WEBVTT - Sugar Baby

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a Mother of me A podcast. MoMA

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<v Speaker 1>Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters.

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<v Speaker 1>This podcast is recorded on age differences. Do they really

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<v Speaker 1>mean anything? You're only as old as the person you feel.

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<v Speaker 1>Age is but a number, etcetera, etcetera. It doesn't matter

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<v Speaker 1>when you're in love, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know how I would explain to people that

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<v Speaker 2>I had met him. I suppose I didn't give my

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<v Speaker 2>friends enough credit, and I worried that they would be

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<v Speaker 2>judgmental of his appearance and sort of ask me, what

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<v Speaker 2>are you doing why? You know, you're young, and you're

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<v Speaker 2>sort of in this peak of your life and you've

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<v Speaker 2>settled for a bit of a dorky old man.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Carlie. She'll be the first person to tell you

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<v Speaker 1>age doesn't mean a damned thing when you find your one.

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<v Speaker 1>But whether age is the problem or not, some love

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<v Speaker 1>stories just don't the way we plan.

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<v Speaker 2>So we just held each.

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<v Speaker 3>Other and I just told him how much I loved

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<v Speaker 3>him and how grateful I was that he had saved

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<v Speaker 3>my life.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Georgia Love and this is everyone has an ex

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<v Speaker 1>Come with me as we dive into a collection of

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<v Speaker 1>unconventional stories about relationships past through the eyes and the

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<v Speaker 1>hearts of the very people who lived them. Meet Carly.

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<v Speaker 1>Her story starts a little differently than others we've told you,

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<v Speaker 1>because at age thirty, Carly wasn't looking for someone at all.

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<v Speaker 1>She was out looking for fun, autonomy, and money.

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<v Speaker 2>So I suppose I ended up as a sugar baby

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<v Speaker 2>at age thirty quite unexpectedly. I suppose I had a

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<v Speaker 2>few incidents where I felt a bit like out of

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<v Speaker 2>control of my body. I'd lost a pregnancy and experienced

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<v Speaker 2>some other traumatic events where I felt like my body

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't my own. And I got into this mindset of

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<v Speaker 2>like I deserve to be paid for my body existing essentially,

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<v Speaker 2>And I discovered like the sugar baby sugar daddy world,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was like, this is great. Men can't treat

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<v Speaker 2>me like shit anymore because I'm in control. I'm getting

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<v Speaker 2>paid for my time and their experience. So it felt

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<v Speaker 2>really powerful. After probably a really rough eighteen months of

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<v Speaker 2>not having much body autonomy for quite some time, I

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<v Speaker 2>found out about it through a friend who said that

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<v Speaker 2>she had dabbled in the sugar baby industry. I think

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<v Speaker 2>I had always heard about it sort of on and

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<v Speaker 2>off terms of being thrown out. But I didn't know

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<v Speaker 2>how accessible it was to become a sugar baby, so

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<v Speaker 2>I just found a website online and signed up. The

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<v Speaker 2>basis of it is men paying you for your time

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<v Speaker 2>with them, so the dates I would go on would

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<v Speaker 2>look fastly different. So I had one client in particular,

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<v Speaker 2>like I'd just accompany him to his business dinners and

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<v Speaker 2>he'd buy me new clothes to wear or get my

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<v Speaker 2>makeup done, and I would spend the night at his

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<v Speaker 2>dinners with him, or like fundraising events. There were men

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<v Speaker 2>who just didn't want to be alone. I had one

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<v Speaker 2>client who had broken up with his girlfriend and just

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<v Speaker 2>paid me. He wanted to call me his ex girlfriend's

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<v Speaker 2>name and just hug me and paid me for that time.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was really different what every man is looking

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<v Speaker 2>for in the sugar baby sugar daddy world. I loved

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<v Speaker 2>how I felt like I got to have like this

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<v Speaker 2>secret life, like this secret world where I got to

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<v Speaker 2>meet all of these people and have lots of new experiences,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was exposed to worlds that I'd never normally

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<v Speaker 2>be exposed to, Like the line of work I do

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't come with fancy dinners or corporate events, and so

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<v Speaker 2>being exposed to those things was really fun for me.

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<v Speaker 2>The things that were the highs were like I suppose,

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<v Speaker 2>like unexpected generosity, like people who would just like shower

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<v Speaker 2>you with gifts that was sort of unexpected, or those

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<v Speaker 2>kinds of events. And the lows were people who would

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<v Speaker 2>just be really degrading, like I've paid for this time

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<v Speaker 2>with you, so we'll do whatever I want to do,

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<v Speaker 2>and didn't take any time to get to know me.

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<v Speaker 2>That was more just I won't see that person again.

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<v Speaker 2>I never thought I would do it long term, but

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<v Speaker 2>there were some really great clients too, like one named James.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd been doing it for roughly six months, and I

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<v Speaker 2>had been with a few who I had seen multiple times.

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<v Speaker 2>Some were just one off and it really varied. But

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<v Speaker 2>really immediately upon meeting James, I knew that was going

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<v Speaker 2>to be really different. He was just lovely. From the

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<v Speaker 2>first time we met. He was very awkward. He was

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<v Speaker 2>forty eight. He is very tall, quite dorky looking like

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<v Speaker 2>definitely not my type by any stretch of the imagination.

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<v Speaker 2>Really just looked like a middle age man. Yeah, definitely.

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<v Speaker 2>His height took me by surprise, like I came up

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<v Speaker 2>to his shoulders. We just went out for lunch, and

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<v Speaker 2>I remember him saying like, oh, you're never gonna want

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<v Speaker 2>to see me again after today, But I at that

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<v Speaker 2>point it was like, well, you paid me for my time,

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<v Speaker 2>and why wouldn't I I got lunch and five hundred dollars,

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<v Speaker 2>Like this is great, So I was like, no, of

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<v Speaker 2>course I'd happily see you again. He was very recently widowed.

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<v Speaker 2>He had lost his wife of twenty three years only

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<v Speaker 2>two months prior, so he was seeking company. For the

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<v Speaker 2>most part, on the first meeting, we didn't speak much

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<v Speaker 2>about his wife. But I remember the second meeting, We're

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<v Speaker 2>in a hotel room and was sort of just like

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<v Speaker 2>cuddling on the bed and he was telling me about her,

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<v Speaker 2>and I rolled away to not be facing him because

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<v Speaker 2>I was crying. I was just devastated for him, and

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<v Speaker 2>I remember thinking, this is horrendous, how can someone experience

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<v Speaker 2>such a loss in their life, and feeling so much

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<v Speaker 2>sadness for him as he spoke about her. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think that me having such a big reaction definitely led

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<v Speaker 2>to him wanting to continue the relationship because he knew

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<v Speaker 2>that I was more than just sort of surface deep,

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<v Speaker 2>like I really cared.

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<v Speaker 1>It surprised Carly how much hearing about James's wife affected her,

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<v Speaker 1>but she couldn't help feeling the injustice in it that

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<v Speaker 1>this lovely, kind man didn't deserve to lose such a

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<v Speaker 1>great love, and if he wanted her to, she was

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<v Speaker 1>very happy to be there to help him feel a

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<v Speaker 1>bit of comfort during such a sad time.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like an EmPATH through and through, so I feel

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<v Speaker 2>everyone's emotions that I'm around, So that's not strange for

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<v Speaker 2>me to feel what other people are feeling or feed

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<v Speaker 2>off other people's emotions. But I knew. I knew in

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<v Speaker 2>that moment how vulnerable he was and how much he

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<v Speaker 2>needed to be protected, and I just wanted I just

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to protect him straight away. He was just kind

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<v Speaker 2>and gentle and really genuine, and he wanted to get

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<v Speaker 2>to know me and what I wanted, and he was

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<v Speaker 2>interested in my career aspirations, and we had spoken about

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<v Speaker 2>like what UNI degree he had done thirty years prior

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<v Speaker 2>and things like that, So it wasn't just a man

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<v Speaker 2>sexualizing me because he thought that's what he had paid

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<v Speaker 2>for and that's what he was entitled to. It was

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<v Speaker 2>just a man who wanted to create a connection. We're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing each other weekly to begin with, the first few

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<v Speaker 2>months was probably weekly. I distinctly remember maybe like four

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<v Speaker 2>or five dates in and we would text a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>and I knew he was having a rough day and

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<v Speaker 2>he was quite upset about his late wife, and I

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<v Speaker 2>I text him one night saying can I give you

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<v Speaker 2>a call? And he texts back saying like, oh my god,

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<v Speaker 2>are you breaking up with me? And I said no, like,

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<v Speaker 2>I just I know you've had a really rough day

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<v Speaker 2>and I just want to talk. And from that point on,

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<v Speaker 2>I think we would spend three hours a day talking

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<v Speaker 2>on the phone every day. We would text all the

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<v Speaker 2>time when we were apart, and it was just lovely.

