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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hey out louders, I

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Speaker 2: am here with your Sunday special feed drop for Momma

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Speaker 2: Mia out Loud, and today we are dropping an episode

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Speaker 2: of mid Now. If you have never listened to mid

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Speaker 2: it is the other podcast that I host, and mid

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Speaker 2: is conversations for gen x women who are anything. But

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Speaker 2: We've had some kick ass guests on mid but this

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Speaker 2: week I've got one that I think you know very well,

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Speaker 2: one Mia Friedman. I've been trying to get her to

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Speaker 2: come on mid forages and she kept blanking me until

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Speaker 2: over the summer holidays I slipped her a copy of

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Speaker 2: my new book He Would Never, which is out on

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Speaker 2: Truestone all good bookshops, and she read it really quickly

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Speaker 2: and said, we need to talk about this on MID.

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Speaker 2: So I finally convinced her to come on, and we

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Speaker 2: talk about the book, but mostly we talk about teenagers

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Speaker 2: because there's a big theme and He Would Never about

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Speaker 2: that moment when girls slip from little girls into teenagers

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Speaker 2: and the gay of the world changes on them. Mia

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Speaker 2: and I talk about what we were like as teenagers,

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Speaker 2: the mistakes we made, the things we got up to,

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Speaker 2: and about being parents to teenage girls. And if you

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Speaker 2: hang around at the end of the interview, I read

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Speaker 2: an exclusive extract of he Would Never just for you.

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Speaker 2: So grab yourself a cup of sit down and enjoy

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Speaker 2: this Sunday special episode of Mid with Mia and I.

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Speaker 3: It's that disconnect period in your daughter's life or your

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Speaker 3: own life. I'm sure we can all probably remember it

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Speaker 3: where you cross this rubicon from being a child in

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Speaker 3: the eyes of others to being you know, sexually available

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Speaker 3: or a source of sexual gratification for men. There's always

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Speaker 3: a disconnect because it always happens.

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Speaker 2: Earlier than you can see. You can see it. Hello,

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Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wainwright and I am Mid, Midlife, Mid Family,

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Speaker 2: Mid Mayhem. Welcome back to our show Mid Conversations for

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Speaker 2: gen X women who are anything. But This is our

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Speaker 2: first episode of a new season, and as you'll know

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Speaker 2: if you're a regular listener, it's starting a little differently

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Speaker 2: and that's because I've got something special for you later

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Speaker 2: at the end this season on Mid, we have got

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Speaker 2: gurus and health experts. I have nineties icons and household

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Speaker 2: names I have Melinda French Gates. Yes, we have carefully

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Speaker 2: planned every episode to bring you something that makes life

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Speaker 2: a little bit better, a great story, a very useful idea,

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Speaker 2: something to try, someone who reminds you of you. And today,

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Speaker 2: for the first episode of this new season of MID,

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Speaker 2: I have a friend. I think you know her. It's

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Speaker 2: Mia Friedman. If you listen to Mama Mia out loud,

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Speaker 2: you know that I spend a lot of time talking

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Speaker 2: to Mia, along with our beloved co host Jesse Stevens,

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Speaker 2: disagreeing with Mia quite a lot, laugh till I snort

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Speaker 2: with her, gossiping with her, setting the world to rights

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Speaker 2: with her. But I'd never asked her to be on

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Speaker 2: MID before, and the reason that I wanted to for

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Speaker 2: the first ep of season five was twofold. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to talk to her about my new book. It's called

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Speaker 2: He Would Never and it's out in a hot minute.

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Speaker 2: I nervously slipped Mia an early copy of it over

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Speaker 2: the summer holidays, and she immediately messaged me to say

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Speaker 2: she wanted to talk to me about it on MID

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Speaker 2: and not before. So I have been waiting nervously to

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Speaker 2: hear what she wants to tell me about it. But

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Speaker 2: also it's because of the themes of the book I

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Speaker 2: think they're going to resonate with you as listeners to

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Speaker 2: mid It's about the power and limitations of female friendships.

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Speaker 2: It's about narcissistic relationships. It's centered around a knoddy little mystery,

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Speaker 2: and it's about the sometimes confusing shift of little girls

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Speaker 2: into teenage ones. This is something that Mia and I

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Speaker 2: talk about off Mike a lot. She's the first person

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Speaker 2: I asked for parenting advice about teenagers, because although she

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Speaker 2: and I are exactly the same age, she had her

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Speaker 2: kids a lot younger than I did. She's a grandmother now,

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Speaker 2: for God's sake, so she's always a few big paces

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Speaker 2: ahead in lots of ways. Of course, So we talk

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Speaker 2: about guiding teenage daughters, and we also reflect on our

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Speaker 2: teenage selves, who appear to have existed in an entirely

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Speaker 2: different universe. What we got right, what we got wrong.

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Speaker 2: We talk about all of that, and we talk about

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Speaker 2: writing and ambition and confidence and friendship. But we start,

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Speaker 2: of course with me asking Mia a very bald question

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Speaker 2: about he would never and getting the kind of honest

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Speaker 2: answer I would only expect from the extraordinarily honest, funny, brilliant, generous,

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Speaker 2: mea Freedman, and don't forget to stay listening at the

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Speaker 2: end of this conversation for your surprise, Me and Friedman.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing like getting you in a studio and putting

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Speaker 2: in front of a mic and asking you, did you

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Speaker 2: like my book?

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Speaker 3: Not really, I've read better. No, she's fucking loved it.

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Speaker 3: So what happened was you gave it to me, and

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Speaker 3: then I was away with Jesse, our third co host

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Speaker 3: and kind of like our little sister and friend on

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Speaker 3: out loud, and she read it first.

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Speaker 1: And you and.

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Speaker 3: I often get given books by friends and in some

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Speaker 3: ways they land and you just go, Okay, this is

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Speaker 3: a job because you know that your friend will be

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Speaker 3: very anxious and that you've got to read it, and

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Speaker 3: then you've got to obviously say nice things about it,

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Speaker 3: even if you don't really like it. And so then

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Speaker 3: Jesse started reading it first, and she was just like

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Speaker 3: she spent the whole weekend just like I just want

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Speaker 3: to I just want to go and finish hollybook. I

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Speaker 3: just all it's all I want to read, It's all

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Speaker 3: I want to think about. So I was like, okay,

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Speaker 3: this is a good sign. So when she was finished,

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Speaker 3: I started reading. And as soon as I started, I

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Speaker 3: realized why you had been such a nutcase for before,

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Speaker 3: because I said to Jesse, what's so good about it?

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Speaker 3: Because she's like, I'm just desperate to read it. I

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Speaker 3: just want to get back to it. I just want

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Speaker 3: to get back to it. Can you hold the baby?

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Speaker 3: I just want to get back to Holly's book? And

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Speaker 3: I'm like, what's so good about it? And she said,

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Speaker 3: she's gone to like she's gone up three levels. What's

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Speaker 3: she said? I understand why she's so stressed, because what

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Speaker 3: she's tried to do is extraordinary. She's thrown a lot

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Speaker 3: of balls in the air, and she's bitten off a lot,

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Speaker 3: and she's pulling it off.

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Speaker 2: It must be tiresome for you to have to watch

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Speaker 2: me having a breakdown every time I write a book.

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Speaker 1: That was a long answer to your off shot question.

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Speaker 2: And thank you for all those lovely things say, because

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Speaker 2: Mia does have to watch listen watch me have a

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Speaker 2: breakdown every time I write it. Yeah, I have.

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Speaker 3: It's just so funny because I don't write books anymore,

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Speaker 3: but all my friends do, including you and Jesse, who

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Speaker 3: took my closest friends and also Jesse's sister Claire Rece

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Speaker 3: wrote her first book. And you will have breakdowns in

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Speaker 3: very different ways. You will have complete breakdowns, but differently,

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Speaker 3: and you have different breakdowns from book to book. This one,

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Speaker 3: i've never seen you go so sort of the one

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Speaker 3: that you did before, which is a Couple Upstairs that

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Speaker 3: was quite dark, and when I read that, you went

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Speaker 3: quite dark and I understood You're like, you were really

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Speaker 3: insecure when you were writing that, which is interesting because

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Speaker 3: it was like going back to a time about an

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Speaker 3: emotionally abusive relationship and there were some dark themes in it.

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Speaker 3: With this one, it felt different. I felt like you

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Speaker 3: were like wrestling an alligator. Yeah, for a really long

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Speaker 3: period of time. And I've never been one of your readers.

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Speaker 3: You've never given it to me early, which I appreciate,

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Speaker 3: thank you.

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Speaker 2: But it really would be a job.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I know you have other readers, and I also know

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Speaker 3: that you didn't give it to them this time either,

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Speaker 3: and I yeah, it was just once I read the book,

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Speaker 3: I understood everything.

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Speaker 2: It's funny because I told you this at the time,

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Speaker 2: because obviously we record together, you know, three five times

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Speaker 2: a week, so we see each other all the time.

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Speaker 2: And for years, I when I haven't really spoken about this,

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Speaker 2: but when I handed the first draft of this book in,

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Speaker 2: it got handed back to me like they were like,

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Speaker 2: you need it needs some more work.

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Speaker 3: And you didn't tell me that at the time, because

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Speaker 3: I was really devastated. Yeah, and tell me why, Like

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Speaker 3: is that because every author, I mean, I know what

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Speaker 3: it's like to hand in a book and all you

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Speaker 3: want is no notes. It isn't that actually, well it's never.

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Speaker 2: Happened to me.

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Speaker 3: But like then when you get it back and it's like,

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Speaker 3: here's all the things you need to do, that's always

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Speaker 3: the point at which I want to give back my

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Speaker 3: advance yes, and say I don't want to do it anymore.

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Speaker 2: I want to do it. I think part of what

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Speaker 2: it was is and you know, we talk about this

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Speaker 2: a lot, but I always overestimate how what I can

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Speaker 2: do and how much I can do, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean. I'm always like, it'll be fine.

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Speaker 3: I mean the time it takes you to write, the

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Speaker 3: time it takes to write it, and the amount of

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Speaker 3: focus and energy that it takes to because the thing

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Speaker 3: is that most people write books and that's their job. Right,

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Speaker 3: But you write books as well as having a full

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Speaker 3: time job, yes, and doing one hundred other things. And

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Speaker 3: you know, lots of authors have kids, but most authors

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Speaker 3: don't also have another full time job.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I think that one of the if I learned

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Speaker 2: something through this book, and I'm sure I learned lots

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Speaker 2: of things, it was about that about trying to focus,

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Speaker 2: because I think what happened is when I handed it

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Speaker 2: in and I've been writing this book for like two years,

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Speaker 2: it is a big and complicated plot. We're not going

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Speaker 2: to go into the plot massively here. I want to

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Speaker 2: talk about some of the themes from it. But it's

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Speaker 2: a big and complicated plot that has lots of characters,

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Speaker 2: and it goes over a long period of time, so

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of moving parts, right, And I think

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Speaker 2: that I literally bid off more than I could chew

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Speaker 2: in the way that I normally work. Right. So when

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Speaker 2: I handed it in my very fabulous publisher, she pretty

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Speaker 2: much said to me, the last third feels rushed and

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Speaker 2: not like you have you know, you have and landed it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and did you secretly know that to share?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But I think that this is one of the

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Speaker 2: things that you really struggle with when you're writing. Is

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Speaker 2: you lose sight of your instinct anymore? Like is this good?

