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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud.

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Speaker 4: It's what women are actually talking about on Friday, the

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Speaker 4: twenty fourth of October.

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Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm m Burnham and I'm back again.

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Speaker 3: Hello.

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Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy.

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Speaker 4: Hi Claire, Hello Claire, And here's what's made our agenda

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Speaker 4: for today, a day when, as we always do on

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Speaker 4: Friday shows, we avoid the news like the plague, and

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Speaker 4: we just splash about in whatever we want to talk about,

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Speaker 4: having some fun. We are having some fun, and I

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Speaker 4: want to talk about other people's marriages.

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Speaker 1: I love that because I'm very nosy. Plus I need

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Speaker 1: a little bit of advice from you guys. What to

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Speaker 1: say to dog owners who tell you it's okay, he's

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Speaker 1: friendly when their dog is like running straight at you

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Speaker 1: and you don't know what they're going to do.

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Speaker 2: And cowboys, billionaires and bad boys.

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Speaker 3: No, that is not my dating pressure right now.

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Speaker 2: Why are we all suddenly addicted to happily ever after?

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Speaker 2: But first we have a brand new term to obsess

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Speaker 2: over and it's come from one of our own. It's

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Speaker 2: come from an out louder named Alison. Alison posted in

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Speaker 2: our Facebook group and she said, I've decided to do

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Speaker 2: something I'm calling a shobby. Shobby it's short for short

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Speaker 2: term hobby, right.

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Speaker 4: You're not committing like gardening is my hobby now, My identity's.

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Speaker 3: Long term, and you tell people about it so too much.

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Speaker 3: She said.

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Speaker 2: Basically, I had the urge, for absolutely no earthly reason whatsoever,

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Speaker 2: to learn to wrap the entirety of lose yourself by

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Speaker 2: eminem by girl.

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Speaker 1: His arms are sweaty, these weak arms are heap's vomit

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Speaker 1: on a sweater already mar spaghetti.

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Speaker 4: He's nervous.

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Speaker 2: So, just to clarify that is in fact eminem Allison

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Speaker 2: has not achieved her shop yet, but she hasn'tntil Christmas,

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Speaker 2: so she's got some time.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you for clarifying. I would have been very

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Speaker 1: confused had you not.

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Speaker 3: She says.

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Speaker 2: It's so much fun. No one else even knows I'm

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Speaker 2: doing it. This is my new shebby, just for me.

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Speaker 2: So before we get into it, she's also given us

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Speaker 2: a list of rules for a shokay great. She says,

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Speaker 2: the shobby has to be discreet and time limited. Once

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Speaker 2: it's done, it's done. No signing up for classes, So

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Speaker 2: she can't learn.

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Speaker 4: All the world's to lose yourself and then go, you

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Speaker 4: know what now, I love that. I'm going to learn

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Speaker 4: all the words to fight for your right to party.

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Speaker 4: She can't do an eminem discography.

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Speaker 2: Okay, she's just doing it and she's not telling anyone,

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Speaker 2: and it's like a little party trick she can whip up, right,

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Speaker 2: She said, it's solely for fun, nothing earnest. You might

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Speaker 2: learn something, but that's not the point. It's literally just

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Speaker 2: to give yourself something interesting and the detaining to do

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Speaker 2: to tickle your brain or body. Also, no accountability partners.

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Speaker 2: If you don't do it or finish it, no one

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Speaker 2: knows or cares. It doesn't create clutter to live in

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Speaker 2: the garage. Whatever it is, you can figure it out

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Speaker 2: on YouTube.

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Speaker 3: I love this Scottish shebby's.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I had one without realizing it was

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Speaker 1: a shobby because I had always wanted to participate in

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Speaker 1: a pub choir. Oh yeah, and I did it recently

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Speaker 1: and it was really fun and I never want to

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Speaker 1: do it again.

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Speaker 3: Wait, what's a pub choir. I did that once too.

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Speaker 4: It's a choir but with drinking, So you go to

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Speaker 4: a part I mean, don't have to drink, it's not

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Speaker 4: the rules, but you go and do it in a bar.

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Speaker 4: There's a woman who's made it pub choir, a massive

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Speaker 4: things called astroid. I don't know what a second was anyway,

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Speaker 4: but you can go to one like I went to

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Speaker 4: one at my local RSL when I lived in Sydney.

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Speaker 4: And they teach you a song to be Tuesday night

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Speaker 4: and they teach you a song. They split you into

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Speaker 4: groups and you all everyone has a drink and sings

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Speaker 4: a song and it is very wholesome and very fun.

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Speaker 1: The beauty of it too is that if you're a

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Speaker 1: bit shit, it doesn't really matter because everyone else around

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Speaker 1: you was singing and kind of makes up for it.

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Speaker 3: So it's just like a big karaoke session.

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Speaker 4: I really like the no accountability because regular outlouders will

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Speaker 4: know that. I came back from my holiday this year

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Speaker 4: and I was like, I'm learning Italian. Remember, duelingo became

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Speaker 4: my personality for a while. Do you know how annoying

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Speaker 4: those duo lingo endless freaking? Like, remind hey, don't break

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Speaker 4: your streak, hey, and they text you and they're in

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Speaker 4: the emails and the apps pop it upon it. It's

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Speaker 4: like you are annoying me out of wanting to learn

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Speaker 4: Italian now and.

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Speaker 2: Also would due LINGO from what I remember when I

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Speaker 2: used it briefly, is that you don't actually learn phrases

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Speaker 2: that you need.

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Speaker 3: It's usually stuff like how do I buy this lamp?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm getting a lot of like the red skirts

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Speaker 4: are cheaper than the black skirts.

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, when would I use that?

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you're going over as some kind of

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Speaker 1: shopping adventure for a brand or store, but imagining in

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Speaker 1: day to day life not overly helpful. So did have

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Speaker 1: you stopped?

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Speaker 4: I haven't stopped, But it's touched my inner rebel in

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Speaker 4: that when those come up and they say you're going

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Speaker 4: to break your streak, there's a bit of me because

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Speaker 4: you know, I'm busy person.

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Speaker 3: It's just like you're at the bottom of me. We're

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Speaker 3: little green bird who cares if I break my streak?

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Speaker 3: Like I can start again to I know, but you've

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Speaker 3: already told us. So now we're all asking you. You

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Speaker 3: can't break your stream?

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Speaker 2: What's your shebby my shobby is so I have a

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Speaker 2: little digiticam like a digital camera.

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Speaker 1: I've seen you taking photos in the office. Yes, I've been.

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Speaker 2: Taking a lot of photos on it, and I've started

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Speaker 2: to create little like digital albums and sharing them with

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Speaker 2: my friends and family. But now I feel like I've

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Speaker 2: over committed to this bit that now every single time

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Speaker 2: I'm going to an event, they're all like, where's your

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Speaker 2: digital camera?

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Speaker 3: Accountability? And we need we need to and everyone wants photos.

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Speaker 1: Oh stopping so good at it? Then be a bit

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Speaker 1: shitter and people won't care.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about other people's marriages.

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Speaker 4: Surprise, surprise, specifically our opinions about them and how we

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Speaker 4: project onto them. Right, allow me to present a sub

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Speaker 4: stack and subsequent peace on Mom and Miya that we

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Speaker 4: published in the days after Victoria Beckham's Netflix documentary, and

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Speaker 4: the title of this article was Oh Victoria, your husband

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Speaker 4: is not on your team? And it is written by

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Speaker 4: Holly no relation Bell now. In it, Holly Bell wrote,

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Speaker 4: I have come here to have my say about Victoria

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Speaker 4: Beckham because I am really worried about her. She also wrote,

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Speaker 4: I'm here to stick my nose in where it's not

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Speaker 4: required as usual any claims here are alleged, and this

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Speaker 4: is only my point of view. Your view might be different,

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Speaker 4: and that is good for already being the spice of life.

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Speaker 3: Blah blah. Now I want to be really clear. People

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Speaker 3: in glasshouses.

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Speaker 4: Right, There is a large part of my professional life

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Speaker 4: that is all about dissecting pop culture moments about celebrities.

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Speaker 3: It's a job.

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Speaker 4: It's my job, exactly, and so there's no doubt that

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Speaker 4: I often veer into this kind of stuff where I'm

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Speaker 4: like making a lot of presumptions about people's private lives

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Speaker 4: that are absolutely none of my business.

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Speaker 3: So I'm not being on a high horse about what

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Speaker 3: I'm about to say.

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Speaker 4: It's just that so many people sent me this article

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Speaker 4: by Holly Bell, like even before we published it on

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Speaker 4: MoMA Mea when it was a people dm'd it to me.

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Speaker 3: My friends texted it to me. They were all like,

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Speaker 3: oh my god.

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Speaker 4: This as in like they thought you would agree with it, well,

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Speaker 4: that I would maybe agree with it, that I have

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Speaker 4: a kinto about it, right, yeah, that.

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Speaker 3: I would have thoughts, and of course you don't have thoughts.

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Speaker 4: And now we're here, and now we're here, but I

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Speaker 4: want to unpack a few of Bell's points and then well,

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Speaker 4: I'll talk about why it obsessed me. Basically, the premise

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Speaker 4: of Hollybell's story was that that DOCCO when it came

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Speaker 4: to Victoria and David Beckham together, was full of red flags.

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Speaker 3: She said.

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Speaker 4: Some of the red flags was a long list, but

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Speaker 4: one of them was there was a scene where he's

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Speaker 4: making a smoothie in the kitchen and she says he

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Speaker 4: turned the blender on every time she started speaking, and.

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Speaker 3: That was funny.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was funny for me, it was kind

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Speaker 1: of funny. It depends, I think, on whether he does

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Speaker 1: shit like that all the time or whether that was

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Speaker 1: like a hamming it up for the camerig moment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So Holly Bell's said about that, that what he was

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Speaker 4: insinuating that she's less important than blended vegetables. She can't complain,

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Speaker 4: or she can't take a joke, she can't stop him,

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Speaker 4: or she's being the fun police.

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Speaker 3: Okay, red flag number one, red flag number two.

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Speaker 4: In the infamous Rolls Royce meme, we all remember that

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Speaker 4: from the first David do Co she was talking about

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Speaker 4: being for a working class background and he comes to

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Speaker 4: the door and he's like, tell the truth, Tell the

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Speaker 4: truth and she's like, my dad had a Rolls Royce.

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Speaker 3: Holly Bell writes that this is him being jealous of her.

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Speaker 4: Family's money and uncomfortable because he came from a different background.

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Speaker 1: But we did find out a little bit on context

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Speaker 1: to that Rolls Royce thing in this documentary, because it

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Speaker 1: wasn't like they lived in a palace. They lived in

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Speaker 1: a rundown old place that her dad essentially put together

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Speaker 1: piece by piece whilst also running his electronics business, and

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Speaker 1: so he was really kind of a trade I guess

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Speaker 1: at the heart of it. Also, he was working class.

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Speaker 3: She was really yeah, and we went into this in

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Speaker 3: detail on out loud.

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Speaker 4: This isn't a complex English class system thing see Gin

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Speaker 4: and Coke. Anyway, that's I digress. But what I see

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Speaker 4: when I see that Tell the Truth is a couple

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Speaker 4: who've had a long history and they take the piss

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Speaker 4: out of the stories that everyone tells about themselves. That's

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Speaker 4: what I see, right when I see that bit, I

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Speaker 4: don't see anger. I see like affection and joshing. And

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Speaker 4: this is what I'm getting to, right.

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Speaker 3: It's like how we all see something different in the

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Speaker 3: same things.

