Speaker 1: Your brain con differentiate if it's a social threat or
Speaker 1: whether a tiger walks into this room right now. Our
Speaker 1: body reacts the same way. So it's actually so crazy
Speaker 1: how you have that feeling physically nauseous, you know, that
Speaker 1: fight flight response of kind of for some people that
Speaker 1: might be nauseous, heart racing, breathing changing. Because we detect
Speaker 1: social threats in the same way as we would any
Speaker 1: other physical threat, so it is a very emotional and
Speaker 1: physical response.
Speaker 2: Hi, I'm a shiny dante and this is but are
Speaker 2: you happy? No one likes criticism. It stings, it bruises
Speaker 2: the ego, and emotionally, it can hit harder than we expect.
Speaker 2: But there's a difference between feeling impacted and taking these
Speaker 2: deeply personal because at a certain point, it's not just
Speaker 2: the big moments. It's the slightly offton in an email,
Speaker 2: the way someone brushes past you on the train, a
Speaker 2: cancel plan that suddenly feels loaded, and before you know it,
Speaker 2: you're scanning for meaning, reading between the lines, assuming the worst.
Speaker 2: Our brains are wide to make sense of social information,
Speaker 2: but in that process, ambiguity often gets translated into this
Speaker 2: is about me. So why do some of us take
Speaker 2: things more personally than others, and when does the shift
Speaker 2: from sensitivity into something that starts to impact how we
Speaker 2: move through the world. In this episode, I'm joined by
Speaker 2: Sydney based clinical psychologist Anita Shimmans. We explore how early
Speaker 2: experiences can shape the way we respond to criticism, whether
Speaker 2: we can take it on board in a healthy way
Speaker 2: or whether it cuts just a little too deep, and
Speaker 2: we talk about what helps practical tools that you can
Speaker 2: actually use in the moment, like learning how to reframe
Speaker 2: what's happening so it doesn't automatically become personal. Here's our conversation.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Anita for joining us for another conversation.
Speaker 3: I'm excited.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really excited about this topic because it's one
Speaker 2: I think again, I feel like every topic is very relatable,
Speaker 2: but this one.
Speaker 3: This one everyone has experienced.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yes, So why do we take things personally?
Speaker 3: Like what's going on in the body and the mind? Yeah? Okay,
Speaker 3: so we've got to get it unpack this a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's normal that we relate everything that happens around
Speaker 1: us back to how it concerns ourselves. So it's normal
Speaker 1: that we kind of have this, it's got negative connotation,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't. It doesn't really ecocentric kind of an
Speaker 1: ecocentric kind of perspective where we relate what's happening in
Speaker 1: the world back to how it makes sense for us.
Speaker 1: So that's a normal default for all of us. We're
Speaker 1: also really good at detecting any potential social threats. And
Speaker 1: the reason why that is is because if you think,
Speaker 1: you know, back to evolutionary history, if I am ousted
Speaker 1: by my group, I will literally die. So I have
Speaker 1: to be quite attuned to what's going on. Are these
Speaker 1: guys you know, am I am I okay here? Or
Speaker 1: are people kind of taking issue with me? So it's
Speaker 1: better to be overly sensitive to that than miss acute
Speaker 1: and have a really dire kind of consequence from missing it.
Speaker 1: So we are all already naturally good to make things
Speaker 1: about ourselves and to be really attuned to what other
Speaker 1: people are thinking about us, and to have a more
Speaker 1: sort of negative lens or threat lens on what others are,
Speaker 1: what signals others are sending us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting you talk about the threat thing because
Speaker 2: I think about the times when you know, my boss
Speaker 2: might be like, hey, can we have a chat or
Speaker 2: even just that alone.
Speaker 3: I notice my body it.
Speaker 2: Feels like it's threatened, it's tense, So like, can you
Speaker 2: unpacking what's going on there? Like what's the emotional process
Speaker 2: from a mind perspective, but also like what we're feeling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's so good because it's actually your brain
Speaker 1: con differentiate if it's a social threat or whether a
Speaker 1: tiger walks into this room right now. Our body reacts
Speaker 1: the same way. So it's actually so crazy. How you
Speaker 1: know you have that feeling physically nauseous, you know that
Speaker 1: fight flight response of kind of for some people that
Speaker 1: might be nauseous, heart rate racing, you're breathing changing, because
Speaker 1: we detect social threats in the same way as we
Speaker 1: would any other physical threat. So it is a very
Speaker 1: emotional and physical response.
Speaker 3: Wow, that makes so much more sense.
Speaker 2: So it's like when I'm seeing my boss being like
Speaker 2: can we talk, I'm thinking a line's about to come
Speaker 2: and eat me?
Speaker 1: Yeah, like literally totally, yeah, exactly exactly. But you can
Speaker 1: see how and this is such a cool thing to unpack.
Speaker 1: Actually a good example because statement is so neutral, but
Speaker 1: we've played so much meaning and it happens in a
Speaker 1: split second, right so you have that immediate emotional response,
Speaker 1: But what's happened between what was said and your response
Speaker 1: is kind of that interpretation of what meaning you laid
Speaker 1: on that, And I assume it's something like I'm in
Speaker 1: trouble or I've done something wrong.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so many layers to it, Like what do
Speaker 2: you find are the most common situations where people do
Speaker 2: take things personally.
