WEBVTT - Why You Don't Trust Anyone Anymore (And How To Change That) 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.280 You almost have to get to a place of being 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:04.840 able to accept that. If I decide that I want 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:08.480 to stay, I have to be prepared for the potential that. 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:09.399 I could get hurt like that. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.880 Again, it may never happen and great, but I have 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:15.120 to be prepared for that because there's no guarantees in life, 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:16.440 and I also. 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:19.200 Have to trust that I will be okay. 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:22.319 I might be devastated, I might be hurt, but that 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:27.720 I will be able to continue on in life. 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:32.840 Welcome to you, but are you happy? I'm a shiny 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:37.720 Dante question. Have you ever been betrayed before? Had your 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.280 trust broken? Who are we kidding? Most of us have right, 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.199 But the hard part is what comes next, trying to 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:48.519 rebuild trust, not just with the person who broke it, 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.519 but in yourself too, that gut feeling that tells you 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.800 whether someone is lying, whether you can actually trust them 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:00.400 or not. Today where unpacking the psychology of trust with 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.800 Sarah Bays. She's a Sydney based psychotherapist, host of Mum 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.480 and MEA's relationship podcast This Is Why We Fight and 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:13.160 founder of Motivated Minds, a counseling practice focused on relationships. 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.840 We spoke to her for our episode on situation ships too, 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:19.720 So links her in the show notes Sarah works with 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:24.560 so many people navigating trust after betrayal, whether that's infidelity, 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:28.440 family secrets, or having the rug pulled out from under them, 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.319 and what she helps them do is rebuild that confidence 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.240 to trust again, to let people in again, and not 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.520 shut down new connections just because trust has been broken 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:39.959 in the past. So joined Sarah and I in the 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:42.479 buta you happy studio for this incredible conversation. 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:44.560 Welcome back, Sarah. 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:48.160 I'm excited to talk about trust with you. 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:49.520 Yes, me too. 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.720 Look, I now trust you a lot after our first chat, 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:54.760 so I trust that this will go fine. 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:57.640 But no, I yeah, this is a big one. It's 0:01:57.680 --> 0:01:59.360 a big one. It is a big one. 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:03.800 And you know, for someone listening now who's been deeply 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:07.720 betrayed or hurt before, what would you want to say 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:08.520 to them right now? 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:10.520 Oh, it's so tough, you know. 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:18.080 I think being betrayed or they having that, it's so tough. 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:20.720 I think having that feeling of being betrayed by someone 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:24.600 you really care for, and particularly when it's that blindsided feeling, 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:30.440 it is like weld chattering often and it can feel 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:33.520 like how is everything going to come back into place again. 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:35.960 It's sort of like your world can break into different 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.320 pieces and it's like I don't understand how it's going 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:40.920 to be back how it was now. And I think 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:44.160 the biggest advice from my end is that your world 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:47.080 will come back together. It might look the same, it 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.560 might look slightly different, or it might look completely different, 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.440 but it will come back together. But it's like too 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:55.600 soon now for you to be able to try and 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.040 put it back together. It's just kind of like, yeah, 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.920 this is going to hurt and be hard, but it 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:02.600 is going to come back together in some way. 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:03.280 Yeah. 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:06.880 And it's kind of finding that balance between authentically meeting 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:09.839 where you're at, but also to bring some hope into 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:11.799 it because it does feel a bit hopeless when you're 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:12.120 in it. 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:13.200 Yeah. 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.639 Yeah, yeah, And I wonder whether there's this sort of 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:18.359 like rush to put the. 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:19.360 Pieces back together. 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.160 I just want to kind of whether it's moved forward 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:25.400 or move away. But it's like sitting in that place 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:29.040 where it's just oh, is hard and this is where 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:30.800 most people want to be moving. 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:32.280 Yeah, yeah, totally. 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:36.120 It's interesting you say that because, like, I, is there 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:40.040 an impact on not sitting in it, like not allowing 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:41.520 ourselves to sit in the hurt. 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:43.280 Yeah, big time. 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:48.480 This is where people will make decisions that aren't really 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:53.400 in their best interests or attuned with what they actually need. 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:53.920 Yeah. 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:58.000 So, let's say it might lead to forgiving someone too quickly, 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:02.240 not holding somebody accountable, or not really thinking about the 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.920 long term consequences of deciding that this doesn't really matter 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:09.040 and maybe minimizing it. Or it can lead to the 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:12.160 other side of things where people just cut off that's it, 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:15.960 end a relationship or cut somebody out of their lives, 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.360 rather than actually sit with and deal with it where 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:22.560 it may not have to lead to a cutoff. 