1 00:00:10,614 --> 00:00:15,294 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges 2 00:00:15,334 --> 00:00:18,094 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:18,214 --> 00:00:18,894 Speaker 1: is recorded on. 4 00:00:21,974 --> 00:00:22,094 Speaker 2: Hi. 5 00:00:22,294 --> 00:00:25,414 Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's daily news podcast, 6 00:00:25,494 --> 00:00:29,934 Speaker 1: The Quickie. On Saturday, four Israeli hostages were freed from 7 00:00:30,054 --> 00:00:34,894 Speaker 1: inside Gaza in an operation involving Israeli Elite Special Forces soldiers. 8 00:00:35,494 --> 00:00:38,094 Speaker 1: While the families of those hostages are relieved to have 9 00:00:38,214 --> 00:00:40,694 Speaker 1: their loved ones home again, the lives lost in this 10 00:00:40,854 --> 00:00:45,334 Speaker 1: mission again shows the price innocent Palestinian civilians will continue 11 00:00:45,494 --> 00:00:48,414 Speaker 1: to pay in this war. Before we try to understand 12 00:00:48,414 --> 00:00:51,414 Speaker 1: the intricacies of hostage rescue in this conflict. Here's the 13 00:00:51,494 --> 00:00:55,214 Speaker 1: latest from The Quickie newsroom Thursday, June thirteenth. Experts are 14 00:00:55,254 --> 00:00:58,214 Speaker 1: warning that deep fake apps with the ability to impose 15 00:00:58,254 --> 00:01:01,294 Speaker 1: the heads of women onto naked bodies are being pushed 16 00:01:01,334 --> 00:01:04,734 Speaker 1: to kids and adults via social media with more advanced 17 00:01:04,774 --> 00:01:09,174 Speaker 1: software on the horizon. Monash University Associate professor Asher Flynn, 18 00:01:09,214 --> 00:01:13,574 Speaker 1: whose specializes in tech facilitated violence, says the companies hosting 19 00:01:13,654 --> 00:01:16,934 Speaker 1: these apps in their online stores should be held responsible. 20 00:01:17,294 --> 00:01:20,374 Speaker 1: With more instances like the arrest of a Melbourne schoolboy 21 00:01:20,494 --> 00:01:24,214 Speaker 1: this week for creating naked pictures of fifty female students 22 00:01:24,254 --> 00:01:27,814 Speaker 1: at Bacchus Marsh Grammar using pictures from their social media accounts. 23 00:01:27,974 --> 00:01:31,734 Speaker 1: Expected laws cracking down on the sharing of sexually explicit 24 00:01:31,894 --> 00:01:35,934 Speaker 1: AI generated images and deep fakes without consent were recently 25 00:01:36,014 --> 00:01:39,774 Speaker 1: introduced to Parliament, but the technology is moving faster than 26 00:01:39,814 --> 00:01:43,654 Speaker 1: our laws are, with experts saying it's becoming even more accessible. 27 00:01:44,374 --> 00:01:47,374 Speaker 1: Chris Dawson, who was found guilty of murdering his wife 28 00:01:47,454 --> 00:01:50,134 Speaker 1: Lynette more than forty years ago, will today find out 29 00:01:50,254 --> 00:01:53,574 Speaker 1: if his conviction will be overturned. A panel of judges 30 00:01:53,614 --> 00:01:56,174 Speaker 1: in the New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal will 31 00:01:56,254 --> 00:01:59,974 Speaker 1: deliver their ruling today after Dawson's lawyers argued that the 32 00:02:00,014 --> 00:02:04,454 Speaker 1: guilty verdict handed down in August twenty twenty two was unreasonable. 33 00:02:04,734 --> 00:02:07,534 Speaker 1: Dawson was found guilty of killing Lynette in nineteen eighty 34 00:02:07,574 --> 00:02:10,134 Speaker 1: two and disposing of her bodies so that he could 35 00:02:10,174 --> 00:02:12,894 Speaker 1: pursue a relationship with a teenage girl who was a 36 00:02:12,934 --> 00:02:16,054 Speaker 1: student at the school where he was teaching. Dawson's lawyers 37 00:02:16,094 --> 00:02:19,334 Speaker 1: claimed there isn't enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that 38 00:02:19,454 --> 00:02:22,374 Speaker 1: he killed Lynette and there's still a possibility she left 39 00:02:22,414 --> 00:02:24,454 Speaker 1: to start a new life in the aftermath of her 40 00:02:24,534 --> 00:02:28,654 Speaker 1: husband's infidelity, saying the judge had wrongfully used Dawson's lies 41 00:02:28,694 --> 00:02:31,454 Speaker 1: about receiving a phone call from Lynette telling him she 42 00:02:31,574 --> 00:02:35,254 Speaker 1: wanted time away to think, as demonstrating consciousness of guilt. 