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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Before we start the show, I have a question.

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Speaker 4: Do you guys remember and I'm mainly directing this at

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Speaker 4: my millennial counterpart.

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Speaker 5: Let me just put a head. I already have a

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Speaker 5: side part.

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Speaker 4: Okay, did you ever have doorbads that hung from your

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Speaker 4: door frame at home?

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Speaker 1: No? I was aware of them. They kind of wrote

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Speaker 1: a little hippist to me, did you have? Yes?

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Speaker 3: Okay, yes I did, and I was reminded.

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Speaker 4: I saw a picture online recently and I was like,

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Speaker 4: why did I think they looked good? Like I had

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Speaker 4: pink plastic disgusting obviously, like the cheapest, most revolting ones.

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Speaker 5: Did you get them from Tree of Life?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I think I might have got them from Tree of Life?

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Speaker 4: And I like had to annoy mum about them for

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Speaker 4: why why were doorbads?

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Speaker 3: They are so annoying?

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Speaker 6: They are?

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Speaker 4: And then you kind of partied them like a fringe

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Speaker 4: in order to get in and out.

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Speaker 1: Which is interesting. It feels very millennial in itself, pushing

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Speaker 1: like a fringe.

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Speaker 5: A gen xer would never write.

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Speaker 2: Were you ever I had them not that long ago.

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Speaker 2: We had a fly problem to solve and our.

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Speaker 6: Kitchen door, and I didn't want one of those plastic

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Speaker 6: slapping things, and so I was like, let's bring door

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Speaker 6: beads back from the naughties.

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Speaker 2: You know how long that lasted? A hot minute.

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Speaker 6: They weren't pink though, they were like tasteful wooden ones.

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Speaker 6: You can still buy them on the internet. They kept

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Speaker 6: falling off the dog like to grab them, like tow

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Speaker 6: them like that, and they're noisy, and they did not

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Speaker 6: deter the flies.

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Speaker 2: So in the end we got rid of them again.

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Speaker 4: Okay, because I then had this image of all the

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Speaker 4: doorbads we bought an entire generation, going, no, what happened

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Speaker 4: to them? Are they all on the shoreline of some country,

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Speaker 4: just wasting away this crap plastic?

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Speaker 3: How dare my mum let me ever have them?

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Speaker 1: I actually love hate the idea of a desert island

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Speaker 1: just filled with the detritus of millennial ado lessons.

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Speaker 4: Did you ever have an inflatable chair that was seen through?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which I thought was so cool?

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Speaker 3: Women's Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 3: The aesthetic was absolutely revolting.

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Speaker 6: Hello and welcome to Mama Mia. Out loud, it's what

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Speaker 6: women are actually talking about. On Monday, the twenty seventh

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Speaker 6: of October. I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Amelia Last.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 6: And here's what's made our agenda today. Lily Allen has

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Speaker 6: burnt consciously uncoupling to the ground with an absolutely searing

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Speaker 6: divorce album that gives a full tea spilling of all

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Speaker 6: the cheating that her husband's been doing.

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Speaker 2: And I am here.

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Speaker 1: F Plus, Kristen Bell is really great in Netflix's season

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Speaker 1: two rom com Nobody Wants This?

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Speaker 5: So Why?

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Speaker 1: And I hung up about what she said on Instagram.

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Speaker 3: And the tragic free Birthing story.

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Speaker 4: I can't stop thinking about. So what is free birthing

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Speaker 4: and why is it on the rise?

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Speaker 1: But first, I've got some renovation news in case you

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Speaker 1: missed it. It was the block finale last night and

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Speaker 1: it was a real rollercoaster. People around the office have

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Speaker 1: been describing it as traumatic.

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Speaker 5: Controversial.

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Speaker 1: Coppers Britt and Taz won five hundred and twenty thousand

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Speaker 1: in a very hectic auction, but two of the other houses,

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Speaker 1: and this was the shock, were passed in at auction.

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Speaker 5: Two of them.

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Speaker 1: That's happened before in the show, but it's unusual to

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Speaker 1: have two in the same series.

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Speaker 2: And Severe life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it included the fan favorites Em and Ben,

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Speaker 1: which was pretty surprising because the judges loved their renovation.

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Speaker 1: So it was very dramatic, a little bit upsetting. But

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Speaker 1: speaking of renovations, and now the dramatic upsetting renovation is happening,

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Speaker 1: and this one is in Washington, DC. Did you like

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Speaker 1: my segue?

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Speaker 6: I was just about to say, Amelia Lester, that segue

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Speaker 6: deserves some kind of pod people.

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Speaker 2: Lord right there.

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Speaker 4: That was all because I've seen something, an aerial view, something,

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Speaker 4: something destroying a wing. What has he got counsel approval?

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Speaker 4: I feel like this is.

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Speaker 1: So the East wing of the White House, which is

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Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty three years old, has been demolished

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Speaker 1: last week for a ballroom. So Trump, I've been talking

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Speaker 1: about a ballroom for a while, and people like he

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Speaker 1: seems really obsessed with the idea of a ballroom. But

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Speaker 1: then he just like went ahead and demolished like a

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Speaker 1: quarter of the White House without getting any of the

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Speaker 1: requisite approvals. I should say, some people think that the

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Speaker 1: White House needs a ballroom, it actually doesn't have a

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Speaker 1: space for like big fancy dinners, and right now they

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Speaker 1: have to put up a tent for them. And you

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Speaker 1: know what's annoying to put up tents for things really is?

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Speaker 1: And if it rains, what do you do?

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Speaker 2: Sotoria Beckham about that.

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Speaker 1: Another very relatable part about this is that it was

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Speaker 1: meant to cost two hundred million, but now it's going

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Speaker 1: to cost three hundred million.

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Speaker 6: Every rent they're taught to the block people about these

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Speaker 6: things happen.

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Speaker 1: Who is paying for it? Trump essentially started kind of

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Speaker 1: a gofund me for it. He basically cast a hat

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Speaker 1: around a few of the people who got involved with

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Speaker 1: a winkle vised remember the Google, little company called Google,

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Speaker 1: little little company called Amazon, little company called Matter. You know,

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Speaker 1: just the usual suspects. They just really want Trump to

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Speaker 1: have a ballroom.

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Speaker 6: They have no interest whatsoever in making sure that Trump

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Speaker 6: feels favorable towards them, none whatsoever.

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Speaker 4: There's just no reverence or respect towards the historical significance

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Speaker 4: of the White House.

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Speaker 5: Yes, there is no reverence in respect.

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Speaker 1: There is also the fact that architects are concerned that

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Speaker 1: this may not be a viable plan. So what we

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Speaker 1: know about this ballroom which the White House has been

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Speaker 1: demolished for, is a picture that Trump held up in

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Speaker 1: the White House last week. So news organizations and architects

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Speaker 1: have been zooming in on this picture to try and

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Speaker 1: figure out what's coming.

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Speaker 2: Did he draw the picture?

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Speaker 5: I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: But the architects are worried, and you don't want architects worried,

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Speaker 1: Like they're on that list of professions that you just

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Speaker 1: want to be feeling good about, things like sushi, chefs, architects, doctors,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is the list. They're worried because the

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Speaker 1: drawing has some mistakes. There's a staircase to nowhere, and

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Speaker 1: on some of the windows collide, which I'm told colliding

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Speaker 1: windows not good.

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Speaker 6: Not on if it was me, Like it sounds like

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Speaker 6: he's done what I would do, which is like I'm

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Speaker 6: drawing all the things I want, and it's like the

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Speaker 6: you know, the.

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Speaker 2: Twenty three story treehouse.

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Speaker 6: It's like got a curly whirly staircase to nowhere, it's

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Speaker 6: got a double plunge call like Winter's Basement. It's got

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Speaker 6: a spa, it's got a cinema, and I'm like, I

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Speaker 6: want all these things, and.

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Speaker 2: I've got loads of money because those guys gave it

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Speaker 2: to me, So just make it happen.

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Speaker 6: I have one question, Familia, if I've learned anything from

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Speaker 6: Love It or Listed, you don't generally renovate places if

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Speaker 6: you're planning to move out, unless you're going to sell.

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Speaker 6: So he doesn't have to leave the White House in

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Speaker 6: like two to three years.

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Speaker 2: Does it sound like someone who's about to move Yeah, you.

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Speaker 1: Think it's three hundred million dollar renovation is going to

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Speaker 1: take a bit of time, and experts do say that

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Speaker 1: they think it's unlikely it's going to be finished by

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Speaker 1: the end of his term.

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Speaker 5: That said, you're completely right.

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Speaker 1: He is meant to leave office in twenty twenty eight,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know if you have a countdown clock

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Speaker 1: going or anything.

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Speaker 5: I know some people do.

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Speaker 1: I tend to think he just likes building things, knocking

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Speaker 1: things down, putting gold on everything. I tend to be

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Speaker 1: a bit more sanguine about that. But I know that,

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Speaker 1: for instance, the Governor of California, Gavin Newsom, has said

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Speaker 1: exactly that he's concerned that this shows he doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to go. So the actor Kristen Bell has a lot

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Speaker 1: going on right now. I don't know a lot about

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Speaker 1: her other than the fact that she was in Frozen.

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Speaker 6: I also guys, yeah, well, Elsa, do you want to

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Speaker 6: build this up?

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Speaker 2: Anna?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, everyone at school was obsessed with Ronie ka Maas.

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Speaker 4: I didn't watch it, but that's how I knew her

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Speaker 4: before this.

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Speaker 1: Now she is in season two of a hit Netflix

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Speaker 1: show called Nobody Wants This, which just came back last week,

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Speaker 1: And I've been watching it because I loved the first season,

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Speaker 1: and I got to tell you, I am not enjoying it.

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Speaker 1: And it's got nothing to do with the script. It's

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Speaker 1: got nothing to do with the great songs or really

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Speaker 1: even the great acting. It's got to do with Kristen

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Speaker 1: Bell herself.

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Speaker 2: What she done.

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Speaker 5: She went on.

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Speaker 1: Instagram last week and did something a little bit silly

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Speaker 1: and has now been a subject of a bit of

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Speaker 1: a pileon online. She posted on Instagram wishing a happy

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Speaker 1: anniversary to her husband, Dak Shepherd, who was also an

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Speaker 1: actor and a comedian.

