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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to MO.

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Speaker 3: When we are out loud is what women are talking

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Speaker 3: about on Friday, the sixth of March.

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Speaker 2: I'm Hollywayne Wright, I'm Claire Stephen and I'm oh my god,

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Speaker 2: I'm a bit nervous.

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Speaker 4: She's back from your holiday.

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Speaker 2: We became number one holiday.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know what you were on those shows

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Speaker 3: that we became number one for, So I think you

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Speaker 3: can claim that crown.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Claire. Were you on those show?

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Speaker 5: I was here? You were you were? I was like

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Speaker 5: in the atmosphere, I remember that. I remember that. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: says a lot about me. I'm like, I feel like

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Speaker 5: I'm off and around success.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: There is one thing that the out louders need to

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Speaker 3: know from you, Emily Vernham. You've just been on holiday

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Speaker 3: for pretty.

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Speaker 4: Much a month.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much.

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Speaker 4: How many pairs of nickers did you take?

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Speaker 6: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Okay, great, great question. I overseas for twenty two days,

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Speaker 2: so I took thirty two pairs?

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Speaker 4: Did you use all of them?

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Speaker 7: No?

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Speaker 2: Because I didn't know I had access to a washing machine.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I was gonna say, I bet you had access.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I like, I think I would own thirty two pairs.

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Speaker 2: I didn't. I think the day before I ran to

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Speaker 2: kmart in a panic, and yeah, having stock anymore, so

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Speaker 2: you have.

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Speaker 5: To grab, like you know, when you get to the

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Speaker 5: real bottom of the barrel with your undies and you're like,

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Speaker 5: these have holes. I had a documents appointment recently in

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Speaker 5: a very old pair of undies.

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Speaker 3: You had to take an extra bag just for your underwear.

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Speaker 3: How loud as If you're wondering why the hell were

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Speaker 3: talking about this. One of our most famous debates of

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Speaker 3: recent times is how many pairs of underpants you pack

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Speaker 3: when you're going away?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thirty two is a bit too much, I will

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Speaker 2: say that, will I probably could have won away with twenty.

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Speaker 5: There's two week strains here because Holly would have packed three.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I would have done.

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Speaker 3: I would have taken like maybe seven and then you

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Speaker 3: just rotate and wash.

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Speaker 2: Like anyway, we don't need to go back into that.

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Speaker 4: Did you have a great time?

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Speaker 2: I had the best, best time. I'm happy to be back.

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Speaker 2: But oh my god, I love a holiday. We should

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Speaker 2: all be on holiday all the time.

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Speaker 5: I want a photo dump of your holiday on the

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Speaker 5: out Louders Instagram.

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Speaker 2: That's a good idea.

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Speaker 5: I need it to everyone can see, Yeah, like obviously

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Speaker 5: on yours.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but also for the apes I loud us want

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Speaker 3: to see what em did in India.

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Speaker 4: Ye, and so do I.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, welcome back to our Friday show Mate. There's a

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Speaker 3: lot of news going on. You won't hear any of

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Speaker 3: it here today, so that's good. But here is what

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Speaker 3: is on our agenda. I want to tell you about

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Speaker 3: the Internet's new favorite literal girl Boss. She is a

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Speaker 3: thirteen year old skincare ce plus.

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Speaker 5: We used to be terrified of public speaking, but jen

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Speaker 5: Z are terrified of something much smaller and a weekly recos.

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Speaker 2: They consist of two podcasts and one very wild book.

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Speaker 4: But first, Emily Vernon.

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Speaker 2: In case you missed it, no one is wearing mascara anymore.

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Speaker 4: I won't hear it.

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Speaker 2: I won't have this, Okay, I need to rephrase. The

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Speaker 2: cool kids aren't wearing muscara anymore. Seen the headlines, there's

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Speaker 2: been a trend. It is called ghost lashes, which means

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Speaker 2: slashes without mascara. So this started off in We saw

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Speaker 2: it first in the Megala last year where Sophia, Richie

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Speaker 2: and Lord weren't wearing mascara, and it was a bit scandalous.

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Speaker 2: But then recently on the runways that are happening in

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Speaker 2: the last fashion season, none of the models are wearing

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Speaker 2: muscara either, And you know what, I'm for it.

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Speaker 5: No, No, it's discriminatory against blondes. And it's also discriminatory

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Speaker 5: against people with no lips, because you can only wear

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Speaker 5: no muscara if you've got a statement lip, otherwise you

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Speaker 5: look Onwell.

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Speaker 2: I wear a statement lip and no mascara.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but I can't because I look like a clown

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Speaker 5: because the lips are too things.

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Speaker 2: You have to be cool.

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Speaker 3: This is the thing about the no mescara kids. Now

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Speaker 3: you're on this train right.

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Speaker 2: I haven't won mascara at all this year.

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Speaker 4: That's amazing.

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Speaker 2: The main reason is because I star infection.

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Speaker 4: You had it, and so you've had to swear off it.

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Speaker 2: I'm scared of it, like I'm deeply scared of it.

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Speaker 2: And mascara is messy, it goes everywhere.

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Speaker 3: Like I am so wedded to my mascara. It is

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Speaker 3: my It's a white tail's nightmare. It's the only thing

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Speaker 3: I would take with me, Like I couldn't ever go

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Speaker 3: one survivor because I couldn't live with that mascara. It's

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Speaker 3: the only thing i'd take on alone in Australia if

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Speaker 3: I was on that, I like, mascara is my thing.

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Speaker 3: And you're right, Claire, that there is like you know,

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Speaker 3: obviously you've got beautiful dark lashes.

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Speaker 2: And blessed with very thick dark hair all over my

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Speaker 2: body guards. I have to win some of those humehs.

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Speaker 3: But and I've got basically white eyelashes. But I've seen

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Speaker 3: lots of very fair people with this no mascara trend.

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Speaker 2: You're supposed to look like that, right, like that, very then.

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Speaker 3: But I also think it's ageist because it makes you

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Speaker 3: look younger, no question not wearing mascara.

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Speaker 2: They look baby face, these people.

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Speaker 3: But when the rest of your face can no longer

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Speaker 3: play that game, you just look like an elderly baby.

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Speaker 4: So I can't do it.

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Speaker 3: Just like the side parts, like the skinny jeans, you

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Speaker 3: can take them, take the skinny jeans, but by mascari,

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Speaker 3: you will prize it from my cold deadhand them.

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Speaker 5: Okay, when was the last time you initiated small talk

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Speaker 5: with a stranger in public? I'm finding that there are

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Speaker 5: certain things that are massive social lubricants that make it easier.

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Speaker 5: I found it a lot easier with a dog when

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Speaker 5: I was at the dog park, because you could just

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Speaker 5: start conversation about your dog, what breed, et cetera, and.

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Speaker 2: Conversation with the owner of the dog with the dog. See,

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Speaker 2: that's the thing.

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Speaker 5: I find it easier to talk to animals and babies

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Speaker 5: for people, so because.

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Speaker 2: What are you going to say?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. But sometimes I'd essentially start talking to the

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Speaker 5: dog and it evolves into a conversation with the dog's person.

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Speaker 5: And I do the same thing at the park. So

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Speaker 5: there's a kid, My daughter has run up to the

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Speaker 5: kid to yell at them about something or embrace them aggressively,

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Speaker 5: and then you kind of have to talk. And I

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Speaker 5: find that quite nice social lubricant. But for a long

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Speaker 5: time we've acknowledged that one of our biggest fears as

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Speaker 5: human beings is public speaking. But now, according to an

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Speaker 5: article in The Guardian by viv grosskop jen Z in particular,

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Speaker 5: are terrified of speaking to anyone in public.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 5: In her column The Stranger Secret, How to talk to

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Speaker 5: Anyone and why you should, she recalls being at a

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Speaker 5: restaurant and chatting to the waitress about her hometown of

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Speaker 5: Soul and what life is like there, and when she left,

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Speaker 5: her fifteen year old said to her, how do you

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Speaker 5: know if you're allowed to have that conversation like that,

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Speaker 5: you're allowed to ask about that and that that person

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Speaker 5: is happy to talk about it, And Grosskop said, you

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Speaker 5: don't always know. It's okay. It's a risk and you

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Speaker 5: have to find out. But that risk taking is disappearing.

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Speaker 5: When we're on the train, or we're waiting in line

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Speaker 5: at the shops, or we're in a waiting room at

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Speaker 5: the doctors. We don't want to talk to anyone and

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Speaker 5: we don't want them to talk to us. And I do.

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Speaker 4: I want to talk to them.

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Speaker 2: Really, I love talking to people. I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I'm not scared.

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Speaker 5: There's lots of reasons why we've kind of evolved into

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Speaker 5: this way. One is noise canceling, headphones, social media phones,

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Speaker 5: rise of working from home, touch screens in restaurants and

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Speaker 5: self checkouts, death of their spaces, and the pandemic. And

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Speaker 5: psychologist Esther Perell calls it a global relational recession, and

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Speaker 5: she says the point is not depth, the point is practiced. Yes,

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Speaker 5: the gentle strengthening of our social muscles. So Grosscott basically says,

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Speaker 5: small talk might not profoundly all to your life, but

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Speaker 5: its absence will profoundly alter human life as we know.

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Speaker 3: It's crucial. Small talk is absolutely crucial.

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Speaker 5: Tell me how you do it, Give me a script.

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Speaker 6: All right.

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Speaker 3: I'm terrible at small talk in some situations, but good

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Speaker 3: in others. So I will always talk to people in

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Speaker 3: shops and stuff, always.

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Speaker 5: Like the person who runs the shit, yeh.

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Speaker 4: The person making your coffee.

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Speaker 3: But do you say, though I talk about the weather,

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Speaker 3: you start with the boring shit, and before you know it,

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Speaker 3: you'll be in there going So, how was that party

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Speaker 3: on the weekend?

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Speaker 7: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Did you go to that gear?

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Speaker 3: And you've built a tiny little bridge between you that

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Speaker 3: isn't meaningful really, but it just makes the world better

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Speaker 3: there a bit nicer.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: So in the town that I live in, in the

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Speaker 3: morning you go the baker for the coffee. Everybody's talking.

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Speaker 3: No one knows anyone, but they're all just go blah

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Speaker 3: blah blah. I'd had a long conversation with a woman

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Speaker 3: the other day about teaching my daughter to drive. I've

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Speaker 3: never seen herm before I'll never see her again, Like

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Speaker 3: they're just all little bridges out.

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Speaker 4: Into the world.

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Speaker 3: Although she's so right that it's not important and that's

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Speaker 3: not the point of it. You shouldn't go around talking

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Speaker 3: to people because like, hey, it's important. You should do

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Speaker 3: it just to be a human, But it is one

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Speaker 3: of the quickest ways to get you out of a bubble.

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Speaker 3: Like if you only ever talk to people who you

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Speaker 3: know really well, you're much less likely to ever kind

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Speaker 3: of understand anyone else's point of view, even in a

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Speaker 3: tiny thing. I'm not suggesting you go in and you

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Speaker 3: start going so I ran. Yeah, not that, but just

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Speaker 3: you know, all those tiny conversations you have with people

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Speaker 3: you bump into, like are more likely to show you

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Speaker 3: that other people's experiences aren't yours, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like exactly what you said, Claire. It

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Speaker 2: is a generation thing, Like I've noticed my parents are

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Speaker 2: really good at small talk and I just kind of

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Speaker 2: sit there and like listen in. But I also think

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Speaker 2: it's a culture thing. I notice also Americans are really

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Speaker 2: good up and I think that's because all of them

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Speaker 2: do it. Like if you're sitting on a subway in

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Speaker 2: New York, in America, everyone's talking to everyone and they're

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Speaker 2: all strangers. However, if you were just sitting a train

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Speaker 2: in Australia, a stranger would start to ask you questions.

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Speaker 2: You know everyone else is listening in on that conversations

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Speaker 2: because it's so rare for it to happen.

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Speaker 4: I think it depends.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure that everyone on the subway in New

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Speaker 3: York is talking to each other like more Americans.

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Speaker 2: But it's not weird if they do.

