1 00:00:10,405 --> 00:00:15,005 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges 2 00:00:15,045 --> 00:00:17,685 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:17,765 --> 00:00:29,605 Speaker 1: is recorded on from Mamma may I'm Maya Friedman. You're 4 00:00:29,645 --> 00:00:33,445 Speaker 1: listening to No Filter and this is an episode about 5 00:00:33,565 --> 00:00:37,245 Speaker 1: cults and Bethany Joy Lentz, who has been in two 6 00:00:37,325 --> 00:00:42,125 Speaker 1: different kinds of cults, a good cult and a really 7 00:00:42,445 --> 00:00:46,525 Speaker 1: really bad one. The good kind is the television show 8 00:00:46,525 --> 00:00:49,845 Speaker 1: One Tree Hill, where she played the iconic character Hayley 9 00:00:50,325 --> 00:00:51,445 Speaker 1: for nearly a decade. 10 00:00:51,565 --> 00:00:54,245 Speaker 2: We made our decision, we got married and were happy, 11 00:00:54,245 --> 00:00:55,885 Speaker 2: and if you're not here to celebrate with us, then. 12 00:00:55,765 --> 00:00:58,005 Speaker 3: You should just go home, because I don't want you here. 13 00:00:58,445 --> 00:01:02,365 Speaker 1: And which even today has what we would colloquially call 14 00:01:02,605 --> 00:01:05,565 Speaker 1: a cult following, because when we use that word to 15 00:01:05,565 --> 00:01:09,125 Speaker 1: talk about a TV show or a band, what we're 16 00:01:09,165 --> 00:01:13,125 Speaker 1: so is that it's captivated a particular type of very 17 00:01:13,205 --> 00:01:16,845 Speaker 1: committed audience, and that it has a devoted following, and 18 00:01:16,965 --> 00:01:19,765 Speaker 1: that it's something that's become almost a part of the 19 00:01:19,805 --> 00:01:23,405 Speaker 1: fabric of who those people are. And those are the 20 00:01:23,445 --> 00:01:27,245 Speaker 1: features of the more sinister and truer meaning of the 21 00:01:27,245 --> 00:01:32,445 Speaker 1: word cult as well. And Bethany Joy Lentz, who prefers 22 00:01:32,485 --> 00:01:34,845 Speaker 1: to go by the name Joy, was in that kind 23 00:01:34,845 --> 00:01:38,845 Speaker 1: of cult. At the same time, she was in a bad, toxic, 24 00:01:39,485 --> 00:01:44,085 Speaker 1: abusive kind of cult. The kind of cult that isolates 25 00:01:44,165 --> 00:01:48,365 Speaker 1: you from your friends and family, that controls every facet 26 00:01:48,365 --> 00:01:53,285 Speaker 1: of your life, that demands your utter loyalty and Enjoy's case, 27 00:01:53,845 --> 00:01:57,805 Speaker 1: your hard earned money millions of dollars. The kind of 28 00:01:57,845 --> 00:02:01,845 Speaker 1: cult that puts you in emotional and physical danger and 29 00:02:01,925 --> 00:02:05,565 Speaker 1: makes you too scared to ask for help, let alone 30 00:02:05,565 --> 00:02:11,685 Speaker 1: get away. But eventually, when something unthinkable and intolerable began 31 00:02:11,765 --> 00:02:16,365 Speaker 1: to happen, Joy did ask for help, and eventually she 32 00:02:16,445 --> 00:02:20,485 Speaker 1: did get out. She's written a memoir about her experience 33 00:02:20,845 --> 00:02:24,525 Speaker 1: called Dinner for Vampires. She spent a really long time 34 00:02:24,725 --> 00:02:27,605 Speaker 1: coming to terms with what happened to her, and she's 35 00:02:27,725 --> 00:02:32,805 Speaker 1: finally ready to talk about it, especially how she escaped 36 00:02:33,325 --> 00:02:38,085 Speaker 1: and recovered. It's an incredible story that was even more 37 00:02:38,125 --> 00:02:42,125 Speaker 1: incredible because it was happening under the noses of everybody 38 00:02:42,125 --> 00:02:46,525 Speaker 1: who watched and loved One Tree Hill for all those years. 39 00:02:47,045 --> 00:02:49,565 Speaker 1: Because the years that Joy was in that cult are 40 00:02:49,605 --> 00:02:53,365 Speaker 1: the same years that she was incredibly famous on one 41 00:02:53,405 --> 00:02:57,605 Speaker 1: of the most successful TV shows in the world. Here's 42 00:02:57,685 --> 00:03:01,885 Speaker 1: Joy with her story. The title of the book Dinner 43 00:03:01,925 --> 00:03:06,005 Speaker 1: for Vampires. Where did that come from? 44 00:03:06,605 --> 00:03:09,125 Speaker 2: You know, that is as much my guess as it 45 00:03:09,245 --> 00:03:12,205 Speaker 2: is yours. It flew out of my pen. I was, well, 46 00:03:12,365 --> 00:03:15,005 Speaker 2: you know, my metaphor pen meaning my keyboard. I was 47 00:03:15,125 --> 00:03:20,725 Speaker 2: typing this paragraph that was just something about how I 48 00:03:20,765 --> 00:03:22,805 Speaker 2: never could have known in that moment that I would 49 00:03:22,845 --> 00:03:27,485 Speaker 2: eventually end up becoming dinner for these vampires. And as 50 00:03:27,525 --> 00:03:30,445 Speaker 2: it came out, I went, oh, yeah, that's actually exactly 51 00:03:30,445 --> 00:03:33,325 Speaker 2: what it was. That really encompasses the book. And I 52 00:03:33,445 --> 00:03:35,685 Speaker 2: like the tone of it being a little, a little 53 00:03:35,685 --> 00:03:37,685 Speaker 2: tongue in cheek because I wanted that tone for the 54 00:03:37,685 --> 00:03:38,485 Speaker 2: book overall. 55 00:03:39,205 --> 00:03:43,685 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're the dinner and the vampires are essentially 56 00:03:43,925 --> 00:03:45,205 Speaker 1: the big House family. 57 00:03:45,885 --> 00:03:49,045 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's it's a term that's I think commonly 58 00:03:49,125 --> 00:03:50,205 Speaker 2: used for a narcissists. 59 00:03:50,725 --> 00:03:52,005 Speaker 3: That's that's what they are. 60 00:03:52,045 --> 00:03:54,885 Speaker 2: They you know, they can't they don't have an identity 61 00:03:54,885 --> 00:03:57,405 Speaker 2: of their own, so they have to suck yours out. 62 00:03:57,405 --> 00:03:59,525 Speaker 3: They have to suck the life out of you. 63 00:03:59,525 --> 00:04:05,485 Speaker 1: You quote something from the series The Vow, and you said, 64 00:04:05,685 --> 00:04:08,525 Speaker 1: nobody joins a cult, you join a good thing. Nobody 65 00:04:08,565 --> 00:04:11,245 Speaker 1: walks into a seat and says, sign me up, I 66 00:04:11,285 --> 00:04:13,285 Speaker 1: want to fuck up the rest of my life. 67 00:04:13,885 --> 00:04:18,405 Speaker 2: That's Mark Vincent Davy. Yeah, that's such a great quote. 68 00:04:18,525 --> 00:04:20,765 Speaker 1: That's the name I was looking for. Very smart man, 69 00:04:20,885 --> 00:04:24,005 Speaker 1: And I want to start with a bit about your 70 00:04:24,045 --> 00:04:27,605 Speaker 1: life before you walked into that situation. Yeah, you grew 71 00:04:27,725 --> 00:04:31,645 Speaker 1: up in Texas. When did you decide that you wanted 72 00:04:31,685 --> 00:04:32,205 Speaker 1: to be an actor? 73 00:04:32,645 --> 00:04:35,645 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I mean I didn't. I wasn't aware that 74 00:04:35,645 --> 00:04:39,205 Speaker 2: that could really be something you do as a career 75 00:04:40,005 --> 00:04:44,085 Speaker 2: until I was probably ten or eleven. I think I 76 00:04:44,125 --> 00:04:46,165 Speaker 2: started to become really more aware that, oh, this is 77 00:04:46,205 --> 00:04:48,805 Speaker 2: something people actually do with their lives. But I did 78 00:04:48,845 --> 00:04:51,845 Speaker 2: begin doing local theater when I was about seven, and 79 00:04:51,885 --> 00:04:56,005 Speaker 2: it was probably just a way of my parents being 80 00:04:56,045 --> 00:04:58,445 Speaker 2: like this, she can't sit still, she's always singing, she's 81 00:04:58,485 --> 00:05:02,805 Speaker 2: always writing songs and making up stories and just be 82 00:05:02,925 --> 00:05:06,285 Speaker 2: you know, she's got this huge imagination. And my father 83 00:05:06,525 --> 00:05:09,165 Speaker 2: was no stranger to this, having grown up with two 84 00:05:09,445 --> 00:05:10,805 Speaker 2: parents in musical theater. 85 00:05:10,965 --> 00:05:13,605 Speaker 3: I'm sure he was like, I know exactly what this is. 86 00:05:15,165 --> 00:05:17,925 Speaker 1: Is that your grandmother Doris, because she was, Yes, my 87 00:05:18,005 --> 00:05:18,725 Speaker 1: grandma Doush. 88 00:05:18,805 --> 00:05:21,285 Speaker 2: I write about in the book and the impact that 89 00:05:21,365 --> 00:05:25,085 Speaker 2: she had in my artistic life. And his father, George Lenz, 90 00:05:25,125 --> 00:05:28,085 Speaker 2: who is I mean, playbill dot com. Go check it out, 91 00:05:28,085 --> 00:05:32,805 Speaker 2: you'll see his resume. So he definitely recognized the signs. 92 00:05:32,845 --> 00:05:37,805 Speaker 2: And my mom was also really creative, and so I 93 00:05:37,845 --> 00:05:39,965 Speaker 2: think they both just went, let's just put her in 94 00:05:40,005 --> 00:05:41,765 Speaker 2: some theater and see if that helps her get her 95 00:05:41,845 --> 00:05:42,445 Speaker 2: energy out. 96 00:05:42,685 --> 00:05:45,365 Speaker 1: And it worked because you started getting jobs as a kid, 97 00:05:45,605 --> 00:05:48,365 Speaker 1: and you traveled to LA and you built up your resume. 