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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on.

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Speaker 2: I'm Laura Brodneck, host of The Spill, which is Mama

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Speaker 2: MIA's daily entertainment and pop culture podcast.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Claire Murphy. I'm the host of True Crime Conversations,

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Speaker 1: which is our weekly true crime podcast speaking to the

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Speaker 1: people who know the most about these crimes. Well, i

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Speaker 1: am the host when Jemma Bath is not on maternity

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Speaker 1: leave and she will be returning never fear. But we

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Speaker 1: know just how popular true crime is, whether you listen

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Speaker 1: to it on a podcast, whether you watch it on

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Speaker 1: your streaming service of choice. But what about when crime

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Speaker 1: meets drama? And that is what we are talking about today.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that is what we're here to discuss.

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Speaker 2: So we are talking about the new Disney Plus series,

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Speaker 2: The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox.

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Speaker 3: And if you're listening to this.

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Speaker 2: Through the Spill feed, we have heard all of your

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Speaker 2: comments that you want more true crime series and you

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Speaker 2: want to kind of dissect the actors and the production,

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Speaker 2: the behind the scenes facts, but you also want to

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Speaker 2: know what happened in the real life case and where

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Speaker 2: those people are now and why these stories were chosen

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Speaker 2: to be told in a dramatic fashion. So we're going

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Speaker 2: to be deep diving into that in today's episode. So Claire,

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Speaker 2: as our true crime expert, you're going to take us

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Speaker 2: through the Aman Dannox's case and what happened from the beginning,

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Speaker 2: because I think for a lot of people like myself,

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Speaker 2: I have such a memory of watching this unfold on

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Speaker 2: TV at the time, But there's so much more to

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Speaker 2: this case, I think, and it became a lot more

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Speaker 2: in depth than a lot of people realize.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you got your information about this case

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Speaker 1: from the news media, then that may have actually twisted

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Speaker 1: the way you might see it or view it. So

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Speaker 1: we're going to get to the bottom of that as well.

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Speaker 1: But I'll step you through where this all began. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So first thing I need to warn you is that

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Speaker 1: this case spans years. Yes, so it went on for

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Speaker 1: a really long time, So bear with us. There's a

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Speaker 1: little bit to get through. It started off in September

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Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. That is when Meredith Kercher, who

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Speaker 1: was a British student. She was spending a year studying

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Speaker 1: abroad in Italy and she moved into a share accommodation,

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Speaker 1: which is the villa at seven Via della Pergola in Perusia.

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Speaker 1: And then later that same month, just ten days later,

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Speaker 1: Amanda Knox, who was an American student doing the same thing,

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Speaker 1: spending a year in Italy, she moved into the same address.

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Speaker 1: So there is four young girls living in this small

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Speaker 1: apartment or small villa. There are some boys living in

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Speaker 1: the flat downstairs, so they all share this villa together.

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Speaker 1: On October twenty five, Amanda meets a young Italian boy

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Speaker 1: called Rafaeli. Now they met at a concert. They are

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Speaker 1: immediately in love. They do that honeymoon period where they

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Speaker 1: spend literally every minute of every day together. She then

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Speaker 1: starts staying at his house essentially every night. She has

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Speaker 1: a job, so she goes and works at a bar,

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Speaker 1: local bar, and she is studying as well, so she's

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Speaker 1: doing that too. But essentially her and Rafaeli now become inseparable.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And in the show it was depicted they had

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Speaker 2: only been together about week before the events of Meredith's

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Speaker 2: murder took place. And I saw a lot of feedback

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Speaker 2: from the show of people thinking that that was added

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Speaker 2: into the story for extra dramatic effect or to make

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Speaker 2: their relationship look more like a whirlwind, but they actually

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Speaker 2: isn't that correct. They only were together really for one

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Speaker 2: week before their whole world blot with his accusation.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely true, So they literally spent a week together out

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Speaker 1: in the world as a new couple before they were

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Speaker 1: thrown into all of this drama. So come November one,

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Speaker 1: so sometime after eight thirty pm, Meredith Kercher was murdered

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Speaker 1: in the villa she shares with her flatmates. Amanda and

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Speaker 1: Raphaeli are at Rafaelei's apartment and the two of them

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Speaker 1: both switch their phone off that night around the same

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Speaker 1: time that Meredith is murdered. Now, Amanda explains that she

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Speaker 1: had been messaging with her boss, who was maybe going

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Speaker 1: to go into work that night, and he messaged her

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Speaker 1: to say that she didn't have to come in, and

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Speaker 1: she was like, great, this means I get to spend

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Speaker 1: more time with my brand new, very handsome young man

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Speaker 1: boyfriend in his apartment. And so they watched a movie

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Speaker 1: and they ate some food and they smoked a joint together.

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Speaker 1: And Raphaeli had also turned his phone off because he

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Speaker 1: didn't want to speak to his dad. He spoke to

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Speaker 1: his dad every night on the phone, He's like, no,

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Speaker 1: I want the two of us to spend uninterrupted time together.

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Speaker 1: This is very important because police see that as in

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Speaker 1: this day and age, where technology is used so frequently

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Speaker 1: to track us, to find out where we are, to

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Speaker 1: marry up locations to potential crimes, that if you turn

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Speaker 1: your phone off it almost looks like an admission of guilt, yes,

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Speaker 1: that you have done something wrong, so that is part

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Speaker 1: of the case against them. She also sends a message

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Speaker 1: to her boss before turning her phone off that says thanks,

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Speaker 1: I'll see you later. That is interpreted by police very

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Speaker 1: differently had they not been Italian, if English had been

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Speaker 1: their first language, we say that all the time, see

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Speaker 1: you later, it's part of our vernacular, but in Italy

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Speaker 1: it's taken more lick.

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Speaker 2: As if they had a plan to see each other later.

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Speaker 2: And when we're watching the series, you see Amanda trying

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Speaker 2: to explain to the police that it's just another form

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Speaker 2: of saying goodbye, and how quickly that leads to her

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Speaker 2: being implicated because again they're thinking that she's making a

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Speaker 2: plan to meet up with him and is he involved

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Speaker 2: or did she leave the apartment.

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Speaker 1: And the fact that her boss is a certain nationality

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Speaker 1: also plays into this. We'll get to that in a second.

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Speaker 1: So it's the next morning. Amanda's woken up the night

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Speaker 1: before there'd been a spill or leaking something at Raphaeli's

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Speaker 1: how she wants to go home, She needs to get

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Speaker 1: a mop because he doesn't own one, typical man, and

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Speaker 1: then she also wants to have a shower and just

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Speaker 1: get changed. And she will later on explain why she

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Speaker 1: did that to Raphaeli in a very beautiful, lovely scene

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Speaker 1: where she'd like, I just wanted to look pretty for

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Speaker 1: you and wear a dress. But so she goes home

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Speaker 1: and the front door is open, which is not unusual

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Speaker 1: because the front door that they had of this villa

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Speaker 1: was a little bit dodgy. You had to physically keylock

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Speaker 1: it for it to stay shut, and if you didn't

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Speaker 1: do that, the wind would sometimes just blow it open.

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Speaker 1: So Amanda's thinking, one of my flatmates is just run

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Speaker 1: down the street to grab something, didn't think to key

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Speaker 1: lock the door. It's blown open by itself. Yes, So

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Speaker 1: she steps inside. She walks through to her own room,

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Speaker 1: She goes to have a shower. She steps out onto

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Speaker 1: the bath mat and realizes there's some blood on the

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Speaker 1: bath mat. She also notices a little bit of it

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Speaker 1: on the sink area too. Now, for anyone who's lived

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Speaker 1: in a sharehouse full of women, we know the blood

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Speaker 1: sometimes is a part of our day to day life. Yes,

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Speaker 1: was this menstrual blood? Did someone cut themselves shaving? It's

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Speaker 1: in the bathroom.

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Speaker 2: There's so many possibilities that it could be so many

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Speaker 2: people using that bathroom.

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Speaker 1: Exactly right, So she goes, ooh, that's kind of gross,

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Speaker 1: but doesn't think that automatically jumped to someone's been murdered

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Speaker 1: in the house. She does notice, though, that someone has

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Speaker 1: gone to the toilet, they have done a pooh, and

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Speaker 1: they haven't flushed it, and that then is the first

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Speaker 1: time she fully realizes that something's not right. Yes, which

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Speaker 1: is interesting because if you live in a house full

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Speaker 1: of women, sometimes women can be pretty gross, especial when

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Speaker 1: it comes to mistrum blood. But there are certain things

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Speaker 1: that she knows her flatmates just would not do, and

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Speaker 1: that is leave an unflushed poo in the toilet. So

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Speaker 1: she leaves, and she asks Rafaeli to come back to

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Speaker 1: the house, and she's like, I don't understand what's happened.

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Speaker 1: She goes back inside realizes that one of her other

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Speaker 1: flatmates rooms has been broken into, so the window is

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Speaker 1: broken and there's glass on the ground. She's unsure if

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Speaker 1: she's been robbed because it's her flatmate's room, so she's

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Speaker 1: not sure if anything is missing, but she thinks someone

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Speaker 1: has maybe been in the house. And then when she

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Speaker 1: goes back past the bathroom, it looks like the pooh

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Speaker 1: has been flushed. She doesn't go in and have a

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Speaker 1: look at it, but it looks like it's been flushed,

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Speaker 1: so she goes, Oh my god, that person must have

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Speaker 1: been in the house while I was in the house.

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Speaker 1: So she starts to really freak out. Raphaeli turns up

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Speaker 1: and they have a look and they realize that Meredith,

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Speaker 1: one of her flat maids. Her door is locked. They

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Speaker 1: knock on it, they call her name, she doesn't answer.

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Speaker 1: They think she's not there, but they're not sure what's

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Speaker 1: going on. They call police, but two officers do turn up,

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Speaker 1: but they're not the police. They've actually called yes and

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Speaker 1: this is true, Two of the fraud investigation police turn

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Speaker 1: up because they have found two mobile phones thrown into

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Speaker 1: someone's back garden. Now they believe that the phones belong

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Speaker 1: to one of the other flatmates, not Meredith, but that

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Speaker 1: is due to a SIM card being shared amongst the girls.

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Speaker 1: They actually belong to Meredith, and so they've been taken

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Speaker 1: from her and thrown over the back fence of someone's property.

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Speaker 1: So these fraud cops turn up and they start to

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Speaker 1: ask them about the phones, and they're like, hang on,

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Speaker 1: we think someone's broken into our house. And so these

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Speaker 1: guys automatically become in charge of this crime scene.

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Speaker 3: They end up.

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Speaker 1: Calling in investigators because when the other flatmates come home

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Speaker 1: and they will realize that Meredith's door is still locked,

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Speaker 1: one of these guys kicks the door open and finds

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Speaker 1: a body. Now, Meredith has been raped, She's had her

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Speaker 1: throat cut. There is blood everywhere.

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Speaker 3: She's covered by.

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Speaker 1: Her bedding, so you can see in the crime scene

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Speaker 1: photos that one of her feet is sticking out and

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Speaker 1: you can see just the top of her head, but

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Speaker 1: there is a lot of blood. And so that is

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Speaker 1: when the homicide team is brought in and they start

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Speaker 1: to investigate. Now, this is where we have to understand

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Speaker 1: watching the Twister Tail of Amanda Knox. This is told

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Speaker 1: from Amanda's perspective. Yes, and not from the police's perspective.

