Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud.
Speaker 4: It's what women are actually talking about on Friday, the
Speaker 4: twenty fourth of October.
Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm m Burnham and I'm back again.
Speaker 3: Hello.
Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy.
Speaker 4: Hi Claire, Hello Claire, And here's what's made our agenda
Speaker 4: for today, a day when, as we always do on
Speaker 4: Friday shows, we avoid the news like the plague, and
Speaker 4: we just splash about in whatever we want to talk about,
Speaker 4: having some fun. We are having some fun, and I
Speaker 4: want to talk about other people's marriages.
Speaker 1: I love that because I'm very nosy. Plus I need
Speaker 1: a little bit of advice from you guys. What to
Speaker 1: say to dog owners who tell you it's okay, he's
Speaker 1: friendly when their dog is like running straight at you
Speaker 1: and you don't know what they're going to do.
Speaker 2: And cowboys, billionaires and bad boys.
Speaker 3: No, that is not my dating pressure right now.
Speaker 2: Why are we all suddenly addicted to happily ever after?
Speaker 2: But first we have a brand new term to obsess
Speaker 2: over and it's come from one of our own. It's
Speaker 2: come from an out louder named Alison. Alison posted in
Speaker 2: our Facebook group and she said, I've decided to do
Speaker 2: something I'm calling a shobby. Shobby it's short for short
Speaker 2: term hobby, right.
Speaker 4: You're not committing like gardening is my hobby now, My identity's.
Speaker 3: Long term, and you tell people about it so too much.
Speaker 3: She said.
Speaker 2: Basically, I had the urge, for absolutely no earthly reason whatsoever,
Speaker 2: to learn to wrap the entirety of lose yourself by
Speaker 2: eminem by girl.
Speaker 1: His arms are sweaty, these weak arms are heap's vomit
Speaker 1: on a sweater already mar spaghetti.
Speaker 4: He's nervous.
Speaker 2: So, just to clarify that is in fact eminem Allison
Speaker 2: has not achieved her shop yet, but she hasn'tntil Christmas,
Speaker 2: so she's got some time.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for clarifying. I would have been very
Speaker 1: confused had you not.
Speaker 3: She says.
Speaker 2: It's so much fun. No one else even knows I'm
Speaker 2: doing it. This is my new shebby, just for me.
Speaker 2: So before we get into it, she's also given us
Speaker 2: a list of rules for a shokay great. She says,
Speaker 2: the shobby has to be discreet and time limited. Once
Speaker 2: it's done, it's done. No signing up for classes, So
Speaker 2: she can't learn.
Speaker 4: All the world's to lose yourself and then go, you
Speaker 4: know what now, I love that. I'm going to learn
Speaker 4: all the words to fight for your right to party.
Speaker 4: She can't do an eminem discography.
Speaker 2: Okay, she's just doing it and she's not telling anyone,
Speaker 2: and it's like a little party trick she can whip up, right,
Speaker 2: She said, it's solely for fun, nothing earnest. You might
Speaker 2: learn something, but that's not the point. It's literally just
Speaker 2: to give yourself something interesting and the detaining to do
Speaker 2: to tickle your brain or body. Also, no accountability partners.
Speaker 2: If you don't do it or finish it, no one
Speaker 2: knows or cares. It doesn't create clutter to live in
Speaker 2: the garage. Whatever it is, you can figure it out
Speaker 2: on YouTube.
Speaker 3: I love this Scottish shebby's.
Speaker 1: I feel like I had one without realizing it was
Speaker 1: a shobby because I had always wanted to participate in
Speaker 1: a pub choir. Oh yeah, and I did it recently
Speaker 1: and it was really fun and I never want to
Speaker 1: do it again.
Speaker 3: Wait, what's a pub choir. I did that once too.
Speaker 4: It's a choir but with drinking, So you go to
Speaker 4: a part I mean, don't have to drink, it's not
Speaker 4: the rules, but you go and do it in a bar.
Speaker 4: There's a woman who's made it pub choir, a massive
Speaker 4: things called astroid. I don't know what a second was anyway,
Speaker 4: but you can go to one like I went to
Speaker 4: one at my local RSL when I lived in Sydney.
Speaker 4: And they teach you a song to be Tuesday night
Speaker 4: and they teach you a song. They split you into
Speaker 4: groups and you all everyone has a drink and sings
Speaker 4: a song and it is very wholesome and very fun.
Speaker 1: The beauty of it too is that if you're a
Speaker 1: bit shit, it doesn't really matter because everyone else around
Speaker 1: you was singing and kind of makes up for it.
Speaker 3: So it's just like a big karaoke session.
Speaker 4: I really like the no accountability because regular outlouders will
Speaker 4: know that. I came back from my holiday this year
Speaker 4: and I was like, I'm learning Italian. Remember, duelingo became
Speaker 4: my personality for a while. Do you know how annoying
Speaker 4: those duo lingo endless freaking? Like, remind hey, don't break
Speaker 4: your streak, hey, and they text you and they're in
Speaker 4: the emails and the apps pop it upon it. It's
Speaker 4: like you are annoying me out of wanting to learn
Speaker 4: Italian now and.
Speaker 2: Also would due LINGO from what I remember when I
Speaker 2: used it briefly, is that you don't actually learn phrases
Speaker 2: that you need.
Speaker 3: It's usually stuff like how do I buy this lamp?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm getting a lot of like the red skirts
Speaker 4: are cheaper than the black skirts.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, when would I use that?
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're going over as some kind of
Speaker 1: shopping adventure for a brand or store, but imagining in
Speaker 1: day to day life not overly helpful. So did have
Speaker 1: you stopped?
Speaker 4: I haven't stopped, But it's touched my inner rebel in
Speaker 4: that when those come up and they say you're going
Speaker 4: to break your streak, there's a bit of me because
Speaker 4: you know, I'm busy person.
Speaker 3: It's just like you're at the bottom of me. We're
Speaker 3: little green bird who cares if I break my streak?
Speaker 3: Like I can start again to I know, but you've
Speaker 3: already told us. So now we're all asking you. You
Speaker 3: can't break your stream?
Speaker 2: What's your shebby my shobby is so I have a
Speaker 2: little digiticam like a digital camera.
Speaker 1: I've seen you taking photos in the office. Yes, I've been.
Speaker 2: Taking a lot of photos on it, and I've started
Speaker 2: to create little like digital albums and sharing them with
Speaker 2: my friends and family. But now I feel like I've
Speaker 2: over committed to this bit that now every single time
Speaker 2: I'm going to an event, they're all like, where's your
Speaker 2: digital camera?
Speaker 3: Accountability? And we need we need to and everyone wants photos.
Speaker 1: Oh stopping so good at it? Then be a bit
Speaker 1: shitter and people won't care.
Speaker 3: I want to talk about other people's marriages.
Speaker 4: Surprise, surprise, specifically our opinions about them and how we
Speaker 4: project onto them. Right, allow me to present a sub
Speaker 4: stack and subsequent peace on Mom and Miya that we
Speaker 4: published in the days after Victoria Beckham's Netflix documentary, and
Speaker 4: the title of this article was Oh Victoria, your husband
Speaker 4: is not on your team? And it is written by
Speaker 4: Holly no relation Bell now. In it, Holly Bell wrote,
Speaker 4: I have come here to have my say about Victoria
Speaker 4: Beckham because I am really worried about her. She also wrote,
Speaker 4: I'm here to stick my nose in where it's not
Speaker 4: required as usual any claims here are alleged, and this
Speaker 4: is only my point of view. Your view might be different,
Speaker 4: and that is good for already being the spice of life.