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Speaker 3: Americans have fewer boundaries. What I remember, it was a

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Speaker 3: young person traveling in the States and I was an

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Speaker 3: English person very much then before I live in Australia.

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Speaker 3: It's like they would just ask really personal questions. Now

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Speaker 3: I'm not advocating for that. They had no boundary about

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Speaker 3: jumping straight in with the whole, like so your situation,

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Speaker 3: are you married?

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Speaker 2: Do you have children?

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Speaker 3: Like they're like Americans are really good at that. I'm

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Speaker 3: not advocating for that necessarily. It's just politeness, right, English

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Speaker 3: people talking about cultural stereotypes. We're very good at small talk,

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Speaker 3: but only in a very like oh how about that rain, Like.

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Speaker 2: We're really good at that stuff. You know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: I think you're right about generational. I think it's one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent true, because do you remember Claire. Even when

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Speaker 3: I first started working with you guys, I remember, like

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Speaker 3: Claire and Jesse, when they came to work at Mama Mia,

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Speaker 3: they would freak out when you ask them how they're

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Speaker 3: weekend was in the kitchen.

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Speaker 4: What do you want from me?

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Speaker 2: I don't want anything. I'm just being polite.

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Speaker 5: And I wouldn't do it either, because I was just

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Speaker 5: and I think generally I do this in life, and

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Speaker 5: I'm only becoming aware of how it comes across. I'm

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Speaker 5: just in my own head. So when I turned up

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Speaker 5: to work, I'd be thinking, Oh, what am I going

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Speaker 5: to pitch? We've got to stand up? What am I

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Speaker 5: going to write today? And so I wasn't thinking of

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Speaker 5: asking anybody else how they were, And when somebody asked me,

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Speaker 5: I was shocked. But I think one thing I thought

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Speaker 5: when I read this article was I wonder if one

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Speaker 5: of the things contributing to this is our kind of

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Speaker 5: cultural conversation about what is offensive and what is not

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Speaker 5: right to say to people, and therefore we feel like

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Speaker 5: there's less room for mistakes. And I think this in

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Speaker 5: terms of small talk, but also just in conversation with

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Speaker 5: people you might not know that well where we've got

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Speaker 5: really strict boundaries. I know that I've absorbed so much

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Speaker 5: about what not to say to someone who's pregnant, what

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Speaker 5: not to say to somebody who might be grieving, what

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Speaker 5: not to say to somebody at work, and then you

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Speaker 5: go to say something, you're so paralyzed by the thought

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Speaker 5: you might offend them that you don't say anything. And

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Speaker 5: that's a million times worse when the fact is, sometimes

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Speaker 5: somebody can come up to you and in Poplar when

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Speaker 5: you're bloody pregnant, people say all sorts of things and

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Speaker 5: you don't really care. Like sometimes they'll say something quite

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Speaker 5: like oh you're big, and then five seconds later the

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Speaker 5: conversation has changed. Like an inappropriate comment can lead to

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Speaker 5: quite a meaningful interaction. You kind of have to be

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Speaker 5: a bit more forgiving.

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Speaker 2: I think, what do you think about that? And I

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Speaker 2: think it's true. But I also think that there's a

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Speaker 2: difference between doing small talk with people you know versus

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Speaker 2: doing small talk with strangers. And I think I'm quite

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Speaker 2: good at small talk with people I know, because I

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Speaker 2: feel safe in that. What's annoying is that if I'm

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Speaker 2: with people I know who know me as the talker

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Speaker 2: of the group, and then we're in a different environment.

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Speaker 2: They expect me to do the work of being the

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Speaker 2: small talker with strangers, and I hate that people who

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Speaker 2: are talkers know that as well. They know they're the

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Speaker 2: talker of the group and they have to take that on.

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Speaker 2: That's what I don't like. I also know that there

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Speaker 2: are certain situations where I definitely don't want small talk.

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Speaker 2: If I'm getting massage, yeah yeah, talk to me. I

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Speaker 2: once had a missus who was massaging me, and you

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Speaker 2: know when they go to that like where it's like

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Speaker 2: your lower back, but it's kind of your bum and

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Speaker 2: you kind of have to be like okay because it's

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Speaker 2: like you get tents over there too. And she was

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Speaker 2: massaging my bum and she was like, whoa, your skin's

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Speaker 2: so much lighter on this part of that. Oh no,

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Speaker 2: She's like, what is your ethnicity? And I'm like, no time.

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Speaker 3: So that strays into like inappropriate things, right, because being

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Speaker 3: a fan of small talk doesn't mean that there's like

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Speaker 3: an open door for you to just say inappropriate shit.

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Speaker 3: Like I think you should pay attention to what's inappropriate.

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Speaker 3: But I think a lot of people can tell that, right.

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Speaker 3: I was thinking about my kids. I encourage my kids

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Speaker 3: to talk to strangers, you know what I mean, not

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Speaker 3: in a dangerous way, but it is literally something you

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Speaker 3: have to teach them how to do. So go and

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Speaker 3: ask the guy where the water is. You know what

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Speaker 3: I mean, you're in the sushi place, whatever, Go and

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Speaker 3: ask the guy where.

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Speaker 5: The water is.

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Speaker 2: No, absolutely, not no, absolute. I don't do that as

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Speaker 2: a twenty nine.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, go and ask the guy where the water is.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 3: But what I notice is that my kids have quite

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Speaker 3: a good radar. So my teenage daughter has quite a

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Speaker 3: good radar for if a stranger starts talking to her

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Speaker 3: on the train or whatever, if they're.

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Speaker 5: Creepy exactly because they.

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Speaker 4: Can tell that.

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Speaker 3: And she's not bad at small talk because she works

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Speaker 3: in a shop, right, like you have to. Hospitality and

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Speaker 3: retail is very good for teaching you how to just

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Speaker 3: be like and be polite and be nice, but have boundaries.

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Speaker 3: And I think that that's really interesting. Even though she's

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Speaker 3: kind of been trained in small talk to a wait

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Speaker 3: a point, it's certainly not to a point where she

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Speaker 3: has to be polite to someone who's being creepy to her.

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Speaker 2: There's a line there.

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Speaker 3: But you know that, right, Like, if a guy starts

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Speaker 3: talking to you in the lift or in the coffee queue,

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Speaker 3: you can tell if he's talking to you in a

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Speaker 3: creepy way or if he's just trying to be a

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Speaker 3: decent person, don't you think.

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Speaker 2: Eventually, not always from the get go, Like sometimes you

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Speaker 2: can be deep into a conversation and then just swings

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Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, you're a bad person.

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Speaker 5: Well, this article is quite forgiving of the fact that,

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Speaker 5: but there are going to be times when you're not

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Speaker 5: in the mood. There are going to be times when

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Speaker 5: you open a conversation with somebody else who is not

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Speaker 5: in the mood, and the stakes are not that high,

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Speaker 5: Like it's okay if you go to talk to someone

347
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Speaker 5: and they don't respond, not the end of the world.

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Speaker 5: And if somebody goes short to you, you are not

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Speaker 5: expected to always be open to speaking to them. I

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Speaker 5: think it is very valid, but a lot of women

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Speaker 5: who have had scary experiences with men. I remember being

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Speaker 5: in my twenties and I had had a very scary

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Speaker 5: experience with a man, and then a week later a

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Speaker 5: guy started talking to me on the train, and I

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Speaker 5: was so terrified, and he got off at my stop,

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Speaker 5: and I was paranoid that he was gonna because he

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Speaker 5: was still chatting to me, and I was like, what

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Speaker 5: if you know where I live and that's not about him,

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Speaker 5: that's about me. But it's also valid, like that is

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Speaker 5: a valid boundary. So I think there's so much there.

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Speaker 5: But it is a really important skill because I notice

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Speaker 5: sometimes with young people, and I'm very empathetic because I

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00:16:03,834 --> 00:16:06,994
Speaker 5: was the same the young people who don't know how

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Speaker 5: to make malfunction.

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Speaker 3: Myself won't do it, but that's that's for different reasons,

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Speaker 3: and he gets very upset when we try and make

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Speaker 3: him do it. But I think even the massage example,

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Speaker 3: sometimes if you're.

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Speaker 2: In the mood and you like them, you.

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Speaker 3: Come out of that kind of interaction with like an

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Speaker 3: amazing story, not necessarily a story to tell people, but like, wow,

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Speaker 3: I learned all about their life and where their kids,

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Speaker 3: what their kids are doing, and how many jobs are

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Speaker 3: Like I think it's a window into other people's worlds.

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Speaker 3: And maybe I like collecting those, maybe because I'm a writer,

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Speaker 3: maybe because I'm nosy. I like collecting stories from people

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Speaker 3: I don't know, because otherwise you just in this everybody

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Speaker 3: knows everyone. The place I'm terrible at small talk, which

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00:16:43,914 --> 00:16:45,514
Speaker 3: is ironic, is work functions.

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Speaker 4: I hate them.

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Speaker 3: Like if I'm at A, I mean obviously, if I'm

382
00:16:49,314 --> 00:16:51,034
Speaker 3: with my friends, it's good and I do it all that.

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00:16:51,074 --> 00:16:53,314
Speaker 3: I've been doing it for decades, so I can do it.

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Speaker 3: But I find that much harder, Like.

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Speaker 2: Holly, here's Benny. Benny works at BLA. You work at blah.

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Speaker 5: Oh really, I get really, I get really nervous. The

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Speaker 5: people I think are the best at small talk who

388
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Speaker 5: I always have the best conversations with a makeup artists,

389
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Speaker 5: oh so good when before I always think before you go,

390
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Speaker 5: if you ever do television and the makeup artist does

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Speaker 5: your makeup beforehand, I'm always like, this is a better

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Speaker 5: conversation than what we're gonna have because you're a vibe

393
00:17:24,474 --> 00:17:26,954
Speaker 5: and they always just have and I feel very comfortable

394
00:17:26,954 --> 00:17:30,114
Speaker 5: being like, what celebrities have you done makeup for? And

395
00:17:30,154 --> 00:17:32,513
Speaker 5: what were they like? And the last makeup artist I

396
00:17:32,554 --> 00:17:35,354
Speaker 5: talked to did the makeup for a bride on Mauth

397
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Speaker 5: and it was just a really lovely Let's keep this

398
00:17:39,754 --> 00:17:41,754
Speaker 5: small going forever.

399
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Speaker 3: I'd love to know if any out louders have like

400
00:17:44,074 --> 00:17:48,354
Speaker 3: a go to small talk question because we've talked about

401
00:17:48,354 --> 00:17:50,513
Speaker 3: that before sometimes on the show, whether or.

402
00:17:50,514 --> 00:17:53,354
Speaker 4: Not you should say, so, what are you passionate about?

403
00:17:53,434 --> 00:17:54,674
Speaker 5: Right watching?

404
00:17:54,914 --> 00:17:57,994
Speaker 3: Like, I think those kind of fake small talk questions

405
00:17:58,034 --> 00:17:59,914
Speaker 3: are really hard. I'd love to know if anyone's got

406
00:17:59,914 --> 00:18:01,594
Speaker 3: an absolutely I actually saw.

407
00:18:01,474 --> 00:18:04,594
Speaker 2: In an out loudist thread for icebreaker questions, one of

408
00:18:04,634 --> 00:18:06,874
Speaker 2: them was what's the tiniest hill you'll die on?

409
00:18:07,194 --> 00:18:07,354
Speaker 7: Oh?

410
00:18:07,354 --> 00:18:10,234
Speaker 5: I love it. I love it that oh, because it

411
00:18:10,274 --> 00:18:13,154
Speaker 5: allows the person the opportunity to be funny, yeah and mean.

412
00:18:13,914 --> 00:18:18,194
Speaker 3: Sometimes in a moment, I'm going to introduce you to

413
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Speaker 3: a thirteen year old ce.

