Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother with Me your podcast.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to biz Inbox. I'm m Vernem and
Speaker 2: I'm so first and every week we answer your burning
Speaker 2: career questions in the simplest way possible because we're all
Speaker 2: busy over here. So I hope you're really proud because
Speaker 2: I've done some homework and I've adopted something that I
Speaker 2: learned on the podcast, and I'm blocking. Yes, my calendar
Speaker 2: has never looked better. Really, I've done like, I think
Speaker 2: I've got a bit too hard into it because I've
Speaker 2: done like a time for waking up, a time for
Speaker 2: getting ready for work, a time for leaving home for work,
Speaker 2: a time to get to work.
Speaker 3: You know, no, it's working.
Speaker 1: This is good. It's all about experimentation.
Speaker 3: It's like, please relax, you can chill, all.
Speaker 1: Right, M.
Speaker 4: Today we're talking about scary work conversations, how to advocate
Speaker 4: for more money for you.
Speaker 1: And your team, and how to recover when you lied
Speaker 1: to your manner.
Speaker 2: Been there, don't tell anyone. So this first question came
Speaker 2: in on LinkedIn and it is anonymous, and I know
Speaker 2: exactly why it is anonymous, and said, hello, I have
Speaker 2: a question for the podcast. I recently stepped into my
Speaker 2: first management position after working as a project manager. I
Speaker 2: was given a salary higher than what I was interviewed for,
Speaker 2: but still low for the type of role, as they
Speaker 2: knew it was my first management position. So our summarized arrest.
Speaker 2: She says that there was no process before she started
Speaker 2: and had a high turnover, and she has a growing
Speaker 2: list of achievements, including her team's morale has been the
Speaker 2: best it's ever been. She also said that the company
Speaker 2: has advertised for other management roles at her level for
Speaker 2: fifteen to thirty k higher, and that there's a huge
Speaker 2: disparity in salaries between the project's teams and the sales teams.
Speaker 2: So she asks, how do I advocate for my team
Speaker 2: and myself when it comes to pay.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I just love this.
Speaker 4: So there's so much unpack here, but I think this
Speaker 4: situation can be really common throughout your career, so I
Speaker 4: really wanted you to talk about it. So I first
Speaker 4: just want to say that despite some kind of shitty
Speaker 4: stuff at her company, she's delivering and her team are happy.
Speaker 4: So that is awesome, and I know this person is brilliant.
Speaker 4: I think there's a really interesting point of leverage that
Speaker 4: she has, which is she says that turnover in the
Speaker 4: company is quite high, but her team is the happiest
Speaker 4: they've ever been. So that's a very important point of leverage.
Speaker 4: And I want to come back to that.
Speaker 1: What do we do.
Speaker 4: I'm going to give you a mindset and if you
Speaker 4: can embrace this mindset, this is like almost all you
Speaker 4: need in your career if you work at a company, Like,
Speaker 4: if you understand this, you'll be good. Like you can
Speaker 4: start embracing this tomorrow, but most people don't do it.
Speaker 4: It's incredibly powerful and it's based on Harvard research, so
Speaker 4: it's like fully backed. Okay, So companies aren't driven by fairness,
Speaker 4: and the way to persuade senior leaders is to actually
Speaker 4: go in with a learning mindset. So the less you
Speaker 4: try to persuade them, ironically, the more persuasive you'll actually be.
Speaker 1: So what do I mean by that? You need to.
Speaker 4: Park any assumptions that you have, Just try and park
Speaker 4: them and switch into curiosity and ask questions as the
Speaker 4: first thing that you do. So I want to ask you, like,
Speaker 4: why do you think they're advertising these jobs that are
Speaker 4: similar for fifty to thirty k higher? Or why do
Speaker 4: you think that one of the other teams is getting
Speaker 4: paid more than her team.