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Speaker 4: And then she also says there's a red flag in

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Speaker 4: that bit at the beginning where David offers Victoria a

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Speaker 4: chocolate when he knows she's not going to eat a

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Speaker 4: chocolate and she says something like I haven't eaten chocolate

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Speaker 4: since the nineties, and everyone goes ha ha ha, And

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Speaker 4: then later in the documentary she talks more seriously about

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Speaker 4: her issues with food and disordered eating. Holly Bell wrote,

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Speaker 4: he's telling a story because he was also famously said

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Speaker 4: she won't eat what he cooks for her.

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Speaker 3: She only eats like fish, fish, and vegetables.

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Speaker 4: He's telling this story to paint a negative picture of

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Speaker 4: Victoria while gilding himself with a halo of loving to

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Speaker 4: share food with his wife. She goes on to suggest

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Speaker 4: that he might be Posh's ongoing trigger, that, my friends,

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Speaker 4: is what we call an overstep in the inner us?

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Speaker 3: Is it again? What I see there as a joke,

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Speaker 3: like a bit of a dangerous joke, but a joke.

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Speaker 2: Between two people who've been together for nearly like something

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Speaker 2: that you think he ongoingly like asks her, do you

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Speaker 2: want a piece of chocolate?

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Speaker 3: And the bit is, but do we get the picture right?

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Speaker 4: The Posh doco from my perspective, is a highly managed,

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Speaker 4: highly edited documentary, So I think that what I see

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Speaker 4: in it is I see the bits of their life

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Speaker 4: they wanted to share. Of course, and it's quite lighthearted

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Speaker 4: and it's a bit of a joke. But what other

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Speaker 4: people saw, what Holly Bell saw and a lot of

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Speaker 4: people who loved that story and shared it was a

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Speaker 4: marriage that had serious power dynamics. And this plays into

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Speaker 4: my theory that really when we look at celebrity relationships

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Speaker 4: and we may call our assumptions about them, it's all

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Speaker 4: about our experiences.

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Speaker 3: So if you've had a.

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Speaker 4: Controlling partner who was I mean, and I have in

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Speaker 4: my time but not for a long time, who you know,

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Speaker 4: will be like do you want a piece of chocolate

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Speaker 4: knowing you won't have it, or teasing you about what

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Speaker 4: you're eating, or like poking at a vulnerability of yours,

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Speaker 4: You would probably see that scene really differently to if

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Speaker 4: you're like my husband or my partner or whatever takes

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Speaker 4: the piss out of me.

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Speaker 3: About being on a diet or you know, growing up

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Speaker 3: rich or not. You know what I mean, It's all

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Speaker 3: about what you see and also like what.

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Speaker 2: You want to see, Like you kind of pick and

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Speaker 2: choose how you interpret their interactions between each other. When

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Speaker 2: I watched the documentary, it's interesting because I didn't see

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Speaker 2: everything that Holly saw, who wrote the substack, But I

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Speaker 2: also didn't see affection at all. What I saw was

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Speaker 2: like every other Gen X relationship I've ever seen, where

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Speaker 2: it's like partners who like each other but actually don't

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Speaker 2: really show it out loud, and like especially that end

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Speaker 2: scene where they're walking in the garden and they literally

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Speaker 2: look like best friends because they're not touching each.

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Speaker 3: Other together for nearly thirty years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but like they're not like lovey dovey, But I

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Speaker 2: also don't think they hate each other. And I like,

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Speaker 2: it just looks like an average relationship. Like not definitely

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Speaker 2: not the relationship I would want ever, but it just

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Speaker 2: looks average.

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Speaker 1: We expecting it to look like a fairy tale because

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Speaker 1: their beginnings were so fairy tale, so we expect that

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Speaker 1: fairy tale to have extended for thirty years. Is that

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Speaker 1: what we're hoping?

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Speaker 3: Well, should look like they at least like it.

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Speaker 4: I think they definitely look like they like each other.

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Speaker 4: I think they look like they like each other a lot.

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Speaker 4: But do you think Murphy that one of the reasons

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Speaker 4: we're so obsessed with other people's marriages, like whether they're

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Speaker 4: celebrities or people we sort of adja like, no, by all,

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Speaker 4: look at that couple over there that I'm talking over dinner,

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Speaker 4: or look at those people over there, look at how

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Speaker 4: he didn't pull a chair out, or whatever it is,

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Speaker 4: because we're kind of raw shark testing things, like you know,

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Speaker 4: we see what we see according to our own experiences.

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Speaker 1: I think that is absolutely bang on, because I would

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Speaker 1: actually hate for cameras to come in and record what

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Speaker 1: Adam and I, my husband and I say to each

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Speaker 1: other sometimes because we are constantly taking the piss out

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Speaker 1: of each other in ways that require some law to

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Speaker 1: be learned before you can and participate. And so they

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Speaker 1: looking in at us might think we are absolute assholes

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Speaker 1: to each other. But the reality is that's a long

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Speaker 1: history of funny things that we've collected over the years

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Speaker 1: and we internally find hilarious. But people looking in would

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Speaker 1: be like, oh my god, do you guys even like

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Speaker 1: each other? Whereas like we go to bed at night

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Speaker 1: laughing at other people who might think that we don't

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Speaker 1: like each other, if you know what I mean. So,

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Speaker 1: like I felt that a little bit from passion becks.

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Speaker 1: I also feel like they've never had an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: just kind of be to like settle and not put

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Speaker 1: on a show. Like their entire lives essentially have been

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Speaker 1: showmanship from her, from him, from both of them together.

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Speaker 1: Now they're family because as you know, you've probably mentioned that,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's some family members that do not rate

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Speaker 1: a mention during the recording of Victoria Beckham. Their whole

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Speaker 1: life is a show, so maybe they just don't put

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Speaker 1: on the PDAs. Although the one thing I did find

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Speaker 1: a little bit uncomfortable is that Victoria seemed outwardly affectionate

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Speaker 1: to him, and he didn't seem to return it very often.

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Speaker 1: And I think think that is when you mentioned gen

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Speaker 1: X couples, and I think that is sometimes a bit

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Speaker 1: of an m O for gen X couples, where men

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Speaker 1: are supposed to kind of be this unemotional sort of

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Speaker 1: flat line when it comes to certain things, but when

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Speaker 1: they talk about say cars or football, or, in you

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Speaker 1: know Beckham's case, his food, they're allowed to be emotional

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Speaker 1: and passionate about that garden. Yeah, the garden, like the

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Speaker 1: chickens whatever. He seems very excited by.

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Speaker 3: He loves the garden.

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Speaker 4: Celebrity relationships. I mean, I know you're probably too sensible

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Speaker 4: for this, murf, but I might be wrong. And I

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Speaker 4: know AM's got some good examples, But are there any

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Speaker 4: celebrity relationships that you do look at and either go,

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Speaker 4: you know, I want to emulate that, or oh I

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Speaker 4: feel that, so you know, like I do that raw

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Speaker 4: shark testing stuff on.

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Speaker 1: Naomi Watts and her husband Billy crudd Up. I think

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Speaker 1: I look at them, but they are like married later

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Speaker 1: in life couple, which is really different from say, Hugh

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Speaker 1: Jackman and Debraly Finesse, who got married quite young, and

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Speaker 1: then we've seen them kind of progress out of love.

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Speaker 1: And so I I felt like we held up some

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Speaker 1: of these couples and thought, like, if they fail, then

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Speaker 1: surely I can't not fail too, because they've presented this

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Speaker 1: fairytale ideal of what marriage looks like to the outset,

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Speaker 1: and we saw this with Nicole and Keith too. And

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Speaker 1: something someone said to me a little while ago is

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Speaker 1: I used to get really upset that my husband doesn't

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Speaker 1: post stuff about us on social media. In fact, he

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Speaker 1: doesn't post anything, but like I was upset that, like

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Speaker 1: not even a happy birthday, not even like a look

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Speaker 1: at this woman on my wedding anniversary. Nothing right. And

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Speaker 1: then a friend said to me, look, it is often

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Speaker 1: a measure of an insecure relationship if there's too much

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Speaker 1: posting on social media. And I looked into it a

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Speaker 1: little bit, and there is a lot of research around that,

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Speaker 1: and that we saw Nicole quite regularly posting lovey dovey

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Speaker 1: stuff about Keith and he's kind of like he'll chuck

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Speaker 1: an emoji and every now and then, so less kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, reaction from him. And so was that

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Speaker 1: her trying to cover up the fact that she was

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Speaker 1: really insecure in her relationship. So yes, I've held up

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Speaker 1: some of these marriages over time and gone like I

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Speaker 1: would love to be like that, love to be like that.

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Speaker 1: But then eventually you kind of look at them and

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00:16:12,022 --> 00:16:14,222
Speaker 1: you go, we're all kind of similar, except I have

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Speaker 1: less outward pressure from money probably and way less money,

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Speaker 1: and you know, no one's stalking me outside my front door.

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Speaker 3: Emma. The celebrity couples that you go, that's what I want.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, Okay, I need to talk about Dua

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Speaker 2: Lipa and Callum Turner.

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Speaker 3: Have you guys seen them today?

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Speaker 4: In fact, that they allegedly met and were sitting next

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Speaker 4: to each other at a party and they realized they're

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Speaker 4: reading the same.

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Speaker 3: Book page and that's why they fell in love. And

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Speaker 3: I was like that, and that you're the two hottest

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Speaker 3: people party by about a million.

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Speaker 1: I'm googling them right now. I need to see images

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Speaker 1: of them.

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Speaker 3: They're very PDA. Yeah, I do not believe that meat

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Speaker 3: cute story, although that's very cute.

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Speaker 4: And also it plays into something we've discussed before, and

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Speaker 4: which is there's nothing hotter than a man who reads.

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Speaker 4: If he's doing all that's a true story, then good

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Speaker 4: for him. And if it's not a true story, then

378
00:17:04,821 --> 00:17:06,742
Speaker 4: good for him for being smart enough. Because everyone knows

379
00:17:06,821 --> 00:17:07,782
Speaker 4: Jua Lipa likes to reach.

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Speaker 3: He has a bottle. Anyway, I digress, goem these two

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00:17:11,942 --> 00:17:16,182
Speaker 3: extremely attractive people. When they are together, it's.

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Speaker 2: Like, I don't think they're allowed to not touch each other.

383
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Speaker 2: He's always has his hands around her hips. They're always giggling,

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Speaker 2: they're always making out, they're always laughing into each other's mouths.

385
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Speaker 3: It is like I can't look away, no, and it

386
00:17:31,141 --> 00:17:34,981
Speaker 3: loves them. Just said so, and similar to.

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Speaker 2: Like your sad gen X celebrity relationships, like they're the

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00:17:40,141 --> 00:17:43,101
Speaker 2: relationship that I feel like younger women are holding onto

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Speaker 2: and they're telling us, like, that's exactly how relationships should be.

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Speaker 4: But and I hate to be this person, but I've

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00:17:49,702 --> 00:17:52,461
Speaker 4: got to be this person. Do you think they're going

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00:17:52,542 --> 00:17:54,941
Speaker 4: to be doing exactly that in twenty years if they

393
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Speaker 4: stay together for twenty years, go through a whole.

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Speaker 1: Lot, Oh my god, if they're laughing into each other's

395
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Speaker 1: mouths in twenty years time.

396
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Speaker 4: Lo, you have to have they have to have respect

397
00:18:05,262 --> 00:18:07,621
Speaker 4: for the fact that love changes and grows and doesn't

398
00:18:07,661 --> 00:18:09,621
Speaker 4: look the same all the time, but it's still a

399
00:18:09,702 --> 00:18:12,621
Speaker 4: real thing, you know what I mean. Like, so again,

400
00:18:12,861 --> 00:18:14,782
Speaker 4: I think that they're a wonderful.

401
00:18:14,702 --> 00:18:16,661
Speaker 3: Raw shark, like he loves he loudly.