414
00:18:26,034 --> 00:18:29,074
Speaker 7: Out loud as it's MEA and it's Friday. How good

415
00:18:29,074 --> 00:18:33,074
Speaker 7: are we feeling? I am not often summoned by name

416
00:18:33,474 --> 00:18:37,194
Speaker 7: by an out louder in a dilemma, but Vanessa, who

417
00:18:37,314 --> 00:18:40,674
Speaker 7: is wondering whether she should give up her job to

418
00:18:40,714 --> 00:18:44,594
Speaker 7: support her family, asked our advice and name checked me

419
00:18:44,914 --> 00:18:48,754
Speaker 7: as someone who she had in her head. And so

420
00:18:49,074 --> 00:18:51,194
Speaker 7: I listened to everything that you had to say in

421
00:18:51,274 --> 00:18:55,874
Speaker 7: the group. I listened to Amelia, Holly and Jesse's conversation

422
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Speaker 7: on the.

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Speaker 2: Show, and I have some thoughts.

424
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Speaker 7: I have some new thoughts I have some possibly controversial thoughts.

425
00:19:03,594 --> 00:19:05,594
Speaker 4: So Amelia and I did a whole.

426
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Speaker 7: Subscriber episode where I have entered the Working Mother Chat.

427
00:19:09,594 --> 00:19:12,553
Speaker 7: It's called Mia Enters the Working Mother Chat. And if

428
00:19:12,554 --> 00:19:14,474
Speaker 7: you want to listen to it right now and you're

429
00:19:14,474 --> 00:19:16,554
Speaker 7: not already a subscriber, follow the link in the show

430
00:19:16,594 --> 00:19:19,754
Speaker 7: notes to hear it immediately and get us in your

431
00:19:19,754 --> 00:19:21,154
Speaker 7: ears five days a week.

432
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Speaker 3: So there's a new, super cool skincare brand sucking up

433
00:19:26,554 --> 00:19:29,594
Speaker 3: a lot of attention online and I'm telling you about

434
00:19:29,594 --> 00:19:33,994
Speaker 3: it because it's CEO is thirteen years old. It's not

435
00:19:34,074 --> 00:19:36,354
Speaker 3: news that the target market for skincare has been getting

436
00:19:36,394 --> 00:19:38,394
Speaker 3: younger and younger and younger. We've talked about it a

437
00:19:38,394 --> 00:19:41,074
Speaker 3: few times, and there are many opinions about that, about

438
00:19:41,074 --> 00:19:43,754
Speaker 3: whether we should be encouraging children to smear the late

439
00:19:43,794 --> 00:19:45,274
Speaker 3: stage capitalism all over their.

440
00:19:45,194 --> 00:19:48,314
Speaker 2: Faces, etc. But it was probably the.

441
00:19:48,234 --> 00:19:52,074
Speaker 3: Next logical conclusion that there would be companies making skincare

442
00:19:52,554 --> 00:19:57,754
Speaker 3: for kids fronted by kits and so meet Coco Grandison.

443
00:19:57,874 --> 00:19:59,994
Speaker 3: Here is a little snippet of Coco.

444
00:19:59,954 --> 00:20:02,354
Speaker 6: Ended up damaging of pugs that were way too harsh

445
00:20:02,434 --> 00:20:04,834
Speaker 6: on my skin. That's when it hit me. I couldn't

446
00:20:04,834 --> 00:20:07,914
Speaker 6: be the only one kids, I guess want skincare actual

447
00:20:07,994 --> 00:20:11,714
Speaker 6: roots wasn't harsh, something gentle, fun and actually made for us.

448
00:20:11,754 --> 00:20:14,994
Speaker 6: So I thought, we're not creating it myself. But start's

449
00:20:15,034 --> 00:20:17,594
Speaker 6: chest as dreaming turning to a real brand. I well,

450
00:20:17,594 --> 00:20:21,874
Speaker 6: at school, I've taken meetings, mom's car keeping classes, friends,

451
00:20:22,034 --> 00:20:24,394
Speaker 6: followball and started building yesterday with my family.

452
00:20:24,874 --> 00:20:31,194
Speaker 3: Right, So a quick explain. Grandison comes from a fancy

453
00:20:31,354 --> 00:20:34,754
Speaker 3: la family. Her dad's a Hollywood entertainment lawyer who represents

454
00:20:34,794 --> 00:20:37,674
Speaker 3: people like Asap Rocky Right. Her mum was a clinical

455
00:20:37,714 --> 00:20:40,714
Speaker 3: researcher before she had her three daughters. According to a

456
00:20:40,794 --> 00:20:43,554
Speaker 3: profile in the Coco was on a plane. I think

457
00:20:43,554 --> 00:20:45,074
Speaker 3: we can just leave. What kind of plane?

458
00:20:46,074 --> 00:20:48,274
Speaker 5: It just sounds like she was having more than small daughter.

459
00:20:50,034 --> 00:20:52,994
Speaker 3: Coco was on a plane with a big businessman friend

460
00:20:52,994 --> 00:20:55,994
Speaker 3: of her parents and talking about how someone should make

461
00:20:55,994 --> 00:20:58,354
Speaker 3: a kid's skin care line that kids actually want to use,

462
00:20:58,754 --> 00:21:01,714
Speaker 3: And apparently the big businessman friends said, I want you

463
00:21:01,754 --> 00:21:03,714
Speaker 3: to have some ideas by the time we land right

464
00:21:04,114 --> 00:21:07,834
Speaker 3: next minute. Somehow, Coco and the Grandisons are working with

465
00:21:07,954 --> 00:21:12,154
Speaker 3: Ron Robinson, who's the cosmetic chemist who helped build road

466
00:21:12,234 --> 00:21:15,034
Speaker 3: for Hailey Beaver so he's a very big deal. He's

467
00:21:15,074 --> 00:21:17,474
Speaker 3: the guy you want if you're starting a skincare line

468
00:21:17,474 --> 00:21:18,033
Speaker 3: next weekend.

469
00:21:18,434 --> 00:21:19,874
Speaker 4: You want to get Ron on the phone.

470
00:21:19,994 --> 00:21:21,833
Speaker 2: If she can, Coco can give me those details.

471
00:21:22,234 --> 00:21:26,074
Speaker 3: Sally a brand was born and now thirteen year old

472
00:21:26,154 --> 00:21:29,674
Speaker 3: Coco is a boss lady. Did you two read this

473
00:21:29,834 --> 00:21:33,114
Speaker 3: profile of the latest beauty girl boss and what did

474
00:21:33,154 --> 00:21:35,394
Speaker 3: you think about Ceo teenagers?

475
00:21:35,434 --> 00:21:40,354
Speaker 5: I'm completely obsessed. She is her mother's boss and their

476
00:21:40,434 --> 00:21:45,314
Speaker 5: sea Sweet is the car. Just her vibe is hilarious.

477
00:21:45,354 --> 00:21:48,273
Speaker 5: I mean, I do want it said that it is

478
00:21:48,314 --> 00:21:51,834
Speaker 5: a genius business move to have a thirteen year old

479
00:21:51,874 --> 00:21:54,313
Speaker 5: as the face of this and all over the instagram

480
00:21:54,474 --> 00:21:57,114
Speaker 5: is her and she's beautiful. That's no coincidence that she

481
00:21:57,194 --> 00:22:01,154
Speaker 5: looks the way she does. But this is very much

482
00:22:01,194 --> 00:22:04,514
Speaker 5: a puppeteer situation. Ron's the big dog.

483
00:22:04,554 --> 00:22:06,434
Speaker 4: I reckon, I reckon, Mom's the big dog.

484
00:22:06,594 --> 00:22:08,634
Speaker 5: Yeah, mom, mom.

485
00:22:08,834 --> 00:22:13,513
Speaker 2: I believed everything. I read this and I immediately felt

486
00:22:13,554 --> 00:22:17,834
Speaker 2: like a huge failure. No, no, I did, and it

487
00:22:17,914 --> 00:22:20,394
Speaker 2: made me think beause not being born to those parents

488
00:22:20,394 --> 00:22:23,634
Speaker 2: in LA, not being on my private jet making up

489
00:22:23,674 --> 00:22:28,074
Speaker 2: business plans. I'm in that generation where, like gen Z

490
00:22:28,514 --> 00:22:32,194
Speaker 2: younger millennial where half my friends are working for companies

491
00:22:32,274 --> 00:22:35,553
Speaker 2: and the other half are doing their own thing. And

492
00:22:35,594 --> 00:22:38,874
Speaker 2: what's really annoying is that the half that are doing

493
00:22:38,914 --> 00:22:42,754
Speaker 2: their own thing are really successful and are really good

494
00:22:42,754 --> 00:22:45,194
Speaker 2: at it. And it's gotten to the stage where if

495
00:22:45,234 --> 00:22:47,554
Speaker 2: I talk to someone under the age of twenty five,

496
00:22:47,954 --> 00:22:51,154
Speaker 2: they're either working on their own brand and are like

497
00:22:51,194 --> 00:22:53,834
Speaker 2: trying to move into that full time, or in their

498
00:22:53,914 --> 00:22:56,354
Speaker 2: head they're basically saying And I had this conversation with

499
00:22:56,394 --> 00:22:59,114
Speaker 2: a younger cousin of mine and he said, I'll work

500
00:22:59,114 --> 00:23:00,754
Speaker 2: at this company for a year, but then I have

501
00:23:00,834 --> 00:23:02,273
Speaker 2: to do my own thing, Like you don't want to

502
00:23:02,274 --> 00:23:03,234
Speaker 2: be staying in a company.

503
00:23:03,354 --> 00:23:07,353
Speaker 3: Yeah, So being an entrepreneur is now exceptionally aspiration, right,

504
00:23:07,354 --> 00:23:09,154
Speaker 3: whereas I think it used to be a little bit like, oh,

505
00:23:09,274 --> 00:23:10,914
Speaker 3: not very secure, not very safe.

506
00:23:11,034 --> 00:23:12,834
Speaker 2: Da da da da dah. But they don't actually know

507
00:23:12,874 --> 00:23:14,474
Speaker 2: what they want to do. They just want to do

508
00:23:14,554 --> 00:23:17,154
Speaker 2: their own thing and they'll eventually figure it out. And

509
00:23:17,274 --> 00:23:19,354
Speaker 2: I do feel a bit sad that I feel like

510
00:23:19,394 --> 00:23:22,313
Speaker 2: we're going to get a whole generation of young people

511
00:23:22,354 --> 00:23:26,994
Speaker 2: in the workforce not really experiencing the workforce. And I

512
00:23:27,034 --> 00:23:28,834
Speaker 2: talk about MoMA Mia all the time and talk about

513
00:23:28,874 --> 00:23:30,833
Speaker 2: how I made my best friends here. And I know

514
00:23:31,194 --> 00:23:34,194
Speaker 2: with my friends who have moved to work on their

515
00:23:34,234 --> 00:23:36,554
Speaker 2: own brands and have moved to freelance, the one thing

516
00:23:36,554 --> 00:23:39,754
Speaker 2: they miss is like friendships. They benefited from making friendships

517
00:23:39,794 --> 00:23:41,874
Speaker 2: when they started in the workforce, but now they don't

518
00:23:41,874 --> 00:23:42,674
Speaker 2: make any friends anymore.

519
00:23:42,714 --> 00:23:44,474
Speaker 3: Because I have a lot of common with Coco because

520
00:23:44,474 --> 00:23:46,553
Speaker 3: she said she was talking to beauty influencers at an

521
00:23:46,594 --> 00:23:50,474
Speaker 3: event and they didn't go to school anymore. They're being homeschool,

522
00:23:50,514 --> 00:23:52,474
Speaker 3: which we'll get to in a minute, and she was like, oh, no,

523
00:23:52,514 --> 00:23:54,314
Speaker 3: I don't want to do that because of my friends.

524
00:23:54,394 --> 00:23:57,594
Speaker 3: She's on Flapo, so I still want to go to school.

525
00:23:57,674 --> 00:23:58,194
Speaker 2: She's a girl.

526
00:23:58,314 --> 00:24:01,794
Speaker 3: She does want to retire at nineteen though she's eighteen

527
00:24:01,874 --> 00:24:03,754
Speaker 3: is too old to be selling skincare.

528
00:24:03,354 --> 00:24:04,594
Speaker 2: At kids, which is like wow.

