WEBVTT - Bethany Joy Lenz Was On A Hit TV Show And In A Cult At The Same Time (Part 1) 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:15.005 You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges 0:00:15.045 --> 0:00:17.685 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.765 --> 0:00:29.605 is recorded on from Mamma may I'm Maya Friedman. You're 0:00:29.645 --> 0:00:33.445 listening to No Filter and this is an episode about 0:00:33.565 --> 0:00:37.245 cults and Bethany Joy Lentz, who has been in two 0:00:37.325 --> 0:00:42.125 different kinds of cults, a good cult and a really 0:00:42.445 --> 0:00:46.525 really bad one. The good kind is the television show 0:00:46.525 --> 0:00:49.845 One Tree Hill, where she played the iconic character Hayley 0:00:50.325 --> 0:00:51.445 for nearly a decade. 0:00:51.565 --> 0:00:54.245 We made our decision, we got married and were happy, 0:00:54.245 --> 0:00:55.885 and if you're not here to celebrate with us, then. 0:00:55.765 --> 0:00:58.005 You should just go home, because I don't want you here. 0:00:58.445 --> 0:01:02.365 And which even today has what we would colloquially call 0:01:02.605 --> 0:01:05.565 a cult following, because when we use that word to 0:01:05.565 --> 0:01:09.125 talk about a TV show or a band, what we're 0:01:09.165 --> 0:01:13.125 so is that it's captivated a particular type of very 0:01:13.205 --> 0:01:16.845 committed audience, and that it has a devoted following, and 0:01:16.965 --> 0:01:19.765 that it's something that's become almost a part of the 0:01:19.805 --> 0:01:23.405 fabric of who those people are. And those are the 0:01:23.445 --> 0:01:27.245 features of the more sinister and truer meaning of the 0:01:27.245 --> 0:01:32.445 word cult as well. And Bethany Joy Lentz, who prefers 0:01:32.485 --> 0:01:34.845 to go by the name Joy, was in that kind 0:01:34.845 --> 0:01:38.845 of cult. At the same time, she was in a bad, toxic, 0:01:39.485 --> 0:01:44.085 abusive kind of cult. The kind of cult that isolates 0:01:44.165 --> 0:01:48.365 you from your friends and family, that controls every facet 0:01:48.365 --> 0:01:53.285 of your life, that demands your utter loyalty and Enjoy's case, 0:01:53.845 --> 0:01:57.805 your hard earned money millions of dollars. The kind of 0:01:57.845 --> 0:02:01.845 cult that puts you in emotional and physical danger and 0:02:01.925 --> 0:02:05.565 makes you too scared to ask for help, let alone 0:02:05.565 --> 0:02:11.685 get away. But eventually, when something unthinkable and intolerable began 0:02:11.765 --> 0:02:16.365 to happen, Joy did ask for help, and eventually she 0:02:16.445 --> 0:02:20.485 did get out. She's written a memoir about her experience 0:02:20.845 --> 0:02:24.525 called Dinner for Vampires. She spent a really long time 0:02:24.725 --> 0:02:27.605 coming to terms with what happened to her, and she's 0:02:27.725 --> 0:02:32.805 finally ready to talk about it, especially how she escaped 0:02:33.325 --> 0:02:38.085 and recovered. It's an incredible story that was even more 0:02:38.125 --> 0:02:42.125 incredible because it was happening under the noses of everybody 0:02:42.125 --> 0:02:46.525 who watched and loved One Tree Hill for all those years. 0:02:47.045 --> 0:02:49.565 Because the years that Joy was in that cult are 0:02:49.605 --> 0:02:53.365 the same years that she was incredibly famous on one 0:02:53.405 --> 0:02:57.605 of the most successful TV shows in the world. Here's 0:02:57.685 --> 0:03:01.885 Joy with her story. The title of the book Dinner 0:03:01.925 --> 0:03:06.005 for Vampires. Where did that come from? 0:03:06.605 --> 0:03:09.125 You know, that is as much my guess as it 0:03:09.245 --> 0:03:12.205 is yours. It flew out of my pen. I was, well, 0:03:12.365 --> 0:03:15.005 you know, my metaphor pen meaning my keyboard. I was 0:03:15.125 --> 0:03:20.725 typing this paragraph that was just something about how I 0:03:20.765 --> 0:03:22.805 never could have known in that moment that I would 0:03:22.845 --> 0:03:27.485 eventually end up becoming dinner for these vampires. And as 0:03:27.525 --> 0:03:30.445 it came out, I went, oh, yeah, that's actually exactly 0:03:30.445 --> 0:03:33.325 what it was. That really encompasses the book. And I 0:03:33.445 --> 0:03:35.685 like the tone of it being a little, a little 0:03:35.685 --> 0:03:37.685 tongue in cheek because I wanted that tone for the 0:03:37.685 --> 0:03:38.485 book overall. 