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Speaker 2: He's a comedian, but he is best done these days.

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Speaker 1: As a podcaster, and the caption on the instagram said

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Speaker 1: happy anniversary to her husband. She thanked him for saying

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Speaker 1: that he'd never kill her, even though he was incentivized

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Speaker 1: to do so, and it showed Dax hugging one of

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Speaker 1: the couple's tween daughters. And it came during Domestic Violence

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Speaker 1: Awareness Month in the US, and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: didn't like this joke. They'd been making jokes like this

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Speaker 1: for a long time. These two a twenty twelve press

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Speaker 1: tour that they did together. An interview for that has resurfaced.

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Speaker 1: They were promoting a movie that I don't think I

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Speaker 1: ever knew existed called Hit and Run. Talking about Daxa's truck.

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Speaker 4: We drove to brunch and the first thing I said

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Speaker 4: five minutes into the writer said this sounds like it's.

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Speaker 1: Going to break.

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Speaker 2: And I was very offended.

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Speaker 3: And then I hit her several times and.

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Speaker 4: Then I got beat up, and I guess what, I

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Speaker 4: never opened my mouth again.

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Speaker 6: My goodness, you guys have quite the interesting relationship.

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Speaker 1: So I'm watching Nobody Wants This season two. I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about the really bad domestic violence joke, and I'm finding

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Speaker 1: Kristen Bell's presence grating and annoying As a result. Am

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Speaker 1: I being unfair or worse?

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Speaker 5: Sexist? Jesse?

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Speaker 3: Look, I saw this from a distance.

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Speaker 4: I saw headlines about she's written something a joke as

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Speaker 4: a caption, which is a domestic violence joke, and it's

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Speaker 4: impoor taste.

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Speaker 3: And I went, oh, here we go.

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Speaker 4: All right, someone puts something a little bit clumsy and

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Speaker 4: this is the tear down. And I immediately thought of

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Speaker 4: John Legend and Chrissy Tagan and Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively,

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Speaker 4: and I thought, this is tearing down these couples who

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Speaker 4: part of their brand is their coupledom, right, And then

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Speaker 4: I actually read the caption and I went, oh, that's bad.

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Speaker 3: Like I thought, it was a misstep.

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Speaker 4: This is the thing about selling your relationship is that

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Speaker 4: when your relationship becomes your brand, people don't actually know you,

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Speaker 4: so the context and nuances of your in jokes are

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Speaker 4: not easily conveyed to others. So you just see that

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Speaker 4: and you go, well, this has been published on a

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Speaker 4: public platform. People have said, oh, poor taste. What has

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Speaker 4: bamboozled me is that she hasn't deleted it. Because she

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Speaker 4: has not deleted it, it's still there and she's limited comments.

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Speaker 4: I don't always think that people owe an apology. And

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Speaker 4: the kind of going back the teen years to another joke,

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Speaker 4: she said, I kind of go thirteen years was a

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Speaker 4: very different moment, even for domestic violence. I feel like

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Speaker 4: we've come a long way with awareness and sensitivity. But

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Speaker 4: to let the joke stand, I find to be a

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Speaker 4: really interesting choice.

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Speaker 1: Holly, you love this couple, I do obsessed. Tell me

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Speaker 1: why she's left the joke up.

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Speaker 6: I don't know, because I feel the same way that

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Speaker 6: Jesse does, and about the joke.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's even a joke.

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Speaker 6: I just think I think it's very much one of

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Speaker 6: those things that maybe they say to each other, you

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Speaker 6: know what I mean, and that just should have always

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Speaker 6: stayed private. But the thing that's interesting about this when

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Speaker 6: I persecute how I feel about it, because I'm very

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Speaker 6: much of the opinion that you should never joke about

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Speaker 6: domestic violence, whoever you are, I just genuinely think, leave

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Speaker 6: it alone. You know, remember all the fuss about Matt Rife,

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Speaker 6: who's the stand up comedian who likes to do it?

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Speaker 6: You know, there've always been lots of controversial since who

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Speaker 6: liked it. Yeah, for me, it's not something you joke about,

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Speaker 6: So I'm totally there. But because I have a parasocial

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Speaker 6: relationship with these two, because an arm cherry, that's what

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Speaker 6: you call people who listen to arm tere X, but

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Speaker 6: Dax Shepherd's podcast, which is one of the biggest podcasts

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Speaker 6: in the world. He got a multimillion dollar deal for it.

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Speaker 6: They have everybody on that show, from Brad Pitt onwards.

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Speaker 6: You know, I feel differently about it, because anytime there's

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Speaker 6: an internet pileon, if you haven't parasocial relationship with those people,

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Speaker 6: you give them more grace. I think out louders feel

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Speaker 6: that way about us when they see a headline in

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Speaker 6: the Daily Mail about one of us or whatever happens. Occasionally,

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Speaker 6: people who don't know us will read that, take it

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Speaker 6: all as gospel and go yep, and people who listen

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Speaker 6: to the show will be like, oh, that was that

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Speaker 6: joke they made about blast so because I am in

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Speaker 6: their world and what I know about their.

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Speaker 2: Stick is that so.

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Speaker 6: Kristen bal It's interesting that you guys don't really know

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Speaker 6: much about her, because she's very much considered America's sweetheart.

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Speaker 6: She's huge, she's a musical theater star. She never puts

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Speaker 6: a foot wrong, she's squeaky clean, and Dak Shepherd has

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Speaker 6: always been painted as from the wrong side of the tracks,

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Speaker 6: working class man made good. He comes from an abusive background.

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Speaker 6: He talks a lot about masculinity vulnerability. The masculinity is

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Speaker 6: the whole thing of his show.

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Speaker 4: Right when you say abusive background, was that within his

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Speaker 4: family grounds?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: So on armche expert Dax has talked a lot about

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Speaker 6: how when he was young he was sexually abused, that

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Speaker 6: he had a difficult childhood, that he watched his mom

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Speaker 6: being the subject of physical abuse from a stepfather. So

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Speaker 6: I don't think that he thinks that domestic violence is

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Speaker 6: funny either.

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Speaker 2: I think they probably just have.

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Speaker 6: This dialogue between the two of them that is best

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Speaker 6: behind closed doors.

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Speaker 4: So it's interesting that you brought up the name Brad

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Speaker 4: Pitt right because I watched the F One movie and

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Speaker 4: we've talked about how that was actually an incredible box

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Speaker 4: office hit. Now that man has been accused, it has

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Speaker 4: not been tried in a court of law, but accused

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Speaker 4: of actual domestic violence, do we punish a woman who

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Speaker 4: made a mis calculated, not funny joke about domestic violence

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Speaker 4: more than we would a man who actually perpetrated it.

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Speaker 1: I'm really interested that you brought up Blake Lively because

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Speaker 1: I hadn't even thought about that until you mentioned it,

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Speaker 1: but that's sort of what's going on here. I've decided

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Speaker 1: that I don't like Kristen Bell because, as Holly says,

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Speaker 1: I think you're exactly right. I don't know much about her.

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Speaker 1: This joke or comment on Instagram is really what's informing

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Speaker 1: my impression of her, and I've decided that she's not

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Speaker 1: likable and it's ruining my enjoyment of the show. But

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Speaker 1: I don't think that I expect that male actors need

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Speaker 1: to be likable. I think I just want them to

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Speaker 1: act well. Like, for instance, I love the TV show

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Speaker 1: The Bear. Jeremy Allen White in that show is amazing.

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Speaker 1: I just saw him in the New Springsteen movie and

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Speaker 1: he's great in that. I don't know anything about him.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he could be an awful person, but there's

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Speaker 1: something compelling about his face and his presence, and so

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Speaker 1: I'm just willing to be swept away with him.

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Speaker 4: And so it was almost a trap, right because nobody

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Speaker 4: wants this. In order to sell that show, Kristin had

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Speaker 4: to sell her marriage.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's true.

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Speaker 3: And Adam had to sell his relationship with Layton.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's true.

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Speaker 6: I think that was part of the I think in

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Speaker 6: mainstream America, outside of armchair experts nerds like me, she's

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Speaker 6: very famous and he's not really very famous. I think,

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Speaker 6: if anything, he's a bit bad for her brand, just

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Speaker 6: because he's rough and ready, and he talks about all

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Speaker 6: kinds of stuff on that show. He talks about his

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Speaker 6: drug addiction, he talks about his opinions on all kinds

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Speaker 6: of things. I think her people probably encourage her to

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Speaker 6: not talk about that relationship too much because I think

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Speaker 6: that she's squeaky clean Disney princess right. If anything, he

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Speaker 6: kind of muddies the edges of her very likable image.

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Speaker 6: So I don't think that she posted this as part

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Speaker 6: of the pr campaign for nobody wants this. I think

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Speaker 6: she did it because they are that couple who always

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Speaker 6: do that. They always do the happy birthdays and the

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Speaker 6: things like the Beckhams do and whatever you think about that,

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Speaker 6: because your point's absolutely right, Jesse is, well, if you've

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Speaker 6: got millions of followers, as they do, and you publicize

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Speaker 6: your relationship in that way, you are absolutely opening the

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Speaker 6: door to criticism. But I don't think it was part

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Speaker 6: of the strategy. I think it was more of a

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Speaker 6: misstep one hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: I think it's been for the rollout of the show.

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Speaker 1: She was meant to appear on the Today Show, which

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Speaker 1: is one of the biggest shows in America, if not

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Speaker 1: the biggest, last week to promote the show, and just

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Speaker 1: did not show up. And I cannot imagine that that

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Speaker 1: was what the people who concocted the publicity campaign.

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Speaker 2: For this day, because she's not a not showing up

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Speaker 2: kind of person.

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Speaker 6: She is well known for being extra try hard, right,

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Speaker 6: you know, consummate professional, always with a smile, all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: That's what she does.

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Speaker 6: So the fact that she didn't show up shows how

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Speaker 6: rattled they are by this, because usually they roll over.