Speaker 2: Is it because they're looking for people with experience, so
Speaker 2: they want to hire more people in that position but
Speaker 2: actually have experience so they can continue I guess, like
Speaker 2: this sounds so shitty, but continue like doing the work
Speaker 2: that she's already started.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it could be that.
Speaker 4: It could be that there's more industry demand for people
Speaker 4: in those roles. It could be that that team has
Speaker 4: a different type of output. It could be that team's
Speaker 4: working on different kinds of projects. It could be that
Speaker 4: they're taking her team for granted, and that's like a
Speaker 4: historical legacy.
Speaker 1: Think.
Speaker 4: The fact is that we don't know what the reasons are.
Speaker 4: So the first thing that you want to do is
Speaker 4: like genuinely go in with curiosity and be like, why
Speaker 4: is this that, like this is happening. And what I
Speaker 4: want this person to do is to be able to
Speaker 4: arm herself with the same information that those leaders have.
Speaker 4: So information is power, and if you can go in
Speaker 4: and start asking some questions. So the first thing that
Speaker 4: I would do is it depends what kind of relationships
Speaker 4: you have with different scenior leaders, with your manager. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and I just want you to start asking questions. So
Speaker 4: it can be things like trying to uncover what the
Speaker 4: A problems in the company are. So these are like
Speaker 4: the really big things. You know, you'll have a strategy
Speaker 4: at the start of the year, and often halfway through
Speaker 4: the year those things aren't actually important anymore. You always
Speaker 4: need to be trying to figure out what are the
Speaker 4: A problems? Are her team contributing or working on those
Speaker 4: A problems? And if they're not, can they be? But
Speaker 4: really just be starting to ask lots of questions. And
Speaker 4: then if this information is public about the roles that
Speaker 4: they're posting that are at a higher salary, Like if
Speaker 4: that information is public, it might be okay with people
Speaker 4: she trust to kind of say, like, you know, I'm
Speaker 4: interested to know why these roles are being advertised at
Speaker 4: a higher rate. And then you know, what is it
Speaker 4: that my team could be doing to deliver the same
Speaker 4: kind of value that these teams.
Speaker 1: Are delivering, or what could I personally be delivering to
Speaker 1: kind of get that.
Speaker 4: So I think just starting with curiosity is the first
Speaker 4: place that I would start interesting. Yeah, and then the
Speaker 4: next thing that you want to do there is a
Speaker 4: hard truth that the single biggest factor there's some research
Speaker 4: behind this that says, particularly for women, why you get
Speaker 4: promoted it's whether or not your contributions are known. So
Speaker 4: that piece around visibility and packaging your work. It is
Speaker 4: true you really need to do it, but most people
Speaker 4: do it in the wrong way. So if you think
Speaker 4: about your sort of performance reviewer and your review and
Speaker 4: you've got these like bullet points and you're bored writing them,
Speaker 4: someone else's board reading them, So like you don't just
Speaker 4: think about like you know, my team contributed ten percent
Speaker 4: or like I did xy Z, you really have to
Speaker 4: tell the story about your contribution and repeat it. There's
Speaker 4: so much noise at companies, and so I think sometimes
Speaker 4: we think like I shared my contributions in my annual
Speaker 4: reviewer in a summary email. It's just like not how
Speaker 4: it works. So there's a really simple way that I
Speaker 4: like to do it, which is think about what it
Speaker 4: was like before. So before she joined or before she
Speaker 4: started working on a certain problem. Now, think about what
Speaker 4: it's like now, So what is the tangible change, Like
Speaker 4: what's been the actual difference? And then if you look
Speaker 4: at how that change, what was like special or unique
Speaker 4: about the way she did it? Like I know this
Speaker 4: person is doing stuff that makes her team happy that
Speaker 4: no one else, like other managers aren't doing. I know
Speaker 4: this person is like doing excellly. She said, she's got
Speaker 4: a growing list of achievements, so she's doing special things.
Speaker 1: I know she is.
Speaker 4: What you want to do is just pick like one
Speaker 4: to three things that are like big problems for the company.
