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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the

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Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is

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Speaker 1: recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Grace Rubray. This is Mumma MEA's twice daily news podcast,

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Speaker 3: The Quickie. Ever day dreamed about another job, something a

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Speaker 3: little less stressful, more fun. Maybe you work inside and

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Speaker 3: you wish you were outside, or vice versa. Well, the

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Speaker 3: Internet has coined a new phrase. They think that you

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Speaker 3: want a dumb job when you're done with your current job.

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Speaker 3: It's too hard, too stressful, and he just wants something simpler.

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Speaker 3: But before we start refreshing our CVS, here's the latest

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Speaker 3: from the Quickie newsroom for Friday, October four. Israel's military

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Speaker 3: has told residents of more than twenty towns in southern

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Speaker 3: Lebanon to leave their homes immediately as it presses on

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Speaker 3: with cross border incursions. The latest warnings took the number

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Speaker 3: of southern towns subject to evacuation calls to seventy Hesbela

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Speaker 3: also carried out new strikes. Rocket sirens white ailed constantly

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Speaker 3: in northern Israeli towns, sending residents running for shelter. Israel

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Speaker 3: sent troops into southern Lebanon on Tuesday, after two weeks

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Speaker 3: of intense air strikes in a worsening conflict that has

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Speaker 3: drawn in Iran and risk storing in the United States.

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Speaker 3: Israel says the aim of its operations in Lebanon is

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Speaker 3: to allow tens of thousands of its citizens displaced from

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Speaker 3: northern Israel by Hesbela bombardments to return home safely. There

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Speaker 3: are growing concerns about getting medical supplies for the wounded,

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Speaker 3: and the World Health Organization said twenty eight health care

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Speaker 3: workers had been killed in Lebanon in the previous twenty

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Speaker 3: four hours. A National Commissioner will be appointed to turn

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Speaker 3: around the over representation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander

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Speaker 3: children in out of home care and youth detention. The

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Speaker 3: National Commission for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children and

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Speaker 3: Young People will begin operations in January. Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 3: Strait Island to children are almost eleven times more likely

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Speaker 3: to be and out of home care than non Indigenous

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Speaker 3: young people and twenty nine times more likely to be

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Speaker 3: in neuse detention. A First Nation's person will be appointed

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Speaker 3: to lead the body. Their job to protect and promote

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Speaker 3: the rights of Indigenous children and young people across a

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Speaker 3: range of issues. Safety advocates are calling for more medically

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Speaker 3: supervised injecting centers across Australia to help prevent drug overdose deaths.

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Speaker 3: The calls come after Victoria recorded five hundred and forty

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Speaker 3: seven fatal overdoses in twenty twenty three, three fewer than

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Speaker 3: the state's deadliest year on record in twenty twenty two. Diazepan,

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Speaker 3: a sedative often used to treat anxiety, was the deadliest

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Speaker 3: drug contributing to overdose deaths. Heroin accounted for the second highest,

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Speaker 3: and methamphetamines with the third highest contributor. The city of

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Speaker 3: Yarra which hosts a medically supervised injecting room in North Richmond.

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Speaker 3: From July twenty twenty three to June of this year,

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Speaker 3: the injecting facility had more than ninety eight thousand visits

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Speaker 3: and safely managed one thy seven hundred and fifty overdoses

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Speaker 3: with no loss of life. The Victorian Drug and Alcohol

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Speaker 3: Association said the data showed a clear need for more

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Speaker 3: medically supervised injecting centers in high risk area is a

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Speaker 3: Phenomenal demand for tickets has seen oasis add more North

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Speaker 3: American dates to their twenty twenty five reunion tour. After

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Speaker 3: announcing their first show since their two thousand and nine split,

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Speaker 3: Liam and Noel Gallagher revealed new stops in Toronto, East Rutherford,

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Speaker 3: Los Angeles and Mexico City. The band, who broke up

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Speaker 3: after a backstage fight in two thousand and nine, has

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Speaker 3: already sold out nineteen stadium shows in the UK and Ireland.

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Speaker 3: Fans in the UK and Island had complained about Ticketmaster's

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Speaker 3: dynamic pricing, which led to higher ticket costs, but Oasis

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Speaker 3: confirmed this policy wouldn't apply to the North American dates.