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Speaker 6: They had a ding dong a while ago social media

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Speaker 6: ding dong a while ago when they posted they're sort

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Speaker 6: of in that friend group of like Jimmy Kimmel, Jennifer Aniston,

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Speaker 6: and they posted a picture of their dinner table at

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Speaker 6: Thanksgiving US something and there was no one of color

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Speaker 6: at the table and they got smashed for privileged richness whiteness,

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Speaker 6: and they wrote it out and spoke about it on

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Speaker 6: the show. I think they think, oh, you can ride

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Speaker 6: this out, It'll be okay. But I think that this

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Speaker 6: one has crossed the line.

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Speaker 4: My sense with this, and this is where I've found

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Speaker 4: that the discourse gets incredibly uncomfortable. Is that when you

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Speaker 4: start reading think pieces opinion analysis on this, it basically

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Speaker 4: starts with three paragraphs on how terrible Dax's podcast is.

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Speaker 4: There is an article that has been published on substack

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Speaker 4: by quite a reputable writer which is basically arguing that

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Speaker 4: Kristen Bell has always been a dick. And it's like,

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Speaker 4: and that's what I think. I go, all right, talk

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Speaker 4: about the joke and the issue with the joke. I

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Speaker 4: think sometimes what we do is we wait for the

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Speaker 4: misstep and it comes and we go, oh, I can

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Speaker 4: talk about how I've always found her face annoying. And

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Speaker 4: that's where the sexism comes in.

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Speaker 1: And having established that the whole bar for likability is

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Speaker 1: so much higher for women than it is for men,

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Speaker 1: I think all three of us can agree on that. Jesse,

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Speaker 1: you're a bit of a scholar of the cancel to.

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Speaker 1: You used to have a podcast with the same name.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious when a woman is derided as unlikable. We

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Speaker 1: saw it with Blake Lively, now we're seeing it with Kristen.

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Speaker 1: Is there anything she can do to kind of claw

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Speaker 1: back into the realm of the likable. It's such a

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Speaker 1: sort of subjective thing to describe someone. I don't see

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Speaker 1: how you correct.

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Speaker 3: That I disappear.

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Speaker 2: Jennifer Lawrence just did it.

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Speaker 4: Jennifer Lawrence was tired with the annoying brush, which is

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Speaker 4: often about over exposure.

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Speaker 2: And Hathaway and Hathaway.

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Speaker 6: I don't think she can because she's too old for that,

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Speaker 6: like as in literally she's been They were engens when

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Speaker 6: that happened to them. But she's now forty five. By

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Speaker 6: Hollywood law, she shouldn't be having this kind of success

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Speaker 6: at the age she's at, and she has been exceptionally

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Speaker 6: likable throughout her career. You know, as I say, squeaky

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Speaker 6: clean Disney princess, I think that this level of success

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Speaker 6: that nobody wants, this is cracked. This mainstream number one

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Speaker 6: in thirty countries. All that stuff has made her a

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Speaker 6: tall poppy in a way that she probably wasn't before,

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Speaker 6: and so now the knives are out for her.

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Speaker 4: Is also about the genre. Do we want our rom

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Speaker 4: com stars? If I'm invested in you and you've finding

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Speaker 4: love and finding you like them all in the show?

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Speaker 3: Is the bar a bit higher.

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Speaker 4: Than a dramatic actress, like I don't care if I

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Speaker 4: like Scarlett Johnsen, I don't care so much about her

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00:19:20,942 --> 00:19:23,381
Speaker 4: private life because she's a serious.

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Speaker 6: Seriously telling me that you would not watch this show

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Speaker 6: because you don't like her since she made that joke,

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Speaker 6: I find that amazing.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I love the show, and I've been bing by.

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Speaker 2: I love the.

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Speaker 1: Show, but I'm interrogating a response I'm having to this

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Speaker 1: second season where I don't feel as swept away. I

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Speaker 1: don't feel the escapist element of this show, which was

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Speaker 1: its whole appeal. These two very photogenic, charming people finally

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Speaker 1: getting together. I want to be swept away in the

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Speaker 1: love story, and there's a little part of me that's

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Speaker 1: not able.

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Speaker 5: To do that anymore.

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Speaker 6: If you are watching season two, if nobody wants this,

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Speaker 6: and I certainly am, and I have a whole lot

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Speaker 6: of other things I want to discuss about this, so

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Speaker 6: I hope we're going to do another episode on it soon.

440
00:20:02,621 --> 00:20:04,782
Speaker 6: I'm obsessed with trying to work out how old those characters.

441
00:20:04,782 --> 00:20:07,181
Speaker 6: Isn't it to be? Can we agree to do that?

442
00:20:07,262 --> 00:20:08,382
Speaker 2: Please? Anyway.

443
00:20:08,502 --> 00:20:11,502
Speaker 6: Mama Merea's new podcast, Watch Party, has a whole episode

444
00:20:11,581 --> 00:20:14,382
Speaker 6: about this, So go to watch party wherever you listen

445
00:20:14,422 --> 00:20:16,621
Speaker 6: to your podcasts and listen to their series on Nobody

446
00:20:16,702 --> 00:20:17,901
Speaker 6: Wants This Season two.

447
00:20:19,422 --> 00:20:22,141
Speaker 4: In a moment, what is free birthing and why is

448
00:20:22,182 --> 00:20:31,781
Speaker 4: it on the rise in Australia. I came across an

449
00:20:31,901 --> 00:20:37,821
Speaker 4: absolutely tragic story last week about a popular Melbourne nutritionist

450
00:20:37,901 --> 00:20:42,661
Speaker 4: and food influencer named Stacy Hatfield. The thirty year old

451
00:20:43,022 --> 00:20:46,581
Speaker 4: gave birth to her first child, Axel, at home and

452
00:20:46,702 --> 00:20:51,381
Speaker 4: due to an extremely rare post birth complication, she died

453
00:20:51,502 --> 00:20:54,741
Speaker 4: suddenly on the way to hospital. We do not know

454
00:20:54,782 --> 00:20:58,982
Speaker 4: how she died, and, as many health professionals have pointed out,

455
00:20:59,502 --> 00:21:02,221
Speaker 4: women die of rare complications following childbirth in.

456
00:21:02,222 --> 00:21:04,821
Speaker 2: Hospital too, did the baby die to No.

457
00:21:04,982 --> 00:21:07,302
Speaker 4: The husband was the one who posted about it just

458
00:21:07,381 --> 00:21:09,461
Speaker 4: last week. It actually happened at the end of September

459
00:21:09,901 --> 00:21:13,782
Speaker 4: and he is with the baby. There's a gofund me

460
00:21:13,861 --> 00:21:16,501
Speaker 4: at the moment that a lot of people are sharing

461
00:21:16,581 --> 00:21:19,742
Speaker 4: because he obviously can't go back to work and it's

462
00:21:19,782 --> 00:21:20,782
Speaker 4: an enormous.

463
00:21:20,462 --> 00:21:22,061
Speaker 1: Shock and pain to the family.

464
00:21:22,901 --> 00:21:24,782
Speaker 4: I don't want to prosecute a choice a woman and

465
00:21:24,861 --> 00:21:27,821
Speaker 4: her family made, as her husband and all those who

466
00:21:27,861 --> 00:21:32,381
Speaker 4: loved her are so deep in unimaginable grief. What you

467
00:21:32,462 --> 00:21:34,661
Speaker 4: might have seen if you read this news, however, is

468
00:21:34,702 --> 00:21:38,661
Speaker 4: the word free birth and some analysis about whites on

469
00:21:38,702 --> 00:21:41,221
Speaker 4: the rise. And in fact, the ABAC did a brilliant

470
00:21:41,262 --> 00:21:44,542
Speaker 4: investigation back in July about how this was happening and

471
00:21:44,581 --> 00:21:47,542
Speaker 4: they interviewed some duelers and some experts.

472
00:21:47,141 --> 00:21:48,181
Speaker 3: About their experience.

473
00:21:48,942 --> 00:21:52,262
Speaker 4: So it's a common misconception that a home birth and

474
00:21:52,341 --> 00:21:55,341
Speaker 4: a free birth are the same thing, right. It was

475
00:21:55,381 --> 00:21:58,742
Speaker 4: reported by The Herald's son over the weekend that Hatfield

476
00:21:59,101 --> 00:22:02,341
Speaker 4: chose a free birth, and that is when someone chooses

477
00:22:02,381 --> 00:22:05,941
Speaker 4: to birth at home without the help of a doctor

478
00:22:06,101 --> 00:22:06,462
Speaker 4: or a.

479
00:22:06,502 --> 00:22:10,461
Speaker 6: Midwife, sometimes not even sometimes in a forest.

480
00:22:10,462 --> 00:22:14,182
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, exactly, So it's that absence of a medical profession.

481
00:22:14,302 --> 00:22:18,061
Speaker 4: Yes, they might have a duela, and a dueler is

482
00:22:18,061 --> 00:22:22,861
Speaker 4: someone who doesn't have medical accreditation and is generally much

483
00:22:22,982 --> 00:22:26,461
Speaker 4: cheaper than a midwife. A home birth, on the other hand,

484
00:22:26,782 --> 00:22:30,581
Speaker 4: sees a woman supported by a trained practitioner who is

485
00:22:30,621 --> 00:22:34,982
Speaker 4: registered with the Australian Health Practitioners Regulation Agency. Often that's

486
00:22:35,222 --> 00:22:37,182
Speaker 4: at least one midwife that's going to be at home

487
00:22:37,222 --> 00:22:40,581
Speaker 4: with you and if things turn, they will get you

488
00:22:40,621 --> 00:22:43,661
Speaker 4: to hospital. There have been other high profile cases of

489
00:22:43,661 --> 00:22:46,941
Speaker 4: women opting for free births and having health complications or

490
00:22:47,022 --> 00:22:51,742
Speaker 4: tragically losing their babies. Amelia, why do you think free

491
00:22:51,782 --> 00:22:53,661
Speaker 4: birthing is on the rise?