Speaker 1: We take things personally in areas that we have closely
Speaker 1: tied to our sense of self worth and identity. So
Speaker 1: if I am a career person, I'm probably going to
Speaker 1: be more sensitive to any cues that I'm not doing
Speaker 1: the right thing work wise than somebody who's actually, like
Speaker 1: I work to live, not live to work, I don't
Speaker 1: really care so much, they might be a lot less
Speaker 1: prone to take things personally in that space. So we
Speaker 1: take things personally where we care most.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so true, because I'm thinking about the times
Speaker 2: where I would take things personally, Like, definitely, work has
Speaker 2: work so important for me, But then also the people
Speaker 2: I really care about, you know, like if you're my
Speaker 2: husband's like, hey, can we have a chat, I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh no, Like it's different because it's not it doesn't
Speaker 2: activate threat. It's just more like concern being like.
Speaker 3: Oh shit, like god, I do you know?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And probably most of us can relate to the
Speaker 1: relationship side because we're really you know, geared as humans
Speaker 1: to care a lot about relationships, and so the people
Speaker 1: that are closest to us have a lot to do
Speaker 1: with our sense of identity and safety, and so we
Speaker 1: do tend to care about what people that we know
Speaker 1: say about us more than you know, some random stranger
Speaker 1: on the street.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely the trolls out there. Yeah, the trolls.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but even that's super hard to yeah, super hard
Speaker 1: not to take a personal totally totally.
Speaker 3: We are human after all, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and our brain's evolved in a place where
Speaker 1: there was no social media, and you know, you might
Speaker 1: have had at best fifty one hundred people could have
Speaker 1: an opinion about you, and so you have to be
Speaker 1: sensitive because all of those really mattered. But now, you know,
Speaker 1: if you've got a million eyes on you, literally, it
Speaker 1: becomes overwhelming to have those say that same brain that
Speaker 1: cares about every single comment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so true, so true.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting too, because something I'm curious about is,
Speaker 2: you know, I can imagine there's no clinical diagnosis to
Speaker 2: taking things personally, right, but I can imagine that it
Speaker 2: might be a feature for other mental health conditions as well.
Speaker 1: Or yeah, yeah, so as you say, like in and
Speaker 1: of itself, it's a really natural and human thing to do.
Speaker 1: And then where does it kind of tap into go
Speaker 1: from something that's really normal and common to something that's
Speaker 1: really a bit more than that. And You're right, it
Speaker 1: might be linked to things like depression. So if I
Speaker 1: feel really awful and I'm scared of feeling kind of
Speaker 1: rejection by and I have all these core beliefs that
Speaker 1: I am actually really not good enough, and so I'm
Speaker 1: looking through that lens, it might be linked to things
Speaker 1: like low mood or anxiety for sure, maybe some personality
Speaker 1: disorder stuff as well, where I'm expecting criticism or I'm
Speaker 1: expecting lashings out or I'm also if I have a
Speaker 1: trauma background, for instance, and I am I'm expecting people
Speaker 1: not to mean well by me, and that this threat
Speaker 1: in other people that might make me more likely to
Speaker 1: take things personally as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of different factors that So
Speaker 2: how does our childhood pass.
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to go.
Speaker 2: So how does our childhood or past trauma and personality
Speaker 2: play into all of this?
Speaker 1: Again, such a cool nature nurture question. Yes, really, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting to unpack. So I would say from the
Speaker 1: nature side, we might be born with a bit more
Speaker 1: of a sensitive imperman and we might be so we
Speaker 1: might be much more attuned to what's going on around us.
Speaker 1: That can be a really positive thing, but also in
Speaker 1: this case might go too far. But that might be
Speaker 1: kind of from a personality standpoint, what we bring to
Speaker 1: the table. And then there's a lot that happens in
Speaker 1: our early environment that may make us more prone to
Speaker 1: take things personally. So if we're talking about an attachment,
Speaker 1: kind of from an attachment perspective, if my parents are
Speaker 1: really unpredictable, sometimes they're really warm, sometimes they're not, sometimes
Speaker 1: it's just not there, I'm going to become very attuned
Speaker 1: to picking up on tiny little cues because it's become
Speaker 1: really an important strategy for me not to miss opportunities
Speaker 1: to connect. And so yeah, if you've got an anxious attachment,
Speaker 1: I might be very rejection sensitive and be looking out
Speaker 1: for those cues and much more sensitive to them compared
Speaker 1: to someone who doesn't have that anxious attachment. I've got
Speaker 1: a more avoidant attachment. So if I'm used to people
Speaker 1: can't be relied on and I have to find for myself,
Speaker 1: I might just have a lot more of a defensive
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, keep you at bay kind of
Speaker 1: mindset and expect that everything you have to say to
Speaker 1: me or do towards me is somehow doesn't have the
Speaker 1: best intentions. That will impact that as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because as you're like talking it out,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, I'm like, wow, that's so exhausting. Like, no
Speaker 2: matter what you fall into in terms of those attachment types,
Speaker 2: I'm like, wow, just to have that constantly in the
Speaker 2: back of your mind is a lot.
