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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 1: I was a complete prisoner in this environment because I

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Speaker 1: had no choice on where we would go, and often

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Speaker 1: my father wouldn't even tell me where we were going

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Speaker 1: to sail to next.

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Speaker 3: So you're completely imprisoned in this.

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Speaker 1: World and you can't even step off the boat and

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Speaker 1: go to school or bring somebody up or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: From MoMA may you're listening to no filter. I'm mea

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Speaker 2: Friedman and when I was about seven, my parents decided

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Speaker 2: we'd go on a road trip around Australia. We're away

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Speaker 2: for about six weeks, but it felt like six years,

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Speaker 2: and I hated every single second of it. Here's a

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Speaker 2: hot tip. Most little kids don't have an appetite for adventure,

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Speaker 2: not the kind of advent that takes them away from

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Speaker 2: their friends and pets and grandparents.

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Speaker 4: Kids like routine, They like being at home.

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Speaker 2: When Susan Haywood was seven and her little brother was six,

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Speaker 2: they were told by their parents that they'd be leaving

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Speaker 2: the UK, leaving school, leaving their dog and their grandparents

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Speaker 2: to go and see around the world for three years.

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Speaker 2: Suzanne had a doubt about what that would be like,

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Speaker 2: but like so many little girls, she trusted her dad.

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Speaker 2: He was her hero. But as you're going to hear today,

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Speaker 2: there's a fine line between adventure and survival, between an

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Speaker 2: extended family holiday and well being held captive by your

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Speaker 2: parents for ten years.

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Speaker 4: Because what was supposed to be.

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Speaker 2: A three year journey turned into a decade long odyssey

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Speaker 2: where Suzanne was severely injured, hospitalized, put in a very

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Speaker 2: unsafe environment with strangers as a teenage girl, and ultimately

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Speaker 2: abandoned in a country where she knew nobody. This story

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Speaker 2: is kind of like a Greek myth or an action adventure,

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Speaker 2: complete with shipwrecks and desert islands. But for Suzanne, it

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Speaker 2: was her life and it's her story. And with such

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Speaker 2: a big story like this, I often think about where

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Speaker 2: I want to begin these conversations, But with her story,

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Speaker 2: I was curious to know where she actually begins. When

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Speaker 2: she tells other people about this incredible thing that happened

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Speaker 2: to her, what's the beginning for her?

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Speaker 1: So the beginning for me is the moment where my

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Speaker 1: father says, I want to sail around the world, and

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Speaker 1: you're coming with me.

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Speaker 3: It's going to be.

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Speaker 1: Three years because my whole life changed at that moment,

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Speaker 1: And so that is the beginning of the story. And

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Speaker 1: up until that point, I'm quite a normal little girl

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Speaker 1: living a normal life. I'd go to school, I've got friends,

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Speaker 1: everything is normal, and then it changes because of that

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Speaker 1: decision that he made.

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Speaker 2: That day was in nineteen seventy six. You were only seven,

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Speaker 2: Your brother John is six. You're eating your cereal and

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Speaker 2: your dad Gordon announced his plan over.

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Speaker 4: The breakfast table.

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Speaker 2: Had he always had a fascination with Captain Cook? What

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Speaker 2: exactly did he tell you all that his plan was?

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Speaker 1: So he had had a fascination with Captain Cook. My

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Speaker 1: maiden name is actually Cook, and he comes from a

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Speaker 1: similar part of the UK to Captain Cook. And for

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Speaker 1: many years I believe that we were related to him,

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Speaker 1: but I now understand we're not. But it was enough

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Speaker 1: of a connection for him to feel that fascination. And

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Speaker 1: he'd always loved sailing. He hadn't sailed very far. They'd

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Speaker 1: had various small boats, and they'd gone as far as

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Speaker 1: crossing the Channel. He didn't really know how to navigate

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Speaker 1: at that point, and anyway, as a six year old,

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Speaker 1: you don't really question these things. Okay, So my dad's

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Speaker 1: trying to sail around the world.

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Speaker 3: You know, he's a hero.

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Speaker 1: Hero worship my dad like a lot of little girls

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Speaker 1: do with their father. Okay, you know, we're going on

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Speaker 1: this adventure, and I was worried because I was leaving

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Speaker 1: behind all my friends, my dog, Rusty water spaniel, my grandparents.

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Speaker 1: I was very close, in particular to my Nana, my

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Speaker 1: father's mother. But we were going to be back in

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Speaker 1: three years and it was going to be a great adventure.

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Speaker 2: You didn't question, of course, you kind of don't even

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Speaker 2: get the opportunity to question things. Well, maybe kids do now,

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Speaker 2: but back in the seventies, we didn't get the chance

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Speaker 2: to question things when our parents told us their plans.

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Speaker 2: But how did your mother, Mary, and your brother John,

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Speaker 2: who was about the same agency, how did they react

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Speaker 2: to the proposition, particularly your mom.

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Speaker 1: So my mom was madly in love with my father

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Speaker 1: and really would go along with anything that he wanted

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Speaker 1: to do. They had one of these dynamics where, you know,

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Speaker 1: my father made all the big decisions and my mother

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Speaker 1: made all the little decisions, the day to day decisions,

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Speaker 1: but the thing was my mom hated, and I knew

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Speaker 1: that even as a little girl. My father would often

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Speaker 1: go saiving. My mother would not go with him. But

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Speaker 1: I think for my mother, the idea that he would

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Speaker 1: go sailing without her was inconceivable. And then if she

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Speaker 1: was going, of course us kids would go. My brother

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Speaker 1: I don't really remember expressing much review. He's a year

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Speaker 1: younger than me, so he was five at this point,

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Speaker 1: so he didn't really have much review, certainly not at

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Speaker 1: that point. But my mother was absolutely going to go.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember her.

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Speaker 3: Being enthusiastic about it.

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Speaker 1: This was my father's dream, not hers, but she was

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Speaker 1: absolutely part of it.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about your mom. Your relationship with her wasn't easy,

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Speaker 2: you write in your book. My father was a hero

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Speaker 2: to me, and it seemed to everyone else. My mother

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Speaker 2: was a glamorous, if somewhat unwilling and unmaternal accomplice speak

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Speaker 2: to me about unmaternal.

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Speaker 1: As a small child, I didn't really question how my

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Speaker 1: mother was.