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Speaker 2: Or do I just not think it's good because I'm insecure,

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Speaker 2: blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: Because also no one else it was just had been

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Speaker 3: in your head for so long, Like I remember when

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Speaker 3: you wrote some of your first books. I think you

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Speaker 3: talked about this book or this, the themes around this book,

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Speaker 3: this idea of a camping holiday with a group of friends.

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Speaker 1: Like years ago, eight years ago.

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Speaker 2: I had been thinking about this plot and what to

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Speaker 2: do with this idea for a really long time, and

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Speaker 2: then it sort of came together when I sort of

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Speaker 2: tied it together with this thing about teenagers and teenage girls,

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Speaker 2: which I want us to talk about in a minute. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: I think I was really ambitious, So you know how

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Speaker 2: you said, And it's lovely to hear that. Jesse was like,

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Speaker 2: she's leveled up. I think I was ambitious and maybe

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Speaker 2: a bit off more than I could chew. How unlike

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Speaker 2: us to do that. So when anyway, when my publisher

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Speaker 2: confirmed that to me and she said, you need some

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Speaker 2: more time, you need some more focus. This book is

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Speaker 2: going to be good. It's going to be good, but

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Speaker 2: it's not quite good yet.

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Speaker 3: And you probably had fronting, but you also probably hadn't

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Speaker 3: mapped out time in your diary to do that.

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Speaker 2: Like how did you write this book?

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Speaker 3: I forget because you've written them in lots of different ways.

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Speaker 1: You've taken stretchers off.

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Speaker 3: To focus completely and try to write them in the

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Speaker 3: three month stretch. You've done like a day a week

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Speaker 3: for a year.

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Speaker 1: Tell me that.

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Speaker 2: The way that I'm trying I try to work now is,

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Speaker 2: as you know, I stack my mam and mea work

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Speaker 2: at the front of the week generally speaking, where I'm

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Speaker 2: here and one hundred percent mama, mea world Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: and then in theory Thursday, Friday and the weekend. Let's

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Speaker 2: be honest, is like more creative projects writing books at

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Speaker 2: other creative projects? Are that? And that's good in theory,

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Speaker 2: but have you ever known our lives to go exactly

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Speaker 2: like in the neat little blocks that we try and

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Speaker 2: put them in, do you know what I mean? So

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Speaker 2: it's kind of more everything kind of bleeds.

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Speaker 3: Do you think in a perfect world you need to

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Speaker 3: just go I'm going to take four months or I'm

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Speaker 3: going to take three months and I'm like, almost like

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Speaker 3: Matt Leave, and I'm just going to focus on it.

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Speaker 2: I think, yes, in a way. But then what I've

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Speaker 2: also come to know about myself, you know, the whole

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Speaker 2: introvert extrovert thing. Yeah, I think I love writing for

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Speaker 2: its solitude because I do quite like being alone. But

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Speaker 2: I'm not a pure introvert, like if I didn't have

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Speaker 2: the you know, also breaking it up with coming in

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Speaker 2: here and being with you guys and talking about it.

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Speaker 2: So you like the switching gear, I actually like that.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it is brilliant for creative process,

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Speaker 2: but it's good for my mental space. I think if

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Speaker 2: I was just locked away with the manuscript for and

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Speaker 2: nothing else, I don't think that would suit me in

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Speaker 2: the way that I know some writers are very suited

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Speaker 2: to being purely alone.

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Speaker 3: The part where your publisher said the last third feels

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Speaker 3: rushed is that because you underestimated how long it would

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Speaker 3: take you to write, or because you just were a

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Speaker 3: bit sick of it and you.

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Speaker 1: Just want to end it, Like why do you think that?

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Speaker 2: I also think that what I've learned is I used

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Speaker 2: to say, you know how that fiction writers always say,

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Speaker 2: are you're a plotter or a panther. That's the thing

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Speaker 2: that so plotters are. You will have heard, like Jane

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Speaker 2: Harper talks about this, not that I'm comparing myself to her,

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Speaker 2: but you plot out exactly what's going to happen in

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Speaker 2: minuscule detail before you write the book, so you know

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Speaker 2: you've got everything, the.

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Speaker 1: Whole plot down, like saying, with all the stuff on the.

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Speaker 2: Every chapter is Matt, I feel like you used to

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Speaker 2: do that. Didn't you do that with postal? Well, I've

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Speaker 2: always done it with I do it in theory but

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Speaker 2: not in detail. Right, So then, because I'm also quite

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Speaker 2: like ideas come to you while you do it, you know,

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Speaker 2: like creative people, you're you'll be writing and you'll be

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Speaker 2: like this would be funny, or that'd be good or

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Speaker 2: so I resist that kind of structure to a point.

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Speaker 2: Your resist all kinds of struf I know, it's it's

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Speaker 2: one of my favorite. And I think that what I

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Speaker 2: learned on this book is I needed that. I really

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Speaker 2: needed that structure because this was trying to wrestle an alligator,

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Speaker 2: and because it was so big and broad and sprawling,

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Speaker 2: and I was trying to apply my usual kind of

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Speaker 2: She'll be right techniques to that last half that wasn't

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Speaker 2: wasn't going to work.

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Speaker 3: How many characters are in it, and because it jumps,

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Speaker 3: it jumps.

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Speaker 2: Are five families and they and really the main characters

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Speaker 2: are Danny and liss unlockeye Well and Sadie. So there

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Speaker 2: are there are there are characters who are more major

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Speaker 2: than minor. But they've all got kids. And that's the

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Speaker 2: other thing is that, so they've all got kids. And

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Speaker 2: and the marriage various configurations of marriage. There are like

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Speaker 2: there's single parents, and there's a gay couple, and there's

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Speaker 2: you know, two conventionally married couples. And they all met

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Speaker 2: at Mother's Group. Which is something that did happen to

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Speaker 2: me in real life is I made good friends at

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Speaker 2: Mother's Group and we do actually go camping together every year.

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Speaker 2: They are very nervous about this book, I'm but obviously

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Speaker 2: the rest of it isn't and the thing that then,

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Speaker 2: so that is a lot to juggle and I did

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Speaker 2: learn that I do have to basically be much more structured.

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Speaker 2: So when I rewrote the last third, and obviously I

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Speaker 2: ended up rewriting quite a lot of it, then I

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Speaker 2: did really plan it out in meticulous detail like I gave.

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Speaker 2: I listened to the feedback about the structure. Editors are

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Speaker 2: always right, like we talk about this a lot. Mea

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Speaker 2: that you often, as you climb a tree in a

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Speaker 2: creative field, people give you fewer and fewer notes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is terrible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you need more notes. Whether you're like Mike White

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Speaker 2: making the White load us for like he's got four

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Speaker 2: hours of deleted scenes on the floor. Not that I'm

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Speaker 2: again comparing myself to him, or whether you're writing a book,

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Speaker 2: or whether you're conducting an interview, like you need other

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Speaker 2: people to be able to say to you.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I keep doing that saying I'm not comparing

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Speaker 3: myself to don't happen. I'm not comparing myself to Mike White.

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Speaker 3: You're a best selling author, this is what your fifth book,

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Speaker 3: sixth book. Like, you're a big fucking deal, Hollywayne, right, Like.

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Speaker 2: Stop and I don't feel like a big deal. When

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Speaker 2: we come back, Mea and I discuss our own coming

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Speaker 2: of age stories and that tricky, sticky timeween being a

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Speaker 2: little kid and being a woman.

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Speaker 3: Do you still wear the title author a little?

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Speaker 2: I think I'm getting more comfortable in it, but it's

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Speaker 2: really funny how intimidating that feels, that word, And I

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Speaker 2: think it's because the literary scene, as it were, is

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Speaker 2: a very compartmentalized thing. The other thing I wanted to

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Speaker 2: say is, as you know very well, I didn't start

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Speaker 2: writing books till I was in my forties, right, And

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Speaker 2: it was literally the thing I most wanted to do

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Speaker 2: when I was a little girl. We're about to talk

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Speaker 2: about being teenagers, but if there was a teenage Holly

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Speaker 2: who had a dream of what she wanted, I was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be a writer. But I wasn't a writer,

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Speaker 2: you know. I mean, I was lots of other things.

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Speaker 3: But you said you always like when you were a kid,

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Speaker 3: you would write stories, and way I.

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Speaker 2: Used to keep I used to write in these notebooks,

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Speaker 2: these really convoluted stories about me and all my friends,

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Speaker 2: and we were all dating different members Juran Juran oh.

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Speaker 1: Fanfic before there was Away.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, I was dating Simon or the BOTMB loved it

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Speaker 3: because you're a main character.

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Speaker 2: Because that was the main character. And I used to

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Speaker 2: go into school in the mornings and literally get my

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Speaker 2: friends to sit down and we'd all read and I'd

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Speaker 2: read to them about what happened, and then they'd be like,

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Speaker 2: well why would Then then it was there was drama,

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Speaker 2: and then when there was going to be a sex

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Speaker 2: scene because obviously I couldn't really write sex scenes then

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Speaker 2: because I.

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Speaker 1: Was kissing though kissing.

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Speaker 2: I'd be like, and then dot dot dot pause and

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Speaker 2: fade to black.

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Speaker 1: Oh well I was doing that. Then how old were

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Speaker 1: you when you were doing that?

365
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Speaker 2: Like twelve eleven and twelve like young?

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Speaker 1: And I was writing bad poetry.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I think it's an age, isn't it Like?

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Speaker 2: And the thing that's mortifying is that we were filling

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Speaker 2: notebooks with that stuff. But now people are feeling, well,

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Speaker 2: if people are doing it, well they're making tiktoks. Yeah

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Speaker 2: they are, That's exactly what they're doing, and they'll and

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Speaker 2: then ten minutes later they're mortified by them. Anyway, the

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Speaker 2: thing that tied this idea for me together about the

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Speaker 2: camping is but then I wanted to write about teenage girls,

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to write about being parents teenage girls.

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Speaker 2: And this is something that you and I talk about

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Speaker 2: a lot all the time, and partly because one of

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Speaker 2: the things and obviously we're going to talk in broad

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Speaker 2: terms here because we're not going to mortify our teenage

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Speaker 2: daughters anymore than we already do all the time. One

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Speaker 2: of the things that I noticed the most about my

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Speaker 2: daughter moving from that phase of being a little kid

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Speaker 2: into being a teenager, apart from the changes in her

384
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Speaker 2: in terms of you know how, there's a moment in

385
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Speaker 2: which they're running around completely un self conscious, nothing like

386
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Speaker 2: just being crazy, cartwheeling, dancing, whatever they're doing, expressing their opinions,

387
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Speaker 2: and then like a switch flicks, they're suddenly mortified by themselves,

388
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Speaker 2: you know, like yourselves away and certainly by you. But

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Speaker 2: the other thing that happens is when your daughter begins

390
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Speaker 2: to become a young woman, everyone around you changes too.

