Speaker 1: You almost have to get to a place of being
Speaker 1: able to accept that. If I decide that I want
Speaker 1: to stay, I have to be prepared for the potential that.
Speaker 2: I could get hurt like that.
Speaker 1: Again, it may never happen and great, but I have
Speaker 1: to be prepared for that because there's no guarantees in life,
Speaker 1: and I also.
Speaker 2: Have to trust that I will be okay.
Speaker 1: I might be devastated, I might be hurt, but that
Speaker 1: I will be able to continue on in life.
Speaker 3: Welcome to you, but are you happy? I'm a shiny
Speaker 3: Dante question. Have you ever been betrayed before? Had your
Speaker 3: trust broken? Who are we kidding? Most of us have right,
Speaker 3: But the hard part is what comes next, trying to
Speaker 3: rebuild trust, not just with the person who broke it,
Speaker 3: but in yourself too, that gut feeling that tells you
Speaker 3: whether someone is lying, whether you can actually trust them
Speaker 3: or not. Today where unpacking the psychology of trust with
Speaker 3: Sarah Bays. She's a Sydney based psychotherapist, host of Mum
Speaker 3: and MEA's relationship podcast This Is Why We Fight and
Speaker 3: founder of Motivated Minds, a counseling practice focused on relationships.
Speaker 3: We spoke to her for our episode on situation ships too,
Speaker 3: So links her in the show notes Sarah works with
Speaker 3: so many people navigating trust after betrayal, whether that's infidelity,
Speaker 3: family secrets, or having the rug pulled out from under them,
Speaker 3: and what she helps them do is rebuild that confidence
Speaker 3: to trust again, to let people in again, and not
Speaker 3: shut down new connections just because trust has been broken
Speaker 3: in the past. So joined Sarah and I in the
Speaker 3: buta you happy studio for this incredible conversation.
Speaker 2: Welcome back, Sarah.
Speaker 3: I'm excited to talk about trust with you.
Speaker 2: Yes, me too.
Speaker 1: Look, I now trust you a lot after our first chat,
Speaker 1: so I trust that this will go fine.
Speaker 2: But no, I yeah, this is a big one. It's
Speaker 2: a big one. It is a big one.
Speaker 3: And you know, for someone listening now who's been deeply
Speaker 3: betrayed or hurt before, what would you want to say
Speaker 3: to them right now?
Speaker 2: Oh, it's so tough, you know.
Speaker 1: I think being betrayed or they having that, it's so tough.
Speaker 1: I think having that feeling of being betrayed by someone
Speaker 1: you really care for, and particularly when it's that blindsided feeling,
Speaker 1: it is like weld chattering often and it can feel
Speaker 1: like how is everything going to come back into place again.
Speaker 1: It's sort of like your world can break into different
Speaker 1: pieces and it's like I don't understand how it's going
Speaker 1: to be back how it was now. And I think
Speaker 1: the biggest advice from my end is that your world
Speaker 1: will come back together. It might look the same, it
Speaker 1: might look slightly different, or it might look completely different,
Speaker 1: but it will come back together. But it's like too
Speaker 1: soon now for you to be able to try and
Speaker 1: put it back together. It's just kind of like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is going to hurt and be hard, but it
Speaker 1: is going to come back together in some way.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And it's kind of finding that balance between authentically meeting
Speaker 3: where you're at, but also to bring some hope into
Speaker 3: it because it does feel a bit hopeless when you're
Speaker 3: in it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I wonder whether there's this sort of
Speaker 1: like rush to put the.
Speaker 2: Pieces back together.
Speaker 1: I just want to kind of whether it's moved forward
Speaker 1: or move away. But it's like sitting in that place
Speaker 1: where it's just oh, is hard and this is where
Speaker 1: most people want to be moving.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 3: It's interesting you say that because, like, I, is there
Speaker 3: an impact on not sitting in it, like not allowing
Speaker 3: ourselves to sit in the hurt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1: This is where people will make decisions that aren't really
Speaker 1: in their best interests or attuned with what they actually need.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, let's say it might lead to forgiving someone too quickly,
Speaker 1: not holding somebody accountable, or not really thinking about the
Speaker 1: long term consequences of deciding that this doesn't really matter
Speaker 1: and maybe minimizing it. Or it can lead to the
Speaker 1: other side of things where people just cut off that's it,
Speaker 1: end a relationship or cut somebody out of their lives,
Speaker 1: rather than actually sit with and deal with it where
Speaker 1: it may not have to lead to a cutoff.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I think what I'm curious
Speaker 3: about is like, what kinds of hurts do you see
Speaker 3: most often messing with people's ability to trust again?
Speaker 2: And how does that show up in their day to day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it would be things. The obvious one is
Speaker 1: the relationships. You know, a betrayal of some kind in
Speaker 1: the relationship, like a romantic one where there's either a
Speaker 1: cheating something along those lines, or it can be one
Speaker 1: where I would say, let's say with family members or
Speaker 1: close friends, where there's been a lie, like a really
Speaker 1: big lie or withholding of infant nation that feels pertinent
Speaker 1: to who I am as a person, and now I
Speaker 1: have to refigure everything out and what I think about
Speaker 1: myself and the world. And you know, so sometimes where
Speaker 1: there's like a family member who has decided not to
Speaker 1: tell you a certain something about either yourself or them
Speaker 1: or the family, and you find that out down the
Speaker 1: track and it's like world chattering, or you know, it
Speaker 1: could be a really close friend that has held something
Speaker 1: from you or or told you something that made you
Speaker 1: believe things or act a certain way, and it actually
Speaker 1: isn't the reality at all. So it's kind of like
Speaker 1: my whole reality gets shifted. They're the ones that I think.
Speaker 2: People struggle with the most to do that repair and
Speaker 2: rebuild a trust.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, And it's interesting because I feel like trust,
Speaker 3: there's so much to that word, especially when it comes
Speaker 3: to relating with people.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So something that I'm curious about is how do we
Speaker 3: learn to build trust from a young age because those
Speaker 3: years would be really informative to how we build trust
Speaker 3: later on in life. Absolutely the blueprint for everything it's
Speaker 3: created in those is life back in your childhood or
Speaker 3: some family trauma, Like it always comes back to that.
Speaker 2: I know it's so cliche and annoying, but it is.
Speaker 1: It's true, It's grounded in some truths there, absolutely, so
Speaker 1: we do. It's back back to the attachment stuff again.
Speaker 1: So our primary attachment the first relationship we ever build.