Speaker 3: Blah blah. Now I want to be really clear. People
Speaker 3: in glasshouses.
Speaker 4: Right, There is a large part of my professional life
Speaker 4: that is all about dissecting pop culture moments about celebrities.
Speaker 3: It's a job.
Speaker 4: It's my job, exactly, and so there's no doubt that
Speaker 4: I often veer into this kind of stuff where I'm
Speaker 4: like making a lot of presumptions about people's private lives
Speaker 4: that are absolutely none of my business.
Speaker 3: So I'm not being on a high horse about what
Speaker 3: I'm about to say.
Speaker 4: It's just that so many people sent me this article
Speaker 4: by Holly Bell, like even before we published it on
Speaker 4: MoMA Mea when it was a people dm'd it to me.
Speaker 3: My friends texted it to me. They were all like,
Speaker 3: oh my god.
Speaker 4: This as in like they thought you would agree with it, well,
Speaker 4: that I would maybe agree with it, that I have
Speaker 4: a kinto about it, right, yeah, that.
Speaker 3: I would have thoughts, and of course you don't have thoughts.
Speaker 4: And now we're here, and now we're here, but I
Speaker 4: want to unpack a few of Bell's points and then well,
Speaker 4: I'll talk about why it obsessed me. Basically, the premise
Speaker 4: of Hollybell's story was that that DOCCO when it came
Speaker 4: to Victoria and David Beckham together, was full of red flags.
Speaker 3: She said.
Speaker 4: Some of the red flags was a long list, but
Speaker 4: one of them was there was a scene where he's
Speaker 4: making a smoothie in the kitchen and she says he
Speaker 4: turned the blender on every time she started speaking, and.
Speaker 3: That was funny.
Speaker 1: I thought it was funny for me, it was kind
Speaker 1: of funny. It depends, I think, on whether he does
Speaker 1: shit like that all the time or whether that was
Speaker 1: like a hamming it up for the camerig moment.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So Holly Bell's said about that, that what he was
Speaker 4: insinuating that she's less important than blended vegetables. She can't complain,
Speaker 4: or she can't take a joke, she can't stop him,
Speaker 4: or she's being the fun police.
Speaker 3: Okay, red flag number one, red flag number two.
Speaker 4: In the infamous Rolls Royce meme, we all remember that
Speaker 4: from the first David do Co she was talking about
Speaker 4: being for a working class background and he comes to
Speaker 4: the door and he's like, tell the truth, Tell the
Speaker 4: truth and she's like, my dad had a Rolls Royce.
Speaker 3: Holly Bell writes that this is him being jealous of her.
Speaker 4: Family's money and uncomfortable because he came from a different background.
Speaker 1: But we did find out a little bit on context
Speaker 1: to that Rolls Royce thing in this documentary, because it
Speaker 1: wasn't like they lived in a palace. They lived in
Speaker 1: a rundown old place that her dad essentially put together
Speaker 1: piece by piece whilst also running his electronics business, and
Speaker 1: so he was really kind of a trade I guess
Speaker 1: at the heart of it. Also, he was working class.
Speaker 3: She was really yeah, and we went into this in
Speaker 3: detail on out loud.
Speaker 4: This isn't a complex English class system thing see Gin
Speaker 4: and Coke. Anyway, that's I digress. But what I see
Speaker 4: when I see that Tell the Truth is a couple
Speaker 4: who've had a long history and they take the piss
Speaker 4: out of the stories that everyone tells about themselves. That's
Speaker 4: what I see, right when I see that bit, I
Speaker 4: don't see anger. I see like affection and joshing. And
Speaker 4: this is what I'm getting to, right.
Speaker 3: It's like how we all see something different in the
Speaker 3: same things.
Speaker 4: And then she also says there's a red flag in
Speaker 4: that bit at the beginning where David offers Victoria a
Speaker 4: chocolate when he knows she's not going to eat a
Speaker 4: chocolate and she says something like I haven't eaten chocolate
Speaker 4: since the nineties, and everyone goes ha ha ha, And
Speaker 4: then later in the documentary she talks more seriously about
Speaker 4: her issues with food and disordered eating. Holly Bell wrote,
Speaker 4: he's telling a story because he was also famously said
Speaker 4: she won't eat what he cooks for her.
Speaker 3: She only eats like fish, fish, and vegetables.
Speaker 4: He's telling this story to paint a negative picture of
Speaker 4: Victoria while gilding himself with a halo of loving to
Speaker 4: share food with his wife. She goes on to suggest
Speaker 4: that he might be Posh's ongoing trigger, that, my friends,
Speaker 4: is what we call an overstep in the inner us?
Speaker 3: Is it again? What I see there as a joke,
Speaker 3: like a bit of a dangerous joke, but a joke.
Speaker 2: Between two people who've been together for nearly like something
Speaker 2: that you think he ongoingly like asks her, do you
Speaker 2: want a piece of chocolate?
Speaker 3: And the bit is, but do we get the picture right?
Speaker 4: The Posh doco from my perspective, is a highly managed,
Speaker 4: highly edited documentary, So I think that what I see
Speaker 4: in it is I see the bits of their life
Speaker 4: they wanted to share. Of course, and it's quite lighthearted
Speaker 4: and it's a bit of a joke. But what other
Speaker 4: people saw, what Holly Bell saw and a lot of
Speaker 4: people who loved that story and shared it was a
Speaker 4: marriage that had serious power dynamics. And this plays into
Speaker 4: my theory that really when we look at celebrity relationships
Speaker 4: and we may call our assumptions about them, it's all
Speaker 4: about our experiences.
Speaker 3: So if you've had a.
Speaker 4: Controlling partner who was I mean, and I have in
Speaker 4: my time but not for a long time, who you know,
Speaker 4: will be like do you want a piece of chocolate
Speaker 4: knowing you won't have it, or teasing you about what
Speaker 4: you're eating, or like poking at a vulnerability of yours,
Speaker 4: You would probably see that scene really differently to if
Speaker 4: you're like my husband or my partner or whatever takes
Speaker 4: the piss out of me.
Speaker 3: About being on a diet or you know, growing up
Speaker 3: rich or not. You know what I mean, It's all
Speaker 3: about what you see and also like what.
Speaker 2: You want to see, Like you kind of pick and
Speaker 2: choose how you interpret their interactions between each other. When
Speaker 2: I watched the documentary, it's interesting because I didn't see
Speaker 2: everything that Holly saw, who wrote the substack, But I
Speaker 2: also didn't see affection at all. What I saw was
Speaker 2: like every other Gen X relationship I've ever seen, where
Speaker 2: it's like partners who like each other but actually don't
Speaker 2: really show it out loud, and like especially that end
Speaker 2: scene where they're walking in the garden and they literally
Speaker 2: look like best friends because they're not touching each.
Speaker 3: Other together for nearly thirty years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like they're not like lovey dovey, But I
Speaker 2: also don't think they hate each other. And I like,
Speaker 2: it just looks like an average relationship. Like not definitely
Speaker 2: not the relationship I would want ever, but it just
Speaker 2: looks average.