492
00:22:53,942 --> 00:22:56,102
Speaker 1: I didn't know a lot about it until I started

493
00:22:56,101 --> 00:23:00,061
Speaker 1: reading into it, and the ABC investigation was really excellent

494
00:23:00,061 --> 00:23:03,381
Speaker 1: and informative. It made the point that a lot of

495
00:23:03,502 --> 00:23:05,782
Speaker 1: women have been making, I would say, in the last

496
00:23:06,262 --> 00:23:08,542
Speaker 1: ten to twenty years, which is there's been as kind

497
00:23:08,581 --> 00:23:12,941
Speaker 1: of reckoning around how women are treated during pregnancy and

498
00:23:13,061 --> 00:23:17,341
Speaker 1: childbirth in the medical system quote unquote medical system where

499
00:23:17,381 --> 00:23:19,542
Speaker 1: they are often made to feel like incubators, are made

500
00:23:19,581 --> 00:23:22,941
Speaker 1: to feel that the fetus's needs are primary and that

501
00:23:22,982 --> 00:23:26,381
Speaker 1: their needs a secondary. And so I think that these

502
00:23:26,621 --> 00:23:30,181
Speaker 1: kinds of turning to alternative systems are coming out of

503
00:23:30,222 --> 00:23:33,262
Speaker 1: this very real need. I found one stat from the US,

504
00:23:33,381 --> 00:23:35,901
Speaker 1: Unfortunately I couldn't find an Australian equivalent. That's set in

505
00:23:35,942 --> 00:23:40,262
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, twenty percent of American women felt mistreated

506
00:23:40,422 --> 00:23:43,461
Speaker 1: at their most recent birth. That's a really shocking statistic

507
00:23:43,542 --> 00:23:46,581
Speaker 1: when you think about it, and you mentioned that they're cheaper.

508
00:23:46,782 --> 00:23:49,341
Speaker 1: Some figures I read online were that a private midwife

509
00:23:49,422 --> 00:23:52,542
Speaker 1: might start at around eight thousand dollars, or as the

510
00:23:53,061 --> 00:23:56,142
Speaker 1: radical birthkeepers or sovereign midwives as they know and they're

511
00:23:56,182 --> 00:23:59,222
Speaker 1: not actual midwives, that's the term that they use. Sovereign midwives.

512
00:23:59,542 --> 00:24:02,702
Speaker 1: They can start it around four thousand and people call

513
00:24:02,782 --> 00:24:06,542
Speaker 1: this a cult of birth because it is an online movement.

514
00:24:06,661 --> 00:24:07,581
Speaker 5: It is radical.

515
00:24:08,101 --> 00:24:10,902
Speaker 1: A lot of them shun the idea of any medical intervention,

516
00:24:11,022 --> 00:24:13,742
Speaker 1: even when it is needed, and it strikes me as

517
00:24:13,782 --> 00:24:17,782
Speaker 1: another kind of example of how in online spaces you

518
00:24:17,901 --> 00:24:21,621
Speaker 1: can be pushed into really extreme radical positions from a

519
00:24:21,661 --> 00:24:23,421
Speaker 1: place of genuine questioning and need.

520
00:24:24,502 --> 00:24:28,061
Speaker 6: Absolutely I think that's exactly what's behind it. I think

521
00:24:28,101 --> 00:24:31,782
Speaker 6: we shouldn't overblow it. Ninety seven percent of Australian births

522
00:24:31,782 --> 00:24:34,022
Speaker 6: are in hospital, whereas there are countries in the world.

523
00:24:34,141 --> 00:24:36,262
Speaker 6: Holland is always mentioned in this because they have a

524
00:24:36,302 --> 00:24:38,662
Speaker 6: really thirty percent of births in Holland are at home,

525
00:24:38,982 --> 00:24:42,942
Speaker 6: so home birth is very common in lots of cultures.

526
00:24:43,502 --> 00:24:46,061
Speaker 6: But I think that here the stats show that it's

527
00:24:46,101 --> 00:24:49,981
Speaker 6: a tiny, tiny percentage of people who are choosing not

528
00:24:50,022 --> 00:24:51,901
Speaker 6: to have their babies in hospitals at all, never mind

529
00:24:51,901 --> 00:24:54,581
Speaker 6: free birthing. But I agree with the Medie one hundred percent.

530
00:24:54,661 --> 00:24:57,581
Speaker 6: I think that if it is, it's almost as a

531
00:24:57,982 --> 00:25:02,621
Speaker 6: radical reaction to some of the dismissal that women have felt.

532
00:25:02,901 --> 00:25:05,742
Speaker 6: And although we don't have the stats, as you said, Amelia,

533
00:25:05,821 --> 00:25:09,461
Speaker 6: when New South Wales recently conducted a very well publicized

534
00:25:09,782 --> 00:25:13,141
Speaker 6: trauma inquiry, they had more than four thousand applications immediately

535
00:25:13,182 --> 00:25:15,861
Speaker 6: from people saying that they had felt in some way

536
00:25:15,901 --> 00:25:19,302
Speaker 6: traumatized by their birth. And the thing is, now, if

537
00:25:19,341 --> 00:25:22,662
Speaker 6: you go online with that information and feeling that way,

538
00:25:22,702 --> 00:25:26,661
Speaker 6: it's quite easy to be funneled into a more and

539
00:25:26,742 --> 00:25:30,302
Speaker 6: more extreme place where if you just start with I

540
00:25:30,422 --> 00:25:34,261
Speaker 6: felt disrespected by the professionals caring for me during my pregnancy,

541
00:25:34,742 --> 00:25:37,782
Speaker 6: it isn't hard when we're in an environment where algorithms

542
00:25:37,901 --> 00:25:40,662
Speaker 6: are incentivized to be more and more extreme, to end

543
00:25:40,742 --> 00:25:43,702
Speaker 6: up closer and closer and watching more and more examples

544
00:25:43,782 --> 00:25:47,262
Speaker 6: that seem fine and safe and great of people basically

545
00:25:47,422 --> 00:25:52,141
Speaker 6: eschewing traditional medical care that totally misrepresent the reality of

546
00:25:52,182 --> 00:25:52,862
Speaker 6: what's happening.

547
00:25:52,982 --> 00:25:56,101
Speaker 4: What's hard to is that I think in Australia there

548
00:25:56,141 --> 00:25:59,222
Speaker 4: can be a little bit of stigma associated with home

549
00:25:59,262 --> 00:26:06,022
Speaker 4: birth and with maybe questioning any medical not medical advice,

550
00:26:06,821 --> 00:26:09,061
Speaker 4: but maybe thinking that you'd like to do it a

551
00:26:09,061 --> 00:26:12,221
Speaker 4: different way or on your terms, and you kind of

552
00:26:12,262 --> 00:26:14,901
Speaker 4: get funneled into this, and I guess free birthing is

553
00:26:14,942 --> 00:26:18,941
Speaker 4: a more radical extension of that into this place where

554
00:26:19,462 --> 00:26:22,621
Speaker 4: then you're kind of off all the records. And by that,

555
00:26:22,742 --> 00:26:26,502
Speaker 4: I mean there is no data that can tell us

556
00:26:26,942 --> 00:26:31,461
Speaker 4: how safe or unsafe free birthing really is because hospitals

557
00:26:31,502 --> 00:26:32,342
Speaker 4: don't have that.

558
00:26:32,302 --> 00:26:34,702
Speaker 2: Which is or actually how common it is, to be honest.

559
00:26:34,462 --> 00:26:39,141
Speaker 4: Yes, which means that it is difficult for women to

560
00:26:39,302 --> 00:26:43,022
Speaker 4: make informed choices about what they're going to do when

561
00:26:43,621 --> 00:26:48,061
Speaker 4: they can't see the reality. I suppose, and I understand

562
00:26:48,302 --> 00:26:51,821
Speaker 4: the and I've felt this in certain communities, this reticence

563
00:26:52,542 --> 00:26:55,462
Speaker 4: to consider pregnancy a medical condition, as though there is

564
00:26:55,821 --> 00:26:59,581
Speaker 4: something wrong with your health, when it is a state

565
00:26:59,702 --> 00:27:02,381
Speaker 4: and people say it's perfectly natural. And there's also this

566
00:27:02,502 --> 00:27:05,981
Speaker 4: trend on TikTok that I've been seeing, and actually more

567
00:27:06,262 --> 00:27:08,542
Speaker 4: broadly a lot's been written about it where people don't

568
00:27:08,542 --> 00:27:14,101
Speaker 4: want scans when they're saying they think it's a natural process.

569
00:27:14,702 --> 00:27:17,102
Speaker 4: I don't need to know, and they see it as

570
00:27:17,101 --> 00:27:20,622
Speaker 4: the first step in medical intervention, and they go, can

571
00:27:20,661 --> 00:27:22,861
Speaker 4: I actually change the outcome? Am I going to find

572
00:27:22,901 --> 00:27:26,302
Speaker 4: out something that I have no control over? And of course,

573
00:27:26,502 --> 00:27:30,262
Speaker 4: you know, as someone currently experiencing a twin, pregnancy scans

574
00:27:30,302 --> 00:27:33,182
Speaker 4: do feel important because things can go wrong quite quickly.

575
00:27:33,661 --> 00:27:36,621
Speaker 3: But I've just found that I don't know.

576
00:27:36,702 --> 00:27:39,621
Speaker 4: I have a curiosity about it, I suppose, and an

577
00:27:39,742 --> 00:27:45,462
Speaker 4: understanding that people can have really traumatic experiences in medical settings.

578
00:27:46,061 --> 00:27:49,542
Speaker 4: It's important to acknowledge to the practice of birthing on country.

579
00:27:49,581 --> 00:27:52,901
Speaker 4: I remember I did an interview with an Aboriginal woman

580
00:27:53,341 --> 00:27:57,702
Speaker 4: who talked about this, and it's about the spiritual connection

581
00:27:57,782 --> 00:28:01,381
Speaker 4: between a mother, a baby and their ancestral land, the

582
00:28:01,661 --> 00:28:05,502
Speaker 4: country to which they belong. And so there are also

583
00:28:05,702 --> 00:28:08,981
Speaker 4: cultural dynamics here that it is if you take someone

584
00:28:09,182 --> 00:28:12,941
Speaker 4: from their country, their ancestral land, and force them to

585
00:28:13,341 --> 00:28:17,022
Speaker 4: give birth in a hospital five hours away, then that

586
00:28:17,022 --> 00:28:20,702
Speaker 4: can really disrupt an important part of who they are.