43 00:02:36,254 --> 00:02:39,694 Speaker 1: A senior Hamas official has denied they've put forward new 44 00:02:39,774 --> 00:02:43,094 Speaker 1: ideas for a US backed proposal for a Gaza ceasefire, 45 00:02:43,454 --> 00:02:46,934 Speaker 1: after US Secretary of State Anthony Blinkn suggested they'd made 46 00:02:47,014 --> 00:02:50,974 Speaker 1: numerous changes. The official said Blincn was part of the problem, 47 00:02:51,094 --> 00:02:53,774 Speaker 1: not the solution in the now eight month war in Gaza. 48 00:02:54,134 --> 00:02:57,454 Speaker 1: Blincoln suggesting Hamas had asked for many changes to the agreement, 49 00:02:57,854 --> 00:03:02,174 Speaker 1: some unworkable, but that mediators remained determined to close the gaps. 50 00:03:02,454 --> 00:03:05,214 Speaker 1: The Hammas officials saying they affirmed their commitment to what 51 00:03:05,414 --> 00:03:08,134 Speaker 1: was presented on May five to the mediators and there 52 00:03:08,214 --> 00:03:10,894 Speaker 1: was no talk about any news who ideas or proposals. 53 00:03:11,174 --> 00:03:15,134 Speaker 1: Harmas claims that Israel is the one rejecting proposals, accusing 54 00:03:15,174 --> 00:03:18,014 Speaker 1: the US administration of going along with its close ally 55 00:03:18,414 --> 00:03:21,254 Speaker 1: to evade any commitment to a blueprint for a permanent 56 00:03:21,334 --> 00:03:25,654 Speaker 1: ceasefire in Gaza. Actor Kevin Spacey has broken down in 57 00:03:25,774 --> 00:03:29,614 Speaker 1: tears on Piers Morgan's TV show Uncensored, claiming he's been 58 00:03:29,694 --> 00:03:32,934 Speaker 1: sent a message of support from the King. Spacey was 59 00:03:33,054 --> 00:03:35,694 Speaker 1: cleared of sexually assaulting four young men in a London 60 00:03:35,814 --> 00:03:38,734 Speaker 1: court last year, but he's still facing a civil trial 61 00:03:38,814 --> 00:03:41,774 Speaker 1: in the UK next year after another man came forward 62 00:03:41,854 --> 00:03:45,334 Speaker 1: with sexual assault allegations. While the actor has continued to 63 00:03:45,414 --> 00:03:48,894 Speaker 1: deny all the accusations leveled against him, he was dropped 64 00:03:48,934 --> 00:03:51,654 Speaker 1: from the TV show House of Cards and edited out 65 00:03:51,694 --> 00:03:54,894 Speaker 1: of a film he was already in. Spacey breaking down 66 00:03:54,934 --> 00:03:57,574 Speaker 1: in tears, telling Morgan that his house in Baltimore's being 67 00:03:57,654 --> 00:04:00,654 Speaker 1: foreclosed on and that he has no money, owing his 68 00:04:00,814 --> 00:04:04,174 Speaker 1: lawyers many millions of dollars. He didn't give any detail 69 00:04:04,214 --> 00:04:07,054 Speaker 1: about what the message was, but Spacey claimed he had 70 00:04:07,094 --> 00:04:09,854 Speaker 1: the support of King Charles, who had a give before 71 00:04:09,894 --> 00:04:14,214 Speaker 1: the allegations of sexual assault emerged, given Spacey and honorary knighthood. 72 00:04:15,054 --> 00:04:16,534 Speaker 1: That's what's happening in the world today. 