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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother of me A podcast. MoMA

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Speaker 1: Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters.

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Speaker 1: This podcast is recorded on age differences. Do they really

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Speaker 1: mean anything? You're only as old as the person you feel.

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Speaker 1: Age is but a number, etcetera, etcetera. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: when you're in love, right.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know how I would explain to people that

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Speaker 2: I had met him. I suppose I didn't give my

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Speaker 2: friends enough credit, and I worried that they would be

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Speaker 2: judgmental of his appearance and sort of ask me, what

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Speaker 2: are you doing why? You know, you're young, and you're

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Speaker 2: sort of in this peak of your life and you've

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Speaker 2: settled for a bit of a dorky old man.

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Speaker 1: That's Carlie. She'll be the first person to tell you

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Speaker 1: age doesn't mean a damned thing when you find your one.

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Speaker 1: But whether age is the problem or not, some love

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Speaker 1: stories just don't the way we plan.

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Speaker 2: So we just held each.

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Speaker 3: Other and I just told him how much I loved

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Speaker 3: him and how grateful I was that he had saved

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Speaker 3: my life.

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Speaker 1: I'm Georgia Love and this is everyone has an ex

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Speaker 1: Come with me as we dive into a collection of

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Speaker 1: unconventional stories about relationships past through the eyes and the

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Speaker 1: hearts of the very people who lived them. Meet Carly.

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Speaker 1: Her story starts a little differently than others we've told you,

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Speaker 1: because at age thirty, Carly wasn't looking for someone at all.

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Speaker 1: She was out looking for fun, autonomy, and money.

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Speaker 2: So I suppose I ended up as a sugar baby

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Speaker 2: at age thirty quite unexpectedly. I suppose I had a

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Speaker 2: few incidents where I felt a bit like out of

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Speaker 2: control of my body. I'd lost a pregnancy and experienced

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Speaker 2: some other traumatic events where I felt like my body

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Speaker 2: wasn't my own. And I got into this mindset of

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Speaker 2: like I deserve to be paid for my body existing essentially,

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Speaker 2: And I discovered like the sugar baby sugar daddy world,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, this is great. Men can't treat

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Speaker 2: me like shit anymore because I'm in control. I'm getting

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Speaker 2: paid for my time and their experience. So it felt

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Speaker 2: really powerful. After probably a really rough eighteen months of

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Speaker 2: not having much body autonomy for quite some time, I

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Speaker 2: found out about it through a friend who said that

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Speaker 2: she had dabbled in the sugar baby industry. I think

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Speaker 2: I had always heard about it sort of on and

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Speaker 2: off terms of being thrown out. But I didn't know

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Speaker 2: how accessible it was to become a sugar baby, so

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Speaker 2: I just found a website online and signed up. The

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Speaker 2: basis of it is men paying you for your time

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Speaker 2: with them, so the dates I would go on would

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Speaker 2: look fastly different. So I had one client in particular,

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Speaker 2: like I'd just accompany him to his business dinners and

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Speaker 2: he'd buy me new clothes to wear or get my

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Speaker 2: makeup done, and I would spend the night at his

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Speaker 2: dinners with him, or like fundraising events. There were men

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Speaker 2: who just didn't want to be alone. I had one

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Speaker 2: client who had broken up with his girlfriend and just

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Speaker 2: paid me. He wanted to call me his ex girlfriend's

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Speaker 2: name and just hug me and paid me for that time.

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Speaker 2: So it was really different what every man is looking

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Speaker 2: for in the sugar baby sugar daddy world. I loved

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Speaker 2: how I felt like I got to have like this

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Speaker 2: secret life, like this secret world where I got to

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Speaker 2: meet all of these people and have lots of new experiences,

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Speaker 2: and I was exposed to worlds that I'd never normally

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Speaker 2: be exposed to, Like the line of work I do

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Speaker 2: doesn't come with fancy dinners or corporate events, and so

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Speaker 2: being exposed to those things was really fun for me.

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Speaker 2: The things that were the highs were like I suppose,

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Speaker 2: like unexpected generosity, like people who would just like shower

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Speaker 2: you with gifts that was sort of unexpected, or those

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Speaker 2: kinds of events. And the lows were people who would

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Speaker 2: just be really degrading, like I've paid for this time

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Speaker 2: with you, so we'll do whatever I want to do,

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Speaker 2: and didn't take any time to get to know me.

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Speaker 2: That was more just I won't see that person again.

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Speaker 2: I never thought I would do it long term, but

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Speaker 2: there were some really great clients too, like one named James.

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Speaker 2: I'd been doing it for roughly six months, and I

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Speaker 2: had been with a few who I had seen multiple times.

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Speaker 2: Some were just one off and it really varied. But

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Speaker 2: really immediately upon meeting James, I knew that was going

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Speaker 2: to be really different. He was just lovely. From the

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Speaker 2: first time we met. He was very awkward. He was

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Speaker 2: forty eight. He is very tall, quite dorky looking like

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Speaker 2: definitely not my type by any stretch of the imagination.

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Speaker 2: Really just looked like a middle age man. Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 2: His height took me by surprise, like I came up

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Speaker 2: to his shoulders. We just went out for lunch, and

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Speaker 2: I remember him saying like, oh, you're never gonna want

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Speaker 2: to see me again after today, But I at that

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Speaker 2: point it was like, well, you paid me for my time,

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Speaker 2: and why wouldn't I I got lunch and five hundred dollars,

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Speaker 2: Like this is great, So I was like, no, of

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Speaker 2: course I'd happily see you again. He was very recently widowed.

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Speaker 2: He had lost his wife of twenty three years only

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Speaker 2: two months prior, so he was seeking company. For the

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Speaker 2: most part, on the first meeting, we didn't speak much

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Speaker 2: about his wife. But I remember the second meeting, We're

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Speaker 2: in a hotel room and was sort of just like

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Speaker 2: cuddling on the bed and he was telling me about her,

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Speaker 2: and I rolled away to not be facing him because

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Speaker 2: I was crying. I was just devastated for him, and

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Speaker 2: I remember thinking, this is horrendous, how can someone experience

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Speaker 2: such a loss in their life, and feeling so much

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Speaker 2: sadness for him as he spoke about her. And I

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Speaker 2: think that me having such a big reaction definitely led

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Speaker 2: to him wanting to continue the relationship because he knew

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Speaker 2: that I was more than just sort of surface deep,

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Speaker 2: like I really cared.

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Speaker 1: It surprised Carly how much hearing about James's wife affected her,

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Speaker 1: but she couldn't help feeling the injustice in it that

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Speaker 1: this lovely, kind man didn't deserve to lose such a

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Speaker 1: great love, and if he wanted her to, she was

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Speaker 1: very happy to be there to help him feel a

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Speaker 1: bit of comfort during such a sad time.

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Speaker 2: I'm like an EmPATH through and through, so I feel

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Speaker 2: everyone's emotions that I'm around, So that's not strange for

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Speaker 2: me to feel what other people are feeling or feed

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Speaker 2: off other people's emotions. But I knew. I knew in

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Speaker 2: that moment how vulnerable he was and how much he

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Speaker 2: needed to be protected, and I just wanted I just

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Speaker 2: wanted to protect him straight away. He was just kind

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Speaker 2: and gentle and really genuine, and he wanted to get

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Speaker 2: to know me and what I wanted, and he was

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Speaker 2: interested in my career aspirations, and we had spoken about

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Speaker 2: like what UNI degree he had done thirty years prior

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Speaker 2: and things like that, So it wasn't just a man

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Speaker 2: sexualizing me because he thought that's what he had paid

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Speaker 2: for and that's what he was entitled to. It was

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Speaker 2: just a man who wanted to create a connection. We're

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Speaker 2: seeing each other weekly to begin with, the first few

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Speaker 2: months was probably weekly. I distinctly remember maybe like four

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Speaker 2: or five dates in and we would text a lot,

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Speaker 2: and I knew he was having a rough day and

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Speaker 2: he was quite upset about his late wife, and I

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Speaker 2: I text him one night saying can I give you

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Speaker 2: a call? And he texts back saying like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: are you breaking up with me? And I said no, like,

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Speaker 2: I just I know you've had a really rough day

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Speaker 2: and I just want to talk. And from that point on,

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Speaker 2: I think we would spend three hours a day talking

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Speaker 2: on the phone every day. We would text all the

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Speaker 2: time when we were apart, and it was just lovely.