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Speaker 3: She just was.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you just accept your mother as the person,

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Speaker 1: and she is. But as I got older, it became

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Speaker 1: increasingly apparent not only that she was not maternal. I mean,

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Speaker 1: at one point in the book, she leaves me overnight

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Speaker 1: at an orphanage, but also she has very clear favorites.

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Speaker 1: So my brother becomes very much like a golden child

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Speaker 1: on the boat, and I become the Cinderella type character

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Speaker 1: and talking to other children, particularly children who were taken

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Speaker 1: out of the norm into very physically adventurous circumstances. That

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Speaker 1: is a pattern which I'm hearing from other people as well,

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Speaker 1: because of course girls are less suited for that sort

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Speaker 1: of environment. And then you get into a dynamic where

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Speaker 1: because the boy is enjoying it more, they're the good child.

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Speaker 1: Because the girl is not enjoying it as much, and

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Speaker 1: often girls are craving friendships and normality, they're the bad child.

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Speaker 1: And that dynamic was one that my mother played into.

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Speaker 1: My mother was always somebody who had favorites people, She

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Speaker 1: liked people who flattered her. I now understand, at least

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Speaker 1: I've been told, she is quite a narcissistic person. So

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Speaker 1: if you flattered her and she liked what you were doing,

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Speaker 1: you were wonderful. If you didn't, she disliked you. So

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Speaker 1: this relationship I had with her went seriously downhill when

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Speaker 1: I became a teenager, and looking back, I now understand

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Speaker 1: I was probably in her eyes, competing for attention. You

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Speaker 1: have become a pretty teenager. I was academic, and I

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Speaker 1: think she just found me really hard to deal with

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Speaker 1: on the boat. But her response to that was to

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Speaker 1: be really quite unpleasant. And of course you're trapped in

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Speaker 1: a tiny boat and you can't go anywhere. As a

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Speaker 1: teenage girl, I couldn't go and be a friend. I

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Speaker 1: couldn't get off the boat. There was nothing I could.

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Speaker 2: You literally couldn't run away. You couldn't even slam a door.

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Speaker 2: And you go for a walk to the park. Can

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Speaker 2: you tell me your dad went and found this boat

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Speaker 2: with the Wavewalker, which is also the name of your

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Speaker 2: incredible book.

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Speaker 4: What did the boat look like like? What was it like?

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Speaker 4: The actual physicality of it on board?

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Speaker 1: So wave Walker was a very beautiful boat from the outside,

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Speaker 1: a very old fashioned looking boat with a raise that's

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Speaker 1: called a kind of poop neck up at the back.

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Speaker 1: She was a wooden boat, a schooner, which means the

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Speaker 1: mast at the front is smaller than the mass of

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Speaker 1: the back gaffrig, which means that the sail between the

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Speaker 1: two masts square. So she looked really old fashioned and

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Speaker 1: rather beautiful with a long bow sprit at the bow

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Speaker 1: or the front, so she was very graceful, but the

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Speaker 1: reality of what it was like to live on her

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Speaker 1: was quite different. She was a very narrow boat, so

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Speaker 1: down below you didn't have a lot of space, certainly

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Speaker 1: not a space to live on for many years, and

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Speaker 1: particularly because over time my father ran completely out of money.

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Speaker 1: We were never very wealthy, but we became very poor

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Speaker 1: over time, which is another thing that happens with long

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Speaker 1: term sailors, because of course you often don't have a

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Speaker 1: real source of income and it's very expensive to try

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Speaker 1: and just keep the boat going, so there was no

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Speaker 1: money for, you know, anything frivolous at all. I don't

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Speaker 1: remember having a new item of clothing as a child.

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Speaker 1: So he started taking paying crew on the boat six

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Speaker 1: seven a crew usually men on board and downstairs down below,

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Speaker 1: the space was very limited, so I was often sharing

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Speaker 1: a cabin with these kind of male crews. There was

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Speaker 1: only one working bathroom or head, very narrow kind of galley,

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Speaker 1: one table that sat kind of five people, but not

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Speaker 1: enough space for everybody to sit down, so quite constrained.

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Speaker 1: And then imagine being in that environment as a teenage girl.

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Speaker 1: Where you want, You want a degree of kind of privacy,

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Speaker 1: you know, and of.

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Speaker 3: Course you can't get off the boat.

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Speaker 1: So and this is this wonderful, really interesting thing for

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Speaker 1: me about the contrast between the parents' dream. My father

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Speaker 1: had the dream of standing around the world, and for

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Speaker 1: heim it was freedom and independence. And you know, if

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Speaker 1: they fell out with somebody, which they often did, they

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Speaker 1: would pull up the anchor and sail to somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: But for me, I was a complete prisoner in this

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Speaker 1: environment because I had no choice on where we would go,

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Speaker 1: and often my father wouldn't even tell me where we

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Speaker 1: were going to sail to next. So you're completely imprisoned

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Speaker 1: in this world, and you can't even step off the

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Speaker 1: boat and go to school or bring somebody up or

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Speaker 1: anything like that.

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Speaker 2: After this short break, what was supposed to be a

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Speaker 2: three year voyage beginning when Susann was seven, drags out

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Speaker 2: for years and years, and she becomes a young woman

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Speaker 2: on the yacht, which brings a whole new set of

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Speaker 2: challenges and dangers.

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Speaker 4: Stay with us.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about school, because I imagine when he sold it

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Speaker 2: to you, the prospect of not going.

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Speaker 4: To school at first for a kid.

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Speaker 2: Is kind of great, But what did you do about

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Speaker 2: lessons and about school?

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Speaker 4: Did you do it? By correspondence?

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Speaker 1: So the initial premise was that my mother was going

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Speaker 1: to teach us. And my mother was a trained primary

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Speaker 1: school teacher, so she had various worksheets that she was

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Speaker 1: going to use.

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Speaker 3: And I know you say.

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Speaker 1: That the kind of promise for most kids would be

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Speaker 1: quite exciting not going school, but actually I was taken

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Speaker 1: out of school when I was seven, and I was

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Speaker 1: quite an academic child, and I enjoyed school anyway. My

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Speaker 1: mother did do a few worksheets, particularly in the first

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Speaker 1: year or so, but it was very haphazard because she

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Speaker 1: wouldn't do any at sea because she got seasick. She

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Speaker 1: didn't really like doing them in port because then she'd

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Speaker 1: want to go ashore. So every so often it would happen,

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Speaker 1: but very very sporadic, and then within the first couple

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Speaker 1: of years it stopped altogether. And by the time we

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Speaker 1: got to Hawaii, by which point we've been at sea

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Speaker 1: for four years, she's long given up any sort of education.