Speaker 1: It is, Yeah, And it's just it's so automatic as well.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's exhausting when you perceive the world through
Speaker 1: kind of a threat lens and it takes a toll.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like there's any gender differences when it
Speaker 2: comes to taking things personally.
Speaker 1: It's a great question. I would say there's no kind
Speaker 1: of gender that's more likely to take things personally. I
Speaker 1: think it's the environment growing up more so that might
Speaker 1: make you a little bit more prone to taking things personally.
Speaker 3: But I do think it.
Speaker 1: Might play out differently for men and women. So, like
Speaker 1: we said before, we take things personally in areas where
Speaker 1: we care most about. So perhaps for a woman that
Speaker 1: might be you know, traditionally we might have had these
Speaker 1: societal expectations that women don't show anger or aren't too
Speaker 1: kind of forward, and so maybe any ambiguous comments that
Speaker 1: might show that you've somehow violated those expectations you might
Speaker 1: be much more sensitive to than a guy, where that's
Speaker 1: much more acceptable. Whereas maybe for men, they have different
Speaker 1: societal expectations placed on them not to be too vulnerable
Speaker 1: or too sensitive, and so any comments that might imply
Speaker 1: that at all might be taken up much more personally
Speaker 1: than for a woman the comments wouldn't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing just how like those external factors can
Speaker 2: really drive how we show up internally as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, I think, you know, it's even doubt
Speaker 1: a little bit now, but I would say, you know,
Speaker 1: historically it might have been that there was a more
Speaker 1: gendered element to it, where yeah, women were kind of
Speaker 1: placed in a very particular it was a very small
Speaker 1: kind of box that we were allowed to be in,
Speaker 1: and Sony, any signals that we might be stepping outside
Speaker 1: of that very rigid box would be a threat, and
Speaker 1: therefore we might have been much more attuned to picking
Speaker 1: up on any potential trespasses.
Speaker 2: So does being a part of a culture that values,
Speaker 2: you know, emotional toughness, Like, does that make it harder
Speaker 2: to express when something has hurt you?
Speaker 1: Likely it's still happening, but it's just suppressed because you
Speaker 1: can't express how something has impacted you because then you
Speaker 1: might be you know, yeah, it kind of goes against
Speaker 1: maybe so cultural, but the feeling's still there. But then
Speaker 1: perhaps it's just not able to be communicated, y yes,
Speaker 1: and suppressed and therefore might even take a bigger toll potentially.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't go away entirely, it's just not doesn't
Speaker 1: find an outlet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting too because I think something that I've
Speaker 2: really focused on is sometimes not having that expectation that
Speaker 2: you know, within my culture, that you know, my parents
Speaker 2: can be able to hear me in the way that
Speaker 2: I want them to be heard as well, because I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: they don't have that capacity, they didn't have that upbringing
Speaker 2: to be able to hold it in that way. So
Speaker 2: I think bringing a bit of that kind of compassionate
Speaker 2: less has really helped.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, So how does social media and online communication
Speaker 2: amplify this tendency to feel personally attacked? Like you know
Speaker 2: when you get those you send a message on Instagram
Speaker 2: and it's like the red receipts. You know, it's like
Speaker 2: they've read it but they haven't responded, or to someone's
Speaker 2: like love hearted emoji something but then can say thank you.
Speaker 3: You know, we can spy. They're all a lot.
Speaker 1: That's such a good point because you're missing about half
Speaker 1: of the information that you would usually take in right.
Speaker 1: All the nonverbal cues that will give you a clue
Speaker 1: on whether this is something that you should be taking
Speaker 1: personally or not go missing. So if I saw somebody
Speaker 1: receive my text and their kids are screaming at them
Speaker 1: at the same time, and you're resing someone's at the
Speaker 1: front door and so they put the phone away, I
Speaker 1: would know that there's all these contextual factors that make
Speaker 1: them not be able to respond right now. But if
Speaker 1: I'm missing all of that, I might be there sitting
Speaker 1: right well, I know exactly what happened here, and that's
Speaker 1: because you know she's actually mad at me and that's
Speaker 1: why she's not replying.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Same with comments.
Speaker 1: For instance, do you see my face and I'm sort
Speaker 1: of saying, hey, I love your pants, you might be
Speaker 1: able to you know, even if you're prone to taking
Speaker 1: things personally, it might really give you enough cues to oh, no,
Speaker 1: she's authentic there, and I'll take it as a compliment.
Speaker 1: Whereas if I comment on a picture of yours, and
Speaker 1: you might be prone to taking things personally, expecting kind
Speaker 1: of criticism, passive aggressive comments, and I just said nice
Speaker 1: pants without any you know, context, you might put your
Speaker 1: lens onto that more and then perhaps be yeah, taking
Speaker 1: it personally when it went because you're missing all of
Speaker 1: that other information. Yeah, And when our brains lack information,
Speaker 1: we fill in the gap. Yeah, and we fill in
Speaker 1: the gap in a negative way.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Right, So that's that's what we all do.
Speaker 1: When there's information missing, We're going to kind of jump
Speaker 1: to worst case scenario.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: We really swim in so many assumptions and we're like, wow,
Speaker 2: why do I feel so hurt?
Speaker 3: Oh? I created all of this, you.