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Speaker 2: So when we had all this time together on the phone,

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Speaker 2: it was really different for me. So I had been

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Speaker 2: in a really long term relationship, which was a marriage

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Speaker 2: that had taken a really rocky turn when we had

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Speaker 2: lost our baby and we were grieving separately, I suppose,

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Speaker 2: and myself and my husband had always lived like a

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Speaker 2: very working class life, like we'd both worked full time

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Speaker 2: for as long as we'd been together, and all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, I was seeing this retired man who me

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Speaker 2: calling him was his world. So he had unlimited time

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Speaker 2: for me, and I wasn't used to that because adult

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Speaker 2: relationships are so constrained by work pressure and life and

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Speaker 2: all of these other things that he didn't have. So

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Speaker 2: when his kids were at school during the day, he

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Speaker 2: was just constantly available to me, and that was something

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Speaker 2: I had never experienced before, just that availability. And any

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Speaker 2: time I wanted to talk to someone or needed to

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Speaker 2: talk to someone, I knew I could pick up the

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Speaker 2: phone and he'd be there anytime of the day. He

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Speaker 2: would just buy me so much jewelry, gorgeous jewelry, and

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Speaker 2: like we'd set prices for what he was going to

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Speaker 2: gift me in exchange for my time, and he'd always

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Speaker 2: give me like double what I had said I was expecting,

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Speaker 2: or throw in like vouchers or like a beautiful bracelet

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Speaker 2: one time. So he would just always go sort of

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Speaker 2: above and beyond. It made me feel really valued, yeah,

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Speaker 2: just valued. Maybe By the fifth time I saw him,

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Speaker 2: I remember thinking to myself, like, this is as good

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Speaker 2: as it gets in this world. So you're not like

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to try anymore, I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: go on any more dates, because like, I've reached the

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Speaker 2: peak of what happens in the sugar baby world. In

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Speaker 2: my thought processes, I thought, I've reached a peak here,

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Speaker 2: like this is as good as it gets. I have

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Speaker 2: been so showered with like generosity and love and gifts

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Speaker 2: and affection I can't go back to like the tire

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Speaker 2: kickers of the community. Like so, I made a decision

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Speaker 2: pretty early on that he was going to be my

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Speaker 2: last ever client.

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Speaker 1: It didn't take long for both of them to realize

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Speaker 1: this was more than just a client worker relationship. Yes

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Speaker 1: he was paying her, but a genuine connection group for him.

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Speaker 2: Quite early on, he was telling me that he loved me,

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Speaker 2: probably within four weeks of meeting. And then he'd get

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Speaker 2: confused and he'd say, I've got all of these feelings

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Speaker 2: of love for my late wife and they've got nowhere

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Speaker 2: to go anymore so and probably just thinking they belong

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Speaker 2: to you when they don't. But he'd say he loved me,

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Speaker 2: and I think we'd been seeing each other for like

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Speaker 2: six weeks when he asked how I wanted to be

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Speaker 2: proposed to, and then he sent me a message like sorry,

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Speaker 2: I didn't mean to accidentally propose, like I don't even

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Speaker 2: think I want to get married again. But he was

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Speaker 2: just he was overwhelmed in his own feelings as well,

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Speaker 2: so he would tell me he loved me, and I

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Speaker 2: think after about two months I told him that I

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Speaker 2: loved him too. We started having discussions about what the

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Speaker 2: future would look like because it was really clear that

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Speaker 2: above all else, we had this really great, genuine friendship

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Speaker 2: that we both wanted to protect it all costs. So

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Speaker 2: he had a conversation with me one day where he

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Speaker 2: was like, look, I really want to keep seeing you,

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Speaker 2: but this isn't financially viable and it's not smart, and

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Speaker 2: I've got kids to think of, and like, I can't

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Speaker 2: keep paying you the way I have been, And he

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Speaker 2: was extraordinarily generous for my time. And that's where we

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Speaker 2: started having conversations about what the future would look like

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Speaker 2: if we moved away from sort of like a client

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Speaker 2: based relationship where money wasn't being exchanged for spending time together.

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Speaker 2: So they did it really just it happened. There was

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Speaker 2: a few big hurdles that we needed to face, Like

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Speaker 2: up until then all of our meetings had taken place

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Speaker 2: in hotels, and he had I mean, I say kids

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Speaker 2: one of them was an adult, one was an adolescent.

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Speaker 2: Two kids he needed to protect in that space as well,

219
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Speaker 2: And he was really mindful of not mixing me with

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Speaker 2: his family because his wife had only been deceased for

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Speaker 2: a few months at that point and the kids had

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Speaker 2: lost their mum. So he was really respectful of not

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Speaker 2: wanting me in that space just yet. So we had

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Speaker 2: a few sort of teething issues about how we were

225
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Speaker 2: going to work this hour. We also lived an hour

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Speaker 2: and a half away from each so it wasn't simple

227
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Speaker 2: geographically to work out how we're going to do this either.

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Speaker 2: Not meeting his family in the early stages felt really appropriate.

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Speaker 2: It's very different to his experience. But I was a

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Speaker 2: child of divorce, so I do understand the pressures that

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Speaker 2: adults face of their children meeting new partners. And that's

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Speaker 2: definitely not to compare a divorce to someone passing away,

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Speaker 2: but I did understand, like being a child of divorce,

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Speaker 2: that parents have a lot of pressure to not introduce

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Speaker 2: new partners to their kids really quickly. And I mean,

236
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Speaker 2: on a side note, I'm also terrified of teenage girls.

237
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Speaker 2: I think they're just the scariest breed of human possible,

238
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Speaker 2: so not meeting his daughter that sat quite well with

239
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Speaker 2: me for a while. I just thought, oh my god,

240
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Speaker 2: she's going to tear shreds off me. Like yeah, I

241
00:14:07,850 --> 00:14:11,170
Speaker 2: was okay with not meeting for a while. I think

242
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Speaker 2: I ended up up going to his house for the

243
00:14:13,970 --> 00:14:16,130
Speaker 2: first time. So we'd met in the May, and I

244
00:14:16,170 --> 00:14:17,610
Speaker 2: think I went to his house for the first time

245
00:14:17,650 --> 00:14:20,090
Speaker 2: in the July. So I remember going to his house

246
00:14:20,130 --> 00:14:23,490
Speaker 2: for the first time. No one else was home at

247
00:14:23,490 --> 00:14:26,250
Speaker 2: the time, so there was one day a week where

248
00:14:26,930 --> 00:14:29,090
Speaker 2: one of his children was at work and one of

249
00:14:29,090 --> 00:14:31,170
Speaker 2: his children was at school, so we sort of had

250
00:14:31,210 --> 00:14:34,490
Speaker 2: a few hours where I could go over and spend

251
00:14:34,530 --> 00:14:37,570
Speaker 2: some time there. And that for me was a really

252
00:14:37,610 --> 00:14:42,450
Speaker 2: emotional experience because it was walking into a family home

253
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Speaker 2: but knowing that the family had been broken. It felt

254
00:14:46,010 --> 00:14:51,730
Speaker 2: really sad. It felt like I could feel the love

255
00:14:52,610 --> 00:14:55,890
Speaker 2: for this wife and mother who they had lost. And

256
00:14:56,090 --> 00:14:59,250
Speaker 2: the house was as warm and homely as you like.

257
00:14:59,290 --> 00:15:01,490
Speaker 2: You could tell there was like that woman's touch in

258
00:15:01,530 --> 00:15:03,650
Speaker 2: the house and that she had set it up beautifully,

259
00:15:03,690 --> 00:15:07,130
Speaker 2: and there was lots of memories of her, lots of

260
00:15:07,170 --> 00:15:10,410
Speaker 2: photos of her around the house and even on the

261
00:15:10,850 --> 00:15:13,890
Speaker 2: kitchen table for for months. In this lasted months after

262
00:15:14,970 --> 00:15:18,690
Speaker 2: the first meeting, was still like the pamphlets left over

263
00:15:18,730 --> 00:15:22,170
Speaker 2: from her funeral, and there was sort of arrangements from

264
00:15:22,410 --> 00:15:27,210
Speaker 2: the funeral home that obviously he was unable to deal

265
00:15:27,250 --> 00:15:28,810
Speaker 2: with at the time, so he just left them on

266
00:15:28,850 --> 00:15:32,290
Speaker 2: the kitchen table and I would see them all the

267
00:15:32,330 --> 00:15:36,130
Speaker 2: time and just yeah, not know what to do with that.

268
00:15:37,090 --> 00:15:43,530
Speaker 2: It made me feel guilty, probably because there was so

269
00:15:43,850 --> 00:15:46,890
Speaker 2: much that he was showing me of his world, and

270
00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:50,690
Speaker 2: I felt like, because of the way we met, we

271
00:15:50,730 --> 00:15:53,490
Speaker 2: were both going to have these ideas of each other

272
00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:57,810
Speaker 2: and who each other were that we couldn't take back, but.

273
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Speaker 1: They couldn't deny what they had. And feeling this in

274
00:16:00,850 --> 00:16:03,370
Speaker 1: James's home and him choosing to share it all with

275
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Speaker 1: her only made Carly four for him more.

276
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Speaker 2: Maybe six months in things had settled and that we're

277
00:16:12,570 --> 00:16:16,530
Speaker 2: in a bit of a routine. There wasn't We'd got

278
00:16:16,530 --> 00:16:21,050
Speaker 2: to know each other well enough, I think by that stage,

279
00:16:21,210 --> 00:16:27,090
Speaker 2: and things were just feeling really settled. I just knew

280
00:16:27,090 --> 00:16:30,530
Speaker 2: that every time I saw him, I felt so safe

281
00:16:30,610 --> 00:16:35,610
Speaker 2: and so contained. He provided this safety. My life has

282
00:16:35,650 --> 00:16:39,290
Speaker 2: always felt chaotic, like I just feel internal chaos all

283
00:16:39,330 --> 00:16:41,330
Speaker 2: the time. That's just sort of who I am as

284
00:16:41,330 --> 00:16:45,090
Speaker 2: a person. But being around him, he just calmed me.