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<v Speaker 2>So when we had all this time together on the phone,

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<v Speaker 2>it was really different for me. So I had been

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<v Speaker 2>in a really long term relationship, which was a marriage

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<v Speaker 2>that had taken a really rocky turn when we had

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<v Speaker 2>lost our baby and we were grieving separately, I suppose,

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<v Speaker 2>and myself and my husband had always lived like a

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<v Speaker 2>very working class life, like we'd both worked full time

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<v Speaker 2>for as long as we'd been together, and all of

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<v Speaker 2>a sudden, I was seeing this retired man who me

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<v Speaker 2>calling him was his world. So he had unlimited time

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<v Speaker 2>for me, and I wasn't used to that because adult

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<v Speaker 2>relationships are so constrained by work pressure and life and

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<v Speaker 2>all of these other things that he didn't have. So

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<v Speaker 2>when his kids were at school during the day, he

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<v Speaker 2>was just constantly available to me, and that was something

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<v Speaker 2>I had never experienced before, just that availability. And any

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<v Speaker 2>time I wanted to talk to someone or needed to

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<v Speaker 2>talk to someone, I knew I could pick up the

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<v Speaker 2>phone and he'd be there anytime of the day. He

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<v Speaker 2>would just buy me so much jewelry, gorgeous jewelry, and

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<v Speaker 2>like we'd set prices for what he was going to

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<v Speaker 2>gift me in exchange for my time, and he'd always

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<v Speaker 2>give me like double what I had said I was expecting,

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<v Speaker 2>or throw in like vouchers or like a beautiful bracelet

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<v Speaker 2>one time. So he would just always go sort of

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<v Speaker 2>above and beyond. It made me feel really valued, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>just valued. Maybe By the fifth time I saw him,

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<v Speaker 2>I remember thinking to myself, like, this is as good

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<v Speaker 2>as it gets in this world. So you're not like

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to try anymore, I'm not going to

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<v Speaker 2>go on any more dates, because like, I've reached the

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<v Speaker 2>peak of what happens in the sugar baby world. In

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<v Speaker 2>my thought processes, I thought, I've reached a peak here,

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<v Speaker 2>like this is as good as it gets. I have

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<v Speaker 2>been so showered with like generosity and love and gifts

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<v Speaker 2>and affection I can't go back to like the tire

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<v Speaker 2>kickers of the community. Like so, I made a decision

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<v Speaker 2>pretty early on that he was going to be my

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<v Speaker 2>last ever client.

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<v Speaker 1>It didn't take long for both of them to realize

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<v Speaker 1>this was more than just a client worker relationship. Yes

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<v Speaker 1>he was paying her, but a genuine connection group for him.

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<v Speaker 2>Quite early on, he was telling me that he loved me,

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<v Speaker 2>probably within four weeks of meeting. And then he'd get

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<v Speaker 2>confused and he'd say, I've got all of these feelings

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<v Speaker 2>of love for my late wife and they've got nowhere

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<v Speaker 2>to go anymore so and probably just thinking they belong

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<v Speaker 2>to you when they don't. But he'd say he loved me,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think we'd been seeing each other for like

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<v Speaker 2>six weeks when he asked how I wanted to be

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<v Speaker 2>proposed to, and then he sent me a message like sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't mean to accidentally propose, like I don't even

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<v Speaker 2>think I want to get married again. But he was

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<v Speaker 2>just he was overwhelmed in his own feelings as well,

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<v Speaker 2>so he would tell me he loved me, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think after about two months I told him that I

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<v Speaker 2>loved him too. We started having discussions about what the

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<v Speaker 2>future would look like because it was really clear that

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<v Speaker 2>above all else, we had this really great, genuine friendship

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<v Speaker 2>that we both wanted to protect it all costs. So

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<v Speaker 2>he had a conversation with me one day where he

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<v Speaker 2>was like, look, I really want to keep seeing you,

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<v Speaker 2>but this isn't financially viable and it's not smart, and

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<v Speaker 2>I've got kids to think of, and like, I can't

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<v Speaker 2>keep paying you the way I have been, And he

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<v Speaker 2>was extraordinarily generous for my time. And that's where we

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<v Speaker 2>started having conversations about what the future would look like

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<v Speaker 2>if we moved away from sort of like a client

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<v Speaker 2>based relationship where money wasn't being exchanged for spending time together.

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<v Speaker 2>So they did it really just it happened. There was

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<v Speaker 2>a few big hurdles that we needed to face, Like

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<v Speaker 2>up until then all of our meetings had taken place

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<v Speaker 2>in hotels, and he had I mean, I say kids

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<v Speaker 2>one of them was an adult, one was an adolescent.

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<v Speaker 2>Two kids he needed to protect in that space as well,

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<v Speaker 2>And he was really mindful of not mixing me with

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<v Speaker 2>his family because his wife had only been deceased for

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<v Speaker 2>a few months at that point and the kids had

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<v Speaker 2>lost their mum. So he was really respectful of not

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<v Speaker 2>wanting me in that space just yet. So we had

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<v Speaker 2>a few sort of teething issues about how we were

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<v Speaker 2>going to work this hour. We also lived an hour

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<v Speaker 2>and a half away from each so it wasn't simple

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<v Speaker 2>geographically to work out how we're going to do this either.

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<v Speaker 2>Not meeting his family in the early stages felt really appropriate.

0:13:24.210 --> 0:13:27.610
<v Speaker 2>It's very different to his experience. But I was a

0:13:27.690 --> 0:13:30.450
<v Speaker 2>child of divorce, so I do understand the pressures that

0:13:30.490 --> 0:13:35.250
<v Speaker 2>adults face of their children meeting new partners. And that's

0:13:35.250 --> 0:13:39.050
<v Speaker 2>definitely not to compare a divorce to someone passing away,

0:13:39.730 --> 0:13:42.650
<v Speaker 2>but I did understand, like being a child of divorce,

0:13:42.890 --> 0:13:46.050
<v Speaker 2>that parents have a lot of pressure to not introduce

0:13:46.210 --> 0:13:49.890
<v Speaker 2>new partners to their kids really quickly. And I mean,

0:13:49.970 --> 0:13:52.650
<v Speaker 2>on a side note, I'm also terrified of teenage girls.

0:13:52.690 --> 0:13:56.770
<v Speaker 2>I think they're just the scariest breed of human possible,

0:13:56.890 --> 0:14:01.530
<v Speaker 2>so not meeting his daughter that sat quite well with

0:14:01.570 --> 0:14:03.930
<v Speaker 2>me for a while. I just thought, oh my god,

0:14:03.970 --> 0:14:07.370
<v Speaker 2>she's going to tear shreds off me. Like yeah, I

0:14:07.850 --> 0:14:11.170
<v Speaker 2>was okay with not meeting for a while. I think

0:14:11.210 --> 0:14:13.930
<v Speaker 2>I ended up up going to his house for the

0:14:13.970 --> 0:14:16.130
<v Speaker 2>first time. So we'd met in the May, and I

0:14:16.170 --> 0:14:17.610
<v Speaker 2>think I went to his house for the first time

0:14:17.650 --> 0:14:20.090
<v Speaker 2>in the July. So I remember going to his house

0:14:20.130 --> 0:14:23.490
<v Speaker 2>for the first time. No one else was home at

0:14:23.490 --> 0:14:26.250
<v Speaker 2>the time, so there was one day a week where

0:14:26.930 --> 0:14:29.090
<v Speaker 2>one of his children was at work and one of

0:14:29.090 --> 0:14:31.170
<v Speaker 2>his children was at school, so we sort of had

0:14:31.210 --> 0:14:34.490
<v Speaker 2>a few hours where I could go over and spend

0:14:34.530 --> 0:14:37.570
<v Speaker 2>some time there. And that for me was a really

0:14:37.610 --> 0:14:42.450
<v Speaker 2>emotional experience because it was walking into a family home

0:14:42.490 --> 0:14:46.010
<v Speaker 2>but knowing that the family had been broken. It felt

0:14:46.010 --> 0:14:51.730
<v Speaker 2>really sad. It felt like I could feel the love

0:14:52.610 --> 0:14:55.890
<v Speaker 2>for this wife and mother who they had lost. And

0:14:56.090 --> 0:14:59.250
<v Speaker 2>the house was as warm and homely as you like.

0:14:59.290 --> 0:15:01.490
<v Speaker 2>You could tell there was like that woman's touch in

0:15:01.530 --> 0:15:03.650
<v Speaker 2>the house and that she had set it up beautifully,

0:15:03.690 --> 0:15:07.130
<v Speaker 2>and there was lots of memories of her, lots of

0:15:07.170 --> 0:15:10.410
<v Speaker 2>photos of her around the house and even on the

0:15:10.850 --> 0:15:13.890
<v Speaker 2>kitchen table for for months. In this lasted months after

0:15:14.970 --> 0:15:18.690
<v Speaker 2>the first meeting, was still like the pamphlets left over

0:15:18.730 --> 0:15:22.170
<v Speaker 2>from her funeral, and there was sort of arrangements from

0:15:22.410 --> 0:15:27.210
<v Speaker 2>the funeral home that obviously he was unable to deal

0:15:27.250 --> 0:15:28.810
<v Speaker 2>with at the time, so he just left them on

0:15:28.850 --> 0:15:32.290
<v Speaker 2>the kitchen table and I would see them all the

0:15:32.330 --> 0:15:36.130
<v Speaker 2>time and just yeah, not know what to do with that.