98 00:05:48,485 --> 00:05:51,285 Speaker 1: You got some pretty big gigs alongside people like Paul 99 00:05:51,325 --> 00:05:54,525 Speaker 1: Savino and James Franco, and eventually you got a regular 100 00:05:54,605 --> 00:05:58,005 Speaker 1: role on a really big soap opera, Guiding Light. What 101 00:05:58,165 --> 00:06:01,845 Speaker 1: was it like being a teenage girl navigating Hollywood and 102 00:06:01,885 --> 00:06:05,605 Speaker 1: then back home navigating a pretty religious family and community, 103 00:06:05,645 --> 00:06:07,245 Speaker 1: which is how you grew up? 104 00:06:07,885 --> 00:06:11,765 Speaker 2: Great question, You know, I never considered New York to 105 00:06:11,845 --> 00:06:14,965 Speaker 2: be Hollywood. There was so much more serious in New 106 00:06:15,045 --> 00:06:17,125 Speaker 2: York than it was whenever I would go to LA 107 00:06:17,365 --> 00:06:21,205 Speaker 2: and go audition for pilots, you know, with the wide 108 00:06:21,285 --> 00:06:23,525 Speaker 2: roads and the sun and the palm trees and the 109 00:06:24,045 --> 00:06:28,525 Speaker 2: very sort of glamorous feeling in the air driving onto 110 00:06:28,565 --> 00:06:32,565 Speaker 2: these big studios, and so I would go and do 111 00:06:32,725 --> 00:06:36,325 Speaker 2: some of those pilots for a few weeks. But I 112 00:06:36,485 --> 00:06:38,445 Speaker 2: lived in New Jersey, and I was in New York 113 00:06:38,525 --> 00:06:40,685 Speaker 2: City for you know, three or four days out of 114 00:06:40,685 --> 00:06:42,765 Speaker 2: the week for my voice lessons and dance lessons and 115 00:06:43,165 --> 00:06:47,765 Speaker 2: auditions for films and things. So in New York, living 116 00:06:47,845 --> 00:06:50,845 Speaker 2: in that environment, I didn't feel really like I was 117 00:06:51,045 --> 00:06:55,205 Speaker 2: a part of that Hollywood experience as much as just 118 00:06:55,285 --> 00:06:58,485 Speaker 2: the very serious actory artist community in New York. 119 00:06:59,205 --> 00:07:01,965 Speaker 1: I was going to ask about how the church reacted 120 00:07:02,005 --> 00:07:05,685 Speaker 1: because as soap opera, you know, apart from the idea 121 00:07:05,765 --> 00:07:09,165 Speaker 1: of show business, the content on the soap opera itself, 122 00:07:09,445 --> 00:07:13,445 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not raunchy, but you know, soaps on 123 00:07:13,805 --> 00:07:15,765 Speaker 1: are they godly? I don't know how. 124 00:07:17,245 --> 00:07:19,365 Speaker 2: Well. The community I was a part of at the 125 00:07:19,365 --> 00:07:21,925 Speaker 2: time certainly didn't think. So. I was a part of 126 00:07:21,965 --> 00:07:26,085 Speaker 2: the worship team, which is just the people who sing 127 00:07:26,165 --> 00:07:28,245 Speaker 2: music on stage when you go to a church where 128 00:07:28,245 --> 00:07:31,205 Speaker 2: they have music. Some churches do choirs and some have 129 00:07:31,285 --> 00:07:34,525 Speaker 2: a band on stage, and ours was kind of the band, 130 00:07:34,605 --> 00:07:36,085 Speaker 2: and it was called the worship team, and I was 131 00:07:36,085 --> 00:07:39,085 Speaker 2: on it, and they asked me to step down after 132 00:07:39,125 --> 00:07:41,525 Speaker 2: I got this job on a soap opera, which was 133 00:07:41,565 --> 00:07:46,205 Speaker 2: so confusing to me because to your original question, navigating 134 00:07:46,445 --> 00:07:52,005 Speaker 2: this spiritual life and also navigating being in the entertainment 135 00:07:52,045 --> 00:07:59,325 Speaker 2: industry was never terribly conflicting for me because to me, 136 00:07:59,805 --> 00:08:01,925 Speaker 2: like I was raised on the Bible, Like, how do 137 00:08:01,965 --> 00:08:05,165 Speaker 2: you get better bigger stories than the Bible? And I'm 138 00:08:05,205 --> 00:08:08,485 Speaker 2: a storyteller, so it went hand in hand to me. 139 00:08:08,605 --> 00:08:10,285 Speaker 2: I was just like, yeah, we're just making art, we're 140 00:08:10,325 --> 00:08:13,525 Speaker 2: telling stories, and I mean, you want to talk about 141 00:08:13,565 --> 00:08:16,525 Speaker 2: some really racy stuff, Like I could direct you to 142 00:08:16,565 --> 00:08:18,325 Speaker 2: several books in the Bible and have a lot. 143 00:08:18,205 --> 00:08:21,925 Speaker 3: Of really controversial things in them. So it just was 144 00:08:22,005 --> 00:08:23,005 Speaker 3: not on my radar. 145 00:08:23,125 --> 00:08:26,005 Speaker 2: And I was really surprised when I started to get 146 00:08:26,085 --> 00:08:31,325 Speaker 2: older and realized that a lot of people didn't view art. 147 00:08:32,005 --> 00:08:33,325 Speaker 3: In the same way that I did. 148 00:08:33,365 --> 00:08:36,685 Speaker 2: They felt like it was a very anti god, anti 149 00:08:36,765 --> 00:08:40,445 Speaker 2: religious thing, and I'm still baffled by that. 150 00:08:40,445 --> 00:08:43,685 Speaker 1: That contradiction must have been sort of hard to navigate. 151 00:08:43,725 --> 00:08:47,925 Speaker 1: And what's interesting to me is how you describe sort 152 00:08:47,925 --> 00:08:50,525 Speaker 1: of living at different times. You live alone in New 153 00:08:50,605 --> 00:08:54,285 Speaker 1: York and then eventually you moved to La. Your faith 154 00:08:54,325 --> 00:08:57,005 Speaker 1: remains really important to you and you always seek out 155 00:08:57,485 --> 00:09:01,765 Speaker 1: those subcultures of you know, artists who are also Christian. 156 00:09:02,325 --> 00:09:04,765 Speaker 1: So it wasn't just you that was feeling that contradiction. 157 00:09:05,325 --> 00:09:07,405 Speaker 2: And the thing is it didn't feel like a contradiction 158 00:09:07,565 --> 00:09:10,245 Speaker 2: to us. It seemed to be that way to so 159 00:09:10,325 --> 00:09:13,925 Speaker 2: many other people in the religious communities that we were in, 160 00:09:14,045 --> 00:09:16,485 Speaker 2: which was confusing. But yeah, so we would really seek 161 00:09:16,525 --> 00:09:19,005 Speaker 2: each other out, like, where are the other storytellers in 162 00:09:19,045 --> 00:09:22,285 Speaker 2: the world who believe in God, who have a sense 163 00:09:22,445 --> 00:09:27,645 Speaker 2: of morality? And that looks a specific way, I guess 164 00:09:27,765 --> 00:09:30,245 Speaker 2: is what I felt when I was young, and I 165 00:09:30,285 --> 00:09:34,085 Speaker 2: wanted to be surrounded by like minded people, as anyone 166 00:09:34,725 --> 00:09:37,845 Speaker 2: with any set of beliefs I think looks for you 167 00:09:38,005 --> 00:09:40,445 Speaker 2: want to have people around you that support what you 168 00:09:40,525 --> 00:09:43,565 Speaker 2: believe and who can encourage you when you're feeling down 169 00:09:43,565 --> 00:09:45,285 Speaker 2: and things like that. So it seemed like a very 170 00:09:45,365 --> 00:09:46,765 Speaker 2: natural thing to look for. 171 00:09:47,365 --> 00:09:50,285 Speaker 1: You talk about floating around a little bit, but finding 172 00:09:50,325 --> 00:09:54,005 Speaker 1: your community. And then the night everything changed. What happened 173 00:09:54,005 --> 00:09:54,725 Speaker 1: on that night. 174 00:09:55,205 --> 00:09:58,645 Speaker 2: I yeah, so I had found this really lovely group 175 00:09:58,685 --> 00:10:02,725 Speaker 2: of people through my roommate in LA I was feeling sorry. 176 00:10:02,525 --> 00:10:04,805 Speaker 3: If you guys hear my dog's park sometimes I loved them. 177 00:10:06,645 --> 00:10:09,165 Speaker 2: I had moved to LA I was feeling really lonely. 178 00:10:09,325 --> 00:10:13,045 Speaker 2: I missed my New York community, and my roommate invited 179 00:10:13,085 --> 00:10:14,765 Speaker 2: me to come to a Bible study that she was 180 00:10:14,805 --> 00:10:19,245 Speaker 2: a part of with other young artists and entertainment industry professionals, 181 00:10:20,045 --> 00:10:23,045 Speaker 2: and we all just became really good friends and got 182 00:10:23,085 --> 00:10:25,165 Speaker 2: to know each other very well. It was an easy 183 00:10:25,205 --> 00:10:29,165 Speaker 2: community to slip into, and there wasn't anything that gave 184 00:10:29,165 --> 00:10:33,325 Speaker 2: me red flags. In fact, I didn't write about this 185 00:10:33,365 --> 00:10:35,325 Speaker 2: in the book, but I remember once when I was 186 00:10:35,925 --> 00:10:40,285 Speaker 2: probably around the age of twelve, my parents took us 187 00:10:40,285 --> 00:10:42,485 Speaker 2: that we were visiting churches, and my parents took me 188 00:10:42,605 --> 00:10:45,725 Speaker 2: to this one church. We started going for like three months, 189 00:10:45,725 --> 00:10:47,685 Speaker 2: and I just loved it. I was so close, it 190 00:10:47,725 --> 00:10:49,365 Speaker 2: was artists, it was all this great thing. And then 191 00:10:49,485 --> 00:10:53,045 Speaker 2: one day my dad said, we're not going there anymore. 