73 00:04:16,614 --> 00:04:16,854 Speaker 3: Next. 74 00:04:17,094 --> 00:04:20,614 Speaker 1: Four Israeli hostages have been freed, but at what cost 75 00:04:21,014 --> 00:04:23,254 Speaker 1: and what of the more than one hundred people who 76 00:04:23,334 --> 00:04:39,254 Speaker 1: remain hidden behind Gaza's borders. On Saturday, after two hundred 77 00:04:39,294 --> 00:04:43,134 Speaker 1: and forty five days being held hostage inside Gaza, Noah 78 00:04:43,214 --> 00:04:48,134 Speaker 1: Agamani was rescued along with three others. Noah had become 79 00:04:48,214 --> 00:04:50,894 Speaker 1: one of the most recognized faces of the more than 80 00:04:50,934 --> 00:04:54,494 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty people who were taken on October seven, 81 00:04:54,894 --> 00:04:57,974 Speaker 1: most from Kibbutz along the border with Gaza. Noah and 82 00:04:58,134 --> 00:05:01,894 Speaker 1: forty one others from the Nova Music Festival. The twenty 83 00:05:01,934 --> 00:05:04,254 Speaker 1: six year old would become one of the first faces 84 00:05:04,374 --> 00:05:09,254 Speaker 1: of this hostage crisis that the world would see. She'd 85 00:05:09,254 --> 00:05:11,814 Speaker 1: been dancing with friends in the morning of October seven 86 00:05:11,974 --> 00:05:15,414 Speaker 1: when rockets began to score the sky. At this point, 87 00:05:15,774 --> 00:05:18,254 Speaker 1: festival goers weren't sure of the scale of the attack, 88 00:05:18,854 --> 00:05:21,614 Speaker 1: but just a little over an hour later, Noah pinged 89 00:05:21,614 --> 00:05:24,974 Speaker 1: her friends her location with the message with hope that 90 00:05:25,134 --> 00:05:28,814 Speaker 1: somebody will come and save us. Her boyfriend Avi sent 91 00:05:28,894 --> 00:05:32,054 Speaker 1: a photo of them together around twenty minutes later. She's 92 00:05:32,134 --> 00:05:34,414 Speaker 1: lying on the ground hiding next to him in a ditch. 93 00:05:35,134 --> 00:05:37,894 Speaker 1: This would be the last photo of her taken before 94 00:05:37,974 --> 00:05:40,654 Speaker 1: they're both moved across the border, but it would be 95 00:05:40,734 --> 00:05:44,174 Speaker 1: the videos that the world would see. The first is 96 00:05:44,254 --> 00:05:46,974 Speaker 1: posted of Noah sitting on a low couch drinking from 97 00:05:47,014 --> 00:05:50,214 Speaker 1: a bottle of water in an unknown location. Her friends 98 00:05:50,254 --> 00:05:54,054 Speaker 1: are relieved, thinking that she's okay, but then a second 99 00:05:54,134 --> 00:05:57,334 Speaker 1: video is posted of their friend and their relief turns 100 00:05:57,374 --> 00:06:00,254 Speaker 1: to panic. She's been forced onto the back of a 101 00:06:00,294 --> 00:06:03,654 Speaker 1: motorcycle between two men. She's reaching out for those who 102 00:06:03,694 --> 00:06:06,934 Speaker 1: walk beside her on the road, pleading with them, don't 103 00:06:07,014 --> 00:06:14,894 Speaker 1: kill me. Noah and more than two hundred and fifty men, women, children, 104 00:06:15,014 --> 00:06:18,814 Speaker 1: and the elderly were spirited off to places unknown inside 105 00:06:18,894 --> 00:06:22,494 Speaker 1: Gaza as Hummas fighters left a trail of destruction and 106 00:06:22,574 --> 00:06:28,134 Speaker 1: the bodies of twelve hundred Israelis behind them. The response 107 00:06:28,214 --> 00:06:31,734 Speaker 1: to the attack was fast and ferocious. The Gaza strip 108 00:06:31,854 --> 00:06:36,054 Speaker 1: bombed by the Israeli Defense Force in retaliatory attacks which 109 00:06:36,134 --> 00:06:39,854 Speaker 1: in some parts left nothing more than ruins, burying its 110 00:06:39,894 --> 00:06:43,734 Speaker 1: citizens under the rubble and killing tens of thousands of people, 111 00:06:44,094 --> 00:06:49,054 Speaker 1: mostly women and children. A ceasefiredeal Is struck promising to 112 00:06:49,134 --> 00:06:52,654 Speaker 1: swap Israeli women and children hostages in return for women 113 00:06:52,734 --> 00:06:56,934 Speaker 1: and children held in Israeli prisons. After seven