863
00:46:06,399 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 3: always those moments of connection and communion with people that

864
00:46:10,279 --> 00:46:13,399
Speaker 3: I love that really know me. I guess because over

865
00:46:13,439 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 3: my life there's been a lot of people that have

866
00:46:16,919 --> 00:46:21,519
Speaker 3: come and gone, but my friends who know me for

867
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 3: who I am behind the scenes, not as Missy Higgins.

868
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,039
Speaker 3: But just you know, Missy, they're really dear to me,

869
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 3: and they're really important to me, And you know, I

870
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 3: think I'll remember specific occasions where we've all gone away

871
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,559
Speaker 3: together or all stayed up late talking. I love the

872
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,479
Speaker 3: girls in my band, the girls that we tour with.

873
00:46:44,359 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 3: I have a really really special connection with them because

874
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 3: we go through this crazy thing together that not many

875
00:46:50,759 --> 00:46:53,319
Speaker 3: people can relate to. But when I look back on

876
00:46:53,319 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 3: my life, I think they're the moments that I'll cherish.

877
00:46:56,279 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 3: And seeing my kids emerge, you know, into the human

878
00:47:01,439 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 3: beings that they were always going to become, My family

879
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 3: and my friends, those kind of moments I reckon. I

880
00:47:08,799 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 3: don't think I'll remember any of arias that I won,

881
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 3: or you know, any of the famous people that I

882
00:47:14,279 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 3: met along the way. I don't think they're going to

883
00:47:16,439 --> 00:47:18,999
Speaker 3: be the things that I look back on and go, yeah,

884
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 3: that's what made me happy. I think it's going to

885
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:24,559
Speaker 3: be those moments of real connection and understanding.

886
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 2: What would you say is your biggest challenge to happiness

887
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 2: at the moment.

888
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good question.

889
00:47:33,359 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 3: I mean, I am my own worst enemy when it

890
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:38,919
Speaker 3: comes to self criticism.

891
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 1: I think I overthink everything.

892
00:47:42,759 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 2: What do you tend to beat yourself up about? Like,

893
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 2: surely not music.

894
00:47:48,839 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 3: I know I'm very very proud of myself at the

895
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,519
Speaker 3: moment for this new album. I think it's the best

896
00:47:54,520 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 3: thing I've ever done. But I guess in general, I

897
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 3: tend to just talk back to myself and go, you

898
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 3: need to do more, you need to be better, you

899
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 3: need to be this or that I have. I'm possibly

900
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:14,039
Speaker 3: high standards for myself, so I'm always self critical. I

901
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 3: think that that's part of the reason why I've got

902
00:48:17,319 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 3: where I am, because I do hold myself to a

903
00:48:19,279 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 3: very high standard. But it can also make for a

904
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 3: not very nice little narrative that goes on in my

905
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 3: head when I'm laying in bed at night. I'm a

906
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 3: real introvert, so I find that it's easy for me

907
00:48:31,359 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 3: to push people away because I just need time by myself.

908
00:48:37,279 --> 00:48:39,159
Speaker 3: Like there's a friend of mine at the moment who

909
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 3: can't quite understand that when I'm going through a hard time,

910
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 3: that I won't let her be there for.

911
00:48:45,759 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: Me, And I'm like, I really really love the.

912
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 3: Fact that you want to be there for me, but

913
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 3: I process things in a different way to you, Like

914
00:48:54,759 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 3: I honestly don't want to talk it out, and I

915
00:48:56,799 --> 00:48:58,519
Speaker 3: don't think it would be good for me because it

916
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,519
Speaker 3: drains me and I really just need to spend time

917
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,959
Speaker 3: by myself, be with my kids. I'll process this in

918
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 3: my own time. I'm not just saying that I want

919
00:49:08,879 --> 00:49:10,919
Speaker 3: to be alone. I really actually I do want to

920
00:49:10,919 --> 00:49:14,119
Speaker 3: be alone and I need to be so I think

921
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,519
Speaker 3: that that can be a little bit hard and sometimes

922
00:49:16,839 --> 00:49:18,919
Speaker 3: can alienate me a little bit from my friends. So

923
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,919
Speaker 3: it's like finding a balance between keeping my friends in

924
00:49:22,919 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 3: my life and making sure that they know that I'm

925
00:49:25,759 --> 00:49:28,519
Speaker 3: important to them, but trying to make them understand that

926
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 3: I operate in a bit of a different way and

927
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 3: that I need to be a bit of a hermit sometimes.