0:03:39.205 --> 0:03:43.685 Yeah, so you're the dinner and the vampires are essentially 0:03:43.925 --> 0:03:45.205 the big House family. 0:03:45.885 --> 0:03:49.045 Well, yeah, it's it's a term that's I think commonly 0:03:49.125 --> 0:03:50.205 used for a narcissists. 0:03:50.725 --> 0:03:52.005 That's that's what they are. 0:03:52.045 --> 0:03:54.885 They you know, they can't they don't have an identity 0:03:54.885 --> 0:03:57.405 of their own, so they have to suck yours out. 0:03:57.405 --> 0:03:59.525 They have to suck the life out of you. 0:03:59.525 --> 0:04:05.485 You quote something from the series The Vow, and you said, 0:04:05.685 --> 0:04:08.525 nobody joins a cult, you join a good thing. Nobody 0:04:08.565 --> 0:04:11.245 walks into a seat and says, sign me up, I 0:04:11.285 --> 0:04:13.285 want to fuck up the rest of my life. 0:04:13.885 --> 0:04:18.405 That's Mark Vincent Davy. Yeah, that's such a great quote. 0:04:18.525 --> 0:04:20.765 That's the name I was looking for. Very smart man, 0:04:20.885 --> 0:04:24.005 And I want to start with a bit about your 0:04:24.045 --> 0:04:27.605 life before you walked into that situation. Yeah, you grew 0:04:27.725 --> 0:04:31.645 up in Texas. When did you decide that you wanted 0:04:31.685 --> 0:04:32.205 to be an actor? 0:04:32.645 --> 0:04:35.645 Oh gosh, I mean I didn't. I wasn't aware that 0:04:35.645 --> 0:04:39.205 that could really be something you do as a career 0:04:40.005 --> 0:04:44.085 until I was probably ten or eleven. I think I 0:04:44.125 --> 0:04:46.165 started to become really more aware that, oh, this is 0:04:46.205 --> 0:04:48.805 something people actually do with their lives. But I did 0:04:48.845 --> 0:04:51.845 begin doing local theater when I was about seven, and 0:04:51.885 --> 0:04:56.005 it was probably just a way of my parents being 0:04:56.045 --> 0:04:58.445 like this, she can't sit still, she's always singing, she's 0:04:58.485 --> 0:05:02.805 always writing songs and making up stories and just be 0:05:02.925 --> 0:05:06.285 you know, she's got this huge imagination. And my father 0:05:06.525 --> 0:05:09.165 was no stranger to this, having grown up with two 0:05:09.445 --> 0:05:10.805 parents in musical theater. 0:05:10.965 --> 0:05:13.605 I'm sure he was like, I know exactly what this is. 0:05:15.165 --> 0:05:17.925 Is that your grandmother Doris, because she was, Yes, my 0:05:18.005 --> 0:05:18.725 grandma Doush. 0:05:18.805 --> 0:05:21.285 I write about in the book and the impact that 0:05:21.365 --> 0:05:25.085 she had in my artistic life. And his father, George Lenz, 0:05:25.125 --> 0:05:28.085 who is I mean, playbill dot com. Go check it out, 0:05:28.085 --> 0:05:32.805 you'll see his resume. So he definitely recognized the signs. 0:05:32.845 --> 0:05:37.805 And my mom was also really creative, and so I 0:05:37.845 --> 0:05:39.965 think they both just went, let's just put her in 0:05:40.005 --> 0:05:41.765 some theater and see if that helps her get her 0:05:41.845 --> 0:05:42.445 energy out. 0:05:42.685 --> 0:05:45.365 And it worked because you started getting jobs as a kid, 0:05:45.605 --> 0:05:48.365 and you traveled to LA and you built up your resume. 