days, more 114 00:06:56,974 --> 00:06:59,734 Speaker 1: than one hundred hostages are freed, but on the eighth 115 00:06:59,894 --> 00:07:04,334 Speaker 1: day the bombardment resumes, the Israeli Prime Minister's senior adviser 116 00:07:04,374 --> 00:07:08,054 Speaker 1: Mark Regev telling NBC that Hummas refused to release a 117 00:07:08,134 --> 00:07:13,414 Speaker 1: specific group of women that included Noah. Camas reneged it 118 00:07:13,494 --> 00:07:16,294 Speaker 1: had agreed to a list of names, and it suddenly 119 00:07:16,374 --> 00:07:19,294 Speaker 1: couldn't provide these people or didn't want to provide these people. 120 00:07:20,134 --> 00:07:23,054 Speaker 1: A video is then released using a voice claiming to 121 00:07:23,174 --> 00:07:23,894 Speaker 1: be Noah's. 122 00:07:25,854 --> 00:07:30,214 Speaker 2: I'm imprisoned with al Caacne Brigades. I've been in captivity 123 00:07:30,334 --> 00:07:32,654 Speaker 2: for more than two hundred and thirty seven days and 124 00:07:32,814 --> 00:07:36,854 Speaker 2: do not know until we I say to the people 125 00:07:36,894 --> 00:07:40,414 Speaker 2: of Israel, have you become government partners with Netanyahu, Goland 126 00:07:40,534 --> 00:07:44,414 Speaker 2: and guns? Will my fate together with my colleagues be 127 00:07:44,614 --> 00:07:47,534 Speaker 2: like the rest that thousands of women and men come 128 00:07:47,614 --> 00:07:50,334 Speaker 2: out and block the streets of Plaviv. Do not return 129 00:07:50,414 --> 00:07:51,974 Speaker 2: home until we return home. 130 00:07:52,814 --> 00:07:56,454 Speaker 1: Many say this is another example of Hermas propaganda of 131 00:07:56,534 --> 00:07:59,014 Speaker 1: a hostage forced to say things in return for her 132 00:07:59,094 --> 00:08:02,454 Speaker 1: freedom or her life. But a leaked video from an 133 00:08:02,534 --> 00:08:05,534 Speaker 1: Israeli Cabinet meeting in December heard from one of the 134 00:08:05,574 --> 00:08:09,094 Speaker 1: freed hostages who was directing her anger not at Hermas 135 00:08:09,654 --> 00:08:13,054 Speaker 1: but at Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. 136 00:08:14,214 --> 00:08:17,454 Speaker 4: You're putting politics over returning the hostages, and you think 137 00:08:17,494 --> 00:08:20,974 Speaker 4: the men are strong. My husband was hitting himself every day, 138 00:08:21,294 --> 00:08:24,014 Speaker 4: hunching his own face until he would bleed because it 139 00:08:24,174 --> 00:08:25,334 Speaker 4: was unbearable for him. 140 00:08:26,854 --> 00:08:30,054 Speaker 1: Protests inside Israel are also calling for the end to 141 00:08:30,134 --> 00:08:32,854 Speaker 1: the bloodshed in Gaza, the people saying that the net 142 00:08:32,974 --> 00:08:36,814 Speaker 1: Nyahu government is more focused on destroying Hamas than getting 143 00:08:36,894 --> 00:08:40,374 Speaker 1: back the hostages, something that the Israeli government sees as 144 00:08:40,454 --> 00:08:43,494 Speaker 1: one and the same Hamas know that holding onto these 145 00:08:43,574 --> 00:08:46,654 Speaker 1: hostages is a bargaining chip they cannot afford to lose. 146 00:08:47,134 --> 00:08:50,134 Speaker 1: Still keeping around one hundred and twenty people kidnapped on 147 00:08:50,214 --> 00:08:54,294 Speaker 1: October seven, depending on which source you believe, somewhere between 148 00:08:54,414 --> 00:08:58,414 Speaker 1: thirty and forty three are presumed dead, including three who 149 00:08:58,454 --> 00:09:02,014 Speaker 1: were mistakenly killed by Israeli soldiers after freeing themselves in 150 00:09:02,134 --> 00:09:06,534 Speaker 1: northern Gaza. Then on Saturday, news started to circulate that 151 00:09:06,614 --> 00:09:11,054 Speaker 1: there'd been a successful hostage retrieval inside go. The IDF 152 