285
00:16:45,170 --> 00:16:49,010
Speaker 2: He contained me in a way i'd never been I'd

286
00:16:49,010 --> 00:16:52,490
Speaker 2: never felt that safe before. I suppose I had like

287
00:16:52,530 --> 00:16:56,810
Speaker 2: a pretty deep wound of feeling unloved by men. My

288
00:16:56,930 --> 00:16:59,170
Speaker 2: father had taken his own life, and I had this

289
00:17:00,170 --> 00:17:04,170
Speaker 2: gaping hole of feeling unloved, like feeling like people love

290
00:17:04,250 --> 00:17:10,770
Speaker 2: me out of necessity. But I think having this relationship

291
00:17:10,810 --> 00:17:15,290
Speaker 2: with an older man and was very healing for a

292
00:17:15,290 --> 00:17:18,130
Speaker 2: lot of those wounds, Like I, you know, like the

293
00:17:18,170 --> 00:17:21,530
Speaker 2: sugar baby with classic daddy issues was really coming out.

294
00:17:21,690 --> 00:17:25,490
Speaker 2: It was like, Okay, I felt really abandoned by a parent,

295
00:17:25,570 --> 00:17:28,410
Speaker 2: and now I was desperate for this older man to

296
00:17:29,290 --> 00:17:32,610
Speaker 2: love me and to make that feel good. And he did.

297
00:17:32,890 --> 00:17:36,370
Speaker 2: He made that all feel those holes were just getting

298
00:17:36,370 --> 00:17:37,650
Speaker 2: filled up by him.

299
00:17:38,050 --> 00:17:40,370
Speaker 1: There was no doubt there was a lot of love there.

300
00:17:40,690 --> 00:17:43,210
Speaker 1: But when two people from such different lives meet in

301
00:17:43,250 --> 00:17:45,290
Speaker 1: such a way, it wasn't all rosy.

302
00:17:45,970 --> 00:17:50,090
Speaker 2: The first six months of our relationship was marked by

303
00:17:50,570 --> 00:17:57,090
Speaker 2: pretty extreme feelings of jealousy from both parties. So I

304
00:17:57,170 --> 00:18:01,730
Speaker 2: don't think he believed or accepted that I loved him

305
00:18:02,050 --> 00:18:05,410
Speaker 2: He struggled with that, and he would struggle with who

306
00:18:05,490 --> 00:18:07,850
Speaker 2: was texting me or you know. We got into this

307
00:18:07,970 --> 00:18:10,010
Speaker 2: huge fight once about me saying I was going to

308
00:18:10,050 --> 00:18:12,970
Speaker 2: the gym with this ill friend of mine, and he

309
00:18:13,330 --> 00:18:16,090
Speaker 2: hung up the phone heid you know, text me it's over,

310
00:18:16,450 --> 00:18:19,490
Speaker 2: like I can't deal with this, and I suppose I

311
00:18:19,530 --> 00:18:22,570
Speaker 2: lived with I don't know what the feeling of jealousy

312
00:18:22,650 --> 00:18:25,250
Speaker 2: is called, when you're jealous over someone who you can't

313
00:18:25,290 --> 00:18:28,370
Speaker 2: compete with, but I definitely felt like I was often

314
00:18:28,410 --> 00:18:33,130
Speaker 2: being compared to his late wife, and I would say, like,

315
00:18:33,250 --> 00:18:35,370
Speaker 2: you have to choose me for me because I can't

316
00:18:35,410 --> 00:18:39,130
Speaker 2: be her, and all the things that make me me

317
00:18:40,090 --> 00:18:43,250
Speaker 2: I can't take back. So my marriage had always been

318
00:18:43,250 --> 00:18:45,850
Speaker 2: a really open marriage. My husband and I had always

319
00:18:45,890 --> 00:18:49,250
Speaker 2: dated other people, and my life had been really sort

320
00:18:49,250 --> 00:18:53,370
Speaker 2: of like fun and free. And he was like, well,

321
00:18:54,370 --> 00:18:56,530
Speaker 2: I don't understand that, because if you were in love

322
00:18:56,570 --> 00:18:58,250
Speaker 2: with your husband the way I was with my wife,

323
00:18:58,290 --> 00:19:01,450
Speaker 2: like I never thought about anyone else. So he didn't

324
00:19:01,490 --> 00:19:05,370
Speaker 2: understand that, and he couldn't understand that I was making

325
00:19:05,450 --> 00:19:09,930
Speaker 2: him a promise to say that was an arrangement in

326
00:19:09,970 --> 00:19:13,690
Speaker 2: my marriage between two out of all who agreed to that,

327
00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:17,450
Speaker 2: and now we're two adults who agree to something different.

328
00:19:18,570 --> 00:19:20,450
Speaker 2: So he would always sort of say, you can't just

329
00:19:20,570 --> 00:19:24,090
Speaker 2: have one person, you always need more, And it was

330
00:19:24,130 --> 00:19:27,770
Speaker 2: hard for him to believe that he was the center

331
00:19:27,810 --> 00:19:30,850
Speaker 2: of my world. By that stage, I felt like I

332
00:19:30,850 --> 00:19:35,290
Speaker 2: couldn't escape my past, and I felt like I was

333
00:19:35,370 --> 00:19:39,130
Speaker 2: having to hold shame for how we met. But we

334
00:19:39,170 --> 00:19:42,530
Speaker 2: met because we were both mutually on the same website, right,

335
00:19:42,570 --> 00:19:45,290
Speaker 2: So like it was bizarre that somehow I was the

336
00:19:45,370 --> 00:19:47,410
Speaker 2: bad guy for being on that site, but he was

337
00:19:47,450 --> 00:19:51,810
Speaker 2: like the innocent bystander and just sort of refuted his

338
00:19:51,970 --> 00:19:56,290
Speaker 2: responsibility in being on that website as well. I didn't

339
00:19:56,290 --> 00:20:00,730
Speaker 2: share much of my life with him for probably eight

340
00:20:00,890 --> 00:20:04,930
Speaker 2: or so months before he met friends of mine. I

341
00:20:04,970 --> 00:20:11,170
Speaker 2: think there was an element of probably not knowing how

342
00:20:11,170 --> 00:20:15,810
Speaker 2: to explain to people the relationship. I was scared of

343
00:20:15,890 --> 00:20:20,530
Speaker 2: judgment because just based on looks, there was quite apparent

344
00:20:20,570 --> 00:20:24,170
Speaker 2: differences in our life. He was seventeen years older than

345
00:20:24,210 --> 00:20:27,650
Speaker 2: I was, so it was apparent to look at us

346
00:20:27,690 --> 00:20:32,810
Speaker 2: that were in different stages of our life. I didn't

347
00:20:32,810 --> 00:20:35,970
Speaker 2: know how I would explain to people that I had

348
00:20:36,050 --> 00:20:40,210
Speaker 2: met him. I suppose I didn't give my friends enough credit,

349
00:20:40,210 --> 00:20:42,650
Speaker 2: and I worried that they would be judgmental of his

350
00:20:42,730 --> 00:20:46,490
Speaker 2: appearance and sort of ask me, what are you doing,

351
00:20:46,810 --> 00:20:50,250
Speaker 2: Like why you know, you're young, and you're sort of

352
00:20:50,250 --> 00:20:52,490
Speaker 2: in this peak of your life and you've settled for

353
00:20:52,570 --> 00:20:55,610
Speaker 2: a bit of a dorky old man, and just I

354
00:20:55,610 --> 00:20:59,610
Speaker 2: suppose the way I had always met different people, it

355
00:20:59,730 --> 00:21:05,090
Speaker 2: was different to that. He self admit that he didn't

356
00:21:05,130 --> 00:21:07,850
Speaker 2: have many friends, Like his relationship with his wife, they

357
00:21:07,930 --> 00:21:10,290
Speaker 2: just lived in this love bubble where he just said

358
00:21:10,610 --> 00:21:12,650
Speaker 2: he didn't really have friends, she didn't, and they just

359
00:21:12,810 --> 00:21:15,930
Speaker 2: all they needed was each other. And I had a

360
00:21:16,050 --> 00:21:23,170
Speaker 2: huge friendship network. And he had also faced really significant

361
00:21:23,570 --> 00:21:28,850
Speaker 2: health problems his whole life, and so his twenties and

362
00:21:28,890 --> 00:21:31,850
Speaker 2: thirties looked really different to what mine did. His was

363
00:21:32,370 --> 00:21:35,410
Speaker 2: faced with sort of like constant hospitalizations, whereas I was

364
00:21:35,650 --> 00:21:38,650
Speaker 2: sort of really healthy and young and free and got

365
00:21:38,690 --> 00:21:40,570
Speaker 2: to go out with friends and do whatever I wanted.