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:26.000 Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I think what I'm curious 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.800 about is like, what kinds of hurts do you see 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.279 most often messing with people's ability to trust again? 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:36.400 And how does that show up in their day to day. 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:40.480 Yeah, so it would be things. The obvious one is 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:43.080 the relationships. You know, a betrayal of some kind in 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:46.599 the relationship, like a romantic one where there's either a 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:51.039 cheating something along those lines, or it can be one 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:55.000 where I would say, let's say with family members or 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.000 close friends, where there's been a lie, like a really 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:03.600 big lie or withholding of infant nation that feels pertinent 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.039 to who I am as a person, and now I 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.640 have to refigure everything out and what I think about 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.160 myself and the world. And you know, so sometimes where 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:14.800 there's like a family member who has decided not to 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.400 tell you a certain something about either yourself or them 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:20.240 or the family, and you find that out down the 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.280 track and it's like world chattering, or you know, it 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.240 could be a really close friend that has held something 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.520 from you or or told you something that made you 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:32.479 believe things or act a certain way, and it actually 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:34.640 isn't the reality at all. So it's kind of like 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:38.600 my whole reality gets shifted. They're the ones that I think. 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.880 People struggle with the most to do that repair and 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:42.760 rebuild a trust. 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:45.520 Yeah yeah, yeah, And it's interesting because I feel like trust, 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:49.080 there's so much to that word, especially when it comes 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:50.159 to relating with people. 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:51.799 Yeah. 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.599 So something that I'm curious about is how do we 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.279 learn to build trust from a young age because those 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:02.080 years would be really informative to how we build trust 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.640 later on in life. Absolutely the blueprint for everything it's 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.480 created in those is life back in your childhood or 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:10.800 some family trauma, Like it always comes back to that. 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.800 I know it's so cliche and annoying, but it is. 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.880 It's true, It's grounded in some truths there, absolutely, so 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:21.440 we do. It's back back to the attachment stuff again. 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:25.880 So our primary attachment the first relationship we ever build. 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.520 So whoever our primary caregiver is, they are the ones 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.919 that teach us first about trust. And it can be 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:37.680 as early back as I'm a baby, I am crying? 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:41.599 Will I trust? Do I know that if I'm crying 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.320 that someone will come to me? Do I know that 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:48.720 there is a consistent supply of food and nurture and 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.120 warmth and things like that? So it really comes from 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:53.800 such a biological level at first, and where the nervous 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:57.360 system really, you know, sort of guides us with that. 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:00.120 Where how distressed do I get if I'm left to 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.360 lone as a baby, or how you know what happens 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.240 to me if I'm hungry? Will I have Is it 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:08.920 intermittent when I get food or are there long stretches 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.680 where I don't know? So there's this actual like trust 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:17.000 about our survival that we I guess subconsciously build with 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:20.240 our caregiver. So depending on our experiences in that part 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.960 of our life. That will be the first sort of 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:26.360 foundation of that blueprint of whether the world is a 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.440 good place, a scary place, a place where you know, 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:31.680 we aren't sure it can be good, sometimes bad, sometimes 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.080 you know, is it inconsistent? That's the beginning, and then 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:38.160 of course, you know, adding layers onto that as we 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:44.000 develop and start to understand what lies are, what is lying, 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:47.679 what happens when we get tricked for the first time. 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:50.600 You know, it's like probably our sibling might have played 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:51.880 a prank on us or something like that. 