00:09:11,174 --> 00:09:14,414 Speaker 1: claimed they targeted two buildings deep inside the built up 153 00:09:14,534 --> 00:09:18,654 Speaker 1: Newzerat refugee camp in central Gaza, with intelligence in part 154 00:09:18,734 --> 00:09:21,934 Speaker 1: supported by the US Although the Americans did not take 155 00:09:22,014 --> 00:09:25,294 Speaker 1: part in the operation itself, they built models of the 156 00:09:25,334 --> 00:09:28,854 Speaker 1: apartment buildings to train Special Forces operatives sent in to 157 00:09:28,934 --> 00:09:32,094 Speaker 1: do the daylight retrieval, needing to hit the two sides 158 00:09:32,134 --> 00:09:35,374 Speaker 1: simultaneously for fear those in the other would be killed 159 00:09:35,534 --> 00:09:38,054 Speaker 1: if they tried to go one at a time. In 160 00:09:38,174 --> 00:09:41,494 Speaker 1: one building were three male hostages, twenty two year old 161 00:09:41,534 --> 00:09:44,694 Speaker 1: almong miir Jan, twenty seven year old Andre Koslov, and 162 00:09:44,894 --> 00:09:49,374 Speaker 1: forty one year old Shomziu. In the other building, Noah Agamani, 163 00:09:49,694 --> 00:09:52,014 Speaker 1: the girl who pleaded with her captors not to kill 164 00:09:52,054 --> 00:09:56,854 Speaker 1: her from the back of a motorcycle. The IDF claims 165 00:09:56,894 --> 00:09:59,334 Speaker 1: less than one hundred Palestinians were killed in the raid 166 00:09:59,494 --> 00:10:02,654 Speaker 1: after they were confronted by armed militants who fired rocket 167 00:10:02,734 --> 00:10:06,614 Speaker 1: propelled grenades from within the neighborhood, but the Palestinian health 168 00:10:06,654 --> 00:10:09,894 Speaker 1: authorities say that more than two hundred and seventy people 169 00:10:09,934 --> 00:10:13,614 Speaker 1: were killed, including women and children. Their local hospitals, again 170 00:10:13,814 --> 00:10:17,334 Speaker 1: overwhelmed with wounded that they don't have the resources to treat. 171 00:10:18,534 --> 00:10:22,214 Speaker 1: Hammas have accused Israel of a complex war crime, suggesting 172 00:10:22,294 --> 00:10:24,814 Speaker 1: the rescue puts the lives of the remaining hostages at 173 00:10:24,894 --> 00:10:27,454 Speaker 1: risk and will have a negative impact on their conditions 174 00:10:27,574 --> 00:10:30,974 Speaker 1: and lives. Hammas themselves have also been accused of war 175 00:10:31,054 --> 00:10:34,174 Speaker 1: crimes relating to that October seven attack, the deaths of 176 00:10:34,214 --> 00:10:37,534 Speaker 1: the twelve hundred, including those who are raped before being murdered, 177 00:10:37,854 --> 00:10:41,934 Speaker 1: and of taking those hostages. So whilst some celebrate the 178 00:10:42,014 --> 00:10:45,254 Speaker 1: release of hostages, other families still awake news of their 179 00:10:45,334 --> 00:10:49,134 Speaker 1: missing loved ones, and Palestinian women and children continue to 180 00:10:49,294 --> 00:10:52,534 Speaker 1: die while those hostages are being rescued or Harmas is 181 00:10:52,574 --> 00:10:57,854 Speaker 1: being hunted. Doctor Jesska Genauer is a senior lecturer in 182 00:10:57,934 --> 00:11:02,254 Speaker 1: international relations at Flinders University. Doctor Ganower the Israeli government 183 00:11:02,654 --> 00:11:06,054 Speaker 1: has admitted that they had planned many hostage rescues over 184 00:11:06,094 --> 00:11:09,334 Speaker 1: the past eight months that they haven't undertaken due to 185 00:11:09,334 --> 00:11:12,214 Speaker 1: the lives of hostages and IDF personnel being too much 186 00:11:12,254 --> 00:11:14,094 Speaker 1: at risk. Why risk them now? 187 00:11:15,174 --> 00:11:18,374 Speaker 3: So, I think there are a few factors here. I mean, obviously, 188 00:11:18,534 --> 00:11:22,614 Speaker 3: in terms of achieving