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Speaker 1: And I'm incredibly bored, and I just to learn, So

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to read every book I can find. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to talk to everybody I can kind of talk to.

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Speaker 1: But I'm just desperate to learn, both for the sake

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Speaker 1: of learning but also for friendships. I'm really really missing friends.

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Speaker 1: And people say to me, but you know what was

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Speaker 1: the problem? You know, you had the University of Life,

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Speaker 1: to which I say, well, the University of Life is great,

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Speaker 1: but I wanted to be a scientist. And how do

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Speaker 1: you learn maths and physics and chemistry when you're sitting

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Speaker 1: on a boat sailing around the world.

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Speaker 2: You just said four years. I mean originally your dad

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Speaker 2: had said three years. What was the intention to like

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Speaker 2: sail for what a few weeks at a time and

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Speaker 2: then go into port and.

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Speaker 4: Like live in different cities.

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Speaker 2: Or to just be spending the whole time on the ocean,

243
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Speaker 2: Like what was the plan? And also then how did

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Speaker 2: it turn out?

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00:13:02,885 --> 00:13:05,565
Speaker 1: Well, the plan was a slightly crazy plan. So he

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Speaker 1: had this idea of recreating Captain Cook's third voyde around

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Speaker 1: the world. And the reason why he did that, I

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Speaker 1: now believe, is because that was a way of raising

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Speaker 1: money to do the voyage, because it felt like, you know,

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Speaker 1: something that people would donate money too.

251
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Speaker 4: What did he do for a job? Your dad before

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Speaker 4: all of.

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Speaker 1: This so he first of all trained as a teacher himself,

254
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Speaker 1: though he hated teaching and only did it for a

255
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Speaker 1: few weeks, and then he ran various things. I remember

256
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Speaker 1: he kind of ran a bowling alley at one point,

257
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Speaker 1: and at the point at which we sold everything to

258
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Speaker 1: buy the boat, he was running Warwick Castle in the UK,

259
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Speaker 1: which is an old castle. So he was always an entrepreneur,

260
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Speaker 1: not a very wealthy entrepreneur, but he was always an entrepreneur.

261
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Speaker 1: He always had ideas, so that's what he was doing.

262
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Speaker 1: And then he had this big idea that he was

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Speaker 1: going to sell around the world and then he made

264
00:13:59,005 --> 00:14:02,325
Speaker 1: it the Byzentinary Voyage. So he was able to raise

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Speaker 1: some sponsorship for that, which was good because we didn't

266
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Speaker 1: have a huge amount of money. So that was the idea.

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Speaker 1: Now the problem we're standing around the world following Captain

268
00:14:10,885 --> 00:14:14,085
Speaker 1: Cook's third voyage is Captain Cook took a very dangerous

269
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Speaker 1: route on his third voyage. So whereas most people who

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Speaker 1: sail around the world, they do so standing east to

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Speaker 1: west around the equator, So you go from the UK,

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Speaker 1: if you're starting from the UK, across the North Atlantic,

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Speaker 1: through the Panama Canal down through the Pacific and so on.

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Speaker 3: We weren't going that way.

275
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Speaker 1: We were going the other way, which basically you don't

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Speaker 1: do unless you're a very extreme sailor. We went down

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Speaker 1: to South America and we sailed from west to east.

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Speaker 1: That meant that we went across the Southern Atlantic Ocean,

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Speaker 1: which is a very dangerous ocean, the wrong way.

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Speaker 3: I e.

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Speaker 1: Into the winds. And then we went even worse across

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Speaker 1: the Southern Indian Ocean. And these trips, by the way,

283
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Speaker 1: you're at sea four ten twelve weeks, weeks, weeks, yes,

284
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Speaker 1: and there's a little kid. You're trapped down below because

285
00:15:06,285 --> 00:15:08,365
Speaker 1: you can't come up on deck because it's too dangerous.

286
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Speaker 1: And in the Southern Indian Ocean we hit a terrible,

287
00:15:12,125 --> 00:15:15,725
Speaker 1: terrible storm. The ways became bigger and bigger, and eventually,

288
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Speaker 1: and I talk about it in the book, were very

289
00:15:18,205 --> 00:15:21,885
Speaker 1: badly shipwrecked. The boat or the sinks, and I am

290
00:15:21,965 --> 00:15:24,925
Speaker 1: quite badly hurt because I'm flung against the ceiling of

291
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Speaker 1: the cabin and against the wall, and I fracture my

292
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Speaker 1: skull and break my nose. And we end up on

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Speaker 1: a tiny little atoll island in the middle of the

294
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Speaker 1: Indian Ocean called ourl Amsterdam where I have seven head

295
00:15:37,405 --> 00:15:40,205
Speaker 1: operations without an esthetic, sous.

296
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Speaker 4: That is a lot. And you're how old at this age?

297
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Speaker 1: So I'm still seven, you're still seventh.

298
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Speaker 4: This was in year one of the great adventure.

299
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Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the great adventure. But that's why the

300
00:15:53,565 --> 00:15:56,325
Speaker 1: end of the voyage what is a major you know?

301
00:15:56,405 --> 00:15:58,325
Speaker 1: The turning point of the voyage was supposed to be

302
00:15:58,405 --> 00:16:02,765
Speaker 1: Hawaiian because Hawaiian was where Captain Cook was killed on

303
00:16:02,845 --> 00:16:05,165
Speaker 1: his third voyage, at which point we were supposed to

304
00:16:05,205 --> 00:16:08,885
Speaker 1: then turn around and come back through the Panama Canal

305
00:16:09,125 --> 00:16:11,165
Speaker 1: to the UK, and that was the end of the voat.

306
00:16:11,365 --> 00:16:13,805
Speaker 1: But by the time we got to Hawaii, mother, than

307
00:16:13,845 --> 00:16:17,045
Speaker 1: being three years in, we were four years in because

308
00:16:17,045 --> 00:16:18,805
Speaker 1: of the shipwreck. It took the best part of a

309
00:16:18,925 --> 00:16:22,485
Speaker 1: year to repair the boat in Fremantle. We were in Fremantle.

310
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Speaker 1: I went briefly to school in Fremantle, which I remember

311
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Speaker 1: really loving.

312
00:16:26,245 --> 00:16:27,245
Speaker 4: What school did you go to?