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Speaker 2: And the thing that I would notice when we would

392
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Speaker 2: go away on our not necessarily with these comping friends,

393
00:19:12,022 --> 00:19:14,781
Speaker 2: but we live in a beachy kind of culture, is

394
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Speaker 2: that suddenly the conversations you're having all the time, and

395
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Speaker 2: often from man actually would be like, Oh, you're going

396
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Speaker 2: to be in trouble, aren't you. Oh, she's gonna be

397
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Speaker 2: in she's gonna be in trouble. Oh, I don't envy you.

398
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Speaker 2: And they're making all these comments, usually to the dad,

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Speaker 2: Usually to the dad yep, about this girl who's just

400
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Speaker 2: moving through the world and changing, and it's a lot.

401
00:19:38,061 --> 00:19:38,662
Speaker 2: It is a lot.

402
00:19:38,742 --> 00:19:41,422
Speaker 3: I remember the first time my daughter got sexually harrassed.

403
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Speaker 3: She was walking she would have been twelve, and she

404
00:19:44,782 --> 00:19:49,701
Speaker 3: was walking to a friend's house and a guy walked

405
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Speaker 3: past her and sort of licked his lips and said something.

406
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Speaker 3: Can I remember, you know, it's one of those times.

407
00:19:58,821 --> 00:20:02,262
Speaker 3: And not long after that, we were out in Bonday,

408
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Speaker 3: just for dinner, and we were just walking to the

409
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Speaker 3: car and a car load of guys cat called and

410
00:20:09,101 --> 00:20:11,222
Speaker 3: she thought they were cat calling me, but I knew

411
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Speaker 3: they were cat calling her. And it's that disconnect period

412
00:20:17,101 --> 00:20:19,902
Speaker 3: in your daughter's life or your own life. I'm sure

413
00:20:19,942 --> 00:20:25,581
Speaker 3: we can all probably remember it, where you cross this

414
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Speaker 3: rubicon from being a child in the eyes of others

415
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Speaker 3: to being a sexually available or a source of sexual

416
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Speaker 3: gratification for men. And it always happens way before. There's

417
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Speaker 3: always a disconnect, because it always happens earlier than you

418
00:20:44,942 --> 00:20:47,262
Speaker 3: see this can see it. All I can think about

419
00:20:47,341 --> 00:20:49,782
Speaker 3: is that brilliant scene in the Barbie movie when Mago

420
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Speaker 3: Robbie comes to the real world for the first time

421
00:20:51,742 --> 00:20:53,302
Speaker 3: and she's walking down the street, and she, for the

422
00:20:53,302 --> 00:20:55,862
Speaker 3: first time, becomes aware of being perceived in the male gaze,

423
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Speaker 3: and she says, I've got this weird feeling. It's like

424
00:20:58,462 --> 00:21:01,782
Speaker 3: I'm aware, but like aware of myself, And to me,

425
00:21:01,942 --> 00:21:07,341
Speaker 3: that is an absolute fantastic portrayal but in faster time

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Speaker 3: of what it's like to be a teenage girl.

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Speaker 2: Actly what I thought, and it made me a bit

428
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Speaker 2: emotional for that reason. Do you remember that happening to

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Speaker 2: you yourself? Can you put yourself back in the first

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00:21:17,341 --> 00:21:19,621
Speaker 2: time you remember being a lot like that on the street?

431
00:21:20,381 --> 00:21:22,662
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can, well, I can remember the first time

432
00:21:22,821 --> 00:21:25,502
Speaker 3: I noticed it in myself, which was when I was

433
00:21:25,621 --> 00:21:28,262
Speaker 3: at the beach and I was walking and the sun

434
00:21:28,381 --> 00:21:30,941
Speaker 3: was coming down and I could see my shadow and

435
00:21:30,982 --> 00:21:33,022
Speaker 3: I could see my shadow went in at the waist

436
00:21:33,901 --> 00:21:37,782
Speaker 3: and I really noticed that, and I was really quite

437
00:21:37,901 --> 00:21:42,382
Speaker 3: chuffed about it. And then I remember trying on like

438
00:21:43,061 --> 00:21:45,741
Speaker 3: tight clothes and looking at myself in the mirror and

439
00:21:45,861 --> 00:21:50,302
Speaker 3: trying on the persona of looking sexy but not really

440
00:21:50,422 --> 00:21:54,141
Speaker 3: understanding what that was. And then of course I remember

441
00:21:54,982 --> 00:21:58,901
Speaker 3: being you know, sexual, I guess now you'd call it

442
00:21:58,942 --> 00:22:02,182
Speaker 3: sexual assault. When I was at the Easter Show and

443
00:22:02,861 --> 00:22:05,861
Speaker 3: with my friends and I would have been twelve or thirteen,

444
00:22:06,222 --> 00:22:08,701
Speaker 3: and it was a sort of a crowd and a

445
00:22:08,742 --> 00:22:11,702
Speaker 3: guy walked away towards me, grabbed me in the by

446
00:22:11,742 --> 00:22:14,502
Speaker 3: the vagina and or grabbed me in the volvo the

447
00:22:14,581 --> 00:22:16,582
Speaker 3: crotch area, and kept walking.

448
00:22:17,422 --> 00:22:24,182
Speaker 1: And I remember feeling so just shocked, horrified.

449
00:22:23,581 --> 00:22:28,341
Speaker 3: Dirty because it that and I couldn't even process that.

450
00:22:28,381 --> 00:22:31,421
Speaker 3: I didn't even I didn't even tell anyone because I

451
00:22:31,422 --> 00:22:33,221
Speaker 3: didn't even know what it was.

452
00:22:33,861 --> 00:22:37,341
Speaker 2: It's such a profound thing when you suddenly realize it's

453
00:22:37,381 --> 00:22:39,781
Speaker 2: like you shift into being. You're sort of like, oh,

454
00:22:39,821 --> 00:22:43,142
Speaker 2: I'm pray. Yeah right, yes, but I didn't really think

455
00:22:43,182 --> 00:22:46,821
Speaker 2: I was. And probably especially for our generation, maybe even

456
00:22:46,861 --> 00:22:49,381
Speaker 2: more so for our daughters. You can do anything, you

457
00:22:49,422 --> 00:22:51,861
Speaker 2: can go anywhere, you can be whatever you want to be.

458
00:22:51,982 --> 00:22:54,622
Speaker 2: You're just like the boys. And then suddenly, oh, I'm

459
00:22:54,621 --> 00:22:56,181
Speaker 2: not like that, because the.

460
00:22:56,182 --> 00:22:59,981
Speaker 3: Message we because I'm prayed so much. Yeah, was it

461
00:23:00,061 --> 00:23:01,422
Speaker 3: gen X women growing up?

462
00:23:02,502 --> 00:23:05,382
Speaker 2: We did, but it was a different stage of feminism.

463
00:23:05,462 --> 00:23:08,941
Speaker 2: But but you suddenly if you ever thought that you

464
00:23:08,982 --> 00:23:10,741
Speaker 2: were just like the boys, if you were one of

465
00:23:10,782 --> 00:23:13,702
Speaker 2: then you're suddenly like, oh, I'm not. And then there's

466
00:23:13,742 --> 00:23:16,502
Speaker 2: this really interesting period, I think as you gor and

467
00:23:16,581 --> 00:23:20,701
Speaker 2: grapple with that whole idea, and then often what a

468
00:23:20,742 --> 00:23:23,381
Speaker 2: lot of young women will do is they'll figure out

469
00:23:23,422 --> 00:23:25,581
Speaker 2: a way to make it work for them in a way,

470
00:23:25,782 --> 00:23:29,381
Speaker 2: you know, like in how do I harness? Which bits

471
00:23:29,381 --> 00:23:31,821
Speaker 2: of this new world do I like? And which bits

472
00:23:31,821 --> 00:23:33,862
Speaker 2: of it do I really not? And in the book

473
00:23:34,462 --> 00:23:39,702
Speaker 2: Lyra who is fourteen and who her best friend's dad

474
00:23:40,141 --> 00:23:42,621
Speaker 2: may or may not do something inappropriate to her but

475
00:23:42,742 --> 00:23:45,502
Speaker 2: certainly hasn't inappropriate relationship with her, and that he calls

476
00:23:45,502 --> 00:23:47,861
Speaker 2: her and they talk and he's kind of she hasn't

477
00:23:47,901 --> 00:23:49,742
Speaker 2: got a father who's around, and he tries to step

478
00:23:49,742 --> 00:23:52,262
Speaker 2: into that role, but in a creepy way. She remembers

479
00:23:52,262 --> 00:23:54,222
Speaker 2: the very first time she sees the way he looks

480
00:23:54,262 --> 00:23:56,621
Speaker 2: at her, and you just know, you just have a

481
00:23:56,742 --> 00:23:58,861
Speaker 2: sense that the way he's looking at you is different

482
00:23:58,861 --> 00:24:00,702
Speaker 2: to the way he looked at you last summer when

483
00:24:00,702 --> 00:24:03,621
Speaker 2: you were also in a swimsuit in the pool, and

484
00:24:03,742 --> 00:24:04,502
Speaker 2: everything's and.

485
00:24:04,462 --> 00:24:08,902
Speaker 3: The irony is not the irony, but the biological reality

486
00:24:08,982 --> 00:24:11,341
Speaker 3: is that for me, any of us, the gaze of

487
00:24:11,462 --> 00:24:15,462
Speaker 3: lights on our daughters, when it is removed from us

488
00:24:15,581 --> 00:24:21,181
Speaker 3: at that same time, and both things are kind of imperceptible.

489
00:24:21,702 --> 00:24:25,262
Speaker 3: Like you know, you can think, oh, people don't cat

490
00:24:25,302 --> 00:24:27,422
Speaker 3: call anymore, but it's like oh, and then you're walking

491
00:24:27,422 --> 00:24:29,142
Speaker 3: down the street with a younger woman and you go, oh,

492
00:24:29,222 --> 00:24:32,702
Speaker 3: they just don't cat call me anymore, and you're like, right,

493
00:24:32,861 --> 00:24:34,981
Speaker 3: I can walk past a building site and not have

494
00:24:35,101 --> 00:24:36,222
Speaker 3: to clench.

495
00:24:36,381 --> 00:24:38,421
Speaker 1: And it's not because manner more evolved.

496
00:24:38,462 --> 00:24:40,862
Speaker 3: I'd like to believe that, but it's actually just because

497
00:24:41,222 --> 00:24:44,581
Speaker 3: I'm not in their sights anymore. I'm no longer pray.

498
00:24:44,581 --> 00:24:47,261
Speaker 3: And of course that feels I mean, different women have

499
00:24:47,302 --> 00:24:50,982
Speaker 3: different reactions to it. It feels like a lovely relief.

500
00:24:51,462 --> 00:24:53,701
Speaker 3: Some women feel, of course, a great sense of loss.

501
00:24:54,901 --> 00:24:56,782
Speaker 2: Do you ever feel you know how, there's a trope

502
00:24:57,101 --> 00:25:00,022
Speaker 2: that it makes us jealous? Do you ever feel that? No,

503
00:25:00,222 --> 00:25:00,941
Speaker 2: I don't feel that.