the outcome of having hostages released 189 00:11:22,734 --> 00:11:25,574 Speaker 3: from Gaza. There's one pathway, which is a sort of 190 00:11:25,654 --> 00:11:29,774 Speaker 3: a political negotiated solution which we did see occur once 191 00:11:29,854 --> 00:11:32,574 Speaker 3: in the past, for the release of some hostages and 192 00:11:32,694 --> 00:11:35,214 Speaker 3: then there's another pathway, which is a more kind of 193 00:11:35,454 --> 00:11:42,454 Speaker 3: military operation to endeavor to rescue hostages from captivity. Now, 194 00:11:42,494 --> 00:11:47,254 Speaker 3: obviously that second pathway is much more high risk. There's 195 00:11:47,494 --> 00:11:51,734 Speaker 3: typically like a small chance of success just because of 196 00:11:51,974 --> 00:11:54,414 Speaker 3: the security risks that are going to be involved in 197 00:11:54,494 --> 00:11:57,654 Speaker 3: that and a high chance of a lot of casualties 198 00:11:57,734 --> 00:12:00,574 Speaker 3: along the way. So I would say that partly that 199 00:12:00,814 --> 00:12:03,974 Speaker 3: is why Israel, you know, if they have attempted operations, 200 00:12:04,054 --> 00:12:07,494 Speaker 3: there hasn't been sort of a successful rescue operation for 201 00:12:07,934 --> 00:12:12,294 Speaker 3: Israeli hostages in Gaza until now. The second reason could 202 00:12:12,374 --> 00:12:16,374 Speaker 3: be that we're also seeing developments in terms of US 203 00:12:16,574 --> 00:12:21,414 Speaker 3: pressure on Israel also on Hamas in order to try 204 00:12:21,494 --> 00:12:25,934 Speaker 3: to get to some kind of more permanent ceasefire deal, 205 00:12:26,454 --> 00:12:28,574 Speaker 3: and it could be that Israel is seeing that there's 206 00:12:28,614 --> 00:12:32,014 Speaker 3: sort of a window that's starting to close in terms 207 00:12:32,054 --> 00:12:35,654 Speaker 3: of going for that military pathway of trying to get 208 00:12:35,814 --> 00:12:38,094 Speaker 3: hostages out of captivity in Gaza. 209 00:12:39,014 --> 00:12:42,734 Speaker 1: So in this operation for Israeli hostages were rescued, one 210 00:12:42,974 --> 00:12:46,734 Speaker 1: idea of soldier was killed, and according to Palestinian authorities, 211 00:12:46,774 --> 00:12:50,534 Speaker 1: two hundred and seventy Palestinians, many of them women and children. 212 00:12:50,574 --> 00:12:53,494 Speaker 1: And obviously some of those would also be Hammas fighters died, 213 00:12:54,614 --> 00:12:56,694 Speaker 1: and we're left in this position when we're looking in 214 00:12:56,774 --> 00:12:59,174 Speaker 1: from the outside. Do we want Israeli people to be 215 00:12:59,254 --> 00:13:02,534 Speaker 1: held hostage in Gaza? No? Do we want two hundred 216 00:13:02,574 --> 00:13:06,134 Speaker 1: and seventy Palestinian people to die in their rescue? Also, know, 217 00:13:06,894 --> 00:13:09,894 Speaker 1: how do we know whether the ends just find the 218 00:13:09,974 --> 00:13:10,414 Speaker 1: means here? 219 00:13:10,934 --> 00:13:14,014 Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's a really tricky question which 220 00:13:14,054 --> 00:13:17,774 Speaker 3: sort of gets to the heart of some complex factors 221 00:13:17,894 --> 00:13:22,934 Speaker 3: around international humanitarian law and the rules of warfare. And 222 00:13:23,534 --> 00:13:27,334 Speaker 3: I think the fact that there has been one successful 223 00:13:27,414 --> 00:13:29,454 Speaker 3: we could say, you know, certainly from the Israeli perspective, 224 00:13:29,534 --> 00:13:32,734 Speaker 3: this release of these hostages, and at the same time 225 00:13:32,854 --> 00:13:36,174 Speaker 3: there's been that large cost in terms of Palestinian civilian 226 00:13:36,494 --> 00:13:39,494 Speaker 3: loss of life. Because of that, I think it's