192 00:10:53,325 --> 00:10:54,365 Speaker 3: After a church service. 193 00:10:54,365 --> 00:10:56,325 Speaker 2: He came and picked me up after the Sunday school 194 00:10:56,365 --> 00:10:58,485 Speaker 2: youth group thing, and I said, why he goes it's 195 00:10:58,485 --> 00:11:01,765 Speaker 2: a cult. It's like, what are you talking about, Dad, 196 00:11:02,085 --> 00:11:04,485 Speaker 2: And he was like, no, no, it's a cult. 197 00:11:04,525 --> 00:11:04,965 Speaker 3: We got to go. 198 00:11:05,125 --> 00:11:07,445 Speaker 2: This is not right, and I was devastated. I missed 199 00:11:07,485 --> 00:11:10,645 Speaker 2: this group of friends that I had built. So it's funny, 200 00:11:10,685 --> 00:11:12,965 Speaker 2: how you know, it can take a while to notice 201 00:11:12,965 --> 00:11:16,645 Speaker 2: things sometimes. And it felt really benign, and I think 202 00:11:16,645 --> 00:11:19,005 Speaker 2: it was. But then two of the young men who 203 00:11:19,085 --> 00:11:22,605 Speaker 2: were running the group, and they had invited a pastor 204 00:11:22,925 --> 00:11:26,845 Speaker 2: from another state to come down and speak to the group, 205 00:11:27,885 --> 00:11:30,445 Speaker 2: and he himself had been going through a hard time 206 00:11:31,125 --> 00:11:34,125 Speaker 2: leaving the church that he had previously been associated with, 207 00:11:35,005 --> 00:11:38,765 Speaker 2: And we were so young, and we felt really empathetic 208 00:11:38,845 --> 00:11:42,525 Speaker 2: toward him and his family and wanted to greet him 209 00:11:42,525 --> 00:11:46,005 Speaker 2: with open arms, and we were happy to have a real, older, 210 00:11:46,165 --> 00:11:49,485 Speaker 2: actual pastor in our midst and wanted to listen for 211 00:11:49,565 --> 00:11:52,845 Speaker 2: his wisdom. I mean, it was just a perfect storm. 212 00:11:52,965 --> 00:11:55,045 Speaker 2: I think he looked around and saw a bunch of 213 00:11:55,125 --> 00:11:59,165 Speaker 2: young entertainment professionals and got dollar signs in his eyes 214 00:11:59,205 --> 00:12:02,205 Speaker 2: and went, oh, I know what I can do here. 215 00:12:02,605 --> 00:12:03,805 Speaker 2: But we were none the wiser. 216 00:12:03,845 --> 00:12:06,685 Speaker 1: Of course, there's a sort of cost of characters who 217 00:12:06,725 --> 00:12:10,445 Speaker 1: went to your life at this point. Can you set 218 00:12:10,485 --> 00:12:14,245 Speaker 1: the stage a little bit and explain who Les and 219 00:12:14,325 --> 00:12:17,045 Speaker 1: Martin and Ed and pam Ah. 220 00:12:17,165 --> 00:12:20,685 Speaker 2: Yes, So in the book I start to explain when 221 00:12:20,725 --> 00:12:24,325 Speaker 2: I meet this pastor whose name is Les and his 222 00:12:24,365 --> 00:12:30,325 Speaker 2: wife is Martin. He's got three sons, He's got good 223 00:12:30,405 --> 00:12:35,125 Speaker 2: friends who he's met through these younger gentlemen in the group. 224 00:12:36,005 --> 00:12:39,645 Speaker 2: Their parents are from the same state where the pastor 225 00:12:39,725 --> 00:12:43,605 Speaker 2: is from. Less and that's Ed and Pam. 226 00:12:44,085 --> 00:12:45,005 Speaker 3: They all have this. 227 00:12:45,085 --> 00:12:48,605 Speaker 2: History in Seventh day Adventism, which I really knew nothing about. 228 00:12:48,685 --> 00:12:52,525 Speaker 2: It was not I was always raised in the non 229 00:12:52,525 --> 00:12:57,365 Speaker 2: denominational charismatic Christian Church and didn't know anything really about 230 00:12:57,405 --> 00:13:02,245 Speaker 2: the other denominations, and so it was interesting. I was curious. 231 00:13:02,285 --> 00:13:05,805 Speaker 2: I wanted to know more about their history and why 232 00:13:05,845 --> 00:13:11,085 Speaker 2: they had grown disaffected with their branch of Christianity. You know, 233 00:13:11,125 --> 00:13:15,005 Speaker 2: I just felt like a nice community to be a 234 00:13:15,045 --> 00:13:17,725 Speaker 2: part of when I didn't have my parents around or 235 00:13:17,925 --> 00:13:20,325 Speaker 2: any of my friends from the East coast. 236 00:13:21,085 --> 00:13:26,165 Speaker 1: You refer to Less and Pam even though they weren't 237 00:13:26,205 --> 00:13:29,205 Speaker 1: a couple, that they sort of become your spiritual parents. 238 00:13:29,645 --> 00:13:33,765 Speaker 1: Is that how you felt being away from your own family. 239 00:13:34,325 --> 00:13:34,765 Speaker 3: Yeah. 240 00:13:35,485 --> 00:13:41,085 Speaker 2: I think anytime we're longing for pieces of community that 241 00:13:41,165 --> 00:13:44,605 Speaker 2: are not there's like gaps in our in our heart 242 00:13:44,685 --> 00:13:46,325 Speaker 2: for different people in community. 243 00:13:46,925 --> 00:13:47,805 Speaker 3: We seek that out. 244 00:13:48,085 --> 00:13:52,285 Speaker 2: And I grew up as an only child. There was 245 00:13:52,325 --> 00:13:56,445 Speaker 2: a lot of tempestuousness in the air in my home 246 00:13:56,525 --> 00:13:59,805 Speaker 2: with my parents and what they were going through among themselves, 247 00:14:00,085 --> 00:14:03,205 Speaker 2: and I just really wanted to feel like I was 248 00:14:03,205 --> 00:14:06,285 Speaker 2: a part of a family, like a real family, and 249 00:14:06,405 --> 00:14:13,005 Speaker 2: so less was this you know, sort of jovial, sweet, funny, 250 00:14:13,365 --> 00:14:19,285 Speaker 2: irreverend character who was very warm in a way that 251 00:14:19,685 --> 00:14:22,725 Speaker 2: my father I think is really deep down he's a 252 00:14:22,725 --> 00:14:26,005 Speaker 2: big puppy dog, but he's got a harder exterior. And 253 00:14:26,085 --> 00:14:31,965 Speaker 2: I was craving that open, masculine, warm energy that I 254 00:14:31,965 --> 00:14:36,245 Speaker 2: didn't receive a lot of as a child. And Pam 255 00:14:37,445 --> 00:14:43,325 Speaker 2: came in with the same type of motherly, gentle kind, sweet, 256 00:14:43,445 --> 00:14:49,485 Speaker 2: soft spoken, good listener, really encouraging and all these things 257 00:14:49,525 --> 00:14:53,565 Speaker 2: that I also believe my mother feels underneath her exterior. 258 00:14:54,085 --> 00:14:56,485 Speaker 2: But I you know, as a child, we only see 259 00:14:56,485 --> 00:15:00,205 Speaker 2: what we see, and so without understanding the complexity of 260 00:15:00,245 --> 00:15:03,205 Speaker 2: who people are and how we develop and what's really 261 00:15:03,205 --> 00:15:06,925 Speaker 2: going on behind the surface, it's hard to see those things. 262 00:15:06,965 --> 00:15:09,085 Speaker 2: And you know, again I was young, so I just 263 00:15:09,165 --> 00:15:15,005 Speaker 2: was like, oh, warm, open dad figure, gentle kind, encouraging 264 00:15:15,045 --> 00:15:17,485 Speaker 2: mother figure, this is what I need in my life. 265 00:15:17,725 --> 00:15:21,045 Speaker 2: And I adopted them as much as they adopted me metaphorically. 266 00:15:21,885 --> 00:15:25,965 Speaker 1: I want to understand how you know it seems so inocuous. 267 00:15:26,005 --> 00:15:28,445 Speaker 1: It's you go to a Bible study group, there's this 268 00:15:28,525 --> 00:15:34,045 Speaker 1: guest speaker. One night, you're auditioning, you're getting roles, You're 269 00:15:34,085 --> 00:15:37,325 Speaker 1: twenty two years old, living in la How does it 270 00:15:37,485 --> 00:15:41,165 Speaker 1: escalate like in the actual the next week? Do you 271 00:15:41,245 --> 00:15:44,965 Speaker 1: go again? And then how do things get to get 272 00:15:45,205 --> 00:15:47,765 Speaker 1: to the point, yeah, where you start coming. I imagine 273 00:15:47,765 --> 00:15:49,765 Speaker 1: it's like frog and boiling water. Right, it doesn't start 274 00:15:49,805 --> 00:15:50,405 Speaker 1: out boiling. 275 00:15:50,885 --> 00:15:53,525 Speaker 2: That's absolutely what it is. It's the frog and boiling water. 276 00:15:53,725 --> 00:15:56,725 Speaker 2: It happens so slowly and so many of the things 277 00:15:57,045 --> 00:16:01,885 Speaker 2: are innocuous and look totally fine. And that's how That's 278 00:16:01,925 --> 00:16:05,045 Speaker 2: how narcissists get you, whether it's in a group dynamic 279 00:16:05,165 --> 00:16:08,885 Speaker 2: or whether it's in an individual personal relationship dynamic. There's 280 00:16:08,885 --> 00:16:12,925 Speaker 2: this love bombing phase where everything seems great and there's 281 00:16:13,005 --> 00:16:15,645 Speaker 2: only a couple of red flags like here and there, 282 00:16:15,685 --> 00:16:20,325 Speaker 2: but the good far outweighs the bad, or the things 283 00:16:20,365 --> 00:16:23,045 Speaker 2: that make sense far outweigh the couple of things that 284 00:16:23,085 --> 00:16:25,645 Speaker 2: you're like, I don't know about that, but I guess 285 00:16:25,685 --> 00:16:26,725 Speaker 2: everything else makes sense. 