529
00:24:05,634 --> 00:24:08,033
Speaker 3: And then she wants to go to college, and then

530
00:24:08,074 --> 00:24:09,474
Speaker 3: after college she's going to retire.

531
00:24:09,634 --> 00:24:12,114
Speaker 2: Yeah. I made a list of things that Coco is

532
00:24:12,154 --> 00:24:14,914
Speaker 2: going to be missing out on for doing her own and.

533
00:24:14,834 --> 00:24:18,234
Speaker 5: That's a great way to reframe. It's like gratitude for

534
00:24:18,354 --> 00:24:20,033
Speaker 5: your life instead of Coco.

535
00:24:20,354 --> 00:24:22,634
Speaker 2: Some of them are nice, some of them not so nice.

536
00:24:22,674 --> 00:24:25,674
Speaker 2: So also including friendships, having to travel to the office

537
00:24:25,674 --> 00:24:28,954
Speaker 2: when it's done. The storming, that's an adventure. Yeah, it's

538
00:24:28,954 --> 00:24:34,033
Speaker 2: an adventure. Forgetting your lunch at home and buying an

539
00:24:34,074 --> 00:24:37,554
Speaker 2: eighteen dollars sandwich. You've got to experience that at least once.

540
00:24:37,754 --> 00:24:38,474
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

541
00:24:38,594 --> 00:24:40,794
Speaker 2: The fear of realizing you've forgotten to put your leave

542
00:24:40,874 --> 00:24:45,354
Speaker 2: in and you're already playing. Oh I like where are you?

543
00:24:45,434 --> 00:24:48,074
Speaker 5: Yeah, and Coco is like, wait, I am my boss,

544
00:24:48,074 --> 00:24:48,434
Speaker 5: I am.

545
00:24:48,314 --> 00:24:52,034
Speaker 2: My boss, and this is my own plan. The fear

546
00:24:52,154 --> 00:24:54,514
Speaker 2: of having to call in sick two days in a row.

547
00:24:54,754 --> 00:24:57,994
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I know, and sound sick enough.

548
00:24:58,194 --> 00:24:59,594
Speaker 5: Yes, Oh yeah.

549
00:24:59,674 --> 00:25:02,793
Speaker 2: Pizza parties. You don't get pizza parties in by yourself

550
00:25:03,194 --> 00:25:04,554
Speaker 2: getting drunk with the account's team.

551
00:25:04,874 --> 00:25:06,594
Speaker 4: Pizza is not good for the skin babes.

552
00:25:06,674 --> 00:25:09,114
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm sure, sure, I know.

553
00:25:09,194 --> 00:25:11,553
Speaker 2: Coco is going to develop some sort of like chili

554
00:25:11,634 --> 00:25:14,674
Speaker 2: oil but for the skin, and it's plumping, but your

555
00:25:14,674 --> 00:25:15,634
Speaker 2: whole skin plumps up.

556
00:25:15,634 --> 00:25:16,513
Speaker 5: Oh my god. Stop.

557
00:25:16,514 --> 00:25:18,714
Speaker 2: And she's so smart and rehearsing on how to ask

558
00:25:18,794 --> 00:25:20,874
Speaker 2: for a pay rise, like I don't know what these

559
00:25:20,914 --> 00:25:22,474
Speaker 2: kids are going to do when it comes to pay rise.

560
00:25:22,634 --> 00:25:24,634
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's not just Coco. I do want

561
00:25:24,634 --> 00:25:26,794
Speaker 3: to talk a bit about the corporatization of kids, right,

562
00:25:26,834 --> 00:25:29,553
Speaker 3: because one of the things about this is obviously Coco's

563
00:25:29,554 --> 00:25:32,194
Speaker 3: from a very specific family, and so is the example

564
00:25:32,234 --> 00:25:34,234
Speaker 3: I'm about to give you two. But one thing I

565
00:25:34,314 --> 00:25:36,994
Speaker 3: noticed a lot when I listen or read interviews with

566
00:25:37,114 --> 00:25:40,314
Speaker 3: kind of let's call them the billionaire people, like the

567
00:25:40,674 --> 00:25:45,114
Speaker 3: properly fancy tech people, Hollywood people, you know, is they

568
00:25:45,154 --> 00:25:47,674
Speaker 3: are not and they probably never have. But they're certainly

569
00:25:47,714 --> 00:25:50,394
Speaker 3: not just sending their kids to the local high school anymore,

570
00:25:50,434 --> 00:25:52,154
Speaker 3: where they're sitting there learning about Second Mold War.

571
00:25:52,274 --> 00:25:52,674
Speaker 4: Like you.

572
00:25:52,714 --> 00:25:55,234
Speaker 3: There used to be Hollywood High where literally celebrities did

573
00:25:55,274 --> 00:25:58,234
Speaker 3: send their kids. But I was listening to Kim Kardashian

574
00:25:58,274 --> 00:26:00,874
Speaker 3: talking to her sister about homeschooling their kids and about

575
00:26:00,874 --> 00:26:04,513
Speaker 3: how they tailor their education to their passions, right, And

576
00:26:04,554 --> 00:26:08,634
Speaker 3: I think that although obviously Kim Kardashian is the relatable celebrity, ever,

577
00:26:08,754 --> 00:26:11,553
Speaker 3: I think there is something here about a lot of

578
00:26:11,594 --> 00:26:14,434
Speaker 3: parents in the age of AI and as you say,

579
00:26:14,514 --> 00:26:16,834
Speaker 3: that drive everyone wants to be their own boss, Like, well,

580
00:26:16,834 --> 00:26:19,034
Speaker 3: why would I send them to learn facts at school

581
00:26:19,114 --> 00:26:21,394
Speaker 3: when the robots know all the facts? Google knows all

582
00:26:21,394 --> 00:26:22,874
Speaker 3: the facts. Here's just a little bit of what Kim

583
00:26:22,914 --> 00:26:23,914
Speaker 3: Kardashian said.

584
00:26:24,154 --> 00:26:26,594
Speaker 1: She has a brand building class. You know, it's like

585
00:26:26,634 --> 00:26:31,594
Speaker 1: an actual course and a curriculum of learning, fully interactive learning.

586
00:26:31,794 --> 00:26:34,273
Speaker 1: And so she wanted she had an idea of making

587
00:26:34,314 --> 00:26:36,554
Speaker 1: hats and making jewelry and all the things she wanted

588
00:26:36,594 --> 00:26:38,754
Speaker 1: to make. So we made it a course and she

589
00:26:38,914 --> 00:26:40,714
Speaker 1: has to do the web design, and she has to

590
00:26:40,754 --> 00:26:43,234
Speaker 1: do the budgeting, and she has to go to the

591
00:26:43,354 --> 00:26:46,194
Speaker 1: stores and get materials and sewing, and we do like

592
00:26:46,274 --> 00:26:49,594
Speaker 1: full fashion courses, and she goes to in the summers,

593
00:26:49,634 --> 00:26:53,714
Speaker 1: like to Fit in New York and goes to fashion Camp.

594
00:26:54,034 --> 00:26:57,714
Speaker 3: To be clear, Kim Kardashian was talking about North, who

595
00:26:57,914 --> 00:26:58,474
Speaker 3: is twelve.

596
00:26:58,794 --> 00:26:59,634
Speaker 5: North is my idol.

597
00:26:59,714 --> 00:27:04,274
Speaker 3: Klass thoughts, Okay, thoughts on teaching kids to be brands,

598
00:27:04,674 --> 00:27:05,514
Speaker 3: whether that's smart.

599
00:27:05,674 --> 00:27:11,834
Speaker 5: Two thoughts. One, this isn't actually as revolutionary as it sounds,

600
00:27:11,954 --> 00:27:15,314
Speaker 5: because there has been a movement in education over the

601
00:27:15,434 --> 00:27:18,594
Speaker 5: last i want to say decade towards project based learning

602
00:27:18,874 --> 00:27:21,513
Speaker 5: and project based learning is they do it at my

603
00:27:21,594 --> 00:27:24,114
Speaker 5: dad's school. If anyone ever wants to talk about it,

604
00:27:24,154 --> 00:27:26,714
Speaker 5: he can cheat ear off about it. But it's basically,

605
00:27:27,114 --> 00:27:31,194
Speaker 5: there's like four kids, we're going to build a robot.

606
00:27:31,674 --> 00:27:34,594
Speaker 5: And it's not that you're in science or maths or

607
00:27:34,674 --> 00:27:37,793
Speaker 5: history or whatever. But the idea is you have this

608
00:27:37,874 --> 00:27:40,154
Speaker 5: project to complete and you need to bring in all

609
00:27:40,194 --> 00:27:42,594
Speaker 5: the skills from all these different disciplines in order to

610
00:27:42,634 --> 00:27:46,874
Speaker 5: do it. And Dad's school performs very very well academically.

611
00:27:46,354 --> 00:27:47,594
Speaker 4: And that's what Naught's doing.

612
00:27:47,754 --> 00:27:51,754
Speaker 5: Yes, so it's not actually as absurd as that is

613
00:27:52,354 --> 00:27:55,834
Speaker 5: the idea of learning through a project. And I guess

614
00:27:55,834 --> 00:27:57,914
Speaker 5: the thing I really like about it as well when

615
00:27:57,994 --> 00:28:02,154
Speaker 5: Dad talks about it, is you can find your little

616
00:28:02,154 --> 00:28:04,514
Speaker 5: bit of passion to get you motivated to do the thing,

617
00:28:04,834 --> 00:28:07,273
Speaker 5: like there will be something about building a robot that

618
00:28:07,354 --> 00:28:11,234
Speaker 5: you find particularly fascinating. But the thing about the brand

619
00:28:11,314 --> 00:28:14,834
Speaker 5: building and the thing about Coco, I think you had

620
00:28:14,874 --> 00:28:20,394
Speaker 5: such a good point, m that there's something very individualistic

621
00:28:21,274 --> 00:28:25,354
Speaker 5: and that's a little bit scary going forward that because

622
00:28:25,434 --> 00:28:27,554
Speaker 5: I guess I'll bring in my personal experience here. I'm

623
00:28:27,594 --> 00:28:31,234
Speaker 5: the CEO of Clere Stevens Creative you are, I'm a

624
00:28:31,274 --> 00:28:34,313
Speaker 5: freelancer who sometimes refers to myself as an entrepreneur, and

625
00:28:34,354 --> 00:28:38,154
Speaker 5: sometimes I like to say Cleare Stevens. Creative doesn't open December.

626
00:28:39,914 --> 00:28:42,514
Speaker 5: It's We're closed in December, and it's like, clear, did

627
00:28:42,554 --> 00:28:46,594
Speaker 5: you work this month? And I'm like no. But it

628
00:28:46,674 --> 00:28:50,394
Speaker 5: is lonely and there are parts like for me, that

629
00:28:50,714 --> 00:28:54,954
Speaker 5: you absolutely love about it, but it is very It

630
00:28:55,034 --> 00:28:59,034
Speaker 5: sometimes feels really egotistical, like you're not doing things.

631
00:28:59,114 --> 00:28:59,714
Speaker 2: A lot of it.

632
00:28:59,994 --> 00:29:03,714
Speaker 5: You have to reframe your mind to think what am

633
00:29:03,794 --> 00:29:08,114
Speaker 5: I doing that benefits me? Whereas when you're in the workplace,

634
00:29:08,514 --> 00:29:11,274
Speaker 5: my default and maybe it is good that I'm doing

635
00:29:11,354 --> 00:29:14,754
Speaker 5: this because it's challenging my default, which was I'll do

636
00:29:14,834 --> 00:29:18,234
Speaker 5: everything for everyone else and like kind of leave myself

637
00:29:18,594 --> 00:29:21,474
Speaker 5: just flailing in the background because I've wanted to people please.

638
00:29:22,034 --> 00:29:24,434
Speaker 5: But that's what I worry about with Coco and with

639
00:29:24,554 --> 00:29:28,954
Speaker 5: North that you know, brand building great skill, but how

640
00:29:29,034 --> 00:29:33,074
Speaker 5: about relating to other people and how about contributing to

641
00:29:33,154 --> 00:29:36,314
Speaker 5: society in a way that doesn't directly benefit you.