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Speaker 3: That's your latest news headlines next. Do you love your

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Speaker 3: job or has the thought of something easier got you

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Speaker 3: looking for greener pastures? A recent article from The Cut

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Speaker 3: has introduced the term dumb job, and, whilst you may

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Speaker 3: not agree with the terminology, given every job has its

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Speaker 3: fair share of complexities, a dumb you know what, let's

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Speaker 3: just call it a more easy going job can really

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Speaker 3: be broken down into a thought process. The dream job

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Speaker 3: is not what you thought it would be. The land

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Speaker 3: of the role you want, the pay you want, but

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Speaker 3: it comes with bad hours, a toxic workplace, no boundaries,

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Speaker 3: and you envy all the people around you with jobs

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Speaker 3: perhaps perceived as easier. The once seemingly idyllic perks now

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Speaker 3: morphed into canceling social plans, leaving texts unread unanswered. You're

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Speaker 3: falling out of health and wellness routines, wondering if it

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Speaker 3: was all worth it. The can't ask the question what

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Speaker 3: happens when you realize that everything you thought you wanted

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Speaker 3: in a career is actually just a mirage. COVID was

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Speaker 3: full of these realizations with big pivots in careers. In fact,

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Speaker 3: the Australian Bureau of Statistics said the number of people

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Speaker 3: switching careers has contributed to the highest rate of job

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Speaker 3: movement since twenty twelve. What used to feel satisfying about

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Speaker 3: working all hours of the day and the night to

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Speaker 3: get a project over the line at the last minute

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Speaker 3: has found people now shifting perspective. They're happy to take

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Speaker 3: on a stable, predictable job, or even specifically looking for

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Speaker 3: a government job with strict nine to five hours with

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Speaker 3: nothing to contribute to the mental load once they leave

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Speaker 3: the office or walk away from the computer. Sophie Hurst

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Speaker 3: is the founder and CEO of work Baby, an online

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Speaker 3: community for young professionals. She believes that the dumb job

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Speaker 3: is looking for a little more simplicity and stability for

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Speaker 3: an overall work life balance, and perhaps even calling something

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Speaker 3: a dream job is part of the problem. Sophie, can

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Speaker 3: you describe what you believe a dumb job is a.

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Speaker 2: Dumb job, at least in the way the Cut article

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Speaker 2: defines it is the opposite of a cool job. So

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Speaker 2: not a magazine editor or the trendy bakery owner or

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Speaker 2: the fashion art director. Their examples of boring jobs are

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Speaker 2: like a project manager, or an editor or consultant that

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Speaker 2: a tech company, or an operations manager at a food

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Speaker 2: and BEV company. I think the interesting part about this is,

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Speaker 2: are those dumb jobs it's not what I would call them.

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Speaker 2: What they are is stable and maybe just a bit

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Speaker 2: more safe and consistent. And there's actually a trend around this.

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Speaker 2: In the US, there's data around gen Z grads applying

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Speaker 2: for jobs, and it actually shows an increase in people

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Speaker 2: applying for government jobs. I'm not sure if it's the

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Speaker 2: same in Australia, but I think that's pretty fascinating, and

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Speaker 2: there's actually a slight decline in people applying for tech

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Speaker 2: roles for example. I think the bigger and more interesting

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Speaker 2: trend that this speaks to is that the perspective has

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Speaker 2: sort of shifted for gen Z and I actually think

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Speaker 2: for other generations too, from what we do for a

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Speaker 2: living to how we want to live. And people are

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Speaker 2: asking themselves, is my job my whole life pie? Or

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Speaker 2: is it just a piece of my pie? And can

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Speaker 2: I feel my self esteem and value in other ways

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Speaker 2: that isn't just my job. I don't know if you

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Speaker 2: could the same way, but definitely Millennials anyway, we will

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Speaker 2: solved this idea of a dream job, So this idea

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Speaker 2: of a passion job that had to be cool, and

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Speaker 2: I remember when I was growing up, the thing that

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Speaker 2: was in was being a slashy.

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Speaker 4: So it had to be a.

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Speaker 2: Graphic designer and a photographer, and you also had to

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Speaker 2: have a marketing job.

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Speaker 4: What you do is just one component of you enjoying

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Speaker 4: your job.

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Speaker 2: So there's other factors that come in, like the environment

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Speaker 2: to pay the time off, like how you get treated

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Speaker 2: day to day, and I think that matters just as

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Speaker 2: much as what you actually do.