366
00:21:40,650 --> 00:21:46,410
Speaker 2: So he wasn't exposed to the same world I was. Like.

367
00:21:46,450 --> 00:21:49,570
Speaker 2: I remember one day, out of the blue, he just

368
00:21:49,570 --> 00:21:52,410
Speaker 2: sent me a text message saying, is sex better on cocaine?

369
00:21:53,410 --> 00:21:57,090
Speaker 2: She just had never experienced these things like he didn't

370
00:21:57,130 --> 00:22:00,650
Speaker 2: drink alcohol at all, and he had never experimented with drugs,

371
00:22:00,690 --> 00:22:06,010
Speaker 2: and he just had this really sheltered life in some elements,

372
00:22:06,770 --> 00:22:11,570
Speaker 2: like of course his massive health stuff. He wasn't sheltered

373
00:22:11,690 --> 00:22:15,450
Speaker 2: from that, but he had never experienced his twenties and

374
00:22:15,490 --> 00:22:19,050
Speaker 2: thirties in the way I was. I think that he

375
00:22:19,130 --> 00:22:21,490
Speaker 2: would look at my life and sometimes he'd be like,

376
00:22:21,930 --> 00:22:24,930
Speaker 2: I can't believe you do these things. Like one time

377
00:22:24,970 --> 00:22:27,250
Speaker 2: we met up. It was one of my friend's birthdays,

378
00:22:27,290 --> 00:22:30,490
Speaker 2: and I was really reluctant to invite him, but I

379
00:22:30,490 --> 00:22:34,290
Speaker 2: also really wanted him to meet my friends. But unfortunately,

380
00:22:34,330 --> 00:22:36,170
Speaker 2: by the time he got there and I had way

381
00:22:36,210 --> 00:22:40,050
Speaker 2: too much to drink and ended up vomiting. And that

382
00:22:40,210 --> 00:22:43,210
Speaker 2: was like a first time for him of like experiencing

383
00:22:43,250 --> 00:22:46,050
Speaker 2: like going to a pub and like, oh, you're with

384
00:22:46,090 --> 00:22:48,090
Speaker 2: your girlfriend who you've got so drunk, she's vomited in

385
00:22:48,090 --> 00:22:51,810
Speaker 2: her hair. Like he just hadn't had those experiences before,

386
00:22:51,850 --> 00:22:55,730
Speaker 2: so it was new to him. And I think that

387
00:22:55,890 --> 00:22:57,370
Speaker 2: even though he was like, well that was a waste

388
00:22:57,370 --> 00:23:00,250
Speaker 2: of money, like why do I get Huber's there and back? Like,

389
00:23:00,530 --> 00:23:01,730
Speaker 2: I think he had fun.

390
00:23:02,410 --> 00:23:04,890
Speaker 1: Apart from the old pub night here and there it

391
00:23:04,970 --> 00:23:07,130
Speaker 1: was really just the two of them embarking on this

392
00:23:07,210 --> 00:23:10,530
Speaker 1: relationship for no one else but themselves and working out

393
00:23:10,610 --> 00:23:13,210
Speaker 1: if or how they could make it work long term.

394
00:23:14,050 --> 00:23:17,050
Speaker 2: We knew from a really early stage that what I

395
00:23:17,210 --> 00:23:19,850
Speaker 2: really wanted and craved was children, and I wanted to

396
00:23:19,890 --> 00:23:25,050
Speaker 2: have a baby, And when he was in the chaotic

397
00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:29,170
Speaker 2: I don't want to be alone desperate stage of grief,

398
00:23:29,210 --> 00:23:31,410
Speaker 2: he was like, yep, I'll give that to you, like

399
00:23:32,330 --> 00:23:35,210
Speaker 2: of course, like we'd talk about babies names, and he

400
00:23:35,330 --> 00:23:37,490
Speaker 2: was like. We met at a cafe once and he

401
00:23:37,530 --> 00:23:40,610
Speaker 2: said I'm all in, Like whatever you want, I'm one

402
00:23:40,650 --> 00:23:44,330
Speaker 2: hundred percent in. And I was like, oh my god,

403
00:23:44,530 --> 00:23:47,730
Speaker 2: like he's all in with me, like I can get

404
00:23:47,890 --> 00:23:53,530
Speaker 2: this entire life with him. And then over time, as

405
00:23:53,570 --> 00:23:57,410
Speaker 2: he waded through the grief he was feeling, he sort

406
00:23:57,410 --> 00:23:59,410
Speaker 2: of came to me and he said, look, I'm actually

407
00:23:59,770 --> 00:24:02,730
Speaker 2: never going to have a baby with you, and I

408
00:24:02,730 --> 00:24:07,530
Speaker 2: don't want to get remarried. I didn't take him seriously

409
00:24:07,570 --> 00:24:10,170
Speaker 2: for quite some time, and it was always a conversation

410
00:24:10,290 --> 00:24:12,650
Speaker 2: we'd have and then we'd put it away. We'd just

411
00:24:12,690 --> 00:24:16,010
Speaker 2: sort of very much sweep it under the rug, like okay, well,

412
00:24:16,010 --> 00:24:19,410
Speaker 2: that's not a today issue anyway, We've got time. We

413
00:24:19,450 --> 00:24:21,170
Speaker 2: don't need to work this all out now, you know

414
00:24:21,530 --> 00:24:24,170
Speaker 2: what couple plants having kids in the first twelve months anyway,

415
00:24:24,330 --> 00:24:28,490
Speaker 2: kind of think. So that sort of where things were

416
00:24:28,530 --> 00:24:32,730
Speaker 2: at where I think we're both hoping the other person

417
00:24:32,730 --> 00:24:39,530
Speaker 2: would negotiate, and he would he would come up with suggestions,

418
00:24:39,530 --> 00:24:41,650
Speaker 2: I suppose, like he'd be like, why don't you use

419
00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:44,290
Speaker 2: a sperm downer? And then the baby's not technically mine,

420
00:24:44,370 --> 00:24:47,490
Speaker 2: but I'd still help you raise it. But it was

421
00:24:47,610 --> 00:24:50,650
Speaker 2: just that he wasn't prepared to have another baby because

422
00:24:50,650 --> 00:24:53,890
Speaker 2: there was lots of milestones in life he didn't want

423
00:24:53,890 --> 00:24:56,330
Speaker 2: to experience with another woman like he had them with

424
00:24:56,410 --> 00:24:59,570
Speaker 2: his wife, and he had a sense of loyalty to

425
00:24:59,650 --> 00:25:04,290
Speaker 2: not doing them again. And also his age was a factor.

426
00:25:04,330 --> 00:25:07,010
Speaker 2: He said, my kids have grown like I've nearly done

427
00:25:07,050 --> 00:25:09,770
Speaker 2: my job as a parent. He's only got a couple

428
00:25:09,770 --> 00:25:11,890
Speaker 2: of years left with his youngest, and he said, I'm

429
00:25:11,930 --> 00:25:15,850
Speaker 2: not doing that. I'm not starting from scratch, Like I'm

430
00:25:15,850 --> 00:25:17,650
Speaker 2: not young enough and I'm not fit enough, and i

431
00:25:17,690 --> 00:25:19,650
Speaker 2: don't have it in me to be awake all night

432
00:25:19,650 --> 00:25:24,370
Speaker 2: with a crying baby. So yeah, it was It was

433
00:25:24,490 --> 00:25:27,410
Speaker 2: just a long time of both of us trying to

434
00:25:27,770 --> 00:25:30,370
Speaker 2: negotiate and hope that the other would change their mind.

435
00:25:31,650 --> 00:25:34,210
Speaker 2: I was convinced I could change his mind for a

436
00:25:34,250 --> 00:25:38,170
Speaker 2: really long time. I thought, no, like, you're going to

437
00:25:38,210 --> 00:25:41,690
Speaker 2: love me enough to want all of this with me.

438
00:25:42,770 --> 00:25:45,010
Speaker 1: And he really did love her. They wouldn't go a

439
00:25:45,090 --> 00:25:48,050
Speaker 1: day without speaking, and soon enough without seeing each other,

440
00:25:48,370 --> 00:25:51,330
Speaker 1: which of course at a point meant also meeting his kids.