Speaker 1: So whoever our primary caregiver is, they are the ones
Speaker 1: that teach us first about trust. And it can be
Speaker 1: as early back as I'm a baby, I am crying?
Speaker 1: Will I trust? Do I know that if I'm crying
Speaker 1: that someone will come to me? Do I know that
Speaker 1: there is a consistent supply of food and nurture and
Speaker 1: warmth and things like that? So it really comes from
Speaker 1: such a biological level at first, and where the nervous
Speaker 1: system really, you know, sort of guides us with that.
Speaker 1: Where how distressed do I get if I'm left to
Speaker 1: lone as a baby, or how you know what happens
Speaker 1: to me if I'm hungry? Will I have Is it
Speaker 1: intermittent when I get food or are there long stretches
Speaker 1: where I don't know? So there's this actual like trust
Speaker 1: about our survival that we I guess subconsciously build with
Speaker 1: our caregiver. So depending on our experiences in that part
Speaker 1: of our life. That will be the first sort of
Speaker 1: foundation of that blueprint of whether the world is a
Speaker 1: good place, a scary place, a place where you know,
Speaker 1: we aren't sure it can be good, sometimes bad, sometimes
Speaker 1: you know, is it inconsistent? That's the beginning, and then
Speaker 1: of course, you know, adding layers onto that as we
Speaker 1: develop and start to understand what lies are, what is lying,
Speaker 1: what happens when we get tricked for the first time.
Speaker 2: You know, it's like probably our sibling might have played
Speaker 2: a prank on us or something like that.
Speaker 1: But you know where we get tricked or we thought
Speaker 1: something was going to happen and it didn't happen that way,
Speaker 1: and so we start to, I guess, have these little
Speaker 1: experiences that tell us about that you don't always know
Speaker 1: that things are what they are, And depending on what
Speaker 1: type of support system and coping strategies and narrative that
Speaker 1: the family has around that stuff will really change how
Speaker 1: you internalize those experiences, because everybody would get tricked or
Speaker 1: would get lied to, or you know, feel someone was
Speaker 1: betraying them, like a friend, you know, my best friend
Speaker 1: and then now she's her best friend tomorrow. You know,
Speaker 1: like there's all these like childhood experiences that are normal
Speaker 1: for us to go through. And that doesn't mean you're
Speaker 1: going to be a guarded person forever. If you've got
Speaker 1: a family that could talk to you about those things
Speaker 1: and help you process and understand what's going on there,
Speaker 1: and that you know there are many reasons as to
Speaker 1: why these things can happen, and that we do have
Speaker 1: to question and use our gut instinct and you know,
Speaker 1: check in with our tummy and what does it feel
Speaker 1: like I can does that feel right or not right?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: So all these skills that we either got taught or
Speaker 1: didn't get taught as children.
Speaker 2: Role modeling is a big one. Do we see our
Speaker 2: parents lying or you know, betraying, you know.
Speaker 1: Is there whether there's infidelity and family systems and things
Speaker 1: like that. So there's so many things that start creating
Speaker 1: that landscape of what trust is for us.
Speaker 3: I can imagine some parents that are tuning in being like,
Speaker 3: oh no, should I not.
Speaker 2: Be lying to my child at the same.
Speaker 1: Day, please lie to your children. Let me put you
Speaker 1: out there, no children, it's fine to lie to your
Speaker 1: kids or thoughtfully lying to our children. If we thoughtfully
Speaker 1: lie to our children, I mean it can be necessary
Speaker 1: at times. But I do think kids actually are way
Speaker 1: more resilient than you think, and telling kids the truth
Speaker 1: about big things in a child appropriate way, but they
Speaker 1: sense when you're lying. That's the thing, you know. They
Speaker 1: don't have those override things that we've got as an
Speaker 1: adult that override our nervous system and our gut and
Speaker 1: tell us no, no, that's not what's happening. Kids don't
Speaker 1: have that, So if you lie to them, they usually know,
Speaker 1: particularly if it's something that you feel uncomfortable about. So
Speaker 1: it's more around if I lie to my kids, is
Speaker 1: it to protect them? Do they actually need protecting from that?
Speaker 1: Or is it to protect me? Maybe I feel uncomfortable
Speaker 1: talking about that, you know, So if it's more about you,
Speaker 1: then I would wonder whether it's worth lying. But no,
Speaker 1: it's more so the narrative around it. You know that
Speaker 1: sometimes people lie, and there's different reasons why people lie.
Speaker 1: So it's even introducing it as a sort of concept
Speaker 1: to young kids and being able to explore that non judgmentally,
Speaker 1: but also you know, giving them skills and tools of
Speaker 1: like what happens when we get lied to and when
Speaker 1: we might feel hurt, how do we manage that? And
Speaker 1: what would we.
Speaker 2: Do next time with that person?
Speaker 1: Would we maybe wait a little bit longer before we
Speaker 1: agree to go and play with them, or would we
Speaker 1: want to see that they're now acting nicely before we
Speaker 1: hang out with them again. So it's just like you
Speaker 1: can even teach these little skills from the beginning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's always a lesson to everything. Yeah, Like when
Speaker 3: we do say trust, like, are we talking about believing
Speaker 3: someone won't hurt us or believing that we can handle
Speaker 3: it if they do.
Speaker 1: That's a good one because there's yeah, trust in others
Speaker 1: and trust in ourselves, and I think it kind of overlaps.
Speaker 1: When people really struggle to rebuild trust, it's often partially
Speaker 1: because they don't trust themselves. If it's a thoughtful choice
Speaker 1: to no longer trust that person, that's a different story.
Speaker 1: That's nothing to do with your own self trust. But
Speaker 1: when people have decided that they want to rebuild trust
Speaker 1: and they want to work on it, but they start
Speaker 1: doing things that get in the way of that, that
Speaker 1: usually indicates to me that they don't trust themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, are you able to share more about that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's one I see a lot with couples,
Speaker 1: particularly when there's been a big betrayal. It could be,
Speaker 1: you know, your partner has actually been using drugs for
Speaker 1: the last few years and maybe spent most of your
Speaker 1: savings that you had as a couple. Or it could
Speaker 1: be that your partner has been cheating or had an
Speaker 1: affair or something like that. I see with a partner
Speaker 1: who's been betrayed, they can get into a place where
Speaker 1: they decided they want to stay. They've decided they don't
Speaker 1: want to leave the relationship. They're coming to couples therapy,
Speaker 1: but they are not giving their partner the chance to
Speaker 1: actually repair the trust because to do that, you have
Speaker 1: to give them the opportunity. So they almost have to
Speaker 1: be given enough leeway to hurt you again, yeah, or
Speaker 1: to show you that they've learned something and that they
Speaker 1: really are sorry and that they are making behavior change.