587
00:28:21,341 --> 00:28:23,022
Speaker 6: Back to what you were just saying about, there's a

588
00:28:23,022 --> 00:28:26,942
Speaker 6: trend on TikTok that say shoes scams, which is certainly

589
00:28:26,982 --> 00:28:29,621
Speaker 6: not encouraged. We should be No, I no know, but

590
00:28:29,661 --> 00:28:32,702
Speaker 6: that there's almost a spectrum that once you step into

591
00:28:32,742 --> 00:28:35,061
Speaker 6: it that's kind of goes from my body knows what

592
00:28:35,141 --> 00:28:37,182
Speaker 6: to do. That is something that you hear a lot.

593
00:28:37,262 --> 00:28:39,822
Speaker 6: My body knows what to do. There's almost a spectrum

594
00:28:40,342 --> 00:28:44,622
Speaker 6: that starts there and can end with arsuing everything yes,

595
00:28:44,661 --> 00:28:48,542
Speaker 6: saying no to everything. And I think that's what I

596
00:28:48,782 --> 00:28:50,742
Speaker 6: was getting at when I was saying how the algorithm

597
00:28:50,782 --> 00:28:56,582
Speaker 6: can be radicalizing in that space, because there's nothing dangerous

598
00:28:56,782 --> 00:29:00,501
Speaker 6: about asking questions about whether or not you have to

599
00:29:00,502 --> 00:29:03,142
Speaker 6: do exactly what your mum did or your sister did

600
00:29:03,222 --> 00:29:06,342
Speaker 6: or whoever, or if you've had a negative birth experience,

601
00:29:06,422 --> 00:29:09,142
Speaker 6: wanting to have more say in how the next one goes.

602
00:29:09,542 --> 00:29:10,902
Speaker 6: There's nothing dangerous.

603
00:29:10,582 --> 00:29:11,542
Speaker 2: Or radical about that.

604
00:29:12,182 --> 00:29:16,382
Speaker 6: It just feels that maybe there's this pathway that is

605
00:29:16,462 --> 00:29:18,902
Speaker 6: maybe more clearly laid out than it was once. It's

606
00:29:18,942 --> 00:29:21,981
Speaker 6: like starts with asking questions, a bit like lots of

607
00:29:21,982 --> 00:29:23,062
Speaker 6: other things on the internet.

608
00:29:23,182 --> 00:29:26,462
Speaker 1: Well. In fact, that pathway is particularly sought out by

609
00:29:26,542 --> 00:29:29,222
Speaker 1: women who have been failed by the system or who

610
00:29:29,222 --> 00:29:31,582
Speaker 1: have felt excluded from it. So many of the women

611
00:29:31,622 --> 00:29:33,902
Speaker 1: who choose to free birth this is again according to

612
00:29:33,942 --> 00:29:37,422
Speaker 1: that ABC investigation, are considered high risks. So they might

613
00:29:37,462 --> 00:29:40,582
Speaker 1: be women who had had caesareans, which are often a

614
00:29:40,702 --> 00:29:44,622
Speaker 1: very alienating or even traumatic experience for women, they might

615
00:29:44,702 --> 00:29:48,142
Speaker 1: have diabetes or high BMI. They might be of an

616
00:29:48,182 --> 00:29:52,262
Speaker 1: advanced geriatric age for pregnancy, where you're over thirty five

617
00:29:52,302 --> 00:29:54,862
Speaker 1: and you're made to feel like you're just way too

618
00:29:54,902 --> 00:29:57,702
Speaker 1: old to be having a child. So if you've already

619
00:29:57,742 --> 00:30:01,302
Speaker 1: started to feel like you don't belong, that's maybe why

620
00:30:01,342 --> 00:30:03,102
Speaker 1: you start looking for these parts.

621
00:30:03,661 --> 00:30:06,342
Speaker 4: I think there's something very appealing too about someone looking

622
00:30:06,382 --> 00:30:08,782
Speaker 4: at you and telling you your body knows how to

623
00:30:08,822 --> 00:30:10,941
Speaker 4: do this and it will be fine, because that is

624
00:30:10,982 --> 00:30:14,062
Speaker 4: not what a doctor is paid to tell you. Is

625
00:30:14,142 --> 00:30:16,501
Speaker 4: you go in and you're presented with the risks, and

626
00:30:16,542 --> 00:30:19,862
Speaker 4: I like data and I like percentages, but they're realistic

627
00:30:19,902 --> 00:30:25,422
Speaker 4: about the probability that something will happen. The idea that someone.

628
00:30:25,182 --> 00:30:27,342
Speaker 2: Is so self assured and so confident.

629
00:30:27,982 --> 00:30:30,862
Speaker 4: Angela Gallo talked about this in the ABC article. She

630
00:30:30,942 --> 00:30:34,062
Speaker 4: used to run courses for duelers. I know a lot

631
00:30:34,062 --> 00:30:37,262
Speaker 4: of people who who swear by duelers and say they're amazing,

632
00:30:37,302 --> 00:30:42,262
Speaker 4: and they offer physical and emotional support, but they are unregulated,

633
00:30:42,382 --> 00:30:44,781
Speaker 4: so they don't have any medical training. But she used

634
00:30:44,822 --> 00:30:47,822
Speaker 4: to do these training sessions and then she had four

635
00:30:47,862 --> 00:30:50,422
Speaker 4: times the police knock on her door and say we've

636
00:30:50,422 --> 00:30:51,862
Speaker 4: lost babies, we've lost mothers.

637
00:30:52,422 --> 00:30:53,342
Speaker 1: What are you teaching them?

638
00:30:53,422 --> 00:30:56,941
Speaker 4: Essentially, And eventually she just pulled the course, pulled her

639
00:30:56,942 --> 00:31:00,902
Speaker 4: Instagram page, and went, I can't control the ethics of

640
00:31:00,902 --> 00:31:03,302
Speaker 4: what these people do afterwards, which was that they were

641
00:31:04,102 --> 00:31:09,302
Speaker 4: radicalizing themselves to go no intervention, only free birth, never

642
00:31:09,342 --> 00:31:11,542
Speaker 4: take them to the hospital, which is not what she

643
00:31:11,622 --> 00:31:13,022
Speaker 4: was espousing in the first place.

644
00:31:13,102 --> 00:31:15,461
Speaker 6: There's also a tension and me has spoken about this

645
00:31:15,542 --> 00:31:17,862
Speaker 6: on the show before. There's a tension between the fact

646
00:31:17,902 --> 00:31:21,542
Speaker 6: that sometimes it feels like birth has been fetishized to

647
00:31:21,622 --> 00:31:24,982
Speaker 6: this enormous point of like, you know, everything about it

648
00:31:25,062 --> 00:31:27,181
Speaker 6: must be perfect. I need to have this, and I

649
00:31:27,222 --> 00:31:28,622
Speaker 6: need to have that, and it needs to go like this,

650
00:31:28,661 --> 00:31:30,622
Speaker 6: and it needs to go like that. And a lot

651
00:31:30,622 --> 00:31:32,862
Speaker 6: of people will say, when they've been parents for a

652
00:31:32,902 --> 00:31:35,142
Speaker 6: long time, like a birth is a moment. It's what

653
00:31:35,262 --> 00:31:37,941
Speaker 6: comes after that's important. But then on the other hand,

654
00:31:38,022 --> 00:31:42,942
Speaker 6: that is enormously patronizing to women, because nothing is more

655
00:31:42,982 --> 00:31:46,062
Speaker 6: life changing. Very few women will go through anything as

656
00:31:46,862 --> 00:31:52,382
Speaker 6: profound and as dangerous and as transformative as birth. So

657
00:31:52,422 --> 00:31:55,262
Speaker 6: it's like, on one hand we kind of say, don't matter,

658
00:31:55,502 --> 00:31:57,102
Speaker 6: you know what I mean, just do what the doctor

659
00:31:57,102 --> 00:31:58,982
Speaker 6: tells you and shut up. And then on the other hand,

660
00:31:58,982 --> 00:32:01,782
Speaker 6: we're like, but nothing will ever matter more, and it's like,

661
00:32:01,862 --> 00:32:03,661
Speaker 6: how do you deal with those two things?

662
00:32:03,702 --> 00:32:04,502
Speaker 5: It is a bit all.

663
00:32:04,542 --> 00:32:07,862
Speaker 1: Or nothing in terms of how the medical system deals

664
00:32:07,902 --> 00:32:10,262
Speaker 1: with birth too. So I had a doula for my

665
00:32:10,422 --> 00:32:15,342
Speaker 1: first child, which I had in a hospital setting. Let's

666
00:32:15,382 --> 00:32:17,981
Speaker 1: just say the douler in the hospital setting do not mix.

667
00:32:18,262 --> 00:32:21,421
Speaker 1: Like ideally you would want to be able to supplement

668
00:32:21,502 --> 00:32:23,941
Speaker 1: your medical care with the support that you felt that

669
00:32:23,982 --> 00:32:27,262
Speaker 1: you needed. But it's often very awkward to bring these

670
00:32:27,302 --> 00:32:30,701
Speaker 1: two systems in collision with one another. So no wonder

671
00:32:30,742 --> 00:32:32,782
Speaker 1: we have this sense that it's like this way or

672
00:32:32,782 --> 00:32:33,462
Speaker 1: the highway.

673
00:32:33,702 --> 00:32:38,262
Speaker 4: In Australia, there are some strict regulations around home births,

674
00:32:38,742 --> 00:32:41,701
Speaker 4: so whatever you choose, make sure you are consulting with

675
00:32:41,782 --> 00:32:44,582
Speaker 4: a medical professional to get the advice that's right for you.

676
00:32:46,102 --> 00:32:49,502
Speaker 6: Lily Allen just burned down the celebrity all Friends here

677
00:32:49,622 --> 00:32:56,342
Speaker 6: divorce announcement with a scathing meditation on an unevenly open marriage.

678
00:32:56,982 --> 00:33:00,302
Speaker 4: Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mummyer

679
00:33:00,342 --> 00:33:03,902
Speaker 4: out loud, just for Mummyer subscribers follow the link in

680
00:33:03,902 --> 00:33:05,942
Speaker 4: the show notes to get your daily dose of Out

681
00:33:05,942 --> 00:33:09,742
Speaker 4: Loud and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

682
00:33:14,702 --> 00:33:16,622
Speaker 6: If you've been wondering what's been going on with Lily

683
00:33:16,622 --> 00:33:19,742
Speaker 6: Allen's divorce wander no more friends? Do you even know

684
00:33:20,022 --> 00:33:21,822
Speaker 6: my millennial friends? Who Lily Allen is?