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Speaker 1: The difference in the way the Italian justice system works

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Speaker 1: is very different to say, the American or the Australian

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Speaker 1: justice system. So the person who will be prosecuting you

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Speaker 1: in court is the same person who investigates the crime.

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Speaker 1: So Manini, who is a real man, is a real character,

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Speaker 1: so he's a real person, the character in the show.

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Speaker 1: So he comes on board as like the lead investigator,

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Speaker 1: but he's also going to be prosecuting this in court.

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Speaker 1: There is a detective who is also a real person,

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Speaker 1: a woman who takes an immediate dislike to Amanda. She's

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Speaker 1: one of the first to question her, and it's very

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Speaker 1: obvious that she distrusts Amanda's reaction to the crime. And

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Speaker 1: we can see this. It has been documented. Amanda does

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Speaker 1: stand outside with everybody else when the investigative team comes in,

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Speaker 1: and she's with Raphaeli, and you've got to remember they've

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Speaker 1: been together for days, they're still in the honeymoon period.

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Speaker 1: He's comforting her, she's like smiling and laughing with him,

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Speaker 1: and like they're cuddling and kissing a little bit, and

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Speaker 1: it all seems a little bit not right to the detectives.

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Speaker 1: They're like, if my flatmate, who I supposedly am quite

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Speaker 1: close to, even though we've only lived together for a

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Speaker 1: little while, if we are seeing it right, she's not

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Speaker 1: phased by her roommate being brutally murdered in her home.

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Speaker 1: So that is when things start to shift back to

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Speaker 1: the police station. They're all brought in for questioning. Meredith's friends,

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Speaker 1: the other roommates, Amanda and Raphaeli, are questioned, and it

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Speaker 1: seems like at the beginning they're already suspecting her. They

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Speaker 1: do ask her questions about her whereabouts, and they try

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Speaker 1: and find alibis. There is a lot because she's there

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Speaker 1: all day, and then it's noted that she's sitting in

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Speaker 1: Raphaeli's lap in the waiting room in the police station,

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Speaker 1: and again detectives are looking at this like this is

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Speaker 1: not the behavior of somebody whose friend has just been murdered.

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Speaker 1: Meredith's British friends are there and they too are looking

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Speaker 1: at this, thinking why is she acting this way when

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Speaker 1: Meredith has just been brutally slain in their home that

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Speaker 1: they share together. So there's a lot of questions being

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Speaker 1: asked about why a mandal did not act a certain

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Speaker 1: way in the aftermath of Meredith's death, and so then

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Speaker 1: the questioning amps up a little bit from detectives, and

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Speaker 1: then they allow her to go home. But it's already

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Speaker 1: the next day, almost and she's exhausted, and they tell her,

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Speaker 1: you need to be back here within a few hours.

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Speaker 1: So she goes home, has a shower, comes back again,

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Speaker 1: doesn't go home as a crime scene. She goes to

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Speaker 1: Rafaeli's as a shower comes back. She's exhausted, she has

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Speaker 1: had very little sleep, she doesn't really know what's going on,

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Speaker 1: and she's interrogated by police again and again and again.

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Speaker 1: And this is the interesting part of this whole thing

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Speaker 1: is that, as I said, this drama series is told

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Speaker 1: from Amanda's perspective. What is also true is that police

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Speaker 1: did not record this interrogation. Yes, we will never know

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Speaker 1: exactly what happened in that room. There is no evidence

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Speaker 1: to fall back on, there is no video. Amanda at

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Speaker 1: that time did not speak great Italian. She's hearing all

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Speaker 1: of this through an interpreter at a time where she's tired,

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Speaker 1: doesn't know what's going on. So her interpretation of it

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Speaker 1: is that they essentially coerced her into an admission of guilt.

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Speaker 1: So this is a little bit of what the interrogation

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Speaker 1: sounds like from Amanda's perspective in the Twist Tail of Amanda.

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Speaker 4: Knox, Remember, it's interesting listening to that and knowing how

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Speaker 4: much of a hand Amanda Knox had in not just

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Speaker 4: the creation of the show and the behind the scenes

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Speaker 4: and productions she's an executive producer, but she also gave

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Speaker 4: so much information to the writers and almost guided them

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Speaker 4: step by step of how she.

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Speaker 2: Wanted to eat to play out and how it came

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Speaker 2: from her memory. And then she even helped write some

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Speaker 2: of the episodes. And it's like they're looking back on

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Speaker 2: this very specific moment of media attention, like those moments

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Speaker 2: where she and Rafaeli are outside the house and they're hugging,

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Speaker 2: and that's the moment we're in the series, and in

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Speaker 2: real life we know the police kind of turned against them,

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Speaker 2: and both of them have looked back on that time,

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Speaker 2: and I think you can see it come through the

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Speaker 2: series because we're hearing it from Amanda's point of view,

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Speaker 2: is that she was quite shell shocked, and so she

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Speaker 2: was being very physical towards him because that's how she

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Speaker 2: deals with trauma. And he was almost clocking how it

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Speaker 2: looked to people around them. But he later on said

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Speaker 2: in his own memoir that he wrote about the situation.

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Speaker 3: That he thought it was too cold to be.

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Speaker 2: Pushing her away in that moment where she was wanting

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Speaker 2: to be very affectionate, wanting to sit in his lap.

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Speaker 3: It was like a comfort thing.

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Speaker 2: And even scenes where you see her doing like leading integration,

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Speaker 2: like she does the splits in the waiting room and

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Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff, that all really happened, but

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Speaker 2: it's all just like a fear response from her as

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Speaker 2: what she's saying. And as we get led into the

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Speaker 2: interior gate. It's really interesting because as you're saying, there's

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Speaker 2: no film, there's no video of that moment. Everyone who's

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Speaker 2: in that room has a different story. But the camera

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Speaker 2: work and the way that they shape it to the

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Speaker 2: audience is almost like you're supposed to see it so

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Speaker 2: directly through Amanda's eyes, that like the camera frame keeps

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Speaker 2: getting smaller, the noises keep getting louder, they're getting repetitive.

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Speaker 2: It's all these kind of sensory tricks that exactly all

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Speaker 2: these sensory tricks that are laid over that are meant

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Speaker 2: to almost like make you feel as a viewer that

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Speaker 2: you're being interrogated to. The idea is like your hard

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Speaker 2: is supposed to start beating fast, you're supposed to start

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Speaker 2: getting in like a final flight situation. So when she

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Speaker 2: yells out Patrick's name at the end, it's almost like

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Speaker 2: this release of like wanting to know the escape of

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Speaker 2: exactly exactly because she's given them what they want in

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Speaker 2: that moment. So it's a really interesting twist of putting

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Speaker 2: you in Amanda's shoes. And I guess maybe that explains

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Speaker 2: what happened next if you're looking at the real crime.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you heard there. She says it was Patrick,

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Speaker 1: and Patrick is her boss at the bar, Patrick Mumba,

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Speaker 1: who is an African man who has immigrated to Italy

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Speaker 1: and he's opened this bar. Police had found a hair

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Speaker 1: in Meredith Kirch's bedroom which matched an African man. There

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Speaker 1: was a young black man living in the apartment downstairs

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Speaker 1: and he was terrified to hear that there was a

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Speaker 1: hair that potentially linked to him. But then they found

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Speaker 1: out that the person that Amanda had texted I'll see

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Speaker 1: you later, which they took literally, that man was also

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Speaker 1: of African origin. And so for them, puzzle pieces started

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Speaker 1: to click into place. Amanda had obviously organized to meet

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Speaker 1: this man at some stage that night, and that man

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Speaker 1: has hair that matches the one that's on the scene,

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Speaker 1: so it all makes sense to them. So she tells

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Speaker 1: them that Patrick did it, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: the interrogation stops. And as we know now, and what

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Speaker 1: you do learn about in the drama series and the

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Speaker 1: documentary too that Amanda Knox has made about this, is

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Speaker 1: that is a very well known interrogation technique. It is

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Speaker 1: one that police had been using for a very long time,

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Speaker 1: and we've seen cases be overturned like the Central Park

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Speaker 1: five for example, the same interrogation technique was used on

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Speaker 1: them and they falsely confess to a murder that they

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Speaker 1: did not commit. And so we've seen it happen before

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Speaker 1: where if you just layer on the pressure and you

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Speaker 1: get people to think that maybe then remembering something wrong,

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Speaker 1: and then you plan to see that potentially it happened

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Speaker 1: this way, like maybe you did leave the apartment that night,

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Speaker 1: maybe you did meet with Patrick, maybe you did go

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Speaker 1: back to your apartment, and then they start to make

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Speaker 1: you believe, under stress and duress that you are wrong

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Speaker 1: and they are right, and so to stop it, all

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Speaker 1: you can do is admit. And so that is what

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Speaker 1: we're seeing play out from Amanda's perspective. Now, the detectives

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Speaker 1: they say that it did not play out like that,

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Speaker 1: that that interrogation did not happen like that. Also, Amanda

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Speaker 1: claimed she was hit in the head a couple of

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Speaker 1: times during it, which they say did not happen. And

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Speaker 1: they say that at no stage did they plant to

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Speaker 1: seed that it was Patrick like that came from her.

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Speaker 1: They said that they did not do that. So we

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Speaker 1: can't know what the truth is in amongst all of that.

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Speaker 1: So moving on, It's now November nineteen, so it's eighteen

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Speaker 1: days since Meredith's murder, and police announced that there is

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Speaker 1: actually a new suspect. They've arrested Patrick, Amanda, and Raphaeli

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Speaker 1: at this stage, and they realized that a man who

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Speaker 1: had been arrested a few days before Merediths murder for

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Speaker 1: breaking into a kindergarten, essentially that he is actually the

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Speaker 1: suspect linked to Merediths murder. His name is Rudy Gadet.

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Speaker 1: He is also an African immigrant into Italy and he

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Speaker 1: had a rap sheet robberies, various crimes against women like

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Speaker 1: so he really fit them. So when they figured out

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Speaker 1: that Rudy was their guy, they had to let Patrick

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Speaker 1: go because his alibis stood.

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Speaker 3: Up and was checked.

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Speaker 1: And they did manage to find Rudy Gadet at a

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Speaker 1: train station and they arrest him. Now Amanda and RAPHAELI

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Speaker 1: at this stage think okay, they've finally found the murderer.

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Speaker 1: They will let us go. No, that is not what happened.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: In fact, police ramp up their involvement and they create

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Speaker 1: a narrative that there was some kind of sexual nature

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Speaker 1: to the crime. Obviously, Meredith was raped, so that was

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Speaker 1: already where they were being led. But they believed that

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Speaker 1: it was more than just a man breaking in and

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Speaker 1: raping Meredith. That Amanda and Rafaeley were playing some kind

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Speaker 1: of game and they wanted to involve Meredith and she

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Speaker 1: didn't want to and that's why she was killed. They

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Speaker 1: also had been collecting DNA from the scene, and this

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Speaker 1: is what will bring them unstuck. Later on down the

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Speaker 1: track they film the entire thing. They find DNA of

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Speaker 1: merediths on a knife that has both Amanda and Rafaele's

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Speaker 1: DNA on it. Also it was it Rafaele's apartment. They

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Speaker 1: also find some of Rafaele's DNA on a brass strap

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Speaker 1: that looks to have been broken off in some kind

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Speaker 1: of scuffle, but as well later find out, those two

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Speaker 1: were then eventually thrown out, So Rudy Gudet asks for

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Speaker 1: a separate trial, and he's fast tracked so with before

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Speaker 1: Amanda and Rafaelli even make it to court. He is

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Speaker 1: found guilty, sent to jail, and sentenced, so like he's

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Speaker 1: over and done with. So then later Amanda and Rafaeli

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Speaker 1: go to trial, and at this stage is when the

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Speaker 1: media really starts to sink its teeth into this story.