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, and I want to like preempt it. But
Speaker 1: it might not be all about you. Right, Well, you
Speaker 1: have to say title in your head, it is worthwhile disentangling,
Speaker 1: like what is what am I bringing to the table?
Speaker 1: What am I layering on top of what was said?
Speaker 1: And usually that is at least a big part.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think I really like the example around.
Speaker 2: You know, we talk about the difference between digital communication
Speaker 2: and just that face to face because nonverbal communication is
Speaker 2: so powerful, you know, it really adds to our communication style.
Speaker 3: So I like that.
Speaker 2: We remember, like there's yeah, there's just so many gaps
Speaker 2: in digital communication, which is.
Speaker 3: And gen Z don't use emojis, so like do they not?
Speaker 2: Is it a millennial scene? Gosh, I should know this,
Speaker 2: but I know a lot of gen zs.
Speaker 1: Know as a millennial, I'm like, you know, heart emogen, yeah,
Speaker 1: communicate all but then gen Z there's just nothing. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, they're too cool, too cool for school.
Speaker 3: I was like, wow, that's even more open to interpretation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the generational difference is exactly exact.
Speaker 3: Yeah. More of my conversation with Anita after this break.
Speaker 2: So how much of taking things personally is about the
Speaker 2: fear of not being good enough versus my egos are
Speaker 2: actually just really bruised, right, Now.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because it's it's connected because what is ego.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's kind of this layer, this protective layer
Speaker 1: of never wanting, never having to kind of feel that
Speaker 1: underlying defectiveness. So it's like an amplification, it's like an
Speaker 1: overcompensation for feeling less than underneath. So bruised ego is
Speaker 1: because it's touching on something that you already believe about
Speaker 1: yourself and you don't want to face. And so you know,
Speaker 1: often the comment might have not even been intended that way,
Speaker 1: but your ego is bruised because there's already an internal
Speaker 1: story about this topic that you've created.
Speaker 2: So it's like giving more data to go within find
Speaker 2: out what's going on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly, And so you know, if I have
Speaker 1: to face that feeling of not being good enough because
Speaker 1: of something that you said, it's incredibly painful. So breust
Speaker 1: ego it can feel actually like the same areas of
Speaker 1: the brain light up in that kind of pain compared
Speaker 1: to physical pain. So again our brain is really it's
Speaker 1: hard for our brain to differentiate different types of pain.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so interesting because I know because before you
Speaker 2: also talked about how our brain interprets seeing a line
Speaker 2: is the same threat as you see your boss say,
Speaker 2: can you have a chat with me? We think that
Speaker 2: our brains are really smart, and it is, but it's
Speaker 2: just funny because when you unpack like the details of
Speaker 2: how our brain interprets things, it makes me wonder. I'm like, oh, wow, Okay,
Speaker 2: maybe I'm giving my brain too much about like there's
Speaker 2: still a.
Speaker 3: Lot to learn and change.
Speaker 1: Totally, it would be cool if it could differentiate actual
Speaker 1: from perceived threat so that, yeah, you wouldn't have to yeah,
Speaker 1: be so alarmed all the time, will but also.
Speaker 3: Hurt all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 2: A lot of what we've been talking about is, you know,
Speaker 2: taking things personally can be seen as like a bad
Speaker 2: thing or we can kind of villainize the term, right,
Speaker 2: but can it be a good thing? Like is it
Speaker 2: okay to take things personally?
Speaker 3: Sometimes? Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: I think you know, when we take things personally, it's
Speaker 1: kind of a cue signpost something's going on that's important
Speaker 1: to me. So it gives you some information that we're talking,
Speaker 1: we're touching on something that is of importance.
Speaker 3: That's a really good thing.
Speaker 1: It also gives you a sense of have my boundaries
Speaker 1: been crossed or have my values been.
Speaker 3: Has it been a sort of an a violation of
Speaker 3: my values?
Speaker 1: So it does give you really important information as well,
Speaker 1: So it's not just bad. The bad thing is is
Speaker 1: if it takes you to a place where you know
Speaker 1: it makes going through life really hard because you're sort
Speaker 1: of expecting and seeing threat at every corner. But butterfault
Speaker 1: is not necessarily something bad, and sometimes you will find
Speaker 1: that actually, even once you've done all the thought exercises
Speaker 1: that we might talk about in a bit, that what's
Speaker 1: left at the end is actually something that you need
Speaker 1: to address with the other person. I think that is
Speaker 1: genuinely important to pay attention to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so true. It's good.
Speaker 2: I think it's really great we shine a light on
Speaker 2: that because I think also, you know, we are human,
Speaker 2: like I think, you know, when we feel like our
Speaker 2: boundaries across or we are taking things personally like I
Speaker 2: do see it as a sign of self respect, being like, okay,
Speaker 2: this is really interesting, what about this? Because sometimes I think,
Speaker 2: if you've been a people pleaser a long time, I'm
Speaker 2: talking about myself, it's like you always yeah, literally, you
Speaker 2: always think that you're the one to play Oh, I'm
Speaker 2: in the wrong. I've fucked up, so I need to
Speaker 2: look at that. Whereas to even come to a place
Speaker 2: where you're like, oh, actually that wasn't.
Speaker 3: Okay, it's really big.