0:05:48.485 --> 0:05:51.285 You got some pretty big gigs alongside people like Paul 0:05:51.325 --> 0:05:54.525 Savino and James Franco, and eventually you got a regular 0:05:54.605 --> 0:05:58.005 role on a really big soap opera, Guiding Light. What 0:05:58.165 --> 0:06:01.845 was it like being a teenage girl navigating Hollywood and 0:06:01.885 --> 0:06:05.605 then back home navigating a pretty religious family and community, 0:06:05.645 --> 0:06:07.245 which is how you grew up? 0:06:07.885 --> 0:06:11.765 Great question, You know, I never considered New York to 0:06:11.845 --> 0:06:14.965 be Hollywood. There was so much more serious in New 0:06:15.045 --> 0:06:17.125 York than it was whenever I would go to LA 0:06:17.365 --> 0:06:21.205 and go audition for pilots, you know, with the wide 0:06:21.285 --> 0:06:23.525 roads and the sun and the palm trees and the 0:06:24.045 --> 0:06:28.525 very sort of glamorous feeling in the air driving onto 0:06:28.565 --> 0:06:32.565 these big studios, and so I would go and do 0:06:32.725 --> 0:06:36.325 some of those pilots for a few weeks. But I 0:06:36.485 --> 0:06:38.445 lived in New Jersey, and I was in New York 0:06:38.525 --> 0:06:40.685 City for you know, three or four days out of 0:06:40.685 --> 0:06:42.765 the week for my voice lessons and dance lessons and 0:06:43.165 --> 0:06:47.765 auditions for films and things. So in New York, living 0:06:47.845 --> 0:06:50.845 in that environment, I didn't feel really like I was 0:06:51.045 --> 0:06:55.205 a part of that Hollywood experience as much as just 0:06:55.285 --> 0:06:58.485 the very serious actory artist community in New York. 0:06:59.205 --> 0:07:01.965 I was going to ask about how the church reacted 0:07:02.005 --> 0:07:05.685 because as soap opera, you know, apart from the idea 0:07:05.765 --> 0:07:09.165 of show business, the content on the soap opera itself, 0:07:09.445 --> 0:07:13.445 I mean, it's not raunchy, but you know, soaps on 0:07:13.805 --> 0:07:15.765 are they godly? I don't know how. 0:07:17.245 --> 0:07:19.365 Well. The community I was a part of at the 0:07:19.365 --> 0:07:21.925 time certainly didn't think. So. I was a part of 0:07:21.965 --> 0:07:26.085 the worship team, which is just the people who sing 0:07:26.165 --> 0:07:28.245 music on stage when you go to a church where 0:07:28.245 --> 0:07:31.205 they have music. Some churches do choirs and some have 0:07:31.285 --> 0:07:34.525 a band on stage, and ours was kind of the band, 0:07:34.605 --> 0:07:36.085 and it was called the worship team, and I was 0:07:36.085 --> 0:07:39.085 on it, and they asked me to step down after 0:07:39.125 --> 0:07:41.525 I got this job on a soap opera, which was 0:07:41.565 --> 0:07:46.205 so confusing to me because to your original question, navigating 0:07:46.445 --> 0:07:52.005 this spiritual life and also navigating being in the entertainment 0:07:52.045 --> 0:07:59.325 industry was never terribly conflicting for me because to me, 0:07:59.805 --> 0:08:01.925 like I was raised on the Bible, Like, how do 0:08:01.965 --> 0:08:05.165 you get better bigger stories than the Bible? And I'm 0:08:05.205 --> 0:08:08.485 a storyteller, so it went hand in hand to me. 0:08:08.605 --> 0:08:10.285 I was just like, yeah, we're just making art, we're 0:08:10.325 --> 0:08:13.525 telling stories, and I mean, you want to talk about 0:08:13.565 --> 0:08:16.525 some really racy stuff, Like I could direct you to 0:08:16.565 --> 0:08:18.325 several books in the Bible and have a lot. 0:08:18.205 --> 0:08:21.925 Of really controversial things in them. So it just was 0:08:22.005 --> 0:08:23.005 not on my radar. 0:08:23.125 --> 0:08:26.005 And I was really surprised when I started to get 0:08:26.085 --> 0:08:31.325 older and realized that a lot of people didn't view art. 0:08:32.005 --> 0:08:33.325 In the same way that I did. 0:08:33.365 --> 0:08:36.685 They felt like it was a very anti god, anti 0:08:36.765 --> 0:08:40.445 religious thing, and I'm still baffled by that. 0:08:40.445 --> 0:08:43.685 That contradiction must have been sort of hard to navigate. 