Speaker 1: And people can be very very hesitant to let their
Speaker 1: partner have enough rope to either go whichever way they're
Speaker 1: going to go with it, so they almost like keep
Speaker 1: them on this really tight leash. There's this almost punitive
Speaker 1: but you know, and it comes from hurt and anger
Speaker 1: and all of that, but there's this almost like I'm
Speaker 1: not letting them off the hook, I'm not letting them
Speaker 1: off the hook, and it's like, Okay, well, then we're
Speaker 1: going to stay in that place, you know, because if
Speaker 1: you don't know if you can handle being hurt like
Speaker 1: that again, then trying to repair is not going to
Speaker 1: go anywhere. You almost have to get to a place
Speaker 1: of being able to accept that if I decide that
Speaker 1: I want to stay, I have to be prepared for
Speaker 1: the potential that I could get hurt like that again.
Speaker 1: It may never happen, and great, but I have to
Speaker 1: be prepared for that because there's no guarantees in life,
Speaker 1: and I also have to trust that I will be okay,
Speaker 1: might be devastated, I might be hurt, but that I
Speaker 1: will be able to continue on in life.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So they're those things that I see people really get
Speaker 1: stuck in, these kind of like painful places where yes
Speaker 1: they're not the one that's done the betrayal, but they're
Speaker 1: now keeping the whole dynamic stuck because of their fear.
Speaker 3: It's kind of like they kind of have to give
Speaker 3: up something, which sucks in a way because they're the
Speaker 3: ones that got deeply hurt.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's like I already got hurt, Why am
Speaker 1: I having to do Like why am I having to
Speaker 1: do the scary thing now?
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3: And it's interesting too because like one of the words
Speaker 3: that I heard from you, like you're talking about repair,
Speaker 3: you know, and that's a very important part of healing. Yeah,
Speaker 3: But also there was another word that you use before
Speaker 3: around forgiveness, and you know, forgiveness, you know, I really
Speaker 3: see that as a really important part of healing.
Speaker 2: But I'm also curious to know, like, do we have
Speaker 2: to forgive everyone?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Absolutely not. There you go, No, don't forgive anyone, no, no.
Speaker 1: Look, Forgiveness is an interesting one because there's a lot
Speaker 1: of different schools of thought on this. And for some people,
Speaker 1: forgiveness is about forgiving the other, and for some people
Speaker 1: forgiveness is actually for themselves, as in freeing myself from hatred, anger, pain,
Speaker 1: you know, fear of a certain person or situation. So
Speaker 1: it depends on what angle you're looking at it. But
Speaker 1: I do believe there are things in life that you
Speaker 1: don't need to forgive, as in allow that person to
Speaker 1: continue to be in your space, continue to be in
Speaker 1: a relationship with them, continue to have contact. I think
Speaker 1: it's completely acceptable to decide I don't wish to be
Speaker 1: in this relationship or I don't want that person in
Speaker 1: my life. I can still also forgive though, Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I can decide that I'm not holding all my hatred
Speaker 1: and anger for that person anymore, but they also are
Speaker 1: no longer in my space, yes, so yeah? Or if
Speaker 1: I do want to forgive, what's behind my forgiveness? Is
Speaker 1: it because I don't like this uncomfortable feeling? Is it
Speaker 1: that I just want everything to be okay again? Or
Speaker 1: do I actually value and care for this relationship enough
Speaker 1: that I and I and that there's enough in it
Speaker 1: that I see the other person is willing and actively
Speaker 1: doing the things they need to to change. That tells me, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll forgive here.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I find forgiveness is such an interesting word because I
Speaker 3: think sometimes but when they think of forgiveness, it's like, oh, okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: I when I if I was to forgive someone, then
Speaker 3: I'm letting them off the hook exactly. And I think
Speaker 3: that I actually believe it's not bad in a way.
Speaker 3: It's like, actually, you know, I forgive, but I don't forget. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And that's like a side of your own self respect
Speaker 3: and what you're worth as well. So it's good to
Speaker 3: kind of bring a light to the nuances in forgiveness
Speaker 3: because it can be misinterpreted in a way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that forgiveness equally condoning is a big misconception
Speaker 1: where but if I forgive them, am I telling them
Speaker 1: that that's okay and that they could do it again
Speaker 1: or that it wasn't that bad or that I'll stay
Speaker 1: if they do it again. And that's very much conflating
Speaker 1: two very different things.
Speaker 2: You know, I can choose to move.
Speaker 1: On from something without agreeing that that was an okay
Speaker 1: thing to have done.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3: And when it does come to forgiveness, like what does
Speaker 3: it actually look like to forgive someone? Do they need
Speaker 3: to have that confrontation or.
Speaker 2: Like just be like, hey, look, I forgive you, or
Speaker 2: is that kind of like a in a self reflection process.
Speaker 1: It's definitely more internal, which then indicates what type of
Speaker 1: conversations you're then going to have. So it informs rather
Speaker 1: so it informs the type of conversations that you're going
Speaker 1: to have with that person after you've done your own
Speaker 1: internal kind of you know, little brains trust meeting around it,
Speaker 1: and you know, the heart and the brain have to
Speaker 1: get together a little bit, and the nervous system plays
Speaker 1: a big part as well well, because I think that
Speaker 1: this is what gets when the nervous system has been
Speaker 1: particularly shocked. It can get in the way of being
Speaker 1: able to think clearly about what I want to do here.
Speaker 1: So it does require some time actually before you can
Speaker 1: get into that real clear space of what would forgiveness
Speaker 1: mean to me? Does this apply here? Is this a
Speaker 1: situation where I feel like I can forgive? Sometimes people
Speaker 1: try to forgive and I don't think that they're able to,
Speaker 1: And that's, you know, that's the reality is that sometimes
Speaker 1: we are not able to forgive something. And if we
Speaker 1: keep on staying in that relationship but not forgiving, it
Speaker 1: can become quite It can become abusive in bad situations
Speaker 1: because we're sort of, you know, we're not treating someone
Speaker 1: with respect anymore. When you know, if I've lost complete
Speaker 1: respect for you, I feel really hurt and angry by you,
Speaker 1: and I just can't get over it. Staying in relationship
Speaker 1: with you would not be nice, not nice for me,
Speaker 1: but also not nice for you, Like walking on eggshells
Speaker 1: in a way you don't know, Yeah, Like I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be showing up as the person I want to show
Speaker 1: up in that relationship, and I'm sure the other person
Speaker 1: is really not going to be enjoying how I'm treating
Speaker 1: them if I'm still feeling that way about them.