402
00:18:16,861 --> 00:18:18,701
Speaker 4: Yeah, you want someone to fall in love with you

403
00:18:18,901 --> 00:18:21,222
Speaker 4: like that, to be so proud of you like that,

404
00:18:21,821 --> 00:18:25,341
Speaker 4: find you irresistible like that, But you acknowledge they're in

405
00:18:25,381 --> 00:18:26,302
Speaker 4: a honeymoon face.

406
00:18:26,502 --> 00:18:29,821
Speaker 3: No, No, this is them, this is them forever, like

407
00:18:29,901 --> 00:18:32,621
Speaker 3: he loves a loudly. Very many grown up couples with

408
00:18:32,742 --> 00:18:33,381
Speaker 3: children who.

409
00:18:33,262 --> 00:18:33,742
Speaker 2: Still do that.

410
00:18:34,341 --> 00:18:36,381
Speaker 3: Well, No, I have a lot of friends who are

411
00:18:36,502 --> 00:18:38,861
Speaker 3: like that. But have they been together twenty years.

412
00:18:39,182 --> 00:18:42,742
Speaker 2: No, but it's just like he loves a loudly and

413
00:18:42,982 --> 00:18:45,501
Speaker 2: like he made me realize I never want a nonchalant man.

414
00:18:45,581 --> 00:18:48,861
Speaker 2: I want my man to be as chalant as possible, out.

415
00:18:48,742 --> 00:18:51,821
Speaker 1: Loud as up next, I am bringing my dilemma to

416
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Speaker 1: the table because I have a dog that does not

417
00:18:55,742 --> 00:19:04,381
Speaker 1: like other dogs. But other dog owners don't seem to care. So, ladies,

418
00:19:04,422 --> 00:19:06,542
Speaker 1: you know how sometimes we do chats in the subscriber

419
00:19:06,661 --> 00:19:09,141
Speaker 1: episodes of Mamma Me are out loud where people riding

420
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Speaker 1: their delay. I would like to take this opportunity to

421
00:19:12,742 --> 00:19:15,061
Speaker 1: do one on myself, if that's okay with you.

422
00:19:16,101 --> 00:19:16,742
Speaker 3: I have a dog.

423
00:19:17,341 --> 00:19:20,022
Speaker 1: She is one of my very best friends. She's a

424
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Speaker 1: Scottish deer hound cross with a border Collie kelpie. So

425
00:19:23,101 --> 00:19:25,421
Speaker 1: black and white, short haired, very long legs, and I

426
00:19:25,542 --> 00:19:29,581
Speaker 1: love her desperately. She sounds very fast, She is for

427
00:19:29,861 --> 00:19:32,542
Speaker 1: very short bursts of time and then sleeps a lot.

428
00:19:32,982 --> 00:19:35,341
Speaker 3: She's a rescue. She I remember when you got her.

429
00:19:35,381 --> 00:19:37,181
Speaker 4: I think we may have got our dogs around the

430
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Speaker 4: same time, so tightly bonded to Sydney.

431
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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 1: So the thing with her, and the thing with rescues

433
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Speaker 1: in general, is you never really know what you're going

434
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Speaker 1: to get behaviorally when this dog arrives. And she was

435
00:19:48,901 --> 00:19:50,821
Speaker 1: a pandemic puppy, so I got all the time in

436
00:19:50,901 --> 00:19:53,061
Speaker 1: the world to spend at home with her learning her.

437
00:19:53,742 --> 00:19:57,422
Speaker 1: Now we've taken her to professional trainers because she does

438
00:19:57,462 --> 00:20:00,141
Speaker 1: not like men, so we seem to have gotten her

439
00:20:00,222 --> 00:20:04,101
Speaker 1: past that she's recovering. However, she had a run in

440
00:20:04,182 --> 00:20:07,701
Speaker 1: with a tiny dog and it has changed her personality now. No,

441
00:20:08,262 --> 00:20:10,261
Speaker 1: if you've never owned a tiny dog dog, they can

442
00:20:10,302 --> 00:20:12,901
Speaker 1: be quite aggressive. They may have some kind of small

443
00:20:12,942 --> 00:20:14,502
Speaker 1: man syndrome. I don't know what it is, but they

444
00:20:14,502 --> 00:20:16,542
Speaker 1: will take on bigger dogs with little care.

445
00:20:16,821 --> 00:20:19,661
Speaker 3: They will. My dog doesn't like little dogs, and no

446
00:20:19,782 --> 00:20:22,061
Speaker 3: prejudices against little dogs. They're very cute, but they do

447
00:20:22,302 --> 00:20:23,861
Speaker 3: like to come up and have a goat, don't they.

448
00:20:23,942 --> 00:20:26,462
Speaker 1: They really really do. And the thing about little dogs,

449
00:20:26,502 --> 00:20:28,981
Speaker 1: and I want to say also extends to little dog owners,

450
00:20:29,101 --> 00:20:30,621
Speaker 1: is the thought that they're a little dog and can

451
00:20:30,661 --> 00:20:33,221
Speaker 1: do no harm allows them to touch more freedom than

452
00:20:33,262 --> 00:20:36,022
Speaker 1: say a bigger dog that looks a little scarier. So

453
00:20:36,621 --> 00:20:38,141
Speaker 1: we've done a lot of training with her. However, the

454
00:20:38,341 --> 00:20:41,061
Speaker 1: running with the little dog has meant she now really

455
00:20:41,222 --> 00:20:44,141
Speaker 1: does not like little dogs. So I am very careful

456
00:20:44,182 --> 00:20:45,741
Speaker 1: about when I walk her. I take her out at

457
00:20:45,782 --> 00:20:48,021
Speaker 1: times of day when I know, like lots of other

458
00:20:48,061 --> 00:20:50,222
Speaker 1: people will be out and about when we go away.

459
00:20:50,341 --> 00:20:53,821
Speaker 1: Sometimes that's unavoidable. And I had an interaction with a

460
00:20:53,861 --> 00:20:56,141
Speaker 1: lady on the beach, and I want to preface this

461
00:20:56,302 --> 00:20:58,901
Speaker 1: by saying I do not have a problem with people

462
00:20:58,901 --> 00:21:02,661
Speaker 1: walking their dogs off leash if you know how to

463
00:21:03,101 --> 00:21:06,702
Speaker 1: recall your dog when it is necessary. I also want

464
00:21:06,742 --> 00:21:09,821
Speaker 1: to say I never walk my dog in specific off

465
00:21:09,942 --> 00:21:12,222
Speaker 1: leash areas that I know people are allowed to have

466
00:21:12,341 --> 00:21:14,662
Speaker 1: their dogs off leash. There are lots of places where

467
00:21:14,702 --> 00:21:16,621
Speaker 1: dogs are off leish where they're not supposed to be.

468
00:21:17,341 --> 00:21:19,341
Speaker 1: So I was walking my dog on the beach and

469
00:21:19,861 --> 00:21:23,381
Speaker 1: a small dog came barreling at my dog, barking, and

470
00:21:23,462 --> 00:21:25,702
Speaker 1: I thought, holy shit, this is going to end badly.

471
00:21:25,982 --> 00:21:29,061
Speaker 1: So I stepped in between them and very loudly yelled

472
00:21:29,381 --> 00:21:32,261
Speaker 1: no at this dog right and thank god it stopped.

473
00:21:32,982 --> 00:21:35,101
Speaker 1: But the owner, who was quite a ways away, approached

474
00:21:35,141 --> 00:21:39,222
Speaker 1: me and said, it's okay, he's friendly, which is great.

475
00:21:39,302 --> 00:21:41,021
Speaker 1: And like if I was by myself and your dog

476
00:21:41,101 --> 00:21:43,381
Speaker 1: came running at me, I would love nothing more than

477
00:21:43,462 --> 00:21:45,262
Speaker 1: to get to know your dog on a personal level.

478
00:21:45,422 --> 00:21:47,901
Speaker 1: Like I love dogs. I will pat strangers dogs with

479
00:21:48,022 --> 00:21:51,941
Speaker 1: permission all the time. However, my dog is not friendly

480
00:21:52,061 --> 00:21:54,901
Speaker 1: to your dog, and if your little dog comes running up,

481
00:21:54,982 --> 00:21:59,341
Speaker 1: I can't guarantee that my beautiful, big, slightly mentally traumatized

482
00:21:59,381 --> 00:22:02,821
Speaker 1: dog won't do something that might injure your small dog.

483
00:22:04,302 --> 00:22:05,822
Speaker 3: This is tricky. So what happened?

484
00:22:06,222 --> 00:22:09,222
Speaker 1: So the lady got a little angry with me because

485
00:22:09,222 --> 00:22:11,421
Speaker 1: I said to her, my dog's not friendly, can you

486
00:22:11,462 --> 00:22:13,942
Speaker 1: please put your dog on a leash? And she went, ah,

487
00:22:14,262 --> 00:22:15,982
Speaker 1: put your dog on a leash, and it started that

488
00:22:16,101 --> 00:22:16,661
Speaker 1: whole business.

489
00:22:16,782 --> 00:22:23,302
Speaker 4: Oh no, the confrontations with dogs is always bad, bad, bad,

490
00:22:23,422 --> 00:22:23,821
Speaker 4: Yeah it is.

491
00:22:24,022 --> 00:22:27,821
Speaker 1: And people are passionate about off leash dog walking and

492
00:22:28,542 --> 00:22:30,621
Speaker 1: they don't mind their dog goes up to other dogs

493
00:22:30,661 --> 00:22:32,221
Speaker 1: because their dog is friendly and they know that they

494
00:22:32,262 --> 00:22:35,022
Speaker 1: don't have any issues. So I just don't know how

495
00:22:35,141 --> 00:22:37,022
Speaker 1: to have this because I didn't handle it well after

496
00:22:37,141 --> 00:22:37,862
Speaker 1: she kind.

497
00:22:37,702 --> 00:22:40,542
Speaker 3: Of did you do fisty cuffs? I'm just imagining. And

498
00:22:40,621 --> 00:22:41,542
Speaker 3: then I got arrested.

499
00:22:43,262 --> 00:22:44,422
Speaker 1: I'm currently on probation.

500
00:22:44,702 --> 00:22:47,982
Speaker 3: No I And then I murdered a woman from the beach.

501
00:22:48,821 --> 00:22:51,462
Speaker 1: I mean, it came close, but we like we were yelling,

502
00:22:51,581 --> 00:22:54,341
Speaker 1: and I was like, I can't stop your dog. I

503
00:22:54,462 --> 00:22:56,942
Speaker 1: needed to stop your dog before she gets to my dog.

504
00:22:57,022 --> 00:22:58,782
Speaker 1: And she's like, well, then you shouldn't be walking your

505
00:22:58,821 --> 00:23:00,421
Speaker 1: dog out in public. Like it all went like that

506
00:23:00,502 --> 00:23:03,182
Speaker 1: and it was really yucky. But now I just don't

507
00:23:03,262 --> 00:23:06,302
Speaker 1: know what do I say to those people in that situation.

508
00:23:06,621 --> 00:23:07,982
Speaker 4: Look Out louder are going to have a lot of

509
00:23:08,022 --> 00:23:10,222
Speaker 4: opinions about this, because this is one of those things.

510
00:23:10,381 --> 00:23:11,582
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is one of those things.

511
00:23:11,621 --> 00:23:14,901
Speaker 4: Because similarly, my dog, she's lovely dog, of course I

512
00:23:14,982 --> 00:23:17,501
Speaker 4: think that, And we walk her along the river near

513
00:23:17,542 --> 00:23:19,222
Speaker 4: my place and it is an off lead area and

514
00:23:19,422 --> 00:23:21,462
Speaker 4: I'll have her off lead, but when I see a

515
00:23:21,661 --> 00:23:23,821
Speaker 4: small dog approaching.