0:08:43.725 --> 0:08:47.925 And what's interesting to me is how you describe sort 0:08:47.925 --> 0:08:50.525 of living at different times. You live alone in New 0:08:50.605 --> 0:08:54.285 York and then eventually you moved to La. Your faith 0:08:54.325 --> 0:08:57.005 remains really important to you and you always seek out 0:08:57.485 --> 0:09:01.765 those subcultures of you know, artists who are also Christian. 0:09:02.325 --> 0:09:04.765 So it wasn't just you that was feeling that contradiction. 0:09:05.325 --> 0:09:07.405 And the thing is it didn't feel like a contradiction 0:09:07.565 --> 0:09:10.245 to us. It seemed to be that way to so 0:09:10.325 --> 0:09:13.925 many other people in the religious communities that we were in, 0:09:14.045 --> 0:09:16.485 which was confusing. But yeah, so we would really seek 0:09:16.525 --> 0:09:19.005 each other out, like, where are the other storytellers in 0:09:19.045 --> 0:09:22.285 the world who believe in God, who have a sense 0:09:22.445 --> 0:09:27.645 of morality? And that looks a specific way, I guess 0:09:27.765 --> 0:09:30.245 is what I felt when I was young, and I 0:09:30.285 --> 0:09:34.085 wanted to be surrounded by like minded people, as anyone 0:09:34.725 --> 0:09:37.845 with any set of beliefs I think looks for you 0:09:38.005 --> 0:09:40.445 want to have people around you that support what you 0:09:40.525 --> 0:09:43.565 believe and who can encourage you when you're feeling down 0:09:43.565 --> 0:09:45.285 and things like that. So it seemed like a very 0:09:45.365 --> 0:09:46.765 natural thing to look for. 0:09:47.365 --> 0:09:50.285 You talk about floating around a little bit, but finding 0:09:50.325 --> 0:09:54.005 your community. And then the night everything changed. What happened 0:09:54.005 --> 0:09:54.725 on that night. 0:09:55.205 --> 0:09:58.645 I yeah, so I had found this really lovely group 0:09:58.685 --> 0:10:02.725 of people through my roommate in LA I was feeling sorry. 0:10:02.525 --> 0:10:04.805 If you guys hear my dog's park sometimes I loved them. 0:10:06.645 --> 0:10:09.165 I had moved to LA I was feeling really lonely. 0:10:09.325 --> 0:10:13.045 I missed my New York community, and my roommate invited 0:10:13.085 --> 0:10:14.765 me to come to a Bible study that she was 0:10:14.805 --> 0:10:19.245 a part of with other young artists and entertainment industry professionals, 0:10:20.045 --> 0:10:23.045 and we all just became really good friends and got 0:10:23.085 --> 0:10:25.165 to know each other very well. It was an easy 0:10:25.205 --> 0:10:29.165 community to slip into, and there wasn't anything that gave 0:10:29.165 --> 0:10:33.325 me red flags. In fact, I didn't write about this 0:10:33.365 --> 0:10:35.325 in the book, but I remember once when I was 0:10:35.925 --> 0:10:40.285 probably around the age of twelve, my parents took us 0:10:40.285 --> 0:10:42.485 that we were visiting churches, and my parents took me 0:10:42.605 --> 0:10:45.725 to this one church. We started going for like three months, 0:10:45.725 --> 0:10:47.685 and I just loved it. I was so close, it 0:10:47.725 --> 0:10:49.365 was artists, it was all this great thing. And then 0:10:49.485 --> 0:10:53.045 one day my dad said, we're not going there anymore. 0:10:53.325 --> 0:10:54.365 After a church service. 