685
00:33:22,142 --> 00:33:22,542
Speaker 5: I do?

686
00:33:22,862 --> 00:33:23,102
Speaker 3: Yes?

687
00:33:23,182 --> 00:33:25,302
Speaker 6: Put her in some context for anyone in the audience

688
00:33:25,302 --> 00:33:27,982
Speaker 6: who's like, oh, she's kind of she's that English one.

689
00:33:28,022 --> 00:33:30,981
Speaker 1: I've got the perfect analogy for you. She's kind of

690
00:33:31,062 --> 00:33:34,902
Speaker 1: like a harder edged Sabrina Carpenter, so like talks about

691
00:33:34,942 --> 00:33:37,262
Speaker 1: sex but in a little bit more of a harder

692
00:33:37,342 --> 00:33:40,142
Speaker 1: edged way, or maybe Olivia Rodrigo.

693
00:33:40,462 --> 00:33:42,462
Speaker 5: And in fact, Olivia Rodrigo.

694
00:33:42,102 --> 00:33:45,262
Speaker 1: Invited Lily Allen on stage at Glastonbury and they covered

695
00:33:45,302 --> 00:33:49,782
Speaker 1: Lily Allen's very famous song fuck You, which they dedicated

696
00:33:49,782 --> 00:33:51,622
Speaker 1: to the US Supreme Court. Justice is what over turned

697
00:33:51,661 --> 00:33:52,182
Speaker 1: Ruby Wade.

698
00:33:52,222 --> 00:33:54,222
Speaker 3: So she's kind of political, bit of a shitsterer.

699
00:33:54,542 --> 00:33:57,102
Speaker 4: She was a contemporary of Amy Winehouse, she was. I

700
00:33:57,142 --> 00:33:59,302
Speaker 4: think I saw her live at Big Day Out. Yeah,

701
00:33:59,382 --> 00:34:04,182
Speaker 4: I'm gonna say two thousand.

702
00:34:02,822 --> 00:34:05,102
Speaker 5: Did you sweep through your door beads as you went?

703
00:34:05,422 --> 00:34:07,941
Speaker 4: I did, and I reckon I was like in the

704
00:34:08,022 --> 00:34:10,741
Speaker 4: mosh pity bit at the front and it was just

705
00:34:11,022 --> 00:34:12,062
Speaker 4: big Lily Allen fan.

706
00:34:12,582 --> 00:34:15,982
Speaker 6: She's always been one of the more interesting pop stars

707
00:34:16,062 --> 00:34:18,622
Speaker 6: right because she's always just said what she thinks. I

708
00:34:18,622 --> 00:34:20,742
Speaker 6: could talk to you for an hour about her famous

709
00:34:20,781 --> 00:34:24,821
Speaker 6: English background, her various marriages, her drug addictions, but we

710
00:34:24,902 --> 00:34:28,782
Speaker 6: won't because today we are talking specifically about her divorce

711
00:34:28,822 --> 00:34:30,462
Speaker 6: because she has released a new album. It sort of

712
00:34:30,502 --> 00:34:33,142
Speaker 6: came from nowhere on the weekend. It's called West End Girl,

713
00:34:33,661 --> 00:34:38,181
Speaker 6: and I have never heard a more detailed account of

714
00:34:38,221 --> 00:34:39,701
Speaker 6: the breakdown of a marriage. Do you want me to

715
00:34:39,741 --> 00:34:40,661
Speaker 6: tell you what happened? Y?

716
00:34:40,741 --> 00:34:40,941
Speaker 1: Yes?

717
00:34:40,982 --> 00:34:42,622
Speaker 6: Please, because if you listen to the album a couple

718
00:34:42,622 --> 00:34:43,901
Speaker 6: of times I have, I can give you a book.

719
00:34:44,022 --> 00:34:45,022
Speaker 5: Wait, who's she married to?

720
00:34:45,261 --> 00:34:49,102
Speaker 6: So she married David Harbor. Now are you Stranger Things people?

721
00:34:49,622 --> 00:34:51,902
Speaker 6: So I am a Stranger Things person. He plays Hopper,

722
00:34:51,902 --> 00:34:54,622
Speaker 6: who's like the tough but soft cop big star in

723
00:34:54,661 --> 00:34:55,102
Speaker 6: that show.

724
00:34:55,181 --> 00:34:56,661
Speaker 4: Every time I just need to see his face and

725
00:34:56,661 --> 00:34:58,261
Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, yeah, okay, I know his face.

726
00:34:58,462 --> 00:35:01,301
Speaker 6: So she married him in Vegas in twenty twenty after

727
00:35:01,342 --> 00:35:03,102
Speaker 6: they met on Reya and DVID forre a year.

728
00:35:03,261 --> 00:35:04,622
Speaker 5: Is there an age difference between them.

729
00:35:04,741 --> 00:35:07,102
Speaker 6: I don't think it's too significant, but he's a bit older.

730
00:35:07,622 --> 00:35:09,422
Speaker 6: The wedding picks are darling.

731
00:35:09,701 --> 00:35:10,782
Speaker 3: She had a short dress.

732
00:35:10,862 --> 00:35:13,022
Speaker 6: She was wearing a very cute short dress. They were

733
00:35:13,062 --> 00:35:15,462
Speaker 6: eating in and out burgers with her kids. She's got

734
00:35:15,462 --> 00:35:18,262
Speaker 6: two little girls from her previous marriage to Sam Cooper,

735
00:35:18,422 --> 00:35:21,181
Speaker 6: who is always described as a builder, which I think

736
00:35:21,221 --> 00:35:24,461
Speaker 6: is code for he is a civilian, not a famous person.

737
00:35:24,502 --> 00:35:26,462
Speaker 3: They're teenagers now, according to her lyrics.

738
00:35:26,462 --> 00:35:29,822
Speaker 6: They are so her kids are now tweeny teens now.

739
00:35:29,942 --> 00:35:32,381
Speaker 6: Thanks to the album, I know exactly what happened next,

740
00:35:32,741 --> 00:35:34,261
Speaker 6: she and the girls moved to New York City to

741
00:35:34,302 --> 00:35:36,982
Speaker 6: be with David. They get a rental near acute school.

742
00:35:37,022 --> 00:35:39,261
Speaker 6: She describes this in her first song, near a cute school,

743
00:35:39,422 --> 00:35:43,902
Speaker 6: very important. And then they get a big, fancy brownstone

744
00:35:43,942 --> 00:35:46,382
Speaker 6: that you can see on Architectural Digest.

745
00:35:46,622 --> 00:35:49,222
Speaker 1: If you feel like a watch full of red flag

746
00:35:49,382 --> 00:35:54,261
Speaker 1: hid it is amazing. I mean, David Harber hits on

747
00:35:54,382 --> 00:35:56,381
Speaker 1: ad during the videos, which that.

748
00:35:56,422 --> 00:35:59,261
Speaker 6: Is a red fla and she says in the song,

749
00:35:59,342 --> 00:36:01,262
Speaker 6: She's like, I could never have afforded this house. Feels

750
00:36:01,261 --> 00:36:03,421
Speaker 6: a bit awkward, but anyway, here we are. She puts

751
00:36:03,422 --> 00:36:05,062
Speaker 6: her key in the lock of the new house and

752
00:36:05,102 --> 00:36:08,022
Speaker 6: her phone rings, and she's offered a play on the

753
00:36:08,022 --> 00:36:10,181
Speaker 6: West End. So she's done a bit acting, but not

754
00:36:10,181 --> 00:36:12,501
Speaker 6: too much, so she says she takes it. She tells

755
00:36:12,582 --> 00:36:15,341
Speaker 6: David he's not happy, doesn't want to going off to

756
00:36:15,382 --> 00:36:17,301
Speaker 6: London and being in a play. She's supposed to be

757
00:36:17,661 --> 00:36:19,902
Speaker 6: wife at home in New York. Now, she says, his

758
00:36:19,902 --> 00:36:22,502
Speaker 6: whole demeanor changes. She takes it anyway, because she's an

759
00:36:22,542 --> 00:36:26,221
Speaker 6: independent woman. That play was in twenty twenty one. It's

760
00:36:26,221 --> 00:36:27,142
Speaker 6: called a ghost story.

761
00:36:27,422 --> 00:36:29,821
Speaker 2: So she's in London. She's in a hotel room all alone. Again.

762
00:36:29,862 --> 00:36:32,142
Speaker 2: This is from the song I'm paraphrasing her the lyrics

763
00:36:32,142 --> 00:36:32,822
Speaker 2: from the song.

764
00:36:32,701 --> 00:36:34,062
Speaker 5: Did she get good reviews for the play?

765
00:36:34,221 --> 00:36:34,542
Speaker 2: She did?

766
00:36:34,781 --> 00:36:37,821
Speaker 6: Stella reviews. She's in London hotel room, all alone. He

767
00:36:37,862 --> 00:36:39,701
Speaker 6: calls her and tells her that he's a man with

768
00:36:39,822 --> 00:36:42,382
Speaker 6: needs and he wants to open their marriage. On the album,

769
00:36:42,462 --> 00:36:45,981
Speaker 6: you can hear her side of this conversation. She tells

770
00:36:46,062 --> 00:36:48,542
Speaker 6: him she's very sad about it, but she wants him

771
00:36:48,582 --> 00:36:53,301
Speaker 6: to be happy. So they draw up parameters discretion, preferably

772
00:36:53,342 --> 00:36:55,301
Speaker 6: financial transactions as in pay for it.

773
00:36:55,342 --> 00:36:56,622
Speaker 5: Sorry, this is all in a song.

774
00:36:56,781 --> 00:36:58,582
Speaker 2: All in the songs Wow.

775
00:36:58,582 --> 00:37:02,542
Speaker 6: Only strangers, not people they know, so they keep going.

776
00:37:02,582 --> 00:37:05,142
Speaker 6: She says in the songs that her marriage is unevenly open.