Speaker 1: We expecting it to look like a fairy tale because
Speaker 1: their beginnings were so fairy tale, so we expect that
Speaker 1: fairy tale to have extended for thirty years. Is that
Speaker 1: what we're hoping?
Speaker 3: Well, should look like they at least like it.
Speaker 4: I think they definitely look like they like each other.
Speaker 4: I think they look like they like each other a lot.
Speaker 4: But do you think Murphy that one of the reasons
Speaker 4: we're so obsessed with other people's marriages, like whether they're
Speaker 4: celebrities or people we sort of adja like, no, by all,
Speaker 4: look at that couple over there that I'm talking over dinner,
Speaker 4: or look at those people over there, look at how
Speaker 4: he didn't pull a chair out, or whatever it is,
Speaker 4: because we're kind of raw shark testing things, like you know,
Speaker 4: we see what we see according to our own experiences.
Speaker 1: I think that is absolutely bang on, because I would
Speaker 1: actually hate for cameras to come in and record what
Speaker 1: Adam and I, my husband and I say to each
Speaker 1: other sometimes because we are constantly taking the piss out
Speaker 1: of each other in ways that require some law to
Speaker 1: be learned before you can and participate. And so they
Speaker 1: looking in at us might think we are absolute assholes
Speaker 1: to each other. But the reality is that's a long
Speaker 1: history of funny things that we've collected over the years
Speaker 1: and we internally find hilarious. But people looking in would
Speaker 1: be like, oh my god, do you guys even like
Speaker 1: each other? Whereas like we go to bed at night
Speaker 1: laughing at other people who might think that we don't
Speaker 1: like each other, if you know what I mean. So,
Speaker 1: like I felt that a little bit from passion becks.
Speaker 1: I also feel like they've never had an opportunity to
Speaker 1: just kind of be to like settle and not put
Speaker 1: on a show. Like their entire lives essentially have been
Speaker 1: showmanship from her, from him, from both of them together.
Speaker 1: Now they're family because as you know, you've probably mentioned that,
Speaker 1: you know, there's some family members that do not rate
Speaker 1: a mention during the recording of Victoria Beckham. Their whole
Speaker 1: life is a show, so maybe they just don't put
Speaker 1: on the PDAs. Although the one thing I did find
Speaker 1: a little bit uncomfortable is that Victoria seemed outwardly affectionate
Speaker 1: to him, and he didn't seem to return it very often.
Speaker 1: And I think think that is when you mentioned gen
Speaker 1: X couples, and I think that is sometimes a bit
Speaker 1: of an m O for gen X couples, where men
Speaker 1: are supposed to kind of be this unemotional sort of
Speaker 1: flat line when it comes to certain things, but when
Speaker 1: they talk about say cars or football, or, in you
Speaker 1: know Beckham's case, his food, they're allowed to be emotional
Speaker 1: and passionate about that garden. Yeah, the garden, like the
Speaker 1: chickens whatever. He seems very excited by.
Speaker 3: He loves the garden.
Speaker 4: Celebrity relationships. I mean, I know you're probably too sensible
Speaker 4: for this, murf, but I might be wrong. And I
Speaker 4: know AM's got some good examples, But are there any
Speaker 4: celebrity relationships that you do look at and either go,
Speaker 4: you know, I want to emulate that, or oh I
Speaker 4: feel that, so you know, like I do that raw
Speaker 4: shark testing stuff on.
Speaker 1: Naomi Watts and her husband Billy crudd Up. I think
Speaker 1: I look at them, but they are like married later
Speaker 1: in life couple, which is really different from say, Hugh
Speaker 1: Jackman and Debraly Finesse, who got married quite young, and
Speaker 1: then we've seen them kind of progress out of love.
Speaker 1: And so I I felt like we held up some
Speaker 1: of these couples and thought, like, if they fail, then
Speaker 1: surely I can't not fail too, because they've presented this
Speaker 1: fairytale ideal of what marriage looks like to the outset,
Speaker 1: and we saw this with Nicole and Keith too. And
Speaker 1: something someone said to me a little while ago is
Speaker 1: I used to get really upset that my husband doesn't
Speaker 1: post stuff about us on social media. In fact, he
Speaker 1: doesn't post anything, but like I was upset that, like
Speaker 1: not even a happy birthday, not even like a look
Speaker 1: at this woman on my wedding anniversary. Nothing right. And
Speaker 1: then a friend said to me, look, it is often
Speaker 1: a measure of an insecure relationship if there's too much
Speaker 1: posting on social media. And I looked into it a
Speaker 1: little bit, and there is a lot of research around that,
Speaker 1: and that we saw Nicole quite regularly posting lovey dovey
Speaker 1: stuff about Keith and he's kind of like he'll chuck
Speaker 1: an emoji and every now and then, so less kind
Speaker 1: of you know, reaction from him. And so was that
Speaker 1: her trying to cover up the fact that she was
Speaker 1: really insecure in her relationship. So yes, I've held up
Speaker 1: some of these marriages over time and gone like I
Speaker 1: would love to be like that, love to be like that.
Speaker 1: But then eventually you kind of look at them and
Speaker 1: you go, we're all kind of similar, except I have
Speaker 1: less outward pressure from money probably and way less money,
Speaker 1: and you know, no one's stalking me outside my front door.
Speaker 3: Emma. The celebrity couples that you go, that's what I want.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Okay, I need to talk about Dua
Speaker 2: Lipa and Callum Turner.
Speaker 3: Have you guys seen them today?
Speaker 4: In fact, that they allegedly met and were sitting next
Speaker 4: to each other at a party and they realized they're
Speaker 4: reading the same.
Speaker 3: Book page and that's why they fell in love. And
Speaker 3: I was like that, and that you're the two hottest
Speaker 3: people party by about a million.
Speaker 1: I'm googling them right now. I need to see images
Speaker 1: of them.
Speaker 3: They're very PDA. Yeah, I do not believe that meat
Speaker 3: cute story, although that's very cute.
Speaker 4: And also it plays into something we've discussed before, and
Speaker 4: which is there's nothing hotter than a man who reads.
Speaker 4: If he's doing all that's a true story, then good
Speaker 4: for him. And if it's not a true story, then
Speaker 4: good for him for being smart enough. Because everyone knows
Speaker 4: Jua Lipa likes to reach.
Speaker 3: He has a bottle. Anyway, I digress, goem these two
Speaker 3: extremely attractive people. When they are together, it's.
Speaker 2: Like, I don't think they're allowed to not touch each other.
Speaker 2: He's always has his hands around her hips. They're always giggling,
Speaker 2: they're always making out, they're always laughing into each other's mouths.
Speaker 3: It is like I can't look away, no, and it
Speaker 3: loves them. Just said so, and similar to.
Speaker 2: Like your sad gen X celebrity relationships, like they're the
Speaker 2: relationship that I feel like younger women are holding onto
Speaker 2: and they're telling us, like, that's exactly how relationships should be.
Speaker 4: But and I hate to be this person, but I've
Speaker 4: got to be this person. Do you think they're going
Speaker 4: to be doing exactly that in twenty years if they
Speaker 4: stay together for twenty years, go through a whole.
Speaker 1: Lot, Oh my god, if they're laughing into each other's
Speaker 1: mouths in twenty years time.
Speaker 4: Lo, you have to have they have to have respect
Speaker 4: for the fact that love changes and grows and doesn't
Speaker 4: look the same all the time, but it's still a
Speaker 4: real thing, you know what I mean. Like, so again,
Speaker 4: I think that they're a wonderful.