286 00:16:26,805 --> 00:16:28,645 Speaker 3: So I'm sure, it's fine. It must be me. 287 00:16:28,885 --> 00:16:32,765 Speaker 2: I'm so young, I'm so naive, they're so wise. I 288 00:16:32,845 --> 00:16:37,125 Speaker 2: really should just like listen and learn and trust, which 289 00:16:37,165 --> 00:16:39,765 Speaker 2: is a beautiful place to be and for anyone to 290 00:16:39,805 --> 00:16:42,605 Speaker 2: be curious and to be trusting people around you and 291 00:16:42,645 --> 00:16:47,085 Speaker 2: to be interested in people who are who have been 292 00:16:47,125 --> 00:16:49,525 Speaker 2: through different things in life, Like I think that's an 293 00:16:49,565 --> 00:16:52,805 Speaker 2: admirable quality. But of course when you're so young, it's 294 00:16:52,845 --> 00:16:54,685 Speaker 2: easy to be taking advantage of when you're in that 295 00:16:54,765 --> 00:16:59,285 Speaker 2: place as well. So I mean, really, to answer your question, 296 00:16:59,325 --> 00:17:02,645 Speaker 2: the whole book is that story, and why I wanted 297 00:17:02,685 --> 00:17:05,245 Speaker 2: to tell it that way was so that people could 298 00:17:05,325 --> 00:17:10,005 Speaker 2: see how slow and insidious it is a long time. 299 00:17:10,205 --> 00:17:14,205 Speaker 2: It's a slow burn, and you've got to be able 300 00:17:14,245 --> 00:17:17,805 Speaker 2: to start to trust your instinct pretty early on if 301 00:17:17,805 --> 00:17:20,685 Speaker 2: you're not going to get sucked into something. Yeah, you 302 00:17:20,725 --> 00:17:24,165 Speaker 2: know that's that's got a narcissistic abuse agenda behind it. 303 00:17:29,165 --> 00:17:32,005 Speaker 1: More of my conversation with Joy after this short break, 304 00:17:36,045 --> 00:17:38,565 Speaker 1: you talk about some words that Less said to you 305 00:17:38,925 --> 00:17:41,805 Speaker 1: that sort of hooked you. He said, Joy, it's time 306 00:17:41,845 --> 00:17:43,965 Speaker 1: for you to come out of agreement with the idea 307 00:17:44,005 --> 00:17:47,005 Speaker 1: that you'll runner up and release the spirit of performance 308 00:17:47,045 --> 00:17:51,725 Speaker 1: for love. Why did those words hit so hard for you? 309 00:17:52,645 --> 00:17:56,605 Speaker 2: I was a needy kid, emotionally really needy kid. I 310 00:17:57,125 --> 00:18:00,605 Speaker 2: just wanted to be I wanted to feel safe and loved, 311 00:18:00,685 --> 00:18:03,445 Speaker 2: and I think that could That's something so many people 312 00:18:03,485 --> 00:18:06,485 Speaker 2: can relate to, being a child in a home where 313 00:18:07,805 --> 00:18:11,045 Speaker 2: there are loving parents who have a lot of their 314 00:18:11,045 --> 00:18:14,245 Speaker 2: own complications going on. Parents had me when they were 315 00:18:14,245 --> 00:18:17,725 Speaker 2: twenty two years old. I mean, and they came from 316 00:18:17,805 --> 00:18:22,125 Speaker 2: broken homes. They came from homes with addiction and patterns 317 00:18:22,205 --> 00:18:27,565 Speaker 2: of behavioral abuse and patterns of fear, and I mean 318 00:18:27,565 --> 00:18:31,045 Speaker 2: there's just so much that they were carrying in and 319 00:18:31,085 --> 00:18:33,245 Speaker 2: then trying to raise a little girl with no money 320 00:18:33,565 --> 00:18:36,965 Speaker 2: and you know, bouncing around from job to job and 321 00:18:37,005 --> 00:18:40,405 Speaker 2: doing their best. I mean, how difficult must that have 322 00:18:40,485 --> 00:18:46,725 Speaker 2: been for them? And I adopted very early on the 323 00:18:47,325 --> 00:18:49,845 Speaker 2: I've got me Like you guys clearly have a lot 324 00:18:49,885 --> 00:18:52,885 Speaker 2: going on. Don't worry about me. I'll stay out of 325 00:18:52,885 --> 00:18:56,285 Speaker 2: the way. I don't want to take up space and 326 00:18:56,325 --> 00:18:57,845 Speaker 2: the one but of course I did want to take 327 00:18:57,885 --> 00:19:00,685 Speaker 2: up space, because everyone inherently deserves to take up space 328 00:19:00,685 --> 00:19:03,285 Speaker 2: on the planet. So you know, you're never going to 329 00:19:03,285 --> 00:19:05,045 Speaker 2: get away from that. And so the way that I 330 00:19:05,085 --> 00:19:07,525 Speaker 2: found to take up space was on stage, which is, 331 00:19:07,845 --> 00:19:09,605 Speaker 2: you know, just put me on a stage. I can 332 00:19:09,645 --> 00:19:12,085 Speaker 2: take up all the space on an entire stage. Just 333 00:19:12,125 --> 00:19:14,965 Speaker 2: put me there on a spotlight and we'll be golden and. 334 00:19:16,485 --> 00:19:16,725 Speaker 1: Yes. 335 00:19:16,845 --> 00:19:18,965 Speaker 2: And that's so I felt so free and I felt 336 00:19:19,005 --> 00:19:21,965 Speaker 2: so like, oh, that's my identity is here. But you 337 00:19:21,965 --> 00:19:23,565 Speaker 2: have to work hard and you have to prove it. 338 00:19:23,605 --> 00:19:25,925 Speaker 2: And if you make a joke and the audience doesn't laugh, 339 00:19:26,525 --> 00:19:28,565 Speaker 2: you're failing at taking. 340 00:19:28,325 --> 00:19:30,085 Speaker 3: Up the space properly. 341 00:19:30,165 --> 00:19:31,805 Speaker 2: You feel like you don't deserve to take up that 342 00:19:31,845 --> 00:19:34,845 Speaker 2: space because you're not doing a good enough job. And 343 00:19:34,925 --> 00:19:39,325 Speaker 2: so that mindset then carried for me into so many 344 00:19:39,365 --> 00:19:44,205 Speaker 2: realms beyond entertainment, but just in my relationships at school, 345 00:19:44,205 --> 00:19:47,205 Speaker 2: my friendships, in my relationship at home with my parents, 346 00:19:47,245 --> 00:19:50,165 Speaker 2: and trying to earn you do things everything the right way, 347 00:19:50,445 --> 00:19:54,205 Speaker 2: my relationship with God, really trying to get everything right 348 00:19:54,245 --> 00:19:56,325 Speaker 2: and do the things on the checklist and make sure 349 00:19:56,365 --> 00:20:00,245 Speaker 2: that I was earning my way. And it was an 350 00:20:00,405 --> 00:20:06,965 Speaker 2: absolutely true observation that also in retrospect, is just such 351 00:20:07,005 --> 00:20:09,885 Speaker 2: a cheap trick, because it's like going to see a 352 00:20:09,885 --> 00:20:12,525 Speaker 2: psychic on a corner and they're like, oh, I'm feeling 353 00:20:12,605 --> 00:20:15,645 Speaker 2: like you have a dog, but there's your jackets covered 354 00:20:15,645 --> 00:20:18,565 Speaker 2: in dog hair, you know what I mean. Yeah, But 355 00:20:18,685 --> 00:20:20,325 Speaker 2: you know, when you're twenty, you're like, oh my. 356 00:20:20,285 --> 00:20:22,845 Speaker 3: God, I feel so sane. 357 00:20:23,365 --> 00:20:25,565 Speaker 1: I was thinking so much about I want to ask 358 00:20:25,565 --> 00:20:28,685 Speaker 1: about where your acting career was at this time, because 359 00:20:29,685 --> 00:20:33,445 Speaker 1: the vulnerability of actors and creative people who need to 360 00:20:33,525 --> 00:20:37,365 Speaker 1: audition and be rejected, and audition and be rejected and 361 00:20:37,445 --> 00:20:41,205 Speaker 1: try and be rejected, and then if you get a gig, 362 00:20:41,605 --> 00:20:44,565 Speaker 1: you get this massive attention, so that the whiplash of 363 00:20:44,605 --> 00:20:48,565 Speaker 1: that must leave you kind of emotionally vulnerable to someone 364 00:20:48,605 --> 00:20:52,725 Speaker 1: who says you're amazing, you're loved, you're the main event. 365 00:20:53,525 --> 00:20:54,005 Speaker 3: It does. 366 00:20:54,085 --> 00:20:58,605 Speaker 2: It definitely leaves you feeling like it well left me 367 00:20:58,685 --> 00:21:03,245 Speaker 2: feeling like, see, this is what's to continue answering your question, 368 00:21:03,325 --> 00:21:05,805 Speaker 2: Like this is what's so insidious about it to take 369 00:21:05,885 --> 00:21:09,205 Speaker 2: something that is absolutely true. You as a human being 370 00:21:09,405 --> 00:21:11,805 Speaker 2: have value. You don't have to earn it. You're not 371 00:21:11,965 --> 00:21:15,045 Speaker 2: second place, you are always the first place. You're never 372 00:21:15,165 --> 00:21:17,725 Speaker 2: runner up, because this is your life and your story 373 00:21:17,765 --> 00:21:20,565 Speaker 2: and your relationship with the God of your understanding. All 374 00:21:20,645 --> 00:21:21,405 Speaker 2: of those things. 375 00:21:22,045 --> 00:21:24,605 Speaker 3: But this is what the narcissist will do. 376 00:21:24,685 --> 00:21:27,805 Speaker 2: They get you into a position of vulnerability with something 377 00:21:27,805 --> 00:21:31,725 Speaker 2: that is absolutely true and cracks you open and pours 378 00:21:31,805 --> 00:21:36,045 Speaker 2: this love and positivity into you so that you feel 379 00:21:36,205 --> 00:21:38,525 Speaker 2: attached to them and you feel a sense of loyalty 380 00:21:38,565 --> 00:21:41,045 Speaker 2: to them, and then when they start saying really terrible 381 00:21:41,085 --> 00:21:44,085 Speaker 2: things about you, you really believe those things as well, 382 00:21:44,205 --> 00:21:47,965 Speaker 2: because obviously they can see what's really you know, in 383 00:21:48,005 --> 00:21:50,685 Speaker 2: your mind, they can see what's really going on. I 384 00:21:50,725 --> 00:21:52,405 Speaker 2: don't know if that exactly ends your question. 