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Speaker 3: So I want to get your thoughts on this. I

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Speaker 3: did a quick poll around the Mom and Me office

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Speaker 3: and I asked if you were doing a job that

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Speaker 3: wasn't your job now that you would consider easier or

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Speaker 3: less stressful. These were the most mentioned answers. A travel

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Speaker 3: agent because then they could look at holidays and plan

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Speaker 3: holidays all the time. A coffee slash bookstore owner both

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Speaker 3: said separately as a coffee shop or a bookstore. And

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Speaker 3: then people who said a coffee slash bookstore Doggie rescue.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, what do you think that.

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Speaker 3: Says about what people are wanting in their life.

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Speaker 2: I think that there is this growing recognition amongst people

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Speaker 2: that they still want good, interesting jobs, but they don't

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Speaker 2: want it to take over their life, and they don't

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Speaker 2: want to feel stressed every single day. So I actually

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Speaker 2: call this trend cozy ambition. You want a job, and

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Speaker 2: you want to be competent in your job, but you

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Speaker 2: don't want to be in this constant state of pushing

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Speaker 2: yourself all the time and growth mindset and high performance.

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Speaker 2: You sort of just want to feel good at work

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Speaker 2: and have some sense of calm and comfort. Even myself,

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Speaker 2: I remember being so stressed in my job at Google

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Speaker 2: and seeing the guy coming around and watering all the plants,

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Speaker 2: and I would just look at him and think like,

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Speaker 2: I want your job. I would actually like stop him

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Speaker 2: in the list sometimes and ask him, like, tell me

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Speaker 2: about your business.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I fully get it.

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Speaker 3: Do you know what the people who water the plants

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Speaker 3: are called? Do you know their job title?

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Speaker 4: I don't horticultural list.

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Speaker 3: No, No, they're called urban farmers.

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Speaker 4: I love that adding that to my career dream job list.

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Speaker 3: Do you think it's about the specific job that people

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Speaker 3: are doing, or maybe the specific workplace then makes people

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Speaker 3: want to switch off and do something else, or moving

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Speaker 3: into a different stage of life and they want a

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Speaker 3: slower pace.

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Speaker 2: I think it's all those things, right, So just first

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Speaker 2: of all, back to the point around your job bringing

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Speaker 2: your joy. In some ways, I think that's a bit

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Speaker 2: of a dangerous myth. I think there's parts about everyone's

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Speaker 2: job that they don't like, and I think it's like

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Speaker 2: unhelpful to think that's not normal.

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Speaker 4: So it's kind of normal to get a bit of

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Speaker 4: the Sunday scaries.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of normal to just have parts of your

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Speaker 2: job that you just like don't like. But I think

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Speaker 2: where it's dangerous is when you're starting to feel like

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Speaker 2: in this state of stress all the time at work

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Speaker 2: and then you're just starting to hate it. You spend

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Speaker 2: a lot of time in your job, and so I

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Speaker 2: think it's really important to put effort into making sure

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Speaker 2: that that experience is going to be good for you.

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Speaker 2: So if people are feeling this and they're just feeling

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Speaker 2: a bit crappy at work, there are a few things

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Speaker 2: that I think people should do. You want to try

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Speaker 2: and be proactive, not reactive. So one is just start

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Speaker 2: to pay attention to when you feel unhappy and write

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Speaker 2: down or just I don't write things down like recording

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Speaker 2: voice notes, but just like send yourself a note, and

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Speaker 2: then look for the patterns, so is it related to

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Speaker 2: certain people or certain activities, and then look at like

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Speaker 2: could that actually change in your current role? And if

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Speaker 2: the answer is yes, then it's worth having that tough

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Speaker 2: conversation with your manager where you actually talk about those things.

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Speaker 2: But the answer might be no, Like you might look

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Speaker 2: at that stuff and be like, those things can't actually change.

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Speaker 2: It's the company or it's the actual job that is

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Speaker 2: making it unhappy. And so then the next phase you

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Speaker 2: want to put yourself in is just an information seeking phase,

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Speaker 2: and this is where you're just gathering inputs that are

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Speaker 2: going to help you make a decision. So what that

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Speaker 2: looks like is you want to map out the different

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Speaker 2: possible scenarios, so like different companies, different roles, or different industries.

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Speaker 2: And then you just want to find friends or friends

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Speaker 2: of friends, so you know your second and third degree

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Speaker 2: connections on LinkedIn, and you just want to ask people.