actually 227 00:13:39,694 --> 00:13:42,734 Speaker 3: less likely that we'll see more operations of this type 228 00:13:42,854 --> 00:13:47,454 Speaker 3: succeed in future, just because there'll be sort of a 229 00:13:47,574 --> 00:13:50,694 Speaker 3: higher awareness. You know, we've seen alleged directives put out 230 00:13:50,774 --> 00:13:53,094 Speaker 3: from Hamas that if it seems like any of these 231 00:13:53,094 --> 00:13:56,934 Speaker 3: type of operations are being undertaken in future to unfortunately 232 00:13:57,174 --> 00:14:00,774 Speaker 3: kill the hostages before they can be released. So in 233 00:14:00,934 --> 00:14:02,774 Speaker 3: some ways I would view this as a one off 234 00:14:02,934 --> 00:14:06,854 Speaker 3: pathway for releasing hostages. We've seen the high cost, involves 235 00:14:06,894 --> 00:14:10,494 Speaker 3: the high risks, it involves also sort of israelsbackers. You know, 236 00:14:10,614 --> 00:14:14,574 Speaker 3: the United States are certainly trying to push for a 237 00:14:14,694 --> 00:14:19,374 Speaker 3: more political, negotiated solution that would lead to the release 238 00:14:19,654 --> 00:14:24,294 Speaker 3: of Israeli hostages rather than these type of military operations. 239 00:14:25,414 --> 00:14:28,254 Speaker 1: How much do you think that this rescue operation was 240 00:14:28,654 --> 00:14:32,734 Speaker 1: to solve some of the domestic issues that Israel is facing, 241 00:14:32,814 --> 00:14:36,774 Speaker 1: because protests have been happening inside Israel against Benjamin Etna, 242 00:14:36,814 --> 00:14:39,494 Speaker 1: who the Prime minister, who has been accused of focusing 243 00:14:39,534 --> 00:14:42,334 Speaker 1: too much on Hamas and not on freeing the hostages. 244 00:14:42,894 --> 00:14:45,134 Speaker 1: If the people inside Israel are calling for this, was 245 00:14:45,174 --> 00:14:47,694 Speaker 1: that maybe to placate those who say the hostages are 246 00:14:47,694 --> 00:14:48,774 Speaker 1: more important than Hamas. 247 00:14:49,414 --> 00:14:51,534 Speaker 3: I think that's a really good point, and I think 248 00:14:51,614 --> 00:14:55,214 Speaker 3: that there's no doubt that binjimin Netnahu, the Israeli Prime Minister, 249 00:14:55,654 --> 00:14:59,374 Speaker 3: is going to view this as a political win for himself. 250 00:14:59,574 --> 00:15:04,494 Speaker 3: So he is trying to vindicate this military pathway that 251 00:15:04,654 --> 00:15:08,254 Speaker 3: he has been following and not pursuing an avenue of 252 00:15:08,414 --> 00:15:13,494 Speaker 3: actually some kind of political or negotiated solution. And I 253 00:15:13,774 --> 00:15:17,614 Speaker 3: certainly think that a top priority within the Israeli domestic 254 00:15:17,734 --> 00:15:21,174 Speaker 3: context is the release of Israeli hostages, whichever pathway is 255 00:15:21,214 --> 00:15:24,574 Speaker 3: pursued in order to do that. So for Binyamin Netanya, 256 00:15:24,654 --> 00:15:27,334 Speaker 3: who the fact that these Israeli hostages have been released 257 00:15:27,454 --> 00:15:31,694 Speaker 3: is definitely something that he will now project as a 258 00:15:31,774 --> 00:15:35,974 Speaker 3: political win for himself, and as also in some ways 259 00:15:36,174 --> 00:15:40,334 Speaker 3: showing that the pathway that he's been following is still 260 00:15:40,974 --> 00:15:46,094 Speaker 3: creating the possibility to bring those hostages back from captivity, 261 00:15:46,414 --> 00:15:48,574 Speaker 3: even though as I said, I would cast some doubt 262 00:15:48,734 --> 00:15:51,014 Speaker 3: on that perspective in that I think it's quite unlikely 263 00:15:51,054 --> 00:15:54,374 Speaker 3: that the remaining hostages would be released through military operations 264 00:15:54,414 --> 00:15:54,974 