504
00:25:01,581 --> 00:25:08,061
Speaker 3: And you watch some women on TikTok or you know, celebrities,

505
00:25:08,742 --> 00:25:10,861
Speaker 3: and you see the ones that are struggling with it,

506
00:25:10,982 --> 00:25:14,421
Speaker 3: and it's usually the ones, I guess who've really defined

507
00:25:14,462 --> 00:25:17,022
Speaker 3: themselves by how they look and have defined themselves through

508
00:25:17,782 --> 00:25:20,821
Speaker 3: the male gaze and through through the validation of that.

509
00:25:21,821 --> 00:25:26,782
Speaker 3: And like you look at them with their daughters and

510
00:25:26,982 --> 00:25:28,942
Speaker 3: like they're trying to look like their sisters.

511
00:25:29,542 --> 00:25:31,581
Speaker 1: And then and then, you know, a man or you

512
00:25:31,661 --> 00:25:32,821
Speaker 1: must be said as.

513
00:25:32,702 --> 00:25:35,502
Speaker 3: If I want to be told that, like, that's not

514
00:25:35,621 --> 00:25:39,302
Speaker 3: my aim is to look like my daughter's sister. Like

515
00:25:39,821 --> 00:25:42,861
Speaker 3: I'm very happy to sort of back off that stage

516
00:25:42,942 --> 00:25:46,181
Speaker 3: that I never was particularly inamate of being on.

517
00:25:46,381 --> 00:25:48,701
Speaker 1: But I'm very like, this is their time.

518
00:25:48,542 --> 00:25:52,061
Speaker 2: Now, It's no time to be objectified and say, rastically,

519
00:25:52,621 --> 00:25:55,101
Speaker 2: what am I even saying? I know exactly what you

520
00:25:55,222 --> 00:25:57,942
Speaker 2: mean to me. I also but and it's also interesting

521
00:25:57,982 --> 00:26:01,222
Speaker 2: that when it started to happen to my daughter, when

522
00:26:01,262 --> 00:26:04,662
Speaker 2: I saw that shift, it brought out the protective mother

523
00:26:04,742 --> 00:26:06,421
Speaker 2: and me in a way that few things do. Is

524
00:26:06,462 --> 00:26:09,262
Speaker 2: that when I see an old particularly an older older man,

525
00:26:10,101 --> 00:26:12,742
Speaker 2: look at her in a certain way, I want to

526
00:26:12,821 --> 00:26:16,022
Speaker 2: kill them. I really do, even though I understand it.

527
00:26:16,302 --> 00:26:19,022
Speaker 2: Because and this is what the complicated thing that's kind

528
00:26:19,022 --> 00:26:20,741
Speaker 2: of I was trying to explore a bit in this

529
00:26:20,742 --> 00:26:23,542
Speaker 2: book is that you know, there's a there's a point

530
00:26:23,581 --> 00:26:24,941
Speaker 2: in the book where Lockie says to one of the

531
00:26:24,982 --> 00:26:27,942
Speaker 2: other guys, you know, mothers want to keep treat their

532
00:26:27,942 --> 00:26:31,182
Speaker 2: teenage girls like their babies, but we know that they're

533
00:26:31,222 --> 00:26:34,181
Speaker 2: basically the monsters who tortured us at high school, like

534
00:26:34,262 --> 00:26:37,262
Speaker 2: that they are God, yes, and that they know exactly

535
00:26:37,302 --> 00:26:37,942
Speaker 2: what they're doing.

536
00:26:38,022 --> 00:26:39,262
Speaker 1: And that's awful.

537
00:26:39,742 --> 00:26:40,981
Speaker 2: I know that that's awful.

538
00:26:41,022 --> 00:26:43,981
Speaker 3: It's like these these adult men, and of course not

539
00:26:44,061 --> 00:26:46,901
Speaker 3: all adult men, of course not. But there is a

540
00:26:46,942 --> 00:26:50,141
Speaker 3: certain type of adult man who is trying to correct

541
00:26:50,182 --> 00:26:53,421
Speaker 3: the experience that he had in high school where he

542
00:26:53,462 --> 00:26:55,381
Speaker 3: didn't have any power, and now he's got power by

543
00:26:55,381 --> 00:26:58,022
Speaker 3: the virtual of the fact that he's an adult and

544
00:26:58,061 --> 00:26:58,502
Speaker 3: she's not.

545
00:26:59,502 --> 00:27:03,101
Speaker 2: Ooh, I know. And there's a there's a to very

546
00:27:03,182 --> 00:27:05,861
Speaker 2: much the point of not all adult men. I talk

547
00:27:05,942 --> 00:27:08,221
Speaker 2: quite a bit with the men in my life about

548
00:27:08,222 --> 00:27:10,861
Speaker 2: how they handle that ship of suddenly, all the girls

549
00:27:10,861 --> 00:27:13,462
Speaker 2: in the pool or at the beach or whatever, who

550
00:27:13,502 --> 00:27:15,221
Speaker 2: are your daughter's little friends?

551
00:27:15,861 --> 00:27:17,582
Speaker 1: I do all look different and they're all wearing their

552
00:27:17,621 --> 00:27:18,381
Speaker 1: up the Bamborkini.

553
00:27:18,542 --> 00:27:22,061
Speaker 2: And I asked Brent, and you know, I'm not suggesting

554
00:27:22,101 --> 00:27:23,982
Speaker 2: that men are going to be completely honest with any

555
00:27:23,982 --> 00:27:27,222
Speaker 2: woman about this, but I asked Brent once like, because

556
00:27:27,222 --> 00:27:29,061
Speaker 2: I noticed the way that some men were looking at

557
00:27:29,061 --> 00:27:32,422
Speaker 2: the girls, and I said, is it hard? Is it hard?

558
00:27:32,742 --> 00:27:35,942
Speaker 2: And he said no, he said, eyes down.

559
00:27:36,821 --> 00:27:38,701
Speaker 1: Eyes down, eyes down.

560
00:27:38,821 --> 00:27:41,661
Speaker 2: It's just like you're you're an adult and you just

561
00:27:41,742 --> 00:27:44,461
Speaker 2: have to keep that like eyes down, like it's not

562
00:27:44,502 --> 00:27:46,821
Speaker 2: hard not to stare. It's not hard not to be lacivious.

563
00:27:46,861 --> 00:27:47,782
Speaker 2: I don't know, but.

564
00:27:47,782 --> 00:27:51,421
Speaker 3: Don't you remember that time when you become aware of

565
00:27:51,462 --> 00:27:54,581
Speaker 3: the male gaze? But then you and you you're also

566
00:27:54,901 --> 00:27:58,662
Speaker 3: you know, your horny, you've got your hormones going. It's

567
00:27:58,861 --> 00:28:02,701
Speaker 3: not you know, puberty has an effect on girls as

568
00:28:02,742 --> 00:28:06,981
Speaker 3: they become young women, but you think you can control it.

569
00:28:07,302 --> 00:28:10,022
Speaker 3: So you want the male gaze, but you only want

570
00:28:10,542 --> 00:28:13,262
Speaker 3: the people who you like to look at you. You

571
00:28:13,262 --> 00:28:15,022
Speaker 3: don't want that old guy on the bus to look

572
00:28:15,022 --> 00:28:17,421
Speaker 3: at you. But you want to wear the booty shorts.

573
00:28:17,462 --> 00:28:19,861
Speaker 3: Even if you can't articulate this, you want to wear

574
00:28:19,901 --> 00:28:21,861
Speaker 3: the booty shorts because you want that guy that you

575
00:28:21,901 --> 00:28:23,462
Speaker 3: have a crush on to like you, or that good

576
00:28:23,462 --> 00:28:27,262
Speaker 3: looking older guy that you think's cute. And that's what's

577
00:28:27,302 --> 00:28:29,462
Speaker 3: a really tough thing is the mother of a young

578
00:28:29,581 --> 00:28:36,142
Speaker 3: teenager to try and explain that nuance where they can

579
00:28:36,182 --> 00:28:38,421
Speaker 3: get very old. But you know that's his problem. He

580
00:28:38,422 --> 00:28:41,222
Speaker 3: shouldn't be looking at me. It's like, well, you're right,

581
00:28:41,382 --> 00:28:45,382
Speaker 3: he shouldn't. But you can't control who looks at you

582
00:28:45,422 --> 00:28:46,661
Speaker 3: when you're in the booty shorts.

583
00:28:46,702 --> 00:28:51,822
Speaker 1: You can't so and are you Are you mature enough

584
00:28:52,182 --> 00:28:54,862
Speaker 1: to be able to understand that? And that you know?

585
00:28:54,902 --> 00:28:57,981
Speaker 3: I remember settling. You know, there's a sometimes joke that

586
00:28:58,022 --> 00:29:04,022
Speaker 3: there's a moment in the for every teenage girl where

587
00:29:04,062 --> 00:29:05,542
Speaker 3: their mother will slut shame them.

588
00:29:05,661 --> 00:29:07,502
Speaker 1: She won't mean to, but you're like.

589
00:29:07,422 --> 00:29:10,942
Speaker 3: You can't go out like that, And for us that's

590
00:29:10,982 --> 00:29:13,622
Speaker 3: because we're fearful of.

591
00:29:15,782 --> 00:29:15,942
Speaker 1: That.

592
00:29:16,022 --> 00:29:18,582
Speaker 3: But then the feminist in us is also like, well,

593
00:29:18,822 --> 00:29:21,862
Speaker 3: she should be able to wear whatever she wants. We

594
00:29:22,022 --> 00:29:26,421
Speaker 3: can't stop men from looking at her. But so I

595
00:29:26,462 --> 00:29:29,941
Speaker 3: say to my I started saying to my daughter, I

596
00:29:30,022 --> 00:29:33,302
Speaker 3: know this isn't fair. I know this isn't right, and

597
00:29:33,342 --> 00:29:36,382
Speaker 3: I will not stop fighting for you to be able

598
00:29:36,382 --> 00:29:38,862
Speaker 3: to wear whatever you want, whenever you want, and be

599
00:29:38,982 --> 00:29:46,822
Speaker 3: completely secure and free from unwanted male attention. But at

600
00:29:46,862 --> 00:29:49,422
Speaker 3: the moment, it's not that way.

601
00:29:50,262 --> 00:29:53,822
Speaker 2: It's really complicated because we've discussed this before, but there

602
00:29:53,862 --> 00:29:56,622
Speaker 2: was one of the things that's really tricky I think

603
00:29:56,661 --> 00:30:00,182
Speaker 2: for in this teenage time when you're figuring out all

604
00:30:00,302 --> 00:30:03,661
Speaker 2: this stuff, is you are proud of your changing body

605
00:30:03,661 --> 00:30:05,622
Speaker 2: in a way because you realize that this is going

606
00:30:05,702 --> 00:30:08,102
Speaker 2: to be a part of being yeah. Yeah, but you

607
00:30:08,142 --> 00:30:10,462
Speaker 2: also feel a lot of shame about it. And I

608
00:30:10,782 --> 00:30:12,822
Speaker 2: what I want to do in talking to my daughter

609
00:30:12,822 --> 00:30:15,302
Speaker 2: about it is not to add to that shame. But

610
00:30:15,382 --> 00:30:17,582
Speaker 2: it's hard. And I remember a while ago we were

611
00:30:17,582 --> 00:30:20,022
Speaker 2: at a thing with lots of kids and my child

612
00:30:20,102 --> 00:30:22,702
Speaker 2: was younger than she is now, and the little boys

613
00:30:22,742 --> 00:30:25,622
Speaker 2: were teasing her about her boobs or whatever, and she

614
00:30:25,822 --> 00:30:29,782
Speaker 2: was really upset and I said to her, put a

615
00:30:29,862 --> 00:30:36,182
Speaker 2: jumper on. I know it wasn't that I didn't say

616
00:30:36,182 --> 00:30:38,822
Speaker 2: put a jumper on because I thought it was okay.