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Speaker 1: Back in the day it was MySpace, they'd trolled through

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Speaker 1: Amanda's MySpace and found every picture that made her look

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Speaker 1: even vaguely bad, and they start referring to her by

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Speaker 1: a nickname Foxy Noxy, which sounds terrible but was actually

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Speaker 1: a nickname given to her when she was playing soccer

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Speaker 1: as a child, and they made her into this kind

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Speaker 1: of vixen character who obviously was doing this for some

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Speaker 1: kind of sexual gratification and then turned on Meredith in

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Speaker 1: the moment. So if we fast forward now, too. December four,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, the jury finds a Manda in

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Speaker 1: Rafaeli guilty, which comes as a real shock to everybody

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Speaker 1: because the way that that case was handled, the prosecutors

399
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Speaker 1: didn't hand over a lot of the evidence until very late.

400
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Speaker 1: They didn't have a chance to refute a lot of it.

401
00:21:11,111 --> 00:21:13,232
Speaker 1: They were really kind of flying by the seat of

402
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Speaker 1: their pants a lot of these junctures of the trial,

403
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Speaker 1: and they found guilty and they're sent off to prison,

404
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Speaker 1: and the two of them are so shell shocked they

405
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Speaker 1: don't really know what to do. Amanda claims, then that's

406
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Speaker 1: when she really started to research her own investigation. And

407
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Speaker 1: by this stage she's becoming more fluent in Italian, so

408
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Speaker 1: she can redocumentation better and she can understand the process

409
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Speaker 1: is a bit better. But the media has really sunk

410
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Speaker 1: its teeth into the point where every little thing is

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Speaker 1: being leaked of hers to the press. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: and this is true in the drama, when she was

413
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Speaker 1: admitted into prison, they took a blood test and they

414
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Speaker 1: falsely found her positive for HIV and she was told basically,

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Speaker 1: that's it, you have HIV. And you know, in the

416
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Speaker 1: early two thousands, we didn't treat it as well as

417
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Speaker 1: what we do in twenty twenty five. It was a

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Speaker 1: terrifying diagnosis then, but she was kind of just told, oh, yep,

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Speaker 1: that's it, and then to write a list of men

420
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Speaker 1: that she potentially had sexual contact with so that they

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Speaker 1: can be contacted. That list was then stolen from her

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Speaker 1: cell and given to the media to paint another picture

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Speaker 1: of just how immoral that this young American girl was. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: there is an appeal, so twenty eleven they go back

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Speaker 1: to court on appeal. This is when the DNA evidence

426
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Speaker 1: becomes crucial. So they watch the video of how the

427
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Speaker 1: DNA collection process was handled, and you can see in

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Speaker 1: the investigation's own video evidence that they handled it incorrectly. So,

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Speaker 1: just as an example, that brass strap that we spoke

430
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Speaker 1: about before, in the first video evidence, we can see

431
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Speaker 1: it's underneath Meredith's pillow, and then by the next time

432
00:22:52,272 --> 00:22:54,831
Speaker 1: that they collect that evidence, it's on the floor under

433
00:22:54,871 --> 00:22:55,711
Speaker 1: the corner of a rug.

434
00:22:55,792 --> 00:22:56,831
Speaker 3: So it's been contaminated.

435
00:22:56,992 --> 00:23:00,231
Speaker 2: In the drama series, and there's a question of like

436
00:23:00,272 --> 00:23:02,712
Speaker 2: how much is it being contaminated, and the person says,

437
00:23:02,712 --> 00:23:04,831
Speaker 2: like it doesn't actually matter because the fact that it's

438
00:23:04,831 --> 00:23:07,552
Speaker 2: being moved and handled already made exactly.

439
00:23:08,232 --> 00:23:10,912
Speaker 1: Exactly right, and you can see. And in the original

440
00:23:10,992 --> 00:23:13,231
Speaker 1: trial they looked at that brashtup that obviously it had

441
00:23:13,232 --> 00:23:17,112
Speaker 1: been forcefully pulled apart and like the prongs.

442
00:23:16,712 --> 00:23:17,751
Speaker 3: Were pulled apart.

443
00:23:18,032 --> 00:23:20,071
Speaker 1: But really what had happened is it's obviously been stood

444
00:23:20,111 --> 00:23:21,951
Speaker 1: on while it's on the floor, and you can see

445
00:23:21,992 --> 00:23:24,311
Speaker 1: that in the evidence between when you first see it

446
00:23:24,351 --> 00:23:26,352
Speaker 1: and when you second see it. And then as far

447
00:23:26,391 --> 00:23:29,151
Speaker 1: as the DNA on the knife is concerned, there was

448
00:23:29,192 --> 00:23:32,191
Speaker 1: so little trace evidence that they had to override the

449
00:23:32,272 --> 00:23:35,831
Speaker 1: DNA testing machine in order for it to register. And

450
00:23:36,151 --> 00:23:38,151
Speaker 1: they were questioned in court about that, and they said,

451
00:23:38,151 --> 00:23:41,552
Speaker 1: if you didn't override that machine, wouldn't have found trace

452
00:23:41,671 --> 00:23:43,792
Speaker 1: DNA of all three of them, and they said, probably

453
00:23:43,831 --> 00:23:47,631
Speaker 1: not of Meridith's DNA. So and also they found that

454
00:23:47,671 --> 00:23:50,311
Speaker 1: the knife had been transported in a box that had

455
00:23:50,311 --> 00:23:52,391
Speaker 1: had other things in it, so it was it was

456
00:23:52,431 --> 00:23:53,192
Speaker 1: poorly handled.

457
00:23:53,232 --> 00:23:54,871
Speaker 3: So they were acquitted.

458
00:23:55,351 --> 00:23:58,792
Speaker 1: After that, Amanda goes home to the US, Rafaeli attempts

459
00:23:58,792 --> 00:24:02,632
Speaker 1: to get on with his life. Amanda and Raphaeley again

460
00:24:03,792 --> 00:24:06,912
Speaker 1: brought to trial in Italy. They decided to secute them

461
00:24:06,992 --> 00:24:09,992
Speaker 1: they are found guilty. The next time around, Amanda does

462
00:24:10,032 --> 00:24:13,511
Speaker 1: not return to Italy from the US. Raphaeli does eventually

463
00:24:13,752 --> 00:24:16,591
Speaker 1: return to Italy to try and defend himself, and then

464
00:24:16,752 --> 00:24:20,311
Speaker 1: there is another appeal on that and they do then

465
00:24:20,831 --> 00:24:24,192
Speaker 1: equit them and that's it. Case closed. So this goes

466
00:24:24,232 --> 00:24:27,111
Speaker 1: on for quite a few years. But as we can see,

467
00:24:27,151 --> 00:24:29,911
Speaker 1: there is a lot of truth in the drama the

468
00:24:29,911 --> 00:24:32,071
Speaker 1: way that it's depicted. But also we can never know

469
00:24:33,192 --> 00:24:35,471
Speaker 1: what exactly happened in some of these situations because it

470
00:24:35,512 --> 00:24:36,552
Speaker 1: is not documented.

471
00:24:36,831 --> 00:24:38,912
Speaker 2: Yes, so it's very much from her point of view

472
00:24:38,992 --> 00:24:41,272
Speaker 2: and her experience and her take on it. So in

473
00:24:41,311 --> 00:24:43,192
Speaker 2: that case, it's not meant to be I don't think

474
00:24:43,272 --> 00:24:46,191
Speaker 2: watched as a factual program. It's more there to just

475
00:24:46,232 --> 00:24:48,512
Speaker 2: see it through her eyes. And for a lot of people,

476
00:24:48,552 --> 00:24:50,711
Speaker 2: they're coming to this story for nearly the first time

477
00:24:50,752 --> 00:24:51,552
Speaker 2: through this drama.

478
00:24:51,792 --> 00:24:54,191
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you were, like I said, understanding it

479
00:24:54,232 --> 00:24:57,351
Speaker 1: from just media reports, the way that she was portrayed

480
00:24:57,512 --> 00:25:02,711
Speaker 1: was interesting, that she had become this kind of demon girl,

481
00:25:02,992 --> 00:25:06,952
Speaker 1: this American demon sexual deviant that they really pay her as,

482
00:25:06,952 --> 00:25:09,551
Speaker 1: and it was widely believed in the press that she

483
00:25:09,792 --> 00:25:12,911
Speaker 1: was some kind of awful murderer who was in it

484
00:25:12,911 --> 00:25:13,792
Speaker 1: for sexual pleasure.

485
00:25:13,992 --> 00:25:16,032
Speaker 2: Yes, that she was like a sex craze, meaning and

486
00:25:16,111 --> 00:25:17,911
Speaker 2: to be honest, like I do understand. I mean I

487
00:25:17,952 --> 00:25:21,551
Speaker 2: don't understand of obviously the horrific side of this, of

488
00:25:21,591 --> 00:25:24,912
Speaker 2: like taking a murder investigation and demonizing someone who had

489
00:25:24,952 --> 00:25:27,311
Speaker 2: that stage hadn't been found guilty and was later acquitted.

490
00:25:27,552 --> 00:25:29,911
Speaker 2: But I do understand because it's like a perfect storm

491
00:25:29,952 --> 00:25:33,032
Speaker 2: of everything that the media in some parts thrives on,

492
00:25:33,111 --> 00:25:36,911
Speaker 2: but also what consumers want, like nothing sells better and

493
00:25:36,952 --> 00:25:40,391
Speaker 2: nothing gets better numbers or more attention than a beautiful

494
00:25:40,512 --> 00:25:43,391
Speaker 2: young woman, especially a beautiful young white woman at the

495
00:25:43,391 --> 00:25:47,751
Speaker 2: center of some sort of very intense and gruesome crime.

496
00:25:47,831 --> 00:25:50,552
Speaker 2: It's like all of these different facets of society coming together.

497
00:25:50,752 --> 00:25:52,631
Speaker 1: And who doesn't respond in the moment like we would

498
00:25:52,631 --> 00:25:55,231
Speaker 1: expect someone to. And she does kind of explain that

499
00:25:55,232 --> 00:25:57,271
Speaker 1: she has a bit of a weird personality and she

500
00:25:57,311 --> 00:25:59,631
Speaker 1: doesn't always act in a way that people understand, and

501
00:26:00,391 --> 00:26:03,191
Speaker 1: as we know now we understand not everyone reacts the same.

502
00:26:03,591 --> 00:26:05,272
Speaker 1: So it is really interesting. But also to where I

503
00:26:05,272 --> 00:26:08,071
Speaker 1: read an article by an Italian journalist who was, like

504
00:26:08,151 --> 00:26:10,792
Speaker 1: everyone said, the Italian media was out to get her

505
00:26:10,831 --> 00:26:13,871
Speaker 1: and demonize her, and that is partly true, but it

506
00:26:14,151 --> 00:26:18,231
Speaker 1: was more the American press and others who picked up

507
00:26:18,232 --> 00:26:19,151
Speaker 1: on that and ran with it.