441
00:25:51,570 --> 00:25:54,570
Speaker 2: But I met them, probably by the August. I think

442
00:25:54,610 --> 00:25:57,330
Speaker 2: he introduced the idea to his kids as like I

443
00:25:57,370 --> 00:26:02,530
Speaker 2: was just a nice friend, and they were so gracious

444
00:26:02,770 --> 00:26:06,490
Speaker 2: in meeting me. They were lovely. I was very lucky

445
00:26:07,650 --> 00:26:10,330
Speaker 2: in that space. I mean I was. We would always

446
00:26:10,410 --> 00:26:13,170
Speaker 2: joke because I was actually closer in age to his

447
00:26:13,250 --> 00:26:17,690
Speaker 2: son than I was to him. But yeah, his kids

448
00:26:17,730 --> 00:26:22,650
Speaker 2: were really accepting of me. I think they knew, probably

449
00:26:22,690 --> 00:26:26,530
Speaker 2: not straight away, but over time they became aware that

450
00:26:26,730 --> 00:26:29,730
Speaker 2: we really cared for each other and that we were

451
00:26:29,770 --> 00:26:33,850
Speaker 2: sort of in a relationship. I remember I felt like

452
00:26:34,730 --> 00:26:36,650
Speaker 2: in my mind, I was like, it's too soon. But

453
00:26:36,730 --> 00:26:39,290
Speaker 2: who was I to tell him what decisions to make

454
00:26:39,330 --> 00:26:41,090
Speaker 2: with his own children. I was like, oh my god,

455
00:26:41,330 --> 00:26:43,650
Speaker 2: Like he'd text me one day and he said, like,

456
00:26:43,690 --> 00:26:46,970
Speaker 2: I told my kids about you today, and I was like, WHOA,

457
00:26:47,370 --> 00:26:52,090
Speaker 2: Like what do you mean? You know this is wild, but.

458
00:26:52,050 --> 00:26:54,690
Speaker 1: There was still something holding him back from bringing her

459
00:26:54,690 --> 00:26:57,810
Speaker 1: into his life one hundred percent. It was pretty obvious

460
00:26:57,850 --> 00:26:59,010
Speaker 1: to see the elephant in the room.

461
00:26:59,570 --> 00:27:03,330
Speaker 2: I always felt a bit like an impostor in his

462
00:27:03,450 --> 00:27:07,210
Speaker 2: life because I knew I wasn't the person he wanted there.

463
00:27:07,490 --> 00:27:10,970
Speaker 2: So I always sat with that knowledge that he would,

464
00:27:11,770 --> 00:27:14,330
Speaker 2: you know, like kick me out the door in an

465
00:27:14,370 --> 00:27:17,010
Speaker 2: instant if he could get the person back he wanted

466
00:27:17,330 --> 00:27:21,490
Speaker 2: in that room with him. I grew to live with that,

467
00:27:21,650 --> 00:27:24,770
Speaker 2: and I grew to know that that was the all

468
00:27:24,810 --> 00:27:27,330
Speaker 2: I could ask of him. I couldn't ask of him

469
00:27:27,810 --> 00:27:30,930
Speaker 2: to reassure me that he would pick me over her

470
00:27:31,290 --> 00:27:33,890
Speaker 2: or anything like that, because that was so unreasonable. So

471
00:27:33,970 --> 00:27:38,050
Speaker 2: I just had to accept my space in his life

472
00:27:38,090 --> 00:27:40,490
Speaker 2: and that was all he could offer me. But it

473
00:27:40,530 --> 00:27:44,530
Speaker 2: was hard because for me, he was everything. He had

474
00:27:44,650 --> 00:27:48,930
Speaker 2: a milestone birthday, his fiftieth birthday, and he was sort

475
00:27:48,930 --> 00:27:52,170
Speaker 2: of planning it and he made a comment like, oh,

476
00:27:52,290 --> 00:27:55,770
Speaker 2: you might be invited, and I laughed, and I thought,

477
00:27:56,370 --> 00:27:58,930
Speaker 2: this man is joking. What do you mean I might

478
00:27:58,970 --> 00:28:01,050
Speaker 2: be invited, and I thought he was being a bit silly,

479
00:28:01,130 --> 00:28:04,450
Speaker 2: and then his son sort of like chuckled nervously, and

480
00:28:04,490 --> 00:28:07,290
Speaker 2: I was like, are you serious, And he just said, like,

481
00:28:07,650 --> 00:28:10,290
Speaker 2: I just don't know if I can face the judgment

482
00:28:10,850 --> 00:28:15,690
Speaker 2: from all of my friends to know that I've partnered. Yeah,

483
00:28:15,730 --> 00:28:18,850
Speaker 2: I'd always been very understanding and very respectful of my

484
00:28:18,970 --> 00:28:23,290
Speaker 2: place in his life. But I was devastated, Like I thought,

485
00:28:23,730 --> 00:28:26,450
Speaker 2: how can you not invite me? So he did end

486
00:28:26,530 --> 00:28:31,010
Speaker 2: up inviting me, and I went to his fiftieth birthday

487
00:28:31,050 --> 00:28:34,410
Speaker 2: and met all of his family and all of his friends.

488
00:28:34,770 --> 00:28:39,250
Speaker 2: I was just introduced as Carli. I wasn't introduced as

489
00:28:39,730 --> 00:28:42,410
Speaker 2: like this is my girlfriend or my friend. He just

490
00:28:42,730 --> 00:28:44,970
Speaker 2: introduced me by name, and that was all there was

491
00:28:45,010 --> 00:28:45,330
Speaker 2: to it.

492
00:28:47,330 --> 00:28:50,290
Speaker 1: James also never fully committed to have Carly move in

493
00:28:50,330 --> 00:28:52,970
Speaker 1: with him, not even after more than a year together.

494
00:28:53,490 --> 00:28:55,770
Speaker 2: In the early days, he was like, just pack up

495
00:28:55,850 --> 00:28:59,890
Speaker 2: and move on in and I was like, no, that's

496
00:29:00,570 --> 00:29:04,010
Speaker 2: not reasonable. And then after about twelve months he was

497
00:29:04,010 --> 00:29:05,770
Speaker 2: sort of like, I don't actually know if I'll ever

498
00:29:05,810 --> 00:29:08,970
Speaker 2: want to live with you, but I have. He owned

499
00:29:09,090 --> 00:29:12,930
Speaker 2: multiple properties and he said I've got this one property

500
00:29:12,970 --> 00:29:15,490
Speaker 2: it's really local, and I'll let you live in it

501
00:29:15,570 --> 00:29:17,290
Speaker 2: and you can just pay two hundred dollars a week

502
00:29:17,370 --> 00:29:21,090
Speaker 2: rent so we can live near each other. And I'm

503
00:29:21,130 --> 00:29:23,850
Speaker 2: self employed for work and all of my clients and

504
00:29:23,890 --> 00:29:27,330
Speaker 2: my work is really close to home. And I said, well,

505
00:29:27,370 --> 00:29:30,890
Speaker 2: that means giving up all of my clients, and I'm

506
00:29:30,930 --> 00:29:34,450
Speaker 2: giving up living in the same sort of regional part

507
00:29:34,490 --> 00:29:37,090
Speaker 2: of town as all my family and all my friends

508
00:29:37,290 --> 00:29:40,650
Speaker 2: to live alone in one of your units, but not

509
00:29:40,810 --> 00:29:45,170
Speaker 2: with you. So I was like, no, thank you, you know, respectfully, no,

510
00:29:46,170 --> 00:29:47,730
Speaker 2: you know, And I know that that was him trying

511
00:29:47,730 --> 00:29:51,650
Speaker 2: to compromise, but I don't think he saw the bigger

512
00:29:51,690 --> 00:29:53,810
Speaker 2: picture that I wasn't moving an hour and a half

513
00:29:53,850 --> 00:29:55,090
Speaker 2: away to live by myself.

514
00:29:55,810 --> 00:29:58,930
Speaker 1: Carlie understood the intricacies of the relationship they were in.

515
00:29:59,210 --> 00:30:01,210
Speaker 1: She knew it wasn't cut and dry and was never

516
00:30:01,250 --> 00:30:03,290
Speaker 1: going to be as simple as meeting someone her own

517
00:30:03,330 --> 00:30:06,650
Speaker 1: age who hadn't recently lost someone. But she knew they

518
00:30:06,650 --> 00:30:10,170
Speaker 1: were deeply in love. If she could be patient and understanding,

519
00:30:10,250 --> 00:30:13,010
Speaker 1: so would he. He was her future and she is.

520
00:30:13,930 --> 00:30:17,970
Speaker 2: The baby conversation had been one that was ongoing, and

521
00:30:18,050 --> 00:30:24,090
Speaker 2: another conversation that wasn't ongoing, but just for context, was

522
00:30:24,090 --> 00:30:29,690
Speaker 2: that he is a multi millionaire and has a very

523
00:30:29,890 --> 00:30:33,730
Speaker 2: vast property portfolio and sort of lives just off the

524
00:30:33,850 --> 00:30:37,330
Speaker 2: interest of his investments. He doesn't need to earn money,

525
00:30:37,370 --> 00:30:40,450
Speaker 2: and he lives a very comfortable life. And he had

526
00:30:40,490 --> 00:30:45,250
Speaker 2: always said to me from the start that that money

527
00:30:45,370 --> 00:30:48,050
Speaker 2: was for his children and that no matter who he

528
00:30:48,210 --> 00:30:51,090
Speaker 2: ended up partnered with or in a relationship with like

529
00:30:51,490 --> 00:30:55,330
Speaker 2: that money would be protected from any partner in the future.

530
00:30:55,930 --> 00:30:59,410
Speaker 2: And he was always very clear about that as well.