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Speaker 2: Can I have a fifteen minute phone call with you

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Speaker 2: where I can just ask you about your job? And

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Speaker 2: there's this quote that I love that's like the grass

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Speaker 2: is green, are where you water it? So it can

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Speaker 2: feel like the grass is green and every other job

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Speaker 2: and every other job's great. That might not be the case,

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Speaker 2: and you want to find out what those jobs might

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Speaker 2: be like. So gather the information and then once you

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Speaker 2: have those inputs, you can put yourself in a better

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Speaker 2: position to make a career.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so maybe you've written the list Sophie suggests, and

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Speaker 3: there's a clear common denominator. I'm talking about the dreaded

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Speaker 3: B word burnout. What do you do to fix that

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Speaker 3: and hopefully make your job a little easier again. Shuktika

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Speaker 3: Bose is a clinical psychologist and she thinks burnout could

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Speaker 3: be the cause of us seeking a dumb job. Shuktika,

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Speaker 3: What do you make of the term dumb job and

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Speaker 3: what does it actually represent?

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Speaker 5: The term dumb job, I almost feel is a little

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Speaker 5: bit misleading because it kind of implies that people are

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Speaker 5: actively choosing a job that is essentially beneath them.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I would actually say it's a rgic decision

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Speaker 1: that they're making in order to preserve their mental and

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Speaker 1: their physical well being, And I think it's essentially about

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Speaker 1: escaping the stress and the complexity of what we would

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Speaker 1: consider to be quite high pressure careers. Really, these jobs

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Speaker 1: that people are.

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Speaker 6: At, we're choosing to move into, are for their sense

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Speaker 6: of simplicity, a clearer structure, and this ability to draw

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Speaker 6: a very distinct line between their work life and the

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Speaker 6: other aspects of their life.

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Speaker 3: So when people are seeking this simpler life, do you

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Speaker 3: think it comes from the fact that they've fallen out

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Speaker 3: of love with the job that they think they wanted

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Speaker 3: or are we starting to deal with burnout here?

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Speaker 1: A lot of the work I do is around values

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Speaker 1: and identity based work, and I think that it can

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Speaker 1: be a combination of both. I think it's so important

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Speaker 1: that everyone takes the time to reflect on the work

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Speaker 1: that they do and assess what's really driving the exhaustion

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Speaker 1: that they have. Could it be that it's the nature

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Speaker 1: of the work, the environment that they're in, or unrealistic expectations,

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Speaker 1: or is it that upon doing some of that deeper

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Speaker 1: level work, they realize that what's important to their life

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Speaker 1: now isn't actually an alignment with the work that they're doing.

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Speaker 1: And if it's the latter, then most definitely they want

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Speaker 1: to be considering some small or bigger shifts to leave

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Speaker 1: more in alignment with what's important to them.

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Speaker 3: If people are listening and they think, well, I'm quite tired,

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Speaker 3: maybe I'm burnt out. Is there a difference between tired

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Speaker 3: and exhausted or having a bad week and being burnt out?

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Speaker 3: And how long does it take for you to reach

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Speaker 3: that official diagnosis of being burnt out?

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Speaker 1: When we think it's burnout, it's almost like you want

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Speaker 1: to imagine this balloon that sort of deflates over time.

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Speaker 1: So burnout starts small, and we have those signs like

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Speaker 1: the irritability and a general sense of detachment is when

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Speaker 1: things can become quite problematic. So I would say that

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Speaker 1: there is a difference between a sense of exhaustion and

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Speaker 1: when for example, we obtain some rest for ourselves and

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Speaker 1: we're still not recharging that battery. That is when we

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Speaker 1: know that there are some other stuff going on within

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Speaker 1: the body and the mind that need to be addressed

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Speaker 1: that may be connected to burnout.

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Speaker 3: How long is the recovery process for burnout?

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Speaker 4: I think when it.

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Speaker 1: Comes to recovery, there are so many different factors. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot more of the systemic issues that we

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Speaker 1: have to address alongside work pressures. We have so many

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Speaker 1: other pressures in our lives, and if we aren't able

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Speaker 1: to make some changes long term to multiple aspects of

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Speaker 1: our life, we will notice some of those feelings of

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Speaker 1: exhaustion creeping right back in.