516
00:23:23,742 --> 00:23:25,342
Speaker 3: I'll always put my dog on the lead.

517
00:23:25,581 --> 00:23:28,941
Speaker 4: Quit Again, she's not mad keen on little dogs, and

518
00:23:29,022 --> 00:23:30,941
Speaker 4: I would hate for there to be a scene.

519
00:23:32,581 --> 00:23:32,742
Speaker 3: Now.

520
00:23:32,861 --> 00:23:36,302
Speaker 4: I think responsible dog owners usually when they see you

521
00:23:36,502 --> 00:23:39,141
Speaker 4: do that, like when they see that you're doing that

522
00:23:39,302 --> 00:23:41,901
Speaker 4: putting your dog on the lead, they will do the same.

523
00:23:42,222 --> 00:23:45,742
Speaker 4: Like it's like a mirroring behavior, like an unspoken mirroring behavior,

524
00:23:45,821 --> 00:23:48,821
Speaker 4: like they'll go, oh, that dog obviously, so you know,

525
00:23:49,022 --> 00:23:50,421
Speaker 4: and then they'll put their dog on the lead and

526
00:23:50,502 --> 00:23:52,061
Speaker 4: you walk past each other and you go hi, and

527
00:23:52,141 --> 00:23:54,901
Speaker 4: then you move on with your lives. But when people

528
00:23:55,022 --> 00:23:57,702
Speaker 4: don't do that, and I've had exactly the same thing happen, Claire,

529
00:23:57,742 --> 00:23:59,502
Speaker 4: the little dog will come barreling up and really be

530
00:23:59,621 --> 00:24:01,022
Speaker 4: like remember, and you're like.

531
00:24:01,341 --> 00:24:04,222
Speaker 1: Please go away, please go and you're like shitting yourself,

532
00:24:04,341 --> 00:24:06,222
Speaker 1: like this is a real bad qu.

533
00:24:06,262 --> 00:24:09,222
Speaker 4: I know it's really tricky, but I don't think there's

534
00:24:09,222 --> 00:24:11,061
Speaker 4: a perfec to answer to it, because yes, I think

535
00:24:11,141 --> 00:24:14,461
Speaker 4: ideally everybody's hyper aware of this stuff and like, oh,

536
00:24:14,542 --> 00:24:15,422
Speaker 4: that dog looks.

537
00:24:15,222 --> 00:24:17,022
Speaker 3: Like it's got issues, I'll put it up. But they're not.

538
00:24:17,182 --> 00:24:20,141
Speaker 4: They're talking to their mate, they're doing something else. They're thinking,

539
00:24:20,262 --> 00:24:22,861
Speaker 4: my dog's fine, so my dog's fine, And I just

540
00:24:22,982 --> 00:24:24,661
Speaker 4: don't know, Like I think we have to just have

541
00:24:24,742 --> 00:24:27,221
Speaker 4: a contract where we have to assume people are generally

542
00:24:27,302 --> 00:24:27,982
Speaker 4: doing their best.

543
00:24:28,101 --> 00:24:32,262
Speaker 2: I also feel like dog culture has changed so much

544
00:24:32,901 --> 00:24:35,861
Speaker 2: since I've had my family dogs, which I think they

545
00:24:35,982 --> 00:24:39,102
Speaker 2: passed away like a few years ago now, But when

546
00:24:39,182 --> 00:24:40,661
Speaker 2: we had our dogs and we were growing up with

547
00:24:40,782 --> 00:24:43,742
Speaker 2: our dogs, I don't think I ever saw a dog

548
00:24:43,982 --> 00:24:45,941
Speaker 2: off the lead like it was just given that your

549
00:24:46,022 --> 00:24:48,622
Speaker 2: dog would always be on the lead, and then if

550
00:24:48,742 --> 00:24:50,742
Speaker 2: dogs were crossing, you would know it would be like

551
00:24:50,782 --> 00:24:53,262
Speaker 2: a slightly dangerous dog because you owly will pull them

552
00:24:53,341 --> 00:24:55,341
Speaker 2: like well off the path and then like exactly what

553
00:24:55,422 --> 00:24:57,542
Speaker 2: you said, hold, then I'd pull my dogs well off

554
00:24:57,581 --> 00:25:00,022
Speaker 2: the path because they had had a few run ins

555
00:25:00,101 --> 00:25:02,581
Speaker 2: with like dogs trying to attack them, and then they

556
00:25:02,581 --> 00:25:04,302
Speaker 2: would get scared and then we have to lift them.

557
00:25:04,302 --> 00:25:06,221
Speaker 2: And they were like these big beagles and they were

558
00:25:06,302 --> 00:25:08,941
Speaker 2: so and they just hated being on the crowd.

559
00:25:09,022 --> 00:25:11,502
Speaker 4: It was like this, we are I think you're right,

560
00:25:11,621 --> 00:25:13,341
Speaker 4: and I think there're also dog owners a little bit.

561
00:25:13,661 --> 00:25:16,262
Speaker 4: We're all a bit biased towards our dogs, right, So

562
00:25:16,901 --> 00:25:18,582
Speaker 4: even though I do that with my dog, I put

563
00:25:18,581 --> 00:25:20,222
Speaker 4: her on the lead to avoid little dogs. If I'm

564
00:25:20,262 --> 00:25:23,182
Speaker 4: walking her past a little dog and the owner picks

565
00:25:23,182 --> 00:25:25,061
Speaker 4: the little dog up protectively, like keep.

566
00:25:24,901 --> 00:25:27,381
Speaker 3: You away from that beast, I'm a bit like, you know,

567
00:25:27,901 --> 00:25:31,502
Speaker 3: vested on my dog's behalf my dog even though.

568
00:25:31,621 --> 00:25:35,902
Speaker 1: Right like go get that dog, but also too, I've

569
00:25:35,901 --> 00:25:37,901
Speaker 1: had a moment where like I even put her in

570
00:25:38,341 --> 00:25:43,182
Speaker 1: a vest, a big yellow vest that said nervous, full

571
00:25:43,262 --> 00:25:45,341
Speaker 1: high vis trading style because this is back when she

572
00:25:45,462 --> 00:25:47,742
Speaker 1: hated men, when she was in training, And so I

573
00:25:47,782 --> 00:25:49,581
Speaker 1: put her in the big high ve's vest and I

574
00:25:49,702 --> 00:25:51,742
Speaker 1: presumed that that would be warning enough for people to

575
00:25:51,821 --> 00:25:54,142
Speaker 1: kind of stay away from her. But it was not enough.

576
00:25:54,182 --> 00:25:57,142
Speaker 1: I was standing had a set of traffic lights, well

577
00:25:57,182 --> 00:26:00,542
Speaker 1: away from everybody else, and then I heard my dog's

578
00:26:00,661 --> 00:26:04,901
Speaker 1: jaws snap, like you know that real dog snap like

579
00:26:04,982 --> 00:26:07,621
Speaker 1: they've gone to bite someone. And I've turned around and

580
00:26:07,702 --> 00:26:10,181
Speaker 1: there was a man trying to pat her who's come

581
00:26:10,262 --> 00:26:13,262
Speaker 1: up from behind me, And I was like, oh my god,

582
00:26:13,302 --> 00:26:14,262
Speaker 1: if you don't be trying to.

583
00:26:14,302 --> 00:26:17,222
Speaker 3: Fast, always ask if you're going to pad a dog exactly.

584
00:26:17,262 --> 00:26:19,742
Speaker 1: And she's wearing a giant yellow vest that says nervous,

585
00:26:19,861 --> 00:26:20,942
Speaker 1: like please.

586
00:26:21,182 --> 00:26:22,821
Speaker 2: I think it was a yellow vest. If I saw

587
00:26:22,821 --> 00:26:24,581
Speaker 2: a yellow vest on dog, I'm like, I'm padding that dog.

588
00:26:25,381 --> 00:26:26,542
Speaker 2: It's wearing a yellow vest.

589
00:26:26,661 --> 00:26:28,621
Speaker 1: Oh no, it was more of an attractant and a

590
00:26:28,702 --> 00:26:31,982
Speaker 1: different I hate that. Please, like help me out loud

591
00:26:32,022 --> 00:26:34,381
Speaker 1: as if you have got a way to handle the

592
00:26:34,462 --> 00:26:36,581
Speaker 1: people that say, oh, it's okay, he's friendly when your

593
00:26:36,621 --> 00:26:38,901
Speaker 1: dog is not, Like, what do you do that doesn't

594
00:26:39,141 --> 00:26:42,661
Speaker 1: result in a murder happening? Afterwards between dog owners.

595
00:26:42,782 --> 00:26:45,421
Speaker 4: I have one quick anecdote to add to that, right is,

596
00:26:45,581 --> 00:26:48,262
Speaker 4: in my neighborhood, one time, tune at my dog had

597
00:26:48,302 --> 00:26:49,662
Speaker 4: to run in with another local dog.

598
00:26:49,821 --> 00:26:51,982
Speaker 3: This dog is literally called Damien.

599
00:26:54,022 --> 00:26:59,022
Speaker 4: And of the omen Okay, See, one of the things

600
00:26:59,022 --> 00:27:00,742
Speaker 4: about dogs is you do have to accept that, even

601
00:27:00,742 --> 00:27:02,542
Speaker 4: when they're very well trained, they are wild animals and

602
00:27:02,542 --> 00:27:05,222
Speaker 4: shit's going to happen sometimes, right, And these dogs used

603
00:27:05,222 --> 00:27:07,141
Speaker 4: to play together really happily, and one day they didn't

604
00:27:07,542 --> 00:27:11,182
Speaker 4: and Damien bit on the neck and Tuna was quite

605
00:27:12,141 --> 00:27:12,981
Speaker 4: she had go to hospital.

606
00:27:13,022 --> 00:27:13,662
Speaker 3: It was a whole thing.

607
00:27:13,982 --> 00:27:16,302
Speaker 4: We've never been to that dog polk since. But the

608
00:27:16,381 --> 00:27:19,221
Speaker 4: next time I saw them on the road, like Damien

609
00:27:19,302 --> 00:27:20,782
Speaker 4: and his owner and they walking down the road and

610
00:27:20,861 --> 00:27:23,622
Speaker 4: I saw him and I kind of waved and I said, oh, hi, Demon,

611
00:27:23,821 --> 00:27:28,181
Speaker 4: I said, and the woman was like, it's not called Demon,

612
00:27:28,222 --> 00:27:29,902
Speaker 4: And I was thinking, shiit, what's he called.

613
00:27:30,542 --> 00:27:32,101
Speaker 3: I know he's a devil dog. I know he's a

614
00:27:32,222 --> 00:27:37,341
Speaker 3: bad dog. I mean, there's just a lot of pitfalls.

615
00:27:38,061 --> 00:27:40,702
Speaker 1: But also Damien is like an a one class name

616
00:27:40,742 --> 00:27:42,542
Speaker 1: for a dog. I think that is my next one.

617
00:27:43,542 --> 00:27:49,101
Speaker 4: I want to talk about romance specifically, romance books, Murphy,

618
00:27:49,182 --> 00:27:51,261
Speaker 4: you love them, right, So I have the right company

619
00:27:51,302 --> 00:27:52,101
Speaker 4: for this conversation.

620
00:27:53,542 --> 00:27:55,862
Speaker 3: I could talk about it all, which is good because.

621
00:27:55,581 --> 00:27:57,542
Speaker 4: One thing we have learned on the show before is

622
00:27:57,581 --> 00:28:00,461
Speaker 4: that romance booklovers are very passionate and they all get

623
00:28:00,542 --> 00:28:02,461
Speaker 4: very upset if you do them wrong. But I am

624
00:28:02,542 --> 00:28:06,302
Speaker 4: not intending to do anyone wrong. I went to a

625
00:28:06,502 --> 00:28:08,942
Speaker 4: romance riding masterclass on the weekend.