Speaker 2: So sometimes even knowing when to kind of call it.
Speaker 1: Yeah is important rather than it's like sort of beating
Speaker 1: a dead horse at times.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And it's interesting because it kind of reminds me of
Speaker 3: the episode that we did before on Situationships, and you
Speaker 3: spoke about getting really clear on kind of like the
Speaker 3: goal or the expectation, And in a way, I feel
Speaker 3: like you kind of have to get clear on what
Speaker 3: is the outcome from this if I lean into forgiveness, you.
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, yeah, and not knowing what that looks like
Speaker 1: can be scary. So it's like, you know, if I
Speaker 1: forgive this person, what will be different? Will we just
Speaker 1: go back to how things were? And I think there's
Speaker 1: such a bigger conversation around the forgiveness piece because I
Speaker 1: can forgive, but that doesn't mean that there are now
Speaker 1: not different things happening in this relationship in order to
Speaker 1: repair And maybe it's highlighted. Maybe what happened highlighted some
Speaker 1: dynamics that weren't working well that are going to need
Speaker 1: to be different for us to continue and move forward
Speaker 1: with this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3: There was something that you mentioned before around like the
Speaker 3: way in which we can potentially rush past the forgiveness
Speaker 3: or just the way we process hurt. And it's interesting
Speaker 3: because like some people rush to forgive and others avoid
Speaker 3: it forever. Yeah, so what's the danger in literally kind
Speaker 3: of throwing glitter on a pile of shit?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, look at it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I can think of a few couples that I, yeah,
Speaker 1: have come in and it's like, yep, so my partner cheated.
Speaker 1: But you know, we're working through it and it's going
Speaker 1: really well, and da da da. And this is like
Speaker 1: two weeks after and I'm going, wow, very fresh. Oh okay,
Speaker 1: Like that's interesting in itself. You know what's going on here,
Speaker 1: there's this real push for everything being fine. Everything it's okay,
Speaker 1: you know, And I think that is again, that's protective mechanism.
Speaker 1: It protects me to tell myself and minimize this, and
Speaker 1: that it tell myself that it doesn't really hurt that bad,
Speaker 1: or it wasn't as bad as it was, or that
Speaker 1: you know, it'll be different. So this kind of like
Speaker 1: semi denial or sort of sweeping of things can mean
Speaker 1: that we set ourselves up to be hurt again because
Speaker 1: we don't actually do the proper work to change anything
Speaker 1: or get to the root of the problem. Because when
Speaker 1: there's been a betrayal, even with a friendship or in
Speaker 1: a family relationship, we've got to get to the core reason.
Speaker 1: And it's not always something really basic and simple, but
Speaker 1: it's you. I mean, people usually lie or do things
Speaker 1: based on fear or based on unhappiness about something or
Speaker 1: trying to protect something. So we need to drill down
Speaker 1: to what was the reason the betrayal happened and what
Speaker 1: was if not always, but if there was some type
Speaker 1: of contribution from me in the dynamic that also sort
Speaker 1: of helped create the environment in which the betrayal then happened.
Speaker 1: Looking at my part in it. Sometimes you don't have
Speaker 1: a part in it, and that's fine in different situations,
Speaker 1: but often in couples there will be some sort of
Speaker 1: co creation. People can get a bit funny about hearing that,
Speaker 1: what do you mean I got cheated on? How is
Speaker 1: that my fault? Yeah, not your fault. Their behavior is
Speaker 1: on them to be accountable for. But we can look
Speaker 1: at was I really present in the relationship?
Speaker 2: You know, how did I show up for my partner?
Speaker 1: Was there ever any kind of like red flag things
Speaker 1: that I just turned a blind eye to? You know,
Speaker 1: was I not really wanting to see certain things? And
Speaker 1: that's not always the case, but sometimes there is a
Speaker 1: part that people, you know, through therapy, you can see
Speaker 1: the person who's been betrayed to get to a point
Speaker 1: where they're like, Okay, I can see this this and
Speaker 1: this is where I might have contributed. It's still not okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I can see what I've done here that might
Speaker 1: have helped create that environment where that could happen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I love that because I know you mentioned
Speaker 3: this last time when we were talking about situation ships.
Speaker 3: But it's like we can hold both, like both is true,
Speaker 3: being like this is the shit that happened. Yeah, we're
Speaker 3: not denying that, and like this is the part that
Speaker 3: I can play. And I think there's when we talk
Speaker 3: about responsibility and taking responsibility, it can be this really
Speaker 3: heavy word, but in a way it's actually bringing more
Speaker 3: self compassion to ourselves, Like we get to own our
Speaker 3: bit in a way, even though it's a really shitty situation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do find it's that standard brain thing
Speaker 1: where we want to go good bad. You know, you
Speaker 1: did this, you're a bad person. You did this, you're
Speaker 1: a good person, And it's never that simple. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: people can do a lot of bad things and still
Speaker 1: be a good person. They can do good things and
Speaker 1: be a bad person, you know, they who's to say?
Speaker 1: And because we've tried to look at it on such
Speaker 1: a sort of supervisial level, it gets in the way
Speaker 1: of actually looking at what the problem is and how
Speaker 1: to repair it.
Speaker 3: So something that I'm curious to know is like, how
Speaker 3: do you spot true remorse from apologies that feel quite fake?
Speaker 3: Because you know, I can feel like I'm not convinced
Speaker 3: by an apology or that or whether that person who's
Speaker 3: hurt you really wants to change, like you're not just
Speaker 3: going to rebuild that trust, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is such a great question. Action speaks
Speaker 1: louder than words always, so yes, words are important. I
Speaker 1: think it's important to hear an apology. Sometimes people don't
Speaker 1: even get that right, So sometimes people will forgive without
Speaker 1: even getting an actual apology, which is a whole other level.
Speaker 1: But yeah, hearing the words is important as a sort
Speaker 1: of ground based level. But I don't think forgiveness can
Speaker 1: really happen until you see the change and the action
Speaker 1: that's put behind it, and not.