Speaker 4: Do that change so like the before, the after, and
Speaker 4: then what I did that was special, and repeat that
Speaker 4: story to lots of different Oh my.
Speaker 3: God, it's so good.
Speaker 1: That's it, and like you just have to keep doing that.
Speaker 4: And then don't go in and say, like the sales
Speaker 4: team is getting paid more. We're often given this advice,
Speaker 4: like you go in and you say, here's my achievements.
Speaker 4: I'm worth this, this is what I want from the company,
Speaker 4: Like you do sort of need to do those things,
Speaker 4: but first to start with curiosity, then go with storytelling,
Speaker 4: and then you can if you still like really feel
Speaker 4: like you need to have it. It can be something like,
Speaker 4: you know, I've been reflecting on the broader value that
Speaker 4: I've been bringing and I've grown in this role. So
Speaker 4: I started here and now i'm here. Can we talk
Speaker 4: about my path to align my compensation to that, and
Speaker 4: you want to give them like a bit of a runway,
Speaker 4: so like to get to that, Like is it going
Speaker 4: to be six months? What do I need to do
Speaker 4: in that six months time to get there? What you
Speaker 4: don't want to be doing is giving an ultimatum. So
Speaker 4: I see me getting paid more. I want to get
Speaker 4: paid more, ultimatum.
Speaker 1: Don't do that.
Speaker 3: That's so interesting. Oh my god. I hope she messages
Speaker 3: us again.
Speaker 4: Me too. I will do a follow up with her. Guys,
Speaker 4: we love getting your voice notes. And this one came
Speaker 4: in and it's a question I hear all the time,
Speaker 4: so I think it's a really good one for us
Speaker 4: to break down.
Speaker 5: I find having tough conversations at work really difficult, and
Speaker 5: I don't really like bringing things up that are uncomfortable.
Speaker 5: I find once I get going, but getting started is
Speaker 5: the worst part. So I generally put it off, and
Speaker 5: most of the time I just avoid having those conversations
Speaker 5: at all, which really isn't great. How do I start
Speaker 5: scary talks with the boss of work?
Speaker 2: Yeah, m how are you with tough convers I am
Speaker 2: so bad at tough conversations.
Speaker 3: I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2: I have a feeling. It's mainly like performance reviews or
Speaker 2: talking about salary that I'm on the verge of tears
Speaker 2: with every single of those conversations.
Speaker 3: I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2: I think it's something about you trying to advocate for
Speaker 2: yourself in a way that you've never done before in
Speaker 2: your natural life. Yeah, and it's really hard seeing people
Speaker 2: in your workplace, whether it's your manager or your manager's manager,
Speaker 2: having to tell you that either you're not good enough
Speaker 2: for this thing or you.
Speaker 3: Need to do It's a weird like reverse therapy.
Speaker 1: Yeah way.
Speaker 2: Instead of your therapist is trying to make you feel
Speaker 2: really really good about yourself, you're getting someone who's like
Speaker 2: doing kind of the opposite.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very unusual, especially in a work context, and
Speaker 4: like you know, you don't do them that often, so
Speaker 4: it makes sense that you're going to be feeling always shakes, yes, exactly,
Speaker 4: So something that I think can really help. And often,
Speaker 4: like getting started is the hardest part. Like once you're
Speaker 4: into the converse itself, it can be easier, but just
Speaker 4: to focus in on getting started, which is what this
Speaker 4: question is about. Want you to think about a frame
Speaker 4: for the conversation, So a really good frame can sometimes
Speaker 4: be just calling the conversation for what it is and
Speaker 4: stating your intention for having the conversation in the first place. So,
Speaker 4: I mean, there's lots of different types of scary conversations,
Speaker 4: from like asking for four weeks holiday, through to you know,
Speaker 4: trying to give someone feedback, through to raising something like
Speaker 4: a request that you have. So I like to call
Speaker 4: the conversation for what it is and state my intention
Speaker 4: for having it. So an example might be, this isn't
Speaker 4: going to be an easy conversation for us to have,
Speaker 4: but I really care about the dynamic between us, so
Speaker 4: I really want us to take the time to talk
Speaker 4: to you about this. Or another one might be I
Speaker 4: need to request something and I've actually been thinking a
Speaker 4: lot about how this is going to impact you. So
Speaker 4: I've come with some options, and I want to give
Speaker 4: you the chance to kind of pick from those options.