777
00:37:05,502 --> 00:37:08,862
Speaker 6: She tries to be a modern wife, a non Monoga mummy.

778
00:37:08,902 --> 00:37:21,462
Speaker 6: There's a song called non Monoga Mummy, I just want Uneasy,

779
00:37:22,982 --> 00:37:25,221
Speaker 6: and she details on a song called Dallas Major that

780
00:37:25,302 --> 00:37:27,462
Speaker 6: sometimes she dabbles herself in this. The lyrics of that

781
00:37:27,502 --> 00:37:30,301
Speaker 6: song go, so I go by Dallas Major on the

782
00:37:30,382 --> 00:37:32,861
Speaker 6: dating apps. But that's not really my name, you know,

783
00:37:32,942 --> 00:37:35,221
Speaker 6: I used to be quite famous. That was way back

784
00:37:35,261 --> 00:37:37,622
Speaker 6: in the day. Yes, I'm here for validation, and I

785
00:37:37,622 --> 00:37:40,381
Speaker 6: probably should explain how my marriage has been opened since

786
00:37:40,382 --> 00:37:44,181
Speaker 6: my husband went astray. I'm almost nearly forty and just

787
00:37:44,382 --> 00:37:47,622
Speaker 6: shy of five foot two. I'm a mum of teenage children.

788
00:37:47,661 --> 00:37:49,221
Speaker 6: Does that sound like fun to you?

789
00:37:49,542 --> 00:37:52,221
Speaker 5: She is so clever, she is so clever, And.

790
00:37:52,142 --> 00:37:54,221
Speaker 6: The chorus of that song just goes, I hate it here,

791
00:37:54,342 --> 00:37:55,741
Speaker 6: I hate it here, I hate it here.

792
00:37:55,982 --> 00:37:56,462
Speaker 2: Anyway.

793
00:37:56,622 --> 00:37:59,821
Speaker 6: What happens next is it becomes obvious that David is

794
00:37:59,862 --> 00:38:03,542
Speaker 6: not just dabbling, he is stepping outside of the agreed rules.

795
00:38:03,822 --> 00:38:05,542
Speaker 6: One day he comes home again. This is all in

796
00:38:05,582 --> 00:38:08,022
Speaker 6: the songs. One day he comes home from set and

797
00:38:08,062 --> 00:38:10,261
Speaker 6: she makes him a nice dinner and he shows us

798
00:38:10,261 --> 00:38:12,741
Speaker 6: something on Instagram on his phone, and we've all been here.

799
00:38:12,942 --> 00:38:16,222
Speaker 2: The way he grabs that phone back really quickly makes

800
00:38:16,261 --> 00:38:18,262
Speaker 2: her go, what are you hiding?

801
00:38:19,142 --> 00:38:21,982
Speaker 6: So she snoops, And then these are the lyrics from

802
00:38:21,982 --> 00:38:25,022
Speaker 6: the song too. She finds Madeline. There's a song on

803
00:38:25,062 --> 00:38:28,661
Speaker 6: the album called Madeline. We had an arrangement be discreet

804
00:38:28,661 --> 00:38:30,781
Speaker 6: and don't be blatant. There had to be payment. It

805
00:38:30,822 --> 00:38:33,582
Speaker 6: had to be with strangers. But you're not a stranger,

806
00:38:33,741 --> 00:38:35,622
Speaker 6: are you, Madeline?

807
00:38:36,382 --> 00:38:39,342
Speaker 4: Did you know Holly Wainwright that Madeleine has come forward

808
00:38:40,221 --> 00:38:43,741
Speaker 4: in the last about twelve hours. So who is Madelene?

809
00:38:43,942 --> 00:38:47,902
Speaker 4: Is someone that he knows. That is not her name.

810
00:38:48,102 --> 00:38:50,422
Speaker 4: Her name is something else. It's a pseudonym, but she

811
00:38:50,462 --> 00:38:54,142
Speaker 4: has come forward. She has a young child herself and

812
00:38:54,181 --> 00:38:57,341
Speaker 4: has basically said, guys, I don't want this attention, to

813
00:38:57,382 --> 00:38:59,942
Speaker 4: which I say, you probably didn't have to come forward.

814
00:38:59,741 --> 00:39:02,982
Speaker 6: But well, it turns out that Madeline was kind of

815
00:39:03,022 --> 00:39:06,181
Speaker 6: the least of Lily's problems, because, as she recounts on

816
00:39:06,221 --> 00:39:09,261
Speaker 6: a song called Pussy Palace, She then finds out that

817
00:39:09,302 --> 00:39:12,301
Speaker 6: he's renting an apartment in the West Village, so as

818
00:39:12,302 --> 00:39:14,942
Speaker 6: a red flag, and she says in the song, I

819
00:39:15,022 --> 00:39:16,662
Speaker 6: didn't know it was your pussy palace.

820
00:39:16,661 --> 00:39:18,942
Speaker 2: I always thought it was a dojo because.

821
00:39:18,701 --> 00:39:21,341
Speaker 6: If he's big in karate, if you google him, you'll

822
00:39:21,342 --> 00:39:23,861
Speaker 6: see him a lot in his whites. I found a

823
00:39:23,942 --> 00:39:27,142
Speaker 6: shoe box full of handwritten letters from broken hearted women

824
00:39:27,221 --> 00:39:30,302
Speaker 6: wishing you could have been better. A Dwayne read bag

825
00:39:30,382 --> 00:39:35,261
Speaker 6: with the handles tied, sex toys, butt plugs, lube inside,

826
00:39:35,741 --> 00:39:40,701
Speaker 6: hundreds of trojans. You're so fucking broken? How are they

827
00:39:40,741 --> 00:39:41,902
Speaker 6: giving you a good picture about?

828
00:39:41,902 --> 00:39:42,181
Speaker 1: How? It is?

829
00:39:42,302 --> 00:39:45,982
Speaker 6: Not a lot of mystery in this album? So they'd split.

830
00:39:46,142 --> 00:39:50,342
Speaker 6: Unsurprisingly after all this, in February this year, they confirmed

831
00:39:50,342 --> 00:39:54,142
Speaker 6: they're split. I want to know, is this a refreshingly

832
00:39:54,221 --> 00:39:56,982
Speaker 6: honest break from the pretense of, like, you know, the

833
00:39:57,102 --> 00:39:59,301
Speaker 6: Orlando and Katie kind of we love each other, we

834
00:39:59,342 --> 00:40:02,181
Speaker 6: support each other, everything's fine here, you know, nothing to

835
00:40:02,221 --> 00:40:05,742
Speaker 6: see or is it a one sided hit job? Because

836
00:40:05,862 --> 00:40:09,462
Speaker 6: important note talking about Kristen Bell. The likability Stranger thing

837
00:40:10,142 --> 00:40:12,341
Speaker 6: has been on hiatus for years and it's about to

838
00:40:12,342 --> 00:40:14,022
Speaker 6: come back, and it's going to be the biggest thing

839
00:40:14,022 --> 00:40:16,221
Speaker 6: in the world at the end of this year, and

840
00:40:16,261 --> 00:40:17,261
Speaker 6: he'll be everywhere.

841
00:40:17,862 --> 00:40:18,622
Speaker 2: What do we think?

842
00:40:18,982 --> 00:40:22,902
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm so into minds about it. On the one hand, okay,

843
00:40:22,902 --> 00:40:25,261
Speaker 4: so she wrote this in ten days the month that

844
00:40:25,302 --> 00:40:27,862
Speaker 4: they split, and as you say, Holly, they didn't split

845
00:40:28,022 --> 00:40:30,782
Speaker 4: two or three years ago, they split five minutes ago, really,

846
00:40:31,741 --> 00:40:34,942
Speaker 4: and so feels very fresh, doesn't it, Yes, which is

847
00:40:34,942 --> 00:40:35,542
Speaker 4: the appeal.

848
00:40:36,221 --> 00:40:37,382
Speaker 2: That's kind of what you want.

849
00:40:37,542 --> 00:40:40,142
Speaker 4: Like, it's kind of boring hearing someone talk about a

850
00:40:40,181 --> 00:40:41,622
Speaker 4: breakup that they've processed.

851
00:40:41,701 --> 00:40:43,302
Speaker 3: Yeah, the unprocessed drivel.

852
00:40:43,622 --> 00:40:46,341
Speaker 1: The reviews have been really split too. I think some

853
00:40:46,502 --> 00:40:49,342
Speaker 1: people have said it's a bit sad, and some people,

854
00:40:49,382 --> 00:40:51,142
Speaker 1: like Variety said it was a stunner.

855
00:40:51,302 --> 00:40:52,542
Speaker 5: That was the word they used.

856
00:40:52,582 --> 00:40:54,422
Speaker 2: I think the album's great by the way I've listened.

857
00:40:54,502 --> 00:40:56,781
Speaker 1: They made the point that it's really different from past

858
00:40:56,862 --> 00:40:59,901
Speaker 1: like divorce breakup albums like think of Beyonce's Lemonade, which

859
00:40:59,942 --> 00:41:03,862
Speaker 1: was also a surprise drop, or Taylor's The Torture Poet's Department,

860
00:41:03,942 --> 00:41:06,942
Speaker 1: or a Gel's thirty and it says what's really different

861
00:41:06,942 --> 00:41:09,941
Speaker 1: about this is that usually the artist is speaking from

862
00:41:09,942 --> 00:41:12,582
Speaker 1: a place of like but everything's fine, now we've sorted

863
00:41:12,622 --> 00:41:14,741
Speaker 1: it all out like that was very much Beyonce, very

864
00:41:14,781 --> 00:41:18,381
Speaker 1: much Taylor their mos with their breakup albums. But this

865
00:41:18,622 --> 00:41:21,702
Speaker 1: is very much still in it. It's very much still

866
00:41:21,781 --> 00:41:24,902
Speaker 1: riding from the wound, not the scar very much, which.

867
00:41:24,781 --> 00:41:29,422
Speaker 4: Like the best art, lies in its specificity, right, we

868
00:41:29,502 --> 00:41:30,821
Speaker 4: need the specific.

869
00:41:30,422 --> 00:41:33,102
Speaker 2: The tie, the handles are tied on, the plastic bag.