0:15:37.090 --> 0:15:43.530
<v Speaker 2>It made me feel guilty, probably because there was so

0:15:43.850 --> 0:15:46.890
<v Speaker 2>much that he was showing me of his world, and

0:15:47.570 --> 0:15:50.690
<v Speaker 2>I felt like, because of the way we met, we

0:15:50.730 --> 0:15:53.490
<v Speaker 2>were both going to have these ideas of each other

0:15:54.210 --> 0:15:57.810
<v Speaker 2>and who each other were that we couldn't take back, but.

0:15:57.810 --> 0:16:00.770
<v Speaker 1>They couldn't deny what they had. And feeling this in

0:16:00.850 --> 0:16:03.370
<v Speaker 1>James's home and him choosing to share it all with

0:16:03.450 --> 0:16:05.850
<v Speaker 1>her only made Carly four for him more.

0:16:07.610 --> 0:16:12.530
<v Speaker 2>Maybe six months in things had settled and that we're

0:16:12.570 --> 0:16:16.530
<v Speaker 2>in a bit of a routine. There wasn't We'd got

0:16:16.530 --> 0:16:21.050
<v Speaker 2>to know each other well enough, I think by that stage,

0:16:21.210 --> 0:16:27.090
<v Speaker 2>and things were just feeling really settled. I just knew

0:16:27.090 --> 0:16:30.530
<v Speaker 2>that every time I saw him, I felt so safe

0:16:30.610 --> 0:16:35.610
<v Speaker 2>and so contained. He provided this safety. My life has

0:16:35.650 --> 0:16:39.290
<v Speaker 2>always felt chaotic, like I just feel internal chaos all

0:16:39.330 --> 0:16:41.330
<v Speaker 2>the time. That's just sort of who I am as

0:16:41.330 --> 0:16:45.090
<v Speaker 2>a person. But being around him, he just calmed me.

0:16:45.170 --> 0:16:49.010
<v Speaker 2>He contained me in a way i'd never been I'd

0:16:49.010 --> 0:16:52.490
<v Speaker 2>never felt that safe before. I suppose I had like

0:16:52.530 --> 0:16:56.810
<v Speaker 2>a pretty deep wound of feeling unloved by men. My

0:16:56.930 --> 0:16:59.170
<v Speaker 2>father had taken his own life, and I had this

0:17:00.170 --> 0:17:04.170
<v Speaker 2>gaping hole of feeling unloved, like feeling like people love

0:17:04.250 --> 0:17:10.770
<v Speaker 2>me out of necessity. But I think having this relationship

0:17:10.810 --> 0:17:15.290
<v Speaker 2>with an older man and was very healing for a

0:17:15.290 --> 0:17:18.130
<v Speaker 2>lot of those wounds, Like I, you know, like the

0:17:18.170 --> 0:17:21.530
<v Speaker 2>sugar baby with classic daddy issues was really coming out.

0:17:21.690 --> 0:17:25.490
<v Speaker 2>It was like, Okay, I felt really abandoned by a parent,

0:17:25.570 --> 0:17:28.410
<v Speaker 2>and now I was desperate for this older man to

0:17:29.290 --> 0:17:32.610
<v Speaker 2>love me and to make that feel good. And he did.

0:17:32.890 --> 0:17:36.370
<v Speaker 2>He made that all feel those holes were just getting

0:17:36.370 --> 0:17:37.650
<v Speaker 2>filled up by him.

0:17:38.050 --> 0:17:40.370
<v Speaker 1>There was no doubt there was a lot of love there.

0:17:40.690 --> 0:17:43.210
<v Speaker 1>But when two people from such different lives meet in

0:17:43.250 --> 0:17:45.290
<v Speaker 1>such a way, it wasn't all rosy.

0:17:45.970 --> 0:17:50.090
<v Speaker 2>The first six months of our relationship was marked by

0:17:50.570 --> 0:17:57.090
<v Speaker 2>pretty extreme feelings of jealousy from both parties. So I

0:17:57.170 --> 0:18:01.730
<v Speaker 2>don't think he believed or accepted that I loved him

0:18:02.050 --> 0:18:05.410
<v Speaker 2>He struggled with that, and he would struggle with who

0:18:05.490 --> 0:18:07.850
<v Speaker 2>was texting me or you know. We got into this

0:18:07.970 --> 0:18:10.010
<v Speaker 2>huge fight once about me saying I was going to

0:18:10.050 --> 0:18:12.970
<v Speaker 2>the gym with this ill friend of mine, and he

0:18:13.330 --> 0:18:16.090
<v Speaker 2>hung up the phone heid you know, text me it's over,

0:18:16.450 --> 0:18:19.490
<v Speaker 2>like I can't deal with this, and I suppose I

0:18:19.530 --> 0:18:22.570
<v Speaker 2>lived with I don't know what the feeling of jealousy

0:18:22.650 --> 0:18:25.250
<v Speaker 2>is called, when you're jealous over someone who you can't

0:18:25.290 --> 0:18:28.370
<v Speaker 2>compete with, but I definitely felt like I was often

0:18:28.410 --> 0:18:33.130
<v Speaker 2>being compared to his late wife, and I would say, like,

0:18:33.250 --> 0:18:35.370
<v Speaker 2>you have to choose me for me because I can't

0:18:35.410 --> 0:18:39.130
<v Speaker 2>be her, and all the things that make me me

0:18:40.090 --> 0:18:43.250
<v Speaker 2>I can't take back. So my marriage had always been

0:18:43.250 --> 0:18:45.850
<v Speaker 2>a really open marriage. My husband and I had always

0:18:45.890 --> 0:18:49.250
<v Speaker 2>dated other people, and my life had been really sort

0:18:49.250 --> 0:18:53.370
<v Speaker 2>of like fun and free. And he was like, well,

0:18:54.370 --> 0:18:56.530
<v Speaker 2>I don't understand that, because if you were in love

0:18:56.570 --> 0:18:58.250
<v Speaker 2>with your husband the way I was with my wife,

0:18:58.290 --> 0:19:01.450
<v Speaker 2>like I never thought about anyone else. So he didn't

0:19:01.490 --> 0:19:05.370
<v Speaker 2>understand that, and he couldn't understand that I was making

0:19:05.450 --> 0:19:09.930
<v Speaker 2>him a promise to say that was an arrangement in

0:19:09.970 --> 0:19:13.690
<v Speaker 2>my marriage between two out of all who agreed to that,

0:19:14.490 --> 0:19:17.450
<v Speaker 2>and now we're two adults who agree to something different.

0:19:18.570 --> 0:19:20.450
<v Speaker 2>So he would always sort of say, you can't just

0:19:20.570 --> 0:19:24.090
<v Speaker 2>have one person, you always need more, And it was

0:19:24.130 --> 0:19:27.770
<v Speaker 2>hard for him to believe that he was the center

0:19:27.810 --> 0:19:30.850
<v Speaker 2>of my world. By that stage, I felt like I

0:19:30.850 --> 0:19:35.290
<v Speaker 2>couldn't escape my past, and I felt like I was

0:19:35.370 --> 0:19:39.130
<v Speaker 2>having to hold shame for how we met. But we

0:19:39.170 --> 0:19:42.530
<v Speaker 2>met because we were both mutually on the same website, right,

0:19:42.570 --> 0:19:45.290
<v Speaker 2>So like it was bizarre that somehow I was the

0:19:45.370 --> 0:19:47.410
<v Speaker 2>bad guy for being on that site, but he was

0:19:47.450 --> 0:19:51.810
<v Speaker 2>like the innocent bystander and just sort of refuted his

0:19:51.970 --> 0:19:56.290
<v Speaker 2>responsibility in being on that website as well. I didn't

0:19:56.290 --> 0:20:00.730
<v Speaker 2>share much of my life with him for probably eight

0:20:00.890 --> 0:20:04.930
<v Speaker 2>or so months before he met friends of mine. I

0:20:04.970 --> 0:20:11.170
<v Speaker 2>think there was an element of probably not knowing how

0:20:11.170 --> 0:20:15.810
<v Speaker 2>to explain to people the relationship. I was scared of

0:20:15.890 --> 0:20:20.530
<v Speaker 2>judgment because just based on looks, there was quite apparent

0:20:20.570 --> 0:20:24.170
<v Speaker 2>differences in our life. He was seventeen years older than

0:20:24.210 --> 0:20:27.650
<v Speaker 2>I was, so it was apparent to look at us

0:20:27.690 --> 0:20:32.810
<v Speaker 2>that were in different stages of our life. I didn't

0:20:32.810 --> 0:20:35.970
<v Speaker 2>know how I would explain to people that I had

0:20:36.050 --> 0:20:40.210
<v Speaker 2>met him. I suppose I didn't give my friends enough credit,

0:20:40.210 --> 0:20:42.650
<v Speaker 2>and I worried that they would be judgmental of his

0:20:42.730 --> 0:20:46.490
<v Speaker 2>appearance and sort of ask me, what are you doing,

0:20:46.810 --> 0:20:50.250
<v Speaker 2>Like why you know, you're young, and you're sort of

0:20:50.250 --> 0:20:52.490
<v Speaker 2>in this peak of your life and you've settled for

0:20:52.570 --> 0:20:55.610
<v Speaker 2>a bit of a dorky old man, and just I

0:20:55.610 --> 0:20:59.610
<v Speaker 2>suppose the way I had always met different people, it

0:20:59.730 --> 0:21:05.090
<v Speaker 2>was different to that. He self admit that he didn't

0:21:05.130 --> 0:21:07.850
<v Speaker 2>have many friends, Like his relationship with his wife, they

0:21:07.930 --> 0:21:10.290
<v Speaker 2>just lived in this love bubble where he just said

0:21:10.610 --> 0:21:12.650
<v Speaker 2>he didn't really have friends, she didn't, and they just

0:21:12.810 --> 0:21:15.930
<v Speaker 2>all they needed was each other. And I had a

0:21:16.050 --> 0:21:23.170
<v Speaker 2>huge friendship network. And he had also faced really significant

0:21:23.570 --> 0:21:28.850
<v Speaker 2>health problems his whole life, and so his twenties and

0:21:28.890 --> 0:21:31.850
<v Speaker 2>thirties looked really different to what mine did. His was

0:21:32.370 --> 0:21:35.410
<v Speaker 2>faced with sort of like constant hospitalizations, whereas I was

0:21:35.650 --> 0:21:38.650
<v Speaker 2>sort of really healthy and young and free and got

0:21:38.690 --> 0:21:40.570
<v Speaker 2>to go out with friends and do whatever I wanted.