Speaker 2: Just for one week. And this where people go a
Speaker 2: bit wrong.
Speaker 1: I think it's like not just for one week, not
Speaker 1: just for two weeks, like we're talking several months. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because it's very easy to be on good behavior for
Speaker 1: a few weeks, so true, you know, and if you
Speaker 1: can't be on good behavior for even a few weeks,
Speaker 1: then this is like a dire situation. This is like
Speaker 1: next level. But most people can be on their good
Speaker 1: behavior for you know, a month or two. I think
Speaker 1: if we're getting up to sort of three to six months,
Speaker 1: that's actual behavior change, consistent behavior change. So important to
Speaker 1: get the actual I think to hear the other person
Speaker 1: be able to articulate to you that they're sorry, but
Speaker 1: also that they understand the impact on you. It's one
Speaker 1: thing to say I'm sorry, and it's another thing to
Speaker 1: be able to hear all the ways in which they
Speaker 1: can see they have impacted you.
Speaker 2: That's important.
Speaker 1: Then there would be that real showing the effort and
Speaker 1: consistency of like this is where and humbling themselves you know,
Speaker 1: it's like I understand that. You know, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to get the same privileges that I got before because
Speaker 1: I've hurt you and I have to work back to
Speaker 1: that place. And if you need to ask me questions,
Speaker 1: I'm willing to be open, I think to repair trust. Actually,
Speaker 1: this is a big one. I see a lot if
Speaker 1: the other person isn't willing to be fully open and
Speaker 1: put everything on the table, because you can get quite cagy,
Speaker 1: Like if you've been caught doing something or lying or whatever,
Speaker 1: you can get quite cagey. And particularly if the other
Speaker 1: person's really upset, you can be like, oh my god, okay,
Speaker 1: I do not want things to get worse. So you
Speaker 1: might withhold or like not quite tell the whole thing,
Speaker 1: or there might be another part and you're like I'm
Speaker 1: just not even going to go there, you know, and
Speaker 1: that will bite you again later. Yeah, So really being
Speaker 1: able to if you're the person that's done the betraying,
Speaker 1: I think, even if it's really scary, get it all
Speaker 1: out because every time you show that you're willing to
Speaker 1: even get yourself in more trouble just to be honest,
Speaker 1: that rebuilds the trust. Yeah, Yes, they're angry with you. Yes,
Speaker 1: they're probably hurt again because there's a new thing they've
Speaker 1: found out, but they've also learned. Okay, they're changing their behavior.
Speaker 1: They are being upfront and they're telling me things they
Speaker 1: know will upset me. That's behavior change.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so true.
Speaker 3: And it's interesting because like even in that example, it's
Speaker 3: like so often we we think in theory, oh, I
Speaker 3: just won't share that bit because right now we're working
Speaker 3: through this bit, and or like that's not gonna look good.
Speaker 3: So you withhold from a place of thinking that's the
Speaker 3: right move, but it really, it really isn't. And that's
Speaker 3: why I like that idea when you say we're putting
Speaker 3: it all out on the table.
Speaker 2: This is yeah, this is all my shit.
Speaker 3: Are we gonna work through it together or are we
Speaker 3: just gonna put glitter on it?
Speaker 2: Or we're just gonna put more shit on it, like.
Speaker 3: You know what?
Speaker 1: I yeah, yeah, because otherwise you're just kicking it down
Speaker 1: the road and you have less chance of repair because
Speaker 1: it's like another you're adding more betrayals on totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's yeah, the defensiveness, that's like I have to
Speaker 1: let that go away. I'm if I want to repair
Speaker 1: with that person. If I want them to forgive me,
Speaker 1: I have to be like fully defenseless.
Speaker 3: Yeah, after the break, we explore what it really looks
Speaker 3: like to forgive someone. So how do you guide someone
Speaker 3: to rebuild that kind of gut instinct when their judgment
Speaker 3: feels totally broken?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: People can get very yeah, distrustful of themselves, you know,
Speaker 1: there's that disappointment or let down in themselves, like can
Speaker 1: I even trust my gud? There's an element of that
Speaker 1: that can be true in some circumstances where it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I clearly missed something. I would then use that curiosity
Speaker 1: tool again. So rather than feeling shame about how did
Speaker 1: I not know? Yeah? You know, because a lot of
Speaker 1: people beat themselves up about that or like, I feel
Speaker 1: like an idiot. So often when someone's been lied to,
Speaker 1: they will feel like the idiot. Yeah, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: why are you an idiot? Person lying might be more
Speaker 1: of an idiot totally, but you know you're not the
Speaker 1: idiot here. So rather than shaming myself, why don't I
Speaker 1: get curious? Did I not ask questions about things? Did
Speaker 1: I kind of accept particular stories that didn't really make sense?
Speaker 1: But I just was like, mah, you know, like how
Speaker 1: present was I in this relationship or about this particular topic.
Speaker 1: Are there things that maybe I felt reluctant to push?
Speaker 1: Is this part of my people pleasing where if someone
Speaker 1: seemed a bit closed off, I just let it go,
Speaker 1: you know, So looking at where did I maybe see things?
Speaker 1: But based on just you know, some of my family
Speaker 1: of origin dynamics and how I am as a person,
Speaker 1: do I push for information or am I just kind
Speaker 1: of like, you know, off doing my own thing and
Speaker 1: just thinking everyone else is doing their own things too,
Speaker 1: Like am I not present enough in the kind of
Speaker 1: day to day stuff about surveilling? It's not about that,
Speaker 1: but just where am I maybe a bit two hands off?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's really good because I think, like,
Speaker 3: I know the times where I've been deeply betrayed and
Speaker 3: it like completely crushed me for a really long time.
Speaker 3: But I definitely went through that moment of oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: I completely missed all the cues that my body was
Speaker 3: telling me like for years, And I definitely went through
Speaker 3: the shame and like the different stages of grief, being
Speaker 3: in denial and all the different things. But then I
Speaker 3: eventually got to a place, and it definitely wasn't in
Speaker 3: two weeks.
Speaker 2: You know, it was a long process that I was like,
Speaker 2: oh wow.
Speaker 3: But there was something in me that clearly saw there
Speaker 3: was something off. And again it's not throwing like positivity
Speaker 3: around it, but it kind of helped to cultivate a
Speaker 3: bit of hope and being like, oh, I guess I
Speaker 3: was in tuned in some way.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I believe our bodies don't lie.