Speaker 4: Just creating a little frame and kind of saying this
Speaker 4: is sort of how I feel about having the conversation.
Speaker 4: You can be a little bit honest and then saying
Speaker 4: this is my intention for having it. That can set
Speaker 4: it up really nicely, even just as simple as saying, like,
Speaker 4: you know, I've been feeling a little bit nervous to
Speaker 4: have this conversation, or I've been feeling a little bit worried.
Speaker 1: I heard a really good.
Speaker 4: Piece of advice the other day, which was, if you
Speaker 4: are trying to give feedback to someone, you can even
Speaker 4: just say, you know, this might come out as a
Speaker 4: little bit clumsy. I'm not sure if my words are
Speaker 4: going to be perfect. It might not be perfectly articulated.
Speaker 4: But I know that you really value honesty and directness,
Speaker 4: so is it okay if I just try my best.
Speaker 4: I think it's like this really nice frame you can
Speaker 4: put on a conversation first before you actually get into
Speaker 4: the detail of the conversation, to just kind of like
Speaker 4: spend a minute talking about what the conversation is going
Speaker 4: to be. It helps the other person prepare, and it
Speaker 4: also just helps you prepare as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think that's so good because I feel like with
Speaker 2: these conversations, exactly what this person says, like in the beginning.
Speaker 2: I feel like sometimes the way you start the conversation,
Speaker 2: you might psyche yourself out and take it in a
Speaker 2: different place that you didn't plan to. But if you
Speaker 2: do the framework, then you're locked in, like you've already
Speaker 2: announced it.
Speaker 4: That is exactly right. It makes it so much easier.
Speaker 4: And there's one other tip that I think is really important.
Speaker 4: If they know it's going to be a tough conversation, say,
Speaker 4: for example, like you've had some issues with the client
Speaker 4: and you're like, okay, you're on email and you're like,
Speaker 4: we have to talk about this.
Speaker 1: Can we have a phone call? Right?
Speaker 4: So you're both coming into it knowing it's going to
Speaker 4: be a tough conversation. Don't start with small talk. Just
Speaker 4: say to them, thank you for giving me your time today,
Speaker 4: thanks to taking the time. Don't start with like, how
Speaker 4: are you, how's your day been. They know it's going
Speaker 4: to be a tough conversation. They're just waiting for you
Speaker 4: to start with the bad stuff. So no small talk.
Speaker 4: If people know it's going to be a.
Speaker 3: Still conversation, Okay, I have to try that, all right.
Speaker 2: Coming up, we are talking about a TikTok that's gone
Speaker 2: absolutely viral. It's about lying to your boss and it
Speaker 2: hits too close to hope to close. Okay, So this TikTok,
Speaker 2: I've seen it a few times on my social media feeds,
Speaker 2: and it's probably because my algorithm knows exactly what I'm
Speaker 2: going through, and I want to explain it to you
Speaker 2: because it's a lot of text. So it's basically someone
Speaker 2: sitting at their computer typing, and the text on the
Speaker 2: video says me starting a task. I told my boss
Speaker 2: that I'd started two weeks ago, and then it shows
Speaker 2: them clicking a link into a Google Docs and it
Speaker 2: comes up with the dreaded access denied, please request. So
Speaker 2: I have been in this exact same position. I told
Speaker 2: my boss I was working on I think it was
Speaker 2: a podcast script. Georgie, our producer wasn't this one, don't
Speaker 2: at me. I was working on a podcast script a
Speaker 2: few years ago, and my producer was like, hey, just
Speaker 2: checking you've done your script, Just done your script, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, yep, yep, done it, done it, done it.