0:21:40.650 --> 0:21:46.410
<v Speaker 2>So he wasn't exposed to the same world I was. Like.

0:21:46.450 --> 0:21:49.570
<v Speaker 2>I remember one day, out of the blue, he just

0:21:49.570 --> 0:21:52.410
<v Speaker 2>sent me a text message saying, is sex better on cocaine?

0:21:53.410 --> 0:21:57.090
<v Speaker 2>She just had never experienced these things like he didn't

0:21:57.130 --> 0:22:00.650
<v Speaker 2>drink alcohol at all, and he had never experimented with drugs,

0:22:00.690 --> 0:22:06.010
<v Speaker 2>and he just had this really sheltered life in some elements,

0:22:06.770 --> 0:22:11.570
<v Speaker 2>like of course his massive health stuff. He wasn't sheltered

0:22:11.690 --> 0:22:15.450
<v Speaker 2>from that, but he had never experienced his twenties and

0:22:15.490 --> 0:22:19.050
<v Speaker 2>thirties in the way I was. I think that he

0:22:19.130 --> 0:22:21.490
<v Speaker 2>would look at my life and sometimes he'd be like,

0:22:21.930 --> 0:22:24.930
<v Speaker 2>I can't believe you do these things. Like one time

0:22:24.970 --> 0:22:27.250
<v Speaker 2>we met up. It was one of my friend's birthdays,

0:22:27.290 --> 0:22:30.490
<v Speaker 2>and I was really reluctant to invite him, but I

0:22:30.490 --> 0:22:34.290
<v Speaker 2>also really wanted him to meet my friends. But unfortunately,

0:22:34.330 --> 0:22:36.170
<v Speaker 2>by the time he got there and I had way

0:22:36.210 --> 0:22:40.050
<v Speaker 2>too much to drink and ended up vomiting. And that

0:22:40.210 --> 0:22:43.210
<v Speaker 2>was like a first time for him of like experiencing

0:22:43.250 --> 0:22:46.050
<v Speaker 2>like going to a pub and like, oh, you're with

0:22:46.090 --> 0:22:48.090
<v Speaker 2>your girlfriend who you've got so drunk, she's vomited in

0:22:48.090 --> 0:22:51.810
<v Speaker 2>her hair. Like he just hadn't had those experiences before,

0:22:51.850 --> 0:22:55.730
<v Speaker 2>so it was new to him. And I think that

0:22:55.890 --> 0:22:57.370
<v Speaker 2>even though he was like, well that was a waste

0:22:57.370 --> 0:23:00.250
<v Speaker 2>of money, like why do I get Huber's there and back? Like,

0:23:00.530 --> 0:23:01.730
<v Speaker 2>I think he had fun.

0:23:02.410 --> 0:23:04.890
<v Speaker 1>Apart from the old pub night here and there it

0:23:04.970 --> 0:23:07.130
<v Speaker 1>was really just the two of them embarking on this

0:23:07.210 --> 0:23:10.530
<v Speaker 1>relationship for no one else but themselves and working out

0:23:10.610 --> 0:23:13.210
<v Speaker 1>if or how they could make it work long term.

0:23:14.050 --> 0:23:17.050
<v Speaker 2>We knew from a really early stage that what I

0:23:17.210 --> 0:23:19.850
<v Speaker 2>really wanted and craved was children, and I wanted to

0:23:19.890 --> 0:23:25.050
<v Speaker 2>have a baby, And when he was in the chaotic

0:23:26.490 --> 0:23:29.170
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to be alone desperate stage of grief,

0:23:29.210 --> 0:23:31.410
<v Speaker 2>he was like, yep, I'll give that to you, like

0:23:32.330 --> 0:23:35.210
<v Speaker 2>of course, like we'd talk about babies names, and he

0:23:35.330 --> 0:23:37.490
<v Speaker 2>was like. We met at a cafe once and he

0:23:37.530 --> 0:23:40.610
<v Speaker 2>said I'm all in, Like whatever you want, I'm one

0:23:40.650 --> 0:23:44.330
<v Speaker 2>hundred percent in. And I was like, oh my god,

0:23:44.530 --> 0:23:47.730
<v Speaker 2>like he's all in with me, like I can get

0:23:47.890 --> 0:23:53.530
<v Speaker 2>this entire life with him. And then over time, as

0:23:53.570 --> 0:23:57.410
<v Speaker 2>he waded through the grief he was feeling, he sort

0:23:57.410 --> 0:23:59.410
<v Speaker 2>of came to me and he said, look, I'm actually

0:23:59.770 --> 0:24:02.730
<v Speaker 2>never going to have a baby with you, and I

0:24:02.730 --> 0:24:07.530
<v Speaker 2>don't want to get remarried. I didn't take him seriously

0:24:07.570 --> 0:24:10.170
<v Speaker 2>for quite some time, and it was always a conversation

0:24:10.290 --> 0:24:12.650
<v Speaker 2>we'd have and then we'd put it away. We'd just

0:24:12.690 --> 0:24:16.010
<v Speaker 2>sort of very much sweep it under the rug, like okay, well,

0:24:16.010 --> 0:24:19.410
<v Speaker 2>that's not a today issue anyway, We've got time. We

0:24:19.450 --> 0:24:21.170
<v Speaker 2>don't need to work this all out now, you know

0:24:21.530 --> 0:24:24.170
<v Speaker 2>what couple plants having kids in the first twelve months anyway,

0:24:24.330 --> 0:24:28.490
<v Speaker 2>kind of think. So that sort of where things were

0:24:28.530 --> 0:24:32.730
<v Speaker 2>at where I think we're both hoping the other person

0:24:32.730 --> 0:24:39.530
<v Speaker 2>would negotiate, and he would he would come up with suggestions,

0:24:39.530 --> 0:24:41.650
<v Speaker 2>I suppose, like he'd be like, why don't you use

0:24:41.690 --> 0:24:44.290
<v Speaker 2>a sperm downer? And then the baby's not technically mine,

0:24:44.370 --> 0:24:47.490
<v Speaker 2>but I'd still help you raise it. But it was

0:24:47.610 --> 0:24:50.650
<v Speaker 2>just that he wasn't prepared to have another baby because

0:24:50.650 --> 0:24:53.890
<v Speaker 2>there was lots of milestones in life he didn't want

0:24:53.890 --> 0:24:56.330
<v Speaker 2>to experience with another woman like he had them with

0:24:56.410 --> 0:24:59.570
<v Speaker 2>his wife, and he had a sense of loyalty to

0:24:59.650 --> 0:25:04.290
<v Speaker 2>not doing them again. And also his age was a factor.

0:25:04.330 --> 0:25:07.010
<v Speaker 2>He said, my kids have grown like I've nearly done

0:25:07.050 --> 0:25:09.770
<v Speaker 2>my job as a parent. He's only got a couple

0:25:09.770 --> 0:25:11.890
<v Speaker 2>of years left with his youngest, and he said, I'm

0:25:11.930 --> 0:25:15.850
<v Speaker 2>not doing that. I'm not starting from scratch, Like I'm

0:25:15.850 --> 0:25:17.650
<v Speaker 2>not young enough and I'm not fit enough, and i

0:25:17.690 --> 0:25:19.650
<v Speaker 2>don't have it in me to be awake all night

0:25:19.650 --> 0:25:24.370
<v Speaker 2>with a crying baby. So yeah, it was It was

0:25:24.490 --> 0:25:27.410
<v Speaker 2>just a long time of both of us trying to

0:25:27.770 --> 0:25:30.370
<v Speaker 2>negotiate and hope that the other would change their mind.

0:25:31.650 --> 0:25:34.210
<v Speaker 2>I was convinced I could change his mind for a

0:25:34.250 --> 0:25:38.170
<v Speaker 2>really long time. I thought, no, like, you're going to

0:25:38.210 --> 0:25:41.690
<v Speaker 2>love me enough to want all of this with me.

0:25:42.770 --> 0:25:45.010
<v Speaker 1>And he really did love her. They wouldn't go a

0:25:45.090 --> 0:25:48.050
<v Speaker 1>day without speaking, and soon enough without seeing each other,

0:25:48.370 --> 0:25:51.330
<v Speaker 1>which of course at a point meant also meeting his kids.