508
00:26:19,232 --> 00:26:21,831
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And we know from looking back at the

509
00:26:21,831 --> 00:26:25,591
Speaker 2: coverage that so many American news outlets sent whole news teams,

510
00:26:25,591 --> 00:26:28,512
Speaker 2: camera people, reporters over there who were there for months

511
00:26:28,552 --> 00:26:31,431
Speaker 2: at a time, camped in front of the crime scene,

512
00:26:31,472 --> 00:26:34,831
Speaker 2: camped outside of the prison, the courthouse, following Amanda's family

513
00:26:34,871 --> 00:26:36,992
Speaker 2: around and people involved in the story. And a lot

514
00:26:36,992 --> 00:26:39,351
Speaker 2: of the story came from just images that they would

515
00:26:39,391 --> 00:26:42,792
Speaker 2: capture of her going in and out of different court proceedings,

516
00:26:42,831 --> 00:26:44,431
Speaker 2: and not just what was in the court room at

517
00:26:44,431 --> 00:26:46,031
Speaker 2: the time. And if you look at just the pictures

518
00:26:46,032 --> 00:26:48,032
Speaker 2: and the videos at the time, I mean, I know,

519
00:26:48,071 --> 00:26:49,831
Speaker 2: we're looking through it through a lens of like the

520
00:26:49,911 --> 00:26:51,752
Speaker 2: story being fed at the time, but she does look

521
00:26:51,831 --> 00:26:54,431
Speaker 2: very guilty if you look at just the media coverage,

522
00:26:54,472 --> 00:26:57,871
Speaker 2: she does look like a vixen who orchestrated to kill

523
00:26:57,911 --> 00:27:00,752
Speaker 2: someone because of the pictures they've chose to run, because

524
00:27:00,792 --> 00:27:03,311
Speaker 2: of the videos they showed, and because she wasn't acting

525
00:27:03,752 --> 00:27:05,752
Speaker 2: like a perfect victim of how you would expect someone

526
00:27:05,831 --> 00:27:07,032
Speaker 2: that situation to react.

527
00:27:07,192 --> 00:27:09,512
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is really interesting to watch this drama

528
00:27:10,232 --> 00:27:12,431
Speaker 1: understanding the true crime behind it because a lot of

529
00:27:12,431 --> 00:27:14,751
Speaker 1: it is factual, like a lot of it is, and

530
00:27:14,792 --> 00:27:19,391
Speaker 1: their recreation of the crime scene. The court proceedings weren't

531
00:27:19,391 --> 00:27:21,911
Speaker 1: recorded either, so we don't know exactly. They were behind

532
00:27:21,911 --> 00:27:23,831
Speaker 1: closed doors, so we don't know exactly what happened there,

533
00:27:23,831 --> 00:27:26,912
Speaker 1: But there were photographers in the courtroom that captured these

534
00:27:26,952 --> 00:27:31,231
Speaker 1: moments too, and they really recreated some of that incredibly well,

535
00:27:31,512 --> 00:27:34,152
Speaker 1: to the point where when I was looking at some photos,

536
00:27:34,151 --> 00:27:35,591
Speaker 1: I had to stop myself and go, hang on, is

537
00:27:35,591 --> 00:27:38,071
Speaker 1: that the real Amanda Knox or is that the actress

538
00:27:38,111 --> 00:27:41,071
Speaker 1: playing Amanda Knox? Because they did a really faithful recreation

539
00:27:41,351 --> 00:27:45,751
Speaker 1: of her outfits, the apartment, inside the apartment, which was

540
00:27:45,911 --> 00:27:48,831
Speaker 1: really quite incredible. I scrolled through the crime scene photos

541
00:27:48,871 --> 00:27:50,751
Speaker 1: myself and how to look at what it really looked like,

542
00:27:50,831 --> 00:27:53,392
Speaker 1: and it really does. They've done a very faithful job

543
00:27:53,431 --> 00:27:54,231
Speaker 1: at recreating it.

544
00:27:54,552 --> 00:27:56,991
Speaker 2: And that's part of the reason getting into why this

545
00:27:57,151 --> 00:27:59,552
Speaker 2: TV show exists, is that they wanted to be really

546
00:27:59,591 --> 00:28:01,351
Speaker 2: faithful to the story. And obviously there's a lot of

547
00:28:01,391 --> 00:28:03,552
Speaker 2: back and forth over whether the TV show.

548
00:28:03,591 --> 00:28:04,591
Speaker 3: Should exist or not.

549
00:28:04,871 --> 00:28:07,631
Speaker 2: Like even people who don't have any thoughts on whether

550
00:28:07,752 --> 00:28:11,911
Speaker 2: or not she's guilty or what happened have a bit

551
00:28:11,952 --> 00:28:14,272
Speaker 2: of an issue of one a story like this being

552
00:28:14,391 --> 00:28:16,831
Speaker 2: dredged up, but too if it was even necessary to

553
00:28:16,871 --> 00:28:20,272
Speaker 2: put it into like the entertainment drama space. Because since

554
00:28:20,311 --> 00:28:23,591
Speaker 2: Amanda Knox was acquitted that final time, she's written two

555
00:28:23,631 --> 00:28:27,952
Speaker 2: different memoirs, she's done a podcast, there's so many documentaries,

556
00:28:27,952 --> 00:28:29,831
Speaker 2: some that she's had a hand and some that she hasn't.

557
00:28:29,911 --> 00:28:32,911
Speaker 2: She's done well over one hundred interviews at this stage,

558
00:28:33,032 --> 00:28:34,992
Speaker 2: just because she's done so many.

559
00:28:35,712 --> 00:28:37,431
Speaker 1: Here at Muma Mia, which will play a little in

560
00:28:37,472 --> 00:28:38,152
Speaker 1: a minute.

561
00:28:37,911 --> 00:28:40,671
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, like she has really told her story. So

562
00:28:41,192 --> 00:28:43,512
Speaker 2: a lot of people were thinking, like why go back

563
00:28:43,552 --> 00:28:46,312
Speaker 2: for like another sip from the well to this story.

564
00:28:46,712 --> 00:28:49,152
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of questions and commentary around whether

565
00:28:49,192 --> 00:28:50,951
Speaker 2: or not this TV show should have been made and

566
00:28:50,952 --> 00:28:53,431
Speaker 2: should it exist. I think we both have strong feelings

567
00:28:53,431 --> 00:28:55,471
Speaker 2: on that. There's a lot of strong feelings from the public,

568
00:28:55,472 --> 00:28:58,991
Speaker 2: which is what we're going to get into next. So

569
00:28:59,272 --> 00:29:01,952
Speaker 2: you've say the Amanda Knox case so closely now you've

570
00:29:01,952 --> 00:29:04,152
Speaker 2: watched the full drama series. I know you've seen all

571
00:29:04,192 --> 00:29:06,552
Speaker 2: of the commentary from people who have watched it. The

572
00:29:06,552 --> 00:29:08,991
Speaker 2: family is involved. What's your thought on whether or not

573
00:29:09,032 --> 00:29:10,471
Speaker 2: this TV show should exist?

574
00:29:10,592 --> 00:29:12,072
Speaker 1: I'm so conflicted.

575
00:29:12,632 --> 00:29:14,352
Speaker 3: Yeah, me too. Isn't that interesting?

576
00:29:14,512 --> 00:29:17,152
Speaker 2: Yeah, even everything we've consumed, usually at this stage of

577
00:29:17,152 --> 00:29:19,352
Speaker 2: the game, I would have a very clear view of

578
00:29:19,392 --> 00:29:21,872
Speaker 2: whether or not something like this should have been made.

579
00:29:21,952 --> 00:29:24,912
Speaker 2: But like everything else with this story, it's like very complex.

580
00:29:24,632 --> 00:29:28,032
Speaker 1: It is, And I think the biggest thing is that

581
00:29:28,712 --> 00:29:31,792
Speaker 1: this will never be Meredith Kirtch's story. Yes, and that

582
00:29:31,952 --> 00:29:34,312
Speaker 1: is what is touched on a little bit in the

583
00:29:34,312 --> 00:29:37,432
Speaker 1: Twister Tale of Amanda Knox, that it should be about

584
00:29:37,592 --> 00:29:40,752
Speaker 1: a beautiful young woman whose life was cut tragically. Sure,

585
00:29:41,472 --> 00:29:43,832
Speaker 1: and it should be about the man who did that

586
00:29:43,911 --> 00:29:46,751
Speaker 1: to her and the fact that he is spending his

587
00:29:46,872 --> 00:29:48,952
Speaker 1: life behind bars, although I believe he's been released now.

588
00:29:49,072 --> 00:29:51,991
Speaker 1: So why is it never about Meredith? Why is it

589
00:29:52,032 --> 00:29:56,192
Speaker 1: always about Amanda? And she acknowledges that, and she acknowledges

590
00:29:56,232 --> 00:29:59,511
Speaker 1: that Meredith is now essentially her story. But for the

591
00:29:59,552 --> 00:30:02,471
Speaker 1: family of Meredith, like I can fully understand why they

592
00:30:02,472 --> 00:30:04,272
Speaker 1: have responded the way they have, Like, why are we

593
00:30:04,352 --> 00:30:06,911
Speaker 1: doing this again? Why do we keep talking about this story,

594
00:30:07,072 --> 00:30:10,472
Speaker 1: like this is Amanda's story, but also if you put

595
00:30:10,472 --> 00:30:14,152
Speaker 1: yourself in Amanda shoes and someone falsely accused me of murder,

596
00:30:14,232 --> 00:30:17,752
Speaker 1: sent me to prison and really dragged my name through

597
00:30:17,792 --> 00:30:21,272
Speaker 1: the mud for years and years and years, a legacy

598
00:30:21,272 --> 00:30:23,912
Speaker 1: that she still lives with to this day. There are

599
00:30:23,992 --> 00:30:26,872
Speaker 1: still legions of people who do not believe her. They

600
00:30:26,911 --> 00:30:30,392
Speaker 1: believe that she is guilty, absolutely, and they will tell her.

601
00:30:30,832 --> 00:30:33,392
Speaker 1: And there is a part in the series where she

602
00:30:33,832 --> 00:30:36,352
Speaker 1: starts to like understand the new technology that she's come

603
00:30:36,392 --> 00:30:40,191
Speaker 1: back into the world to see, and the messages she

604
00:30:40,272 --> 00:30:43,472
Speaker 1: starts to get are pretty intense, and you know, there

605
00:30:43,472 --> 00:30:45,832
Speaker 1: are death threats and you know, telling her to take

606
00:30:45,872 --> 00:30:48,872
Speaker 1: her own life, and like that's an intense thing to

607
00:30:48,872 --> 00:30:51,392
Speaker 1: deal with all the time. So would I, in Amanda

608
00:30:51,472 --> 00:30:54,152
Speaker 1: Shoes want to keep telling my story so that people

609
00:30:54,712 --> 00:30:58,511
Speaker 1: understand me better and who understand the situation better. I

610
00:30:58,592 --> 00:31:01,552
Speaker 1: guess I get it from her perspective and wanting to

611
00:31:01,592 --> 00:31:03,471
Speaker 1: set the record straight over and over and over when

612
00:31:03,472 --> 00:31:06,272
Speaker 1: people still don't believe you, Like I really understand that.