Speaker 3: Raw shark, like he loves he loudly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you want someone to fall in love with you
Speaker 4: like that, to be so proud of you like that,
Speaker 4: find you irresistible like that, But you acknowledge they're in
Speaker 4: a honeymoon face.
Speaker 3: No, No, this is them, this is them forever, like
Speaker 3: he loves a loudly. Very many grown up couples with
Speaker 3: children who.
Speaker 2: Still do that.
Speaker 3: Well, No, I have a lot of friends who are
Speaker 3: like that. But have they been together twenty years.
Speaker 2: No, but it's just like he loves a loudly and
Speaker 2: like he made me realize I never want a nonchalant man.
Speaker 2: I want my man to be as chalant as possible, out.
Speaker 1: Loud as up next, I am bringing my dilemma to
Speaker 1: the table because I have a dog that does not
Speaker 1: like other dogs. But other dog owners don't seem to care. So, ladies,
Speaker 1: you know how sometimes we do chats in the subscriber
Speaker 1: episodes of Mamma Me are out loud where people riding
Speaker 1: their delay. I would like to take this opportunity to
Speaker 1: do one on myself, if that's okay with you.
Speaker 3: I have a dog.
Speaker 1: She is one of my very best friends. She's a
Speaker 1: Scottish deer hound cross with a border Collie kelpie. So
Speaker 1: black and white, short haired, very long legs, and I
Speaker 1: love her desperately. She sounds very fast, She is for
Speaker 1: very short bursts of time and then sleeps a lot.
Speaker 3: She's a rescue. She I remember when you got her.
Speaker 4: I think we may have got our dogs around the
Speaker 4: same time, so tightly bonded to Sydney.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: So the thing with her, and the thing with rescues
Speaker 1: in general, is you never really know what you're going
Speaker 1: to get behaviorally when this dog arrives. And she was
Speaker 1: a pandemic puppy, so I got all the time in
Speaker 1: the world to spend at home with her learning her.
Speaker 1: Now we've taken her to professional trainers because she does
Speaker 1: not like men, so we seem to have gotten her
Speaker 1: past that she's recovering. However, she had a run in
Speaker 1: with a tiny dog and it has changed her personality now. No,
Speaker 1: if you've never owned a tiny dog dog, they can
Speaker 1: be quite aggressive. They may have some kind of small
Speaker 1: man syndrome. I don't know what it is, but they
Speaker 1: will take on bigger dogs with little care.
Speaker 3: They will. My dog doesn't like little dogs, and no
Speaker 3: prejudices against little dogs. They're very cute, but they do
Speaker 3: like to come up and have a goat, don't they.
Speaker 1: They really really do. And the thing about little dogs,
Speaker 1: and I want to say also extends to little dog owners,
Speaker 1: is the thought that they're a little dog and can
Speaker 1: do no harm allows them to touch more freedom than
Speaker 1: say a bigger dog that looks a little scarier. So
Speaker 1: we've done a lot of training with her. However, the
Speaker 1: running with the little dog has meant she now really
Speaker 1: does not like little dogs. So I am very careful
Speaker 1: about when I walk her. I take her out at
Speaker 1: times of day when I know, like lots of other
Speaker 1: people will be out and about when we go away.
Speaker 1: Sometimes that's unavoidable. And I had an interaction with a
Speaker 1: lady on the beach, and I want to preface this
Speaker 1: by saying I do not have a problem with people
Speaker 1: walking their dogs off leash if you know how to
Speaker 1: recall your dog when it is necessary. I also want
Speaker 1: to say I never walk my dog in specific off
Speaker 1: leash areas that I know people are allowed to have
Speaker 1: their dogs off leash. There are lots of places where
Speaker 1: dogs are off leish where they're not supposed to be.
Speaker 1: So I was walking my dog on the beach and
Speaker 1: a small dog came barreling at my dog, barking, and
Speaker 1: I thought, holy shit, this is going to end badly.
Speaker 1: So I stepped in between them and very loudly yelled
Speaker 1: no at this dog right and thank god it stopped.
Speaker 1: But the owner, who was quite a ways away, approached
Speaker 1: me and said, it's okay, he's friendly, which is great.
Speaker 1: And like if I was by myself and your dog
Speaker 1: came running at me, I would love nothing more than
Speaker 1: to get to know your dog on a personal level.
Speaker 1: Like I love dogs. I will pat strangers dogs with
Speaker 1: permission all the time. However, my dog is not friendly
Speaker 1: to your dog, and if your little dog comes running up,
Speaker 1: I can't guarantee that my beautiful, big, slightly mentally traumatized
Speaker 1: dog won't do something that might injure your small dog.
Speaker 3: This is tricky. So what happened?
Speaker 1: So the lady got a little angry with me because
Speaker 1: I said to her, my dog's not friendly, can you
Speaker 1: please put your dog on a leash? And she went, ah,
Speaker 1: put your dog on a leash, and it started that
Speaker 1: whole business.
Speaker 4: Oh no, the confrontations with dogs is always bad, bad, bad,
Speaker 4: Yeah it is.
Speaker 1: And people are passionate about off leash dog walking and
Speaker 1: they don't mind their dog goes up to other dogs
Speaker 1: because their dog is friendly and they know that they
Speaker 1: don't have any issues. So I just don't know how
Speaker 1: to have this because I didn't handle it well after
Speaker 1: she kind.
Speaker 3: Of did you do fisty cuffs? I'm just imagining. And
Speaker 3: then I got arrested.
Speaker 1: I'm currently on probation.
Speaker 3: No I And then I murdered a woman from the beach.
Speaker 1: I mean, it came close, but we like we were yelling,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I can't stop your dog. I
Speaker 1: needed to stop your dog before she gets to my dog.
Speaker 1: And she's like, well, then you shouldn't be walking your
Speaker 1: dog out in public. Like it all went like that
Speaker 1: and it was really yucky. But now I just don't
Speaker 1: know what do I say to those people in that situation.
Speaker 4: Look Out louder are going to have a lot of
Speaker 4: opinions about this, because this is one of those things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is one of those things.
Speaker 4: Because similarly, my dog, she's lovely dog, of course I
Speaker 4: think that, And we walk her along the river near
Speaker 4: my place and it is an off lead area and
Speaker 4: I'll have her off lead, but when I see a
Speaker 4: small dog approaching.
Speaker 3: I'll always put my dog on the lead.
Speaker 4: Quit Again, she's not mad keen on little dogs, and
Speaker 4: I would hate for there to be a scene.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 4: I think responsible dog owners usually when they see you
Speaker 4: do that, like when they see that you're doing that
Speaker 4: putting your dog on the lead, they will do the same.
Speaker 4: Like it's like a mirroring behavior, like an unspoken mirroring behavior,
Speaker 4: like they'll go, oh, that dog obviously, so you know,
Speaker 4: and then they'll put their dog on the lead and
Speaker 4: you walk past each other and you go hi, and
Speaker 4: then you move on with your lives. But when people
Speaker 4: don't do that, and I've had exactly the same thing happen, Claire,
Speaker 4: the little dog will come barreling up and really be
Speaker 4: like remember, and you're like.
Speaker 1: Please go away, please go and you're like shitting yourself,
Speaker 1: like this is a real bad qu.