Speaker 1: That's a really good point of seanny, because I was
Speaker 1: coming at it from more like, if you're prone to
Speaker 1: always take things personally, can it still be a good thing?
Speaker 1: But you're right, if you're prone to always internalize and
Speaker 1: find fault within rather than find fault in others, then
Speaker 1: it can actually be a really empowering thing to take
Speaker 1: that as a cue that there is something that needs
Speaker 1: to be addressed here and you need to respect those boundaries.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I find when it comes to taking things personally,
Speaker 2: there is there's a nuance to it, right, So like,
Speaker 2: how do you balance like, I'm allowed to feel hurt
Speaker 2: with Okay, I'm probably feeling this a bit too deeply now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think first of all, just validate that it's
Speaker 1: normal to have bigger reactions to things that happen, so
Speaker 1: you're not weird for having a big reaction, and don't
Speaker 1: layer criticism on top because it's.
Speaker 3: Already enough to deal with the initial reaction.
Speaker 1: Then I would say, if you can give yourself a
Speaker 1: little bit of a pause, and like you said before,
Speaker 1: sometimes our whole body is activated. So can we try
Speaker 1: and downregulate how intense we're feeling this in our body
Speaker 1: as well? And then can I give myself a little
Speaker 1: bit of an opportunity to disentangle what actually happened and
Speaker 1: how much did I layer on top of it and
Speaker 1: the parts that I've layered on top of it. Can
Speaker 1: I give myself a lot of self compassion and take
Speaker 1: that layer of way, and then what's left do I
Speaker 1: need to address that? And then I can come at
Speaker 1: it from a very kind of grounded, fruitful kind of
Speaker 1: perspective rather than you know, reacting in the moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, I'm getting so many takeaways already.
Speaker 3: This is great.
Speaker 2: So what would you say to someone who's in the
Speaker 2: middle of a moment right now and is really struggling
Speaker 2: with taking something personally?
Speaker 1: I mean, often these reactions happen really really quickly. If
Speaker 1: I'm talking to someone who's actually been stewing on something
Speaker 1: for a while, it is probably a bigger sign that
Speaker 1: there is another element to that that's not just about them,
Speaker 1: and it's something that actually genuinely does need to be
Speaker 1: unpacked and addressed.
Speaker 3: If you're in the.
Speaker 1: Middle of kind of in your fields because somebody has
Speaker 1: said something or didn't invite you to something, and you've
Speaker 1: taken it personally, first I would say validate again that
Speaker 1: this is really normal. I would then say, can we
Speaker 1: try and just for flexibility's sake, try and bring in
Speaker 1: other points here of your initial interpretation might be one story,
Speaker 1: but there might be a whole lot of other ways
Speaker 1: that this can be viewed. Can we just make do this,
Speaker 1: go through these exercise and kind of see if we
Speaker 1: can come up with other stories so that we're not
Speaker 1: so married to our initial one, and then that will
Speaker 1: help us to disentangle a little bit more what I've
Speaker 1: brought to the table on top and what has what
Speaker 1: is truly actually a violation of my boundaries or something
Speaker 1: that really hurt me that I do need to address,
Speaker 1: and then go ahead and address it, and we can
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, good ways to kind of communicate
Speaker 1: that in a little bit. But yeah, feel free to
Speaker 1: then say, this has been sticking with me for a
Speaker 1: long time. I've now figured out, Okay, there are things
Speaker 1: I've put on top, and nonetheless there's stuff that I
Speaker 1: need to address here.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean we can jump into it now
Speaker 2: because I'm curious to know, like if someone is sitting
Speaker 2: with oh, actually I do need to have a conversation, Yeah,
Speaker 2: like what.
Speaker 1: Would you advise? Imagine like a continuum and we can
Speaker 1: either be on one side, which is sort of what
Speaker 1: we call passive communication, where you're not saying what you
Speaker 1: need or what you're feeling and you're only kind of
Speaker 1: taking into consideration the other person's needs, and then on
Speaker 1: the very opposite side, it's sort of aggressive communication, where
Speaker 1: you just barge in, this is what I'm feeling and
Speaker 1: this is what I need, and I don't care about
Speaker 1: your perspective, as you might be able to tell. Neither
Speaker 1: of those are particularly good, yeah, for connection, for your
Speaker 1: well being. And nicely, in the middle, we have assert
Speaker 1: of communication. So that's where I'm honoring my needs and
Speaker 1: feelings and I'm taking into consideration your viewpoint, and I'm
Speaker 1: finding a way to communicate that that's most likely to
Speaker 1: be received receivable without defensiveness on the other side, and
Speaker 1: that is most likely to come to some sort of
Speaker 1: constructive outcome. So sure we'll pack what a sort of
Speaker 1: communicy Yeah, yeah, Okay, So there's lots of different ways
Speaker 1: to kind of come at it. I like to use
Speaker 1: a simple one, two three sort of recipe, which is one,
Speaker 1: can we state the facts, so rather than already putting
Speaker 1: meaning or interpretation in it, can I just repeat what
Speaker 1: you said? So these reports need revising. You said that
Speaker 1: to me now three times today. That's a fact.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying you're always attacking me. I'm saying that's
Speaker 1: what you said, so it introduces the topic in a
Speaker 1: way that doesn't make you immediately defensive. Then I'm going
Speaker 1: to say how that impacts me. So that's the second step.