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Speaker 3: For us, if you aren't burnt out and say it's

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Speaker 3: from the job, can a holiday fix it? Or once

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Speaker 3: you've reached that point of full exhaustion, irritability burnout, is

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Speaker 3: it moving to a new job or a new position

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Speaker 3: within that job.

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Speaker 1: I love the conversation around holidays.

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Speaker 7: I'm a span of holidays that are more frequent and

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Speaker 7: in shorter times. So the research actually shows that it's

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Speaker 7: the anticipation of a holiday which is where the.

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Speaker 1: Dopamine kicks in. We actually enjoy so when it comes

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Speaker 1: to holidays, I'm a big fan of taking little maybe

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Speaker 1: staycations if we're able just to get away more frequently.

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Speaker 1: But when it comes to the second part of your

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Speaker 1: question around is a holiday enough, it's pretty clear that

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Speaker 1: when we go away and we're taking a holiday, it's

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Speaker 1: I'm getting away from the thing that's stressing me. And unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: what that means is I'm going to come right back

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Speaker 1: to the thing that's dressing me again. If we're not

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Speaker 1: making those systemic changes, we're walking right back into it.

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Speaker 1: We still need to be doing that, reassessing that, reevaluating

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Speaker 1: that self awareness of what's really important to me in

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Speaker 1: my life. What are the things I'm feeling in my body,

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Speaker 1: What is my body telling me? And how can you

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Speaker 1: listen and respond to what my body is telling me.

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Speaker 3: I'm just curious in your work, are there certain industries

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Speaker 3: that you've found when speaking to patients, that you've started

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Speaker 3: to notice a trend of certain industries and workplaces that

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Speaker 3: do have more burnout.

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Speaker 1: We think sort of the high performance type of careers,

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Speaker 1: but generally speaking, it the careers where we go into

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Speaker 1: it with so much passion and energy and drive, and

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Speaker 1: those are excellent things that we want going into a career,

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Speaker 1: and also those same types of careers can lead to

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Speaker 1: lack of boundaries, not knowing when you turn off. Because

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Speaker 1: I want to be there for the people that I'm helping,

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Speaker 1: I want to be making a difference, and so I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure that I'll necessarily say it is a specific

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Speaker 1: type of career or job that's leading people down that line,

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Speaker 1: But more so it's what do I want out of

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Speaker 1: this role? And if I have that overwhelming drive and

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Speaker 1: passion that I can't rain in, that's when it will

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Speaker 1: get out of hand.

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Speaker 3: What are some tips that people could do this weekend

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Speaker 3: just to help out the potential of burnout?

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Speaker 4: Amazing.

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Speaker 1: One question that will always ask my clients at the

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Speaker 1: end of a session is what's something you're going to

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Speaker 1: do now that's nice for you? And so it really

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Speaker 1: encourages people to stop and ask themselves what do I want.

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Speaker 4: To do as opposed to what do I have to do?

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Speaker 1: And so the things that I feel would be really

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Speaker 1: beneficial for people is supposed me to stop and actually

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Speaker 1: ask myself what's my body asking for right now?

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Speaker 8: And cutting aside some time to listen to what my

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Speaker 8: body is saying, having that moment of reflection is really

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Speaker 8: key restoring that balance through self care and recovery by

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Speaker 8: connecting to the mind and body through things like exercise, movement, meditation, mindfulness,

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Speaker 8: spending time in nature is absolutely incredible.

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Speaker 1: For grounding yourself and engaging in hobbies, things that we

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Speaker 1: really enjoy doing and we say, oh, I'll get to

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Speaker 1: it next week after xyz tasks are done. How can

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Speaker 1: I make this thing that I love a priority for me,

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Speaker 1: even if it's five or ten minutes. That is going

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Speaker 1: to tell your brain, Hey, I know I love this thing,

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Speaker 1: and I know that all of these other things are there,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to focus on this one thing.

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Speaker 4: That I love.

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Speaker 3: So maybe it's not the job, the office, the hours.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you're burnt out and that's why a dumb job

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Speaker 3: is looking very appealing. If you are struggling with burnout,

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Speaker 3: Schugtika says, you should put these small little routines into

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Speaker 3: your life. You can even start this weekend. Thanks for

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Speaker 3: taking some time to feed your mind with us today.

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Speaker 3: The Quiki is produced by me Grace Rufray and our

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Speaker 3: senior producer Taylor Strano, with audio production by Lou Hill