Speaker 1: Our nervous system is our best friend, even when it's
Speaker 1: making us feel crazy things. Yeah, it's very rare that
Speaker 1: we don't notice big things, like, you know, things that
Speaker 1: aren't right. We do usually notice, but there are so
Speaker 1: many like overrides that can happen for so many different reasons.
Speaker 1: So I'd be getting curious about those overrides. Rather than
Speaker 1: not trusting myself or my nervous system, I would be
Speaker 1: just going, Okay, what are the little overrides that I
Speaker 1: tend to do?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, do I minimize Do I sort of like not
Speaker 1: feed into things and paint things with this beautiful glitter?
Speaker 1: Do I just kind of like avoid tricky conversations or yeah,
Speaker 1: something there that Yeah, I think it's not so much
Speaker 1: that your instinct's broken.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 3: So in terms of like some of the clients that
Speaker 3: you see, can you tell me more about people's fears
Speaker 3: of being hurt? Is that something that you see a lot,
Speaker 3: especially after being deeply betrayed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And depending on the sense of of a person.
Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is we feel emotions,
Speaker 1: like it's a spectrum of how intense people feel emotions.
Speaker 1: I think there is this kind of misunderstanding that we
Speaker 1: all feel things to the same level, and therefore there
Speaker 1: can be kind of judgment around like, Okay, well that
Speaker 1: happened to me and like I was fine, so I
Speaker 1: got over it, So like why can't they get over it?
Speaker 1: And first of all, I mean, every situation is different.
Speaker 1: But also we don't all feel things to the same intensity.
Speaker 1: So we all know someone who is like very emotional
Speaker 1: and maybe they cry a lot, or maybe they you know,
Speaker 1: they feel things so deeply and they might be super
Speaker 1: compassionate or like, you know, just yeah, really excitable. And
Speaker 1: then there's those people who are more like sort of
Speaker 1: just steady going. Of course, they still feel emotions. They
Speaker 1: can feel sad, they can be depressed, they can be overjoyed,
Speaker 1: but it just is a less intense experience for them.
Speaker 2: So depending on what type of.
Speaker 1: And where you are on that range, right, you know it,
Speaker 1: depending on that will I guess inform how you're going
Speaker 1: to react when something really hurtful happens and how intense
Speaker 1: your fear will be about it happening again.
Speaker 2: So even though we only know.
Speaker 1: How bad bad is to us, right, yeah, but if
Speaker 1: bad to me feels like I am like unable to
Speaker 1: get out of bed, or I have like a physical pain,
Speaker 1: or you know, it's something that really manifests into this massive,
Speaker 1: overwhelming physical feeling, that will be a lot harder to
Speaker 1: potentially face again than someone who feeling really bad will
Speaker 1: feel like a heaviness and will feel like very painful
Speaker 1: and hurtful to them.
Speaker 2: But isn't this all consuming feeling?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they may have that better resilience to face
Speaker 1: the potential of that again.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So if I'm, yeah, one of those particularly more sensitive
Speaker 1: people or more highly emotive people, I would probably be
Speaker 1: more likely to cut off or just not you know,
Speaker 1: give people chances where maybe the repair could be really good,
Speaker 1: but I just can't deal with going there again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So it really would be around starting to build some
Speaker 1: of that emotional regulation strategies, and you know, how do
Speaker 1: I deal with my intense emotions? Do I have a
Speaker 1: support system?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Do I see a therapist or do I know what
Speaker 1: to do when I'm feeling really depressed or hurt?
Speaker 2: Or am I coping skills just like completely.
Speaker 1: Out of like oh, just a rogue and I'm just
Speaker 1: like bumbling through life trying my best. Yeah, because the
Speaker 1: better coping skills you have, you can build trust in
Speaker 1: yourself to cope with really bad situations again.
Speaker 3: Yeah, which are going to naturally happen in life. So yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's a good skill set as well. So can that
Speaker 3: unprocessed hurt ever sabotage new relationships before they even start?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that whole like baggage thing, right, the little
Speaker 1: suitcases we take around with us everywhere and relationships.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1: And awareness is the key piece of this, because you
Speaker 1: can have baggage. Everybody has baggage, nothing wrong with it,
Speaker 1: But if you aren't aware of your baggage, then it
Speaker 1: will be.
Speaker 2: Projected onto the other person. Yeah. And if the other person, depending.
Speaker 1: On how aware they are, they might be able to
Speaker 1: see what you'll see sort of what's happening and be like, hey,
Speaker 1: like this isn't about me, Like, I don't know what's
Speaker 1: going on, but you're throwing some stuff at me and
Speaker 1: it's not what's happening here. But if they're not aware,
Speaker 1: they will feed into it and be like you know,
Speaker 1: and then it kind of turns into this really sort
Speaker 1: of unstable dynamic there. So having your awareness of your baggage,
Speaker 1: you know, whether that's through therapy or some you know,
Speaker 1: your own sort of like self help stuff and reflective
Speaker 1: work that you could be able to do, is key
Speaker 1: to being able to have a successful relationship because it's
Speaker 1: it's impossible that I'm not going to have baggage, and
Speaker 1: it's impossible that my partner or my friend or my
Speaker 1: family member isn't going to trigger my baggage at times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if.
Speaker 1: I know what it is, then I can respond differently. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to respond to you the same way
Speaker 1: if I understand that this is actually my stuff that's
Speaker 1: been triggered and it's not actually you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not going to blat it at you.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I know that I need to maybe like do some
Speaker 1: of my own self regulation process it work it out,
Speaker 1: but I'm not going to shove it onto you, which
Speaker 1: is going to stop the little things that sort of
Speaker 1: chip away at a good relationship.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So it's interesting because I know we've like
Speaker 3: talked a little bit about repair and forgiveness, but what
Speaker 3: happens if like it's not possible, Like do people ever
Speaker 3: get to a stage where they're like, I've tried, it's
Speaker 3: not working.
Speaker 2: Do they just need to let that person go?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it can be hard to get to a
Speaker 1: place of letting go. We don't like to let go
Speaker 1: of things, you know, as people, we don't want to
Speaker 1: let go or with the other type of let's go
Speaker 1: of everyone when we need.