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00:16:27,925 --> 00:16:29,845
Speaker 1: I can't remember the school. It was a little local

314
00:16:29,885 --> 00:16:33,645
Speaker 1: school near the boatyard in Fremantle, and I remember there

315
00:16:33,645 --> 00:16:37,285
Speaker 1: were these very nice twin boys who used to compete

316
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Speaker 1: over who would carry my school bag back to the

317
00:16:39,405 --> 00:16:40,485
Speaker 1: boatyard every day.

318
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Speaker 3: That was very sweet.

319
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Speaker 4: You must have loved playing with other kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was wonderful because we were going to school.

321
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Speaker 1: We were at one level having a somewhat normal life.

322
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Speaker 1: At another level, we weren't because the boat was very

323
00:16:54,565 --> 00:16:58,085
Speaker 1: badly damaged and in that shipwreck we lost all our toys.

324
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Speaker 1: So we had no toys. We had virtually no money

325
00:17:02,165 --> 00:17:05,885
Speaker 1: because everything was being spent that we had on repairing

326
00:17:05,925 --> 00:17:09,245
Speaker 1: this boat. We were living on this boat which was

327
00:17:09,605 --> 00:17:14,285
Speaker 1: half wrecked, in this boatyard. But when I left the

328
00:17:14,325 --> 00:17:17,005
Speaker 1: boatyard and I put my little kind of saturl on

329
00:17:17,085 --> 00:17:19,365
Speaker 1: and went to school, I could pretend to be normal

330
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Speaker 1: and it was great. I remember kind of practicing a

331
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Speaker 1: musical instrument, the tambourine, I seem to remember for the

332
00:17:25,605 --> 00:17:29,165
Speaker 1: school band. I remember, for a little while, our life

333
00:17:29,245 --> 00:17:32,165
Speaker 1: is normal, And then my father said, now we're saving again,

334
00:17:32,645 --> 00:17:33,525
Speaker 1: and we set off.

335
00:17:33,685 --> 00:17:36,925
Speaker 4: You must have been devastated. What was a typical day

336
00:17:36,965 --> 00:17:40,005
Speaker 4: in the life for you, like as a child on the.

337
00:17:39,965 --> 00:17:44,085
Speaker 1: Boat, Well, days were very governed by the weather. So

338
00:17:44,165 --> 00:17:47,285
Speaker 1: when we set sail from Fremantle, we were sailing across

339
00:17:47,325 --> 00:17:50,805
Speaker 1: the Great Australian Bite to Melbourne. And actually that's a

340
00:17:50,845 --> 00:17:54,205
Speaker 1: pretty rough piece of sea as well, so you will

341
00:17:54,405 --> 00:17:57,365
Speaker 1: have some days where you're completely becalmed with no wind,

342
00:17:57,965 --> 00:18:00,405
Speaker 1: in which case I would get up in the morning,

343
00:18:01,005 --> 00:18:03,765
Speaker 1: you know, find something for breakfast. We often didn't have

344
00:18:04,045 --> 00:18:08,485
Speaker 1: very organized meals because everyone was doing watches. All the

345
00:18:08,525 --> 00:18:11,285
Speaker 1: adults were doing watches. So it's not that you would

346
00:18:11,325 --> 00:18:13,285
Speaker 1: get up in the morning and somebody would be there,

347
00:18:13,365 --> 00:18:16,325
Speaker 1: because you'd have one or two adults on watch and

348
00:18:16,365 --> 00:18:17,125
Speaker 1: everybody else.

349
00:18:16,965 --> 00:18:19,965
Speaker 3: Would be asleep. But you would find yourself some breakfast.

350
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Speaker 1: I'd go up if it was calm enough, I could

351
00:18:22,085 --> 00:18:25,525
Speaker 1: go up and sit in the cockpit with whoever was

352
00:18:25,605 --> 00:18:28,525
Speaker 1: on watch, and I could talk to them, and then

353
00:18:28,605 --> 00:18:30,925
Speaker 1: I would go down and spend the rest of the

354
00:18:31,005 --> 00:18:32,485
Speaker 1: day trying to entertain myself.

355
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Speaker 3: You know. I would have a few books, I would draw, I.

356
00:18:36,485 --> 00:18:39,205
Speaker 1: Would try to find things to do. But we didn't

357
00:18:39,205 --> 00:18:43,805
Speaker 1: have any organized schooling, and we had very limited toys

358
00:18:43,845 --> 00:18:46,125
Speaker 1: on board. The one thing I will say is is

359
00:18:46,205 --> 00:18:50,085
Speaker 1: kids aren't endlessly inventive. So my younger brother and I

360
00:18:50,125 --> 00:18:52,885
Speaker 1: would invent a lot of games, and I would also

361
00:18:52,925 --> 00:18:55,325
Speaker 1: in ment a lot of games. I would play by myself.

362
00:18:55,365 --> 00:18:58,245
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember using we had a chess set

363
00:18:58,285 --> 00:18:59,725
Speaker 1: on board. It was one of the few things that

364
00:18:59,765 --> 00:19:03,485
Speaker 1: we had, and I remember turning that into an entire kingdom,

365
00:19:03,725 --> 00:19:07,405
Speaker 1: you know. But looking back, and particularly now as a parent,

366
00:19:07,485 --> 00:19:09,805
Speaker 1: and I'm a parent of three children myself, it's a

367
00:19:09,965 --> 00:19:13,565
Speaker 1: very deprived world forcing your to I mean, it's almost

368
00:19:13,605 --> 00:19:16,045
Speaker 1: like if my parents have kind of locked me in

369
00:19:16,125 --> 00:19:19,765
Speaker 1: a flat for a decade, we would all say that's

370
00:19:19,845 --> 00:19:22,485
Speaker 1: kind of terrible. But actually being stuck at sea as

371
00:19:22,485 --> 00:19:26,485
Speaker 1: a child, particularly a small child, you're down below in

372
00:19:26,525 --> 00:19:30,005
Speaker 1: a very limited space with very few things to do.

373
00:19:30,085 --> 00:19:33,005
Speaker 2: Like in a cell, because like kids need to run

374
00:19:33,165 --> 00:19:36,885
Speaker 2: and jump and climb, how did you even You couldn't

375
00:19:36,885 --> 00:19:38,285
Speaker 2: even move much.

376
00:19:38,805 --> 00:19:40,805
Speaker 1: So if it was calm, you could go on deck,

377
00:19:41,005 --> 00:19:45,125
Speaker 1: but there's limited deck space. You certainly can't run around

378
00:19:45,205 --> 00:19:47,885
Speaker 1: very much. My brother and I had a game where

379
00:19:47,885 --> 00:19:49,445
Speaker 1: we would try to kind of get from one end

380
00:19:49,445 --> 00:19:51,805
Speaker 1: of the boat to the other without touching the floor.