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:54.520 But you know where we get tricked or we thought 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:58.640 something was going to happen and it didn't happen that way, 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.080 and so we start to, I guess, have these little 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:08.880 experiences that tell us about that you don't always know 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.200 that things are what they are, And depending on what 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.840 type of support system and coping strategies and narrative that 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:19.920 the family has around that stuff will really change how 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:24.280 you internalize those experiences, because everybody would get tricked or 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:28.280 would get lied to, or you know, feel someone was 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:30.720 betraying them, like a friend, you know, my best friend 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.080 and then now she's her best friend tomorrow. You know, 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.800 like there's all these like childhood experiences that are normal 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:39.040 for us to go through. And that doesn't mean you're 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.480 going to be a guarded person forever. If you've got 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.640 a family that could talk to you about those things 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.120 and help you process and understand what's going on there, 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.160 and that you know there are many reasons as to 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:54.559 why these things can happen, and that we do have 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.880 to question and use our gut instinct and you know, 0:08:58.000 --> 0:08:59.880 check in with our tummy and what does it feel 0:08:59.880 --> 0:09:01.719 like I can does that feel right or not right? 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:01.920 You know? 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.160 So all these skills that we either got taught or 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.000 didn't get taught as children. 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:09.439 Role modeling is a big one. Do we see our 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.120 parents lying or you know, betraying, you know. 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:17.200 Is there whether there's infidelity and family systems and things 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.080 like that. So there's so many things that start creating 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:22.880 that landscape of what trust is for us. 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:25.679 I can imagine some parents that are tuning in being like, 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:26.840 oh no, should I not. 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:28.800 Be lying to my child at the same. 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:30.959 Day, please lie to your children. Let me put you 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:34.319 out there, no children, it's fine to lie to your 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:41.600 kids or thoughtfully lying to our children. If we thoughtfully 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.599 lie to our children, I mean it can be necessary 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:46.959 at times. But I do think kids actually are way 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:49.480 more resilient than you think, and telling kids the truth 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:53.679 about big things in a child appropriate way, but they 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.439 sense when you're lying. That's the thing, you know. They 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.280 don't have those override things that we've got as an 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.320 adult that override our nervous system and our gut and 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:04.720 tell us no, no, that's not what's happening. Kids don't 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:07.960 have that, So if you lie to them, they usually know, 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.120 particularly if it's something that you feel uncomfortable about. So 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:16.240 it's more around if I lie to my kids, is 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:20.120 it to protect them? Do they actually need protecting from that? 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:22.679 Or is it to protect me? Maybe I feel uncomfortable 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.440 talking about that, you know, So if it's more about you, 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:30.160 then I would wonder whether it's worth lying. But no, 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:33.520 it's more so the narrative around it. You know that 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.760 sometimes people lie, and there's different reasons why people lie. 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:41.040 So it's even introducing it as a sort of concept 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:45.280 to young kids and being able to explore that non judgmentally, 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.240 but also you know, giving them skills and tools of 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:51.439 like what happens when we get lied to and when 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.320 we might feel hurt, how do we manage that? And 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:54.920 what would we. 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:56.200 Do next time with that person? 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.280 Would we maybe wait a little bit longer before we 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:01.320 agree to go and play with them, or would we 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.760 want to see that they're now acting nicely before we 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:05.760 hang out with them again. So it's just like you 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.920 can even teach these little skills from the beginning. 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:13.160 Yeah, there's always a lesson to everything. Yeah, Like when 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.720 we do say trust, like, are we talking about believing 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.360 someone won't hurt us or believing that we can handle 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:21.000 it if they do. 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:24.560 That's a good one because there's yeah, trust in others 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:28.559 and trust in ourselves, and I think it kind of overlaps. 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:34.280 When people really struggle to rebuild trust, it's often partially 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:41.360 because they don't trust themselves. If it's a thoughtful choice 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:45.040 to no longer trust that person, that's a different story. 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.120 That's nothing to do with your own self trust. But 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.680 when people have decided that they want to rebuild trust 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.920 and they want to work on it, but they start 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:58.559 doing things that get in the way of that, that 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.760 usually indicates to me that they don't trust themselves. 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.320 Yeah. Yeah, are you able to share more about that? 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:10.000 Yeah, Yeah, it's one I see a lot with couples, 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.600 particularly when there's been a big betrayal. It could be, 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:18.800 you know, your partner has actually been using drugs for 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:21.640 the last few years and maybe spent most of your 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.760 savings that you had as a couple. Or it could 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.240 be that your partner has been cheating or had an 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:31.680 affair or something like that. I see with a partner 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:35.920 who's been betrayed, they can get into a place where 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:40.160 they decided they want to stay. They've decided they don't 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.920 want to leave the relationship. They're coming to couples therapy, 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.560 but they are not giving their partner the chance to 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:52.520 actually repair the trust because to do that, you have 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.520 to give them the opportunity. So they almost have to 0:12:55.520 --> 0:13:00.360 be given enough leeway to hurt you again, yeah, or 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:02.520 to show you that they've learned something and that they 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:06.040 really are sorry and that they are making behavior change. 