385 00:21:52,685 --> 00:21:56,565 Speaker 1: No, it does. One of the things that is so 386 00:21:56,765 --> 00:22:02,045 Speaker 1: endemic in abuse and cults is isolation. And yes, who 387 00:22:02,045 --> 00:22:07,405 Speaker 1: did the Big Family which is what this group called itself. 388 00:22:07,125 --> 00:22:10,045 Speaker 3: Right, the Big House House family? 389 00:22:10,885 --> 00:22:13,005 Speaker 1: Who was in the Big House? Well, and wasn't an 390 00:22:13,045 --> 00:22:14,125 Speaker 1: actual house. 391 00:22:13,925 --> 00:22:17,605 Speaker 2: It was an actual house. It was in my story 392 00:22:17,805 --> 00:22:21,525 Speaker 2: Pam and Ed's house. Ed was a doctor and you know, 393 00:22:21,645 --> 00:22:24,765 Speaker 2: well respected in the community. So it was their house, 394 00:22:25,685 --> 00:22:30,485 Speaker 2: and they, out of the goodness of their hearts, offered 395 00:22:30,565 --> 00:22:34,525 Speaker 2: their home to Les and Martine who were being displaced 396 00:22:34,565 --> 00:22:37,805 Speaker 2: from their pastoral home at a previous church. If you're 397 00:22:37,845 --> 00:22:40,925 Speaker 2: not involved in any kind of religious community, I will 398 00:22:40,925 --> 00:22:43,725 Speaker 2: give you a basic rundown, which is that when oftentimes 399 00:22:43,765 --> 00:22:47,645 Speaker 2: pastors are brought in from other states and their family 400 00:22:47,725 --> 00:22:50,805 Speaker 2: is given a home to live in that the church owns. 401 00:22:51,245 --> 00:22:54,685 Speaker 2: So it was some sort of a little mental gymnastics 402 00:22:54,685 --> 00:22:56,765 Speaker 2: because there was no actual church. We didn't have an 403 00:22:56,765 --> 00:22:58,845 Speaker 2: actual five oh one c three, we didn't have any 404 00:22:58,925 --> 00:23:02,765 Speaker 2: kind of service times that's a central meeting place, none 405 00:23:02,765 --> 00:23:06,685 Speaker 2: of those things that qualified as a church. But because 406 00:23:06,725 --> 00:23:10,965 Speaker 2: he was a pastor, and because Pam and Ed had 407 00:23:11,085 --> 00:23:13,405 Speaker 2: this home that their kids had left, and it was 408 00:23:13,405 --> 00:23:15,285 Speaker 2: this great, big house, and they just said, well, we're 409 00:23:15,325 --> 00:23:17,365 Speaker 2: going to move into a smaller We'll move into the 410 00:23:17,365 --> 00:23:19,845 Speaker 2: garage and convert it into an apartment and you can 411 00:23:19,885 --> 00:23:22,365 Speaker 2: take our home and this will be like your pastoral 412 00:23:22,925 --> 00:23:26,805 Speaker 2: home as it were. So again, mental gymnastics, but I'm 413 00:23:26,845 --> 00:23:28,645 Speaker 2: sure he convinced them to do it on some level. 414 00:23:28,645 --> 00:23:30,205 Speaker 2: I was not a part of that conversation, so I 415 00:23:30,245 --> 00:23:33,085 Speaker 2: can't say for sure. But living in the big house 416 00:23:33,445 --> 00:23:38,485 Speaker 2: was in the garage we had Pam and Ed, and 417 00:23:38,525 --> 00:23:43,005 Speaker 2: then in the big house itself there was Less and Martine, 418 00:23:43,045 --> 00:23:50,325 Speaker 2: their three boys. There were three girls, me Jasmine and Gretchen, 419 00:23:51,045 --> 00:23:54,005 Speaker 2: and then in the basement there was another family of 420 00:23:54,085 --> 00:23:58,565 Speaker 2: people who knew Less and Pam, and that was Kurt 421 00:23:58,605 --> 00:24:01,205 Speaker 2: and his wife Lucy and their son Brandon, And so 422 00:24:01,245 --> 00:24:03,885 Speaker 2: it was just like a little commune and then neighboring 423 00:24:04,125 --> 00:24:06,605 Speaker 2: we had several other people who were a part of 424 00:24:06,605 --> 00:24:09,325 Speaker 2: the group that all lived in homes within you know, 425 00:24:09,525 --> 00:24:10,445 Speaker 2: to mile radius. 426 00:24:11,485 --> 00:24:13,205 Speaker 1: Who did they teach that the enemy were? 427 00:24:13,765 --> 00:24:17,765 Speaker 2: The enemy is a very common term in Christian circles 428 00:24:18,005 --> 00:24:19,685 Speaker 2: to refer to Satan or the devil. 429 00:24:20,245 --> 00:24:22,885 Speaker 3: So that was the explicit. 430 00:24:22,845 --> 00:24:30,925 Speaker 2: Verbiage used around a dark spiritual enemy, the implicit youth 431 00:24:31,685 --> 00:24:33,925 Speaker 2: or well, I guess, how do I explain this? The 432 00:24:34,085 --> 00:24:37,845 Speaker 2: enemy was really anyone who just disagreed with the group 433 00:24:37,925 --> 00:24:41,245 Speaker 2: any less, anyone who disagreed with Less, anyone who had 434 00:24:41,325 --> 00:24:46,165 Speaker 2: questions about the group. But that was never flat out said, 435 00:24:46,325 --> 00:24:49,125 Speaker 2: because that sounds too crazy, Like you would hear that 436 00:24:49,245 --> 00:24:53,285 Speaker 2: and be like, well, you can't call my mom the enemy, 437 00:24:53,805 --> 00:24:57,685 Speaker 2: but you could say the enemies attacking her working through her. 438 00:24:58,285 --> 00:25:01,165 Speaker 2: You know, pray for your mom because she doesn't know that, 439 00:25:01,485 --> 00:25:03,725 Speaker 2: you know, the enemy's really attacking her right now. 440 00:25:04,485 --> 00:25:07,525 Speaker 1: So in scientology they call them suppressive persons. 441 00:25:07,845 --> 00:25:08,805 Speaker 3: Uh huh, exactly. 442 00:25:08,805 --> 00:25:13,165 Speaker 1: It's kind of anyone who threatens or challenges the ideology. 443 00:25:13,285 --> 00:25:16,645 Speaker 1: And your parents, who were divorced by this point and 444 00:25:16,925 --> 00:25:22,445 Speaker 1: are very religious themselves. I was suspicious of this whole situation. 445 00:25:22,645 --> 00:25:25,085 Speaker 1: What were the early red flags for them? 446 00:25:25,325 --> 00:25:28,885 Speaker 2: Well, as I said, my dad was onto it. He 447 00:25:28,925 --> 00:25:34,205 Speaker 2: was onto it pretty early. I think my mom was too. 448 00:25:34,285 --> 00:25:38,365 Speaker 2: I think she was more concerned just that I wasn't 449 00:25:38,965 --> 00:25:41,845 Speaker 2: visiting her as much. I had moved to California and 450 00:25:42,045 --> 00:25:43,885 Speaker 2: we were on the same coast again, and I wasn't 451 00:25:43,965 --> 00:25:46,885 Speaker 2: visiting as much. And I really thought of that more 452 00:25:46,885 --> 00:25:51,885 Speaker 2: as just natural independence from a parent at a young age. 453 00:25:51,965 --> 00:25:54,245 Speaker 3: But I think my dad just saw the signs. 454 00:25:54,285 --> 00:25:57,405 Speaker 2: He was hearing me talk about things like I write 455 00:25:57,405 --> 00:25:59,405 Speaker 2: about in the book. This conversation my dad and I 456 00:25:59,485 --> 00:26:03,325 Speaker 2: had where I was trying to explain to him how 457 00:26:03,485 --> 00:26:05,885 Speaker 2: I was asking God, like what should I wear today, 458 00:26:06,525 --> 00:26:08,685 Speaker 2: you know, just any little thing. 459 00:26:09,085 --> 00:26:09,605 Speaker 3: I thought. 460 00:26:09,645 --> 00:26:12,365 Speaker 2: I was being really humble and open and just like 461 00:26:12,685 --> 00:26:14,365 Speaker 2: I just want God, I just want you to tell 462 00:26:14,405 --> 00:26:17,085 Speaker 2: me what to do in every area of my life. Ever, 463 00:26:17,565 --> 00:26:20,805 Speaker 2: and my Dad's like, God gave you a brain, like 464 00:26:21,205 --> 00:26:23,725 Speaker 2: you're supposed to be using your brain. 465 00:26:25,405 --> 00:26:28,285 Speaker 3: This is not just you just wait and see. 466 00:26:28,325 --> 00:26:30,205 Speaker 2: And so and then how can you tell that God 467 00:26:30,325 --> 00:26:32,205 Speaker 2: is speaking to you? I mean, that's quite a thing 468 00:26:32,285 --> 00:26:35,165 Speaker 2: to clean. Yeah, God's speaking to you, like, that's a 469 00:26:35,325 --> 00:26:38,045 Speaker 2: very serious thing to clean, I think, and my dad 470 00:26:38,085 --> 00:26:41,205 Speaker 2: thought so too, But at the time I didn't. I 471 00:26:41,245 --> 00:26:43,805 Speaker 2: just thought it was very sort of whimsical and fun. 472 00:26:44,685 --> 00:26:45,605 Speaker 2: But yeah, they caught on. 473 00:26:47,645 --> 00:26:51,605 Speaker 1: In this exchange that Joy tells from the audiobook version 474 00:26:51,685 --> 00:26:55,525 Speaker 1: of her memoir, she illustrates the dangerous gender ideology that 475 00:26:55,525 --> 00:26:57,885 Speaker 1: the cult promoted and some of the ways that it 476 00:26:57,965 --> 00:26:59,645 Speaker 1: had gotten right under her skin. 477 00:27:00,045 --> 00:27:03,285 Speaker 2: Lucy interjected, Now, you're not married, but if you were, 478 00:27:03,445 --> 00:27:05,285 Speaker 2: your husband would be your spiritual authority. 