870
00:41:34,022 --> 00:41:37,102
Speaker 3: Always know about the butt plug because imagery.

871
00:41:36,902 --> 00:41:38,781
Speaker 1: Right, And I think could he not have used a

872
00:41:38,781 --> 00:41:41,622
Speaker 1: reusable tope bag when he went to buy all these things?

873
00:41:41,661 --> 00:41:41,861
Speaker 6: Really?

874
00:41:42,862 --> 00:41:43,062
Speaker 1: Yeah?

875
00:41:43,982 --> 00:41:44,462
Speaker 3: Exactly.

876
00:41:44,582 --> 00:41:47,022
Speaker 6: The thing is is that I find it quite fresh,

877
00:41:47,102 --> 00:41:49,502
Speaker 6: even though I think there's no question it's a one

878
00:41:49,502 --> 00:41:51,341
Speaker 6: sided hit job. I'm sure he has a version of

879
00:41:51,342 --> 00:41:53,462
Speaker 6: this story, right, I'm sure he does. I'm sure he

880
00:41:53,502 --> 00:41:55,902
Speaker 6: doesn't come off particularly well in that either. But you know,

881
00:41:55,942 --> 00:41:58,102
Speaker 6: I'm sure he has his issues with Lily Allen. But

882
00:41:58,181 --> 00:42:01,181
Speaker 6: there's something fresh about a woman writing about this, the

883
00:42:01,261 --> 00:42:04,062
Speaker 6: idea that she was trying to be cool with it.

884
00:42:04,102 --> 00:42:05,741
Speaker 6: She was trying to be, as she writes, I was

885
00:42:05,781 --> 00:42:07,781
Speaker 6: trying to be the modern wife. You know, I knew

886
00:42:07,781 --> 00:42:09,861
Speaker 6: you wanted like Madonna whare and you've kind of put

887
00:42:09,902 --> 00:42:12,181
Speaker 6: me in the Madonna bit but I can be like,

888
00:42:12,221 --> 00:42:14,502
Speaker 6: she's trying hard, and she's been talking in the interviews

889
00:42:14,502 --> 00:42:17,821
Speaker 6: about how dating apps have changed everything about marriages. She

890
00:42:17,902 --> 00:42:20,701
Speaker 6: might have met him on RAYA, but also he had

891
00:42:20,822 --> 00:42:22,901
Speaker 6: endless options in his pocket all the time. So I

892
00:42:22,942 --> 00:42:25,982
Speaker 6: love the freshness of hearing all that explored. And I

893
00:42:26,022 --> 00:42:27,901
Speaker 6: also think you would be so mad with this guy

894
00:42:27,902 --> 00:42:29,542
Speaker 6: because I just need to read you a quote that

895
00:42:29,622 --> 00:42:32,422
Speaker 6: he said about her and why he decided to marry her. Okay,

896
00:42:32,502 --> 00:42:35,902
Speaker 6: he was talking about her kids and he says, the

897
00:42:35,942 --> 00:42:39,422
Speaker 6: little one was riding along and she was going like David, Dad, David,

898
00:42:39,502 --> 00:42:41,982
Speaker 6: because the d got her confused, and the older one

899
00:42:42,022 --> 00:42:44,301
Speaker 6: got very upset, and she was like, he's not our dad.

900
00:42:44,342 --> 00:42:46,542
Speaker 2: He's not our dad. The younger one goes, well, what

901
00:42:46,701 --> 00:42:47,181
Speaker 2: is he? Then?

902
00:42:47,462 --> 00:42:49,902
Speaker 6: And I was like, I need to marry this woman

903
00:42:50,142 --> 00:42:53,981
Speaker 6: because the emotional fallout would be terrible. How mad would

904
00:42:54,022 --> 00:42:56,821
Speaker 6: you be with that guy who was like, laud you

905
00:42:56,902 --> 00:42:59,582
Speaker 6: into like, I mean, okay, you'd have to probably, as

906
00:42:59,622 --> 00:43:00,181
Speaker 6: you say.

907
00:43:00,221 --> 00:43:01,422
Speaker 3: A protector, a savior.

908
00:43:01,902 --> 00:43:04,461
Speaker 6: Yeah, then he screws you over when you're like, I

909
00:43:04,502 --> 00:43:06,261
Speaker 6: am good. I mean, if her side of the story

910
00:43:06,302 --> 00:43:07,301
Speaker 6: is to be believed.

911
00:43:07,102 --> 00:43:10,062
Speaker 1: I had to say the Architectural Digest video. I submit

912
00:43:10,142 --> 00:43:13,902
Speaker 1: that as evidence. That came out in twenty twenty.

913
00:43:13,701 --> 00:43:15,461
Speaker 5: Three, so two years ago.

914
00:43:15,622 --> 00:43:18,102
Speaker 1: So it sounds like, according to the chronology that you've

915
00:43:18,181 --> 00:43:20,982
Speaker 1: laid out for us, the open marriage was already ineffected

916
00:43:21,102 --> 00:43:24,062
Speaker 1: by that point, and she seems so ill at ease

917
00:43:24,102 --> 00:43:26,942
Speaker 1: with him, and there are so many moments where he

918
00:43:27,261 --> 00:43:30,942
Speaker 1: demeans her through jokes. Basically, There's one point where he

919
00:43:30,982 --> 00:43:33,262
Speaker 1: criticizes her for how much money he's had to spend

920
00:43:33,261 --> 00:43:36,221
Speaker 1: on her giant wardrobe. There's another moment where they talk

921
00:43:36,261 --> 00:43:38,462
Speaker 1: about how they have a sofa. It's a double backed

922
00:43:38,462 --> 00:43:40,542
Speaker 1: sofa so that after they've argued, they don't have to

923
00:43:40,542 --> 00:43:43,821
Speaker 1: sit next to each other. There's so many parts of

924
00:43:43,862 --> 00:43:47,582
Speaker 1: it where, looking back in retrospect, you think this dynamic

925
00:43:47,701 --> 00:43:48,382
Speaker 1: is really off.

926
00:43:48,902 --> 00:43:50,742
Speaker 5: I did want to mention also that she's forty.

927
00:43:50,822 --> 00:43:54,302
Speaker 1: I think that's really significant because both with say Lemonade

928
00:43:54,302 --> 00:43:57,422
Speaker 1: and Torture Poets Department, these were written by women in

929
00:43:57,462 --> 00:44:01,102
Speaker 1: their thirties. Adele's thirty, unsurprisingly was written by a woman

930
00:44:01,181 --> 00:44:05,262
Speaker 1: younger than Lily Allen. And there's something about turning forty

931
00:44:05,502 --> 00:44:08,741
Speaker 1: that I can almost hear in this album. There's a

932
00:44:08,822 --> 00:44:12,221
Speaker 1: sense of like I don't need to pretend everything's perfect anymore.

933
00:44:12,422 --> 00:44:16,181
Speaker 6: Although obviously he gets whacked hard in this album, it's

934
00:44:16,221 --> 00:44:19,622
Speaker 6: also very self reflectively sad. There's a song on there

935
00:44:19,661 --> 00:44:22,182
Speaker 6: called Relapse, because she's famously had a lot of issues

936
00:44:22,221 --> 00:44:24,502
Speaker 6: with drugs and she's sober, living a sober life, and

937
00:44:24,502 --> 00:44:26,701
Speaker 6: shows it's easier to do in America because the culture's

938
00:44:26,942 --> 00:44:28,982
Speaker 6: in place in a way that it isn't really in England.

939
00:44:29,462 --> 00:44:31,102
Speaker 6: And there's a song on there called Relapse where she

940
00:44:31,102 --> 00:44:33,181
Speaker 6: talks about how going through all this, how much she

941
00:44:33,221 --> 00:44:35,781
Speaker 6: wants to drink or take pills, but if she does,

942
00:44:35,822 --> 00:44:37,901
Speaker 6: she knows she'll lose her kids. Like it's a very

943
00:44:39,102 --> 00:44:43,142
Speaker 6: raw acc and there's something to be respected about that,

944
00:44:43,261 --> 00:44:45,461
Speaker 6: but it also kind of makes me envisioned a dog

945
00:44:45,502 --> 00:44:47,742
Speaker 6: who rolls over and shows their tummy, because there's also

946
00:44:47,822 --> 00:44:50,142
Speaker 6: something very vulnerable about that, like you're going to get

947
00:44:50,142 --> 00:44:53,301
Speaker 6: attacked for being this honest, like you just are you.

948
00:44:53,261 --> 00:44:53,821
Speaker 2: Know what I mean.

949
00:44:53,982 --> 00:44:59,062
Speaker 4: It's the antithesis, though, to the PR crisis.

950
00:44:58,382 --> 00:45:00,462
Speaker 2: Notes written by in a notes.

951
00:45:00,302 --> 00:45:03,582
Speaker 4: App checked by both lawyers, a whole lot of words

952
00:45:03,582 --> 00:45:06,782
Speaker 4: that mean absolutely nothing. I think that's why it's quite

953
00:45:07,422 --> 00:45:09,062
Speaker 4: there's something very refreshing about it.

954
00:45:09,942 --> 00:45:13,062
Speaker 6: I think you should go listen. Well, Lily's a legend

955
00:45:13,142 --> 00:45:18,142
Speaker 6: in my eyes. I I hope she finds happiness. A

956
00:45:18,221 --> 00:45:20,341
Speaker 6: massive thank you out loud as to all of you

957
00:45:20,422 --> 00:45:23,381
Speaker 6: for listening to today's show and to our fabulous team

958
00:45:23,422 --> 00:45:26,262
Speaker 6: for putting it all together. Don't forget you can also

959
00:45:26,382 --> 00:45:28,781
Speaker 6: watch us on YouTube. We're going to be back in

960
00:45:28,822 --> 00:45:29,582
Speaker 6: your ears tomorrow.

961
00:45:29,902 --> 00:45:31,381
Speaker 2: God Bye.

962
00:45:32,302 --> 00:45:35,181
Speaker 6: Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you

963
00:45:35,342 --> 00:45:38,181
Speaker 6: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing

964
00:45:38,221 --> 00:45:40,661
Speaker 6: to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.

965
00:45:40,822 --> 00:45:42,701
Speaker 6: There's a link in the episode description.