642
00:29:36,754 --> 00:29:39,314
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting because in this profile they were talking

643
00:29:39,314 --> 00:29:41,674
Speaker 3: about how because I think the brand has just launched,

644
00:29:41,674 --> 00:29:44,034
Speaker 3: which is why there's all these think pieces about it

645
00:29:44,074 --> 00:29:46,594
Speaker 3: and interviews, but they were talking about the pop up

646
00:29:46,634 --> 00:29:49,074
Speaker 3: that they had at that trendy shopping center in La

647
00:29:49,114 --> 00:29:51,914
Speaker 3: the Growth, and Coco had this hard lesson of like,

648
00:29:51,954 --> 00:29:53,954
Speaker 3: it's kind of embarrassing to be standing at a pop

649
00:29:53,994 --> 00:29:56,314
Speaker 3: up and like saying to people, back to small talk,

650
00:29:56,674 --> 00:29:58,514
Speaker 3: saying to people, hey, do you want to try my

651
00:29:59,074 --> 00:30:00,914
Speaker 3: you know, my face wash? And the friends who don't

652
00:30:00,914 --> 00:30:02,714
Speaker 3: really get it, like why aren't you in Sepphort, Why

653
00:30:02,714 --> 00:30:05,434
Speaker 3: aren't these products in Sephora already? And then some people

654
00:30:05,474 --> 00:30:07,634
Speaker 3: didn't turn up for their shift on the pop up thing,

655
00:30:07,714 --> 00:30:08,914
Speaker 3: and she's like, it's so annoying.

656
00:30:08,954 --> 00:30:10,754
Speaker 2: So she's like learning all those things.

657
00:30:11,394 --> 00:30:15,234
Speaker 3: Possibly the most relatable part of thirteen year old CEO.

658
00:30:15,314 --> 00:30:18,074
Speaker 3: Coco is like another thing that a lot of billionaires

659
00:30:18,074 --> 00:30:21,514
Speaker 3: families do. She's not allowed on social media, even though

660
00:30:21,514 --> 00:30:24,434
Speaker 3: her whole business exists there. And actually this business couldn't

661
00:30:24,514 --> 00:30:27,034
Speaker 3: quite exist in Australia because she's a thirteen year old

662
00:30:27,314 --> 00:30:29,434
Speaker 3: selling to other thirteen year olds on social media and

663
00:30:29,474 --> 00:30:30,554
Speaker 3: you can't do that here anymore.

664
00:30:30,714 --> 00:30:32,074
Speaker 2: But she's not allowed on social media.

665
00:30:32,114 --> 00:30:35,834
Speaker 3: So her mom writes the captions and stuff, and then

666
00:30:35,994 --> 00:30:37,354
Speaker 3: Coco gives her feedback.

667
00:30:37,354 --> 00:30:38,394
Speaker 2: And this is the best bit.

668
00:30:38,434 --> 00:30:38,754
Speaker 4: They said.

669
00:30:38,754 --> 00:30:41,074
Speaker 3: They're sitting in their cargoing through them and Coco's like,

670
00:30:41,194 --> 00:30:43,674
Speaker 3: this is great, this is terrible, this is good because

671
00:30:43,714 --> 00:30:44,434
Speaker 3: I posted it.

672
00:30:44,594 --> 00:30:46,234
Speaker 2: Why did you write slay girl?

673
00:30:46,634 --> 00:30:50,314
Speaker 3: You cannot use the laughing emoji mom or the crying emoji,

674
00:30:50,394 --> 00:30:53,274
Speaker 3: or the party had emoji on somebody's birthday or the

675
00:30:53,314 --> 00:30:54,354
Speaker 3: red heart emoji.

676
00:30:54,874 --> 00:30:55,754
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I cried.

677
00:30:56,234 --> 00:30:58,714
Speaker 4: Journalist is like, I asked why.

678
00:30:58,474 --> 00:31:00,994
Speaker 2: And then I realized this was a stupid question. The

679
00:31:01,114 --> 00:31:02,714
Speaker 2: reason is adults don't know.

680
00:31:02,834 --> 00:31:05,554
Speaker 3: And I was like, imagine your thirteen year old kid

681
00:31:05,554 --> 00:31:07,434
Speaker 3: being your boss. I mean, I know, I know a

682
00:31:07,474 --> 00:31:10,074
Speaker 3: lot of teenage parents feel like they're thirteen your kids

683
00:31:10,114 --> 00:31:12,594
Speaker 3: are their boss, or that they're toddlers or their preschoolers

684
00:31:12,634 --> 00:31:13,234
Speaker 3: are their boss.

685
00:31:13,234 --> 00:31:15,594
Speaker 2: But this literally is. And she's just like, Mom, you're

686
00:31:15,674 --> 00:31:17,714
Speaker 2: ruining the brand. You're so embarrassing.

687
00:31:20,434 --> 00:31:24,314
Speaker 5: We're all familiar with the term adolescence. It's what makes

688
00:31:24,554 --> 00:31:31,314
Speaker 5: thirteen year old girls become skincare. But that's not the

689
00:31:31,394 --> 00:31:37,434
Speaker 5: only profound stage of human development where we experience biological, psychological,

690
00:31:37,554 --> 00:31:41,994
Speaker 5: and emotional growth. When you become a mother, your brain rewires,

691
00:31:42,234 --> 00:31:45,914
Speaker 5: your body changes, your identity transforms, and the word for

692
00:31:45,954 --> 00:31:51,754
Speaker 5: that process, that neurological reorganization, is matrescence. So I've been

693
00:31:51,914 --> 00:31:55,594
Speaker 5: familiar with this term for a while because we've covered

694
00:31:55,634 --> 00:31:59,754
Speaker 5: it at Mummeya. And actually I became really interested in

695
00:31:59,794 --> 00:32:03,314
Speaker 5: it in about the week before I gave birth because

696
00:32:03,354 --> 00:32:07,074
Speaker 5: I had this weird feeling of being between two stay

697
00:32:07,554 --> 00:32:10,394
Speaker 5: and I kept trying to google, like, wor is happening

698
00:32:10,394 --> 00:32:14,474
Speaker 5: to me emotionally? And I found the most beautiful writing

699
00:32:14,514 --> 00:32:18,154
Speaker 5: from other women that described exactly what's happening to your brain.

700
00:32:18,954 --> 00:32:22,154
Speaker 5: But a new campaign by Peanut, which is an app

701
00:32:22,314 --> 00:32:26,634
Speaker 5: for connecting mums, in collaboration with Tommy Tippy, who make

702
00:32:26,714 --> 00:32:30,994
Speaker 5: products for expressing and feeding, is lobbying for the inclusion

703
00:32:31,074 --> 00:32:34,954
Speaker 5: of matrescence in the dictionary. So the president of Peanut

704
00:32:35,034 --> 00:32:37,954
Speaker 5: is Michelle Battersby, who people might have heard of the

705
00:32:38,394 --> 00:32:39,314
Speaker 5: Friend of the Pog.

706
00:32:39,554 --> 00:32:41,154
Speaker 2: You hosted our first season of Biz.

707
00:32:41,234 --> 00:32:45,194
Speaker 5: She did, and she's an Aussie and lots of business experience,

708
00:32:45,234 --> 00:32:47,234
Speaker 5: and she has two little boys.

709
00:32:47,474 --> 00:32:51,234
Speaker 3: And this is a very good marketinga oh gosh, I'm like,

710
00:32:51,634 --> 00:32:54,954
Speaker 3: this just goes to show that like brain fog in,

711
00:32:55,354 --> 00:32:57,354
Speaker 3: like postpartum is not a thing for all people.

712
00:32:57,394 --> 00:33:00,194
Speaker 4: Also that thirteen year could not own she could never.

713
00:33:00,354 --> 00:33:03,234
Speaker 5: She could never. So they took out a full page

714
00:33:03,274 --> 00:33:06,274
Speaker 5: ad in the New York Times that read, I don't

715
00:33:06,274 --> 00:33:10,714
Speaker 5: give a fuck IDGAF is in the dictionary. Matrescence isn't

716
00:33:10,914 --> 00:33:13,954
Speaker 5: It's time to give a fuck about mothers. Below that

717
00:33:14,114 --> 00:33:16,314
Speaker 5: was a QR code and when you scanned it, it

718
00:33:16,354 --> 00:33:19,914
Speaker 5: took you to a change dot org petition, which currently

719
00:33:19,954 --> 00:33:24,114
Speaker 5: has over seven thousand signatures, and the petition says sixty

720
00:33:24,154 --> 00:33:27,434
Speaker 5: seven percent of mothers have never heard the term attrescence.

721
00:33:27,594 --> 00:33:30,794
Speaker 5: They go through one of the most destabilizing experiences of

722
00:33:30,834 --> 00:33:34,594
Speaker 5: their lives, thinking they're broken, thinking they're alone, thinking there

723
00:33:34,634 --> 00:33:37,434
Speaker 5: is something wrong with them. M had you heard this

724
00:33:37,594 --> 00:33:39,714
Speaker 5: term before you saw this campaign?

725
00:33:40,034 --> 00:33:43,714
Speaker 2: I had not heard this term, which I was surprised

726
00:33:43,714 --> 00:33:45,834
Speaker 2: at because I work among men. I thought I knew

727
00:33:45,834 --> 00:33:53,034
Speaker 2: everything there is to know about being a month the term.

728
00:33:53,274 --> 00:33:57,074
Speaker 2: It's wild to me that it doesn't exist in the dictionary,

729
00:33:57,274 --> 00:34:00,114
Speaker 2: because whenever I talk to my friends who have been

730
00:34:00,154 --> 00:34:04,314
Speaker 2: through pregnancy, who are mothers, that's the first thing they

731
00:34:04,354 --> 00:34:07,114
Speaker 2: tell me is like, how when they have their kids,

732
00:34:07,234 --> 00:34:11,194
Speaker 2: how it felt like everything changed, like mentally, physically, emotionally.

733
00:34:11,514 --> 00:34:14,274
Speaker 2: I wanted to know from the two of you, because

734
00:34:14,274 --> 00:34:16,913
Speaker 2: this isn't in the dictionary, what would be your own

735
00:34:17,074 --> 00:34:18,913
Speaker 2: personal definition.

736
00:34:18,594 --> 00:34:18,994
Speaker 7: That's.

737
00:34:20,674 --> 00:34:21,433
Speaker 2: What would yours say.

738
00:34:21,954 --> 00:34:25,393
Speaker 5: The way I would describe it is, and I do

739
00:34:25,474 --> 00:34:27,873
Speaker 5: think I think mothers go through something unique. I think

740
00:34:27,914 --> 00:34:31,954
Speaker 5: fathers definitely have a version of this because I remember

741
00:34:32,234 --> 00:34:35,913
Speaker 5: Rory and I leaving hospital with Matilda and saying, it's

742
00:34:36,074 --> 00:34:39,433
Speaker 5: like in the Matrix when I always forget which way

743
00:34:39,474 --> 00:34:40,994
Speaker 5: round with the red pill and the blue pill. But

744
00:34:41,034 --> 00:34:45,953
Speaker 5: it's like you're seeing things through totally different eyes. You're

745
00:34:45,994 --> 00:34:49,194
Speaker 5: seeing there's like and it's weird talking about this because

746
00:34:49,234 --> 00:34:54,194
Speaker 5: I also understand that I don't actually think that Matressn's

747
00:34:54,234 --> 00:34:57,074
Speaker 5: or motherhood is the only time where this happens. I

748
00:34:57,114 --> 00:35:00,393
Speaker 5: think grief probably rewires your brain in a really similar way.