479 00:27:05,885 --> 00:27:10,765 Speaker 4: She rubbed Kurt's leg. My chest tightened instantly. In spite 480 00:27:10,765 --> 00:27:13,685 Speaker 4: of hearing this statement. My whole life in church, gender 481 00:27:13,765 --> 00:27:17,445 Speaker 4: roles in American Christianity never sat right with me, or 482 00:27:17,525 --> 00:27:20,725 Speaker 4: my mother, or either of my grandmother's. But in the 483 00:27:20,765 --> 00:27:24,645 Speaker 4: context of this Jezebel conversation, it occurred to me that 484 00:27:25,325 --> 00:27:28,525 Speaker 4: perhaps that was exactly the point. I came from a 485 00:27:28,565 --> 00:27:32,565 Speaker 4: long line of independent, dominant women, and just maybe the 486 00:27:32,725 --> 00:27:37,845 Speaker 4: Jezebel's spirit had already infiltrated my family my mind. Maybe 487 00:27:37,885 --> 00:27:39,765 Speaker 4: that was why I could never get on board with 488 00:27:39,845 --> 00:27:43,845 Speaker 4: the whole submissive wife idea. Was I being attacked by 489 00:27:43,845 --> 00:27:47,485 Speaker 4: an ancient spirit of control? Was being a woman in 490 00:27:47,525 --> 00:27:49,925 Speaker 4: submission the key I had been missing all along. 491 00:27:51,085 --> 00:27:54,445 Speaker 1: So as you're drawing closer to the Big House family, 492 00:27:55,045 --> 00:27:57,245 Speaker 1: what was going on in your career around this time? 493 00:27:58,085 --> 00:28:01,965 Speaker 2: I was continuing to work as an actress in LA 494 00:28:02,085 --> 00:28:05,045 Speaker 2: I was getting great jobs. I got a job on 495 00:28:05,445 --> 00:28:10,205 Speaker 2: Felicity Charmed and I did a to bring it On 496 00:28:10,485 --> 00:28:14,485 Speaker 2: called Bring It On Again, which my daughter. 497 00:28:14,245 --> 00:28:15,125 Speaker 3: Still has yet to see. 498 00:28:15,165 --> 00:28:16,725 Speaker 2: She's going to see that sometimes. Soon. 499 00:28:17,485 --> 00:28:18,765 Speaker 3: I was doing theater. 500 00:28:19,365 --> 00:28:23,485 Speaker 2: I got cast in Gary Marshall and Carol King's production 501 00:28:23,605 --> 00:28:26,645 Speaker 2: of Happy Days the Musical. I did The Outsiders of 502 00:28:26,765 --> 00:28:30,045 Speaker 2: Musical with Adam Lambert and Alison Munn who ended up 503 00:28:30,045 --> 00:28:33,485 Speaker 2: being on Onntree Hill later. That was by Arthur Allen Seelman. 504 00:28:33,645 --> 00:28:36,485 Speaker 2: I mean, I was really things were working. It was 505 00:28:36,525 --> 00:28:37,445 Speaker 2: going really well. 506 00:28:38,045 --> 00:28:40,365 Speaker 1: Tell me about One Tree Hill? How did that come about? 507 00:28:40,725 --> 00:28:42,245 Speaker 2: This is one of the fun things that I wrote 508 00:28:42,245 --> 00:28:44,885 Speaker 2: about in the book, is how I it originally came 509 00:28:44,925 --> 00:28:46,845 Speaker 2: around and I said no, and then it came back 510 00:28:46,845 --> 00:28:49,885 Speaker 2: around again, and I'd get really into detail about why 511 00:28:49,925 --> 00:28:52,245 Speaker 2: I said no and what that time in my life 512 00:28:52,325 --> 00:28:54,965 Speaker 2: looked like in the book. But for now, I'll just 513 00:28:55,045 --> 00:28:57,885 Speaker 2: tell you that it came around. I said, no, it 514 00:28:57,925 --> 00:29:01,205 Speaker 2: came back around about two weeks before they started filming 515 00:29:01,325 --> 00:29:03,925 Speaker 2: the first episode, and they were going to reshoot a 516 00:29:03,925 --> 00:29:06,445 Speaker 2: couple scenes from the pilot that I would be in, 517 00:29:07,125 --> 00:29:10,005 Speaker 2: and I said yes, I said, okay, let's give it 518 00:29:10,045 --> 00:29:13,765 Speaker 2: a try. Why not, I'll just leave it up to 519 00:29:13,805 --> 00:29:15,765 Speaker 2: God and see if you want me to move to 520 00:29:15,805 --> 00:29:19,285 Speaker 2: North Carolina. And when I got the job, it was 521 00:29:19,365 --> 00:29:23,045 Speaker 2: within days of auditioning, probably four days. I mean, it 522 00:29:23,125 --> 00:29:24,285 Speaker 2: all happened very quickly. 523 00:29:24,845 --> 00:29:27,125 Speaker 1: It's funny. The tagline of your book is so brilliant 524 00:29:27,245 --> 00:29:29,405 Speaker 1: life on a cult TV show while also in an 525 00:29:29,445 --> 00:29:34,085 Speaker 1: actual cult. If I met you during that time when 526 00:29:34,165 --> 00:29:36,565 Speaker 1: you were on One Tree Hill, if I was among 527 00:29:36,605 --> 00:29:40,365 Speaker 1: the cast or crew, what would I have noticed about 528 00:29:40,405 --> 00:29:44,325 Speaker 1: you that would have made me go, oh, that's a 529 00:29:44,365 --> 00:29:46,165 Speaker 1: bit weird. 530 00:29:45,765 --> 00:29:49,965 Speaker 2: I think it really was mostly that I talked about 531 00:29:50,005 --> 00:29:52,605 Speaker 2: my family, and then the more people would ask me 532 00:29:52,685 --> 00:29:54,805 Speaker 2: questions about it, they would realize, oh, this isn't your 533 00:29:54,885 --> 00:29:58,045 Speaker 2: actual family. And I detail this in the book. There's 534 00:29:58,205 --> 00:30:00,325 Speaker 2: you know, there would be a moment where somebody might say, 535 00:30:00,765 --> 00:30:03,805 Speaker 2: so your mom's in California and your dad's in New Jersey, 536 00:30:03,925 --> 00:30:06,165 Speaker 2: but you spend all your time in Idaho with your 537 00:30:06,565 --> 00:30:10,285 Speaker 2: family who's not are you related to them? And the 538 00:30:10,325 --> 00:30:12,125 Speaker 2: more that I would explain, well, no, it's like a 539 00:30:12,125 --> 00:30:15,205 Speaker 2: spiritual family. It's like my chosen family, you know. And 540 00:30:15,285 --> 00:30:17,445 Speaker 2: then I think those were kind of key moments where 541 00:30:17,485 --> 00:30:19,805 Speaker 2: people were like, yeah, they do exactly what you just did, Like. 542 00:30:22,205 --> 00:30:24,325 Speaker 1: Okay, like backing slowly away. 543 00:30:24,205 --> 00:30:25,165 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. 544 00:30:25,205 --> 00:30:26,205 Speaker 3: That's interesting. 545 00:30:26,285 --> 00:30:28,565 Speaker 2: And what do you guys do together? Yeah? 546 00:30:28,765 --> 00:30:33,925 Speaker 1: Yeah, was part of the Big House family and that family. 547 00:30:34,605 --> 00:30:38,165 Speaker 1: Cults are about recruiting new people usually, So did you 548 00:30:38,205 --> 00:30:41,405 Speaker 1: like proselytize and sort of we were evangelical and try 549 00:30:41,445 --> 00:30:44,325 Speaker 1: to get people to join this family or was it 550 00:30:44,485 --> 00:30:46,965 Speaker 1: very much a closed gait? 551 00:30:47,605 --> 00:30:53,445 Speaker 2: I think because we had well, I think because it 552 00:30:53,485 --> 00:30:56,365 Speaker 2: became the Bank of Joy, like I just funded everything. 553 00:30:56,605 --> 00:30:59,765 Speaker 2: So I don't think that there was a need for 554 00:31:00,005 --> 00:31:06,725 Speaker 2: recruiting in Less's mind because he was able to. It's funny, 555 00:31:06,725 --> 00:31:08,725 Speaker 2: he's kind of the worst cult leader ever because he 556 00:31:08,885 --> 00:31:10,965 Speaker 2: just like I don't know if he was just lazy, 557 00:31:11,045 --> 00:31:13,725 Speaker 2: like he definitely was lazy. I don't know if he 558 00:31:14,205 --> 00:31:16,525 Speaker 2: just didn't want to work that hard, like it's just 559 00:31:16,525 --> 00:31:19,125 Speaker 2: so much work to go out and recruit people, and 560 00:31:20,165 --> 00:31:23,405 Speaker 2: he was already managing the twenty four of us that 561 00:31:23,445 --> 00:31:28,205 Speaker 2: were in the group. I also heard many years later, 562 00:31:28,285 --> 00:31:30,645 Speaker 2: when I was speaking to the DA's office and presenting 563 00:31:30,685 --> 00:31:33,365 Speaker 2: them with my financial case and everything that had gone 564 00:31:33,405 --> 00:31:37,005 Speaker 2: down and money that had crossed state lines, and we 565 00:31:37,005 --> 00:31:39,525 Speaker 2: were like, is the FBI need to get involved? The 566 00:31:39,645 --> 00:31:42,765 Speaker 2: DA said, yeah, I don't think we can really prosecute 567 00:31:42,765 --> 00:31:47,725 Speaker 2: this because it's less than seventy people, and anything less 568 00:31:47,765 --> 00:31:50,325 Speaker 2: than that isn't really considered a danger to society. 