Speaker 4: I know it's really tricky, but I don't think there's
Speaker 4: a perfec to answer to it, because yes, I think
Speaker 4: ideally everybody's hyper aware of this stuff and like, oh,
Speaker 4: that dog looks.
Speaker 3: Like it's got issues, I'll put it up. But they're not.
Speaker 4: They're talking to their mate, they're doing something else. They're thinking,
Speaker 4: my dog's fine, so my dog's fine, And I just
Speaker 4: don't know, Like I think we have to just have
Speaker 4: a contract where we have to assume people are generally
Speaker 4: doing their best.
Speaker 2: I also feel like dog culture has changed so much
Speaker 2: since I've had my family dogs, which I think they
Speaker 2: passed away like a few years ago now, But when
Speaker 2: we had our dogs and we were growing up with
Speaker 2: our dogs, I don't think I ever saw a dog
Speaker 2: off the lead like it was just given that your
Speaker 2: dog would always be on the lead, and then if
Speaker 2: dogs were crossing, you would know it would be like
Speaker 2: a slightly dangerous dog because you owly will pull them
Speaker 2: like well off the path and then like exactly what
Speaker 2: you said, hold, then I'd pull my dogs well off
Speaker 2: the path because they had had a few run ins
Speaker 2: with like dogs trying to attack them, and then they
Speaker 2: would get scared and then we have to lift them.
Speaker 2: And they were like these big beagles and they were
Speaker 2: so and they just hated being on the crowd.
Speaker 4: It was like this, we are I think you're right,
Speaker 4: and I think there're also dog owners a little bit.
Speaker 4: We're all a bit biased towards our dogs, right, So
Speaker 4: even though I do that with my dog, I put
Speaker 4: her on the lead to avoid little dogs. If I'm
Speaker 4: walking her past a little dog and the owner picks
Speaker 4: the little dog up protectively, like keep.
Speaker 3: You away from that beast, I'm a bit like, you know,
Speaker 3: vested on my dog's behalf my dog even though.
Speaker 1: Right like go get that dog, but also too, I've
Speaker 1: had a moment where like I even put her in
Speaker 1: a vest, a big yellow vest that said nervous, full
Speaker 1: high vis trading style because this is back when she
Speaker 1: hated men, when she was in training, And so I
Speaker 1: put her in the big high ve's vest and I
Speaker 1: presumed that that would be warning enough for people to
Speaker 1: kind of stay away from her. But it was not enough.
Speaker 1: I was standing had a set of traffic lights, well
Speaker 1: away from everybody else, and then I heard my dog's
Speaker 1: jaws snap, like you know that real dog snap like
Speaker 1: they've gone to bite someone. And I've turned around and
Speaker 1: there was a man trying to pat her who's come
Speaker 1: up from behind me, And I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: if you don't be trying to.
Speaker 3: Fast, always ask if you're going to pad a dog exactly.
Speaker 1: And she's wearing a giant yellow vest that says nervous,
Speaker 1: like please.
Speaker 2: I think it was a yellow vest. If I saw
Speaker 2: a yellow vest on dog, I'm like, I'm padding that dog.
Speaker 2: It's wearing a yellow vest.
Speaker 1: Oh no, it was more of an attractant and a
Speaker 1: different I hate that. Please, like help me out loud
Speaker 1: as if you have got a way to handle the
Speaker 1: people that say, oh, it's okay, he's friendly when your
Speaker 1: dog is not, Like, what do you do that doesn't
Speaker 1: result in a murder happening? Afterwards between dog owners.
Speaker 4: I have one quick anecdote to add to that, right is,
Speaker 4: in my neighborhood, one time, tune at my dog had
Speaker 4: to run in with another local dog.
Speaker 3: This dog is literally called Damien.
Speaker 4: And of the omen Okay, See, one of the things
Speaker 4: about dogs is you do have to accept that, even
Speaker 4: when they're very well trained, they are wild animals and
Speaker 4: shit's going to happen sometimes, right, And these dogs used
Speaker 4: to play together really happily, and one day they didn't
Speaker 4: and Damien bit on the neck and Tuna was quite
Speaker 4: she had go to hospital.
Speaker 3: It was a whole thing.
Speaker 4: We've never been to that dog polk since. But the
Speaker 4: next time I saw them on the road, like Damien
Speaker 4: and his owner and they walking down the road and
Speaker 4: I saw him and I kind of waved and I said, oh, hi, Demon,
Speaker 4: I said, and the woman was like, it's not called Demon,
Speaker 4: And I was thinking, shiit, what's he called.
Speaker 3: I know he's a devil dog. I know he's a
Speaker 3: bad dog. I mean, there's just a lot of pitfalls.
Speaker 1: But also Damien is like an a one class name
Speaker 1: for a dog. I think that is my next one.
Speaker 4: I want to talk about romance specifically, romance books, Murphy,
Speaker 4: you love them, right, So I have the right company
Speaker 4: for this conversation.
Speaker 3: I could talk about it all, which is good because.
Speaker 4: One thing we have learned on the show before is
Speaker 4: that romance booklovers are very passionate and they all get
Speaker 4: very upset if you do them wrong. But I am
Speaker 4: not intending to do anyone wrong. I went to a
Speaker 4: romance riding masterclass on the weekend.
Speaker 3: I know it's quite sexy.
Speaker 1: Am I going to be reading a book by you?
Speaker 4: Soon?
Speaker 3: We're going to get a manny novel from you.
Speaker 4: I have not. Look, don't worry romance writers. I am
Speaker 4: not trying to muscle my way into your genre. But
Speaker 4: with the book I am writing at the minute, it
Speaker 4: does have like a love story in it, and it's
Speaker 4: really hard to write. So I was like, let's find
Speaker 4: out what the experts know about this shit. So I
Speaker 4: went to a masterclass that was run by this really
Speaker 4: successful Australian romance writer called Claire Connolly or.
Speaker 1: She does a lot of the Billionaire.
Speaker 4: Yes, it does right, And I haven't been able to
Speaker 4: stop thinking about it since, because this is like an
Speaker 4: entire world that I didn't really know about, and I
Speaker 4: just want to give you a few facts before we
Speaker 4: jump into why, because I know Murphy will be able
Speaker 4: to tell us exactly why right. One of the reasons
Speaker 4: why I found this so fascinating is I haven't been
Speaker 4: able to stop thinking about what it tells us about women,
Speaker 4: and also about the books that we definitely do not
Speaker 4: read about in all the swanky literary pages of the
Speaker 4: broadsheet newspapers are selling their freaking socks off. Right. According
Speaker 4: to Nielsen Books Scan Australia, three million romance books valued
Speaker 4: at forty six and a half million sold in the
Speaker 4: last year in twenty twenty four. And the thing is
Speaker 4: about that number is that does not include audio or ebooks,
Speaker 4: and so much romance is read on ebooks, So imagine
Speaker 4: what physical actually is, right, Imagine what that number actually is.
Speaker 4: It's a genre that is up by forty nine percent
Speaker 4: in Australia alone, forty nine percent, when the rest of
Speaker 4: the market.
Speaker 3: Is quite hughuge.
Speaker 4: So there is clearly a bottomless desire for these books.