749
00:35:01,114 --> 00:35:04,433
Speaker 5: But what it did to me, I felt like I

750
00:35:04,594 --> 00:35:09,393
Speaker 5: unlocked a whole new level of empathy where I would

751
00:35:09,434 --> 00:35:12,074
Speaker 5: look at everyone and think of them as a child,

752
00:35:12,754 --> 00:35:15,554
Speaker 5: and I find it really hard to have. I think

753
00:35:15,594 --> 00:35:19,354
Speaker 5: I had a lot more staunch opinions before I had

754
00:35:19,354 --> 00:35:22,074
Speaker 5: a child, and now I'm like, but that person was

755
00:35:22,154 --> 00:35:24,514
Speaker 5: just once an innocent baby, and it's not their fault,

756
00:35:24,514 --> 00:35:26,794
Speaker 5: and what is any of our fault? Like I have

757
00:35:27,034 --> 00:35:31,354
Speaker 5: a lot more kind of maybe compassion in that way,

758
00:35:31,594 --> 00:35:39,074
Speaker 5: but also I reckon. Neurologically, it streamlines your brain where

759
00:35:39,154 --> 00:35:40,954
Speaker 5: a lot of the things I used to care about

760
00:35:40,994 --> 00:35:44,354
Speaker 5: I just simply don't care about anymore, and I couldn't

761
00:35:44,354 --> 00:35:47,834
Speaker 5: if I tried. And it makes you a better decision

762
00:35:47,834 --> 00:35:51,074
Speaker 5: maker for me, like a lot more efficient. I think

763
00:35:51,074 --> 00:35:53,114
Speaker 5: you see it in the workplace. You can see some,

764
00:35:53,714 --> 00:35:55,954
Speaker 5: but again, I think there are other experiences that do

765
00:35:55,994 --> 00:36:00,114
Speaker 5: a similar rewiring. But sometimes you see a mother who

766
00:36:00,114 --> 00:36:02,634
Speaker 5: works three days a week and you think she's doing

767
00:36:02,674 --> 00:36:06,274
Speaker 5: five days of work because she is so bloody efficient.

768
00:36:06,754 --> 00:36:09,874
Speaker 3: I think it's complicated, right, because how does parenthood change

769
00:36:09,874 --> 00:36:14,874
Speaker 3: you is a big question. What matrescence is. It feels

770
00:36:14,994 --> 00:36:16,594
Speaker 3: like a process, isn't that.

771
00:36:16,514 --> 00:36:18,834
Speaker 4: The idea of it? Like it's a process that happens

772
00:36:18,834 --> 00:36:19,074
Speaker 4: to you.

773
00:36:19,034 --> 00:36:22,433
Speaker 3: That's partly physiological because of the hormones are changing in

774
00:36:22,474 --> 00:36:26,114
Speaker 3: your body, and partly environmental because everything about your life

775
00:36:26,154 --> 00:36:28,274
Speaker 3: has changed, as you just said. And I think one

776
00:36:28,314 --> 00:36:31,914
Speaker 3: of the reasons why I struggle to verbalize it is because,

777
00:36:31,994 --> 00:36:35,873
Speaker 3: just like adolescents or puberty, when you've been through it,

778
00:36:35,874 --> 00:36:38,074
Speaker 3: it's just absorbed into who you are. I mean, when

779
00:36:38,074 --> 00:36:40,473
Speaker 3: was the last time you really considered puberty and who

780
00:36:40,474 --> 00:36:40,834
Speaker 3: you were?

781
00:36:40,874 --> 00:36:43,074
Speaker 4: Before and after, you know what I mean.

782
00:36:43,114 --> 00:36:45,473
Speaker 3: Whereas now I've been a parent for a long time,

783
00:36:45,594 --> 00:36:47,794
Speaker 3: it's just so much a part of who I am

784
00:36:47,874 --> 00:36:50,873
Speaker 3: that it's very hard to unpick what was that and

785
00:36:50,914 --> 00:36:54,393
Speaker 3: what wasn't. I think this campaign's really interesting because I

786
00:36:54,434 --> 00:36:57,634
Speaker 3: think that obviously it's a marketingployee for brands, which is,

787
00:36:57,914 --> 00:37:00,034
Speaker 3: you know, so's lots of great content these days and

788
00:37:00,074 --> 00:37:02,913
Speaker 3: lots of great ideas, but it is crazy that it

789
00:37:02,954 --> 00:37:06,274
Speaker 3: isn't recognized and at the moment we sort of feel

790
00:37:06,274 --> 00:37:07,913
Speaker 3: like we've been living through a moment where no one

791
00:37:07,954 --> 00:37:11,154
Speaker 3: will shut up about menopause and perimenopause, for example, and

792
00:37:11,234 --> 00:37:12,954
Speaker 3: that we're all getting a little bit tired of that

793
00:37:13,034 --> 00:37:15,994
Speaker 3: in a way. But that's because for so long it

794
00:37:16,034 --> 00:37:18,834
Speaker 3: wasn't recognized at all as also being something very similar

795
00:37:18,834 --> 00:37:21,834
Speaker 3: to adolescence and puberty, which is this whole period where

796
00:37:21,874 --> 00:37:26,274
Speaker 3: everything shifts for you again physiologically, environmentally, and of course

797
00:37:26,314 --> 00:37:28,714
Speaker 3: it has an impact on you. But because these are

798
00:37:28,794 --> 00:37:31,474
Speaker 3: experiences that affect women, I totally take your point clear that,

799
00:37:31,514 --> 00:37:34,514
Speaker 3: of course becoming a parent affects men, but matressence in

800
00:37:34,554 --> 00:37:38,514
Speaker 3: itself is a female experience that it's not important or

801
00:37:38,514 --> 00:37:40,554
Speaker 3: interesting or why would you document it? Oh it's a

802
00:37:40,554 --> 00:37:42,234
Speaker 3: little bit made up, you know. So I think it's

803
00:37:42,274 --> 00:37:44,554
Speaker 3: really interesting to try and get it put in the

804
00:37:44,594 --> 00:37:49,874
Speaker 3: dictionary because culturally we're not desperately interested in the experiences

805
00:37:50,114 --> 00:37:50,714
Speaker 3: of mothers.

806
00:37:51,354 --> 00:37:52,754
Speaker 4: I mean, other mothers are.

807
00:37:52,874 --> 00:37:53,714
Speaker 2: That's a whole world.

808
00:37:53,794 --> 00:37:56,594
Speaker 3: But as if you think about, say the dialogue around

809
00:37:57,194 --> 00:37:59,194
Speaker 3: or what would Taylor Swift write songs about now that

810
00:37:59,234 --> 00:38:02,274
Speaker 3: she's settling down, it's like, oh my god, I don't know,

811
00:38:02,314 --> 00:38:04,674
Speaker 3: maybe one of the most profound shifts you could ever

812
00:38:04,714 --> 00:38:06,034
Speaker 3: go through as a human being.

813
00:38:06,074 --> 00:38:06,913
Speaker 4: That sounds like good.

814
00:38:07,754 --> 00:38:10,514
Speaker 3: I know that there's an out louder and a musician

815
00:38:10,554 --> 00:38:13,074
Speaker 3: called Claire Tonti who wrote an album called Matrescence that

816
00:38:13,234 --> 00:38:16,354
Speaker 3: was all about this, and I think it's very much Again,

817
00:38:16,754 --> 00:38:19,194
Speaker 3: people can get a bit eyerolly about it because they're like, oh,

818
00:38:19,314 --> 00:38:22,274
Speaker 3: mum's banging on about mum stuff. But it's like a

819
00:38:22,354 --> 00:38:26,994
Speaker 3: really profound shift, and the profundity of it is is

820
00:38:27,034 --> 00:38:29,034
Speaker 3: difficult to look back on when you're where I am,

821
00:38:29,074 --> 00:38:31,393
Speaker 3: because you're like, but that's just who I've become, you

822
00:38:31,474 --> 00:38:31,993
Speaker 3: know what I mean.

823
00:38:32,114 --> 00:38:34,873
Speaker 5: I think that term and I think putting it in

824
00:38:34,914 --> 00:38:38,834
Speaker 5: the dictionary, recognizing it more would mean, And I know

825
00:38:38,954 --> 00:38:41,274
Speaker 5: that for me it allowed me to give myself a

826
00:38:41,274 --> 00:38:45,033
Speaker 5: bit more grace about having changed and a bit more

827
00:38:45,074 --> 00:38:49,474
Speaker 5: grace about like when you think about adolescence, you weirdly

828
00:38:49,514 --> 00:38:53,994
Speaker 5: don't come out of adolescence thinking, oh, it was so

829
00:38:54,154 --> 00:38:56,274
Speaker 5: good to not have my period.

830
00:38:56,514 --> 00:38:58,554
Speaker 3: And also to be honest, But apart from the very

831
00:38:58,594 --> 00:39:01,953
Speaker 3: clear Marcus like periods, the years and years that you're

832
00:39:01,994 --> 00:39:04,514
Speaker 3: going through those shifts, you don't recognize that all of

833
00:39:04,514 --> 00:39:06,674
Speaker 3: your moods and you're not all of your moods, but

834
00:39:06,714 --> 00:39:09,954
Speaker 3: many of your moods, opinions, environmental factors are to do

835
00:39:10,074 --> 00:39:10,354
Speaker 3: with that.

836
00:39:10,394 --> 00:39:10,994
Speaker 2: You're just in it.

837
00:39:10,994 --> 00:39:13,393
Speaker 5: It's just your water, exactly. And so that's why I

838
00:39:13,434 --> 00:39:17,114
Speaker 5: always find it fascinating the question when people ask should

839
00:39:17,114 --> 00:39:20,154
Speaker 5: I have children? Is it better or worse? You hear

840
00:39:20,194 --> 00:39:24,194
Speaker 5: people have conversations about regretting becoming and I'm like, it's

841
00:39:24,314 --> 00:39:26,873
Speaker 5: just such a transformational experience that I don't think you

842
00:39:26,954 --> 00:39:30,754
Speaker 5: can ever answer that. And for me, it's been this

843
00:39:30,834 --> 00:39:34,154
Speaker 5: thing where I think you can have an experience that's really,

844
00:39:35,154 --> 00:39:37,953
Speaker 5: really hard, and I genuinely do not believe I'd been

845
00:39:37,994 --> 00:39:41,714
Speaker 5: through any adversity before I gave birth. And had a child,

846
00:39:41,794 --> 00:39:44,513
Speaker 5: not that it's like birth with an adversity, but raising

847
00:39:44,554 --> 00:39:46,834
Speaker 5: a child and sleep deprivation and not knowing what you're

848
00:39:46,874 --> 00:39:49,714
Speaker 5: doing and learning how to breastfeed, and fear and all

849
00:39:49,754 --> 00:39:51,754
Speaker 5: of that, being more vulnerable than you've ever felt in

850
00:39:51,754 --> 00:39:55,913
Speaker 5: your whole life. That adversity, I think it brings like

851
00:39:56,034 --> 00:40:00,274
Speaker 5: a depth and a connection, like a connection to your

852
00:40:00,314 --> 00:40:03,274
Speaker 5: mother and a connection to other women who have been

853
00:40:03,314 --> 00:40:08,074
Speaker 5: through it. That is really quite found. You can go

854
00:40:08,114 --> 00:40:11,513
Speaker 5: through something really hard and there's value in it. You're

855
00:40:11,514 --> 00:40:14,433
Speaker 5: not wishing you didn't go through it. It's strange. I

856
00:40:14,434 --> 00:40:18,074
Speaker 5: think the comparison to adolescence is actually quite helpful.

857
00:40:19,194 --> 00:40:22,154
Speaker 2: After the break, we have two podcasts you need to

858
00:40:22,154 --> 00:40:25,874
Speaker 2: listen to and one book that I cannot stop thinking about.

859
00:40:30,794 --> 00:40:35,714
Speaker 2: Vibes ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun. This is my

860
00:40:35,794 --> 00:40:39,674
Speaker 2: best recommendation. It is Friday, and we want to help

861
00:40:39,754 --> 00:40:42,594
Speaker 2: set up your weekend with our very best recommendation.