0:10:54.365 --> 0:10:56.325 He came and picked me up after the Sunday school 0:10:56.365 --> 0:10:58.485 youth group thing, and I said, why he goes it's 0:10:58.485 --> 0:11:01.765 a cult. It's like, what are you talking about, Dad, 0:11:02.085 --> 0:11:04.485 And he was like, no, no, it's a cult. 0:11:04.525 --> 0:11:04.965 We got to go. 0:11:05.125 --> 0:11:07.445 This is not right, and I was devastated. I missed 0:11:07.485 --> 0:11:10.645 this group of friends that I had built. So it's funny, 0:11:10.685 --> 0:11:12.965 how you know, it can take a while to notice 0:11:12.965 --> 0:11:16.645 things sometimes. And it felt really benign, and I think 0:11:16.645 --> 0:11:19.005 it was. But then two of the young men who 0:11:19.085 --> 0:11:22.605 were running the group, and they had invited a pastor 0:11:22.925 --> 0:11:26.845 from another state to come down and speak to the group, 0:11:27.885 --> 0:11:30.445 and he himself had been going through a hard time 0:11:31.125 --> 0:11:34.125 leaving the church that he had previously been associated with, 0:11:35.005 --> 0:11:38.765 And we were so young, and we felt really empathetic 0:11:38.845 --> 0:11:42.525 toward him and his family and wanted to greet him 0:11:42.525 --> 0:11:46.005 with open arms, and we were happy to have a real, older, 0:11:46.165 --> 0:11:49.485 actual pastor in our midst and wanted to listen for 0:11:49.565 --> 0:11:52.845 his wisdom. I mean, it was just a perfect storm. 0:11:52.965 --> 0:11:55.045 I think he looked around and saw a bunch of 0:11:55.125 --> 0:11:59.165 young entertainment professionals and got dollar signs in his eyes 0:11:59.205 --> 0:12:02.205 and went, oh, I know what I can do here. 0:12:02.605 --> 0:12:03.805 But we were none the wiser. 0:12:03.845 --> 0:12:06.685 Of course, there's a sort of cost of characters who 0:12:06.725 --> 0:12:10.445 went to your life at this point. Can you set 0:12:10.485 --> 0:12:14.245 the stage a little bit and explain who Les and 0:12:14.325 --> 0:12:17.045 Martin and Ed and pam Ah. 0:12:17.165 --> 0:12:20.685 Yes, So in the book I start to explain when 0:12:20.725 --> 0:12:24.325 I meet this pastor whose name is Les and his 0:12:24.365 --> 0:12:30.325 wife is Martin. He's got three sons, He's got good 0:12:30.405 --> 0:12:35.125 friends who he's met through these younger gentlemen in the group. 0:12:36.005 --> 0:12:39.645 Their parents are from the same state where the pastor 0:12:39.725 --> 0:12:43.605 is from. Less and that's Ed and Pam. 0:12:44.085 --> 0:12:45.005 They all have this. 0:12:45.085 --> 0:12:48.605 History in Seventh day Adventism, which I really knew nothing about. 0:12:48.685 --> 0:12:52.525 It was not I was always raised in the non 0:12:52.525 --> 0:12:57.365 denominational charismatic Christian Church and didn't know anything really about 0:12:57.405 --> 0:13:02.245 the other denominations, and so it was interesting. I was curious. 0:13:02.285 --> 0:13:05.805 I wanted to know more about their history and why 0:13:05.845 --> 0:13:11.085 they had grown disaffected with their branch of Christianity. You know, 0:13:11.125 --> 0:13:15.005 I just felt like a nice community to be a 0:13:15.045 --> 0:13:17.725 part of when I didn't have my parents around or 0:13:17.925 --> 0:13:20.325 any of my friends from the East coast. 0:13:21.085 --> 0:13:26.165 You refer to Less and Pam even though they weren't 0:13:26.205 --> 0:13:29.205 a couple, that they sort of become your spiritual parents. 0:13:29.645 --> 0:13:33.765 Is that how you felt being away from your own family. 0:13:34.325 --> 0:13:34.765 Yeah. 0:13:35.485 --> 0:13:41.085 I think anytime we're longing for pieces of community that 0:13:41.165 --> 0:13:44.605 are not there's like gaps in our in our heart 0:13:44.685 --> 0:13:46.325 for different people in community. 0:13:46.925 --> 0:13:47.805 We seek that out. 0:13:48.085 --> 0:13:52.285 And I grew up as an only child. There was 0:13:52.325 --> 0:13:56.445 a lot of tempestuousness in the air in my home 0:13:56.525 --> 0:13:59.805 with my parents and what they were going through among themselves, 0:14:00.085 --> 0:14:03.205 and I just really wanted to feel like I was 0:14:03.205 --> 0:14:06.285 a part of a family, like a real family, and 0:14:06.405 --> 0:14:13.005 so less was this you know, sort of jovial, sweet, funny, 0:14:13.365 --> 0:14:19.285 irreverend character who was very warm in a way that 0:14:19.685 --> 0:14:22.725 my father I think is really deep down he's a 0:14:22.725 --> 0:14:26.005 big puppy dog, but he's got a harder exterior. And 0:14:26.085 --> 0:14:31.965 I was craving that open, masculine, warm energy that I 0:14:31.965 --> 0:14:36.245 didn't receive a lot of as a child. And Pam 0:14:37.445 --> 0:14:43.325 came in with the same type of motherly, gentle kind, sweet, 0:14:43.445 --> 0:14:49.485 soft spoken, good listener, really encouraging and all these things 0:14:49.525 --> 0:14:53.565 that I also believe my mother feels underneath her exterior. 