0:25:51.570 --> 0:25:54.570
<v Speaker 2>But I met them, probably by the August. I think

0:25:54.610 --> 0:25:57.330
<v Speaker 2>he introduced the idea to his kids as like I

0:25:57.370 --> 0:26:02.530
<v Speaker 2>was just a nice friend, and they were so gracious

0:26:02.770 --> 0:26:06.490
<v Speaker 2>in meeting me. They were lovely. I was very lucky

0:26:07.650 --> 0:26:10.330
<v Speaker 2>in that space. I mean I was. We would always

0:26:10.410 --> 0:26:13.170
<v Speaker 2>joke because I was actually closer in age to his

0:26:13.250 --> 0:26:17.690
<v Speaker 2>son than I was to him. But yeah, his kids

0:26:17.730 --> 0:26:22.650
<v Speaker 2>were really accepting of me. I think they knew, probably

0:26:22.690 --> 0:26:26.530
<v Speaker 2>not straight away, but over time they became aware that

0:26:26.730 --> 0:26:29.730
<v Speaker 2>we really cared for each other and that we were

0:26:29.770 --> 0:26:33.850
<v Speaker 2>sort of in a relationship. I remember I felt like

0:26:34.730 --> 0:26:36.650
<v Speaker 2>in my mind, I was like, it's too soon. But

0:26:36.730 --> 0:26:39.290
<v Speaker 2>who was I to tell him what decisions to make

0:26:39.330 --> 0:26:41.090
<v Speaker 2>with his own children. I was like, oh my god,

0:26:41.330 --> 0:26:43.650
<v Speaker 2>Like he'd text me one day and he said, like,

0:26:43.690 --> 0:26:46.970
<v Speaker 2>I told my kids about you today, and I was like, WHOA,

0:26:47.370 --> 0:26:52.090
<v Speaker 2>Like what do you mean? You know this is wild, but.

0:26:52.050 --> 0:26:54.690
<v Speaker 1>There was still something holding him back from bringing her

0:26:54.690 --> 0:26:57.810
<v Speaker 1>into his life one hundred percent. It was pretty obvious

0:26:57.850 --> 0:26:59.010
<v Speaker 1>to see the elephant in the room.

0:26:59.570 --> 0:27:03.330
<v Speaker 2>I always felt a bit like an impostor in his

0:27:03.450 --> 0:27:07.210
<v Speaker 2>life because I knew I wasn't the person he wanted there.

0:27:07.490 --> 0:27:10.970
<v Speaker 2>So I always sat with that knowledge that he would,

0:27:11.770 --> 0:27:14.330
<v Speaker 2>you know, like kick me out the door in an

0:27:14.370 --> 0:27:17.010
<v Speaker 2>instant if he could get the person back he wanted

0:27:17.330 --> 0:27:21.490
<v Speaker 2>in that room with him. I grew to live with that,

0:27:21.650 --> 0:27:24.770
<v Speaker 2>and I grew to know that that was the all

0:27:24.810 --> 0:27:27.330
<v Speaker 2>I could ask of him. I couldn't ask of him

0:27:27.810 --> 0:27:30.930
<v Speaker 2>to reassure me that he would pick me over her

0:27:31.290 --> 0:27:33.890
<v Speaker 2>or anything like that, because that was so unreasonable. So

0:27:33.970 --> 0:27:38.050
<v Speaker 2>I just had to accept my space in his life

0:27:38.090 --> 0:27:40.490
<v Speaker 2>and that was all he could offer me. But it

0:27:40.530 --> 0:27:44.530
<v Speaker 2>was hard because for me, he was everything. He had

0:27:44.650 --> 0:27:48.930
<v Speaker 2>a milestone birthday, his fiftieth birthday, and he was sort

0:27:48.930 --> 0:27:52.170
<v Speaker 2>of planning it and he made a comment like, oh,

0:27:52.290 --> 0:27:55.770
<v Speaker 2>you might be invited, and I laughed, and I thought,

0:27:56.370 --> 0:27:58.930
<v Speaker 2>this man is joking. What do you mean I might

0:27:58.970 --> 0:28:01.050
<v Speaker 2>be invited, and I thought he was being a bit silly,

0:28:01.130 --> 0:28:04.450
<v Speaker 2>and then his son sort of like chuckled nervously, and

0:28:04.490 --> 0:28:07.290
<v Speaker 2>I was like, are you serious, And he just said, like,

0:28:07.650 --> 0:28:10.290
<v Speaker 2>I just don't know if I can face the judgment

0:28:10.850 --> 0:28:15.690
<v Speaker 2>from all of my friends to know that I've partnered. Yeah,

0:28:15.730 --> 0:28:18.850
<v Speaker 2>I'd always been very understanding and very respectful of my

0:28:18.970 --> 0:28:23.290
<v Speaker 2>place in his life. But I was devastated, Like I thought,

0:28:23.730 --> 0:28:26.450
<v Speaker 2>how can you not invite me? So he did end

0:28:26.530 --> 0:28:31.010
<v Speaker 2>up inviting me, and I went to his fiftieth birthday

0:28:31.050 --> 0:28:34.410
<v Speaker 2>and met all of his family and all of his friends.

0:28:34.770 --> 0:28:39.250
<v Speaker 2>I was just introduced as Carli. I wasn't introduced as

0:28:39.730 --> 0:28:42.410
<v Speaker 2>like this is my girlfriend or my friend. He just

0:28:42.730 --> 0:28:44.970
<v Speaker 2>introduced me by name, and that was all there was

0:28:45.010 --> 0:28:45.330
<v Speaker 2>to it.

0:28:47.330 --> 0:28:50.290
<v Speaker 1>James also never fully committed to have Carly move in

0:28:50.330 --> 0:28:52.970
<v Speaker 1>with him, not even after more than a year together.

0:28:53.490 --> 0:28:55.770
<v Speaker 2>In the early days, he was like, just pack up

0:28:55.850 --> 0:28:59.890
<v Speaker 2>and move on in and I was like, no, that's

0:29:00.570 --> 0:29:04.010
<v Speaker 2>not reasonable. And then after about twelve months he was

0:29:04.010 --> 0:29:05.770
<v Speaker 2>sort of like, I don't actually know if I'll ever

0:29:05.810 --> 0:29:08.970
<v Speaker 2>want to live with you, but I have. He owned

0:29:09.090 --> 0:29:12.930
<v Speaker 2>multiple properties and he said I've got this one property

0:29:12.970 --> 0:29:15.490
<v Speaker 2>it's really local, and I'll let you live in it

0:29:15.570 --> 0:29:17.290
<v Speaker 2>and you can just pay two hundred dollars a week

0:29:17.370 --> 0:29:21.090
<v Speaker 2>rent so we can live near each other. And I'm

0:29:21.130 --> 0:29:23.850
<v Speaker 2>self employed for work and all of my clients and

0:29:23.890 --> 0:29:27.330
<v Speaker 2>my work is really close to home. And I said, well,

0:29:27.370 --> 0:29:30.890
<v Speaker 2>that means giving up all of my clients, and I'm

0:29:30.930 --> 0:29:34.450
<v Speaker 2>giving up living in the same sort of regional part

0:29:34.490 --> 0:29:37.090
<v Speaker 2>of town as all my family and all my friends

0:29:37.290 --> 0:29:40.650
<v Speaker 2>to live alone in one of your units, but not

0:29:40.810 --> 0:29:45.170
<v Speaker 2>with you. So I was like, no, thank you, you know, respectfully, no,

0:29:46.170 --> 0:29:47.730
<v Speaker 2>you know, And I know that that was him trying

0:29:47.730 --> 0:29:51.650
<v Speaker 2>to compromise, but I don't think he saw the bigger

0:29:51.690 --> 0:29:53.810
<v Speaker 2>picture that I wasn't moving an hour and a half

0:29:53.850 --> 0:29:55.090
<v Speaker 2>away to live by myself.

0:29:55.810 --> 0:29:58.930
<v Speaker 1>Carlie understood the intricacies of the relationship they were in.

0:29:59.210 --> 0:30:01.210
<v Speaker 1>She knew it wasn't cut and dry and was never

0:30:01.250 --> 0:30:03.290
<v Speaker 1>going to be as simple as meeting someone her own

0:30:03.330 --> 0:30:06.650
<v Speaker 1>age who hadn't recently lost someone. But she knew they

0:30:06.650 --> 0:30:10.170
<v Speaker 1>were deeply in love. If she could be patient and understanding,

0:30:10.250 --> 0:30:13.010
<v Speaker 1>so would he. He was her future and she is.

0:30:13.930 --> 0:30:17.970
<v Speaker 2>The baby conversation had been one that was ongoing, and

0:30:18.050 --> 0:30:24.090
<v Speaker 2>another conversation that wasn't ongoing, but just for context, was

0:30:24.090 --> 0:30:29.690
<v Speaker 2>that he is a multi millionaire and has a very

0:30:29.890 --> 0:30:33.730
<v Speaker 2>vast property portfolio and sort of lives just off the

0:30:33.850 --> 0:30:37.330
<v Speaker 2>interest of his investments. He doesn't need to earn money,

0:30:37.370 --> 0:30:40.450
<v Speaker 2>and he lives a very comfortable life. And he had

0:30:40.490 --> 0:30:45.250
<v Speaker 2>always said to me from the start that that money

0:30:45.370 --> 0:30:48.050
<v Speaker 2>was for his children and that no matter who he

0:30:48.210 --> 0:30:51.090
<v Speaker 2>ended up partnered with or in a relationship with like

0:30:51.490 --> 0:30:55.330
<v Speaker 2>that money would be protected from any partner in the future.