381
00:19:52,005 --> 00:19:52,485
Speaker 3: I remember.

382
00:19:52,845 --> 00:19:56,445
Speaker 1: But you can't swim, and unless you're import you can't

383
00:19:56,605 --> 00:19:58,925
Speaker 1: go short, so you can't play any sort of ball

384
00:19:59,005 --> 00:20:03,365
Speaker 1: games or anything like that. So, yes, very limited for

385
00:20:03,565 --> 00:20:04,845
Speaker 1: prolonged periods of time.

386
00:20:05,005 --> 00:20:07,165
Speaker 4: Where was your mum? What would she do on the

387
00:20:07,165 --> 00:20:08,165
Speaker 4: biat so my.

388
00:20:08,205 --> 00:20:12,885
Speaker 1: Mum would do watches with everybody else. She got very

389
00:20:12,965 --> 00:20:15,845
Speaker 1: badly seasick. So basically for the first three days, every

390
00:20:15,885 --> 00:20:18,765
Speaker 1: time we left port, she would retreat to her bunk

391
00:20:19,005 --> 00:20:21,285
Speaker 1: in the aft cabin at the back of the boat,

392
00:20:21,325 --> 00:20:23,285
Speaker 1: and she was not to be disturbed. So for the

393
00:20:23,285 --> 00:20:25,445
Speaker 1: first three days you always had to make do once

394
00:20:25,485 --> 00:20:28,285
Speaker 1: you left port, and then she would appear and she

395
00:20:28,445 --> 00:20:33,165
Speaker 1: would cook food. I mean, food on board was quite basic,

396
00:20:33,485 --> 00:20:35,245
Speaker 1: you know, because you had to rely a lot on

397
00:20:35,325 --> 00:20:37,165
Speaker 1: kind of canned and powdered food.

398
00:20:37,565 --> 00:20:39,605
Speaker 4: What would you eat? What were meals like.

399
00:20:40,085 --> 00:20:42,885
Speaker 1: Well, quite a lot of corned beef, quite a lot

400
00:20:42,925 --> 00:20:47,285
Speaker 1: of spam. I don't really recommend. When my father had

401
00:20:47,325 --> 00:20:50,045
Speaker 1: to cook when my mother was ill, his kind of

402
00:20:50,085 --> 00:20:53,605
Speaker 1: go to meal was corned beef and powdered mashed potatoes,

403
00:20:54,085 --> 00:20:58,285
Speaker 1: which actually I remember powdered mash potatoes being remarkably good. Actually,

404
00:20:58,365 --> 00:20:59,885
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I would eat them now, but they

405
00:20:59,925 --> 00:21:03,205
Speaker 1: were good. Later on, when we got into the Pacific,

406
00:21:03,405 --> 00:21:06,125
Speaker 1: we had a wider range of food because we were

407
00:21:06,245 --> 00:21:09,365
Speaker 1: able when we got to an island to trade and

408
00:21:09,445 --> 00:21:13,605
Speaker 1: get bananas or mangoes or whatever. But certainly for those

409
00:21:13,605 --> 00:21:17,205
Speaker 1: first few years. The food was very limited and we

410
00:21:17,205 --> 00:21:19,485
Speaker 1: weren't really able to catch fitsch. I mean, you can't

411
00:21:19,525 --> 00:21:23,405
Speaker 1: really fish in the Southern Indian Ocean again. Kind of

412
00:21:23,445 --> 00:21:26,045
Speaker 1: later on, when we were in the Pacific, we would

413
00:21:26,045 --> 00:21:28,245
Speaker 1: trail lines over the back of the boat, and it

414
00:21:28,365 --> 00:21:31,005
Speaker 1: was very sporadic. But suddenly you would find that you

415
00:21:31,365 --> 00:21:34,165
Speaker 1: caught a maimi or something and you would have a fish.

416
00:21:34,285 --> 00:21:35,645
Speaker 1: But the diet was not.

417
00:21:35,645 --> 00:21:38,045
Speaker 4: Great, not a lot of fresh fruit and vegetables.

418
00:21:38,565 --> 00:21:41,165
Speaker 1: No, certainly not for the first few years. It got

419
00:21:41,165 --> 00:21:43,605
Speaker 1: better once we were in the South Pacific, and then

420
00:21:43,685 --> 00:21:46,485
Speaker 1: on the stormy day you were even more restricted because

421
00:21:46,525 --> 00:21:48,845
Speaker 1: basically you weren't allowed to come up on deck.

422
00:21:49,165 --> 00:21:51,485
Speaker 2: I can't get past the bit where you say your

423
00:21:51,565 --> 00:21:55,525
Speaker 2: mum got seasick and she didn't like sailing, and yet

424
00:21:55,885 --> 00:21:59,445
Speaker 2: you were on this indefinite journey to Hell. I would

425
00:21:59,445 --> 00:22:01,885
Speaker 2: have thought from her point of view, I can understand

426
00:22:01,925 --> 00:22:05,485
Speaker 2: why you wouldn't have had any say. But what made

427
00:22:05,525 --> 00:22:07,845
Speaker 2: her not pull the pin or even do it in

428
00:22:07,845 --> 00:22:08,405
Speaker 2: the first place?

429
00:22:08,485 --> 00:22:11,125
Speaker 4: Was she just so in your father's thrall, and did

430
00:22:11,165 --> 00:22:13,925
Speaker 4: he just hold all the power so she didn't have

431
00:22:14,005 --> 00:22:14,725
Speaker 4: a voice.

432
00:22:15,165 --> 00:22:17,565
Speaker 1: So she certainly had a voice but I think my

433
00:22:17,645 --> 00:22:22,285
Speaker 1: mother's world rotated around my father and always did, and

434
00:22:22,805 --> 00:22:25,085
Speaker 1: she knew this was his dream. He was going to

435
00:22:25,125 --> 00:22:28,205
Speaker 1: do it whether or not she went with him, and

436
00:22:28,885 --> 00:22:30,845
Speaker 1: he was the center of her world, so she was

437
00:22:30,925 --> 00:22:34,645
Speaker 1: going to go. Unfortunately, because she didn't like sailing. That

438
00:22:34,725 --> 00:22:37,365
Speaker 1: meant that she was often quite unhappy on the boat.