0:14:54.085 --> 0:14:56.485 But I you know, as a child, we only see 0:14:56.485 --> 0:15:00.205 what we see, and so without understanding the complexity of 0:15:00.245 --> 0:15:03.205 who people are and how we develop and what's really 0:15:03.205 --> 0:15:06.925 going on behind the surface, it's hard to see those things. 0:15:06.965 --> 0:15:09.085 And you know, again I was young, so I just 0:15:09.165 --> 0:15:15.005 was like, oh, warm, open dad figure, gentle kind, encouraging 0:15:15.045 --> 0:15:17.485 mother figure, this is what I need in my life. 0:15:17.725 --> 0:15:21.045 And I adopted them as much as they adopted me metaphorically. 0:15:21.885 --> 0:15:25.965 I want to understand how you know it seems so inocuous. 0:15:26.005 --> 0:15:28.445 It's you go to a Bible study group, there's this 0:15:28.525 --> 0:15:34.045 guest speaker. One night, you're auditioning, you're getting roles, You're 0:15:34.085 --> 0:15:37.325 twenty two years old, living in la How does it 0:15:37.485 --> 0:15:41.165 escalate like in the actual the next week? Do you 0:15:41.245 --> 0:15:44.965 go again? And then how do things get to get 0:15:45.205 --> 0:15:47.765 to the point, yeah, where you start coming. I imagine 0:15:47.765 --> 0:15:49.765 it's like frog and boiling water. Right, it doesn't start 0:15:49.805 --> 0:15:50.405 out boiling. 0:15:50.885 --> 0:15:53.525 That's absolutely what it is. It's the frog and boiling water. 0:15:53.725 --> 0:15:56.725 It happens so slowly and so many of the things 0:15:57.045 --> 0:16:01.885 are innocuous and look totally fine. And that's how That's 0:16:01.925 --> 0:16:05.045 how narcissists get you, whether it's in a group dynamic 0:16:05.165 --> 0:16:08.885 or whether it's in an individual personal relationship dynamic. There's 0:16:08.885 --> 0:16:12.925 this love bombing phase where everything seems great and there's 0:16:13.005 --> 0:16:15.645 only a couple of red flags like here and there, 0:16:15.685 --> 0:16:20.325 but the good far outweighs the bad, or the things 0:16:20.365 --> 0:16:23.045 that make sense far outweigh the couple of things that 0:16:23.085 --> 0:16:25.645 you're like, I don't know about that, but I guess 0:16:25.685 --> 0:16:26.725 everything else makes sense. 0:16:26.805 --> 0:16:28.645 So I'm sure, it's fine. It must be me. 0:16:28.885 --> 0:16:32.765 I'm so young, I'm so naive, they're so wise. I 0:16:32.845 --> 0:16:37.125 really should just like listen and learn and trust, which 0:16:37.165 --> 0:16:39.765 is a beautiful place to be and for anyone to 0:16:39.805 --> 0:16:42.605 be curious and to be trusting people around you and 0:16:42.645 --> 0:16:47.085 to be interested in people who are who have been 0:16:47.125 --> 0:16:49.525 through different things in life, Like I think that's an 0:16:49.565 --> 0:16:52.805 admirable quality. But of course when you're so young, it's 0:16:52.845 --> 0:16:54.685 easy to be taking advantage of when you're in that 0:16:54.765 --> 0:16:59.285 place as well. So I mean, really, to answer your question, 0:16:59.325 --> 0:17:02.645 the whole book is that story, and why I wanted 0:17:02.685 --> 0:17:05.245 to tell it that way was so that people could 0:17:05.325 --> 0:17:10.005 see how slow and insidious it is a long time. 0:17:10.205 --> 0:17:14.205 It's a slow burn, and you've got to be able 0:17:14.245 --> 0:17:17.805 to start to trust your instinct pretty