Speaker 3: of this kind. 265 00:15:55,974 --> 00:16:00,614 Speaker 1: You've mentioned the outlined piece deal that US President Joe 266 00:16:00,694 --> 00:16:05,174 Speaker 1: Biden has put forth last month. Depending on whose spokesperson 267 00:16:05,254 --> 00:16:07,294 Speaker 1: you believe, either Hamas has agreed to it or not 268 00:16:07,374 --> 00:16:09,934 Speaker 1: agreed to it, or Israel has or has an advice versa, 269 00:16:10,094 --> 00:16:12,574 Speaker 1: and those who are mediating in Katar and Egypt say 270 00:16:12,654 --> 00:16:16,214 Speaker 1: no one has actually agreed to anything. How do we 271 00:16:16,414 --> 00:16:19,654 Speaker 1: know who's actually agreeing to these things and who is not, 272 00:16:19,814 --> 00:16:22,014 Speaker 1: because there seems to be so many different voices telling 273 00:16:22,094 --> 00:16:25,494 Speaker 1: us different stories about what terms have been agreed to 274 00:16:25,654 --> 00:16:26,334 Speaker 1: and what haven't. 275 00:16:27,014 --> 00:16:29,054 Speaker 3: That's absolutely correct. I mean, I think that the main 276 00:16:29,254 --> 00:16:33,734 Speaker 3: thing that is encouraging about the latest proposed deal for 277 00:16:33,814 --> 00:16:38,334 Speaker 3: a ceasefire is that we actually saw agreement amongst the 278 00:16:38,494 --> 00:16:44,014 Speaker 3: United Nations Security Council members. So whilst Russia abstained from 279 00:16:44,054 --> 00:16:47,654 Speaker 3: the vote on this latest resolution, they didn't veto it, 280 00:16:47,734 --> 00:16:50,854 Speaker 3: So that means we're actually seeing some agreement amongst the 281 00:16:51,294 --> 00:16:55,054 Speaker 3: five members with veto power and the United Nations Security Council, 282 00:16:55,214 --> 00:16:59,054 Speaker 3: so the US, China, UK, France and Russia on a 283 00:16:59,174 --> 00:17:02,614 Speaker 3: possible pathway forward towards a ceasefire. So I think that 284 00:17:02,694 --> 00:17:07,054 Speaker 3: that's something that's really positive. However, obviously what's still very 285 00:17:07,094 --> 00:17:10,294 Speaker 3: complicated is that neither Israel nor hummah Us have said 286 00:17:10,814 --> 00:17:16,294 Speaker 3: with any kind of decisiveness that they fully and completely 287 00:17:16,494 --> 00:17:19,214 Speaker 3: agree with what's been proposed. In fact, both of them 288 00:17:19,294 --> 00:17:22,574 Speaker 3: have raised doubts and concerns, and neither of them have 289 00:17:22,974 --> 00:17:27,494 Speaker 3: fully endorsed what's been suggested. And obviously, without Israel's support 290 00:17:27,614 --> 00:17:31,134 Speaker 3: and without Harmus agreeing, we're not going to see any 291 00:17:31,374 --> 00:17:34,694 Speaker 3: kind of sustainable ceasefire agreement going forward. 292 00:17:40,254 --> 00:17:42,774 Speaker 1: We don't know what exactly happened to Noah while she 293 00:17:42,974 --> 00:17:45,694 Speaker 1: was being held for those eight months by Hamas. All 294 00:17:45,734 --> 00:17:49,214 Speaker 1: we've seen is a smiling, seemingly healthy young woman being 295 00:17:49,294 --> 00:17:52,294 Speaker 1: embraced by her family and friends, relieved to finally have 296 00:17:52,494 --> 00:17:54,694 Speaker 1: her home. We'll have to wait and see if she 297 00:17:54,894 --> 00:17:58,254 Speaker 1: reveals anything about her time held by the people her 298 00:17:58,334 --> 00:18:02,534 Speaker 1: government are trying to annihilate. Thanks for listening again today. 299 00:18:02,614 --> 00:18:05,814 Speaker 1: We will keep you updated as this conflict in Gaza continues. 300 00:18:06,174 --> 00:18:09,014 Speaker 1: The quickie is produced by me Claire Murphy and our 301 00:18:09,054 --> 00:18:12,734 Speaker 1: executive producer Keli rin Tool, with audio production by Tom Lyone.