Speaker 1: So instead of talking about your intention or what you did,
Speaker 1: I'm going to say about how that impacted me. When
Speaker 1: you said that three times in a row, I felt
Speaker 1: myself kind of feel a little bit anxious because I
Speaker 1: felt that maybe I wasn't doing a good enough job.
Speaker 1: And then three, this is often what we leave out
Speaker 1: is what can I ask of the other person to
Speaker 1: rectify it? Can I give them a suggestion. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to let you guess how to better approach this
Speaker 1: with me. I'm going to actually give you a path
Speaker 1: so you know in future I would really appreciate. Maybe
Speaker 1: we can have like a little check in once in
Speaker 1: the day where we can talk about what needs doing,
Speaker 1: so that I'm I'm aware that that's the half hour
Speaker 1: where we can talk about that, but I'm not constantly
Speaker 1: kind of expecting, you know, more comments that I can
Speaker 1: then take the wrong way. Do you think that would
Speaker 1: be okay? Can we do it this way?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I love that. Yeah, that is so effective.
Speaker 1: Which is very different from you know, right, I'm going
Speaker 1: to suppress because I'm really hope you know, you've given
Speaker 1: me the feeling though I'm not doing the right thing,
Speaker 1: but you know, I'm withdrawing or angry, but I'm not
Speaker 1: going to say anything I'm really heard or I'm going
Speaker 1: to lash out at you and.
Speaker 3: Say, can you stop saying that for a second, Like,
Speaker 3: you know, it's very different. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So let's say like that conversation happens, right, and then
Speaker 2: the person on the other side who gave that initial
Speaker 2: criticism host if they don't take that well, they take
Speaker 2: it personally.
Speaker 3: You know, and then we're in this kind of right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you run a risk when you bring
Speaker 1: up a need in an emotion that the other person
Speaker 1: then can't take it on from from the perspective that
Speaker 1: you're trying to communicate it. You can obviously help communicate that.
Speaker 1: You know, I understand that wasn't your intention at all,
Speaker 1: but this is how it landed for me, And you know,
Speaker 1: because of how I operate, like, I know that this
Speaker 1: other this other way would really help me not to
Speaker 1: It gives you the best It gives the other person
Speaker 1: the best chance not to take it too personally themselves.
Speaker 1: So a sort of communication helps with yourself how your needs,
Speaker 1: but also respecting the other.
Speaker 2: Person's feelings totally. That's a good point. Yeah, that's really good. Okay,
Speaker 2: So I'm curious because I kind of want to flip
Speaker 2: it now in a sense of the person that needs
Speaker 2: to give the criticism or the constructive feedback, how can
Speaker 2: they give that in a way of not dismiss being
Speaker 2: like coming across as this missive.
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Would they kind of follow that same format or is
Speaker 2: it different?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So I think a set of communication is a great
Speaker 1: tool to communicate anything that's a bit tricky. Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: I think keep it specific to the situation. So don't
Speaker 1: make globalizing statements, because if I'm going to say you
Speaker 1: always or you never it's really hard not to take
Speaker 1: that personally because I'm kind of attacking your whole character
Speaker 1: or you know, so I'm going to try and make
Speaker 1: it very specific in this particular situation. When you said X,
Speaker 1: it made me feel why and I would really appreciate ze.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: That's different to saying you just are such a disrespectful
Speaker 1: person in general, or yeah, don't make it about it
Speaker 1: about the person as a whole.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it sounds like and I really like that
Speaker 2: first step around when you state the facts, keeping it neutral,
Speaker 2: like keeping the emotions out just makes it sound really clean, exactly.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's sort of undernoable. Yeah, that is exactly
Speaker 1: what happened. If you had a camera in the room,
Speaker 1: nobody could that that was how it played out, was
Speaker 1: there's not a layer of interpretation on it already.
Speaker 2: More of my conversation with Anita after this break for
Speaker 2: someone that might be struggling with being able to separate
Speaker 2: the facts to the narrative they're attaching, like, do you
Speaker 2: have any like concrete tools that they can use to
Speaker 2: be able to really separate that out or like things
Speaker 2: that you do in the clinic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So again, I would like to come at it
Speaker 1: from kind of two layers, because you know, if we
Speaker 1: are very prone to taking things personally and expecting criticism,
Speaker 1: there's likely some origin story there that we want to
Speaker 1: unpack a little bit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that.
Speaker 1: Might be you know, trauma or attachment disruptions, so we
Speaker 1: want to address those as well and kind of go
Speaker 1: to the core. But in terms of practical strategies, there's
Speaker 1: certainly things that we can try to try and disentangle
Speaker 1: that a little bit more. What's the fact and what's
Speaker 1: the story? So maybe let's should we do an exercise?
Speaker 3: Let's do it? Shall we tariential? I love it?
Speaker 1: Shall we do the We'll do the report example from
Speaker 1: the boss? Okay, so first step is name your reaction?
Speaker 1: So what's coming up for you? Can you just be
Speaker 1: aware of, oh, I'm getting really angry or really upset here,
Speaker 1: and maybe even a layer deeper, this makes me feel
Speaker 1: like I'm not enough. Okay, So can we name the
Speaker 1: reaction that's coming up that will give you your cue?