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:10.120 And people can be very very hesitant to let their 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:14.680 partner have enough rope to either go whichever way they're 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:16.319 going to go with it, so they almost like keep 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:21.479 them on this really tight leash. There's this almost punitive 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:23.360 but you know, and it comes from hurt and anger 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.920 and all of that, but there's this almost like I'm 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:27.560 not letting them off the hook, I'm not letting them 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:29.400 off the hook, and it's like, Okay, well, then we're 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.080 going to stay in that place, you know, because if 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:34.880 you don't know if you can handle being hurt like 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:38.600 that again, then trying to repair is not going to 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.679 go anywhere. You almost have to get to a place 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.240 of being able to accept that if I decide that 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.160 I want to stay, I have to be prepared for 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.560 the potential that I could get hurt like that again. 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:52.719 It may never happen, and great, but I have to 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:54.880 be prepared for that because there's no guarantees in life, 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.959 and I also have to trust that I will be okay, 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.400 might be devastated, I might be hurt, but that I 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.680 will be able to continue on in life. 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:05.520 Yeah. 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.320 So they're those things that I see people really get 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:13.640 stuck in, these kind of like painful places where yes 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:16.480 they're not the one that's done the betrayal, but they're 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.520 now keeping the whole dynamic stuck because of their fear. 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.080 It's kind of like they kind of have to give 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.880 up something, which sucks in a way because they're the 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:28.080 ones that got deeply hurt. 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:30.080 But yeah, it's like I already got hurt, Why am 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:31.680 I having to do Like why am I having to 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:32.600 do the scary thing now? 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:33.680 Yeah, totally. 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.040 And it's interesting too because like one of the words 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.120 that I heard from you, like you're talking about repair, 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.160 you know, and that's a very important part of healing. Yeah, 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:42.960 But also there was another word that you use before 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:46.800 around forgiveness, and you know, forgiveness, you know, I really 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:48.920 see that as a really important part of healing. 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.680 But I'm also curious to know, like, do we have 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:53.680 to forgive everyone? 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:54.560 Oh? 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:59.160 Absolutely not. There you go, No, don't forgive anyone, no, no. 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:04.600 Look, Forgiveness is an interesting one because there's a lot 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.120 of different schools of thought on this. And for some people, 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.040 forgiveness is about forgiving the other, and for some people 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:19.040 forgiveness is actually for themselves, as in freeing myself from hatred, anger, pain, 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.400 you know, fear of a certain person or situation. So 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:24.520 it depends on what angle you're looking at it. But 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.080 I do believe there are things in life that you 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:32.920 don't need to forgive, as in allow that person to 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.360 continue to be in your space, continue to be in 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.440 a relationship with them, continue to have contact. I think 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:42.080 it's completely acceptable to decide I don't wish to be 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.280 in this relationship or I don't want that person in 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:49.360 my life. I can still also forgive though, Yeah, so 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:53.840 I can decide that I'm not holding all my hatred 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:57.080 and anger for that person anymore, but they also are 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:01.720 no longer in my space, yes, so yeah? Or if 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:05.480 I do want to forgive, what's behind my forgiveness? Is 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.080 it because I don't like this uncomfortable feeling? Is it 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.760 that I just want everything to be okay again? Or 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:14.960 do I actually value and care for this relationship enough 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.600 that I and I and that there's enough in it 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.840 that I see the other person is willing and actively 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.360 doing the things they need to to change. That tells me, okay, 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:26.400 I'll forgive here. 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:27.840 Yeah. 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.040 I find forgiveness is such an interesting word because I 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.680 think sometimes but when they think of forgiveness, it's like, oh, okay, yeah, 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.320 I when I if I was to forgive someone, then 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:39.760 I'm letting them off the hook exactly. And I think 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.480 that I actually believe it's not bad in a way. 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:46.280 It's like, actually, you know, I forgive, but I don't forget. Yeah, 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.000 And that's like a side of your own self respect 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:51.960 and what you're worth as well. So it's good to 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.200 kind of bring a light to the nuances in forgiveness 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.040 because it can be misinterpreted in a way. 