0:30:55.930 --> 0:30:59.410
<v Speaker 2>And he was always very clear about that as well.

0:31:00.730 --> 0:31:06.050
<v Speaker 2>And so it got to a point where I probably

0:31:06.050 --> 0:31:08.370
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't have done this, but I had sent him a

0:31:08.370 --> 0:31:11.490
<v Speaker 2>screenshot of like a period tracking app saying my p

0:31:12.010 --> 0:31:15.170
<v Speaker 2>was one day late, and I sort of jokingly said like,

0:31:15.450 --> 0:31:18.770
<v Speaker 2>oh god, what have you done? And he just went

0:31:18.810 --> 0:31:25.410
<v Speaker 2>straight into panic mode. He called me and is like, well,

0:31:25.450 --> 0:31:28.450
<v Speaker 2>what are you going to do? And then he accused

0:31:28.450 --> 0:31:30.570
<v Speaker 2>me of sort of like baby trapping him into this,

0:31:31.090 --> 0:31:35.450
<v Speaker 2>into having a baby, and he said, I'm going to

0:31:35.570 --> 0:31:40.090
<v Speaker 2>put all of my assets into the trusts that are

0:31:40.090 --> 0:31:42.650
<v Speaker 2>in my kids' names, and you're the baby won't see

0:31:43.010 --> 0:31:45.930
<v Speaker 2>anything from me, Like you're not taking my money for

0:31:45.970 --> 0:31:49.450
<v Speaker 2>this baby. Oh, and then he also said and also

0:31:49.530 --> 0:31:53.130
<v Speaker 2>I'd need a paternity test. And I was just like ropeable,

0:31:53.290 --> 0:31:55.730
<v Speaker 2>and I said, you know what I will do is

0:31:55.730 --> 0:31:58.330
<v Speaker 2>I will fuck your life up. You have no idea

0:31:58.330 --> 0:32:00.570
<v Speaker 2>how much I will fuck your life up. And I

0:32:00.610 --> 0:32:02.850
<v Speaker 2>will fuck up your perfect little trust funds. And if

0:32:02.890 --> 0:32:05.170
<v Speaker 2>you've got three kids, there will be three trust funds.

0:32:05.210 --> 0:32:07.930
<v Speaker 2>There won't just be two any more. And We've hung

0:32:08.010 --> 0:32:12.210
<v Speaker 2>up the phone, enraged, in rage really each other and

0:32:12.250 --> 0:32:23.010
<v Speaker 2>didn't speak for days. It felt awful because I felt

0:32:23.010 --> 0:32:26.610
<v Speaker 2>like he was reducing all the love I had for him,

0:32:27.010 --> 0:32:30.610
<v Speaker 2>was just coming down to his money. And I was thinking, like,

0:32:31.130 --> 0:32:33.970
<v Speaker 2>I spend six hours a week in my car to

0:32:34.050 --> 0:32:37.650
<v Speaker 2>see you. How could you say this is about money,

0:32:37.770 --> 0:32:40.650
<v Speaker 2>or if it was, like I would have stopped seeing

0:32:40.690 --> 0:32:44.410
<v Speaker 2>you ten months ago when you stopped paying me, Like

0:32:44.610 --> 0:32:50.490
<v Speaker 2>I was so offended by the whole suggestion. Really, I

0:32:50.530 --> 0:32:53.370
<v Speaker 2>never questioned the rest of our relationship. I knew that

0:32:53.410 --> 0:32:56.290
<v Speaker 2>he just had big reactions to things when they happened,

0:32:56.450 --> 0:32:59.250
<v Speaker 2>and that was a theme, like he would just blow

0:32:59.370 --> 0:33:04.850
<v Speaker 2>up and then get over it really quickly. So I

0:33:04.890 --> 0:33:07.490
<v Speaker 2>didn't question the rest of the relationship or how he

0:33:07.570 --> 0:33:11.290
<v Speaker 2>felt about me. But it made me mad because I

0:33:11.330 --> 0:33:13.610
<v Speaker 2>didn't like what else was I meant to have done

0:33:13.610 --> 0:33:19.330
<v Speaker 2>to have proved how much I loved him. This is

0:33:19.530 --> 0:33:26.530
<v Speaker 2>where I'm going to cry. We didn't speak for a

0:33:26.570 --> 0:33:31.650
<v Speaker 2>few days, and we spoke again and he said, I

0:33:31.650 --> 0:33:33.130
<v Speaker 2>think it was like, how would you feel about going

0:33:33.130 --> 0:33:36.130
<v Speaker 2>out for dinner or something? And we didn't end up

0:33:36.170 --> 0:33:38.730
<v Speaker 2>going out for dinner. We ended up meeting at his house,

0:33:40.130 --> 0:33:51.010
<v Speaker 2>and we just knew it was the end going there.

0:33:51.050 --> 0:33:54.250
<v Speaker 2>I knew that that was it for us.

0:33:55.530 --> 0:34:01.930
<v Speaker 3>So we just held each other and I just told

0:34:01.970 --> 0:34:08.890
<v Speaker 3>him how much I loved him, and how grateful I

0:34:09.090 --> 0:34:11.250
<v Speaker 3>was that he had saved my life and put it

0:34:11.330 --> 0:34:16.530
<v Speaker 3>back track, and that he had healed me in so

0:34:16.650 --> 0:34:23.090
<v Speaker 3>many ways, and everything was forgiven and there was no anger,

0:34:24.370 --> 0:34:31.770
<v Speaker 3>and we just left loving each other but knowing ultimately

0:34:31.850 --> 0:34:35.890
<v Speaker 3>that we wanted and needed different things in life and

0:34:36.650 --> 0:34:40.010
<v Speaker 3>that was just how it needed to be. He was

0:34:40.090 --> 0:34:44.370
<v Speaker 3>amazing during that conversation, so I just sort of lay

0:34:44.410 --> 0:34:50.330
<v Speaker 3>in his arms, just crying. And it was the first

0:34:50.370 --> 0:34:51.050
<v Speaker 3>time that.

0:34:52.450 --> 0:34:56.810
<v Speaker 2>I didn't try to change myself to make things better,

0:34:56.930 --> 0:34:59.970
<v Speaker 2>like every other time we'd fight about a baby, I

0:35:00.010 --> 0:35:04.450
<v Speaker 2>would say to him, I've been living without a baby

0:35:04.490 --> 0:35:07.730
<v Speaker 2>I don't have one now, and I'm okay, but I

0:35:07.850 --> 0:35:10.650
<v Speaker 2>have you, and I can't be okay with you. So

0:35:10.770 --> 0:35:14.730
<v Speaker 2>I used to say, look at me, I'm already living

0:35:14.770 --> 0:35:18.170
<v Speaker 2>without a baby, but I couldn't live without you. And

0:35:18.730 --> 0:35:21.330
<v Speaker 2>the last time we saw each other was the only

0:35:21.410 --> 0:35:25.370
<v Speaker 2>time I realized I needed to get what I wanted

0:35:25.370 --> 0:35:30.370
<v Speaker 2>out life. I think that he had built me up

0:35:30.490 --> 0:35:36.570
<v Speaker 2>enough that I didn't need him, and I think he

0:35:36.730 --> 0:35:38.490
<v Speaker 2>was a bit of like a safety net for me

0:35:38.570 --> 0:35:42.130
<v Speaker 2>because he did. He just always made me so calm.

0:35:43.490 --> 0:35:45.050
<v Speaker 2>I didn't want to let go of any of it.

0:35:45.210 --> 0:35:49.930
<v Speaker 2>The safety and the security and the containment and everything

0:35:49.970 --> 0:35:55.450
<v Speaker 2>that I had never felt before. I couldn't imagine life

0:35:55.490 --> 0:35:58.770
<v Speaker 2>without him, because more than anything, he was just my

0:35:58.930 --> 0:36:01.730
<v Speaker 2>very best friend. He was the person I could talk

0:36:01.810 --> 0:36:07.010
<v Speaker 2>to about everything, and he was the biggest part of

0:36:07.530 --> 0:36:11.410
<v Speaker 2>every day of my life. The drive home was rough.