613
00:31:06,992 --> 00:31:10,472
Speaker 1: But I just I feel for Meredith's family whose story

614
00:31:10,792 --> 00:31:16,072
Speaker 1: just gets overlooked, misunderstood, And there are still people even

615
00:31:16,112 --> 00:31:18,912
Speaker 1: in Meredith's family, who aren't sure what they believe either. Yes,

616
00:31:18,992 --> 00:31:22,472
Speaker 1: So to see Amanda also profiting from this, like, that's

617
00:31:22,512 --> 00:31:24,792
Speaker 1: hard for them to see and hard for them to take.

618
00:31:24,872 --> 00:31:28,711
Speaker 1: So I'm still really conflicted. I get it, but I

619
00:31:28,712 --> 00:31:32,152
Speaker 1: don't want to see Meredith again become the victim.

620
00:31:32,632 --> 00:31:34,471
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the difficult thing of watching it is

621
00:31:34,472 --> 00:31:37,711
Speaker 2: that Meredith Kirch's family were contacted in the lead up

622
00:31:37,752 --> 00:31:40,352
Speaker 2: to the show, like before opened production, and they told

623
00:31:40,352 --> 00:31:42,112
Speaker 2: production they wanted nothing to do with it, which was

624
00:31:42,152 --> 00:31:44,511
Speaker 2: expected so they pushed on a head without it, but

625
00:31:44,712 --> 00:31:46,951
Speaker 2: it was more so when the show was released and

626
00:31:46,992 --> 00:31:49,112
Speaker 2: the fact that it's been coming out weekly and even

627
00:31:49,112 --> 00:31:51,312
Speaker 2: the lead up to that with Amanda, like releasing a

628
00:31:51,352 --> 00:31:54,272
Speaker 2: podcast and doing a lot of press around that and

629
00:31:54,312 --> 00:31:56,671
Speaker 2: seeing all those headlines come up again, and the response

630
00:31:56,712 --> 00:31:59,232
Speaker 2: from the family was always, please don't do this, Please

631
00:31:59,232 --> 00:32:01,312
Speaker 2: don't drag this up again. Please don't drag her name

632
00:32:01,352 --> 00:32:03,231
Speaker 2: in front of the world again. And it's something that

633
00:32:03,232 --> 00:32:05,632
Speaker 2: Amanda Knox does talk about quite a bit, and something

634
00:32:05,671 --> 00:32:07,952
Speaker 2: I always want to watching interviews with her find interesting

635
00:32:07,992 --> 00:32:09,951
Speaker 2: is that she often say to the interviewer, you know

636
00:32:10,072 --> 00:32:12,032
Speaker 2: my name and you know Merita's name, but do you

637
00:32:12,072 --> 00:32:14,392
Speaker 2: know the name of the man who actually committed the crime.

638
00:32:14,671 --> 00:32:16,352
Speaker 3: And a lot of the time people don't.

639
00:32:16,152 --> 00:32:19,072
Speaker 2: Know his name, and they don't know his story or

640
00:32:19,072 --> 00:32:21,671
Speaker 2: his face or anything because he's not a young woman.

641
00:32:21,792 --> 00:32:22,552
Speaker 3: And that's not an.

642
00:32:22,392 --> 00:32:24,912
Speaker 2: Exciting part of the case. But in terms of why

643
00:32:24,911 --> 00:32:27,192
Speaker 2: they made it, Amanda Knox has always said that it's

644
00:32:27,192 --> 00:32:29,312
Speaker 2: because she gave birth to a daughter and then suddenly

645
00:32:29,352 --> 00:32:31,991
Speaker 2: she realized that her daughter would be growing up in

646
00:32:32,032 --> 00:32:34,872
Speaker 2: a world where so many people still thought she was

647
00:32:34,872 --> 00:32:36,312
Speaker 2: guilty of murder, and.

648
00:32:36,392 --> 00:32:38,152
Speaker 1: She's inheriting a legacy exactly.

649
00:32:38,232 --> 00:32:40,711
Speaker 2: And it's almost like reading between the lines of listening

650
00:32:40,792 --> 00:32:43,832
Speaker 2: to a man to speak about this is that it's

651
00:32:43,832 --> 00:32:46,432
Speaker 2: almost like her last ditch effort to clear her name

652
00:32:46,472 --> 00:32:48,671
Speaker 2: through drama, because she knows how much, especially at this

653
00:32:48,671 --> 00:32:50,632
Speaker 2: point in time, right now, how much the world responds

654
00:32:50,712 --> 00:32:53,231
Speaker 2: to drama in a way that we sometimes don't respond

655
00:32:53,312 --> 00:32:57,032
Speaker 2: to an interviewer and an article. So she's written the memoirs,

656
00:32:57,192 --> 00:32:59,832
Speaker 2: she's done press to us so many times over the years,

657
00:32:59,872 --> 00:33:02,712
Speaker 2: she's done the podcast, so many people have released information

658
00:33:02,792 --> 00:33:06,112
Speaker 2: about it, and yet she only saw a drama as

659
00:33:06,112 --> 00:33:09,312
Speaker 2: they to clear her name essentially, and maybe it's because

660
00:33:09,752 --> 00:33:12,632
Speaker 2: she could have complete control over the narrative that in

661
00:33:12,671 --> 00:33:15,432
Speaker 2: a way you can't have with even a memoir or something,

662
00:33:15,431 --> 00:33:17,432
Speaker 2: because a memoir you're just reading the same voice all

663
00:33:17,472 --> 00:33:19,711
Speaker 2: the way through. With the TV show, you're seeing all

664
00:33:19,792 --> 00:33:22,632
Speaker 2: of these actors relive those moments, and like we're saying,

665
00:33:22,632 --> 00:33:25,112
Speaker 2: it was a very sensory heavy show, so you almost

666
00:33:25,112 --> 00:33:27,191
Speaker 2: feel like you've gone through it with her. And so

667
00:33:27,272 --> 00:33:29,312
Speaker 2: that idea was like people would watch the show and

668
00:33:29,352 --> 00:33:31,632
Speaker 2: it's so through her eyes that you would come out

669
00:33:31,671 --> 00:33:34,552
Speaker 2: of it believing her. And the subtext I think of

670
00:33:34,552 --> 00:33:37,512
Speaker 2: all her interviews is that she thought that was worth

671
00:33:37,832 --> 00:33:40,592
Speaker 2: bringing it up again as like one last attempt to

672
00:33:40,671 --> 00:33:41,312
Speaker 2: clear her name.

673
00:33:41,431 --> 00:33:45,032
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we are seeing this real moment for these

674
00:33:45,032 --> 00:33:48,911
Speaker 1: stories being told in this manner. So like the Menendez brothers,

675
00:33:48,911 --> 00:33:52,431
Speaker 1: for example, I had reported on their story as a

676
00:33:52,472 --> 00:33:55,271
Speaker 1: journalist many times over the years as they've kind of

677
00:33:55,472 --> 00:34:01,072
Speaker 1: attempted to be free, and I had a very preformed

678
00:34:01,152 --> 00:34:04,352
Speaker 1: opinion of whether I thought what they did was done

679
00:34:04,992 --> 00:34:07,872
Speaker 1: purely for greed, which is what they'd been positioned as

680
00:34:07,911 --> 00:34:10,431
Speaker 1: in the media and by the prosecution. And then when

681
00:34:10,431 --> 00:34:15,151
Speaker 1: you see their stories dramatized and you understand a little

682
00:34:15,152 --> 00:34:17,632
Speaker 1: bit more about what was going on behind closed doors,

683
00:34:17,712 --> 00:34:20,792
Speaker 1: and you understand that you know, maybe as children they

684
00:34:20,792 --> 00:34:23,832
Speaker 1: were abused, and so you know, you understand the crime

685
00:34:23,872 --> 00:34:26,152
Speaker 1: a little bit better. And now there are calls for

686
00:34:26,192 --> 00:34:28,392
Speaker 1: their freedom, even though they are not free as of

687
00:34:28,471 --> 00:34:31,911
Speaker 1: us recording this podcast. But I can understand why Amanda

688
00:34:32,031 --> 00:34:34,152
Speaker 1: might want to also be a part of this moment

689
00:34:34,192 --> 00:34:38,031
Speaker 1: where people are reclaiming their own narrative, especially when it's

690
00:34:38,072 --> 00:34:40,312
Speaker 1: through a drama that can take you to the place

691
00:34:40,352 --> 00:34:43,031
Speaker 1: and the time and can put you in the situation

692
00:34:43,272 --> 00:34:46,272
Speaker 1: and like if I was twenty in a foreign country

693
00:34:46,592 --> 00:34:50,712
Speaker 1: where I don't speak the language, was accused of a terrible,

694
00:34:50,832 --> 00:34:55,272
Speaker 1: terrible crime and have no family support and not understand

695
00:34:55,312 --> 00:34:58,792
Speaker 1: what's happening to me and finding myself in jail, not

696
00:34:58,911 --> 00:35:01,872
Speaker 1: even understanding what I've signed. Because the truth of the

697
00:35:01,872 --> 00:35:04,752
Speaker 1: matter is she signed a document and she didn't even

698
00:35:04,752 --> 00:35:07,431
Speaker 1: fully understand what it was she was signing, And so

699
00:35:08,352 --> 00:35:12,631
Speaker 1: to put myself in that position like that would be terrifying. Yeah,

700
00:35:12,672 --> 00:35:14,511
Speaker 1: and I don't think you get that, You're right when

701
00:35:14,511 --> 00:35:16,872
Speaker 1: you listen to her speak on a podcast or you

702
00:35:16,911 --> 00:35:19,272
Speaker 1: read her memoir it doesn't put you in the time

703
00:35:19,312 --> 00:35:22,471
Speaker 1: and place, and it doesn't make you experience that alongside her.

704
00:35:22,511 --> 00:35:25,031
Speaker 1: And I think it's actually kind of smart because I

705
00:35:25,232 --> 00:35:28,431
Speaker 1: did legitimately change my view on this case after watching.

706
00:35:28,431 --> 00:35:30,392
Speaker 2: Yeah Yeah to an extent, and again, it just nothing

707
00:35:30,471 --> 00:35:32,111
Speaker 2: kind of pulls you in like a drama. It's like

708
00:35:32,112 --> 00:35:34,272
Speaker 2: we saw this year with Apple side of vinegram Bell Gibson,

709
00:35:34,312 --> 00:35:36,392
Speaker 2: Like a lot of people knew that story, they knew

710
00:35:36,392 --> 00:35:38,591
Speaker 2: that she had lied about having cancer, but there was

711
00:35:38,632 --> 00:35:41,232
Speaker 2: this renewed kind of rally behind the victims and the

712
00:35:41,312 --> 00:35:44,512
Speaker 2: journalists involved in everything worldwide in a way that hadn't

713
00:35:44,511 --> 00:35:47,232
Speaker 2: happened even when we saw Bell Gibson giving these interviews.