Speaker 4: And I want to talk about the kind of books
Speaker 4: we're talking about. I'm talking not necessarily about romance c
Speaker 4: although that does fall into this, and obviously that is
Speaker 4: responsible for a lot of this big boost and all
Speaker 4: the attention that it's brought with it, and TikTok and
Speaker 4: all those kind of things are responsible for it too.
Speaker 4: But a traditional romance novel, to be classified as a
Speaker 4: romance novel has to have one thing h ea.
Speaker 3: It has to have an h ea, Happily ever after? Right, Yeah?
Speaker 4: And I'm obsessed with this information because it makes perfect
Speaker 4: sense when you think about it. I was watching Brene
Speaker 4: Brown this week talking to Fortune mag and she was
Speaker 4: talking about the climate, and I don't know this will
Speaker 4: be news to anyone. She said, people are not okay
Speaker 4: in general. People are emotionally disregulated, distrustful, and disconnected.
Speaker 3: And so what do they want? They want something predictable
Speaker 3: is the wrong word, Something they can count on, something reliable,
Speaker 3: something that they know is going to work out, Murphy,
Speaker 3: Is that part of why you love romance?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? And you can even say predictable because that is
Speaker 1: part of it, because a lot of these books are
Speaker 1: written to a formula where you kind of know that,
Speaker 1: even though you know the main male character and the
Speaker 1: main female character have fallen out in a fighting, you
Speaker 1: know they're going to get back together, and you know
Speaker 1: that they're going to end in a way that's going
Speaker 1: to be very satisfying to you. And I think the
Speaker 1: thing about romance are in my particular special interest romanticy,
Speaker 1: it's about also exploring your own fantasies, whether that be
Speaker 1: romance sexual. There's so many different genres within the genre
Speaker 1: that you can find your niche and explore your own
Speaker 1: sexuality through that. You can, you know, live your life
Speaker 1: in a world where you know you might never do
Speaker 1: things in reality, but you can experience them through the
Speaker 1: experiences of the characters in these books. And I may
Speaker 1: never recreate any of that in my real world unless
Speaker 1: we do find out eventually that men with pointy years
Speaker 1: and magic powers and wings really exist. But it allows
Speaker 1: my imagination to like fuel my libido whilst also giving
Speaker 1: me that escape from the real world and my real
Speaker 1: world because I do, you know, contribute to a news
Speaker 1: podcast and a women's health podcast, like a lot of
Speaker 1: it's not great news. And so for me to sit
Speaker 1: down with a romance book and have that predictable storyline
Speaker 1: come out and yes, happy ending, but that doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: mean of every book, because there are a series where
Speaker 1: the happy ending doesn't come until five books later. There
Speaker 1: is something about that predictability of a storyline that allows
Speaker 1: my brain to be calm and allow me to understand
Speaker 1: that even though there is tension throughout some of it,
Speaker 1: that tension is going to go away eventually. So like,
Speaker 1: it is such a lovely experience to go through these
Speaker 1: tales with all these different characters and they come out
Speaker 1: the other side. And it has real world implications. There's
Speaker 1: been research into women reading romance books and it having
Speaker 1: positive impacts on the relationships they have with their partners
Speaker 1: in the real world. It's helped women with libido issues.
Speaker 1: It's also an ability for women to take a moment
Speaker 1: for themselves when they're very heavily lifting the mental load.
Speaker 1: You know, it's absolutely predictable and comforting while also being
Speaker 1: sexy as hell, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 4: I want to ask you, am right because one of
Speaker 4: the things I learned about when I was in my
Speaker 4: master class, my romance writing master class, is that there
Speaker 4: are established tropes, and in this instance, that is an
Speaker 4: insulting word. The tropes like enemies to lovers, friends to lovers,
Speaker 4: fake dating, force, proximity, and those niches people will read
Speaker 4: deeply in. So it might be that you love enemies
Speaker 4: to love us, so you'll read all enemies to lovers books.
Speaker 4: And then equally the settings are also very deep niche.
Speaker 4: She's so you might just like cowboys or cowgirls, or
Speaker 4: you might figure skaters, yeah, exactly, or polyamorous you know,
Speaker 4: country threesomes, and you might They were saying, there's closed
Speaker 4: door sex scenes, which means the bedroom door closes before
Speaker 4: you see the sex, open door, which means the sex
Speaker 4: is explored. There's quite a big conservative romance streak now
Speaker 4: where there's no sex at all. There's just you know,
Speaker 4: sort of polite handholding the stuff and sexual tension. Are
Speaker 4: you a cowboy girl or a billionaire girl?
Speaker 3: Oh, that's such a good question.
Speaker 2: I feel like I've only recently, like probably in the
Speaker 2: last year or so, got into romance, because when I
Speaker 2: started reading romance when I was younger, it was very different.
Speaker 2: Like I think the first romance novels I read when
Speaker 2: I was about like ten or eleven with a Twilight series,
Speaker 2: and like they all were quite like similar, Like it
Speaker 2: was all about like a petite, fragile girl who flew
Speaker 2: away in the wind because she was so small and
Speaker 2: her boyfriend was like tall and muscle and he has
Speaker 2: abandonment issues since his dog died when he was twelve, but.
Speaker 3: Only she could help him figure that out. And I
Speaker 3: was like, this is kind of weird. Kind of doing
Speaker 3: this would be weird.
Speaker 2: And it's only when I got older and my sister
Speaker 2: I have to talk about her because she has a Bookstagram.
Speaker 3: She reads about probably four books a week. She is obsessed.
Speaker 3: I'm so encouraged by how much all the young women
Speaker 3: I now read.
Speaker 2: And it's all romance, and it's like she loves all
Speaker 2: romance books. And I feel like, especially with younger women,
Speaker 2: when they find a romance author they love, they'll read
Speaker 2: everything that author's written.
Speaker 4: And these women are hard working and prolific. Claire Connolly
Speaker 4: was telling me she writes so many books a year.
Speaker 4: She just absolutely works out it like a queen.
Speaker 3: Because the girls are demanding it. Emily Henry like, I've
Speaker 3: probably read all of her books and now.
Speaker 2: She's having a big deal different movies for all of
Speaker 2: her books. It's like and it's similar, like there's like
Speaker 2: so many different tropes and it's like they churn through them,
Speaker 2: like they go through all of them and you know
Speaker 2: exactly what's going to happen and you can't wait to
Speaker 2: find out at the same time, and you're just so invested,
Speaker 2: and it's like what you said, if it's such a
Speaker 2: good escapism. But at the same time, I do realize
Speaker 2: it does have an impact on my dating life, like
Speaker 2: as a single person, Like there have been times where
Speaker 2: I've literally just quit dating just because I'm so invested
Speaker 2: into these books, and I realized I'll.
Speaker 1: Never get that.
Speaker 3: Both romantic and otherwise.
Speaker 4: Do you think the only other thing I want to ask,
Speaker 4: right is generally with culture, I don't like knowing the ending.
Speaker 4: Like if I can pick the ending at the beginning
Speaker 4: of a TV show, say, or a TV series, then
Speaker 4: I often like, I hate that.
Speaker 3: I like the I like a surprise.
Speaker 4: But the thing that interests me about just how popular
Speaker 4: happy endings are is that clearly that isn't true. Is
Speaker 4: it's just like we just don't want any more things
Speaker 4: to worry about, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's nice when I read romance are
Speaker 2: usually able to read them in a few days, because
Speaker 2: even when there's like a tiff or a fight or
Speaker 2: that big like climax moment when nothing's going right, you
Speaker 2: never feel like you're in danger. You always feel safe
Speaker 2: throughout that whole book because you know they're going to
Speaker 2: come around.