early on if 0:17:17.805 --> 0:17:20.685 you're not going to get sucked into something. Yeah, you 0:17:20.725 --> 0:17:24.165 know that's that's got a narcissistic abuse agenda behind it. 0:17:29.165 --> 0:17:32.005 More of my conversation with Joy after this short break, 0:17:36.045 --> 0:17:38.565 you talk about some words that Less said to you 0:17:38.925 --> 0:17:41.805 that sort of hooked you. He said, Joy, it's time 0:17:41.845 --> 0:17:43.965 for you to come out of agreement with the idea 0:17:44.005 --> 0:17:47.005 that you'll runner up and release the spirit of performance 0:17:47.045 --> 0:17:51.725 for love. Why did those words hit so hard for you? 0:17:52.645 --> 0:17:56.605 I was a needy kid, emotionally really needy kid. I 0:17:57.125 --> 0:18:00.605 just wanted to be I wanted to feel safe and loved, 0:18:00.685 --> 0:18:03.445 and I think that could That's something so many people 0:18:03.485 --> 0:18:06.485 can relate to, being a child in a home where 0:18:07.805 --> 0:18:11.045 there are loving parents who have a lot of their 0:18:11.045 --> 0:18:14.245 own complications going on. Parents had me when they were 0:18:14.245 --> 0:18:17.725 twenty two years old. I mean, and they came from 0:18:17.805 --> 0:18:22.125 broken homes. They came from homes with addiction and patterns 0:18:22.205 --> 0:18:27.565 of behavioral abuse and patterns of fear, and I mean 0:18:27.565 --> 0:18:31.045 there's just so much that they were carrying in and 0:18:31.085 --> 0:18:33.245 then trying to raise a little girl with no money 0:18:33.565 --> 0:18:36.965 and you know, bouncing around from job to job and 0:18:37.005 --> 0:18:40.405 doing their best. I mean, how difficult must that have 0:18:40.485 --> 0:18:46.725 been for them? And I adopted very early on the 0:18:47.325 --> 0:18:49.845 I've got me Like you guys clearly have a lot 0:18:49.885 --> 0:18:52.885 going on. Don't worry about me. I'll stay out of 0:18:52.885 --> 0:18:56.285 the way. I don't want to take up space and 0:18:56.325 --> 0:18:57.845 the one but of course I did want to take 0:18:57.885 --> 0:19:00.685 up space, because everyone inherently deserves to take up space 0:19:00.685 --> 0:19:03.285 on the planet. So you know, you're never going to 0:19:03.285 --> 0:19:05.045 get away from that. And so the way that I 0:19:05.085 --> 0:19:07.525 found to take up space was on stage, which is, 0:19:07.845 --> 0:19:09.605 you know, just put me on a stage. I can 0:19:09.645 --> 0:19:12.085 take up all the space on an entire stage. Just 0:19:12.125 --> 0:19:14.965 put me there on a spotlight and we'll be golden and. 0:19:16.485 --> 0:19:16.725 Yes. 0:19:16.845 --> 0:19:18.965 And that's so I felt so free and I felt 0:19:19.005 --> 0:19:21.965 so like, oh, that's my identity is here. But you 0:19:21.965 --> 0:19:23.565 have to work hard and you have to prove it. 0:19:23.605 --> 0:19:25.925 And if you make a joke and the audience doesn't laugh, 0:19:26.525 --> 0:19:28.565 you're failing at taking. 0:19:28.325 --> 0:19:30.085 Up the space properly. 0:19:30.165 --> 0:19:31.805 You feel like you don't deserve to take up that 0:19:31.845 --> 0:19:34.845 space because you're not doing a good enough job. And 0:19:34.925 --> 0:19:39.325 so that mindset then carried for me into so many 0:19:39.365 --> 0:19:44.205 realms beyond entertainment, but just in my relationships at school, 0:19:44.205 --> 0:19:47.205 my friendships, in my relationship at home with my parents, 0:19:47.245 --> 0:19:50.165 and trying to earn you do things everything the right way, 0:19:50.445 --> 0:19:54.205 my relationship with God, really trying to get everything right 0:19:54.245 --> 0:19:56.325 and do the things on the checklist and make sure 0:19:56.365 --> 0:20:00.245 that I was earning my way. And it was an 0:20:00.405 --> 0:20:06.965 absolutely true observation that also in retrospect, is just such 0:20:07.005 --> 0:20:09.885 