714
00:35:47,632 --> 00:35:49,471
Speaker 2: And I think with the drama too, it's so many

715
00:35:49,471 --> 00:35:52,111
Speaker 2: elements of being able to control it. But also like

716
00:35:52,152 --> 00:35:54,471
Speaker 2: the choice of actress, like with Grace van Patten, who

717
00:35:54,991 --> 00:35:59,632
Speaker 2: gives this very kind of vulnerable performance, and she's acting

718
00:35:59,712 --> 00:36:01,471
Speaker 2: in a way that we didn't at least in the

719
00:36:01,471 --> 00:36:03,672
Speaker 2: clips we saw, and this was like a very strategic

720
00:36:03,712 --> 00:36:06,511
Speaker 2: thing from the production team from her because she's to

721
00:36:06,511 --> 00:36:08,631
Speaker 2: be playing a woman who's been thrust into this and

722
00:36:08,712 --> 00:36:11,752
Speaker 2: so we don't see her acting for the cameras in

723
00:36:11,752 --> 00:36:14,951
Speaker 2: the way that people think Amanda Knox did, and a

724
00:36:14,991 --> 00:36:17,911
Speaker 2: lot of effort went into casting the exact right person

725
00:36:17,991 --> 00:36:20,312
Speaker 2: for that role, which you can imagine because they didn't

726
00:36:20,312 --> 00:36:22,672
Speaker 2: want to cast an actress who might be almost painted

727
00:36:22,672 --> 00:36:25,152
Speaker 2: with the same brush that Amanda Knox is, like, is

728
00:36:25,192 --> 00:36:27,712
Speaker 2: she seen a sexualized actress? What of the roles has

729
00:36:27,752 --> 00:36:30,792
Speaker 2: she played? Will she come across as like not sympathetic

730
00:36:30,832 --> 00:36:33,071
Speaker 2: and vulnerable enough? And so there was this real call

731
00:36:33,192 --> 00:36:35,911
Speaker 2: to find a very vulnerable looking actress, which I think

732
00:36:35,951 --> 00:36:37,792
Speaker 2: Grace Van Patten, who most people would know from the

733
00:36:37,832 --> 00:36:40,352
Speaker 2: TV show Tell Me Lies, is kind of almost known

734
00:36:40,431 --> 00:36:42,992
Speaker 2: for being that type of character actress where she often

735
00:36:43,031 --> 00:36:46,951
Speaker 2: plays the more subdued, kind of almost victim character, and

736
00:36:47,031 --> 00:36:49,152
Speaker 2: it was meant to be Margaret Kawley. Originally she was

737
00:36:49,192 --> 00:36:51,352
Speaker 2: attached and they moved her out and put her into

738
00:36:51,352 --> 00:36:53,551
Speaker 2: this role. But I think the other interesting thing is

739
00:36:53,592 --> 00:36:56,312
Speaker 2: who else is involved behind the scenes of this production,

740
00:36:56,352 --> 00:36:58,552
Speaker 2: which is one of Kolowinski, which was a real surprise.

741
00:36:58,632 --> 00:37:01,112
Speaker 1: When I saw them sitting on an American TV show

742
00:37:01,232 --> 00:37:02,631
Speaker 1: on the couch next to each other, I'm like, oh,

743
00:37:02,632 --> 00:37:04,631
Speaker 1: that's an interesting lineup of guests and didn't realize they

744
00:37:04,672 --> 00:37:06,031
Speaker 1: were talking about the exact sect, the.

745
00:37:06,352 --> 00:37:08,232
Speaker 2: Very project they've been working on. So they met in

746
00:37:08,232 --> 00:37:11,991
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. They were both speaking at an event, and

747
00:37:12,112 --> 00:37:14,392
Speaker 2: Amanda said that she was like getting quite overcome and

748
00:37:14,471 --> 00:37:17,792
Speaker 2: quite stressed about publicly speaking, but also just everything about

749
00:37:17,832 --> 00:37:20,352
Speaker 2: reliving her story over and over again. And she says

750
00:37:20,392 --> 00:37:22,631
Speaker 2: she went to the green room and she was stressing out,

751
00:37:22,672 --> 00:37:26,112
Speaker 2: and Monica Lewinsky came in and they very instantly bonded,

752
00:37:26,192 --> 00:37:29,991
Speaker 2: shared stories. Monica Lewinsky was giving her tips on how

753
00:37:30,031 --> 00:37:32,312
Speaker 2: to do this next part of being in the public eye.

754
00:37:32,632 --> 00:37:36,431
Speaker 5: I've spent the majority of my adult life feeling like

755
00:37:36,471 --> 00:37:39,312
Speaker 5: no one cared what I had to say, and anything

756
00:37:39,312 --> 00:37:41,872
Speaker 5: I did say was always twisted against me. And then

757
00:37:41,911 --> 00:37:44,832
Speaker 5: I find myself invited to go give a talk for

758
00:37:44,872 --> 00:37:49,232
Speaker 5: the first time ever, and I'm utterly terrified. I also

759
00:37:49,312 --> 00:37:51,711
Speaker 5: learned that someone else is going to be speaking at

760
00:37:51,752 --> 00:37:55,672
Speaker 5: this event, and it happens to be the one and

761
00:37:55,752 --> 00:38:00,151
Speaker 5: only Monica Lewinsky, whose Vanity Fair articles and whose TED

762
00:38:00,232 --> 00:38:03,671
Speaker 5: talks have given me hope that there might be a

763
00:38:03,672 --> 00:38:08,631
Speaker 5: path forward in my life. And so I asked the organizer.

764
00:38:08,152 --> 00:38:10,551
Speaker 3: If I could, please, please please meet her.

765
00:38:11,192 --> 00:38:16,551
Speaker 6: I think Amanda was the highlight of that event that day, and.

766
00:38:16,511 --> 00:38:17,591
Speaker 4: People were so.

767
00:38:19,392 --> 00:38:22,112
Speaker 6: I think they were just so impressed by you, which

768
00:38:22,232 --> 00:38:24,111
Speaker 6: I was when we first met, and I had so

769
00:38:24,192 --> 00:38:29,551
Speaker 6: much compassion for you, and it really was kind of

770
00:38:29,551 --> 00:38:32,511
Speaker 6: the beginning of us knowing each other.

771
00:38:32,752 --> 00:38:34,911
Speaker 2: Montical Luwinski, for anyone who doesn't know, in the late

772
00:38:34,991 --> 00:38:38,432
Speaker 2: nineteen nineties, was working in the White House and said

773
00:38:38,431 --> 00:38:40,792
Speaker 2: that she had had an affair with then President Bill

774
00:38:40,832 --> 00:38:43,471
Speaker 2: Clinton and was absolutely, there's no other way to put it,

775
00:38:43,511 --> 00:38:47,511
Speaker 2: such shamed and painted to be a liar and all

776
00:38:47,551 --> 00:38:48,272
Speaker 2: of these things.

777
00:38:48,352 --> 00:38:50,672
Speaker 1: She seduced the president, yes, yeah.

778
00:38:50,511 --> 00:38:53,872
Speaker 2: And became not just a huge villain and this hatred

779
00:38:53,911 --> 00:38:56,951
Speaker 2: of the world, but also just became a mockery and

780
00:38:57,632 --> 00:39:00,431
Speaker 2: just basically the entire world turned against her. And you

781
00:39:00,471 --> 00:39:02,792
Speaker 2: talk about people being canceled, but they don't really get canceled,

782
00:39:02,792 --> 00:39:04,072
Speaker 2: but she was really canceled.

783
00:39:04,431 --> 00:39:08,832
Speaker 1: Thet jokes for like decades after that occurred, and she

784
00:39:09,272 --> 00:39:13,031
Speaker 1: has been the epitome of reclaiming the narrative exactly. And

785
00:39:13,072 --> 00:39:16,272
Speaker 1: that's where social media has actually been the most amazing

786
00:39:16,312 --> 00:39:19,432
Speaker 1: thing for some people, because she took to then Twitter,

787
00:39:19,471 --> 00:39:22,272
Speaker 1: which is now ex and we finally got to know

788
00:39:22,272 --> 00:39:26,431
Speaker 1: who Monica Lewinsky actually is and is not just this

789
00:39:27,192 --> 00:39:30,511
Speaker 1: vixen intern who happened to, you know, seduce the most

790
00:39:30,511 --> 00:39:31,431
Speaker 1: powerful man in the world.

791
00:39:31,471 --> 00:39:33,712
Speaker 3: Yes, because it did come out that she was telling

792
00:39:33,712 --> 00:39:34,112
Speaker 3: the truth.

793
00:39:34,312 --> 00:39:37,432
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, And she also has had a hand

794
00:39:37,592 --> 00:39:41,431
Speaker 1: in documentaries about that situation where she has been actually

795
00:39:41,471 --> 00:39:45,192
Speaker 1: asked about those experiences and has told them exactly what happened.

796
00:39:45,551 --> 00:39:48,951
Speaker 1: And so she's been able to really turn around being

797
00:39:49,031 --> 00:39:51,712
Speaker 1: the butt of every late night post joke for a

798
00:39:51,792 --> 00:39:54,991
Speaker 1: long time. And she talks about her mum sitting next

799
00:39:54,991 --> 00:39:57,872
Speaker 1: to her bed and like begging her not to take

800
00:39:57,911 --> 00:40:00,071
Speaker 1: her own life because of just how bad it got

801
00:40:00,112 --> 00:40:02,471
Speaker 1: for her in the late nineties and early two thousands,

802
00:40:02,832 --> 00:40:06,112
Speaker 1: and so she is now thriving because she's been able

803
00:40:06,152 --> 00:40:09,192
Speaker 1: to tell her story and be believed. So that's it

804
00:40:09,272 --> 00:40:12,071
Speaker 1: makes sense now that the two of them are working.

805
00:40:11,752 --> 00:40:14,752
Speaker 2: Together exactly, and that's why Monica wanted to be involved

806
00:40:14,872 --> 00:40:18,192
Speaker 2: in the Amanda Knox. In the televised version of her story,

807
00:40:18,551 --> 00:40:21,591
Speaker 2: she said, I can't relate to being falsely accused of

808
00:40:21,592 --> 00:40:23,912
Speaker 2: a crime like that because of her situations. A different

809
00:40:23,911 --> 00:40:26,232
Speaker 2: situation was more of a situation of public shaming, and

810
00:40:26,272 --> 00:40:28,232
Speaker 2: she's like, and I can't relate to being falsely in prison,

811
00:40:28,272 --> 00:40:29,991
Speaker 2: but I do know what it's like to have the

812
00:40:30,031 --> 00:40:31,911
Speaker 2: world turn against you and have your story not be

813
00:40:31,991 --> 00:40:35,152
Speaker 2: your own. And I think even though she had hard

814
00:40:35,232 --> 00:40:38,192
Speaker 2: evidence to show that what she said about the president

815
00:40:38,272 --> 00:40:40,872
Speaker 2: and everything that happened to her afterwards was true, a

816
00:40:40,911 --> 00:40:42,712
Speaker 2: lot of people still saw her, as you're saying, in

817
00:40:42,712 --> 00:40:44,511
Speaker 2: a different light. So when they did them, one of

818
00:40:44,551 --> 00:40:48,431
Speaker 2: Kolounsky TV series Johan vanie Feldstein played her, It's again

819
00:40:48,471 --> 00:40:50,991
Speaker 2: that whole thing of drama reshaping a narrative in the

820
00:40:50,991 --> 00:40:54,432
Speaker 2: way that factual information can't, was that brought a whole

821
00:40:54,471 --> 00:40:56,631
Speaker 2: new audience over to her site. So I think that's

822
00:40:56,632 --> 00:40:59,232
Speaker 2: why she was so instrumental on this Amanda NOx series

823
00:40:59,471 --> 00:41:02,232
Speaker 2: of being an executive producer and being able to say, like,

824
00:41:02,471 --> 00:41:04,392
Speaker 2: tell this part of the story, or don't tell this part,

825
00:41:04,511 --> 00:41:06,471
Speaker 2: or even like we don't know the extent of it.