439
00:22:38,125 --> 00:22:40,325
Speaker 1: Later on, when we got to the Pacific and the

440
00:22:40,365 --> 00:22:44,085
Speaker 1: sailing was much easier, I think she enjoyed it more.

441
00:22:44,525 --> 00:22:46,125
Speaker 1: And of course she didn't have to deal with the

442
00:22:46,205 --> 00:22:49,085
Speaker 1: isolation because she was an adult, and obviously she was

443
00:22:49,125 --> 00:22:53,125
Speaker 1: with my father. We were taking adult crew on the boat,

444
00:22:53,245 --> 00:22:55,885
Speaker 1: so she had those, you know, those people to kind

445
00:22:55,885 --> 00:22:58,485
Speaker 1: of talk to, although she often fell out with them,

446
00:22:58,845 --> 00:23:01,085
Speaker 1: but she found that part of the sailing. Once we

447
00:23:01,205 --> 00:23:04,845
Speaker 1: got there, she enjoyed it more and she just didn't

448
00:23:04,845 --> 00:23:07,725
Speaker 1: seem to worry about the fact that she had two

449
00:23:07,765 --> 00:23:10,805
Speaker 1: little kids with her who were really getting an education,

450
00:23:11,605 --> 00:23:13,685
Speaker 1: weren't really able to have friendships.

451
00:23:15,205 --> 00:23:17,965
Speaker 2: More of my conversation with Susanne Haywood after this break.

452
00:23:20,445 --> 00:23:25,045
Speaker 2: How do you go through puberty on a boat, sharing,

453
00:23:25,885 --> 00:23:30,205
Speaker 2: you know, a tiny cabin, bunk beds with grown men?

454
00:23:31,365 --> 00:23:32,205
Speaker 4: How does that go?

455
00:23:33,205 --> 00:23:36,645
Speaker 1: It's very difficult. It's really really difficult, and I learned

456
00:23:36,885 --> 00:23:40,365
Speaker 1: I had to kind of look after myself because my parents.

457
00:23:40,325 --> 00:23:42,365
Speaker 3: Just weren't really very interested.

458
00:23:42,725 --> 00:23:44,685
Speaker 1: So I kept to myself, and people see in the

459
00:23:44,725 --> 00:23:47,845
Speaker 1: book what I effectively do is I just become very

460
00:23:48,085 --> 00:23:51,485
Speaker 1: withdrawn into myself and into my head. I have to

461
00:23:51,525 --> 00:23:54,405
Speaker 1: be very careful what I do, so I very rarely

462
00:23:54,445 --> 00:23:56,685
Speaker 1: go ashore on my own, because I realize if you

463
00:23:56,765 --> 00:23:59,605
Speaker 1: go ashore on your own as a teenage girl, you

464
00:23:59,645 --> 00:24:02,405
Speaker 1: get harassed quite a lot, or certainly you did then,

465
00:24:02,845 --> 00:24:05,205
Speaker 1: so I have to be very careful about that. I

466
00:24:05,325 --> 00:24:07,805
Speaker 1: keep to myself on the boat quite a lot. This

467
00:24:07,965 --> 00:24:10,485
Speaker 1: is partly because my relationship my mother is such that

468
00:24:10,605 --> 00:24:13,085
Speaker 1: she will kind of bully me quite a lot if

469
00:24:13,165 --> 00:24:16,765
Speaker 1: I'm visible at all. So I keep very quiet, and

470
00:24:16,845 --> 00:24:20,605
Speaker 1: I write a lot. I have some pen pals, kids

471
00:24:20,685 --> 00:24:23,645
Speaker 1: I've met along the way, and I write letters to them.

472
00:24:24,165 --> 00:24:27,925
Speaker 1: I write my diary. One way or another, you find

473
00:24:27,965 --> 00:24:31,045
Speaker 1: a way to survive. I'm desperately by this point trying

474
00:24:31,085 --> 00:24:34,445
Speaker 1: to study and teach myself as a way of keeping

475
00:24:34,605 --> 00:24:38,965
Speaker 1: because it becomes very clear, particularly after a few years,

476
00:24:38,965 --> 00:24:41,085
Speaker 1: that the reason why my parents want me to be

477
00:24:41,125 --> 00:24:43,485
Speaker 1: on board is because they're using me to work on

478
00:24:43,525 --> 00:24:46,925
Speaker 1: the boat, to cook and clean, and that's they.

479
00:24:46,765 --> 00:24:47,725
Speaker 3: Don't want me to leave.

480
00:24:47,845 --> 00:24:49,565
Speaker 1: They don't want to leave me with somebody to go

481
00:24:49,605 --> 00:24:52,925
Speaker 1: to school because I'm actually useful on the boat. So

482
00:24:53,125 --> 00:24:55,725
Speaker 1: I know I've got to escape because otherwise this voyage

483
00:24:55,765 --> 00:24:58,125
Speaker 1: could go on forever. You know, we've gone way past

484
00:24:58,165 --> 00:25:01,285
Speaker 1: four years. You know, we end up five, six, seven,

485
00:25:01,445 --> 00:25:03,605
Speaker 1: eight years, were still on this boat.

486
00:25:03,765 --> 00:25:08,645
Speaker 2: And did you say, hey, Dad, mum, when is this

487
00:25:08,765 --> 00:25:10,845
Speaker 2: going to end? I mean, I know, even on a

488
00:25:10,845 --> 00:25:14,085
Speaker 2: long car trip, my kids are like, are.

489
00:25:13,965 --> 00:25:15,325
Speaker 4: We there yet? Are we there yet?

490
00:25:15,365 --> 00:25:15,805
Speaker 2: Are we there?

491
00:25:15,845 --> 00:25:18,325
Speaker 4: Hit? I can't like, did you just stop asking?

492
00:25:19,165 --> 00:25:21,165
Speaker 1: So I did ask, and I kind of begged my

493
00:25:21,245 --> 00:25:23,645
Speaker 1: father to kind of send me away to school or

494
00:25:23,725 --> 00:25:25,565
Speaker 1: to let me get off the boat. But my father

495
00:25:25,805 --> 00:25:30,485
Speaker 1: was somebody is somebody who will not accept somebody challenging

496
00:25:30,485 --> 00:25:34,965
Speaker 1: his authority. You know, he was a very physically aggressive man.