617
00:30:38,942 --> 00:30:41,741
Speaker 2: And obviously that like the whole when I found out

618
00:30:41,822 --> 00:30:43,502
Speaker 2: later what those little boys have been saying, like, it

619
00:30:43,542 --> 00:30:46,222
Speaker 2: was a whole thing. But but my first things also

620
00:30:46,262 --> 00:30:48,502
Speaker 2: because I wanted to stay at the place and do whatever.

621
00:30:48,542 --> 00:30:50,382
Speaker 2: You know, what I mean was to do that. But

622
00:30:50,462 --> 00:30:52,382
Speaker 2: that was kind of saying to my daughter, were you're

623
00:30:52,382 --> 00:30:54,342
Speaker 2: asking for it that these eleven year old boys are

624
00:30:54,342 --> 00:30:54,742
Speaker 2: teasing you.

625
00:30:54,982 --> 00:30:57,542
Speaker 3: I remember my daughter came back from a camp or

626
00:30:57,542 --> 00:31:01,221
Speaker 3: something and like, oh, this guy hit me in the

627
00:31:01,222 --> 00:31:03,342
Speaker 3: playground or grabbed me or something. I'm like, Oh, that's

628
00:31:03,382 --> 00:31:05,221
Speaker 3: just what boys sometimes do when they like you. And

629
00:31:05,262 --> 00:31:08,782
Speaker 3: then I was like, oh my god, it's craze things

630
00:31:08,982 --> 00:31:12,262
Speaker 3: that we internalized, and it is just such a head

631
00:31:12,302 --> 00:31:17,622
Speaker 3: scramble for us as gen X feminist women because what

632
00:31:18,062 --> 00:31:21,982
Speaker 3: we want to be true is not necessarily what we

633
00:31:22,142 --> 00:31:27,022
Speaker 3: know is true. And also that disconnect between we see

634
00:31:27,102 --> 00:31:31,302
Speaker 3: danger and threat where they don't yet because they haven't

635
00:31:31,342 --> 00:31:35,222
Speaker 3: caught up with how they're viewed in society, because they're

636
00:31:35,262 --> 00:31:38,342
Speaker 3: still probably sleeping with a teddy bear, but they've got boobs, And.

637
00:31:38,302 --> 00:31:40,622
Speaker 2: When you think about it, it's a lot to get

638
00:31:40,622 --> 00:31:44,182
Speaker 2: your head around. Everything is changing. But you know, I'm

639
00:31:44,222 --> 00:31:48,502
Speaker 2: reading because I'm interviewing Ioni Sky for the show It Soon,

640
00:31:48,582 --> 00:31:50,941
Speaker 2: and I'm reading her memoir and one of the things

641
00:31:50,942 --> 00:31:54,822
Speaker 2: she's really good on she's in Generation ex Icon, is

642
00:31:55,142 --> 00:31:57,461
Speaker 2: her she talks about herself as a teenager, and to

643
00:31:57,502 --> 00:32:00,582
Speaker 2: your point earlier, how horny she was and that she

644
00:32:00,742 --> 00:32:04,582
Speaker 2: was inappropriately young in an appropriate situation. So she's on

645
00:32:04,661 --> 00:32:08,062
Speaker 2: movie sets and she's like fourteen and fifteen and modeling

646
00:32:08,222 --> 00:32:12,342
Speaker 2: like those days, or they were all getting emancipated from

647
00:32:12,342 --> 00:32:15,822
Speaker 2: their parents because they allowed you to work adult hours.

648
00:32:15,382 --> 00:32:18,262
Speaker 2: So Hollywood. The studios would say, you can have this part,

649
00:32:18,262 --> 00:32:20,902
Speaker 2: but you have to get emancipated so that you can

650
00:32:20,942 --> 00:32:22,542
Speaker 2: work adult hours. Otherwise we're going to have to have

651
00:32:22,542 --> 00:32:23,982
Speaker 2: a teacher on set and you're gonna have to work

652
00:32:24,102 --> 00:32:29,662
Speaker 2: or lhah. And she talks with really refreshing, non judgmental

653
00:32:29,702 --> 00:32:34,022
Speaker 2: honesty about her first movie. Keanu Reeves was her co star,

654
00:32:35,022 --> 00:32:38,302
Speaker 2: and she just wants to have sex with him, yeah,

655
00:32:38,382 --> 00:32:41,781
Speaker 2: because he's Keanu Reeves and he is unbelievably hot, and

656
00:32:41,822 --> 00:32:44,742
Speaker 2: she goes, she tries, and she turns up in his seat.

657
00:32:45,422 --> 00:32:48,302
Speaker 2: She was fifteen and he was only a bit older,

658
00:32:48,622 --> 00:32:51,542
Speaker 2: and he's like no. And then she goes on to

659
00:32:51,622 --> 00:32:54,822
Speaker 2: have relationships with Anthony Keith is from the Red Hot

660
00:32:54,902 --> 00:32:57,382
Speaker 2: Chili Peppers, and he's eight years older, and she moves

661
00:32:57,422 --> 00:33:00,502
Speaker 2: in with it. But the thing that's really interesting reading

662
00:33:00,542 --> 00:33:04,981
Speaker 2: it through our lens now is we've I mean, and

663
00:33:05,022 --> 00:33:07,582
Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting that that's all fine, and there's plenty

664
00:33:07,622 --> 00:33:10,741
Speaker 2: of room for exploitation abuse in that paradigm, but we

665
00:33:10,822 --> 00:33:14,022
Speaker 2: have extended childhood to a point I think of as

666
00:33:14,142 --> 00:33:18,062
Speaker 2: gen X parents, we've extended it feels shocking to think

667
00:33:18,062 --> 00:33:21,422
Speaker 2: about fifteen sixteen seventeen year old girl behaving that way.

668
00:33:21,582 --> 00:33:23,342
Speaker 1: Yeah, but moving out of home.

669
00:33:23,182 --> 00:33:26,862
Speaker 2: When I was fifteen, sixteen seventeen, I thought I was

670
00:33:26,902 --> 00:33:30,582
Speaker 2: twenty one. Oh god, yess, and I was gorgeous going

671
00:33:30,622 --> 00:33:32,582
Speaker 2: for what I wanted, and I didn't understand why it

672
00:33:32,622 --> 00:33:37,902
Speaker 2: was inappropriate whether it was inappropriate, of course, and so

673
00:33:38,142 --> 00:33:42,142
Speaker 2: it's kind of like, should you be ashamed of that?

674
00:33:42,222 --> 00:33:43,742
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? Yeah?

675
00:33:43,782 --> 00:33:45,902
Speaker 3: I think we do a lot of It's really hard

676
00:33:45,942 --> 00:33:48,502
Speaker 3: because at a time when we want to be telling

677
00:33:50,062 --> 00:33:53,981
Speaker 3: young girls to explore their sexuality and lean into how

678
00:33:54,022 --> 00:33:57,822
Speaker 3: they're feeling, and there's nothing wrong with that. I often

679
00:33:57,902 --> 00:34:05,022
Speaker 3: have really weird conversations with parents of teenage girls, particularly fathers.

680
00:34:05,462 --> 00:34:08,542
Speaker 3: I remember when I used to look after Dolly magazine

681
00:34:09,022 --> 00:34:11,782
Speaker 3: and the ads were really against the sealed sections and

682
00:34:11,822 --> 00:34:14,502
Speaker 3: the Dolly doctor and stuff. But the moms knew that

683
00:34:15,262 --> 00:34:17,822
Speaker 3: girls want access to that information way.

684
00:34:17,661 --> 00:34:19,301
Speaker 1: Before they're going to act on it.

685
00:34:19,542 --> 00:34:23,022
Speaker 3: You know, they want to understand sex, they want to read,

686
00:34:23,261 --> 00:34:25,422
Speaker 3: you know, they want to try on what it's like

687
00:34:25,542 --> 00:34:26,382
Speaker 3: to be older.

688
00:34:27,502 --> 00:34:32,341
Speaker 1: And so even though you know you know that, I

689
00:34:32,342 --> 00:34:32,741
Speaker 1: don't know.

690
00:34:33,062 --> 00:34:36,261
Speaker 3: It's just really challenging being the mother of a teenage girl,

691
00:34:36,302 --> 00:34:38,982
Speaker 3: it really is. And I always say, like, you know,

692
00:34:39,582 --> 00:34:42,341
Speaker 3: the best place for a young girl to explore her

693
00:34:42,502 --> 00:34:46,781
Speaker 3: sexuality is within a committed relationship, whether it's with another

694
00:34:46,822 --> 00:34:49,461
Speaker 3: girl or with another guy. But what you should want

695
00:34:49,542 --> 00:34:54,062
Speaker 3: as a parent is for your daughter when she's old

696
00:34:54,181 --> 00:34:57,622
Speaker 3: enough to be fooling around with someone who really cares

697
00:34:57,661 --> 00:35:00,942
Speaker 3: about her. And I think that this idea that you

698
00:35:01,062 --> 00:35:04,741
Speaker 3: have to put off sex or you know, lock your

699
00:35:04,781 --> 00:35:07,181
Speaker 3: sexuality in a box for as long as possible, and

700
00:35:07,221 --> 00:35:11,102
Speaker 3: that's the goal. It's like, whoever's daughter lasts the longest

701
00:35:11,181 --> 00:35:13,142
Speaker 3: without doing any of that stuff wins.

702
00:35:14,102 --> 00:35:16,062
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe because.

703
00:35:16,062 --> 00:35:19,662
Speaker 3: I learned, you know, had a great I guess sexual

704
00:35:19,701 --> 00:35:22,181
Speaker 3: awakening with a committed boyfriend when I was around fifteen,

705
00:35:22,261 --> 00:35:25,821
Speaker 3: and that was amazing because a lot of women our

706
00:35:25,862 --> 00:35:29,461
Speaker 3: age have really awful stories about, you know, their first

707
00:35:29,502 --> 00:35:33,022
Speaker 3: sexual encounter or when they were teenage girls, and I didn't.

708
00:35:33,142 --> 00:35:36,142
Speaker 3: And I think that has paved the way for a

709
00:35:36,221 --> 00:35:40,821
Speaker 3: really good relationship with my sex life and with myself

710
00:35:40,942 --> 00:35:43,701
Speaker 3: and with sexual pleasure and all of those things because

711
00:35:44,261 --> 00:35:46,542
Speaker 3: it was in a committed relationships.