626
00:28:10,782 --> 00:28:12,421
Speaker 3: I know it's quite sexy.

627
00:28:12,702 --> 00:28:14,141
Speaker 1: Am I going to be reading a book by you?

628
00:28:14,381 --> 00:28:14,542
Speaker 4: Soon?

629
00:28:15,302 --> 00:28:16,821
Speaker 3: We're going to get a manny novel from you.

630
00:28:16,982 --> 00:28:19,221
Speaker 4: I have not. Look, don't worry romance writers. I am

631
00:28:19,302 --> 00:28:22,502
Speaker 4: not trying to muscle my way into your genre. But

632
00:28:22,702 --> 00:28:24,222
Speaker 4: with the book I am writing at the minute, it

633
00:28:24,262 --> 00:28:25,942
Speaker 4: does have like a love story in it, and it's

634
00:28:26,022 --> 00:28:28,222
Speaker 4: really hard to write. So I was like, let's find

635
00:28:28,222 --> 00:28:30,302
Speaker 4: out what the experts know about this shit. So I

636
00:28:30,381 --> 00:28:32,381
Speaker 4: went to a masterclass that was run by this really

637
00:28:32,581 --> 00:28:35,782
Speaker 4: successful Australian romance writer called Claire Connolly or.

638
00:28:35,821 --> 00:28:36,942
Speaker 1: She does a lot of the Billionaire.

639
00:28:37,022 --> 00:28:40,022
Speaker 4: Yes, it does right, And I haven't been able to

640
00:28:40,102 --> 00:28:43,382
Speaker 4: stop thinking about it since, because this is like an

641
00:28:43,582 --> 00:28:45,941
Speaker 4: entire world that I didn't really know about, and I

642
00:28:46,062 --> 00:28:47,582
Speaker 4: just want to give you a few facts before we

643
00:28:48,102 --> 00:28:50,142
Speaker 4: jump into why, because I know Murphy will be able

644
00:28:50,142 --> 00:28:52,702
Speaker 4: to tell us exactly why right. One of the reasons

645
00:28:52,742 --> 00:28:54,461
Speaker 4: why I found this so fascinating is I haven't been

646
00:28:54,462 --> 00:28:56,422
Speaker 4: able to stop thinking about what it tells us about women,

647
00:28:56,822 --> 00:28:59,421
Speaker 4: and also about the books that we definitely do not

648
00:28:59,582 --> 00:29:02,382
Speaker 4: read about in all the swanky literary pages of the

649
00:29:02,422 --> 00:29:08,702
Speaker 4: broadsheet newspapers are selling their freaking socks off. Right. According

650
00:29:08,782 --> 00:29:12,342
Speaker 4: to Nielsen Books Scan Australia, three million romance books valued

651
00:29:12,382 --> 00:29:15,181
Speaker 4: at forty six and a half million sold in the

652
00:29:15,342 --> 00:29:17,661
Speaker 4: last year in twenty twenty four. And the thing is

653
00:29:17,661 --> 00:29:21,582
Speaker 4: about that number is that does not include audio or ebooks,

654
00:29:22,062 --> 00:29:25,342
Speaker 4: and so much romance is read on ebooks, So imagine

655
00:29:25,382 --> 00:29:28,822
Speaker 4: what physical actually is, right, Imagine what that number actually is.

656
00:29:29,182 --> 00:29:31,902
Speaker 4: It's a genre that is up by forty nine percent

657
00:29:31,982 --> 00:29:34,701
Speaker 4: in Australia alone, forty nine percent, when the rest of

658
00:29:34,742 --> 00:29:35,421
Speaker 4: the market.

659
00:29:35,262 --> 00:29:36,941
Speaker 3: Is quite hughuge.

660
00:29:37,462 --> 00:29:42,062
Speaker 4: So there is clearly a bottomless desire for these books.

661
00:29:42,102 --> 00:29:43,902
Speaker 4: And I want to talk about the kind of books

662
00:29:43,902 --> 00:29:47,462
Speaker 4: we're talking about. I'm talking not necessarily about romance c

663
00:29:48,062 --> 00:29:50,222
Speaker 4: although that does fall into this, and obviously that is

664
00:29:50,302 --> 00:29:52,701
Speaker 4: responsible for a lot of this big boost and all

665
00:29:52,862 --> 00:29:55,102
Speaker 4: the attention that it's brought with it, and TikTok and

666
00:29:55,142 --> 00:29:56,822
Speaker 4: all those kind of things are responsible for it too.

667
00:29:57,382 --> 00:30:00,062
Speaker 4: But a traditional romance novel, to be classified as a

668
00:30:00,142 --> 00:30:03,382
Speaker 4: romance novel has to have one thing h ea.

669
00:30:03,862 --> 00:30:06,982
Speaker 3: It has to have an h ea, Happily ever after? Right, Yeah?

670
00:30:07,622 --> 00:30:10,782
Speaker 4: And I'm obsessed with this information because it makes perfect

671
00:30:10,862 --> 00:30:13,222
Speaker 4: sense when you think about it. I was watching Brene

672
00:30:13,382 --> 00:30:16,502
Speaker 4: Brown this week talking to Fortune mag and she was

673
00:30:16,582 --> 00:30:18,501
Speaker 4: talking about the climate, and I don't know this will

674
00:30:18,502 --> 00:30:20,782
Speaker 4: be news to anyone. She said, people are not okay

675
00:30:21,342 --> 00:30:26,222
Speaker 4: in general. People are emotionally disregulated, distrustful, and disconnected.

676
00:30:26,622 --> 00:30:30,462
Speaker 3: And so what do they want? They want something predictable

677
00:30:30,582 --> 00:30:33,222
Speaker 3: is the wrong word, Something they can count on, something reliable,

678
00:30:33,302 --> 00:30:35,902
Speaker 3: something that they know is going to work out, Murphy,

679
00:30:36,022 --> 00:30:38,102
Speaker 3: Is that part of why you love romance?

680
00:30:38,702 --> 00:30:41,342
Speaker 1: Absolutely? And you can even say predictable because that is

681
00:30:41,462 --> 00:30:43,981
Speaker 1: part of it, because a lot of these books are

682
00:30:44,022 --> 00:30:47,102
Speaker 1: written to a formula where you kind of know that,

683
00:30:47,262 --> 00:30:50,382
Speaker 1: even though you know the main male character and the

684
00:30:50,462 --> 00:30:53,022
Speaker 1: main female character have fallen out in a fighting, you

685
00:30:53,142 --> 00:30:55,102
Speaker 1: know they're going to get back together, and you know

686
00:30:55,302 --> 00:30:57,262
Speaker 1: that they're going to end in a way that's going

687
00:30:57,342 --> 00:30:59,941
Speaker 1: to be very satisfying to you. And I think the

688
00:31:00,062 --> 00:31:03,742
Speaker 1: thing about romance are in my particular special interest romanticy,

689
00:31:03,902 --> 00:31:08,622
Speaker 1: it's about also exploring your own fantasies, whether that be

690
00:31:08,822 --> 00:31:13,542
Speaker 1: romance sexual. There's so many different genres within the genre

691
00:31:14,062 --> 00:31:16,062
Speaker 1: that you can find your niche and explore your own

692
00:31:16,062 --> 00:31:19,262
Speaker 1: sexuality through that. You can, you know, live your life

693
00:31:19,302 --> 00:31:21,941
Speaker 1: in a world where you know you might never do

694
00:31:22,062 --> 00:31:24,622
Speaker 1: things in reality, but you can experience them through the

695
00:31:25,022 --> 00:31:28,181
Speaker 1: experiences of the characters in these books. And I may

696
00:31:28,262 --> 00:31:30,941
Speaker 1: never recreate any of that in my real world unless

697
00:31:31,182 --> 00:31:34,142
Speaker 1: we do find out eventually that men with pointy years

698
00:31:34,142 --> 00:31:37,462
Speaker 1: and magic powers and wings really exist. But it allows

699
00:31:37,542 --> 00:31:41,222
Speaker 1: my imagination to like fuel my libido whilst also giving

700
00:31:41,262 --> 00:31:44,102
Speaker 1: me that escape from the real world and my real

701
00:31:44,182 --> 00:31:46,862
Speaker 1: world because I do, you know, contribute to a news

702
00:31:46,942 --> 00:31:49,822
Speaker 1: podcast and a women's health podcast, like a lot of

703
00:31:49,902 --> 00:31:52,622
Speaker 1: it's not great news. And so for me to sit

704
00:31:52,702 --> 00:31:55,902
Speaker 1: down with a romance book and have that predictable storyline

705
00:31:56,142 --> 00:31:58,902
Speaker 1: come out and yes, happy ending, but that doesn't necessarily

706
00:31:58,942 --> 00:32:01,102
Speaker 1: mean of every book, because there are a series where

707
00:32:01,422 --> 00:32:04,221
Speaker 1: the happy ending doesn't come until five books later. There

708
00:32:04,302 --> 00:32:07,342
Speaker 1: is something about that predictability of a storyline that allows

709
00:32:07,382 --> 00:32:10,542
Speaker 1: my brain to be calm and allow me to understand

710
00:32:10,582 --> 00:32:12,582
Speaker 1: that even though there is tension throughout some of it,

711
00:32:12,942 --> 00:32:15,542
Speaker 1: that tension is going to go away eventually. So like,

712
00:32:15,742 --> 00:32:18,702
Speaker 1: it is such a lovely experience to go through these

713
00:32:19,262 --> 00:32:21,302
Speaker 1: tales with all these different characters and they come out

714
00:32:21,342 --> 00:32:24,182
Speaker 1: the other side. And it has real world implications. There's

715
00:32:24,222 --> 00:32:27,742
Speaker 1: been research into women reading romance books and it having

716
00:32:27,862 --> 00:32:30,542
Speaker 1: positive impacts on the relationships they have with their partners

717
00:32:30,542 --> 00:32:33,582
Speaker 1: in the real world. It's helped women with libido issues.

718
00:32:33,942 --> 00:32:37,342
Speaker 1: It's also an ability for women to take a moment

719
00:32:37,422 --> 00:32:40,342
Speaker 1: for themselves when they're very heavily lifting the mental load.

720
00:32:40,382 --> 00:32:45,782
Speaker 1: You know, it's absolutely predictable and comforting while also being

721
00:32:45,982 --> 00:32:47,902
Speaker 1: sexy as hell, and there is nothing wrong with that.

722
00:32:48,062 --> 00:32:49,782
Speaker 4: I want to ask you, am right because one of

723
00:32:49,822 --> 00:32:51,902
Speaker 4: the things I learned about when I was in my

724
00:32:52,102 --> 00:32:55,582
Speaker 4: master class, my romance writing master class, is that there

725
00:32:55,622 --> 00:32:59,181
Speaker 4: are established tropes, and in this instance, that is an

726
00:32:59,262 --> 00:33:02,981
Speaker 4: insulting word. The tropes like enemies to lovers, friends to lovers,

727
00:33:03,062 --> 00:33:06,822
Speaker 4: fake dating, force, proximity, and those niches people will read

728
00:33:06,862 --> 00:33:09,142
Speaker 4: deeply in. So it might be that you love enemies

729
00:33:09,182 --> 00:33:11,902
Speaker 4: to love us, so you'll read all enemies to lovers books.

730
00:33:12,182 --> 00:33:16,342
Speaker 4: And then equally the settings are also very deep niche.