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:01.840 Yeah, and that forgiveness equally condoning is a big misconception 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.200 where but if I forgive them, am I telling them 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:06.879 that that's okay and that they could do it again 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.240 or that it wasn't that bad or that I'll stay 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.399 if they do it again. And that's very much conflating 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:13.840 two very different things. 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:16.800 You know, I can choose to move. 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.720 On from something without agreeing that that was an okay 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:21.480 thing to have done. 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:22.680 Yeah, totally. 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:25.720 And when it does come to forgiveness, like what does 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.160 it actually look like to forgive someone? Do they need 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:31.480 to have that confrontation or. 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:33.399 Like just be like, hey, look, I forgive you, or 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:37.280 is that kind of like a in a self reflection process. 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:42.600 It's definitely more internal, which then indicates what type of 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:46.320 conversations you're then going to have. So it informs rather 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:48.439 so it informs the type of conversations that you're going 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.440 to have with that person after you've done your own 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:55.159 internal kind of you know, little brains trust meeting around it, 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:57.080 and you know, the heart and the brain have to 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:59.160 get together a little bit, and the nervous system plays 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:00.919 a big part as well well, because I think that 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:03.880 this is what gets when the nervous system has been 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:09.400 particularly shocked. It can get in the way of being 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.480 able to think clearly about what I want to do here. 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.680 So it does require some time actually before you can 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:20.280 get into that real clear space of what would forgiveness 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.760 mean to me? Does this apply here? Is this a 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:28.200 situation where I feel like I can forgive? Sometimes people 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.679 try to forgive and I don't think that they're able to, 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:35.560 And that's, you know, that's the reality is that sometimes 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.879 we are not able to forgive something. And if we 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.760 keep on staying in that relationship but not forgiving, it 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:47.800 can become quite It can become abusive in bad situations 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.160 because we're sort of, you know, we're not treating someone 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:52.520 with respect anymore. When you know, if I've lost complete 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:56.280 respect for you, I feel really hurt and angry by you, 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.800 and I just can't get over it. Staying in relationship 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:02.359 with you would not be nice, not nice for me, 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.040 but also not nice for you, Like walking on eggshells 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.240 in a way you don't know, Yeah, Like I wouldn't 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:09.880 be showing up as the person I want to show 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:13.840 up in that relationship, and I'm sure the other person 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:15.720 is really not going to be enjoying how I'm treating 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.080 them if I'm still feeling that way about them. 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:20.760 So sometimes even knowing when to kind of call it. 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.800 Yeah is important rather than it's like sort of beating 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:25.679 a dead horse at times. 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:26.359 Yeah. 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:28.280 And it's interesting because it kind of reminds me of 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.960 the episode that we did before on Situationships, and you 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.199 spoke about getting really clear on kind of like the 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:38.120 goal or the expectation, And in a way, I feel 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:39.720 like you kind of have to get clear on what 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:43.240 is the outcome from this if I lean into forgiveness, you. 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:47.320 Know, yeah, yeah, and not knowing what that looks like 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:50.359 can be scary. So it's like, you know, if I 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:54.240 forgive this person, what will be different? Will we just 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:57.320 go back to how things were? And I think there's 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:00.879 such a bigger conversation around the forgiveness piece because I 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.320 can forgive, but that doesn't mean that there are now 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:07.040 not different things happening in this relationship in order to 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.800 repair And maybe it's highlighted. Maybe what happened highlighted some 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:13.600 dynamics that weren't working well that are going to need 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.040 to be different for us to continue and move forward 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:16.400 with this. 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:17.560 Yeah, definitely. 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:21.159 There was something that you mentioned before around like the 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.440 way in which we can potentially rush past the forgiveness 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:28.400 or just the way we process hurt. And it's interesting 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:30.920 because like some people rush to forgive and others avoid 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:35.320 it forever. Yeah, so what's the danger in literally kind 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:37.040 of throwing glitter on a pile of shit? 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:39.520 Oh yeah, look at it. Yeah. 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:41.840 I can think of a few couples that I, yeah, 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:46.199 have come in and it's like, yep, so my partner cheated. 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:48.640