Speaker 1: And this is the thing too, is because these are
Speaker 1: tales written about women by women. Yeah, and you can
Speaker 1: absolutely tell them. There's a big section of TikTok which
Speaker 1: compares how men write women as supposed to how women
Speaker 1: right when.
Speaker 3: Supple tender breasts, we don't see any of that now.
Speaker 1: Her breasts were quivering in anticipation, like they're just it's
Speaker 1: being written by women is so different, and you're right
Speaker 1: them in that. It feels like a safe space, like
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what's really happening in the storyline. You
Speaker 1: know that that author is taking care of you and
Speaker 1: will actually deliver to you what you need by the
Speaker 1: end of it. It's really beautifully written women.
Speaker 4: That's what Rachel Johns, who's another romance writer who I
Speaker 4: was talking about that we ken, said, she said, I
Speaker 4: want people to know that it's not all heaving bosoms anymore.
Speaker 4: I'm throbbing members like there's a lot more variety than that.
Speaker 4: But one of the things I did as Claire Connolly,
Speaker 4: because as you said, she specializes in billionaires, and I
Speaker 4: was like, is Elon Musk really done that franchise, because
Speaker 4: you know everybody fell for that fifty shades. Oh and
Speaker 4: he just happens for the US Man Alive as well
Speaker 4: as really hot.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that book.
Speaker 2: When I was in high school, I remember we just
Speaker 2: had a PDF that would get passed around on a
Speaker 2: USB to all the girls what like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was amazing out loud as.
Speaker 4: We're going to put a link in the show notes
Speaker 4: to Claire Connelly, who's the writer, who's masterclass I did.
Speaker 3: I've found it so eye opening. Tell us if you
Speaker 3: love romance, we want to know.
Speaker 1: Can I leave on one last point because last time
Speaker 1: I was on I mentioned some recommendations for the romance book.
Speaker 3: Give us some gateway people.
Speaker 1: People gave me some really great recommendations. I've read the
Speaker 1: plated Prisoner series. Thank you to everyone who recommended that
Speaker 1: to me. That was fabulous. I also want to do
Speaker 1: a shout out to Shield of Sparrows, which is a
Speaker 1: gorgeous book by Devney Perry. I only have the review
Speaker 1: copy of This is not the actual cover of Diabound,
Speaker 1: but this is one of the best books I've read
Speaker 1: in the longest time. Is by Stable Sorenson and just
Speaker 1: a heads up to for Kellie Hart fans. The sequel
Speaker 1: to Quicksilver is out next month and we're all gagginged
Speaker 1: ot these all romanticy category?
Speaker 3: Is that what we call it?
Speaker 1: Yes? So it is like strong female characters with super
Speaker 1: hot boys, and there's often like wolves or magic or
Speaker 1: in this case dragons for Wings of Blood, which is
Speaker 1: what I'm currently reading. And inside of that, and this
Speaker 1: is another thing I think we haven't taken into account
Speaker 1: is all the merch that now comes with romantic books
Speaker 1: because I have a fourth Wing book.
Speaker 3: Mok, I'm so jealous. Calm down, I'm down, my friend.
Speaker 2: After the break, we are sharing our very best recommendations,
Speaker 2: including something Claire I feel like will make you feel
Speaker 2: so much better about your dog.
Speaker 3: Story one unlimited out Loud access.
Speaker 4: We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma
Speaker 4: Mia subscribers.
Speaker 3: Follow the link at the show notes to get us in.
Speaker 4: Your ears five days a week and a huge cute
Speaker 4: to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 2: Vibes ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 1: This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 2: It is a recommendations time. Holly, do you want to
Speaker 2: take it.
Speaker 3: Away, I do.
Speaker 4: I know that Claire is going to be recommending a
Speaker 4: couple of podcasts, so and I was going to recommend
Speaker 4: one and I'm not now, but I've just got to
Speaker 4: put in one quick mention, okay, for one of my
Speaker 4: gen X queen's Jennifer Aniston.
Speaker 3: She's on Dax Shepherd's Armchair Expert. This week. I saw
Speaker 3: some clips of hers.
Speaker 4: The thing that's very exciting for Anniston stands about this
Speaker 4: is she's never done a long form I've never seen
Speaker 4: her do it interviews. It's just not what she does right.
Speaker 4: And obviously I've listened to it all and obviously it's great.
Speaker 4: She's very warm and funny. There's no like bombshells. It's
Speaker 4: not like she's like so one day Brad Pitt came
Speaker 4: home and it's not like that, damn it, because she's
Speaker 4: kind of in a safe space, I guess with her
Speaker 4: mate Dax and Monica. But anyway, I loved it. I
Speaker 4: just loved hanging out with her for an hour and
Speaker 4: she did. There were a couple of really interesting things.
Speaker 4: She talked about why she'd never adopted a kid. That
Speaker 4: was really interesting. Quick just for any gen X is
Speaker 4: out there who do love Deaniston getting to hear her talk.
Speaker 4: I hope she's gonna feel like she can do that
Speaker 4: a bit more. But my actual one is my best
Speaker 4: friend in the world at the moment. Conceala a particular concealer.
Speaker 4: Jesse's been doing some makeup recos lately and I have
Speaker 4: recommended before a really good affordable concealer by this brand
Speaker 4: called Revolution. I can't find it anywhere, and I don't
Speaker 4: think it's because of my recommendation, but I think it's
Speaker 4: all that. I think it's because Lee Campbell recommended it, right,
Speaker 4: So anytime I walk into a price line, I go
Speaker 4: and look for it, and I can't find it.
Speaker 3: So I've had to replace it.
Speaker 4: As like Lauders know, I don't mind a bit of
Speaker 4: a spenny beauty thing sometimes it's a little treat, but
Speaker 4: I don't like spending lots of money on Consila, and
Speaker 4: my experience tells me that often the more expensive ones
Speaker 4: don't work as well.
Speaker 3: Like I've got to be really careful with Consala.
Speaker 4: Well, I don't have to be careful. That's an overstatement.
Speaker 4: Like a lot of concealers get cakey. The ones with
Speaker 4: really good coverage.
Speaker 3: I get that as well.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm so scared of Kinceala.
Speaker 4: So I always go for the Serumi almost runny ones,
Speaker 4: kind of like foundation. Yeah, but some of them are
Speaker 4: too runny, like Trinny's one is too running. I used
Speaker 4: to use that, but it's two Running's.
Speaker 3: Not good anyway.
Speaker 4: So let me just tell someone because this is not revolutionary,
Speaker 4: but it is an affordable chemist one that is rocking
Speaker 4: my world at the minute, which is just the Laurel
Speaker 4: True Match Radiant Serum Conceala.
Speaker 3: I one hundred percent agree with that.
Speaker 4: It's so good and they have so many shades, and
Speaker 4: right now it's fifteen bucks. It's fifteen bloody bucks in
Speaker 4: price line. I've been really tired lately. I haven't been
Speaker 4: sleeping great. I'm sure it's something hormonal blah blah blah.
Speaker 4: So i wake up in the morning and I'm like,
Speaker 4: oh my god, especially when we're filming, I'm like, oh.
Speaker 3: My god, Cancela.