Speaker 1: This is a moment to do this little exercise to
Speaker 1: to to not react in the moment and give myself
Speaker 1: a second to reevaluate. So step two could then be
Speaker 1: fact versus story. So what was said or like your example,
Speaker 1: before your boss said I want to can we have
Speaker 1: a chat? That was the fact and the story was
Speaker 1: I've done something wrong? Can we can we can we
Speaker 1: start disentangling that? Or in my example that I said
Speaker 1: before my boss said these these reports need revision and
Speaker 1: I've heard he thinks I competent? Might and then step three,
Speaker 1: can we come up with two alternatives? Even if you
Speaker 1: don't buy into them, just let's just for the sake
Speaker 1: of it, try and come up with two alternative explanations.
Speaker 1: Can you come up with one? Why would your boss
Speaker 1: have asked you to come for a.
Speaker 2: Talk because I've done something wrong and I'm about to
Speaker 2: get fired.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's the worst'ba that's the immediate Yeah, it's Challey.
Speaker 3: Just for the sake of it, can you come up
Speaker 3: with two alternatives? Or like what else?
Speaker 2: Like it could be just something like, oh, she just
Speaker 2: wants to find out how I'm going with my project
Speaker 2: at the moment.
Speaker 1: Yep, totally, So it could be completely harmless. Maybe another one,
Speaker 1: do you have any other?
Speaker 2: Another one could be she's probably just checking if I'm
Speaker 2: available for a certain project that I need to do.
Speaker 2: At a certain time, or checking my availability.
Speaker 1: Great, great, yeah, And in my example, maybe my boss
Speaker 1: is really really under a lot of pressure and that's
Speaker 1: why so focus on these reports, or maybe they've my
Speaker 1: boss is really really high on relenting standards, not about
Speaker 1: me being incompetent, but about their standards. So we can
Speaker 1: come up with alternative stories, and then that kind of
Speaker 1: gives us a little bit of a more bigger lens
Speaker 1: through which to interpret what happened, rather than just going
Speaker 1: with our initial one. Yeah, and then step four can
Speaker 1: then be right, now that I've gone through this whole
Speaker 1: experiment of you know, recognizing my reaction, separating fact from story,
Speaker 1: coming up with alternatives, now, can I take that all
Speaker 1: into consideration and figure out what, okay, what our next steps?
Speaker 3: Is this all internal? Is this all story?
Speaker 1: And can I rectify it within? Or is it more
Speaker 1: likely partially fact partially story? And can I therefore address
Speaker 1: the fact in a grounded kind of constructive way rather
Speaker 1: than coming at it from an emotional point of view.
Speaker 2: I love this exercise because even when you were getting
Speaker 2: me to think about potential other scenarios, it was like
Speaker 2: this moment when my brain was confused, I was like
Speaker 2: what do you mean? What do you mean as other
Speaker 2: scenarios that aren't bad, because it's just like you just
Speaker 2: hone in on the worst case scenario because that's how
Speaker 2: you best prepare, right. So it was interesting even me
Speaker 2: thinking of those scenarios. I was like, oh, I felt
Speaker 2: lighter in a way of Oh, it actually did feel
Speaker 2: I stepped back a bit, and I'm like, oh wow, Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 2: there could be so many other options, but I like
Speaker 2: that you give only two because sometimes I think if
Speaker 2: you're an overthinker like me, you can come up with
Speaker 2: a scroll and then you're just paralyzed still in thoughts.
Speaker 2: So I like that it's too other alternatives. Let's stick
Speaker 2: with two, just to bring in some cognitive flexibility and
Speaker 2: just to realize, oh my gosh, there's a lot that
Speaker 2: I brought to this that might not be the fact.
Speaker 3: Here at all. Yeah, totally, totally.
Speaker 2: It's funny because you know how people always say, oh,
Speaker 2: just get over it, like you'll be fine.
Speaker 3: How do we actually get over it?
Speaker 2: Like, I know you've given some strategies, is there anything
Speaker 2: else that you would recommend? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think you know, once you've gone through that exercise
Speaker 1: and you figured out Okay, the internal stuff, this is
Speaker 1: old stuff. This is because my mum was always quite critical,
Speaker 1: or because you know, at this one job, that's how
Speaker 1: that conversation started. I did get fired. But this is
Speaker 1: not the current situation. Once we've been able to kind
Speaker 1: of work through the story stuff, if there is still fact,
Speaker 1: you don't have to just get over it and pretend
Speaker 1: like it's all good.
Speaker 3: Address it.
Speaker 1: You deserve it to be addressed, and then you can
Speaker 1: come at it once you've done that exercise and disentangled it.
Speaker 1: You can come at it from a more grounded, kind
Speaker 1: of level headed perspective rather than coming in with raw emotions,
Speaker 1: which will make it more likely that you can get
Speaker 1: your needs heard and met.
Speaker 3: So don't just feel like you have to bury it.
Speaker 3: You get to address it. Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2: I think something that I'm curious about because I'm sure
Speaker 2: there's people out there that are like, but Anita, I've
Speaker 2: tried all these stratg jeez, like I've done all of
Speaker 2: this and it's still not working. Like I'm still taking
Speaker 2: things personally. Is that when they will come to see
Speaker 2: you or like get further support.