531
00:31:00,730 --> 00:31:06,050
Speaker 2: And so it got to a point where I probably

532
00:31:06,050 --> 00:31:08,370
Speaker 2: shouldn't have done this, but I had sent him a

533
00:31:08,370 --> 00:31:11,490
Speaker 2: screenshot of like a period tracking app saying my p

534
00:31:12,010 --> 00:31:15,170
Speaker 2: was one day late, and I sort of jokingly said like,

535
00:31:15,450 --> 00:31:18,770
Speaker 2: oh god, what have you done? And he just went

536
00:31:18,810 --> 00:31:25,410
Speaker 2: straight into panic mode. He called me and is like, well,

537
00:31:25,450 --> 00:31:28,450
Speaker 2: what are you going to do? And then he accused

538
00:31:28,450 --> 00:31:30,570
Speaker 2: me of sort of like baby trapping him into this,

539
00:31:31,090 --> 00:31:35,450
Speaker 2: into having a baby, and he said, I'm going to

540
00:31:35,570 --> 00:31:40,090
Speaker 2: put all of my assets into the trusts that are

541
00:31:40,090 --> 00:31:42,650
Speaker 2: in my kids' names, and you're the baby won't see

542
00:31:43,010 --> 00:31:45,930
Speaker 2: anything from me, Like you're not taking my money for

543
00:31:45,970 --> 00:31:49,450
Speaker 2: this baby. Oh, and then he also said and also

544
00:31:49,530 --> 00:31:53,130
Speaker 2: I'd need a paternity test. And I was just like ropeable,

545
00:31:53,290 --> 00:31:55,730
Speaker 2: and I said, you know what I will do is

546
00:31:55,730 --> 00:31:58,330
Speaker 2: I will fuck your life up. You have no idea

547
00:31:58,330 --> 00:32:00,570
Speaker 2: how much I will fuck your life up. And I

548
00:32:00,610 --> 00:32:02,850
Speaker 2: will fuck up your perfect little trust funds. And if

549
00:32:02,890 --> 00:32:05,170
Speaker 2: you've got three kids, there will be three trust funds.

550
00:32:05,210 --> 00:32:07,930
Speaker 2: There won't just be two any more. And We've hung

551
00:32:08,010 --> 00:32:12,210
Speaker 2: up the phone, enraged, in rage really each other and

552
00:32:12,250 --> 00:32:23,010
Speaker 2: didn't speak for days. It felt awful because I felt

553
00:32:23,010 --> 00:32:26,610
Speaker 2: like he was reducing all the love I had for him,

554
00:32:27,010 --> 00:32:30,610
Speaker 2: was just coming down to his money. And I was thinking, like,

555
00:32:31,130 --> 00:32:33,970
Speaker 2: I spend six hours a week in my car to

556
00:32:34,050 --> 00:32:37,650
Speaker 2: see you. How could you say this is about money,

557
00:32:37,770 --> 00:32:40,650
Speaker 2: or if it was, like I would have stopped seeing

558
00:32:40,690 --> 00:32:44,410
Speaker 2: you ten months ago when you stopped paying me, Like

559
00:32:44,610 --> 00:32:50,490
Speaker 2: I was so offended by the whole suggestion. Really, I

560
00:32:50,530 --> 00:32:53,370
Speaker 2: never questioned the rest of our relationship. I knew that

561
00:32:53,410 --> 00:32:56,290
Speaker 2: he just had big reactions to things when they happened,

562
00:32:56,450 --> 00:32:59,250
Speaker 2: and that was a theme, like he would just blow

563
00:32:59,370 --> 00:33:04,850
Speaker 2: up and then get over it really quickly. So I

564
00:33:04,890 --> 00:33:07,490
Speaker 2: didn't question the rest of the relationship or how he

565
00:33:07,570 --> 00:33:11,290
Speaker 2: felt about me. But it made me mad because I

566
00:33:11,330 --> 00:33:13,610
Speaker 2: didn't like what else was I meant to have done

567
00:33:13,610 --> 00:33:19,330
Speaker 2: to have proved how much I loved him. This is

568
00:33:19,530 --> 00:33:26,530
Speaker 2: where I'm going to cry. We didn't speak for a

569
00:33:26,570 --> 00:33:31,650
Speaker 2: few days, and we spoke again and he said, I

570
00:33:31,650 --> 00:33:33,130
Speaker 2: think it was like, how would you feel about going

571
00:33:33,130 --> 00:33:36,130
Speaker 2: out for dinner or something? And we didn't end up

572
00:33:36,170 --> 00:33:38,730
Speaker 2: going out for dinner. We ended up meeting at his house,

573
00:33:40,130 --> 00:33:51,010
Speaker 2: and we just knew it was the end going there.

574
00:33:51,050 --> 00:33:54,250
Speaker 2: I knew that that was it for us.

575
00:33:55,530 --> 00:34:01,930
Speaker 3: So we just held each other and I just told

576
00:34:01,970 --> 00:34:08,890
Speaker 3: him how much I loved him, and how grateful I

577
00:34:09,090 --> 00:34:11,250
Speaker 3: was that he had saved my life and put it

578
00:34:11,330 --> 00:34:16,530
Speaker 3: back track, and that he had healed me in so

579
00:34:16,650 --> 00:34:23,090
Speaker 3: many ways, and everything was forgiven and there was no anger,

580
00:34:24,370 --> 00:34:31,770
Speaker 3: and we just left loving each other but knowing ultimately

581
00:34:31,850 --> 00:34:35,890
Speaker 3: that we wanted and needed different things in life and

582
00:34:36,650 --> 00:34:40,010
Speaker 3: that was just how it needed to be. He was

583
00:34:40,090 --> 00:34:44,370
Speaker 3: amazing during that conversation, so I just sort of lay

584
00:34:44,410 --> 00:34:50,330
Speaker 3: in his arms, just crying. And it was the first

585
00:34:50,370 --> 00:34:51,050
Speaker 3: time that.

586
00:34:52,450 --> 00:34:56,810
Speaker 2: I didn't try to change myself to make things better,

587
00:34:56,930 --> 00:34:59,970
Speaker 2: like every other time we'd fight about a baby, I

588
00:35:00,010 --> 00:35:04,450
Speaker 2: would say to him, I've been living without a baby

589
00:35:04,490 --> 00:35:07,730
Speaker 2: I don't have one now, and I'm okay, but I

590
00:35:07,850 --> 00:35:10,650
Speaker 2: have you, and I can't be okay with you. So

591
00:35:10,770 --> 00:35:14,730
Speaker 2: I used to say, look at me, I'm already living

592
00:35:14,770 --> 00:35:18,170
Speaker 2: without a baby, but I couldn't live without you. And

593
00:35:18,730 --> 00:35:21,330
Speaker 2: the last time we saw each other was the only

594
00:35:21,410 --> 00:35:25,370
Speaker 2: time I realized I needed to get what I wanted

595
00:35:25,370 --> 00:35:30,370
Speaker 2: out life. I think that he had built me up

596
00:35:30,490 --> 00:35:36,570
Speaker 2: enough that I didn't need him, and I think he

597
00:35:36,730 --> 00:35:38,490
Speaker 2: was a bit of like a safety net for me

598
00:35:38,570 --> 00:35:42,130
Speaker 2: because he did. He just always made me so calm.

599
00:35:43,490 --> 00:35:45,050
Speaker 2: I didn't want to let go of any of it.

600
00:35:45,210 --> 00:35:49,930
Speaker 2: The safety and the security and the containment and everything

601
00:35:49,970 --> 00:35:55,450
Speaker 2: that I had never felt before. I couldn't imagine life

602
00:35:55,490 --> 00:35:58,770
Speaker 2: without him, because more than anything, he was just my

603
00:35:58,930 --> 00:36:01,730
Speaker 2: very best friend. He was the person I could talk

604
00:36:01,810 --> 00:36:07,010
Speaker 2: to about everything, and he was the biggest part of

605
00:36:07,530 --> 00:36:11,410
Speaker 2: every day of my life. The drive home was rough.

606
00:36:12,210 --> 00:36:16,610
Speaker 2: I remember needing to leave. It was sort of at

607
00:36:16,650 --> 00:36:18,410
Speaker 2: the point where it's like there's nothing left to say

608
00:36:18,450 --> 00:36:21,330
Speaker 2: and there's nothing left to do. I need to leave,

609
00:36:22,970 --> 00:36:26,570
Speaker 2: And the thought of leaving his house knowing I was

610
00:36:26,610 --> 00:36:31,130
Speaker 2: never going back was sickening, Like I was like my

611
00:36:31,290 --> 00:36:33,490
Speaker 2: legs were shaking, and I just felt like I couldn't

612
00:36:33,810 --> 00:36:41,690
Speaker 2: walk to his front door. Of course, we were still talking,

613
00:36:42,330 --> 00:36:48,490
Speaker 2: not every day and not consistently, but I would still

614
00:36:48,810 --> 00:36:51,890
Speaker 2: reach out to him. I think I was reaching out

615
00:36:51,890 --> 00:36:54,930
Speaker 2: to him to try to get those feelings of being

616
00:36:55,050 --> 00:37:01,410
Speaker 2: safe back. So after we stopped speaking, I started experiencing

617
00:37:02,090 --> 00:37:06,850
Speaker 2: horrendous anxiety at nighttime, just horrendous, like I was feeling

618
00:37:06,890 --> 00:37:11,370
Speaker 2: like nauseated and I couldn't sleep, And it was debilitating

619
00:37:11,370 --> 00:37:14,890
Speaker 2: every or to get this anxiety. So some nights I'd

620
00:37:14,890 --> 00:37:16,490
Speaker 2: call him just to make it go away.