712
00:35:46,902 --> 00:35:51,302
Speaker 2: That's so interesting because it's true everybody kind of marks

713
00:35:51,382 --> 00:35:54,821
Speaker 2: you as a teenage parent of a daughter of as

714
00:35:54,862 --> 00:35:58,102
Speaker 2: whether or not she is the gil exactly. They're not

715
00:35:58,221 --> 00:36:01,502
Speaker 2: saying that out loud. The questions people always ask me

716
00:36:01,542 --> 00:36:04,181
Speaker 2: about my teenage daughter. Sometimes I'm just like, come on,

717
00:36:04,422 --> 00:36:06,622
Speaker 2: but really, you know, it's really.

718
00:36:06,342 --> 00:36:07,661
Speaker 1: Probably I'm the one that ill you.

719
00:36:07,781 --> 00:36:08,422
Speaker 2: But that's okay, But.

720
00:36:09,902 --> 00:36:10,582
Speaker 1: But I know what you mean.

721
00:36:10,622 --> 00:36:13,022
Speaker 3: It's like as if a father's job.

722
00:36:12,982 --> 00:36:14,741
Speaker 2: Is to the shotgun on the porch.

723
00:36:14,942 --> 00:36:18,102
Speaker 3: Yeah, and to hold that off for as long as possible,

724
00:36:18,181 --> 00:36:19,262
Speaker 3: And it's like, is it?

725
00:36:19,342 --> 00:36:22,341
Speaker 2: I mean, I know anyway, I always ask you for

726
00:36:22,382 --> 00:36:25,861
Speaker 2: parental advice, and you are one of my village of

727
00:36:25,982 --> 00:36:28,341
Speaker 2: oracles because you're always a bit ahead. You've always been

728
00:36:28,342 --> 00:36:31,221
Speaker 2: ahead of me. And often the thing, the pattern that

729
00:36:31,261 --> 00:36:34,341
Speaker 2: plays out is you go, you tell me this, and

730
00:36:34,382 --> 00:36:38,102
Speaker 2: I got that will never happen, all right, yeah, yeah, yeah,

731
00:36:38,142 --> 00:36:38,901
Speaker 2: I don't think so.

732
00:36:38,942 --> 00:36:41,502
Speaker 3: And then of course I can't imagine it until it happens, right.

733
00:36:41,862 --> 00:36:43,542
Speaker 3: And my mum did the same with me, like I

734
00:36:43,582 --> 00:36:46,142
Speaker 3: would talk to her about because I've got an eldest

735
00:36:46,181 --> 00:36:49,261
Speaker 3: son who my son's twenty seven, my daughter's nineteen, and

736
00:36:49,302 --> 00:36:51,902
Speaker 3: i've got a younger son who's sixteen. And I remember

737
00:36:51,942 --> 00:36:54,381
Speaker 3: saying to her about my eldest son. Oh, I don't

738
00:36:54,422 --> 00:36:56,342
Speaker 3: think he's drinking yet, and she's like, Darling, if you

739
00:36:56,342 --> 00:36:59,341
Speaker 3: think he's not drinking, he's drinking. And I'm like, do

740
00:36:59,382 --> 00:37:01,821
Speaker 3: you think so? Of course he was drinking. But I

741
00:37:01,862 --> 00:37:04,062
Speaker 3: think you can be a little bit blind to what's

742
00:37:04,102 --> 00:37:07,062
Speaker 3: going on with your own children. And even where I

743
00:37:07,102 --> 00:37:10,302
Speaker 3: thought my daughter was up to when she was younger,

744
00:37:10,502 --> 00:37:12,661
Speaker 3: you know, now she's at the age we have a great,

745
00:37:12,902 --> 00:37:14,382
Speaker 3: very open and honest relationship.

746
00:37:14,422 --> 00:37:16,062
Speaker 1: And I thought we did then, but.

747
00:37:16,142 --> 00:37:18,221
Speaker 3: Now she tells me there are a whole bunch of

748
00:37:18,261 --> 00:37:21,181
Speaker 3: things that I had no idea about. Oh, my mother

749
00:37:21,221 --> 00:37:23,902
Speaker 3: has not still has no idea. Yeah, and exactly my

750
00:37:24,462 --> 00:37:27,422
Speaker 3: mother doesn't either. So I think that, you know, teenagers

751
00:37:27,422 --> 00:37:30,062
Speaker 3: are rat bags in all the in good ways, like

752
00:37:30,142 --> 00:37:33,262
Speaker 3: because that's their job. In some ways, the rat bags,

753
00:37:33,462 --> 00:37:34,942
Speaker 3: their job is to push the envelope.

754
00:37:38,582 --> 00:37:40,822
Speaker 2: When we come back, MEA and I are talking about

755
00:37:40,822 --> 00:37:46,181
Speaker 2: parenting and friendship. I wanted to ask you though, because

756
00:37:46,221 --> 00:37:48,142
Speaker 2: obviously I know you and I know your family, and

757
00:37:48,701 --> 00:37:51,622
Speaker 2: you seem to have really good relationships with your kids.

758
00:37:51,661 --> 00:37:54,181
Speaker 2: I've always thought that, like I see them around you

759
00:37:54,181 --> 00:37:56,861
Speaker 2: when they don't think anybody's looking, and they're affectionate and

760
00:37:56,902 --> 00:37:58,701
Speaker 2: they take the piss out of you, which I think

761
00:37:58,822 --> 00:38:02,901
Speaker 2: is very healthy in parental relationships. But you know you're

762
00:38:02,942 --> 00:38:06,022
Speaker 2: obviously very close. Do you have any words of advice

763
00:38:06,062 --> 00:38:08,142
Speaker 2: for how you get through that period of well like this,

764
00:38:08,422 --> 00:38:10,782
Speaker 2: because we've often talked about how your kids are little

765
00:38:11,221 --> 00:38:13,661
Speaker 2: and they think you're amazing, and then they go through

766
00:38:13,701 --> 00:38:16,701
Speaker 2: adolescents and they think you're an idiot and they want

767
00:38:16,781 --> 00:38:19,781
Speaker 2: and the door closes. Whether they're boys or girls in

768
00:38:19,822 --> 00:38:22,502
Speaker 2: different ways at different times, the door closes, and you're

769
00:38:22,622 --> 00:38:25,902
Speaker 2: just then the desperate I sometimes feel like a desperate

770
00:38:27,062 --> 00:38:28,701
Speaker 2: girlfriend who's like going, do you want to go to

771
00:38:28,741 --> 00:38:30,821
Speaker 2: the shops with me? Do you want to come out

772
00:38:30,822 --> 00:38:33,582
Speaker 2: with me? I'll buy you a thing. I'll buy you

773
00:38:33,622 --> 00:38:36,901
Speaker 2: a thing if it means we can hang out. And

774
00:38:37,862 --> 00:38:39,861
Speaker 2: I am always kind of I'm in a conflict with

775
00:38:39,902 --> 00:38:42,421
Speaker 2: myself about how much to just respect the closed door

776
00:38:42,542 --> 00:38:45,542
Speaker 2: and let the space, or how much to stay close.

777
00:38:45,701 --> 00:38:49,462
Speaker 2: And I think what I probably want more than anything

778
00:38:49,502 --> 00:38:52,982
Speaker 2: from my parental relationship as the kids get older, is

779
00:38:53,302 --> 00:38:55,301
Speaker 2: I just want them to be close to me. Yeah,

780
00:38:55,382 --> 00:38:58,262
Speaker 2: like I want I want that relationship. I don't expect

781
00:38:58,342 --> 00:39:01,142
Speaker 2: to tell me everything, but I want that relationship to

782
00:39:01,181 --> 00:39:04,502
Speaker 2: be a positive one. What's your best advice for getting

783
00:39:04,502 --> 00:39:05,221
Speaker 2: through the closed door?

784
00:39:05,422 --> 00:39:06,422
Speaker 1: Look, I'm no guru.

785
00:39:06,661 --> 00:39:10,661
Speaker 3: I think that the worst thing is to try and

786
00:39:10,741 --> 00:39:13,821
Speaker 3: knock it down, or even to knock on it all

787
00:39:13,862 --> 00:39:16,142
Speaker 3: the time. You've just got to sort of sit outside

788
00:39:16,261 --> 00:39:18,982
Speaker 3: and wait till the door opens again. And when it

789
00:39:19,022 --> 00:39:21,582
Speaker 3: opens a crack, you have to try and be disciplined

790
00:39:21,622 --> 00:39:24,942
Speaker 3: and not like rush through it. And I only know

791
00:39:25,022 --> 00:39:27,982
Speaker 3: this through trial and error. And what's interesting to me

792
00:39:28,181 --> 00:39:32,982
Speaker 3: is the difference in sons and daughters. So in my experience,

793
00:39:33,062 --> 00:39:37,781
Speaker 3: boys pull away around puberty time, and that can be

794
00:39:37,862 --> 00:39:41,301
Speaker 3: devastating from mother, like that's been a massive source of

795
00:39:41,302 --> 00:39:46,381
Speaker 3: grief for me. But they do come back, but they

796
00:39:46,382 --> 00:39:48,661
Speaker 3: can be gone a couple of years, like a good

797
00:39:48,701 --> 00:39:56,062
Speaker 3: few years. And with girls though, that's when you clash

798
00:39:56,382 --> 00:40:00,861
Speaker 3: like it. Sometimes you wish they'd pull away, you know,

799
00:40:01,661 --> 00:40:04,302
Speaker 3: but they don't. They are all up in your grill,

800
00:40:05,102 --> 00:40:11,261
Speaker 3: giving you a character assissment. Yeah, can feel like a

801
00:40:11,342 --> 00:40:14,942
Speaker 3: bit of an abusive relationship sometimes, because you know, my

802
00:40:15,022 --> 00:40:18,622
Speaker 3: mother always said to me, if your kids not that

803
00:40:18,661 --> 00:40:20,781
Speaker 3: you want to encourage them treating you like shit, but

804
00:40:21,982 --> 00:40:28,221
Speaker 3: if they can tell you things that are uncomfortable. It

805
00:40:28,302 --> 00:40:31,142
Speaker 3: means they feel secure that you're going to be there

806
00:40:32,062 --> 00:40:34,661
Speaker 3: on the other side of that, you know, And the

807
00:40:34,701 --> 00:40:41,062
Speaker 3: biggest challenge is to just stay strong and stay solid

808
00:40:41,862 --> 00:40:44,301
Speaker 3: so that they can act out. They can do this,

809
00:40:44,422 --> 00:40:47,381
Speaker 3: they can do that, but they know that they can

810
00:40:47,542 --> 00:40:49,661
Speaker 3: depend on you and rely on you.

811
00:40:49,942 --> 00:40:53,821
Speaker 2: It's hard not to get offended sometimes. By the end

812
00:40:53,822 --> 00:40:56,102
Speaker 2: the book, Ginger, one of the characters, says that she

813
00:40:56,142 --> 00:40:58,181
Speaker 2: feels with her teenage daughter that she's given birth to

814
00:40:58,221 --> 00:41:01,462
Speaker 2: her own anacritic like the yes ther own voice in

815
00:41:01,502 --> 00:41:03,062
Speaker 2: your head that's always telling you all the things are

816
00:41:03,062 --> 00:41:06,661
Speaker 2: wrong with you. Show by your childhood telling you all

817
00:41:06,701 --> 00:41:07,741
Speaker 2: the things that's wrong with you.