Speaker 4: To hold on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, where's the middle ground? We can really pendule
Speaker 2: them swing, can't we totally? Totally? That's it. Literally everything
Speaker 2: in therapy is about finding the middle ground.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So, Yeah, if I know that I'm someone that tends
Speaker 1: to not let go, what is it about that that
Speaker 1: is keeping me in this sort of like false safe
Speaker 1: place Because there's this like faux safety about holding on
Speaker 1: when really I'm holding onto something that I've already understood
Speaker 1: is potentially unhealthy or not trustworthy and causes me pain,
Speaker 1: and yet I keep holding on. So it's that familiarity.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: We love familiarity, even if it's like the devil we know, right,
Speaker 1: I know that you're probably gonna hurt me, but I
Speaker 1: know the ways in which you do it, and I
Speaker 1: know what to expect, and I know that I can
Speaker 1: handle it. Like there's a subconscious sort of understanding that like, Okay,
Speaker 1: this type of pain, I know I can survive this
Speaker 1: type of unfamiliar pain.
Speaker 4: I don't know, so I we'll just deal with this, yea. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 4: there's so many layers to it. More of my conversation
Speaker 4: with Sarah after the short break. If someone's obviously been
Speaker 4: deeply hurt and they're in a new relationship, something I'm
Speaker 4: curious about it is, like, what's the difference between guarded
Speaker 4: in a healthy way versus being emotionally unavailable?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: You know there's such a slight difference in that.
Speaker 1: Yes, Yeah, And people can think they're doing one thing
Speaker 1: when they're doing the other. So people can be like, no,
Speaker 1: this is just me, you know, taking things slowly and
Speaker 1: making sure that I'm not being fooled again, or that
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not going to trust someone too soon.
Speaker 1: The problem though, is if you are not allowing a
Speaker 1: new connection to form, you're going to push away potentially
Speaker 1: a good new person because you are too guarded, which
Speaker 1: is more just that I've not let myself be emotionally available.
Speaker 1: So I would be looking at where do I get
Speaker 1: in the way of the other person getting.
Speaker 2: To see the real me?
Speaker 1: Because if I'm not giving much of the real me
Speaker 1: or like vulnerable me in safe snippets like you know.
Speaker 1: And I think this is the thing that time is
Speaker 1: a big factor in this where people don't sort of
Speaker 1: consider that over time I need to be giving bigger
Speaker 1: and bigger chunks of me. In the beginning, I don't
Speaker 1: know someone very well, so my trust for them is small,
Speaker 1: so the vulnerability I give is small. And as I
Speaker 1: grow to trust them and know them, that grows, and
Speaker 1: my vulnerability that I.
Speaker 2: Should be giving grows.
Speaker 1: So it's sort of like the two have to grow
Speaker 1: at the same time. Rather than I've known you and
Speaker 1: trusted you over time now, but I'm still in the
Speaker 1: giving this little bit fair that's eventually not going to
Speaker 1: be enough for another person. Yeah, So I'd be looking at, like,
Speaker 1: have I been giving little parts of myself and if not,
Speaker 1: what do I feel like I could start trying to give.
Speaker 3: So something else that I'm curious about is what kind
Speaker 3: of practical tools do you use to help them build
Speaker 3: their confidence to know that they need a trust but
Speaker 3: if they get hurt again, that's going to be okay.
Speaker 1: Acceptance is a key strategy in this right where if
Speaker 1: I go into something thinking I'm not going to get
Speaker 1: hurt again, I'm not going to allow that to happen.
Speaker 1: I'm never going to go through that again. It's this
Speaker 1: real like rigidity and it's also like this energy that's
Speaker 1: just intense, and it doesn't allow for possibility, new ones,
Speaker 1: you know, new things happening, and so acceptance around the
Speaker 1: fact that I can't guarantee that I'm never going to
Speaker 1: get hurt again, Yeah, is a big part of it.
Speaker 1: So how do we accept that? I mean, acceptance isn't
Speaker 1: a one and done thing. It's sometimes we have to
Speaker 1: turn our mind to acceptance many many times, and it
Speaker 1: could be a million times in a day, could be
Speaker 1: ones a day, be you know, every time we just
Speaker 1: get triggered again, we have to go back and work
Speaker 1: on that acceptance piece. But it's sort of like I
Speaker 1: need to accept that there is possibility that I will
Speaker 1: get hurt. That's sort of a part one, And then
Speaker 1: the part two is do I have enough resources and
Speaker 1: support around me as far as like my own coping skills,
Speaker 1: maybe a therapeutic support, you know, friends, family, whatever. That
Speaker 1: tells me that even if I am hurt again, that
Speaker 1: I know that I have enough support around me that
Speaker 1: I will get through it, because it's like that's the
Speaker 1: foundation too, feeling safe enough.
Speaker 2: To trust again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also trusting that I have learned from previous experiences. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we have to give ourselves that grace of Okay, I
Speaker 1: have to have learned something. And as long as like
Speaker 1: am curious about what I've learned, and I actually keep
Speaker 1: that in my sort of front part of the brain,
Speaker 1: is well, how I like to call it, in terms
Speaker 1: of like in our general ability to recall and implement
Speaker 1: that into our decision making versus like, Okay, that happened,
Speaker 1: that was shit. Put that to the back and just
Speaker 1: like never think about that again. I'd be really using
Speaker 1: that curiosity and learning and keeping it in my frontal
Speaker 1: part where I can pull from it when meeting a
Speaker 1: new person. Yeah, that's so true, because I'm not the
Speaker 1: same person now as before I learned something exactly like
Speaker 1: we are different now from that experience. And I know
Speaker 1: there'll be people who go, yeah, but I keep on
Speaker 1: getting into the same thing. And it's like, yep, And
Speaker 1: what are the things that you are pushing to the
Speaker 1: back of your brain and those things that you may
Speaker 1: be noticing but not responding to or minimizing that are
Speaker 1: keeping you in that cycle?
Speaker 3: At what point does protecting yourself start costing you the
Speaker 3: kind of connection you actually want.
Speaker 1: When you can see that the other person is giving
Speaker 1: more of themselves than you are and are kind of
Speaker 1: looking for it, I think that's a big little warning
Speaker 1: bell where it's like, okay, like they might be asking
Speaker 1: me questions about me or about my life experiences, and
Speaker 1: do I notice that I'm giving sort of surface answers
Speaker 1: or there's things that I'm like, well, not going to
Speaker 1: talk about that don't go there, you know, because even
Speaker 1: if you're very good at kind of masking and hiding
Speaker 1: that the other person is going to pick up on it.