569 00:31:50,365 --> 00:31:55,125 Speaker 3: It's just like a little club that's gone back like that. 570 00:31:55,245 --> 00:31:58,965 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And maybe he knew that. I don't know 571 00:31:59,285 --> 00:32:01,125 Speaker 2: if he knew that and tried to keep it small 572 00:32:01,165 --> 00:32:04,845 Speaker 2: on purpose, or if it was just too much work 573 00:32:04,885 --> 00:32:07,325 Speaker 2: and he just was happy to rest on his laurels 574 00:32:07,365 --> 00:32:11,245 Speaker 2: and whatever he had around, which was us. 575 00:32:11,685 --> 00:32:13,725 Speaker 1: When did he start taking money from you? 576 00:32:14,125 --> 00:32:17,405 Speaker 2: Well, the first pitch was it was a low ball, 577 00:32:17,885 --> 00:32:21,045 Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars. You're on a TV series, that's nothing 578 00:32:21,165 --> 00:32:23,965 Speaker 2: for you. We want to open up a hotel. It's 579 00:32:24,005 --> 00:32:27,205 Speaker 2: going to be a ministry. We're going to bring people 580 00:32:27,285 --> 00:32:31,005 Speaker 2: in and help them fall in love with God and 581 00:32:31,245 --> 00:32:33,205 Speaker 2: let them know how loved they are. And we're just 582 00:32:33,205 --> 00:32:36,565 Speaker 2: going to be hospitable and it'll be a place where 583 00:32:36,565 --> 00:32:40,445 Speaker 2: we can have meetings and conferences and just really bless 584 00:32:40,485 --> 00:32:43,405 Speaker 2: the community. And I'm thinking I would love to be 585 00:32:43,485 --> 00:32:46,965 Speaker 2: a part of something that encourages the community. That sounds great. 586 00:32:47,645 --> 00:32:52,045 Speaker 2: A motel isn't really my idea of that dream, but 587 00:32:52,365 --> 00:32:54,205 Speaker 2: it's yours, and I care about you and I want 588 00:32:54,245 --> 00:32:58,525 Speaker 2: to support you. Yes, Sure, here's the check. And I 589 00:32:58,565 --> 00:33:02,205 Speaker 2: think that was the first like doorcrack open, Like how 590 00:33:02,245 --> 00:33:04,085 Speaker 2: much is she willing? What is she willing to do? Oh, 591 00:33:04,125 --> 00:33:06,645 Speaker 2: she'll give us money too. Oh, you know, we also 592 00:33:06,765 --> 00:33:09,925 Speaker 2: really need a new we need a swamp cooler, we 593 00:33:09,965 --> 00:33:11,565 Speaker 2: need to you know what else we need you know. 594 00:33:11,605 --> 00:33:13,765 Speaker 2: And it's just like all the little things started to 595 00:33:14,245 --> 00:33:16,525 Speaker 2: in the same way that they sort of latched on 596 00:33:16,605 --> 00:33:20,205 Speaker 2: and were sucking out my life emotionally. Then they started 597 00:33:20,245 --> 00:33:24,725 Speaker 2: siphoning off financially as well, once the testing proved to 598 00:33:24,765 --> 00:33:25,645 Speaker 2: be fruitful. 599 00:33:28,165 --> 00:33:35,165 Speaker 1: The rest of my conversation with Joy after this, did 600 00:33:35,165 --> 00:33:38,405 Speaker 1: you still have friends? What about dating? Like friends? Relationships? 601 00:33:38,605 --> 00:33:40,805 Speaker 1: You were engaged at one point to someone who wasn't 602 00:33:40,845 --> 00:33:41,565 Speaker 1: part of the group. 603 00:33:42,125 --> 00:33:46,525 Speaker 2: Yeah I was. I was definitely still wanted to date, 604 00:33:46,605 --> 00:33:49,405 Speaker 2: still wanted to get I was obsessed with getting married. 605 00:33:49,445 --> 00:33:53,005 Speaker 2: I just really wanted to have a partner. And I 606 00:33:53,045 --> 00:33:56,525 Speaker 2: was engaged to someone after probably three months of dating 607 00:33:56,685 --> 00:34:01,205 Speaker 2: and knowing each other. It was so fast, and it 608 00:34:01,245 --> 00:34:03,725 Speaker 2: was a very I do write about this in the 609 00:34:03,765 --> 00:34:09,085 Speaker 2: book sweet Man, But we both just really wanted to 610 00:34:09,125 --> 00:34:11,125 Speaker 2: get married, really wanted to have a companion. And it 611 00:34:11,165 --> 00:34:13,445 Speaker 2: didn't matter that we weren't combatible, and it didn't matter 612 00:34:13,485 --> 00:34:16,205 Speaker 2: that we had only known each other for a little while, 613 00:34:16,805 --> 00:34:19,085 Speaker 2: or that there were red flags from other friends of ours. 614 00:34:19,565 --> 00:34:23,165 Speaker 3: We just were like, let's do it. But I had 615 00:34:23,365 --> 00:34:24,005 Speaker 3: this sort. 616 00:34:23,805 --> 00:34:27,445 Speaker 2: Of contingency in my mind of my family up here 617 00:34:27,485 --> 00:34:31,005 Speaker 2: that I've become so tight with. These are my people, 618 00:34:31,125 --> 00:34:32,725 Speaker 2: this is my tribe, This is who I want to 619 00:34:32,765 --> 00:34:36,365 Speaker 2: do life with. If they disapprove of you as a 620 00:34:36,405 --> 00:34:38,645 Speaker 2: spouse for me, then I probably am not going to 621 00:34:38,645 --> 00:34:41,165 Speaker 2: marry you because I want them more than I want you, 622 00:34:41,405 --> 00:34:43,085 Speaker 2: which in and up itself should have been a huge 623 00:34:43,085 --> 00:34:46,805 Speaker 2: clue as to why not to get married to somebody? Right, Yeah, 624 00:34:46,845 --> 00:34:51,285 Speaker 2: but you know again, you're so young, So yeah, I did. 625 00:34:51,645 --> 00:34:54,125 Speaker 2: I did really want a date, but because I felt 626 00:34:54,125 --> 00:34:58,525 Speaker 2: like I had these confines of the family and location, 627 00:34:58,965 --> 00:35:01,285 Speaker 2: because the man that I had been engaged to was 628 00:35:01,805 --> 00:35:03,725 Speaker 2: a local in North Carolina. 629 00:35:04,405 --> 00:35:05,245 Speaker 3: How was that going to work? 630 00:35:05,285 --> 00:35:08,285 Speaker 2: How was I going to build a life there when 631 00:35:08,325 --> 00:35:09,165 Speaker 2: I had this family back? 632 00:35:09,405 --> 00:35:11,805 Speaker 3: Idahow you did end up. 633 00:35:13,165 --> 00:35:19,165 Speaker 1: Marrying Les's son, one of his sons. Was that like 634 00:35:19,165 --> 00:35:24,205 Speaker 1: an arranged situation or with a spots and the developing 635 00:35:24,245 --> 00:35:25,405 Speaker 1: of feelings. 636 00:35:25,805 --> 00:35:30,805 Speaker 2: Natural, there were absolutely the beginning sparks of something that 637 00:35:30,885 --> 00:35:35,685 Speaker 2: felt fun and playful and a friendship. I did explain 638 00:35:35,765 --> 00:35:41,045 Speaker 2: to Less privately that I felt like I was having 639 00:35:41,085 --> 00:35:43,725 Speaker 2: these feelings mostly just because I wanted to have them, 640 00:35:43,765 --> 00:35:46,685 Speaker 2: because they were there for me to have with. I mean, 641 00:35:46,685 --> 00:35:49,045 Speaker 2: I had them for like any boy that I was 642 00:35:49,085 --> 00:35:52,205 Speaker 2: interacting with that was single. I was hoping that I 643 00:35:52,285 --> 00:35:54,525 Speaker 2: might be able to let this part of myself out, 644 00:35:54,725 --> 00:35:56,365 Speaker 2: and as a concern that I was just doing that 645 00:35:56,405 --> 00:35:59,245 Speaker 2: because I felt like I was stuck with having to 646 00:35:59,445 --> 00:36:03,685 Speaker 2: marry somebody within the group. And as sweet as he 647 00:36:03,925 --> 00:36:06,285 Speaker 2: was and as much as I enjoyed his friendship, I 648 00:36:06,325 --> 00:36:10,845 Speaker 2: wasn't sure if it was really authentically Roman. Yeah, you know, 649 00:36:10,885 --> 00:36:14,565 Speaker 2: so I was really confused about my own emotions, of course, 650 00:36:15,045 --> 00:36:17,605 Speaker 2: and then it was certainly manipulated from there, and he 651 00:36:18,045 --> 00:36:22,285 Speaker 2: manipulated several relationships within the group. So I don't know 652 00:36:22,285 --> 00:36:25,565 Speaker 2: what the specific definition of arranged marriage is, but in 653 00:36:25,605 --> 00:36:27,645 Speaker 2: many ways I think that categorized. 654 00:36:28,045 --> 00:36:31,165 Speaker 1: And also, you were you know, you committed to save 655 00:36:31,245 --> 00:36:34,605 Speaker 1: your virginity for marriage, So you're a young woman, and 656 00:36:34,805 --> 00:36:37,765 Speaker 1: I imagine that played a part too in terms of 657 00:36:38,365 --> 00:36:41,405 Speaker 1: you wanted to have a full life experience and the 658 00:36:41,565 --> 00:36:43,765 Speaker 1: marriage was the gatekeeping for that. 659 00:36:43,925 --> 00:36:48,005 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yeah, well, you know when you're a 660 00:36:48,045 --> 00:36:51,565 Speaker 2: young woman and you're prime and thriving, well, I would 661 00:36:51,605 --> 00:36:56,525 Speaker 2: say in my prime, but you know then I felt 662 00:36:56,605 --> 00:37:01,085 Speaker 2: so alive and vibranton. I really absolutely just wanted to 663 00:37:01,165 --> 00:37:07,965 Speaker 2: experience the fullness of my femininity and my womanhood. And yeah, 664 00:37:08,045 --> 00:37:12,125 Speaker 2: that's just that's that's it. In so many religious circles, 665 00:37:12,165 --> 00:37:15,245 Speaker 2: that is the gait that you just I know so 666 00:37:15,285 --> 00:37:17,805 Speaker 2: many people that compromised on a partner because they just 667 00:37:17,845 --> 00:37:20,925 Speaker 2: wanted to because they were a r that's it. 668 00:37:22,045 --> 00:37:25,285 Speaker 3: I know, you're right, it's biology. 