0:36:12.210 --> 0:36:16.610
<v Speaker 2>I remember needing to leave. It was sort of at

0:36:16.650 --> 0:36:18.410
<v Speaker 2>the point where it's like there's nothing left to say

0:36:18.450 --> 0:36:21.330
<v Speaker 2>and there's nothing left to do. I need to leave,

0:36:22.970 --> 0:36:26.570
<v Speaker 2>And the thought of leaving his house knowing I was

0:36:26.610 --> 0:36:31.130
<v Speaker 2>never going back was sickening, Like I was like my

0:36:31.290 --> 0:36:33.490
<v Speaker 2>legs were shaking, and I just felt like I couldn't

0:36:33.810 --> 0:36:41.690
<v Speaker 2>walk to his front door. Of course, we were still talking,

0:36:42.330 --> 0:36:48.490
<v Speaker 2>not every day and not consistently, but I would still

0:36:48.810 --> 0:36:51.890
<v Speaker 2>reach out to him. I think I was reaching out

0:36:51.890 --> 0:36:54.930
<v Speaker 2>to him to try to get those feelings of being

0:36:55.050 --> 0:37:01.410
<v Speaker 2>safe back. So after we stopped speaking, I started experiencing

0:37:02.090 --> 0:37:06.850
<v Speaker 2>horrendous anxiety at nighttime, just horrendous, like I was feeling

0:37:06.890 --> 0:37:11.370
<v Speaker 2>like nauseated and I couldn't sleep, And it was debilitating

0:37:11.370 --> 0:37:14.890
<v Speaker 2>every or to get this anxiety. So some nights I'd

0:37:14.890 --> 0:37:16.490
<v Speaker 2>call him just to make it go away.

0:37:17.250 --> 0:37:20.530
<v Speaker 1>It was the worst heartbreak she'd ever experienced, but she

0:37:20.610 --> 0:37:22.770
<v Speaker 1>didn't even feel like she had anyone to lean on.

0:37:23.210 --> 0:37:28.130
<v Speaker 2>It was difficult. So because of his jealousy and some

0:37:28.210 --> 0:37:31.250
<v Speaker 2>of the fights we had, he could be quite insensitive

0:37:31.370 --> 0:37:35.610
<v Speaker 2>at times as well. He would just make comments without

0:37:35.770 --> 0:37:40.010
<v Speaker 2>thinking about them. So one time, if we're sitting on

0:37:40.050 --> 0:37:41.890
<v Speaker 2>the couch, I got put my legs up on him,

0:37:41.890 --> 0:37:45.010
<v Speaker 2>and he referred to my legs as feeling like concrete

0:37:45.050 --> 0:37:49.650
<v Speaker 2>stumps or all of the trust issues we had, a

0:37:49.690 --> 0:37:51.610
<v Speaker 2>lot of my friends were sort of like red flag,

0:37:51.770 --> 0:37:54.810
<v Speaker 2>like you need to leave him, Like this isn't good,

0:37:54.930 --> 0:37:58.610
<v Speaker 2>Like he's mean about your appearance, and he doesn't trust

0:37:58.650 --> 0:38:02.050
<v Speaker 2>you and you don't deserve that. But I just I

0:38:02.090 --> 0:38:04.930
<v Speaker 2>saw through all of that because I saw no malice.

0:38:04.970 --> 0:38:07.970
<v Speaker 2>Like I didn't think he's got trust issues because he's

0:38:07.970 --> 0:38:10.370
<v Speaker 2>a red flag. I thought he's a man who hasn't

0:38:10.490 --> 0:38:14.690
<v Speaker 2>dated in thirty years and he's come from the comfort

0:38:14.850 --> 0:38:17.730
<v Speaker 2>of a I think it was a twenty three year marriage.

0:38:18.410 --> 0:38:20.530
<v Speaker 2>Of course, he's going to be jealous when he's dating

0:38:21.730 --> 0:38:26.130
<v Speaker 2>a thirty year old who's attractive and young, and like,

0:38:26.970 --> 0:38:30.410
<v Speaker 2>I just felt like almost a compliment that he was jealous.

0:38:30.450 --> 0:38:32.690
<v Speaker 2>Like I didn't see it as like a red flag

0:38:32.730 --> 0:38:35.730
<v Speaker 2>that all my friends did. So by the time it

0:38:35.810 --> 0:38:37.810
<v Speaker 2>came to an end, my friends were well and truly

0:38:37.890 --> 0:38:43.170
<v Speaker 2>over hearing about what was going on. Anyway, they were

0:38:43.210 --> 0:38:46.490
<v Speaker 2>sort of like, you know, you deserve better. And it's

0:38:46.530 --> 0:38:49.530
<v Speaker 2>not that I didn't think I deserved better, because I

0:38:49.570 --> 0:38:56.130
<v Speaker 2>think he is amazing, But it was just like they

0:38:56.170 --> 0:39:01.130
<v Speaker 2>didn't see what I saw. I guess no one knew

0:39:01.490 --> 0:39:02.330
<v Speaker 2>what he meant to me.

0:39:04.490 --> 0:39:07.010
<v Speaker 1>The weeks went by with Carli trying to heal on

0:39:07.050 --> 0:39:09.730
<v Speaker 1>her own and look ahead to a life without James.

0:39:10.090 --> 0:39:13.050
<v Speaker 1>Over time, she stopped calling him. She knew she had

0:39:13.090 --> 0:39:15.050
<v Speaker 1>to do this on her own and she had to

0:39:15.090 --> 0:39:17.530
<v Speaker 1>let go, and soon enough he helped her do that.

0:39:18.210 --> 0:39:20.370
<v Speaker 2>One thing was that we had always sort of made

0:39:20.410 --> 0:39:22.730
<v Speaker 2>an agreement that neither of us would ever go back

0:39:22.770 --> 0:39:25.690
<v Speaker 2>on the website where we found each other, like it

0:39:25.770 --> 0:39:27.770
<v Speaker 2>was so detrimental to both of us, and were like,

0:39:27.810 --> 0:39:29.690
<v Speaker 2>we can neither of us can ever go back there.

0:39:30.770 --> 0:39:34.690
<v Speaker 2>And he sent me a text after maybe three weeks saying,

0:39:35.970 --> 0:39:40.130
<v Speaker 2>so I had asked for space. I said, I'm not

0:39:40.170 --> 0:39:43.490
<v Speaker 2>going to be able to sort of let go of

0:39:43.530 --> 0:39:46.450
<v Speaker 2>this if we keep being best friends and we keep talking.

0:39:47.690 --> 0:39:52.210
<v Speaker 2>And he texted me saying, you know, I know you

0:39:52.250 --> 0:39:54.210
<v Speaker 2>asked for space, but I just want to I think

0:39:54.250 --> 0:39:59.010
<v Speaker 2>you should know that I've signed up to RSVP, And

0:39:59.050 --> 0:40:04.370
<v Speaker 2>that was like relief for me, Like I felt like, okay,

0:40:04.570 --> 0:40:09.330
<v Speaker 2>like he's really closing the door. Now I can move

0:40:09.370 --> 0:40:15.890
<v Speaker 2>on with my life because he is. And I think

0:40:16.010 --> 0:40:21.250
<v Speaker 2>because he always had that jealousy and he, you know,

0:40:21.410 --> 0:40:23.890
<v Speaker 2>never quite believed that I loved him. I didn't want

0:40:23.930 --> 0:40:25.570
<v Speaker 2>to be the first one to make a big move

0:40:26.530 --> 0:40:29.930
<v Speaker 2>in life because I could just picture him thinking in

0:40:29.930 --> 0:40:32.050
<v Speaker 2>his frain like oh she had that planned all along,

0:40:32.250 --> 0:40:36.450
<v Speaker 2>or and I just I was really a relief when

0:40:36.450 --> 0:40:38.810
<v Speaker 2>he told me he was going to start dating again.

0:40:38.930 --> 0:40:42.490
<v Speaker 2>I thought, great, like you've set me free, Like I

0:40:43.250 --> 0:40:46.810
<v Speaker 2>can be free now because you are. There were a

0:40:46.850 --> 0:40:50.090
<v Speaker 2>few times where we'd gotten into our fights and I

0:40:50.090 --> 0:40:53.890
<v Speaker 2>had felt relief when we had said, Okay, well we

0:40:53.930 --> 0:40:56.970
<v Speaker 2>want different things, we'll just break up, And in the moment,

0:40:57.290 --> 0:41:02.570
<v Speaker 2>nearly every time i'd feel relief. I think because I

0:41:02.690 --> 0:41:07.810
<v Speaker 2>knew that I would never get the whole big picture

0:41:07.850 --> 0:41:11.370
<v Speaker 2>of what I wanted out of life with him, and

0:41:11.450 --> 0:41:15.450
<v Speaker 2>so I knew that I was giving up giving up

0:41:15.490 --> 0:41:19.490
<v Speaker 2>some really big things to be with him. It felt

0:41:19.570 --> 0:41:23.010
<v Speaker 2>really freeing, and it felt like the relationship had served

0:41:23.010 --> 0:41:27.290
<v Speaker 2>a purpose, and that purpose was going to be lifelong,

0:41:27.610 --> 0:41:30.050
<v Speaker 2>like he had helped me for the rest of my life.

0:41:31.170 --> 0:41:34.730
<v Speaker 2>I think it's just because we crammed so much into

0:41:34.970 --> 0:41:41.210
<v Speaker 2>sort of eighteen months of healing for each other. The

0:41:41.330 --> 0:41:45.170
<v Speaker 2>version of him that I met was so far away

0:41:45.170 --> 0:41:48.690
<v Speaker 2>from the version of him that we left each other

0:41:48.770 --> 0:41:54.570
<v Speaker 2>at as well. He was okay to be alone by

0:41:54.610 --> 0:41:59.090
<v Speaker 2>the time we stopped seeing each other, whereas at the

0:41:59.170 --> 0:42:04.810
<v Speaker 2>start he was paying women frequently for their time. And

0:42:04.850 --> 0:42:07.690
<v Speaker 2>he's okay alone now, which is really nice.