818
00:41:07,822 --> 00:41:10,822
Speaker 3: It's like your worst in a monologue like that follows

819
00:41:10,822 --> 00:41:12,942
Speaker 3: you around and gives you a character assessment.

820
00:41:12,942 --> 00:41:13,661
Speaker 1: And I noticed that.

821
00:41:13,622 --> 00:41:17,341
Speaker 3: Even with my own mother, Like I remember once I

822
00:41:17,382 --> 00:41:20,102
Speaker 3: was in my twenties or in my thirties and I

823
00:41:20,181 --> 00:41:21,462
Speaker 3: was just I was at a house and I was

824
00:41:21,502 --> 00:41:24,542
Speaker 3: like bitching about this and why have you done this

825
00:41:24,622 --> 00:41:27,221
Speaker 3: and this thing? And I was just being really critical

826
00:41:27,261 --> 00:41:30,462
Speaker 3: and she's like, can you just stop being mean to me?

827
00:41:31,181 --> 00:41:35,542
Speaker 3: And it was like, oh yeah, right, Like daughters are

828
00:41:35,582 --> 00:41:39,301
Speaker 3: tough on their mothers, like really tough, and I think

829
00:41:39,302 --> 00:41:41,822
Speaker 3: that you've got to hold that line between not letting

830
00:41:41,862 --> 00:41:44,901
Speaker 3: them treat you like shit but also not getting too

831
00:41:44,902 --> 00:41:45,701
Speaker 3: wounded by it.

832
00:41:45,942 --> 00:41:48,261
Speaker 2: Yeah. Last thing I want to ask you is there's

833
00:41:48,261 --> 00:41:50,062
Speaker 2: a lot of talk as we're recording. There's lots to

834
00:41:50,062 --> 00:41:52,701
Speaker 2: talk about this around the White Lotus, which is so

835
00:41:53,102 --> 00:41:55,502
Speaker 2: centers on these three women who are friends when they

836
00:41:55,502 --> 00:41:58,582
Speaker 2: were teenagers. But there's a lot of discussion about are

837
00:41:58,622 --> 00:42:01,701
Speaker 2: you stuck, like are you who you were as a teenager,

838
00:42:02,582 --> 00:42:05,181
Speaker 2: and whether or not that person still exists or not.

839
00:42:05,422 --> 00:42:08,062
Speaker 2: Do you think you are still the same Maya? The

840
00:42:08,062 --> 00:42:09,301
Speaker 2: same fifteen year old Maya?

841
00:42:09,342 --> 00:42:09,542
Speaker 1: Yeah?

842
00:42:10,102 --> 00:42:14,341
Speaker 2: Do you what's the same and what's different? I mean,

843
00:42:14,342 --> 00:42:15,542
Speaker 2: your clothes are still I.

844
00:42:15,502 --> 00:42:18,381
Speaker 3: Think my clothes is still silly. I mean very still,

845
00:42:18,462 --> 00:42:21,301
Speaker 3: very intense. I'm still very.

846
00:42:23,342 --> 00:42:25,221
Speaker 2: People used to tell you that when you're a teenager

847
00:42:25,221 --> 00:42:26,062
Speaker 2: that you were intense.

848
00:42:27,382 --> 00:42:29,901
Speaker 3: No, because that's not how teenagers are. That's probably how

849
00:42:29,942 --> 00:42:30,661
Speaker 3: they talk now.

850
00:42:30,902 --> 00:42:33,102
Speaker 2: No, you're so right. No one spoke like that.

851
00:42:33,382 --> 00:42:39,542
Speaker 3: No they didn't, you know, but I'm certainly very focused.

852
00:42:40,342 --> 00:42:43,701
Speaker 3: Like my female friends are still everything to me. There's

853
00:42:43,781 --> 00:42:47,502
Speaker 3: such an important part of me. I was close to

854
00:42:47,542 --> 00:42:50,181
Speaker 3: my family then, even though I had did the same

855
00:42:50,181 --> 00:42:52,861
Speaker 3: thing to my mum and my kids are close to

856
00:42:52,942 --> 00:42:55,181
Speaker 3: me now and I'm still close to my parents.

857
00:42:56,462 --> 00:43:00,022
Speaker 1: You know, I wanted I needed attention and I needed validation.

858
00:43:00,582 --> 00:43:03,941
Speaker 3: I was pretty extroverted, but also needed time on my own.

859
00:43:04,382 --> 00:43:04,582
Speaker 2: Yeah.

860
00:43:04,661 --> 00:43:06,742
Speaker 1: I think essentially I'm the same.

861
00:43:06,942 --> 00:43:11,102
Speaker 3: And when I think about my school friends, my girlfriends

862
00:43:11,102 --> 00:43:13,502
Speaker 3: from school, it's funny. After watching White Lotus, I felt

863
00:43:13,502 --> 00:43:15,462
Speaker 3: the need to reach out to them again, which we

864
00:43:16,102 --> 00:43:18,662
Speaker 3: also did when COVID started. A lot of people reached

865
00:43:18,701 --> 00:43:22,261
Speaker 3: out to their school friends. It was like this primal thing.

866
00:43:23,102 --> 00:43:26,221
Speaker 3: I don't know what it was about, but I'm the

867
00:43:26,261 --> 00:43:28,341
Speaker 3: same as I am. When I think about who I

868
00:43:28,382 --> 00:43:32,301
Speaker 3: am around them, it's the same, like the same as

869
00:43:32,302 --> 00:43:34,661
Speaker 3: who I am. Yeah yeah, yeah, but it's the same

870
00:43:34,701 --> 00:43:36,622
Speaker 3: as also who I am now. Like, It's not like

871
00:43:37,062 --> 00:43:40,821
Speaker 3: I would be a completely different person around my school girlfriends.

872
00:43:41,822 --> 00:43:43,661
Speaker 2: What do you think teenage mea would have been like

873
00:43:43,701 --> 00:43:46,622
Speaker 2: in the age of Oh my god, you would have

874
00:43:46,661 --> 00:43:46,902
Speaker 2: loved me.

875
00:43:47,462 --> 00:43:49,502
Speaker 3: I would have, but it would have destroyed me like

876
00:43:49,582 --> 00:43:53,222
Speaker 3: I would have. I mean, thank God, because so much

877
00:43:53,382 --> 00:43:59,182
Speaker 3: no impulse control, no sense of consequence, loving attention, always

878
00:43:59,221 --> 00:44:01,861
Speaker 3: wanting to do more things. I think it could have

879
00:44:01,942 --> 00:44:05,861
Speaker 3: been a really, really bad, bad thing for me. I mean,

880
00:44:05,902 --> 00:44:07,301
Speaker 3: I would have loved it, but it would have I

881
00:44:07,382 --> 00:44:08,861
Speaker 3: just don't think it would have served me well.

882
00:44:08,942 --> 00:44:11,781
Speaker 2: You always that we're parenting in a time where we,

883
00:44:12,302 --> 00:44:14,422
Speaker 2: for the first time, we didn't face any of the

884
00:44:14,542 --> 00:44:17,902
Speaker 2: things that are they're dealing with. And I think that

885
00:44:17,982 --> 00:44:20,862
Speaker 2: being a teenage girl, one of the problems now is

886
00:44:20,902 --> 00:44:22,502
Speaker 2: that there are all these traps there for you, that

887
00:44:22,542 --> 00:44:24,622
Speaker 2: all the worst things you think about yourself can now

888
00:44:24,661 --> 00:44:27,662
Speaker 2: be reaffirmed by strangers, correct, friend groups.

889
00:44:27,902 --> 00:44:32,022
Speaker 3: Correct, because all that, you know, we had ideas about popularity,

890
00:44:32,062 --> 00:44:35,022
Speaker 3: and you kind of every girl teenage girl knows who

891
00:44:35,022 --> 00:44:36,421
Speaker 3: are the popular girls.

892
00:44:36,102 --> 00:44:37,422
Speaker 1: And who aren't.

893
00:44:38,181 --> 00:44:42,701
Speaker 3: And yet we didn't have empirical evidence in terms of

894
00:44:42,902 --> 00:44:46,701
Speaker 3: likes and followers and things going viral and comments on

895
00:44:46,741 --> 00:44:50,142
Speaker 3: our posts. You know, all that stuff lived in our head.

896
00:44:50,741 --> 00:44:52,582
Speaker 3: I can't imagine you know me neither.

897
00:44:52,942 --> 00:44:54,902
Speaker 2: Maya Friedman, thank you for coming on and talking to

898
00:44:54,982 --> 00:44:55,622
Speaker 2: me about my book.

899
00:44:55,701 --> 00:44:56,861
Speaker 1: Congratulations.

900
00:44:57,102 --> 00:45:00,102
Speaker 3: He would never five families, fourteen years of friendship, one

901
00:45:00,142 --> 00:45:05,102
Speaker 3: long weekend. It's your best work, but by so far.

902
00:45:05,741 --> 00:45:13,661
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, friends. He Would Never is in

903
00:45:13,701 --> 00:45:17,142
Speaker 2: shops on April twenty nine. If it sounds like something

904
00:45:17,181 --> 00:45:19,821
Speaker 2: you'd love reading, please follow the link in our show

905
00:45:19,862 --> 00:45:22,421
Speaker 2: notes of this episode to buy or pre order it.

906
00:45:22,422 --> 00:45:25,582
Speaker 2: It would mean the world. And while you're sitting down

907
00:45:25,661 --> 00:45:28,142
Speaker 2: doing that, please also hit follow all like on this

908
00:45:28,221 --> 00:45:31,622
Speaker 2: podcast wherever you're listening to it. It genuinely helps other

909
00:45:31,661 --> 00:45:34,062
Speaker 2: people find this show. If you feel like leaving a

910
00:45:34,062 --> 00:45:37,382
Speaker 2: review even better. An enormous thank you from me to

911
00:45:37,422 --> 00:45:40,381
Speaker 2: Mia Friedman for changing my life in many ways, but

912
00:45:40,462 --> 00:45:42,782
Speaker 2: also for coming and sitting down with me for mid

913
00:45:43,142 --> 00:45:46,221
Speaker 2: I know sitting down is her least favorite thing, but

914
00:45:46,302 --> 00:45:48,462
Speaker 2: I told you there was a surprise at the end

915
00:45:48,462 --> 00:45:51,342
Speaker 2: of this episode, and there is. I wanted to read

916
00:45:51,422 --> 00:45:54,701
Speaker 2: you an exclusive passage from he Would Never one that

917
00:45:54,902 --> 00:45:57,781
Speaker 2: very much reflects what MEA and I discussed in the show.

918
00:45:58,622 --> 00:46:00,542
Speaker 2: What You're about to Hear is part of a chapter

919
00:46:00,622 --> 00:46:03,661
Speaker 2: told from the perspective of Lyra, a fourteen year old girl.