Speaker 4: And it's just the right amount of runny for me,
Speaker 4: Like it doesn't settle in my lines, but it gives
Speaker 4: good coverage. It's glowy, and it's you can find it,
Speaker 4: and it's cheap.
Speaker 3: It lasts all day. I actually have two.
Speaker 2: I have one for my under eyes because my under
Speaker 2: eyes I need a lighter shade because I quite dark.
Speaker 2: Then I have one that's actually my skin color and
Speaker 2: I use it sometimes as foundation for my blemishes.
Speaker 3: Comes the Trae so.
Speaker 4: Lorel truemach Radian serum Conceala It kicks, Claire.
Speaker 3: What do you have today?
Speaker 1: As Holly mentioned, I've got a couple of podcasts and
Speaker 1: I'm going to be a slightly indulgent one today because
Speaker 1: they're both podcasts that I make. Oh so go on
Speaker 1: give yourself some flowers, Clam Murphy, I am going to
Speaker 1: thank you, Miley. I am currently filling in on True
Speaker 1: Crime Conversations because our regular host Jimmy Bath went off
Speaker 1: and had a baby, so her Maternity Live I've been
Speaker 1: covering for the past few months and we have got
Speaker 1: a couple of really cracky interviews coming up if you
Speaker 1: love true crime. Yesterday we dropped an episode with Harold
Speaker 1: Scheckter and he is the absolute foremost expert in ed
Speaker 1: Gean and if you've been watching Ryan Murphy's Monster have
Speaker 1: the third series on ed Gan. He has a lot
Speaker 1: of things.
Speaker 3: To say, so it's a serial killer guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's not a serial killer.
Speaker 3: No, No, your guest isn't. But the monster's Ed Gean. No,
Speaker 3: ed Dean is awesome.
Speaker 1: He was the largs serial killer. So that is part
Speaker 1: of the problem that Harold Scheckter has with Ryan Murphy's
Speaker 1: depiction of Ed Green, because he claims quite a high
Speaker 1: percentage of that story is untrue, which is wild. The
Speaker 1: other one coming up next week is one that I
Speaker 1: feel like I've prepared my entire life to do. I'm
Speaker 1: sitting down with Kathleen Folbick.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, wow, I would love to hear that.
Speaker 1: I'm so honored that she has agreed to come on
Speaker 1: through Crime Conversations to talk about her experience. If you're
Speaker 1: unaware of Kathleen's story, she lost four children over the
Speaker 1: early to late nineties, and she was jailed because she
Speaker 1: was found guilty of their murder. And it turns out
Speaker 1: that there was a DNA issue that could have meant
Speaker 1: there was a very reasonable explanation for the deaths of
Speaker 1: those four babies. So she is now free. She's going
Speaker 1: to be joining me with her friend Tracy, who's been
Speaker 1: literally at her side this entire time, and so I'm excited.
Speaker 1: That's coming next week, so two episodes.
Speaker 3: Edgaine.
Speaker 1: If you're watching Monsters that's already live, go check it out.
Speaker 1: And next week. Kathleen Folbig on True Crime Conversations. Thank you.
Speaker 1: That is me just advertising myself.
Speaker 3: How exciting. Okay, my recommendation.
Speaker 2: I'm actually so excited to have this recommendation because it
Speaker 2: lines up perfectly with your dog dilemma.
Speaker 3: Okay. It is a substack post.
Speaker 2: It's written by an alias named Father Karen or Father Kareen.
Speaker 2: She's an anonymous writer and this post is titled an
Speaker 2: Open Letter to My dog, who, if I'm being honest,
Speaker 2: low key kind of sucks. It is one of the
Speaker 2: funniest things I've read in a really, really long time,
Speaker 2: and as writers, you know, it's really hard to be
Speaker 2: funny in writing funny. I was reading this while I
Speaker 2: was walking to work and I was cackling on the
Speaker 2: sidewalk the city.
Speaker 3: People thought I was insane. It is so so funny.
Speaker 2: It's basically, she talks about being this young girl and
Speaker 2: she adopts a dog. She lives in New York City.
Speaker 2: She adopts a dog. It has all of this past
Speaker 2: trauma and it's actually a really really hard dog to
Speaker 2: look after. And the letter is to her dog and
Speaker 2: saying how much she loves her dog deeply, but also
Speaker 2: going into all of these things that the dog does
Speaker 2: in its life. I want to read this little snippet out.
Speaker 2: It says, one day, while paying my dog walking bill online,
Speaker 2: I saw a note section on your profile. I clicked
Speaker 2: on it and it said be careful, we'll confront large men,
Speaker 2: which is how I found out you were a radical feminist.
Speaker 3: It is so exiity she have a radical feminist. Oh
Speaker 3: my god.
Speaker 2: I think you'd really enjoy it. It's really really funny.
Speaker 2: We'll put a link to it in our show notes.
Speaker 1: I love that it reminds me of rescue shelters who
Speaker 1: like truthfully advertise some of the dogs and they'll be like,
Speaker 1: this guy's just an asshole. He will chew everything you
Speaker 1: own and we'll probably run away, but like, please adopt him.
Speaker 1: That's so fun.
Speaker 4: Hold bless a massive thank you out loud As for
Speaker 4: being with us through our Friday show and all week,
Speaker 4: and of course to you Clemurphy who've been filling in
Speaker 4: for Jesse Stevens all week and doing a bloody stellar job.
Speaker 1: Thank you thank you for having me. It's always fun
Speaker 1: to step in and have a weed chat with you guys.
Speaker 3: Friends, do not forget. You can also watch us on YouTube.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you can see clip pull out all of
Speaker 4: the books that she had. I definitely want to see
Speaker 4: that out loud. As one more thing, I have a
Speaker 4: big question for you. Do you hold a grudge? And
Speaker 4: if you do, when should you let it go? We
Speaker 4: had a conversation on the subscriber episode yesterday about arguably
Speaker 4: the Queen of grudges, Taylor Swift, and discovering that one
Speaker 4: of us loves to hold a grudge while another thinks
Speaker 4: that holding one can actually teach us something. We're going
Speaker 4: to pop a link in the show notes so you
Speaker 4: can listen. Mon's Amelia and Stacey are back in your
Speaker 4: ears tomorrow with a new episode of Parenting Out Loud.
Speaker 4: The guy who created Adolescents has an idea for how
Speaker 4: dads can connect to their sons, but one of the
Speaker 4: hosts is not a fan. They also discuss a kids
Speaker 4: party photo that has everyone up in arms and whether
Speaker 4: we should just say no to some traditions.
Speaker 3: Did someone say elf.
Speaker 4: Find it in its own feed by searching Parenting out
Speaker 4: loud and tap follow so you don't miss an episode.
Speaker 4: A link, as always, will be in the show notes.
Speaker 4: Claire and m thank our team.
Speaker 2: A big thank you to our full team, our group
Speaker 2: executive producer Rute Divine and our executive producer Sasha Tanic.
Speaker 1: Our senior audio producer is the gorgeous Lea Porges, who
Speaker 1: does wear a good power suit. You should check her out.
Speaker 1: Video producer Josh Green, and our junior content producers are
Speaker 1: Coco and Tessa. Bye Bye bye.
Speaker 3: Shout out to any MoMA mia subscribers listening.
Speaker 4: If you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 4: subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to
Speaker 4: do it.
Speaker 3: There's a link in the episode description.