731
00:33:16,342 --> 00:33:18,982
Speaker 4: She's so you might just like cowboys or cowgirls, or

732
00:33:19,022 --> 00:33:22,661
Speaker 4: you might figure skaters, yeah, exactly, or polyamorous you know,

733
00:33:23,022 --> 00:33:25,742
Speaker 4: country threesomes, and you might They were saying, there's closed

734
00:33:25,782 --> 00:33:28,142
Speaker 4: door sex scenes, which means the bedroom door closes before

735
00:33:28,142 --> 00:33:30,502
Speaker 4: you see the sex, open door, which means the sex

736
00:33:30,661 --> 00:33:34,981
Speaker 4: is explored. There's quite a big conservative romance streak now

737
00:33:34,982 --> 00:33:36,862
Speaker 4: where there's no sex at all. There's just you know,

738
00:33:37,022 --> 00:33:41,542
Speaker 4: sort of polite handholding the stuff and sexual tension. Are

739
00:33:41,622 --> 00:33:43,382
Speaker 4: you a cowboy girl or a billionaire girl?

740
00:33:43,502 --> 00:33:45,181
Speaker 3: Oh, that's such a good question.

741
00:33:45,742 --> 00:33:48,742
Speaker 2: I feel like I've only recently, like probably in the

742
00:33:48,782 --> 00:33:50,862
Speaker 2: last year or so, got into romance, because when I

743
00:33:50,942 --> 00:33:54,181
Speaker 2: started reading romance when I was younger, it was very different.

744
00:33:54,302 --> 00:33:56,342
Speaker 2: Like I think the first romance novels I read when

745
00:33:56,342 --> 00:33:58,582
Speaker 2: I was about like ten or eleven with a Twilight series,

746
00:33:59,222 --> 00:34:01,421
Speaker 2: and like they all were quite like similar, Like it

747
00:34:01,542 --> 00:34:04,982
Speaker 2: was all about like a petite, fragile girl who flew

748
00:34:05,062 --> 00:34:07,701
Speaker 2: away in the wind because she was so small and

749
00:34:07,822 --> 00:34:10,502
Speaker 2: her boyfriend was like tall and muscle and he has

750
00:34:10,542 --> 00:34:13,022
Speaker 2: abandonment issues since his dog died when he was twelve, but.

751
00:34:13,102 --> 00:34:15,622
Speaker 3: Only she could help him figure that out. And I

752
00:34:15,742 --> 00:34:18,022
Speaker 3: was like, this is kind of weird. Kind of doing

753
00:34:18,102 --> 00:34:18,901
Speaker 3: this would be weird.

754
00:34:18,982 --> 00:34:20,942
Speaker 2: And it's only when I got older and my sister

755
00:34:21,582 --> 00:34:23,701
Speaker 2: I have to talk about her because she has a Bookstagram.

756
00:34:24,062 --> 00:34:27,502
Speaker 3: She reads about probably four books a week. She is obsessed.

757
00:34:27,542 --> 00:34:29,941
Speaker 3: I'm so encouraged by how much all the young women

758
00:34:29,982 --> 00:34:30,742
Speaker 3: I now read.

759
00:34:30,661 --> 00:34:33,341
Speaker 2: And it's all romance, and it's like she loves all

760
00:34:33,462 --> 00:34:35,582
Speaker 2: romance books. And I feel like, especially with younger women,

761
00:34:35,942 --> 00:34:38,221
Speaker 2: when they find a romance author they love, they'll read

762
00:34:38,342 --> 00:34:39,782
Speaker 2: everything that author's written.

763
00:34:39,862 --> 00:34:42,542
Speaker 4: And these women are hard working and prolific. Claire Connolly

764
00:34:42,701 --> 00:34:44,582
Speaker 4: was telling me she writes so many books a year.

765
00:34:44,661 --> 00:34:47,701
Speaker 4: She just absolutely works out it like a queen.

766
00:34:47,741 --> 00:34:51,022
Speaker 3: Because the girls are demanding it. Emily Henry like, I've

767
00:34:51,062 --> 00:34:52,901
Speaker 3: probably read all of her books and now.

768
00:34:52,862 --> 00:34:55,022
Speaker 2: She's having a big deal different movies for all of

769
00:34:55,102 --> 00:34:57,382
Speaker 2: her books. It's like and it's similar, like there's like

770
00:34:57,741 --> 00:35:00,301
Speaker 2: so many different tropes and it's like they churn through them,

771
00:35:00,382 --> 00:35:03,062
Speaker 2: like they go through all of them and you know

772
00:35:03,342 --> 00:35:05,622
Speaker 2: exactly what's going to happen and you can't wait to

773
00:35:05,701 --> 00:35:08,302
Speaker 2: find out at the same time, and you're just so invested,

774
00:35:08,302 --> 00:35:09,661
Speaker 2: and it's like what you said, if it's such a

775
00:35:09,741 --> 00:35:13,262
Speaker 2: good escapism. But at the same time, I do realize

776
00:35:13,302 --> 00:35:16,102
Speaker 2: it does have an impact on my dating life, like

777
00:35:16,181 --> 00:35:19,021
Speaker 2: as a single person, Like there have been times where

778
00:35:19,221 --> 00:35:22,862
Speaker 2: I've literally just quit dating just because I'm so invested

779
00:35:22,982 --> 00:35:25,382
Speaker 2: into these books, and I realized I'll.

780
00:35:25,261 --> 00:35:25,821
Speaker 1: Never get that.

781
00:35:27,902 --> 00:35:29,741
Speaker 3: Both romantic and otherwise.

782
00:35:30,181 --> 00:35:32,062
Speaker 4: Do you think the only other thing I want to ask,

783
00:35:32,181 --> 00:35:34,941
Speaker 4: right is generally with culture, I don't like knowing the ending.

784
00:35:35,142 --> 00:35:37,662
Speaker 4: Like if I can pick the ending at the beginning

785
00:35:37,661 --> 00:35:39,741
Speaker 4: of a TV show, say, or a TV series, then

786
00:35:39,781 --> 00:35:41,422
Speaker 4: I often like, I hate that.

787
00:35:41,661 --> 00:35:43,701
Speaker 3: I like the I like a surprise.

788
00:35:43,862 --> 00:35:46,822
Speaker 4: But the thing that interests me about just how popular

789
00:35:46,902 --> 00:35:50,542
Speaker 4: happy endings are is that clearly that isn't true. Is

790
00:35:50,622 --> 00:35:53,861
Speaker 4: it's just like we just don't want any more things

791
00:35:53,942 --> 00:35:55,582
Speaker 4: to worry about, do you know what I mean?

792
00:35:55,822 --> 00:35:58,701
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's nice when I read romance are

793
00:35:58,902 --> 00:36:01,862
Speaker 2: usually able to read them in a few days, because

794
00:36:01,942 --> 00:36:06,022
Speaker 2: even when there's like a tiff or a fight or

795
00:36:06,102 --> 00:36:09,022
Speaker 2: that big like climax moment when nothing's going right, you

796
00:36:09,181 --> 00:36:13,022
Speaker 2: never feel like you're in danger. You always feel safe

797
00:36:13,062 --> 00:36:15,661
Speaker 2: throughout that whole book because you know they're going to

798
00:36:15,701 --> 00:36:16,182
Speaker 2: come around.

799
00:36:16,422 --> 00:36:18,102
Speaker 1: And this is the thing too, is because these are

800
00:36:18,342 --> 00:36:22,181
Speaker 1: tales written about women by women. Yeah, and you can

801
00:36:22,342 --> 00:36:24,941
Speaker 1: absolutely tell them. There's a big section of TikTok which

802
00:36:25,022 --> 00:36:27,941
Speaker 1: compares how men write women as supposed to how women

803
00:36:28,062 --> 00:36:28,542
Speaker 1: right when.

804
00:36:28,462 --> 00:36:30,622
Speaker 3: Supple tender breasts, we don't see any of that now.

805
00:36:31,701 --> 00:36:34,982
Speaker 1: Her breasts were quivering in anticipation, like they're just it's

806
00:36:35,261 --> 00:36:37,502
Speaker 1: being written by women is so different, and you're right

807
00:36:37,622 --> 00:36:40,181
Speaker 1: them in that. It feels like a safe space, like

808
00:36:40,302 --> 00:36:42,502
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what's really happening in the storyline. You

809
00:36:42,622 --> 00:36:45,142
Speaker 1: know that that author is taking care of you and

810
00:36:45,302 --> 00:36:47,342
Speaker 1: will actually deliver to you what you need by the

811
00:36:47,462 --> 00:36:50,701
Speaker 1: end of it. It's really beautifully written women.

812
00:36:51,142 --> 00:36:53,502
Speaker 4: That's what Rachel Johns, who's another romance writer who I

813
00:36:53,542 --> 00:36:54,862
Speaker 4: was talking about that we ken, said, she said, I

814
00:36:54,942 --> 00:36:57,782
Speaker 4: want people to know that it's not all heaving bosoms anymore.

815
00:36:58,822 --> 00:37:02,301
Speaker 4: I'm throbbing members like there's a lot more variety than that.

816
00:37:02,982 --> 00:37:04,902
Speaker 4: But one of the things I did as Claire Connolly,

817
00:37:04,942 --> 00:37:08,062
Speaker 4: because as you said, she specializes in billionaires, and I

818
00:37:08,181 --> 00:37:10,862
Speaker 4: was like, is Elon Musk really done that franchise, because

819
00:37:12,221 --> 00:37:15,261
Speaker 4: you know everybody fell for that fifty shades. Oh and

820
00:37:15,382 --> 00:37:18,022
Speaker 4: he just happens for the US Man Alive as well

821
00:37:18,062 --> 00:37:18,781
Speaker 4: as really hot.

822
00:37:19,022 --> 00:37:20,222
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that book.

823
00:37:20,422 --> 00:37:22,542
Speaker 2: When I was in high school, I remember we just

824
00:37:22,701 --> 00:37:24,741
Speaker 2: had a PDF that would get passed around on a

825
00:37:24,822 --> 00:37:27,862
Speaker 2: USB to all the girls what like.

826
00:37:29,181 --> 00:37:31,861
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was amazing out loud as.

827
00:37:31,982 --> 00:37:33,582
Speaker 4: We're going to put a link in the show notes

828
00:37:33,701 --> 00:37:36,022
Speaker 4: to Claire Connelly, who's the writer, who's masterclass I did.

829
00:37:36,382 --> 00:37:38,701
Speaker 3: I've found it so eye opening. Tell us if you

830
00:37:38,781 --> 00:37:40,102
Speaker 3: love romance, we want to know.

831
00:37:40,342 --> 00:37:42,861
Speaker 1: Can I leave on one last point because last time

832
00:37:42,902 --> 00:37:46,301
Speaker 1: I was on I mentioned some recommendations for the romance book.

833
00:37:46,342 --> 00:37:47,542
Speaker 3: Give us some gateway people.

834
00:37:48,142 --> 00:37:50,862
Speaker 1: People gave me some really great recommendations. I've read the

835
00:37:50,902 --> 00:37:53,661
Speaker 1: plated Prisoner series. Thank you to everyone who recommended that

836
00:37:53,741 --> 00:37:56,661
Speaker 1: to me. That was fabulous. I also want to do

837
00:37:56,781 --> 00:37:59,462
Speaker 1: a shout out to Shield of Sparrows, which is a

838
00:37:59,822 --> 00:38:02,862
Speaker 1: gorgeous book by Devney Perry. I only have the review

839
00:38:02,942 --> 00:38:05,261
Speaker 1: copy of This is not the actual cover of Diabound,

840
00:38:05,302 --> 00:38:07,181
Speaker 1: but this is one of the best books I've read

841
00:38:07,261 --> 00:38:09,741
Speaker 1: in the longest time. Is by Stable Sorenson and just

842
00:38:09,862 --> 00:38:13,022
Speaker 1: a heads up to for Kellie Hart fans. The sequel

843
00:38:13,022 --> 00:38:16,302
Speaker 1: to Quicksilver is out next month and we're all gagginged

844
00:38:16,302 --> 00:38:19,262
Speaker 1: ot these all romanticy category?