a cheap trick, because it's like going to see a 0:20:09.885 --> 0:20:12.525 psychic on a corner and they're like, oh, I'm feeling 0:20:12.605 --> 0:20:15.645 like you have a dog, but there's your jackets covered 0:20:15.645 --> 0:20:18.565 in dog hair, you know what I mean. Yeah, But 0:20:18.685 --> 0:20:20.325 you know, when you're twenty, you're like, oh my. 0:20:20.285 --> 0:20:22.845 God, I feel so sane. 0:20:23.365 --> 0:20:25.565 I was thinking so much about I want to ask 0:20:25.565 --> 0:20:28.685 about where your acting career was at this time, because 0:20:29.685 --> 0:20:33.445 the vulnerability of actors and creative people who need to 0:20:33.525 --> 0:20:37.365 audition and be rejected, and audition and be rejected and 0:20:37.445 --> 0:20:41.205 try and be rejected, and then if you get a gig, 0:20:41.605 --> 0:20:44.565 you get this massive attention, so that the whiplash of 0:20:44.605 --> 0:20:48.565 that must leave you kind of emotionally vulnerable to someone 0:20:48.605 --> 0:20:52.725 who says you're amazing, you're loved, you're the main event. 0:20:53.525 --> 0:20:54.005 It does. 0:20:54.085 --> 0:20:58.605 It definitely leaves you feeling like it well left me 0:20:58.685 --> 0:21:03.245 feeling like, see, this is what's to continue answering your question, 0:21:03.325 --> 0:21:05.805 Like this is what's so insidious about it to take 0:21:05.885 --> 0:21:09.205 something that is absolutely true. You as a human being 0:21:09.405 --> 0:21:11.805 have value. You don't have to earn it. You're not 0:21:11.965 --> 0:21:15.045 second place, you are always the first place. You're never 0:21:15.165 --> 0:21:17.725 runner up, because this is your life and your story 0:21:17.765 --> 0:21:20.565 and your relationship with the God of your understanding. All 0:21:20.645 --> 0:21:21.405 of those things. 0:21:22.045 --> 0:21:24.605 But this is what the narcissist will do. 0:21:24.685 --> 0:21:27.805 They get you into a position of vulnerability with something 0:21:27.805 --> 0:21:31.725 that is absolutely true and cracks you open and pours 0:21:31.805 --> 0:21:36.045 this love and positivity into you so that you feel 0:21:36.205 --> 0:21:38.525 attached to them and you feel a sense of loyalty 0:21:38.565 --> 0:21:41.045 to them, and then when they start saying really terrible 0:21:41.085 --> 0:21:44.085 things about you, you really believe those things as well, 0:21:44.205 --> 0:21:47.965 because obviously they can see what's really you know, in 0:21:48.005 --> 0:21:50.685 your mind, they can see what's really going on. I 0:21:50.725 --> 0:21:52.405 don't know if that exactly ends your question. 0:21:52.685 --> 0:21:56.565 No, it does. One of the things that is so 0:21:56.765 --> 0:22:02.045 endemic in abuse and cults is isolation. And yes, who 0:22:02.045 --> 0:22:07.405 did the Big Family which is what this group called itself. 0:22:07.125 --> 0:22:10.045 Right, the Big House House family? 0:22:10.885 --> 0:22:13.005 Who was in the Big House? Well, and wasn't an 0:22:13.045 --> 0:22:14.125 actual house. 0:22:13.925 --> 0:22:17.605 It was an actual house. It was in my story 0:22:17.805 --> 0:22:21.525 Pam and Ed's house. Ed was a doctor and you know, 0:22:21.645 --> 0:22:24.765 well respected in the community. So it was their house, 0:22:25.685 --> 0:22:30.485 and they, out of the goodness of their hearts, offered 0:22:30.565 --> 0:22:34.525 their home to Les and Martine who were being displaced 0:22:34.565 --> 0:22:37.805 from their pastoral home at a previous church. If you're 0:22:37.845 --> 0:22:40.925 not involved in any kind of religious community, I will 0:22:40.925 --> 0:22:43.725 give you a basic rundown, which is that when oftentimes 0:22:43.765 --> 0:22:47.645 pastors are brought in from other states and their family 0:22:47.725 --> 0:22:50.805 is given a home to live in that the church owns. 0:22:51.245 --> 0:22:54.685