Speaker 2: And then that night I went in to do the
Speaker 2: script because I hadn't done it, and it came up
Speaker 2: with please request access from my producer.
Speaker 3: So I requested the access.
Speaker 2: And then I slacked her and I was like, hey,
Speaker 2: so weird. The access reverted and I made her problem.
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't know how you did that,
Speaker 2: but if you could please grant me access again.
Speaker 3: I was like, I just have to make some forget it. Oh,
Speaker 3: I love it, away with it?
Speaker 4: Yeah if she listens to Yeah, I think you know,
Speaker 4: this is a lesson that you learn the hard way.
Speaker 1: I wonder if you would do something different now that.
Speaker 3: You're really do like a win is a win.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 4: Here's the thing, right, Managers don't actually care about mistakes,
Speaker 4: I would even include like a little lie like this
Speaker 4: in that category. What they care about is whether or
Speaker 4: not they can trust you. And so the most important
Speaker 4: thing that you want to protect is your long term
Speaker 4: trust with your manager at all course, and like a
Speaker 4: little silly thing like this doesn't need to get in
Speaker 4: the way of that long term trust. So, honestly, the
Speaker 4: best thing you can do is just to be totally honest.
Speaker 4: Don't cover up a lie with another lie, and what
Speaker 4: you find is like then you start trying to ghost
Speaker 4: things and it just gets really bad. I honestly think
Speaker 4: the best thing to do is to just say I
Speaker 4: told you I started this task, and I haven't. And
Speaker 4: the reason for that is I was feeling a bit
Speaker 4: overwhelmed with the stuff I had on my plate, and
Speaker 4: I didn't want you to think that I wasn't on
Speaker 4: top of things, but I realized now that that wasn't
Speaker 4: the right thing to do. It actually feels way worse
Speaker 4: not being honest with you. So I just want to
Speaker 4: let you know. I'm requesting access now. I'm starting the task.
Speaker 4: It's at the top of my priority list. I'm going
Speaker 4: to have it done in two hours, and like, I'm
Speaker 4: not going to do this again because I really care
Speaker 4: about my relationship with you. That's all you need to
Speaker 4: do and then just like move on. It's not a
Speaker 4: big deal. Like, honestly, I've manager, how.
Speaker 3: Would you take that information so well?
Speaker 4: I'd be like, I actually think I like you more
Speaker 4: and trust you more now than before this happened. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 4: because you're like that honesty that was the exact right
Speaker 4: thing to do. I feel like I can really trust you.
Speaker 4: Also as a manager, you know yourself, like you've done this.
Speaker 4: It's like when your team does it too, it's way
Speaker 4: worse to sort of try to keep lying to them
Speaker 4: because you can kind of spot that too as a manager. Yeah,
Speaker 4: So just like, don't undermine the trust that you have.
Speaker 4: But I also do think maybe there's a sneaky little
Speaker 4: is there anyone else who can give you access to
Speaker 4: the thing.
Speaker 1: I would probably do.
Speaker 3: That first, your IT team exactly.
Speaker 4: I've definitely done that. I have definitely done that and
Speaker 4: you can get saved. So I'm pro that do a
Speaker 4: little sneaky. Is there a way around this first? And
Speaker 4: then if there's not, just be honest.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just stop before you hack that email.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: On that note, thank you so much for helping us
Speaker 2: clear the biz Inbox this week. If you have a
Speaker 2: work question, please send it our way. You'll find a
Speaker 2: link to submit all of your questions in our show notes.
Speaker 2: You can tell us your name or you can remain
Speaker 2: completely anonymous.
Speaker 4: And if you miss any of our episodes, just scroll
Speaker 4: back in your feed. We'll be back in the biz
Speaker 4: Inbox next week.
Speaker 3: Bye Mia.
Speaker 2: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
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