Speaker 1: That there is sort of like an endpoint to how
Speaker 1: far you're willing to go. And that's okay, Like you
Speaker 1: don't have to be giving everything immediately. But if it
Speaker 1: doesn't change over time, that's where it's like, you are
Speaker 1: going to impede your ability to connect with this person
Speaker 1: to make something deep and foundational. But I do also
Speaker 1: think that it can depend on the other person because
Speaker 1: if the other person is also like that. Let's say,
Speaker 1: if you've got two hurt people coming together that are
Speaker 1: very guarded, it does become one of those kind of
Speaker 1: those avoidant relationships where we're so for sevel, we don't
Speaker 1: go too deep.
Speaker 2: We don't know that.
Speaker 1: Much about each other's past. You know, I've got some
Speaker 1: couples that come in who basically don't speak about previous relationships,
Speaker 1: and I just think, oh, my goodness, do you know
Speaker 1: how much gold there is in there? We need to
Speaker 1: We don't need to know like the ins and outs
Speaker 1: and every single detail, but just what are some of
Speaker 1: the experiences that your partner has had in life that
Speaker 1: would shape them. That's important for you to know. That's
Speaker 1: a big learning piece for both of you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, And it takes and it takes courage to
Speaker 3: lean into that vulnerability. But we all know that vulnerability
Speaker 3: fosters more connections safety respect as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but again, This isn't something that needs to be
Speaker 1: done right away, but over time it should be building
Speaker 1: blocks into how much vulnerability that I get I give,
Speaker 1: and also that I should be getting.
Speaker 2: What would you want to say to someone right now?
Speaker 3: That's kind of learning how to trust again, and they're
Speaker 3: on that journey of healing now.
Speaker 1: I would say, don't rush yourself, don't judge yourself. It's
Speaker 1: okay to have good days and bad days in.
Speaker 2: It, you know.
Speaker 1: I think it's not a linear thing, like with anything
Speaker 1: it is. You know, some moments I feel like, yes,
Speaker 1: I can let them in again, you know, and then
Speaker 1: other moments it's like absolutely not. Oh my god, what
Speaker 1: if they hurt me again? So, you know, being able
Speaker 1: to just be kind yourself as you go in the
Speaker 1: ups and downs, but just keep I think it's keeping
Speaker 1: the aim of what you're actually looking for at the
Speaker 1: head there where it's like I'm looking for my ability
Speaker 1: to keep being open and honest about how I'm feeling
Speaker 1: and if I'm feeling insecure or if I'm worried that
Speaker 1: they're doing something to me again, being able to communicate it,
Speaker 1: being able to regulate myself so that I don't keep
Speaker 1: putting my fears onto the other person, I regulate it,
Speaker 1: I communicate it. And then the third one is what
Speaker 1: am I seeing from them? How do I reassure myself
Speaker 1: or just keep aware of whether they are pulling their part?
Speaker 1: Are they consistently showing that behavior change, are they being defensive?
Speaker 2: Are they being workable?
Speaker 1: Are they willing to do therapy or make some changes
Speaker 1: to ensure that this isn't going to happen again?
Speaker 2: And have they looked at the actual root of the problem.
Speaker 1: And just reassure and remind yourself with that as you
Speaker 1: kind of keep working through your own sort of up
Speaker 1: and down with it.
Speaker 3: So when it comes to rebuilding trust, like how much
Speaker 3: of the details do we need to go in from
Speaker 3: the past like to get that kind of closure In
Speaker 3: a way.
Speaker 1: This is something that can be make or break for
Speaker 1: a lot of trust rebuilding situations, because of course, it's
Speaker 1: important to know enough detail that you feel that you
Speaker 1: have a clear understanding of exactly what the betrayal was
Speaker 1: like in terms of you know, that's how we categorize
Speaker 1: in our brains, how bad was it?
Speaker 2: Was it this level of bad? Did they do this?
Speaker 2: Did they do that like? Or was it just this?
Speaker 1: You know, so that's how our brain tries to categorize,
Speaker 1: So we do get into this kind of thing of
Speaker 1: needing to know, particularly when we're very anxious about being
Speaker 1: hurt again. Sometimes people go into this like detective mode
Speaker 1: I call it, where they just like have to get
Speaker 1: all the clues and all the details, and it can
Speaker 1: become a bit of a vicious cycle where it's never
Speaker 1: enough and then it's like, oh, tell me again, so
Speaker 1: what happened.
Speaker 2: After you texted her?
Speaker 1: And then at what time did she write back? And
Speaker 1: then this happened, but hang on, but last time you
Speaker 1: said this, and so it can become this kind of
Speaker 1: like digging operation for more, and it's an attempt to
Speaker 1: self soothe, but it actually just keeps you really stuck,
Speaker 1: and it can keep those wounded feelings coming back. And
Speaker 1: the other person is probably, you know, really hopefully trying
Speaker 1: to rebuild the trust, so they're trying to be really
Speaker 1: honest and open, but it gets to a point where
Speaker 1: you're actually not getting anything helpful for the repair and
Speaker 1: you know already enough of the bad stuff that it's
Speaker 1: not like there's anything extra bomb that you're going to
Speaker 1: get dropped. It's just like I'm now just hurting myself
Speaker 1: and getting in the way of the repair. So in
Speaker 1: those situations, I really advise couples once they've you got
Speaker 1: to air it out properly. You have a couple of
Speaker 1: really in depth conversations and get all the detail out.
Speaker 1: After that, there's an expiration date on going through the
Speaker 1: details again. It has to just kind of be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: if I go back into those kind of questions and
Speaker 1: digging again, either you call me out or I try
Speaker 1: and notice that and be like, sorry, I'm doing that
Speaker 1: thing again. I'm just feeling anxious, or I'm feeling insecure,
Speaker 1: or I'm worrying that you're doing it again. That's okay
Speaker 1: to say things like that, but to ye kind of
Speaker 1: keep bringing up and trying to dig for more, it's
Speaker 1: like this sort of like torturous experiment that just doesn't
Speaker 1: get people anywhere, and it really stops people from moving forward.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I really like when you said there's an expiration date
Speaker 3: on the details.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, there's a point where enough is enough.
Speaker 1: I know enough of the bad that I can put
Speaker 1: it in the category that I need and then it's
Speaker 1: like this is now just torture.
Speaker 2: I just gotta let it go.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, I really loved this conversation with Sarah, and
Speaker 3: I hope it made you realize that you are not
Speaker 3: alone in the hurt that you've been moving through, and
Speaker 3: remember that you can and you will get to the
Speaker 3: other side. You can find links to Sarah's work in
Speaker 3: our show notes. Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of
Speaker 3: the land and waters on which this podcast was recorded