826
00:41:06,511 --> 00:41:08,191
Speaker 2: But I think she would even be coaching her through

827
00:41:08,232 --> 00:41:10,352
Speaker 2: the press around it and everything to sort of shape

828
00:41:10,352 --> 00:41:13,352
Speaker 2: it as like the perfect kind of reclaiming of her story.

829
00:41:13,392 --> 00:41:17,431
Speaker 2: Because in the series, Amanda does become this strong hero,

830
00:41:17,551 --> 00:41:19,152
Speaker 2: like she always becomes like a young adult, like a

831
00:41:19,152 --> 00:41:21,431
Speaker 2: cat and has Everdeen or something. Towards the end and off,

832
00:41:21,431 --> 00:41:23,911
Speaker 2: you felt that it was done in a very careful

833
00:41:23,911 --> 00:41:26,752
Speaker 2: way for her to first be a victim and then

834
00:41:26,752 --> 00:41:29,151
Speaker 2: they kind of made her into this hero, and like

835
00:41:29,312 --> 00:41:31,352
Speaker 2: she's not just clearing her own name, but she's standing

836
00:41:31,431 --> 00:41:33,312
Speaker 2: up against the systems.

837
00:41:32,672 --> 00:41:33,632
Speaker 1: Becoming an advocate for you.

838
00:41:34,832 --> 00:41:36,712
Speaker 2: And she's walking into the courtroom and saying, like, I

839
00:41:36,752 --> 00:41:38,631
Speaker 2: speak the language, I do this, I've done the work.

840
00:41:38,672 --> 00:41:41,032
Speaker 2: And then we see her coming back into the prison

841
00:41:41,031 --> 00:41:43,511
Speaker 2: and everyone applauding for her and cheering for her and

842
00:41:43,551 --> 00:41:45,792
Speaker 2: her being seen as this savior.

843
00:41:46,072 --> 00:41:48,752
Speaker 1: Okay, I hold that thought, Laura Brodnick, because I think

844
00:41:49,112 --> 00:41:52,312
Speaker 1: what really shook me a little bit watching this is

845
00:41:52,431 --> 00:41:55,872
Speaker 1: that break from reality into fantasy that happens quite regularly

846
00:41:55,911 --> 00:41:57,712
Speaker 1: throughout the entire series. So I want to get your

847
00:41:57,712 --> 00:42:03,312
Speaker 1: take on exactly why that is and what is happening next. So,

848
00:42:03,991 --> 00:42:06,191
Speaker 1: as we mentioned just before the break, then if you're

849
00:42:06,192 --> 00:42:08,951
Speaker 1: watching this series, you would have noticed that sometimes it's

850
00:42:09,232 --> 00:42:12,431
Speaker 1: Amanda telling her story and she does a little bit

851
00:42:12,431 --> 00:42:15,152
Speaker 1: of that via narration, which I know some people despise.

852
00:42:15,232 --> 00:42:18,272
Speaker 1: I actually quite like it. But then it'll cut to

853
00:42:18,632 --> 00:42:22,071
Speaker 1: really fanciful scenes. In one she's a child and her

854
00:42:22,112 --> 00:42:25,471
Speaker 1: teddy bears are applauding her for performing a little at

855
00:42:25,471 --> 00:42:28,951
Speaker 1: home dance, and often it's like there's one in a

856
00:42:28,991 --> 00:42:32,071
Speaker 1: library where she's like floating around on the ladder that

857
00:42:32,272 --> 00:42:35,271
Speaker 1: goes up and rolls around, Like it's this weird pull

858
00:42:35,312 --> 00:42:36,712
Speaker 1: from reality into fantasy.

859
00:42:36,752 --> 00:42:37,592
Speaker 3: What is that about.

860
00:42:38,192 --> 00:42:40,631
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting to bring up because that is the

861
00:42:40,672 --> 00:42:42,672
Speaker 2: part of the show that a lot of critics and

862
00:42:42,752 --> 00:42:46,392
Speaker 2: viewers had the most issue with, because a lot of

863
00:42:46,392 --> 00:42:48,951
Speaker 2: what people gave the show a pass for is the

864
00:42:49,031 --> 00:42:51,711
Speaker 2: fact that they said Amanda was trying to tell her

865
00:42:51,752 --> 00:42:54,191
Speaker 2: story and also on a Meredith story, and we see

866
00:42:54,192 --> 00:42:56,031
Speaker 2: a bit of a montage of Meredith at the end

867
00:42:56,352 --> 00:42:57,991
Speaker 2: as a sort of like just remember she's at the

868
00:42:57,991 --> 00:43:00,711
Speaker 2: center of this. But a lot of people feel that

869
00:43:00,712 --> 00:43:03,752
Speaker 2: that feels very disingenuous when they also added these fantasy

870
00:43:03,792 --> 00:43:06,312
Speaker 2: elements to it, but it was very specific choice because

871
00:43:06,312 --> 00:43:09,312
Speaker 2: Amanda Knox and the team said that they wanted to

872
00:43:09,312 --> 00:43:12,792
Speaker 2: add all these facets of magical realism and magical realism

873
00:43:12,832 --> 00:43:14,751
Speaker 2: if you're not across the whole fantasy kind of world,

874
00:43:14,792 --> 00:43:17,352
Speaker 2: like we have high fantasy, which is a whole world

875
00:43:17,392 --> 00:43:20,951
Speaker 2: being recreated with its whole different ways of being.

876
00:43:20,752 --> 00:43:21,672
Speaker 3: In its own rules.

877
00:43:21,712 --> 00:43:24,352
Speaker 2: And then you have more of like fantasy, which is

878
00:43:24,471 --> 00:43:26,832
Speaker 2: very kind of old school, like a whole world that's

879
00:43:26,872 --> 00:43:29,792
Speaker 2: touched by magic. And then you have magical realism, which

880
00:43:29,832 --> 00:43:32,151
Speaker 2: is a story that takes place in our world as

881
00:43:32,232 --> 00:43:35,352
Speaker 2: it is now and there's one tiny string of magic

882
00:43:35,431 --> 00:43:37,312
Speaker 2: and that's what we kind of see from Amanda's point

883
00:43:37,312 --> 00:43:39,592
Speaker 2: of view, and they wanted to do that. It's interesting

884
00:43:39,592 --> 00:43:41,592
Speaker 2: because at the top of the series you almost feel

885
00:43:41,592 --> 00:43:43,911
Speaker 2: like you're watching like a bit of an Italian kind

886
00:43:43,951 --> 00:43:46,991
Speaker 2: of romantic drama, and that's very deliberate from them, because

887
00:43:46,991 --> 00:43:49,112
Speaker 2: they wanted to show that it's all about putting you

888
00:43:49,152 --> 00:43:51,952
Speaker 2: in Amanda's mind and in her mind. At the start

889
00:43:51,991 --> 00:43:53,951
Speaker 2: of the show, when we meet her, she is a

890
00:43:53,991 --> 00:43:56,872
Speaker 2: young woman in Italy having adventure and having a new

891
00:43:56,951 --> 00:44:00,631
Speaker 2: romance and how intoxicating that is, and they wanted to

892
00:44:00,712 --> 00:44:03,191
Speaker 2: show that as the story went long, those moments where

893
00:44:03,232 --> 00:44:05,511
Speaker 2: you see the Teddy Bears applauding her or her floating

894
00:44:05,752 --> 00:44:08,031
Speaker 2: one is that there trying to make a little omage

895
00:44:08,031 --> 00:44:10,632
Speaker 2: to some movies like an Emily or a pulp fiction.

896
00:44:12,112 --> 00:44:14,512
Speaker 1: And RAFAELI watched The Night of Merits Man.

897
00:44:14,352 --> 00:44:16,712
Speaker 2: Which apparently is the movie they watched that night, and

898
00:44:16,752 --> 00:44:18,951
Speaker 2: there's a kind of a few fanciful scenes in that movie,

899
00:44:18,951 --> 00:44:21,832
Speaker 2: but they took it the next step higher. And this

900
00:44:21,951 --> 00:44:24,032
Speaker 2: is where I think maybe I take issue with some critics,

901
00:44:24,152 --> 00:44:26,312
Speaker 2: is like, you can't have a story that is about

902
00:44:26,712 --> 00:44:29,272
Speaker 2: telling this huge truth that's based on a rape and

903
00:44:29,352 --> 00:44:32,792
Speaker 2: murder and frame yourself as emily like. They're two very

904
00:44:32,832 --> 00:44:35,511
Speaker 2: different methods of story's telling clashed.

905
00:44:35,672 --> 00:44:39,712
Speaker 1: It's jarring, is jarring, and it's it's hard, especially when

906
00:44:39,712 --> 00:44:42,272
Speaker 1: you're looking at it from a true crime perspective, because

907
00:44:42,392 --> 00:44:44,951
Speaker 1: like you are, as you said earlier, pulled into this

908
00:44:45,031 --> 00:44:47,792
Speaker 1: world which is really intense, and it feels like you're

909
00:44:47,832 --> 00:44:50,272
Speaker 1: being interrogated or you're in prison with her, and you're

910
00:44:50,872 --> 00:44:53,991
Speaker 1: so like you lose all hope at some stages, and

911
00:44:54,031 --> 00:44:56,471
Speaker 1: then you know it's all like butterflies and fairies and

912
00:44:56,511 --> 00:44:59,151
Speaker 1: it feels like, oh my god, where is my brain now?

913
00:44:59,152 --> 00:45:00,072
Speaker 1: Supposed to take.

914
00:44:59,911 --> 00:45:01,872
Speaker 2: That, Yeah, and I would have probably maybe liked it

915
00:45:01,911 --> 00:45:05,071
Speaker 2: more as a storytelling device if maybe you can see

916
00:45:05,112 --> 00:45:06,832
Speaker 2: her from the beginning to the end and as she's

917
00:45:06,832 --> 00:45:09,591
Speaker 2: in prison for so many years if you maybe saw

918
00:45:09,632 --> 00:45:11,951
Speaker 2: her start to lose her grip on reality as the

919
00:45:11,991 --> 00:45:14,312
Speaker 2: show goes along and she starts.

920
00:45:13,991 --> 00:45:15,632
Speaker 3: Having So she's some sort of allusion.

921
00:45:16,152 --> 00:45:18,072
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe something, because like you do, hear of people

922
00:45:18,072 --> 00:45:20,752
Speaker 2: in these situations that things like that happen, that their

923
00:45:20,792 --> 00:45:25,272
Speaker 2: mental state becomes so intensified that they do start hallucinating

924
00:45:25,392 --> 00:45:27,112
Speaker 2: or recreating stories.

925
00:45:27,112 --> 00:45:28,872
Speaker 3: But the way it's threaded through.