Speaker 3: In that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're you're own expert. You know, if
Speaker 1: if this is just something that is affecting you left,
Speaker 1: right and center and every relationship in every setting and
Speaker 1: it's it's then it probably is a sign that there's
Speaker 1: something a little bit deeper, and we do need to
Speaker 1: go to the core of where this all is coming
Speaker 1: from so that we can loosen, you know, the pullback
Speaker 1: into taking everything personally. Therapy is not the only way though,
Speaker 1: So there's certainly, you know, things that you can do
Speaker 1: with repetition. If we do the sex us that we
Speaker 1: just said over and over again and start bringing in
Speaker 1: this cognitive flexibility in every situation, it starts to become
Speaker 1: a little bit of a default that we don't just
Speaker 1: run with our first story. But it's going to take
Speaker 1: a little bit of time because again, these patterns are
Speaker 1: well entrenched, and even just bringing in this new realization
Speaker 1: that oh, my interpretation isn't reality, it's just my story
Speaker 1: that I'm layering on top, I've got now got a
Speaker 1: tool to bring in some flexibility in some room. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's going to take time to practice that, but it
Speaker 1: will start to close that gap.
Speaker 3: Between logic and feeling.
Speaker 1: It takes emotions are a bit slower, just give it
Speaker 1: a little bit of time with repetition that you will
Speaker 1: get there. Yeah, and if you don't, then you deserve
Speaker 1: a little bit of support to unpack what's going on underneath. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like trusting the process, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3: What about if you're in.
Speaker 2: A situation right You're hanging out with your friends and
Speaker 2: someone throws a joke at you and everyone's having a
Speaker 2: good laugh, but it actually hurts, like you actually do
Speaker 2: take it personally, Like how do you address that? Like
Speaker 2: do you raise it in the moment, do you pull
Speaker 2: them aside later? Is it something that's just your own
Speaker 2: inner reflection, Like yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's no one right way to do it,
Speaker 1: but I think a great place to start is to
Speaker 1: kind of do some inner soothing as well, so you
Speaker 1: can almost give yourself that inner part that feels a
Speaker 1: bit vulnerable a little bit of a sort of a
Speaker 1: symbolic hug and Zach, actually this was okay, it's not
Speaker 1: an attack about who you are, and you know, take
Speaker 1: a little bit of a pause before reacting. That being said,
Speaker 1: if you feel like this friend is always mattering in
Speaker 1: this way, that kind of you know, I'm I'm kind
Speaker 1: of at the brunt of the joke, then you know
Speaker 1: it's okay to address it as well. But I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: if we've done these exercises where we're sort of these
Speaker 1: thought exercises of going through why would this person have
Speaker 1: said that? And is it much more about a humorous
Speaker 1: comment and very little to do about who I am
Speaker 1: as a person, it might already help to diffuse that.
Speaker 1: If it still doesn't, and it's still just sitting wrong
Speaker 1: with you and it just still hurts, then you can
Speaker 1: do some of that in a soothing to try and
Speaker 1: help that inner feeling, but then also feel free to
Speaker 1: kind of address it. Maybe you could you want to
Speaker 1: delay it. Maybe it's not right then and there. Maybe
Speaker 1: you want to see if this plays out and again
Speaker 1: again again, and if so, then it might become worthy
Speaker 1: of addressing. But you're the best judge of whether that's
Speaker 1: something that you can absorb and neutralize internally or whether
Speaker 1: that needs to be addressed. But it's common that sometimes
Speaker 1: intention and how it lands is not the same thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what I really love about a sert of communication
Speaker 2: is that you know, you're building that muscle of what
Speaker 2: it looks like to have a healthy relationship, you know,
Speaker 2: and fostering that but also having a healthy relationship with
Speaker 2: yourself because when you did take something personally, that was
Speaker 2: data telling you, hey, there's something we need to address
Speaker 2: here for you and your value, but also your value
Speaker 2: within that dynamic.
Speaker 3: So yeah, there's a lot we can learn from that.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.
Speaker 1: I think it's so nice how you know, in a
Speaker 1: set of communication, I'm looking after my needs, I'm looking
Speaker 1: after your needs, and you know, happy days we can
Speaker 1: we can have, you know, much more of a harmonious
Speaker 1: relationship and connection if if both of us are respected
Speaker 1: and heard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of the time, it's like
Speaker 2: in the lead up of having those conversations, it can
Speaker 2: be really scary, so like normalizing that because you know,
Speaker 2: you kind of have to confront a pattern that's kind
Speaker 2: of keeping you stuff. But once you get through the
Speaker 2: other side you have that conversation, you feel a lot lighter.
Speaker 3: That's true, and so much more connected as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that rupture and repair process and once you're prepared, it.
Speaker 3: Evolves your relationship or your connection.
Speaker 2: Okay, I loved how relatable this conversation was, and I
Speaker 2: hope you feel less alone and more equipped next time
Speaker 2: you do take something personally. Thank you to Anita for
Speaker 2: joining me on this episode today. You can find links
Speaker 2: to her work in our show notes. Mama Mia acknowledges
Speaker 2: the traditional owners of the land and waters on which
Speaker 2: this podcast was recorded