621
00:37:17,250 --> 00:37:20,530
Speaker 1: It was the worst heartbreak she'd ever experienced, but she

622
00:37:20,610 --> 00:37:22,770
Speaker 1: didn't even feel like she had anyone to lean on.

623
00:37:23,210 --> 00:37:28,130
Speaker 2: It was difficult. So because of his jealousy and some

624
00:37:28,210 --> 00:37:31,250
Speaker 2: of the fights we had, he could be quite insensitive

625
00:37:31,370 --> 00:37:35,610
Speaker 2: at times as well. He would just make comments without

626
00:37:35,770 --> 00:37:40,010
Speaker 2: thinking about them. So one time, if we're sitting on

627
00:37:40,050 --> 00:37:41,890
Speaker 2: the couch, I got put my legs up on him,

628
00:37:41,890 --> 00:37:45,010
Speaker 2: and he referred to my legs as feeling like concrete

629
00:37:45,050 --> 00:37:49,650
Speaker 2: stumps or all of the trust issues we had, a

630
00:37:49,690 --> 00:37:51,610
Speaker 2: lot of my friends were sort of like red flag,

631
00:37:51,770 --> 00:37:54,810
Speaker 2: like you need to leave him, Like this isn't good,

632
00:37:54,930 --> 00:37:58,610
Speaker 2: Like he's mean about your appearance, and he doesn't trust

633
00:37:58,650 --> 00:38:02,050
Speaker 2: you and you don't deserve that. But I just I

634
00:38:02,090 --> 00:38:04,930
Speaker 2: saw through all of that because I saw no malice.

635
00:38:04,970 --> 00:38:07,970
Speaker 2: Like I didn't think he's got trust issues because he's

636
00:38:07,970 --> 00:38:10,370
Speaker 2: a red flag. I thought he's a man who hasn't

637
00:38:10,490 --> 00:38:14,690
Speaker 2: dated in thirty years and he's come from the comfort

638
00:38:14,850 --> 00:38:17,730
Speaker 2: of a I think it was a twenty three year marriage.

639
00:38:18,410 --> 00:38:20,530
Speaker 2: Of course, he's going to be jealous when he's dating

640
00:38:21,730 --> 00:38:26,130
Speaker 2: a thirty year old who's attractive and young, and like,

641
00:38:26,970 --> 00:38:30,410
Speaker 2: I just felt like almost a compliment that he was jealous.

642
00:38:30,450 --> 00:38:32,690
Speaker 2: Like I didn't see it as like a red flag

643
00:38:32,730 --> 00:38:35,730
Speaker 2: that all my friends did. So by the time it

644
00:38:35,810 --> 00:38:37,810
Speaker 2: came to an end, my friends were well and truly

645
00:38:37,890 --> 00:38:43,170
Speaker 2: over hearing about what was going on. Anyway, they were

646
00:38:43,210 --> 00:38:46,490
Speaker 2: sort of like, you know, you deserve better. And it's

647
00:38:46,530 --> 00:38:49,530
Speaker 2: not that I didn't think I deserved better, because I

648
00:38:49,570 --> 00:38:56,130
Speaker 2: think he is amazing, But it was just like they

649
00:38:56,170 --> 00:39:01,130
Speaker 2: didn't see what I saw. I guess no one knew

650
00:39:01,490 --> 00:39:02,330
Speaker 2: what he meant to me.

651
00:39:04,490 --> 00:39:07,010
Speaker 1: The weeks went by with Carli trying to heal on

652
00:39:07,050 --> 00:39:09,730
Speaker 1: her own and look ahead to a life without James.

653
00:39:10,090 --> 00:39:13,050
Speaker 1: Over time, she stopped calling him. She knew she had

654
00:39:13,090 --> 00:39:15,050
Speaker 1: to do this on her own and she had to

655
00:39:15,090 --> 00:39:17,530
Speaker 1: let go, and soon enough he helped her do that.

656
00:39:18,210 --> 00:39:20,370
Speaker 2: One thing was that we had always sort of made

657
00:39:20,410 --> 00:39:22,730
Speaker 2: an agreement that neither of us would ever go back

658
00:39:22,770 --> 00:39:25,690
Speaker 2: on the website where we found each other, like it

659
00:39:25,770 --> 00:39:27,770
Speaker 2: was so detrimental to both of us, and were like,

660
00:39:27,810 --> 00:39:29,690
Speaker 2: we can neither of us can ever go back there.

661
00:39:30,770 --> 00:39:34,690
Speaker 2: And he sent me a text after maybe three weeks saying,

662
00:39:35,970 --> 00:39:40,130
Speaker 2: so I had asked for space. I said, I'm not

663
00:39:40,170 --> 00:39:43,490
Speaker 2: going to be able to sort of let go of

664
00:39:43,530 --> 00:39:46,450
Speaker 2: this if we keep being best friends and we keep talking.

665
00:39:47,690 --> 00:39:52,210
Speaker 2: And he texted me saying, you know, I know you

666
00:39:52,250 --> 00:39:54,210
Speaker 2: asked for space, but I just want to I think

667
00:39:54,250 --> 00:39:59,010
Speaker 2: you should know that I've signed up to RSVP, And

668
00:39:59,050 --> 00:40:04,370
Speaker 2: that was like relief for me, Like I felt like, okay,

669
00:40:04,570 --> 00:40:09,330
Speaker 2: like he's really closing the door. Now I can move

670
00:40:09,370 --> 00:40:15,890
Speaker 2: on with my life because he is. And I think

671
00:40:16,010 --> 00:40:21,250
Speaker 2: because he always had that jealousy and he, you know,

672
00:40:21,410 --> 00:40:23,890
Speaker 2: never quite believed that I loved him. I didn't want

673
00:40:23,930 --> 00:40:25,570
Speaker 2: to be the first one to make a big move

674
00:40:26,530 --> 00:40:29,930
Speaker 2: in life because I could just picture him thinking in

675
00:40:29,930 --> 00:40:32,050
Speaker 2: his frain like oh she had that planned all along,

676
00:40:32,250 --> 00:40:36,450
Speaker 2: or and I just I was really a relief when

677
00:40:36,450 --> 00:40:38,810
Speaker 2: he told me he was going to start dating again.

678
00:40:38,930 --> 00:40:42,490
Speaker 2: I thought, great, like you've set me free, Like I

679
00:40:43,250 --> 00:40:46,810
Speaker 2: can be free now because you are. There were a

680
00:40:46,850 --> 00:40:50,090
Speaker 2: few times where we'd gotten into our fights and I

681
00:40:50,090 --> 00:40:53,890
Speaker 2: had felt relief when we had said, Okay, well we

682
00:40:53,930 --> 00:40:56,970
Speaker 2: want different things, we'll just break up, And in the moment,

683
00:40:57,290 --> 00:41:02,570
Speaker 2: nearly every time i'd feel relief. I think because I

684
00:41:02,690 --> 00:41:07,810
Speaker 2: knew that I would never get the whole big picture

685
00:41:07,850 --> 00:41:11,370
Speaker 2: of what I wanted out of life with him, and

686
00:41:11,450 --> 00:41:15,450
Speaker 2: so I knew that I was giving up giving up

687
00:41:15,490 --> 00:41:19,490
Speaker 2: some really big things to be with him. It felt

688
00:41:19,570 --> 00:41:23,010
Speaker 2: really freeing, and it felt like the relationship had served

689
00:41:23,010 --> 00:41:27,290
Speaker 2: a purpose, and that purpose was going to be lifelong,

690
00:41:27,610 --> 00:41:30,050
Speaker 2: like he had helped me for the rest of my life.

691
00:41:31,170 --> 00:41:34,730
Speaker 2: I think it's just because we crammed so much into

692
00:41:34,970 --> 00:41:41,210
Speaker 2: sort of eighteen months of healing for each other. The

693
00:41:41,330 --> 00:41:45,170
Speaker 2: version of him that I met was so far away

694
00:41:45,170 --> 00:41:48,690
Speaker 2: from the version of him that we left each other

695
00:41:48,770 --> 00:41:54,570
Speaker 2: at as well. He was okay to be alone by

696
00:41:54,610 --> 00:41:59,090
Speaker 2: the time we stopped seeing each other, whereas at the

697
00:41:59,170 --> 00:42:04,810
Speaker 2: start he was paying women frequently for their time. And

698
00:42:04,850 --> 00:42:07,690
Speaker 2: he's okay alone now, which is really nice.