920
00:46:04,221 --> 00:46:06,461
Speaker 2: The book is about her mother and her mother's friends,

921
00:46:06,462 --> 00:46:08,301
Speaker 2: who all met at mother's group when their kids were

922
00:46:08,342 --> 00:46:12,622
Speaker 2: babies babies anymore, and when we meet Lyra, she's thinking

923
00:46:12,661 --> 00:46:15,341
Speaker 2: back to the time she felt her world tilt in

924
00:46:15,382 --> 00:46:18,142
Speaker 2: the way Mia and I were discussing today. The moment

925
00:46:18,342 --> 00:46:20,822
Speaker 2: was in a swimming pool at her mum's best friend's house,

926
00:46:21,342 --> 00:46:24,261
Speaker 2: and Lockie Short, who she's been encouraged to consider as

927
00:46:24,302 --> 00:46:26,902
Speaker 2: some kind of uncle, is talking to her in a

928
00:46:26,942 --> 00:46:30,542
Speaker 2: way she hasn't heard before. The executive producer of me

929
00:46:30,661 --> 00:46:33,822
Speaker 2: and his name of Brown. The senior producer is Grace Rufray.

930
00:46:34,181 --> 00:46:36,821
Speaker 2: Our producer is Charlie Blackman, and we've had audio and

931
00:46:36,862 --> 00:46:40,342
Speaker 2: sound designed by Jacob Brown. Enjoy this little bit of

932
00:46:40,502 --> 00:46:46,821
Speaker 2: he would never Tia was Lyra's best friend, but they

933
00:46:46,822 --> 00:46:50,702
Speaker 2: were pretty different. They went to different schools now. Tia

934
00:46:50,781 --> 00:46:53,221
Speaker 2: went to a really posh school with no rules, and

935
00:46:53,302 --> 00:46:56,261
Speaker 2: Lyra went to Saint Deirdre's, which was medium posh but

936
00:46:56,302 --> 00:46:59,822
Speaker 2: had lots of rules, mostly to do with God. Tia

937
00:46:59,902 --> 00:47:02,782
Speaker 2: did dance and drama and Lyra did netball and soccer,

938
00:47:02,902 --> 00:47:04,582
Speaker 2: so they didn't see each other as much as they

939
00:47:04,701 --> 00:47:06,861
Speaker 2: used to when they both went to Bronte Public and

940
00:47:06,862 --> 00:47:09,821
Speaker 2: didn't have so much to do. But Tia wasill the

941
00:47:09,862 --> 00:47:12,781
Speaker 2: one who Lyrah felt most comfortable with of all her

942
00:47:12,781 --> 00:47:15,901
Speaker 2: friend group. The others you always had to watch what

943
00:47:15,942 --> 00:47:18,502
Speaker 2: you said, or sometimes you might get to school and

944
00:47:18,622 --> 00:47:21,701
Speaker 2: find out through a feeling in your stomach, or in

945
00:47:21,741 --> 00:47:23,701
Speaker 2: the way one of the girls was talking to you,

946
00:47:24,181 --> 00:47:26,982
Speaker 2: or in how they didn't answer or even open your messages,

947
00:47:27,302 --> 00:47:30,381
Speaker 2: that there had been a shift. That's how you'd find

948
00:47:30,422 --> 00:47:33,181
Speaker 2: out you'd done something. You were out, and you'd have

949
00:47:33,221 --> 00:47:36,901
Speaker 2: to work your way back in. It was tiring. She

950
00:47:36,982 --> 00:47:39,982
Speaker 2: was never out with Tea. They could be silly together

951
00:47:40,142 --> 00:47:43,142
Speaker 2: like babies, or they could be teenagers together trying on

952
00:47:43,261 --> 00:47:45,942
Speaker 2: who they might like to be next. It didn't matter.

953
00:47:46,181 --> 00:47:49,982
Speaker 2: It was always easy. Lyra thought about the first time

954
00:47:50,062 --> 00:47:52,622
Speaker 2: Tears Dad Lockie had spoken to her in a way

955
00:47:52,661 --> 00:47:54,741
Speaker 2: that was different from how the other grown ups did.

956
00:47:55,261 --> 00:47:58,462
Speaker 2: The first time, she was confused. She had been at

957
00:47:58,462 --> 00:48:01,062
Speaker 2: Tears and they had all been in the pool. One

958
00:48:01,062 --> 00:48:04,301
Speaker 2: of the first swims of last summer. Auntie Liz had

959
00:48:04,342 --> 00:48:06,622
Speaker 2: a swimming pool with an infinity edge like you saw

960
00:48:06,661 --> 00:48:10,102
Speaker 2: in fancy hotels. On TikTok Auntie Lisa, it made you

961
00:48:10,142 --> 00:48:12,622
Speaker 2: feel like you were drifting out to sea, as if

962
00:48:12,622 --> 00:48:16,342
Speaker 2: that were a good thing. Everyone was getting out except Lira,

963
00:48:16,502 --> 00:48:18,861
Speaker 2: because there was nothing Lira liked more than floating on

964
00:48:18,902 --> 00:48:21,981
Speaker 2: her back looking up at the sky. Tia and Lis

965
00:48:22,022 --> 00:48:24,182
Speaker 2: and the little kids had all piled towards the kitchen

966
00:48:24,221 --> 00:48:27,062
Speaker 2: to get food, but Lockie had stayed behind, and he

967
00:48:27,142 --> 00:48:30,221
Speaker 2: was looking at her. You look a lot like your mother,

968
00:48:30,462 --> 00:48:33,462
Speaker 2: he'd said, which wasn't what she'd wanted to hear, but okay,

969
00:48:33,942 --> 00:48:37,181
Speaker 2: Then he said, you know she is extremely dear to us,

970
00:48:37,221 --> 00:48:39,661
Speaker 2: don't you. And there have been something about the way

971
00:48:39,701 --> 00:48:42,741
Speaker 2: he said it words that people don't usually use, a

972
00:48:42,862 --> 00:48:46,062
Speaker 2: question that didn't need an answer. Adults were always asking

973
00:48:46,142 --> 00:48:50,102
Speaker 2: questions that weren't questions, but they usually used normal words.

974
00:48:50,661 --> 00:48:54,342
Speaker 2: Liz would do anything for your mom, me too, Auntie.

975
00:48:54,342 --> 00:48:56,462
Speaker 2: Lis is very good to us. Lyra knew to be

976
00:48:56,502 --> 00:48:59,181
Speaker 2: grateful to the Shorts the number of times over the

977
00:48:59,261 --> 00:49:01,221
Speaker 2: years that she'd heard her mother say she didn't know

978
00:49:01,261 --> 00:49:04,542
Speaker 2: where she'd be without Lis. Lira wanted to get out

979
00:49:04,701 --> 00:49:07,102
Speaker 2: to go and find Tia, but there was something about

980
00:49:07,102 --> 00:49:09,062
Speaker 2: the way Lockie kept looking at her that made her

981
00:49:09,102 --> 00:49:12,462
Speaker 2: want to see covered by the water. It was the

982
00:49:12,582 --> 00:49:15,982
Speaker 2: year that eyes had started moving differently over her. At

983
00:49:15,982 --> 00:49:19,221
Speaker 2: the beach on the street, Lyra was wearing what she

984
00:49:19,261 --> 00:49:21,821
Speaker 2: and her friends were always wearing, but suddenly it all

985
00:49:21,862 --> 00:49:25,181
Speaker 2: meant something different. It was like a spotlight was suddenly

986
00:49:25,181 --> 00:49:27,582
Speaker 2: pointed right at her, And sometimes it felt good to

987
00:49:27,582 --> 00:49:31,582
Speaker 2: be picked out scene, but sometimes it felt scary, and

988
00:49:31,661 --> 00:49:34,022
Speaker 2: she hadn't ever thought about it feeling scary with people.

989
00:49:34,022 --> 00:49:37,181
Speaker 2: You'd always known that maybe all men had that light

990
00:49:37,261 --> 00:49:39,701
Speaker 2: with them, and they could shine it at you whenever

991
00:49:39,741 --> 00:49:43,301
Speaker 2: they wanted. I should find tea, she'd said from the water,

992
00:49:43,502 --> 00:49:45,542
Speaker 2: but she didn't move to pull herself up and out

993
00:49:45,542 --> 00:49:48,742
Speaker 2: onto the deck. Go away, she remembered, feeling turn away.

994
00:49:49,701 --> 00:49:51,901
Speaker 2: Someone needs to look out for you girls, he'd said,

995
00:49:52,102 --> 00:49:55,582
Speaker 2: Now you're growing up. Your mum's so busy. We're fine,

996
00:49:55,701 --> 00:49:59,181
Speaker 2: she'd said, quickly, and then remembered, thank you. Lockie had

997
00:49:59,221 --> 00:50:01,822
Speaker 2: picked up a towel Auntie Lissa's house had the best,

998
00:50:01,862 --> 00:50:04,822
Speaker 2: thick soft towels, big enough to wrap around your whole body,

999
00:50:05,302 --> 00:50:07,341
Speaker 2: and took two steps towards the edge of the pool,

1000
00:50:07,382 --> 00:50:10,422
Speaker 2: where Lyra's arms were resting. She'd put her chin on

1001
00:50:10,502 --> 00:50:13,102
Speaker 2: them and looked down at where the water was licking

1002
00:50:13,142 --> 00:50:16,221
Speaker 2: in and out of the shiny little square tiles, anywhere

1003
00:50:16,221 --> 00:50:19,181
Speaker 2: but up at him. Come on, then, he said, squatting

1004
00:50:19,181 --> 00:50:21,982
Speaker 2: down holding the towel out, Let's go and get some food.

1005
00:50:23,062 --> 00:50:25,542
Speaker 2: How many times had lyra jumped out of this pool

1006
00:50:25,622 --> 00:50:27,982
Speaker 2: and run into the kitchen in a little sunsuit, in

1007
00:50:28,062 --> 00:50:31,582
Speaker 2: a swimming lesson one piece in a bikini, without thinking,

1008
00:50:31,862 --> 00:50:34,661
Speaker 2: without even being aware of herself, of her arms and

1009
00:50:34,741 --> 00:50:37,982
Speaker 2: legs and tommy and chest. Why did she feel in

1010
00:50:37,982 --> 00:50:40,342
Speaker 2: that moment when she glanced up and saw the crease

1011
00:50:40,382 --> 00:50:43,542
Speaker 2: around Lockey Short's eyes and the particular curve of his

1012
00:50:43,701 --> 00:50:48,301
Speaker 2: closed mouth smile, like everything was different. She remembered the

1013
00:50:48,382 --> 00:50:51,341
Speaker 2: rough grout scratching her stomach as she'd pushed her whole

1014
00:50:51,422 --> 00:50:54,902
Speaker 2: self flat against the pool wall, hiding her bum, her thighs,

1015
00:50:54,942 --> 00:50:59,342
Speaker 2: her flicking feet. Lockie hadn't moved, He'd stayed close, towel

1016
00:50:59,382 --> 00:51:02,622
Speaker 2: and hands. You girls should get bigger cozies, he'd said,

1017
00:51:03,102 --> 00:51:06,342
Speaker 2: and she could hear something like a tease in his voice, friendly,

1018
00:51:06,422 --> 00:51:09,142
Speaker 2: maybe a tone that suggested everything she was feeling was

1019
00:51:09,181 --> 00:51:12,142
Speaker 2: ridiculed less. But then if you don't want to be

1020
00:51:12,181 --> 00:51:15,382
Speaker 2: looked at, and she remembered feeling sick in her mouth,