497
00:25:35,565 --> 00:25:38,165
Speaker 1: He never hit me, but I saw him hit many

498
00:25:38,325 --> 00:25:41,405
Speaker 1: other people. And I was quite I mean, I love

499
00:25:41,485 --> 00:25:45,165
Speaker 1: my father and I hero worshiped him as a child,

500
00:25:45,445 --> 00:25:47,445
Speaker 1: but I was also quite frightened of him. You can

501
00:25:47,525 --> 00:25:50,885
Speaker 1: hold both of those views at the same time, and

502
00:25:51,165 --> 00:25:53,805
Speaker 1: on the occasions where I did challenge him, he became

503
00:25:53,965 --> 00:25:57,325
Speaker 1: very aggressive and would kind of swear at me. You know,

504
00:25:57,405 --> 00:25:59,685
Speaker 1: don't you you know, effing kind of you know it

505
00:25:59,725 --> 00:26:02,245
Speaker 1: is not your you know you're the child. You're on

506
00:26:02,285 --> 00:26:05,925
Speaker 1: the boat, you know you do this. There was no

507
00:26:05,925 --> 00:26:09,445
Speaker 1: no debate whatsoever, and you knew that if you push that,

508
00:26:10,045 --> 00:26:13,205
Speaker 1: you didn't know what would happen, you know. I mean

509
00:26:13,285 --> 00:26:16,005
Speaker 1: at one point he left two members of crew on

510
00:26:16,045 --> 00:26:19,445
Speaker 1: an island and sailed away. He once put me on

511
00:26:19,525 --> 00:26:22,165
Speaker 1: shore and you know, refused to let me come back

512
00:26:22,205 --> 00:26:23,725
Speaker 1: on the boat for a day. I remember sitting on

513
00:26:23,725 --> 00:26:25,565
Speaker 1: the end of the jetty and I'm a teenage girl,

514
00:26:25,805 --> 00:26:28,245
Speaker 1: and I'm quite a pretty teenage girl who gets quite

515
00:26:28,285 --> 00:26:29,845
Speaker 1: harassed if you're.

516
00:26:29,685 --> 00:26:30,245
Speaker 3: On your own.

517
00:26:30,445 --> 00:26:32,045
Speaker 1: And I remember sitting at the end of the jetty

518
00:26:32,045 --> 00:26:34,245
Speaker 1: because it felt like the safest place to be. So

519
00:26:34,405 --> 00:26:37,645
Speaker 1: he was not a man that you could force. And then,

520
00:26:37,685 --> 00:26:40,525
Speaker 1: of course I had no passport of my own until

521
00:26:40,565 --> 00:26:43,005
Speaker 1: I was sixteen. I didn't have any money.

522
00:26:43,805 --> 00:26:44,245
Speaker 3: I had no.

523
00:26:44,285 --> 00:26:47,925
Speaker 1: Contact with any of my relatives back in UK because

524
00:26:47,925 --> 00:26:50,325
Speaker 1: we left when I was so little. None of them

525
00:26:50,365 --> 00:26:52,605
Speaker 1: had about you come to see us, which I don't

526
00:26:52,605 --> 00:26:55,725
Speaker 1: blame them for but it meant I had no contact

527
00:26:55,925 --> 00:26:58,365
Speaker 1: back with any of them to come back and kind

528
00:26:58,365 --> 00:27:01,885
Speaker 1: of find anybody. So I just accepted I was trapped.

529
00:27:02,045 --> 00:27:05,805
Speaker 1: I was completely trapped. I think it's also very difficult,

530
00:27:06,205 --> 00:27:08,085
Speaker 1: and I've talked to kind of people about it, since

531
00:27:08,285 --> 00:27:10,885
Speaker 1: it's very difficult as a child to challenge.

532
00:27:10,525 --> 00:27:11,485
Speaker 3: Your own world.

533
00:27:11,765 --> 00:27:16,005
Speaker 1: I mean, you challenge and you accept that your parents

534
00:27:16,005 --> 00:27:18,045
Speaker 1: are not good parents to you. Where do you go

535
00:27:18,165 --> 00:27:20,405
Speaker 1: from there, particularly when you live on a boat and

536
00:27:20,445 --> 00:27:23,285
Speaker 1: there's nothing else in your world apart from that.

537
00:27:24,005 --> 00:27:27,685
Speaker 2: Yeah, you had nothing to compare it to, nor did

538
00:27:27,725 --> 00:27:29,805
Speaker 2: your brother. And it's interesting when you talk and in

539
00:27:29,845 --> 00:27:32,285
Speaker 2: the book, your experience was very different to your brother,

540
00:27:32,445 --> 00:27:34,765
Speaker 2: because there's not a sense if you're in this together

541
00:27:35,245 --> 00:27:40,045
Speaker 2: against your two crazy parents who've essentially kidnapped you, why

542
00:27:40,165 --> 00:27:40,565
Speaker 2: is that.

543
00:27:41,165 --> 00:27:44,045
Speaker 1: It's really interesting. So when we were little, we played

544
00:27:44,085 --> 00:27:47,325
Speaker 1: a lot together. I described how we used to make

545
00:27:47,405 --> 00:27:50,805
Speaker 1: up kingdoms and we were quite close. But what happened

546
00:27:50,885 --> 00:27:55,765
Speaker 1: was when we became teenagers. So eleven twelve thirteen, my

547
00:27:55,885 --> 00:27:59,405
Speaker 1: mother chose a favorite, and it was my brother, partly

548
00:27:59,445 --> 00:28:03,085
Speaker 1: because I suspect he didn't rebel like I did. You know,

549
00:28:03,125 --> 00:28:07,125
Speaker 1: he never questioned her. Even though I was cautious about

550
00:28:07,125 --> 00:28:09,365
Speaker 1: how much I challenged my parents, I did challenge, and

551
00:28:09,765 --> 00:28:11,805
Speaker 1: I was unhappy I would get off the boat. He

552
00:28:11,885 --> 00:28:15,525
Speaker 1: never did, to my kind of knowledge. He enjoyed being

553
00:28:15,565 --> 00:28:17,525
Speaker 1: on the boat more than I did. He enjoyed the

554
00:28:17,565 --> 00:28:22,605
Speaker 1: physicality of it. He was treated very differently by both

555
00:28:22,645 --> 00:28:25,765
Speaker 1: of my parents. So my father wanted my brother, because

556
00:28:25,765 --> 00:28:28,005
Speaker 1: he was his son, wanted him to learn how to sail.