862
00:40:42,914 --> 00:40:46,234
Speaker 5: I'm going to go first. So my recommendation is a

863
00:40:46,274 --> 00:40:51,834
Speaker 5: podcast called Hometown Boys, and it's by ABC's Background Briefing,

864
00:40:51,874 --> 00:40:56,154
Speaker 5: so it's in the background briefing feed. So my interest

865
00:40:56,194 --> 00:40:59,794
Speaker 5: in this started because I read an incredible digital storytelling

866
00:40:59,834 --> 00:41:03,714
Speaker 5: piece on ABC called The Town That Turned its Back

867
00:41:03,834 --> 00:41:07,154
Speaker 5: on a rape Victim, and I was just hooked on

868
00:41:07,234 --> 00:41:10,314
Speaker 5: every word. And it was about a young woman named Elise.

869
00:41:10,554 --> 00:41:13,474
Speaker 5: They've changed her name for privacy, but she was twenty.

870
00:41:13,954 --> 00:41:16,913
Speaker 5: She grew up in this town called Balmoral, which is

871
00:41:16,914 --> 00:41:19,754
Speaker 5: in Country Victoria, and then she went to UNI, came

872
00:41:19,794 --> 00:41:22,993
Speaker 5: back for twenty first and at this twenty first she's

873
00:41:23,634 --> 00:41:26,154
Speaker 5: it's just all people she's grown up with, went to

874
00:41:26,154 --> 00:41:28,674
Speaker 5: school with. All the families are so in mesh because

875
00:41:28,674 --> 00:41:33,434
Speaker 5: it's a small town. She ends up in a caravan

876
00:41:33,754 --> 00:41:36,754
Speaker 5: with two young men that she had been to school with,

877
00:41:36,994 --> 00:41:40,073
Speaker 5: knew them very well, and she was raped by both

878
00:41:40,074 --> 00:41:42,393
Speaker 5: of them. And I can say raped because they were

879
00:41:42,434 --> 00:41:47,274
Speaker 5: found guilty in a court of law twice. And the

880
00:41:47,394 --> 00:41:52,234
Speaker 5: story is all about how when she pursues legal action,

881
00:41:52,914 --> 00:41:56,114
Speaker 5: the town turns against her and her family because these

882
00:41:56,154 --> 00:41:59,314
Speaker 5: young men are footy stars and they are beloved in

883
00:41:59,354 --> 00:42:02,874
Speaker 5: the community. So I didn't realize until the out Louders

884
00:42:03,354 --> 00:42:06,234
Speaker 5: put it in that this is also a six part

885
00:42:06,354 --> 00:42:09,074
Speaker 5: investigative podcast, and I was sort of like, I read

886
00:42:09,074 --> 00:42:13,274
Speaker 5: the article, like should I listen? And within five minutes

887
00:42:13,314 --> 00:42:16,314
Speaker 5: you realize that there is so much more depth to this.

888
00:42:16,994 --> 00:42:20,674
Speaker 5: Two reporters named Charlotte King and Andy Burns go to

889
00:42:20,754 --> 00:42:23,314
Speaker 5: balmorl and speak to so many of the people involved.

890
00:42:23,994 --> 00:42:27,514
Speaker 5: They read out court transcripts. There is so much more

891
00:42:27,594 --> 00:42:29,913
Speaker 5: nuance to the story that can even be conveyed in

892
00:42:30,074 --> 00:42:35,434
Speaker 5: the long form article. But what I just cannot stop

893
00:42:35,474 --> 00:42:40,754
Speaker 5: thinking about is the fact that it really gets to

894
00:42:40,794 --> 00:42:43,314
Speaker 5: the crux of cases like these and how we struggle

895
00:42:43,794 --> 00:42:48,194
Speaker 5: to believe these kinds of allegations no matter the evidence.

896
00:42:48,314 --> 00:42:50,034
Speaker 5: Like you can have all the evidence, you can have

897
00:42:50,114 --> 00:42:52,794
Speaker 5: people found guilty, and we know how hard that is

898
00:42:53,194 --> 00:42:55,873
Speaker 5: when it comes to sexual assault cases. You can have

899
00:42:55,914 --> 00:43:01,033
Speaker 5: people found guilty twice and still people point the finger

900
00:43:01,074 --> 00:43:04,194
Speaker 5: at the woman and you find yourself this is so horrible.

901
00:43:04,194 --> 00:43:08,114
Speaker 5: But you find yourself thinking, and I think it is

902
00:43:08,194 --> 00:43:11,154
Speaker 5: human nature. You hear these stories and you think was

903
00:43:11,154 --> 00:43:13,114
Speaker 5: she telling the truth? And then you think, why on

904
00:43:13,194 --> 00:43:18,794
Speaker 5: earth is my default to question the woman? And it

905
00:43:19,034 --> 00:43:24,473
Speaker 5: also made me question the narrative that always gets brought

906
00:43:24,554 --> 00:43:27,554
Speaker 5: up in these cases, which is she was embarrassed, she

907
00:43:27,674 --> 00:43:31,074
Speaker 5: regretted it, so she called Rayah. And you think, putting

908
00:43:31,114 --> 00:43:35,714
Speaker 5: yourself in those shoes, if I had sex with somebody

909
00:43:35,834 --> 00:43:38,873
Speaker 5: and I've regretted it and I felt embarrassed. Yeah, I

910
00:43:38,914 --> 00:43:41,794
Speaker 5: wouldn't stand in court twice and free.

911
00:43:41,754 --> 00:43:45,274
Speaker 4: Tell through the hostile law environment to go through this,

912
00:43:45,354 --> 00:43:45,714
Speaker 4: I mean.

913
00:43:46,234 --> 00:43:48,634
Speaker 5: In front of your family and your friends and everyone

914
00:43:49,114 --> 00:43:51,873
Speaker 5: you've ever known, and said, he put his finger here,

915
00:43:51,914 --> 00:43:53,473
Speaker 5: and then he did this, and then he did this.

916
00:43:53,554 --> 00:43:56,953
Speaker 5: It just makes no sense. But it's just such an

917
00:43:56,994 --> 00:44:02,274
Speaker 5: interesting story about footy culture, about small towns, about what

918
00:44:02,354 --> 00:44:06,234
Speaker 5: happens in mesh community when somebody is accused of for crime.

919
00:44:06,674 --> 00:44:07,474
Speaker 5: Cannot commended.

920
00:44:07,714 --> 00:44:08,754
Speaker 4: It sounds amazing.

921
00:44:09,074 --> 00:44:12,754
Speaker 3: Hol, I've got a podcast series to recommend, Claire. You

922
00:44:12,794 --> 00:44:14,714
Speaker 3: recommended a podcast series the other week, and it made

923
00:44:14,754 --> 00:44:17,634
Speaker 3: me remember how much I missed them, actually, those kind

924
00:44:17,674 --> 00:44:20,914
Speaker 3: of episodic shows. But I've just listened to one that

925
00:44:20,954 --> 00:44:23,634
Speaker 3: I'm recommending because it's so interesting. But I also need

926
00:44:23,634 --> 00:44:25,194
Speaker 3: people to listen to it so we can discuss it

927
00:44:25,474 --> 00:44:27,794
Speaker 3: because I'm conflicted about it.

928
00:44:27,914 --> 00:44:28,074
Speaker 5: Right.

929
00:44:28,554 --> 00:44:29,754
Speaker 2: Do you remember last year?

930
00:44:29,794 --> 00:44:31,873
Speaker 3: Was it last year when the big stink about the

931
00:44:31,914 --> 00:44:32,873
Speaker 3: Saltpath blew up?

932
00:44:33,154 --> 00:44:33,393
Speaker 5: Yes?

933
00:44:33,594 --> 00:44:35,354
Speaker 2: I know exactly what we're going to recommend them. Yeah,

934
00:44:35,354 --> 00:44:35,794
Speaker 2: here for it.

935
00:44:36,354 --> 00:44:38,794
Speaker 3: So the Saltpath is this book that I recommended on

936
00:44:38,794 --> 00:44:40,834
Speaker 3: the show once written by a woman called Raina Winn.

937
00:44:40,874 --> 00:44:44,234
Speaker 3: I stand by the fact it is a brilliant, beautiful book. Anyway,

938
00:44:44,634 --> 00:44:48,194
Speaker 3: last year a British broadsheet called The Observer newspaper did

939
00:44:48,194 --> 00:44:51,074
Speaker 3: this big investigative piece that have been ages in the making.

940
00:44:51,114 --> 00:44:53,954
Speaker 3: Rather this incredible investigative reporter that basically said that a

941
00:44:53,994 --> 00:44:56,473
Speaker 3: lot of claims in that book weren't true. And now

942
00:44:56,514 --> 00:45:00,033
Speaker 3: the same reporter, who is called Chloe had jim Asa,

943
00:45:00,794 --> 00:45:03,634
Speaker 3: has made a podcast about it, a seven part podcast

944
00:45:03,714 --> 00:45:06,594
Speaker 3: about it. Now she is the narrative editor and at

945
00:45:06,594 --> 00:45:09,954
Speaker 3: the Obbos, which is a very well respected newspaper in Britain,

946
00:45:09,954 --> 00:45:12,594
Speaker 3: and she's also one loads of awards for investigative journalism,

947
00:45:12,634 --> 00:45:15,873
Speaker 3: so she's got the chops right. And basically after that

948
00:45:15,954 --> 00:45:18,554
Speaker 3: she published that written piece about how the Salt Path

949
00:45:18,674 --> 00:45:21,754
Speaker 3: was nonsense, all these people came out of the woodwork

950
00:45:21,794 --> 00:45:24,114
Speaker 3: and said, I know them, I'll tell you more stories.

951
00:45:24,194 --> 00:45:27,034
Speaker 3: Dead family members came out and said, oh, let me

952
00:45:27,074 --> 00:45:28,834
Speaker 3: tell you about that time that she did this, and

953
00:45:28,914 --> 00:45:32,354
Speaker 3: blah blah. And that's what's turned into this podcast that's

954
00:45:32,394 --> 00:45:34,674
Speaker 3: called The Walkers. It's a very clever name because the

955
00:45:34,834 --> 00:45:36,834
Speaker 3: Walkers is their real name that she's not really called

956
00:45:36,874 --> 00:45:37,674
Speaker 3: Rayna Winn, she's.

957
00:45:37,514 --> 00:45:40,354
Speaker 4: Called Sally Walker. But they also walked, and they also walked,

958
00:45:40,794 --> 00:45:43,154
Speaker 4: so it's a very clever name. So it's called The Walkers.

959
00:45:43,554 --> 00:45:47,234
Speaker 3: It's by Tortoise Media, and it is seven parts of

960
00:45:47,314 --> 00:45:49,714
Speaker 3: kind of on picking Salt Path. And I'm recommending it

961
00:45:49,714 --> 00:45:51,834
Speaker 3: because it's great and interesting, particularly if you've read the book.

962
00:45:51,914 --> 00:45:54,954
Speaker 3: But the other thing about it that's really interesting that

963
00:45:54,994 --> 00:45:57,274
Speaker 3: I need to talk about is like some of the

964
00:45:57,314 --> 00:46:03,274
Speaker 3: things that Hadjimathau uncovers and debunks are really important, big things, right,

965
00:46:03,474 --> 00:46:06,634
Speaker 3: Like there's these big questions about whether or not Sally's husband, Tim,

966
00:46:06,674 --> 00:46:10,314
Speaker 3: who's called in the book, really has this terrible degenerative,

967
00:46:10,434 --> 00:46:13,594
Speaker 3: incurable disease. That is a big part in that that's

968
00:46:13,634 --> 00:46:18,154
Speaker 3: an unanswered question. Certainly she and he deny that that's

969
00:46:18,234 --> 00:46:22,354
Speaker 3: nonsense and say that's deeply offensive. And also the fact

970
00:46:22,434 --> 00:46:25,674
Speaker 3: that there are allegations that she also denies that she

971
00:46:25,834 --> 00:46:28,314
Speaker 3: stole money from lots of different family members, which is

972
00:46:28,514 --> 00:46:31,393
Speaker 3: it's fascinating personality study. But then a lot of the

973
00:46:31,474 --> 00:46:34,194
Speaker 3: other things in here are really petty. They're like that

974
00:46:34,274 --> 00:46:37,514
Speaker 3: cafe they went to on page six isn't really called that,

975
00:46:37,714 --> 00:46:40,354
Speaker 3: they don't serve. Pannini's the guy who's a boss isn't there.