928
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 2: Right now, you've got this album. You've been through really

929
00:49:41,439 --> 00:49:44,959
Speaker 2: challenging a few years, where you've talked about the fact

930
00:49:44,959 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 2: that you didn't think this was the direction that your

931
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,879
Speaker 2: life was going to go in. But right now, are

932
00:49:51,879 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 2: you happy?

933
00:49:53,919 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: Yeah?

934
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 3: I'm very happy at the moment. Yeah, I can honestly

935
00:49:57,319 --> 00:50:00,599
Speaker 3: say that. I mean I wasn't at the beginning of

936
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:04,399
Speaker 3: this tour. During rehearsals, I was bulling my eyes out

937
00:50:04,439 --> 00:50:06,999
Speaker 3: while playing these songs, going I don't know how I'm

938
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 3: going to get through this, but I think the cathartism

939
00:50:11,879 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 3: of playing these songs every night and talking to the

940
00:50:14,359 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 3: audience about what I've been going through and probably just time,

941
00:50:17,919 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 3: you know, like heartbreak takes time. I feel like I'm

942
00:50:21,319 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 3: in a really good place right now where I don't

943
00:50:23,319 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 3: feel like I need anybody else to fulfill me. And

944
00:50:26,759 --> 00:50:29,519
Speaker 3: that's taken quite a long time to get to this

945
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 3: point because I guess it's so much part of our

946
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,079
Speaker 3: cultural narrative that in order to have a successful life

947
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 3: you need to team up with somebody else and make

948
00:50:39,759 --> 00:50:42,919
Speaker 3: a vow and be in it together. And people are

949
00:50:42,919 --> 00:50:46,599
Speaker 3: always looking at you like, oh you lonely. But I

950
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 3: feel really fulfilled. I feel really fulfilled with my music,

951
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 3: and I feel fulfilled with being able to just really

952
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 3: concentrate on my kids and spend some very very quality

953
00:50:57,359 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 3: time with them and being surrounded by my friends and

954
00:51:00,279 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 3: family unless I'm feeling introverted to in which case they've.

955
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,119
Speaker 2: Got a better off go away. Thank you so much

956
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: for your time today. I really appreciate it, no worries.

957
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:10,919
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.

958
00:51:12,959 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 2: Something that has always struck me about Missy Higgins is

959
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 2: that there's an integrity and a depth there where she

960
00:51:19,359 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 2: seems to be able to see through superficial distractions. She

961
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,959
Speaker 2: knows what's important and what isn't and I really want

962
00:51:26,959 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 2: that for myself. For more from Missy, go and listen

963
00:51:30,399 --> 00:51:32,959
Speaker 2: to her brand new album, The Second Act, and you

964
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 2: can find dates for her final encore shows on her website.

965
00:51:37,279 --> 00:51:39,839
Speaker 2: I want to thank Missy Higgins for her vulnerability, and

966
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 2: if there's anyone you know who you think might get

967
00:51:42,839 --> 00:51:45,999
Speaker 2: something out of this conversation, please share it with them.

968
00:51:46,759 --> 00:51:48,999
Speaker 2: If you want to recommend anyone for the show, you

969
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 2: can message me on Instagram, and if you like the show,

970
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 2: leave us a review. We always love your feedback. On

971
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 2: next week's episode, I chat to an athlete who was

972
00:52:00,319 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 2: recently at the paras Olympics and who caught my attention

973
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 2: because he lost, and he was incredibly candid about what

974
00:52:09,879 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 2: that experience was like, and I wanted to talk to

975
00:52:12,879 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 2: him about failure and how it feels to work towards

976
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 2: a goal for your entire adult life and then not

977
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 2: achieve it and know that you can't really go back

978
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 2: and redo it. It's a really, really moving conversation and

979
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:33,479
Speaker 2: I hope you'll join us. The executive producer of But

980
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 2: Are You Happy is Nama Brown, and the producer is

981
00:52:36,319 --> 00:52:40,079
Speaker 2: Charlie Blackman. Audio editing by Scott Stronik. And I'm your

982
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:41,359
Speaker 2: host Claire Stevens.