669 00:37:25,925 --> 00:37:27,605 Speaker 1: What was your honey movie life? 670 00:37:28,805 --> 00:37:31,045 Speaker 2: Well, I do talk about this a lot in the book, 671 00:37:31,085 --> 00:37:32,885 Speaker 2: and so I want to save a lot of that 672 00:37:32,925 --> 00:37:35,365 Speaker 2: for people just to be able to experience on their own. 673 00:37:36,565 --> 00:37:40,005 Speaker 2: But it did become clear that we were really not 674 00:37:40,165 --> 00:37:43,485 Speaker 2: well suited for each other, and it was difficult. There 675 00:37:43,525 --> 00:37:45,685 Speaker 2: was a lot of depression that set in for me 676 00:37:46,205 --> 00:37:50,405 Speaker 2: upon realizing that I had made a choice that was 677 00:37:51,925 --> 00:37:53,965 Speaker 2: going to take my life in a completely different direction 678 00:37:54,085 --> 00:37:57,885 Speaker 2: than I wanted or planned. And of course so hard 679 00:37:57,925 --> 00:38:01,725 Speaker 2: to regret any of that though, because I have my amazing, 680 00:38:01,805 --> 00:38:06,045 Speaker 2: beautiful daughter who is just like the light of my life. 681 00:38:06,045 --> 00:38:07,765 Speaker 2: I'd go through all of it again and again if 682 00:38:07,805 --> 00:38:11,045 Speaker 2: I had to, just for her, because she's the best. 683 00:38:11,365 --> 00:38:15,405 Speaker 1: As your fame started to climb around this time, you're 684 00:38:15,445 --> 00:38:19,925 Speaker 1: on this cultiv show. You had a record dale because 685 00:38:19,925 --> 00:38:24,405 Speaker 1: you're also an incredible singer. Were rumors starting to spread 686 00:38:24,845 --> 00:38:27,125 Speaker 1: that perhaps you were in a cult and did that 687 00:38:27,165 --> 00:38:30,805 Speaker 1: affect the opportunities that you were given and was it 688 00:38:30,845 --> 00:38:32,205 Speaker 1: starting to impact on your career? 689 00:38:32,685 --> 00:38:34,285 Speaker 3: That was the impression I was given. 690 00:38:34,485 --> 00:38:38,125 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm not in anybody else's office or 691 00:38:38,205 --> 00:38:45,845 Speaker 2: head or conversations, but what I was hearing from managers, agents, 692 00:38:46,085 --> 00:38:50,485 Speaker 2: from conversations with producers and things, it was like this 693 00:38:50,725 --> 00:38:58,365 Speaker 2: subtle unfurling of information that she's involved in some kind 694 00:38:58,365 --> 00:39:01,725 Speaker 2: of religious something. I don't know, maybe it's a cult, 695 00:39:01,885 --> 00:39:04,045 Speaker 2: I don't know, but it was enough to be off 696 00:39:04,085 --> 00:39:07,165 Speaker 2: putting for people. You know, if you're casting a project, 697 00:39:07,165 --> 00:39:10,245 Speaker 2: you don't want to have any extra random stuff to 698 00:39:10,245 --> 00:39:13,045 Speaker 2: deal with, Like I just want you to show up 699 00:39:13,045 --> 00:39:15,485 Speaker 2: to work and do your job. And as a director 700 00:39:15,565 --> 00:39:17,045 Speaker 2: or producer, you think, I don't want to have to 701 00:39:17,045 --> 00:39:20,645 Speaker 2: deal with somebody that's got this bizarre personal life that's 702 00:39:20,645 --> 00:39:23,285 Speaker 2: a liability, Like what if they start losing their mind, 703 00:39:23,285 --> 00:39:26,085 Speaker 2: what if they start doing something crazy. I don't know 704 00:39:26,125 --> 00:39:28,645 Speaker 2: how to anticipate or what to expect. And I think 705 00:39:28,685 --> 00:39:34,045 Speaker 2: it absolutely locked down my career into One Tree Hill 706 00:39:34,125 --> 00:39:37,765 Speaker 2: as the only thing that was stable and everything else 707 00:39:37,845 --> 00:39:38,565 Speaker 2: kind of went away. 708 00:39:39,125 --> 00:39:41,645 Speaker 1: Were there things that like career opportunities and jobs that 709 00:39:41,685 --> 00:39:45,125 Speaker 1: you were turning down? Like was the cult impacting on 710 00:39:45,165 --> 00:39:48,405 Speaker 1: your choices? Like how was it showing up at work? 711 00:39:48,645 --> 00:39:53,085 Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, Yeah. There were so many auditions that I 712 00:39:53,205 --> 00:39:56,525 Speaker 2: got that I was really primed for. I was in 713 00:39:56,565 --> 00:39:59,965 Speaker 2: such a good position because I was a singer, My 714 00:40:00,045 --> 00:40:03,005 Speaker 2: character was singing on the show. The show was really 715 00:40:03,205 --> 00:40:05,565 Speaker 2: it was like right in that sweet spot for the 716 00:40:05,605 --> 00:40:09,365 Speaker 2: show when it had broken past the Middle America a 717 00:40:10,005 --> 00:40:12,045 Speaker 2: secret like, oh are you watching this show? And it 718 00:40:12,125 --> 00:40:15,245 Speaker 2: was really now it was trl and we're everywhere and 719 00:40:15,645 --> 00:40:19,005 Speaker 2: everybody was talking about us, and I that was that's 720 00:40:19,045 --> 00:40:21,405 Speaker 2: the moment. You know, you've got to capitalize career wise, 721 00:40:21,445 --> 00:40:25,045 Speaker 2: when when the momentum is happening. And I just every 722 00:40:25,085 --> 00:40:27,805 Speaker 2: audition I would take to the group to take a 723 00:40:27,845 --> 00:40:30,725 Speaker 2: look at and let's read the script together and let's 724 00:40:30,725 --> 00:40:33,685 Speaker 2: talk about if this is a story that I should 725 00:40:34,205 --> 00:40:37,685 Speaker 2: be participating in, if God really wants me to, you know, 726 00:40:37,805 --> 00:40:39,845 Speaker 2: tell this story, or if it's going to do damage 727 00:40:39,845 --> 00:40:41,365 Speaker 2: in the world or something, you know. I mean, I 728 00:40:41,365 --> 00:40:45,325 Speaker 2: remember getting the script from Mama Mia and having a 729 00:40:45,365 --> 00:40:49,085 Speaker 2: phone call with the Mina character who said, oh, this 730 00:40:49,205 --> 00:40:50,765 Speaker 2: is got to be a huge no, you. 731 00:40:51,085 --> 00:40:51,685 Speaker 3: Can't do this. 732 00:40:52,045 --> 00:40:57,005 Speaker 2: There's a dance of a pearl necklace and well, you know, 733 00:40:57,085 --> 00:40:59,885 Speaker 2: because I mean, obviously you know the sexual connotation of 734 00:40:59,885 --> 00:41:02,885 Speaker 2: a pearl necklace. And then there's that's the name of 735 00:41:02,965 --> 00:41:04,885 Speaker 2: one of the songs that was in the show, was 736 00:41:04,925 --> 00:41:07,885 Speaker 2: like the dance of the necklace, and it's just like 737 00:41:07,965 --> 00:41:10,445 Speaker 2: it was just about this woman who was fornicating with 738 00:41:10,485 --> 00:41:12,365 Speaker 2: all these men, and you know, you can't be a 739 00:41:12,405 --> 00:41:14,485 Speaker 2: part of telling a story like that. And I mean, 740 00:41:14,725 --> 00:41:16,365 Speaker 2: I watched that movie with my daughter now, it's like 741 00:41:16,685 --> 00:41:19,485 Speaker 2: one of our favorites, and I just such a great 742 00:41:19,605 --> 00:41:21,645 Speaker 2: I just kick myself all the time because there were 743 00:41:21,685 --> 00:41:24,125 Speaker 2: so many opportunities like that that I just said no 744 00:41:24,285 --> 00:41:26,925 Speaker 2: to because I didn't have the. 745 00:41:27,125 --> 00:41:29,925 Speaker 1: Your poor agent and manager like, oh yeah. 746 00:41:29,725 --> 00:41:33,845 Speaker 2: I'm sure they were just exhausted beside themselves. Yeah that 747 00:41:34,005 --> 00:41:36,365 Speaker 2: was It's really rough. It's so sad, but I just 748 00:41:36,405 --> 00:41:38,965 Speaker 2: didn't have the maturity to know how to. I was 749 00:41:38,965 --> 00:41:42,045 Speaker 2: getting bad advice, you know, I was just getting. 750 00:41:41,805 --> 00:41:44,925 Speaker 1: Bout and it was mind control, mind control. 751 00:41:45,005 --> 00:41:45,205 Speaker 3: Yeah. 752 00:41:49,365 --> 00:41:51,885 Speaker 1: Joy story is a complicated one, and it's one that 753 00:41:51,925 --> 00:41:55,285 Speaker 1: she's taken a long time to untangle and make sense of. 754 00:41:55,925 --> 00:41:56,365 Speaker 3: And there is. 755 00:41:56,365 --> 00:41:58,485 Speaker 1: Still so much of it to hear because in part 756 00:41:58,485 --> 00:42:01,645 Speaker 1: two of this conversation, we find out why and how 757 00:42:02,285 --> 00:42:05,645 Speaker 1: Joy finally decided to leave the Big House Family cult, 758 00:42:06,125 --> 00:42:08,125 Speaker 1: how she picked up the pieces of her life when 759 00:42:08,125 --> 00:42:11,325 Speaker 1: she walked away, and how she's going now when it 760 00:42:11,365 --> 00:42:15,405 Speaker 1: comes to trust, faith, and relationships. Here's a bit of 761 00:42:15,445 --> 00:42:15,885 Speaker 1: our chat. 762 00:42:16,485 --> 00:42:19,565 Speaker 2: I remember her saying, are we ready to call it 763 00:42:19,605 --> 00:42:25,445 Speaker 2: a cult? And I just was shocked, and I was 764 00:42:25,805 --> 00:42:32,125 Speaker 2: angry because how humiliating, how embarrassing. I'm that stupid, I'm 765 00:42:32,125 --> 00:42:34,045 Speaker 2: that weak. I got into a cult. 766 00:42:34,925 --> 00:42:37,285 Speaker 1: Meet me in Part two. For the rest of Joy's story, 767 00:42:37,445 --> 00:42:38,965 Speaker 1: there's a link in the show notes.