976
00:46:40,354 --> 00:46:43,114
Speaker 3: But and I think maybe because I'm a writer, that

977
00:46:43,194 --> 00:46:44,594
Speaker 3: kind of stuff really irritates me.

978
00:46:44,634 --> 00:46:45,513
Speaker 4: I'm like, why are you?

979
00:46:45,674 --> 00:46:49,194
Speaker 3: Like she's kind of obviously consolidated many cafes that she

980
00:46:49,274 --> 00:46:51,154
Speaker 3: went to on that walk to tell you this story,

981
00:46:51,194 --> 00:46:52,993
Speaker 3: and like, who gives a shit? And it's like, maybe

982
00:46:53,034 --> 00:46:55,274
Speaker 3: it was March. She said it was May, she said

983
00:46:55,274 --> 00:46:57,314
Speaker 3: it was raining, they said it was blah. Like some

984
00:46:57,354 --> 00:47:01,514
Speaker 3: of them are really petty. But it's also a fascinating

985
00:47:02,394 --> 00:47:05,794
Speaker 3: uncovering of how much people hate being misrepresented in other

986
00:47:05,834 --> 00:47:09,114
Speaker 3: people's stories, because there are also in Rainer's book, in

987
00:47:09,194 --> 00:47:13,194
Speaker 3: Sally Walker's book, to disguise family members and real people,

988
00:47:13,234 --> 00:47:15,754
Speaker 3: she's given them pseudonyms and said, so there's a cousin

989
00:47:15,754 --> 00:47:18,194
Speaker 3: who in the book is a friend called Vicki or whatever,

990
00:47:18,714 --> 00:47:21,393
Speaker 3: and the real Vicky who's the cousin, hates the way

991
00:47:21,434 --> 00:47:24,194
Speaker 3: she protect like, she made me sound rude, she made

992
00:47:24,234 --> 00:47:26,434
Speaker 3: me sound this, She said this about me that isn't true,

993
00:47:26,474 --> 00:47:30,754
Speaker 3: And it's like it's really fascinating because the ethics of

994
00:47:30,794 --> 00:47:33,354
Speaker 3: it are dubious, but also there are bits of it,

995
00:47:33,394 --> 00:47:35,194
Speaker 3: and I'm like, let the woman write a book, you

996
00:47:35,234 --> 00:47:38,714
Speaker 3: know what I mean, Like, it's really so anyway, I'm obsessed.

997
00:47:39,114 --> 00:47:40,314
Speaker 4: I've listened to the whole thing.

998
00:47:40,874 --> 00:47:43,114
Speaker 3: I need people who are particularly people who care about

999
00:47:43,114 --> 00:47:44,474
Speaker 3: the Salt Bath to listen to it too, so that

1000
00:47:44,514 --> 00:47:47,634
Speaker 3: we can discuss the petty versus serious nature of this.

1001
00:47:47,794 --> 00:47:50,034
Speaker 4: It's called The Walkers and you'll find it wherever you

1002
00:47:50,074 --> 00:47:50,994
Speaker 4: find your podcast.

1003
00:47:51,154 --> 00:47:52,754
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, I need to listen to that.

1004
00:47:52,794 --> 00:47:56,433
Speaker 2: So excited. I've done a lot of reading watching when

1005
00:47:56,434 --> 00:47:58,834
Speaker 2: I was on holiday. I was also on holiday, in

1006
00:47:58,874 --> 00:48:03,474
Speaker 2: case you missed it, I read a book by Jeanette McCurdy.

1007
00:48:03,834 --> 00:48:05,794
Speaker 4: She wrote I'm glad my mom died.

1008
00:48:05,634 --> 00:48:08,314
Speaker 2: Yes, which I think is getting made for the screen now.

1009
00:48:09,354 --> 00:48:12,514
Speaker 2: She's been a child actor. She was famously in I Carlie.

1010
00:48:12,594 --> 00:48:15,314
Speaker 2: A lot of people know her. She wrote her first novel.

1011
00:48:15,714 --> 00:48:18,594
Speaker 2: It's called Half His Age, and it's about a teenage

1012
00:48:18,594 --> 00:48:21,873
Speaker 2: girl named Waldo, which I didn't know was a real name.

1013
00:48:22,154 --> 00:48:23,794
Speaker 4: Yeah maybe it isn't.

1014
00:48:23,954 --> 00:48:26,634
Speaker 5: It sounds like a dog, Yeah, yeah, Waldo.

1015
00:48:26,794 --> 00:48:30,033
Speaker 2: She's seventeen and she has a huge crush on her

1016
00:48:30,234 --> 00:48:34,434
Speaker 2: teacher named mister Corgy, and it goes into these extremely

1017
00:48:34,474 --> 00:48:38,393
Speaker 2: problematic age gap relationships and the relationship between the two

1018
00:48:38,474 --> 00:48:40,794
Speaker 2: of them. But it's one of those like I feel

1019
00:48:40,794 --> 00:48:44,714
Speaker 2: like we're getting a lot of age gap relationship novels recently,

1020
00:48:44,794 --> 00:48:47,434
Speaker 2: and I love them all. It's one of my favorite tropes. Weirdly,

1021
00:48:48,314 --> 00:48:50,393
Speaker 2: this one just went in a way that I did

1022
00:48:50,434 --> 00:48:55,114
Speaker 2: not expect, and it's so well written. She also I

1023
00:48:55,194 --> 00:48:58,114
Speaker 2: listened to some of it on audiobook and Janette narrates

1024
00:48:58,154 --> 00:49:00,754
Speaker 2: it herself, and I love her voice because she also

1025
00:49:00,794 --> 00:49:03,553
Speaker 2: did I'm Glad my Mom died. And it's so well done.

1026
00:49:03,594 --> 00:49:05,393
Speaker 2: It's such a quick read. I think it's around two

1027
00:49:05,514 --> 00:49:08,114
Speaker 2: hundred pages. I think I went through the whole thing

1028
00:49:08,154 --> 00:49:10,754
Speaker 2: in one day on a plane on a plane ride.

1029
00:49:11,234 --> 00:49:14,034
Speaker 2: It's so juicy. It starts off with Kindlinger's hole you

1030
00:49:14,074 --> 00:49:23,194
Speaker 2: would love that. I like, I was, please, I need

1031
00:49:23,234 --> 00:49:24,074
Speaker 2: to correct the record.

1032
00:49:24,194 --> 00:49:25,954
Speaker 5: We'll never let you live It in as.

1033
00:49:25,834 --> 00:49:33,794
Speaker 3: A scene in my about coloring my coworkers, never let

1034
00:49:33,834 --> 00:49:35,754
Speaker 3: me forget. These are the things no one tells you

1035
00:49:35,794 --> 00:49:39,634
Speaker 3: about being an authort it and then I was just

1036
00:49:39,714 --> 00:49:42,434
Speaker 3: about to say then when you were like it starts,

1037
00:49:42,434 --> 00:49:42,994
Speaker 3: I was about.

1038
00:49:42,834 --> 00:49:44,714
Speaker 2: Saying I love a journey opening and then I was.

1039
00:49:44,634 --> 00:49:50,954
Speaker 5: Like, that's why I will never write a sex scene,

1040
00:49:51,314 --> 00:49:54,834
Speaker 5: because my family would never let me live it down,

1041
00:49:55,074 --> 00:49:56,354
Speaker 5: and neither would my friends.

1042
00:49:56,434 --> 00:49:59,114
Speaker 2: Continue out, there's a lot and a lot of sex

1043
00:49:59,274 --> 00:50:02,433
Speaker 2: in this. But what's also she does really well, and

1044
00:50:02,474 --> 00:50:05,594
Speaker 2: I wonder if this is from her personal experience, was

1045
00:50:06,114 --> 00:50:09,794
Speaker 2: the mother daughter dynamic. She writes that really well, her

1046
00:50:09,914 --> 00:50:13,794
Speaker 2: mum is a sex addict, and you see the interactions

1047
00:50:13,834 --> 00:50:16,274
Speaker 2: between the older character and the mum, and it's done

1048
00:50:16,314 --> 00:50:19,274
Speaker 2: so well. And I also remember in her memoir she

1049
00:50:19,354 --> 00:50:21,913
Speaker 2: also had was in an age gap relationship, and I

1050
00:50:21,914 --> 00:50:25,514
Speaker 2: think she brings a lot of experience to the story,

1051
00:50:25,554 --> 00:50:27,634
Speaker 2: which if you've read her memo you'll be able to see.

1052
00:50:27,954 --> 00:50:30,634
Speaker 2: But her writing is so beautiful, and I always feel

1053
00:50:30,634 --> 00:50:33,274
Speaker 2: a bit weird reading like celebrity fiction because I'm like,

1054
00:50:33,314 --> 00:50:35,473
Speaker 2: how good can you be? And this is really good.

1055
00:50:35,514 --> 00:50:36,434
Speaker 2: I really like it's.

1056
00:50:36,314 --> 00:50:39,314
Speaker 3: Smart of her because that's such a conversation in the

1057
00:50:39,434 --> 00:50:42,754
Speaker 3: zeitgeist at the moment with the Epstein Files, which obviously

1058
00:50:43,314 --> 00:50:46,794
Speaker 3: deals with horrific allegations of Peter philia, but there's also

1059
00:50:47,474 --> 00:50:49,913
Speaker 3: a lot of conversation going on about, well, what about

1060
00:50:49,914 --> 00:50:52,234
Speaker 3: the girls who are over eighteen? And there's a lot

1061
00:50:52,274 --> 00:50:55,794
Speaker 3: of defenders and naysayers who are like, he just likes

1062
00:50:55,794 --> 00:50:57,754
Speaker 3: them young, and who cares that all the guys were

1063
00:50:57,754 --> 00:51:00,194
Speaker 3: sixty and they were all eighteen, Like you know what

1064
00:51:00,274 --> 00:51:03,953
Speaker 3: I mean? Like that cultural conversation about what's okay what's

1065
00:51:03,994 --> 00:51:06,073
Speaker 3: not okay is like very in the air.

1066
00:51:06,394 --> 00:51:08,513
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, you got the biggest egg from

1067
00:51:08,514 --> 00:51:09,034
Speaker 2: this teacher.

1068
00:51:09,194 --> 00:51:12,834
Speaker 5: Oh but it's so good. That is literally next on

1069
00:51:12,874 --> 00:51:15,474
Speaker 5: my list. I have a spreadsheet where I cook books

1070
00:51:15,474 --> 00:51:17,993
Speaker 5: that I want to read, have to keep track.

1071
00:51:18,314 --> 00:51:20,954
Speaker 3: That is all we have time for today. Out louders,

1072
00:51:21,074 --> 00:51:23,314
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for being with us all week.

1073
00:51:23,434 --> 00:51:25,994
Speaker 3: Thank you Klaus Stephens, who is the new Jesse Stevens,

1074
00:51:26,154 --> 00:51:30,354
Speaker 3: thank you. And to my wonderful m who's back from

1075
00:51:30,394 --> 00:51:31,114
Speaker 3: her holiday.

1076
00:51:31,354 --> 00:51:34,074
Speaker 4: Not that you're mine, but you know who.

1077
00:51:34,114 --> 00:51:35,834
Speaker 3: Would like to thank our incredible team.

1078
00:51:35,874 --> 00:51:39,154
Speaker 5: Oh can I because I haven't done it? Yes, thanks

1079
00:51:39,194 --> 00:51:44,034
Speaker 5: to our group executive producer Ruth Devine, executive producer Sasha Tannic,

1080
00:51:44,394 --> 00:51:48,194
Speaker 5: our senior audio producer is Leah Porge's, our video producer

1081
00:51:48,354 --> 00:51:52,873
Speaker 5: is Josh Green, and our junior content producer is Tessa Kodovich.

1082
00:51:53,234 --> 00:52:02,674
Speaker 2: Bye bye, Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the

1083
00:52:02,754 --> 00:52:04,834
Speaker 2: land on which we have recorded this podcast.