0:42:08.770 --> 0:42:11.530
<v Speaker 1>It's been two years now since James and Carly split

0:42:11.850 --> 0:42:14.490
<v Speaker 1>and she's doing well too. They still speak from time

0:42:14.530 --> 0:42:17.730
<v Speaker 1>to time. That's one thing she doesn't think will ever change.

0:42:18.290 --> 0:42:20.610
<v Speaker 2>So I think that the love I have for him

0:42:20.850 --> 0:42:23.770
<v Speaker 2>is it's just something I'm not willing to compromise on

0:42:24.450 --> 0:42:27.650
<v Speaker 2>at this stage. You'll probably ever Like you know, I

0:42:27.650 --> 0:42:30.250
<v Speaker 2>feel quite assertive in all of my relationships and that

0:42:30.290 --> 0:42:34.330
<v Speaker 2>I'm able to say the important people who I sort

0:42:34.330 --> 0:42:36.770
<v Speaker 2>of non negotiables in my life, and here's one of them.

0:42:37.850 --> 0:42:41.610
<v Speaker 2>It's just knowing he's there that's nice, and knowing that

0:42:42.610 --> 0:42:44.730
<v Speaker 2>I know that if I called him, he'd always be

0:42:44.850 --> 0:42:49.730
<v Speaker 2>there for me. On that last time we saw each other,

0:42:49.810 --> 0:42:52.170
<v Speaker 2>he did say like when I do have a baby,

0:42:52.290 --> 0:42:54.970
<v Speaker 2>like he'll come and see my baby and he'll be

0:42:55.010 --> 0:43:00.530
<v Speaker 2>so happy for me. Healing from him occurred while I

0:43:00.570 --> 0:43:05.490
<v Speaker 2>was still with him, because the experience I had with

0:43:05.610 --> 0:43:10.850
<v Speaker 2>him built me up to being a stronger person. I

0:43:10.890 --> 0:43:14.810
<v Speaker 2>think he helped me with multiple things, But one of

0:43:14.810 --> 0:43:21.810
<v Speaker 2>my biggest takeaways is that I realized how many people

0:43:21.850 --> 0:43:24.770
<v Speaker 2>I probably never gave the time of day two I

0:43:24.810 --> 0:43:28.010
<v Speaker 2>know for sure, like if he had just met me

0:43:28.090 --> 0:43:30.490
<v Speaker 2>in a bar and asked to buy me a drink,

0:43:30.650 --> 0:43:33.690
<v Speaker 2>like I would have said, no, I'm not interested, just

0:43:33.730 --> 0:43:36.690
<v Speaker 2>based on his appearance. I had to do a lot

0:43:36.690 --> 0:43:39.730
<v Speaker 2>of reflection on like how I got to that point,

0:43:39.890 --> 0:43:43.410
<v Speaker 2>How many people have I missed out on amazing opportunities

0:43:43.410 --> 0:43:46.570
<v Speaker 2>with because I was I wouldn't call myself shallow, but

0:43:47.650 --> 0:43:50.090
<v Speaker 2>I definitely had a type that I would pay more

0:43:50.130 --> 0:43:54.650
<v Speaker 2>attention to than others. And unfortunately, if our relationship hadn't

0:43:54.650 --> 0:43:57.010
<v Speaker 2>started by him paying me, I wouldn't have got to

0:43:57.050 --> 0:44:00.090
<v Speaker 2>know him as a person, and I wouldn't have found

0:44:00.130 --> 0:44:04.570
<v Speaker 2>one of my soulmates in this world. So he's definitely

0:44:04.610 --> 0:44:08.890
<v Speaker 2>taught me to give everyone a chance in life. Because

0:44:09.930 --> 0:44:14.330
<v Speaker 2>we didn't have similar interests or hobbies or definitely didn't

0:44:14.370 --> 0:44:18.490
<v Speaker 2>have similar political or social views at all, but he

0:44:18.610 --> 0:44:21.370
<v Speaker 2>was my best friend. And you know, I'm a believer

0:44:21.450 --> 0:44:26.090
<v Speaker 2>that you have sort of like multiple soulmates in your life,

0:44:26.090 --> 0:44:28.490
<v Speaker 2>and I like, I'm really confident that he was one

0:44:28.530 --> 0:44:31.850
<v Speaker 2>of mine and that we needed to meet. I think

0:44:31.890 --> 0:44:35.610
<v Speaker 2>that my story is important because of how much I

0:44:35.770 --> 0:44:38.930
<v Speaker 2>learned about beauty only being skin deep and all of

0:44:38.930 --> 0:44:41.970
<v Speaker 2>those other sayings that you hear growing up. But I

0:44:42.050 --> 0:44:46.930
<v Speaker 2>didn't realize how true they were until this relationship, and

0:44:47.690 --> 0:44:51.410
<v Speaker 2>I didn't realize how much I needed to reevaluate my

0:44:51.450 --> 0:44:55.890
<v Speaker 2>own morals and my own values and looking at the

0:44:55.930 --> 0:45:01.050
<v Speaker 2>importance of relationships for me, because if I had missed

0:45:01.050 --> 0:45:04.250
<v Speaker 2>out on this one, I would just hate to think

0:45:05.050 --> 0:45:08.930
<v Speaker 2>where things would have ended up. I think I healed

0:45:08.970 --> 0:45:14.250
<v Speaker 2>a lot by knowing him, by knowing that there is

0:45:14.330 --> 0:45:18.810
<v Speaker 2>this like, there's feelings of safety that I can achieve,

0:45:19.970 --> 0:45:22.330
<v Speaker 2>and if I achieve them with him, then I can

0:45:22.410 --> 0:45:26.410
<v Speaker 2>do them by myself or with other people. So it

0:45:26.490 --> 0:45:30.610
<v Speaker 2>was nice. I definitely feel a lot more secure in

0:45:30.650 --> 0:45:36.130
<v Speaker 2>who I am that I don't have this need for

0:45:36.170 --> 0:45:40.370
<v Speaker 2>everyone to love me like I used to. It used

0:45:40.370 --> 0:45:45.970
<v Speaker 2>to be so consuming that I didn't believe people could

0:45:46.010 --> 0:45:49.210
<v Speaker 2>ever love me enough. I felt like people loved me

0:45:49.370 --> 0:45:55.370
<v Speaker 2>out of obligation to love me, and he definitely showed

0:45:55.410 --> 0:45:59.050
<v Speaker 2>me that that wasn't true. Life since has been pretty

0:45:59.690 --> 0:46:03.130
<v Speaker 2>pretty good. I just try and keep really busy and

0:46:03.170 --> 0:46:07.770
<v Speaker 2>look forward to the future. Really, I think that I

0:46:07.890 --> 0:46:12.610
<v Speaker 2>definitely have a lot more gratitude for for life. When

0:46:12.610 --> 0:46:18.010
<v Speaker 2>I wake up every day, I know that good things

0:46:18.050 --> 0:46:23.730
<v Speaker 2>are just like unexpectedly around the corner. I don't worry

0:46:23.850 --> 0:46:27.970
<v Speaker 2>about not finding friends or being lonely. I just know

0:46:28.130 --> 0:46:32.170
<v Speaker 2>that everything's going to be okay. We've sort of made

0:46:32.210 --> 0:46:35.810
<v Speaker 2>an agreement like that will never sort of block each

0:46:35.810 --> 0:46:39.090
<v Speaker 2>other on Facebook, so we can sort of see what

0:46:39.170 --> 0:46:42.490
<v Speaker 2>each other's doing from time to time. And I think

0:46:42.850 --> 0:46:48.530
<v Speaker 2>we'll always chat intimittently. Like I said, you know, when

0:46:48.530 --> 0:46:50.410
<v Speaker 2>you get a new girlfriend, you have to make sure

0:46:50.450 --> 0:46:53.570
<v Speaker 2>she's fine with you talking to your ex because I

0:46:53.570 --> 0:46:56.890
<v Speaker 2>don't want to get booted when he finds someone new.

0:46:57.490 --> 0:47:00.330
<v Speaker 2>That scares me a lot. Just the thought of not

0:47:00.370 --> 0:47:06.730
<v Speaker 2>having him in any capacity is scary. I think I

0:47:06.850 --> 0:47:08.170
<v Speaker 2>will love him forever.

0:47:21.930 --> 0:47:24.690
<v Speaker 1>Everyone has an X is a Minti Media production and

0:47:24.770 --> 0:47:28.330
<v Speaker 1>proudly part of the Mumamea Network. Is written and narrated

0:47:28.370 --> 0:47:31.930
<v Speaker 1>by me Georgia Love and produced by Linda Scott. If

0:47:31.930 --> 0:47:34.530
<v Speaker 1>you have a story you'd like to share, email podcast

0:47:34.610 --> 0:47:38.010
<v Speaker 1>at momamea dot com dot au. You can support us

0:47:38.010 --> 0:47:40.490
<v Speaker 1>by following the show in your favorite podcast app and

0:47:40.610 --> 0:47:43.130
<v Speaker 1>leaving a five star review. We'll see you for the

0:47:43.170 --> 0:47:48.050
<v Speaker 1>next episode.