557
00:28:28,165 --> 00:28:30,165
Speaker 1: So my brother was allowed to be on deck when

558
00:28:30,205 --> 00:28:32,965
Speaker 1: we were sailing. My father believed I should not be

559
00:28:33,005 --> 00:28:35,365
Speaker 1: on deck when we were sailing because I was a girl,

560
00:28:36,005 --> 00:28:39,205
Speaker 1: and in fact, only bought one set of child size

561
00:28:40,005 --> 00:28:43,525
Speaker 1: working life jackets, so I had an emergency life jacket,

562
00:28:43,565 --> 00:28:45,285
Speaker 1: but I didn't have a set that would enable me

563
00:28:45,325 --> 00:28:47,725
Speaker 1: to work on debt. He gave the only set that

564
00:28:47,765 --> 00:28:50,245
Speaker 1: he had to my brother and then said, you know,

565
00:28:50,325 --> 00:28:53,445
Speaker 1: you can't go on deck because you're a girl. Eventually

566
00:28:53,525 --> 00:28:55,925
Speaker 1: I rebelled against that and went on deck, even without

567
00:28:55,965 --> 00:28:58,605
Speaker 1: the kind of safety equipment, so my brother was able

568
00:28:58,645 --> 00:29:00,925
Speaker 1: to go on deck. You know, it wasn't expected to

569
00:29:00,925 --> 00:29:03,445
Speaker 1: do too many chores. I was expected to cook and

570
00:29:03,485 --> 00:29:06,405
Speaker 1: clean down below with my mother. I had this terrible

571
00:29:06,445 --> 00:29:10,365
Speaker 1: relationship with my mother and I. So we quickly learned,

572
00:29:10,685 --> 00:29:12,885
Speaker 1: you know, once I hit those teenage years, that if

573
00:29:12,965 --> 00:29:15,005
Speaker 1: my brother and I ever had a fight, I would

574
00:29:15,085 --> 00:29:17,885
Speaker 1: be punished and he wouldn't. So this is kind of

575
00:29:17,925 --> 00:29:21,045
Speaker 1: treating two children in such a different way. Meant that

576
00:29:21,125 --> 00:29:26,325
Speaker 1: we separated, and we very rarely rowed. We just separated.

577
00:29:26,405 --> 00:29:28,965
Speaker 1: I kept as far away as I could because I

578
00:29:29,045 --> 00:29:32,605
Speaker 1: knew that I would be punished, you know, and he

579
00:29:32,645 --> 00:29:34,365
Speaker 1: could do as I said. He could do no wrong

580
00:29:34,405 --> 00:29:36,725
Speaker 1: and I could do no right. And it's very sad

581
00:29:36,765 --> 00:29:39,925
Speaker 1: looking back, because I think if we had been treated

582
00:29:39,925 --> 00:29:43,005
Speaker 1: in a similar sort of way, we could together have

583
00:29:43,165 --> 00:29:45,925
Speaker 1: found a way to create a better life on board

584
00:29:45,925 --> 00:29:48,885
Speaker 1: that boat. But because we were treated so differently, we

585
00:29:48,885 --> 00:29:51,765
Speaker 1: were actually pushed apart. And to me as a child,

586
00:29:51,845 --> 00:29:54,645
Speaker 1: that felt much more like there was a triangle of

587
00:29:54,725 --> 00:29:56,925
Speaker 1: my mother, my father, and my brother and then there

588
00:29:57,005 --> 00:30:00,805
Speaker 1: was me. And it's interesting talking to a lot of

589
00:30:00,805 --> 00:30:03,765
Speaker 1: other people who've grown up in very different circumstances, that

590
00:30:03,885 --> 00:30:08,245
Speaker 1: dynamic is not certainly not unique, but it all played

591
00:30:08,285 --> 00:30:10,725
Speaker 1: out on this boat where you're the one who's the

592
00:30:10,805 --> 00:30:12,365
Speaker 1: kind of dislike child.

593
00:30:14,405 --> 00:30:16,045
Speaker 2: So I kind of thought that would be the end

594
00:30:16,525 --> 00:30:20,765
Speaker 2: of Suzanne's story because you know she'd grown up. Surely

595
00:30:20,965 --> 00:30:23,245
Speaker 2: she can get herself off the boat now she's sixteen.

596
00:30:23,805 --> 00:30:25,325
Speaker 2: But that's actually when things.

597
00:30:25,125 --> 00:30:26,805
Speaker 4: Took a really weird turn.

598
00:30:26,725 --> 00:30:30,845
Speaker 2: Because before she sort of drifted away from her brother,

599
00:30:31,565 --> 00:30:35,285
Speaker 2: something extraordinary happened. And here's a little sneak peek of

600
00:30:35,325 --> 00:30:36,605
Speaker 2: part two of this conversation.

601
00:30:37,925 --> 00:30:41,165
Speaker 1: That is the bleakest point of the whole story. I mean,

602
00:30:41,285 --> 00:30:44,405
Speaker 1: even bleaker than being shipwrecked in the Indian Ocean and

603
00:30:44,485 --> 00:30:49,125
Speaker 1: having all the head operations because we're effectively abandoned and

604
00:30:49,205 --> 00:30:52,685
Speaker 1: have nowhere to go to and my job, and this

605
00:30:52,725 --> 00:30:55,245
Speaker 1: has made very clear to me by my parents, is

606
00:30:55,285 --> 00:30:56,845
Speaker 1: of course, to look after my brother.

607
00:30:58,085 --> 00:31:00,125
Speaker 2: You can listen to part two of the episode right

608
00:31:00,165 --> 00:31:02,285
Speaker 2: now by the link in the show notes. And what's

609
00:31:02,325 --> 00:31:06,405
Speaker 2: so interesting about it is that it's really amazing how

610
00:31:06,445 --> 00:31:08,885
Speaker 2: her relationship with her parents changed when she was no

611
00:31:08,965 --> 00:31:10,205
Speaker 2: longer under their control.

612
00:31:10,565 --> 00:31:12,125
Speaker 4: First of all, what they did to her.

613
00:31:12,365 --> 00:31:15,325
Speaker 2: But then it was really not what you would expect

614
00:31:15,765 --> 00:31:17,965
Speaker 2: once she was kind of out on her own. And

615
00:31:18,005 --> 00:31:21,765
Speaker 2: the way this story ends is so it's kind of

616
00:31:21,805 --> 00:31:24,685
Speaker 2: like out of a movie. Have a listen, let me

617
00:31:24,725 --> 00:31:25,285
Speaker 2: know what you think,