845
00:38:19,382 --> 00:38:20,261
Speaker 3: Is that what we call it?

846
00:38:21,062 --> 00:38:24,782
Speaker 1: Yes? So it is like strong female characters with super

847
00:38:24,822 --> 00:38:28,382
Speaker 1: hot boys, and there's often like wolves or magic or

848
00:38:28,462 --> 00:38:31,701
Speaker 1: in this case dragons for Wings of Blood, which is

849
00:38:31,781 --> 00:38:34,221
Speaker 1: what I'm currently reading. And inside of that, and this

850
00:38:34,342 --> 00:38:36,302
Speaker 1: is another thing I think we haven't taken into account

851
00:38:36,622 --> 00:38:39,142
Speaker 1: is all the merch that now comes with romantic books

852
00:38:39,142 --> 00:38:40,861
Speaker 1: because I have a fourth Wing book.

853
00:38:40,982 --> 00:38:45,901
Speaker 3: Mok, I'm so jealous. Calm down, I'm down, my friend.

854
00:38:48,302 --> 00:38:51,782
Speaker 2: After the break, we are sharing our very best recommendations,

855
00:38:51,862 --> 00:38:54,741
Speaker 2: including something Claire I feel like will make you feel

856
00:38:54,822 --> 00:38:56,422
Speaker 2: so much better about your dog.

857
00:38:56,302 --> 00:38:59,102
Speaker 3: Story one unlimited out Loud access.

858
00:38:59,302 --> 00:39:03,341
Speaker 4: We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma

859
00:39:03,382 --> 00:39:04,261
Speaker 4: Mia subscribers.

860
00:39:04,661 --> 00:39:06,502
Speaker 3: Follow the link at the show notes to get us in.

861
00:39:06,502 --> 00:39:09,941
Speaker 4: Your ears five days a week and a huge cute

862
00:39:10,022 --> 00:39:11,781
Speaker 4: to all our current subscribers.

863
00:39:19,741 --> 00:39:23,622
Speaker 2: Vibes ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun.

864
00:39:24,181 --> 00:39:25,661
Speaker 1: This is my best recommendation.

865
00:39:26,942 --> 00:39:30,142
Speaker 2: It is a recommendations time. Holly, do you want to

866
00:39:30,181 --> 00:39:30,422
Speaker 2: take it.

867
00:39:30,462 --> 00:39:31,582
Speaker 3: Away, I do.

868
00:39:32,142 --> 00:39:34,022
Speaker 4: I know that Claire is going to be recommending a

869
00:39:34,062 --> 00:39:36,622
Speaker 4: couple of podcasts, so and I was going to recommend

870
00:39:36,622 --> 00:39:37,942
Speaker 4: one and I'm not now, but I've just got to

871
00:39:37,942 --> 00:39:40,142
Speaker 4: put in one quick mention, okay, for one of my

872
00:39:40,302 --> 00:39:41,982
Speaker 4: gen X queen's Jennifer Aniston.

873
00:39:42,462 --> 00:39:45,341
Speaker 3: She's on Dax Shepherd's Armchair Expert. This week. I saw

874
00:39:45,382 --> 00:39:46,702
Speaker 3: some clips of hers.

875
00:39:46,862 --> 00:39:50,142
Speaker 4: The thing that's very exciting for Anniston stands about this

876
00:39:50,261 --> 00:39:52,461
Speaker 4: is she's never done a long form I've never seen

877
00:39:52,502 --> 00:39:55,261
Speaker 4: her do it interviews. It's just not what she does right.

878
00:39:55,701 --> 00:39:58,701
Speaker 4: And obviously I've listened to it all and obviously it's great.

879
00:39:58,781 --> 00:40:01,341
Speaker 4: She's very warm and funny. There's no like bombshells. It's

880
00:40:01,382 --> 00:40:03,301
Speaker 4: not like she's like so one day Brad Pitt came

881
00:40:03,342 --> 00:40:06,661
Speaker 4: home and it's not like that, damn it, because she's

882
00:40:06,781 --> 00:40:08,341
Speaker 4: kind of in a safe space, I guess with her

883
00:40:08,382 --> 00:40:11,261
Speaker 4: mate Dax and Monica. But anyway, I loved it. I

884
00:40:11,382 --> 00:40:12,942
Speaker 4: just loved hanging out with her for an hour and

885
00:40:13,022 --> 00:40:15,021
Speaker 4: she did. There were a couple of really interesting things.

886
00:40:15,062 --> 00:40:17,582
Speaker 4: She talked about why she'd never adopted a kid. That

887
00:40:17,701 --> 00:40:20,821
Speaker 4: was really interesting. Quick just for any gen X is

888
00:40:20,822 --> 00:40:23,741
Speaker 4: out there who do love Deaniston getting to hear her talk.

889
00:40:23,822 --> 00:40:25,862
Speaker 4: I hope she's gonna feel like she can do that

890
00:40:25,902 --> 00:40:28,702
Speaker 4: a bit more. But my actual one is my best

891
00:40:28,741 --> 00:40:32,221
Speaker 4: friend in the world at the moment. Conceala a particular concealer.

892
00:40:32,741 --> 00:40:36,382
Speaker 4: Jesse's been doing some makeup recos lately and I have

893
00:40:36,741 --> 00:40:40,181
Speaker 4: recommended before a really good affordable concealer by this brand

894
00:40:40,261 --> 00:40:43,102
Speaker 4: called Revolution. I can't find it anywhere, and I don't

895
00:40:43,102 --> 00:40:45,462
Speaker 4: think it's because of my recommendation, but I think it's

896
00:40:45,502 --> 00:40:47,741
Speaker 4: all that. I think it's because Lee Campbell recommended it, right,

897
00:40:48,142 --> 00:40:50,422
Speaker 4: So anytime I walk into a price line, I go

898
00:40:50,502 --> 00:40:51,902
Speaker 4: and look for it, and I can't find it.

899
00:40:51,982 --> 00:40:53,221
Speaker 3: So I've had to replace it.

900
00:40:53,942 --> 00:40:55,542
Speaker 4: As like Lauders know, I don't mind a bit of

901
00:40:55,582 --> 00:40:58,622
Speaker 4: a spenny beauty thing sometimes it's a little treat, but

902
00:40:59,221 --> 00:41:01,062
Speaker 4: I don't like spending lots of money on Consila, and

903
00:41:01,181 --> 00:41:03,741
Speaker 4: my experience tells me that often the more expensive ones

904
00:41:03,781 --> 00:41:04,502
Speaker 4: don't work as well.

905
00:41:04,661 --> 00:41:06,782
Speaker 3: Like I've got to be really careful with Consala.

906
00:41:07,102 --> 00:41:09,181
Speaker 4: Well, I don't have to be careful. That's an overstatement.

907
00:41:09,542 --> 00:41:11,862
Speaker 4: Like a lot of concealers get cakey. The ones with

908
00:41:11,982 --> 00:41:12,822
Speaker 4: really good coverage.

909
00:41:12,862 --> 00:41:13,582
Speaker 3: I get that as well.

910
00:41:13,741 --> 00:41:15,582
Speaker 1: That's why I'm so scared of Kinceala.

911
00:41:16,342 --> 00:41:19,421
Speaker 4: So I always go for the Serumi almost runny ones,

912
00:41:20,022 --> 00:41:21,741
Speaker 4: kind of like foundation. Yeah, but some of them are

913
00:41:21,781 --> 00:41:24,062
Speaker 4: too runny, like Trinny's one is too running. I used

914
00:41:24,062 --> 00:41:25,501
Speaker 4: to use that, but it's two Running's.

915
00:41:25,181 --> 00:41:26,102
Speaker 3: Not good anyway.

916
00:41:26,181 --> 00:41:29,781
Speaker 4: So let me just tell someone because this is not revolutionary,

917
00:41:29,822 --> 00:41:32,782
Speaker 4: but it is an affordable chemist one that is rocking

918
00:41:32,822 --> 00:41:34,742
Speaker 4: my world at the minute, which is just the Laurel

919
00:41:35,181 --> 00:41:37,462
Speaker 4: True Match Radiant Serum Conceala.

920
00:41:37,622 --> 00:41:39,062
Speaker 3: I one hundred percent agree with that.

921
00:41:39,582 --> 00:41:42,582
Speaker 4: It's so good and they have so many shades, and

922
00:41:42,822 --> 00:41:46,142
Speaker 4: right now it's fifteen bucks. It's fifteen bloody bucks in

923
00:41:46,221 --> 00:41:48,582
Speaker 4: price line. I've been really tired lately. I haven't been

924
00:41:48,582 --> 00:41:50,981
Speaker 4: sleeping great. I'm sure it's something hormonal blah blah blah.

925
00:41:51,181 --> 00:41:52,462
Speaker 4: So i wake up in the morning and I'm like,

926
00:41:52,982 --> 00:41:54,861
Speaker 4: oh my god, especially when we're filming, I'm like, oh.

927
00:41:54,862 --> 00:41:55,701
Speaker 3: My god, Cancela.

928
00:41:55,781 --> 00:41:57,781
Speaker 4: And it's just the right amount of runny for me,

929
00:41:57,982 --> 00:42:00,062
Speaker 4: Like it doesn't settle in my lines, but it gives

930
00:42:00,102 --> 00:42:02,942
Speaker 4: good coverage. It's glowy, and it's you can find it,

931
00:42:03,062 --> 00:42:03,661
Speaker 4: and it's cheap.

932
00:42:03,822 --> 00:42:05,821
Speaker 3: It lasts all day. I actually have two.

933
00:42:05,862 --> 00:42:07,622
Speaker 2: I have one for my under eyes because my under

934
00:42:07,661 --> 00:42:09,502
Speaker 2: eyes I need a lighter shade because I quite dark.

935
00:42:09,942 --> 00:42:11,622
Speaker 2: Then I have one that's actually my skin color and

936
00:42:11,701 --> 00:42:14,022
Speaker 2: I use it sometimes as foundation for my blemishes.

937
00:42:14,382 --> 00:42:15,462
Speaker 3: Comes the Trae so.

938
00:42:15,622 --> 00:42:20,342
Speaker 4: Lorel truemach Radian serum Conceala It kicks, Claire.

939
00:42:20,382 --> 00:42:21,502
Speaker 3: What do you have today?

940
00:42:21,862 --> 00:42:24,181
Speaker 1: As Holly mentioned, I've got a couple of podcasts and

941
00:42:24,822 --> 00:42:27,862
Speaker 1: I'm going to be a slightly indulgent one today because

942
00:42:27,942 --> 00:42:30,422
Speaker 1: they're both podcasts that I make. Oh so go on

943
00:42:31,462 --> 00:42:34,701
Speaker 1: give yourself some flowers, Clam Murphy, I am going to

944
00:42:34,902 --> 00:42:38,221
Speaker 1: thank you, Miley. I am currently filling in on True

945
00:42:38,261 --> 00:42:41,821
Speaker 1: Crime Conversations because our regular host Jimmy Bath went off

946
00:42:41,862 --> 00:42:43,942
Speaker 1: and had a baby, so her Maternity Live I've been

947
00:42:43,982 --> 00:42:45,982
Speaker 1: covering for the past few months and we have got

948
00:42:46,142 --> 00:42:48,502
Speaker 1: a couple of really cracky interviews coming up if you

949
00:42:48,661 --> 00:42:53,182
Speaker 1: love true crime. Yesterday we dropped an episode with Harold

950
00:42:53,221 --> 00:42:57,982
Speaker 1: Scheckter and he is the absolute foremost expert in ed

951
00:42:58,102 --> 00:43:00,902
Speaker 1: Gean and if you've been watching Ryan Murphy's Monster have

952
00:43:01,221 --> 00:43:04,901
Speaker 1: the third series on ed Gan. He has a lot

953
00:43:05,062 --> 00:43:05,741
Speaker 1: of things.