926
00:45:28,752 --> 00:45:31,712
Speaker 2: It's to show that she's almost an otherworldly being, and

927
00:45:31,752 --> 00:45:34,031
Speaker 2: they're trying to show that she has this very fancible mind.

928
00:45:34,072 --> 00:45:36,231
Speaker 2: She's not like other people, which is why she didn't

929
00:45:36,272 --> 00:45:37,951
Speaker 2: react in a certain way. So it all comes that

930
00:45:37,991 --> 00:45:40,712
Speaker 2: full circle of trying to show her innocence. But I

931
00:45:40,712 --> 00:45:42,392
Speaker 2: think it comes across as a little messy and a

932
00:45:42,431 --> 00:45:44,872
Speaker 2: little self indulgent. And self indulgent is what a lot

933
00:45:44,911 --> 00:45:46,152
Speaker 2: of people have labeled the series.

934
00:45:46,192 --> 00:45:48,271
Speaker 1: And you really can't be self indulgent when you're trying

935
00:45:48,312 --> 00:45:50,512
Speaker 1: to tell your story in the midst of the murder

936
00:45:50,551 --> 00:45:53,271
Speaker 1: of someone who you called a friend. Like that is hard.

937
00:45:53,551 --> 00:45:56,591
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost The thing is like they did what

938
00:45:56,632 --> 00:45:58,672
Speaker 2: they set out to do, which I find the interesting

939
00:45:58,712 --> 00:46:00,671
Speaker 2: thing too, Like I find it difficult to sit down

940
00:46:00,712 --> 00:46:03,031
Speaker 2: and watch a series like this and say, but you

941
00:46:03,031 --> 00:46:04,792
Speaker 2: should have told this or you should have told that,

942
00:46:04,792 --> 00:46:07,471
Speaker 2: Like it's the Amanda Knock story is kind of what

943
00:46:07,471 --> 00:46:09,232
Speaker 2: it's meant to be. What I think we need is

944
00:46:09,272 --> 00:46:11,511
Speaker 2: we need someone to go and make more of a

945
00:46:11,551 --> 00:46:14,792
Speaker 2: Meredith story, which, to be honest, I don't think i've

946
00:46:14,792 --> 00:46:17,071
Speaker 2: seen anything. I know a lot about her life, but

947
00:46:17,192 --> 00:46:20,031
Speaker 2: I don't think there's anything that's attributed completely to her

948
00:46:20,072 --> 00:46:22,872
Speaker 2: where we would see a dramatization of like her childhood,

949
00:46:22,872 --> 00:46:23,632
Speaker 2: her life.

950
00:46:23,672 --> 00:46:25,671
Speaker 1: And even in Les, we don't even see a dramatization

951
00:46:25,752 --> 00:46:28,631
Speaker 1: of her murder. We only see Amanda turn up after

952
00:46:28,672 --> 00:46:29,112
Speaker 1: the fact.

953
00:46:29,592 --> 00:46:31,752
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess like the thinking from the writer's

954
00:46:31,752 --> 00:46:34,031
Speaker 2: team is that they didn't want to They obviously have

955
00:46:34,072 --> 00:46:35,471
Speaker 2: to use her name in her story because it's so

956
00:46:35,551 --> 00:46:37,272
Speaker 2: wrapped up in Amanda, but they didn't want it to

957
00:46:37,312 --> 00:46:40,151
Speaker 2: be overly glory and see that as kind of like

958
00:46:40,792 --> 00:46:43,152
Speaker 2: a voyeurism into her murder, which is so much of

959
00:46:43,192 --> 00:46:45,232
Speaker 2: true crime can be if done the wrong way, it

960
00:46:45,272 --> 00:46:45,551
Speaker 2: can be.

961
00:46:45,632 --> 00:46:48,112
Speaker 1: But also, like when we're talking about the rape and

962
00:46:48,192 --> 00:46:51,472
Speaker 1: murder of a young woman, it feels like that should

963
00:46:51,511 --> 00:46:54,272
Speaker 1: be given a bit more gravitas than it has, Like

964
00:46:54,352 --> 00:46:58,031
Speaker 1: it wasn't we weren't given a moment to mourn Meredith, yes,

965
00:46:58,192 --> 00:47:00,511
Speaker 1: at all during this whole thing. And maybe that's the point,

966
00:47:00,511 --> 00:47:03,472
Speaker 1: because Amanda also wasn't given an opportunity to mourn her friend,

967
00:47:03,872 --> 00:47:06,591
Speaker 1: Like maybe that's the reason for that. But myself was,

968
00:47:06,712 --> 00:47:10,312
Speaker 1: you know, the voyeur looking in on this. I felt

969
00:47:10,352 --> 00:47:13,671
Speaker 1: like Meredith was this kind of other worldly character who

970
00:47:13,672 --> 00:47:14,911
Speaker 1: you never really get to know.

971
00:47:15,152 --> 00:47:18,232
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's like a faithless victim almost in a story

972
00:47:18,272 --> 00:47:20,951
Speaker 2: that is about the end of her life, but also

973
00:47:20,991 --> 00:47:22,671
Speaker 2: her life and her and I know thistimes like in

974
00:47:22,712 --> 00:47:24,912
Speaker 2: the they do like cut to looking at her family

975
00:47:24,911 --> 00:47:26,792
Speaker 2: members and cut to looking at her friends, and so

976
00:47:26,951 --> 00:47:28,511
Speaker 2: get you get a little bit of her life through

977
00:47:28,511 --> 00:47:31,031
Speaker 2: their reaction, but not a lot. And I guess it's

978
00:47:31,072 --> 00:47:33,671
Speaker 2: also at the top of the show because it's told

979
00:47:33,672 --> 00:47:36,511
Speaker 2: through Amanda's perspective and that it was dramatized. It very

980
00:47:36,551 --> 00:47:39,511
Speaker 2: much shows her and Meredith's becoming friends and this closeness

981
00:47:39,551 --> 00:47:43,712
Speaker 2: between them, which if you listen to any of Meredith's

982
00:47:43,712 --> 00:47:46,712
Speaker 2: friends or family, they say that they weren't close friends,

983
00:47:46,792 --> 00:47:50,071
Speaker 2: they didn't get along, that Meredith felt very uneasy about her,

984
00:47:50,551 --> 00:47:53,752
Speaker 2: and something about that I find almost more troubling, because

985
00:47:54,352 --> 00:47:57,032
Speaker 2: not showing the murder and the impact of the rape

986
00:47:57,152 --> 00:48:00,232
Speaker 2: is definitely not the best choice. But also rewriting this

987
00:48:00,312 --> 00:48:03,911
Speaker 2: woman to have this friendship she didn't have to make

988
00:48:03,951 --> 00:48:07,071
Speaker 2: the character of Amanda look more sympathetic is also a

989
00:48:07,112 --> 00:48:07,792
Speaker 2: disservice to her.

990
00:48:07,832 --> 00:48:09,352
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, because you're.

991
00:48:09,192 --> 00:48:11,672
Speaker 1: Just But again, this is from Amanda's perspective.

992
00:48:11,511 --> 00:48:14,832
Speaker 3: And she says they were friends. Yeah, so that's the heart.

993
00:48:14,872 --> 00:48:16,991
Speaker 2: I think the blurring line of I almost wish they

994
00:48:17,031 --> 00:48:19,712
Speaker 2: had made it a bit more, almost a bit more fanciful,

995
00:48:19,752 --> 00:48:22,752
Speaker 2: and a bit more of a series rather than like

996
00:48:22,832 --> 00:48:25,192
Speaker 2: a beat by beat retelling of an event, because it

997
00:48:25,192 --> 00:48:27,712
Speaker 2: makes it even harder to kind of separate fact in

998
00:48:27,752 --> 00:48:29,352
Speaker 2: fiction because it's so a mesh together.

999
00:48:29,592 --> 00:48:31,191
Speaker 1: It is really a mesh together. And if you do

1000
00:48:31,312 --> 00:48:34,352
Speaker 1: want the answer to this question, did Amanda return to

1001
00:48:34,431 --> 00:48:38,272
Speaker 1: Italy many years later, after she'd married Christopher Robinson and

1002
00:48:38,272 --> 00:48:40,352
Speaker 1: had a little baby girl who we talked about earlier,

1003
00:48:40,752 --> 00:48:44,312
Speaker 1: to meet with Minini who is she calls him my prosecutor,

1004
00:48:44,312 --> 00:48:47,711
Speaker 1: who the man who investigated and then prosecuted the case. Yes,

1005
00:48:48,152 --> 00:48:50,551
Speaker 1: she did do that. She did return to Italy. She

1006
00:48:50,592 --> 00:48:53,111
Speaker 1: did have a conversation with him. We only know from

1007
00:48:53,152 --> 00:48:56,191
Speaker 1: Amanda's perspective what that conversation looks like. And then there

1008
00:48:56,232 --> 00:48:59,111
Speaker 1: is a scene at the end which makes it look

1009
00:48:59,192 --> 00:49:02,952
Speaker 1: like Minini goes to confession. We don't know if that's true.

1010
00:49:03,112 --> 00:49:06,071
Speaker 1: But the priest who Amanda spoke to in jail, and

1011
00:49:06,112 --> 00:49:09,431
Speaker 1: who who also happened to be Mignini's childhood priest, and

1012
00:49:09,511 --> 00:49:11,672
Speaker 1: who helped bring them together at the end, here's a

1013
00:49:11,712 --> 00:49:15,471
Speaker 1: real person. And so maybe that did happen, maybe they did,

1014
00:49:15,712 --> 00:49:17,951
Speaker 1: who knows, But yeah, there's a lot of blurring of

1015
00:49:17,951 --> 00:49:19,752
Speaker 1: lines here. You just gotta remember when you go in

1016
00:49:19,792 --> 00:49:22,631
Speaker 1: to watch this, it is from Amanda's perspective. Yes, it's

1017
00:49:22,632 --> 00:49:26,031
Speaker 1: her narrative. It's her story. It's not merited story. That's

1018
00:49:26,031 --> 00:49:27,191
Speaker 1: a story we're still yet to hear.

1019
00:49:27,551 --> 00:49:30,592
Speaker 2: And Amanda has actually addressed what her relationship with Meredith

1020
00:49:30,632 --> 00:49:34,272
Speaker 2: Kirch's family looks like now on Mamma MIA's No Filter podcast,

1021
00:49:34,471 --> 00:49:37,471
Speaker 2: talking to Caate Linebrooken and kind of explaining where she

1022
00:49:37,511 --> 00:49:38,312
Speaker 2: sits with the family.

1023
00:49:38,352 --> 00:49:41,511
Speaker 1: Now, thanks so much for listening to this very special

1024
00:49:41,551 --> 00:49:44,631
Speaker 1: crossover episode of the Spill and True Crime Conversations. The

1025
00:49:44,632 --> 00:49:48,232
Speaker 1: Spill is produced by Manishayswarren and True Crime Conversations is

1026
00:49:48,272 --> 00:49:51,272
Speaker 1: produced by Tarlie Blackman. Audio production for this episode was

1027
00:49:51,312 --> 00:49:54,951
Speaker 1: done by Scott Stronik, with video production by Jillian Rosario. Bye.

1028
00:49:54,991 --> 00:49:56,191
Speaker 1: We should do this again one day.

1029
00:49:56,232 --> 00:49:58,192
Speaker 3: We should stay tuned for another crossover