699
00:42:08,770 --> 00:42:11,530
Speaker 1: It's been two years now since James and Carly split

700
00:42:11,850 --> 00:42:14,490
Speaker 1: and she's doing well too. They still speak from time

701
00:42:14,530 --> 00:42:17,730
Speaker 1: to time. That's one thing she doesn't think will ever change.

702
00:42:18,290 --> 00:42:20,610
Speaker 2: So I think that the love I have for him

703
00:42:20,850 --> 00:42:23,770
Speaker 2: is it's just something I'm not willing to compromise on

704
00:42:24,450 --> 00:42:27,650
Speaker 2: at this stage. You'll probably ever Like you know, I

705
00:42:27,650 --> 00:42:30,250
Speaker 2: feel quite assertive in all of my relationships and that

706
00:42:30,290 --> 00:42:34,330
Speaker 2: I'm able to say the important people who I sort

707
00:42:34,330 --> 00:42:36,770
Speaker 2: of non negotiables in my life, and here's one of them.

708
00:42:37,850 --> 00:42:41,610
Speaker 2: It's just knowing he's there that's nice, and knowing that

709
00:42:42,610 --> 00:42:44,730
Speaker 2: I know that if I called him, he'd always be

710
00:42:44,850 --> 00:42:49,730
Speaker 2: there for me. On that last time we saw each other,

711
00:42:49,810 --> 00:42:52,170
Speaker 2: he did say like when I do have a baby,

712
00:42:52,290 --> 00:42:54,970
Speaker 2: like he'll come and see my baby and he'll be

713
00:42:55,010 --> 00:43:00,530
Speaker 2: so happy for me. Healing from him occurred while I

714
00:43:00,570 --> 00:43:05,490
Speaker 2: was still with him, because the experience I had with

715
00:43:05,610 --> 00:43:10,850
Speaker 2: him built me up to being a stronger person. I

716
00:43:10,890 --> 00:43:14,810
Speaker 2: think he helped me with multiple things, But one of

717
00:43:14,810 --> 00:43:21,810
Speaker 2: my biggest takeaways is that I realized how many people

718
00:43:21,850 --> 00:43:24,770
Speaker 2: I probably never gave the time of day two I

719
00:43:24,810 --> 00:43:28,010
Speaker 2: know for sure, like if he had just met me

720
00:43:28,090 --> 00:43:30,490
Speaker 2: in a bar and asked to buy me a drink,

721
00:43:30,650 --> 00:43:33,690
Speaker 2: like I would have said, no, I'm not interested, just

722
00:43:33,730 --> 00:43:36,690
Speaker 2: based on his appearance. I had to do a lot

723
00:43:36,690 --> 00:43:39,730
Speaker 2: of reflection on like how I got to that point,

724
00:43:39,890 --> 00:43:43,410
Speaker 2: How many people have I missed out on amazing opportunities

725
00:43:43,410 --> 00:43:46,570
Speaker 2: with because I was I wouldn't call myself shallow, but

726
00:43:47,650 --> 00:43:50,090
Speaker 2: I definitely had a type that I would pay more

727
00:43:50,130 --> 00:43:54,650
Speaker 2: attention to than others. And unfortunately, if our relationship hadn't

728
00:43:54,650 --> 00:43:57,010
Speaker 2: started by him paying me, I wouldn't have got to

729
00:43:57,050 --> 00:44:00,090
Speaker 2: know him as a person, and I wouldn't have found

730
00:44:00,130 --> 00:44:04,570
Speaker 2: one of my soulmates in this world. So he's definitely

731
00:44:04,610 --> 00:44:08,890
Speaker 2: taught me to give everyone a chance in life. Because

732
00:44:09,930 --> 00:44:14,330
Speaker 2: we didn't have similar interests or hobbies or definitely didn't

733
00:44:14,370 --> 00:44:18,490
Speaker 2: have similar political or social views at all, but he

734
00:44:18,610 --> 00:44:21,370
Speaker 2: was my best friend. And you know, I'm a believer

735
00:44:21,450 --> 00:44:26,090
Speaker 2: that you have sort of like multiple soulmates in your life,

736
00:44:26,090 --> 00:44:28,490
Speaker 2: and I like, I'm really confident that he was one

737
00:44:28,530 --> 00:44:31,850
Speaker 2: of mine and that we needed to meet. I think

738
00:44:31,890 --> 00:44:35,610
Speaker 2: that my story is important because of how much I

739
00:44:35,770 --> 00:44:38,930
Speaker 2: learned about beauty only being skin deep and all of

740
00:44:38,930 --> 00:44:41,970
Speaker 2: those other sayings that you hear growing up. But I

741
00:44:42,050 --> 00:44:46,930
Speaker 2: didn't realize how true they were until this relationship, and

742
00:44:47,690 --> 00:44:51,410
Speaker 2: I didn't realize how much I needed to reevaluate my

743
00:44:51,450 --> 00:44:55,890
Speaker 2: own morals and my own values and looking at the

744
00:44:55,930 --> 00:45:01,050
Speaker 2: importance of relationships for me, because if I had missed

745
00:45:01,050 --> 00:45:04,250
Speaker 2: out on this one, I would just hate to think

746
00:45:05,050 --> 00:45:08,930
Speaker 2: where things would have ended up. I think I healed

747
00:45:08,970 --> 00:45:14,250
Speaker 2: a lot by knowing him, by knowing that there is

748
00:45:14,330 --> 00:45:18,810
Speaker 2: this like, there's feelings of safety that I can achieve,

749
00:45:19,970 --> 00:45:22,330
Speaker 2: and if I achieve them with him, then I can

750
00:45:22,410 --> 00:45:26,410
Speaker 2: do them by myself or with other people. So it

751
00:45:26,490 --> 00:45:30,610
Speaker 2: was nice. I definitely feel a lot more secure in

752
00:45:30,650 --> 00:45:36,130
Speaker 2: who I am that I don't have this need for

753
00:45:36,170 --> 00:45:40,370
Speaker 2: everyone to love me like I used to. It used

754
00:45:40,370 --> 00:45:45,970
Speaker 2: to be so consuming that I didn't believe people could

755
00:45:46,010 --> 00:45:49,210
Speaker 2: ever love me enough. I felt like people loved me

756
00:45:49,370 --> 00:45:55,370
Speaker 2: out of obligation to love me, and he definitely showed

757
00:45:55,410 --> 00:45:59,050
Speaker 2: me that that wasn't true. Life since has been pretty

758
00:45:59,690 --> 00:46:03,130
Speaker 2: pretty good. I just try and keep really busy and

759
00:46:03,170 --> 00:46:07,770
Speaker 2: look forward to the future. Really, I think that I

760
00:46:07,890 --> 00:46:12,610
Speaker 2: definitely have a lot more gratitude for for life. When

761
00:46:12,610 --> 00:46:18,010
Speaker 2: I wake up every day, I know that good things

762
00:46:18,050 --> 00:46:23,730
Speaker 2: are just like unexpectedly around the corner. I don't worry

763
00:46:23,850 --> 00:46:27,970
Speaker 2: about not finding friends or being lonely. I just know

764
00:46:28,130 --> 00:46:32,170
Speaker 2: that everything's going to be okay. We've sort of made

765
00:46:32,210 --> 00:46:35,810
Speaker 2: an agreement like that will never sort of block each

766
00:46:35,810 --> 00:46:39,090
Speaker 2: other on Facebook, so we can sort of see what

767
00:46:39,170 --> 00:46:42,490
Speaker 2: each other's doing from time to time. And I think

768
00:46:42,850 --> 00:46:48,530
Speaker 2: we'll always chat intimittently. Like I said, you know, when

769
00:46:48,530 --> 00:46:50,410
Speaker 2: you get a new girlfriend, you have to make sure

770
00:46:50,450 --> 00:46:53,570
Speaker 2: she's fine with you talking to your ex because I

771
00:46:53,570 --> 00:46:56,890
Speaker 2: don't want to get booted when he finds someone new.

772
00:46:57,490 --> 00:47:00,330
Speaker 2: That scares me a lot. Just the thought of not

773
00:47:00,370 --> 00:47:06,730
Speaker 2: having him in any capacity is scary. I think I

774
00:47:06,850 --> 00:47:08,170
Speaker 2: will love him forever.

775
00:47:21,930 --> 00:47:24,690
Speaker 1: Everyone has an X is a Minti Media production and

776
00:47:24,770 --> 00:47:28,330
Speaker 1: proudly part of the Mumamea Network. Is written and narrated

777
00:47:28,370 --> 00:47:31,930
Speaker 1: by me Georgia Love and produced by Linda Scott. If

778
00:47:31,930 --> 00:47:34,530
Speaker 1: you have a story you'd like to share, email podcast

779
00:47:34,610 --> 00:47:38,010
Speaker 1: at momamea dot com dot au. You can support us

780
00:47:38,010 --> 00:47:40,490
Speaker 1: by following the show in your favorite podcast app and

781
00:47:40,610 --> 00:47:43,130
Speaker 1: leaving a five star review. We'll see you for the

782
00:47:43,170 --> 00:47:48,050
Speaker 1: next episode.