954
00:43:05,542 --> 00:43:07,181
Speaker 3: To say, so it's a serial killer guy.

955
00:43:07,781 --> 00:43:09,461
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's not a serial killer.

956
00:43:09,542 --> 00:43:12,142
Speaker 3: No, No, your guest isn't. But the monster's Ed Gean. No,

957
00:43:12,622 --> 00:43:13,502
Speaker 3: ed Dean is awesome.

958
00:43:13,661 --> 00:43:16,781
Speaker 1: He was the largs serial killer. So that is part

959
00:43:16,822 --> 00:43:21,022
Speaker 1: of the problem that Harold Scheckter has with Ryan Murphy's

960
00:43:21,022 --> 00:43:23,741
Speaker 1: depiction of Ed Green, because he claims quite a high

961
00:43:23,741 --> 00:43:27,821
Speaker 1: percentage of that story is untrue, which is wild. The

962
00:43:27,982 --> 00:43:30,181
Speaker 1: other one coming up next week is one that I

963
00:43:30,342 --> 00:43:33,781
Speaker 1: feel like I've prepared my entire life to do. I'm

964
00:43:33,822 --> 00:43:35,302
Speaker 1: sitting down with Kathleen Folbick.

965
00:43:35,502 --> 00:43:37,661
Speaker 3: Oh my god, wow, I would love to hear that.

966
00:43:37,942 --> 00:43:40,102
Speaker 1: I'm so honored that she has agreed to come on

967
00:43:40,142 --> 00:43:42,661
Speaker 1: through Crime Conversations to talk about her experience. If you're

968
00:43:42,701 --> 00:43:46,462
Speaker 1: unaware of Kathleen's story, she lost four children over the

969
00:43:46,741 --> 00:43:49,982
Speaker 1: early to late nineties, and she was jailed because she

970
00:43:50,142 --> 00:43:53,901
Speaker 1: was found guilty of their murder. And it turns out

971
00:43:54,142 --> 00:43:58,341
Speaker 1: that there was a DNA issue that could have meant

972
00:43:58,902 --> 00:44:01,462
Speaker 1: there was a very reasonable explanation for the deaths of

973
00:44:01,542 --> 00:44:04,542
Speaker 1: those four babies. So she is now free. She's going

974
00:44:04,582 --> 00:44:06,301
Speaker 1: to be joining me with her friend Tracy, who's been

975
00:44:06,342 --> 00:44:10,022
Speaker 1: literally at her side this entire time, and so I'm excited.

976
00:44:10,062 --> 00:44:12,062
Speaker 1: That's coming next week, so two episodes.

977
00:44:12,221 --> 00:44:12,502
Speaker 3: Edgaine.

978
00:44:12,502 --> 00:44:15,421
Speaker 1: If you're watching Monsters that's already live, go check it out.

979
00:44:15,781 --> 00:44:19,502
Speaker 1: And next week. Kathleen Folbig on True Crime Conversations. Thank you.

980
00:44:19,982 --> 00:44:22,622
Speaker 1: That is me just advertising myself.

981
00:44:22,862 --> 00:44:26,181
Speaker 3: How exciting. Okay, my recommendation.

982
00:44:26,302 --> 00:44:28,741
Speaker 2: I'm actually so excited to have this recommendation because it

983
00:44:28,822 --> 00:44:31,462
Speaker 2: lines up perfectly with your dog dilemma.

984
00:44:32,022 --> 00:44:33,822
Speaker 3: Okay. It is a substack post.

985
00:44:33,902 --> 00:44:38,182
Speaker 2: It's written by an alias named Father Karen or Father Kareen.

986
00:44:38,542 --> 00:44:42,301
Speaker 2: She's an anonymous writer and this post is titled an

987
00:44:42,342 --> 00:44:45,062
Speaker 2: Open Letter to My dog, who, if I'm being honest,

988
00:44:45,221 --> 00:44:50,342
Speaker 2: low key kind of sucks. It is one of the

989
00:44:50,542 --> 00:44:54,062
Speaker 2: funniest things I've read in a really, really long time,

990
00:44:54,261 --> 00:44:56,701
Speaker 2: and as writers, you know, it's really hard to be

991
00:44:56,822 --> 00:45:00,382
Speaker 2: funny in writing funny. I was reading this while I

992
00:45:00,502 --> 00:45:02,982
Speaker 2: was walking to work and I was cackling on the

993
00:45:03,102 --> 00:45:04,021
Speaker 2: sidewalk the city.

994
00:45:04,062 --> 00:45:06,782
Speaker 3: People thought I was insane. It is so so funny.

995
00:45:06,822 --> 00:45:09,661
Speaker 2: It's basically, she talks about being this young girl and

996
00:45:09,781 --> 00:45:11,542
Speaker 2: she adopts a dog. She lives in New York City.

997
00:45:11,582 --> 00:45:14,382
Speaker 2: She adopts a dog. It has all of this past

998
00:45:14,462 --> 00:45:16,862
Speaker 2: trauma and it's actually a really really hard dog to

999
00:45:16,902 --> 00:45:19,862
Speaker 2: look after. And the letter is to her dog and

1000
00:45:19,982 --> 00:45:22,421
Speaker 2: saying how much she loves her dog deeply, but also

1001
00:45:22,502 --> 00:45:24,701
Speaker 2: going into all of these things that the dog does

1002
00:45:24,822 --> 00:45:27,062
Speaker 2: in its life. I want to read this little snippet out.

1003
00:45:27,142 --> 00:45:30,862
Speaker 2: It says, one day, while paying my dog walking bill online,

1004
00:45:30,982 --> 00:45:33,862
Speaker 2: I saw a note section on your profile. I clicked

1005
00:45:33,902 --> 00:45:37,181
Speaker 2: on it and it said be careful, we'll confront large men,

1006
00:45:37,502 --> 00:45:39,942
Speaker 2: which is how I found out you were a radical feminist.

1007
00:45:40,741 --> 00:45:46,102
Speaker 3: It is so exiity she have a radical feminist. Oh

1008
00:45:46,181 --> 00:45:46,542
Speaker 3: my god.

1009
00:45:46,701 --> 00:45:49,502
Speaker 2: I think you'd really enjoy it. It's really really funny.

1010
00:45:49,542 --> 00:45:51,422
Speaker 2: We'll put a link to it in our show notes.

1011
00:45:51,781 --> 00:45:54,421
Speaker 1: I love that it reminds me of rescue shelters who

1012
00:45:54,942 --> 00:45:58,221
Speaker 1: like truthfully advertise some of the dogs and they'll be like,

1013
00:45:58,741 --> 00:46:01,422
Speaker 1: this guy's just an asshole. He will chew everything you

1014
00:46:01,542 --> 00:46:04,661
Speaker 1: own and we'll probably run away, but like, please adopt him.

1015
00:46:05,502 --> 00:46:06,181
Speaker 1: That's so fun.

1016
00:46:06,382 --> 00:46:09,102
Speaker 4: Hold bless a massive thank you out loud As for

1017
00:46:09,181 --> 00:46:12,102
Speaker 4: being with us through our Friday show and all week,

1018
00:46:12,181 --> 00:46:14,342
Speaker 4: and of course to you Clemurphy who've been filling in

1019
00:46:14,462 --> 00:46:16,982
Speaker 4: for Jesse Stevens all week and doing a bloody stellar job.

1020
00:46:17,102 --> 00:46:19,301
Speaker 1: Thank you thank you for having me. It's always fun

1021
00:46:19,342 --> 00:46:21,382
Speaker 1: to step in and have a weed chat with you guys.

1022
00:46:22,022 --> 00:46:25,382
Speaker 3: Friends, do not forget. You can also watch us on YouTube.

1023
00:46:25,502 --> 00:46:27,142
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you can see clip pull out all of

1024
00:46:27,181 --> 00:46:29,982
Speaker 4: the books that she had. I definitely want to see

1025
00:46:30,062 --> 00:46:32,142
Speaker 4: that out loud. As one more thing, I have a

1026
00:46:32,181 --> 00:46:34,862
Speaker 4: big question for you. Do you hold a grudge? And

1027
00:46:35,221 --> 00:46:37,261
Speaker 4: if you do, when should you let it go? We

1028
00:46:37,382 --> 00:46:41,181
Speaker 4: had a conversation on the subscriber episode yesterday about arguably

1029
00:46:41,342 --> 00:46:44,941
Speaker 4: the Queen of grudges, Taylor Swift, and discovering that one

1030
00:46:44,982 --> 00:46:47,501
Speaker 4: of us loves to hold a grudge while another thinks

1031
00:46:47,542 --> 00:46:50,582
Speaker 4: that holding one can actually teach us something. We're going

1032
00:46:50,622 --> 00:46:52,142
Speaker 4: to pop a link in the show notes so you

1033
00:46:52,462 --> 00:46:55,942
Speaker 4: can listen. Mon's Amelia and Stacey are back in your

1034
00:46:55,982 --> 00:46:59,142
Speaker 4: ears tomorrow with a new episode of Parenting Out Loud.

1035
00:46:59,502 --> 00:47:02,341
Speaker 4: The guy who created Adolescents has an idea for how

1036
00:47:02,462 --> 00:47:04,942
Speaker 4: dads can connect to their sons, but one of the

1037
00:47:05,062 --> 00:47:08,022
Speaker 4: hosts is not a fan. They also discuss a kids

1038
00:47:08,102 --> 00:47:10,421
Speaker 4: party photo that has everyone up in arms and whether

1039
00:47:10,502 --> 00:47:13,142
Speaker 4: we should just say no to some traditions.

1040
00:47:13,462 --> 00:47:14,902
Speaker 3: Did someone say elf.

1041
00:47:15,462 --> 00:47:18,261
Speaker 4: Find it in its own feed by searching Parenting out

1042
00:47:18,342 --> 00:47:20,822
Speaker 4: loud and tap follow so you don't miss an episode.

1043
00:47:21,102 --> 00:47:23,142
Speaker 4: A link, as always, will be in the show notes.

1044
00:47:23,741 --> 00:47:25,501
Speaker 4: Claire and m thank our team.

1045
00:47:25,982 --> 00:47:28,461
Speaker 2: A big thank you to our full team, our group

1046
00:47:28,542 --> 00:47:32,302
Speaker 2: executive producer Rute Divine and our executive producer Sasha Tanic.

1047
00:47:32,582 --> 00:47:35,221
Speaker 1: Our senior audio producer is the gorgeous Lea Porges, who

1048
00:47:35,261 --> 00:47:37,381
Speaker 1: does wear a good power suit. You should check her out.

1049
00:47:37,542 --> 00:47:40,821
Speaker 1: Video producer Josh Green, and our junior content producers are

1050
00:47:40,862 --> 00:47:43,661
Speaker 1: Coco and Tessa. Bye Bye bye.

1051
00:47:44,741 --> 00:47:47,222
Speaker 3: Shout out to any MoMA mia subscribers listening.

1052
00:47:47,342 --> 00:47:49,701
Speaker 4: If you love the show and you want to support us,

1053
00:47:50,022 --> 00:47:52,661
Speaker 4: subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to

1054
00:47:52,781 --> 00:47:52,982
Speaker 4: do it.

1055
00:47:53,261 --> 00:47:55,102
Speaker 3: There's a link in the episode description.