WEBVTT - Absolutely Everything Is Feminism’s Fault! 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.382 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:22.302 that this podcast is recorded on Hello, and welcome to 0:00:22.342 --> 0:00:25.261 Mamma Mia Out Loud, where women come to debrief. 0:00:25.781 --> 0:00:27.742 I'm Holly Wayne, I'm mea. 0:00:27.582 --> 0:00:29.261 Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 0:00:29.302 --> 0:00:32.221 And here's what's landed on our agenda for today, Friday, 0:00:32.262 --> 0:00:36.542 the twenty seventh of June, Another day, another man hosting 0:00:36.582 --> 0:00:39.262 a panel of women to debate whether feminism has failed. 0:00:39.662 --> 0:00:42.102 And there's a new breed of feminists called a maternal 0:00:42.142 --> 0:00:45.302 feminist that's making some women on this podcast at least 0:00:45.582 --> 0:00:46.422 a little bristly. 0:00:46.862 --> 0:00:50.822 Also, what can we learn from Taylor Swift's date night dressing? 0:00:51.142 --> 0:00:53.422 And I don't know if you're watching the new season 0:00:53.662 --> 0:00:56.542 of DCC, but it's actually packed these gas lighting the 0:00:56.742 --> 0:00:59.982 sex money drama we are going to be unpacking. 0:00:59.982 --> 0:01:02.462 That does a lot to talk about. First of all, 0:01:02.582 --> 0:01:03.982 Jesse Stevens. 0:01:03.542 --> 0:01:06.181 In case he missed it, apparently I might have cortersole face. 0:01:06.222 --> 0:01:07.381 Oh what's cartersold face? 0:01:08.021 --> 0:01:12.581 Cortersold face is when your face is puffy, apparently, and 0:01:12.742 --> 0:01:16.142 you may be hearing the word cortisol a lot lately, 0:01:16.222 --> 0:01:17.822 you might be hearing it in the context of like 0:01:18.102 --> 0:01:21.982 there's a quarterisole diet or signs of high cortisole like 0:01:21.982 --> 0:01:24.622 apparently your eye twitching or your ears ringing or something 0:01:24.662 --> 0:01:27.941 like that. And even apparently there's a quartisole cocktail that 0:01:27.982 --> 0:01:28.582 doesn't follow me. 0:01:28.662 --> 0:01:30.062 That's fine, Off, drink cordiso. 0:01:30.422 --> 0:01:31.142 It's cortisol. 0:01:31.262 --> 0:01:33.022 Good cortisol pad so. 0:01:33.182 --> 0:01:36.182 Cortisol is the body's primary stress hormone, and allegedly it 0:01:36.222 --> 0:01:38.902 can make your face puffy, hence cortisole face. 0:01:38.982 --> 0:01:41.702 Look doctors stressed, does my face puff up? I thought 0:01:41.702 --> 0:01:44.022 when I was stressed, I just looked more haggard even 0:01:44.062 --> 0:01:44.622 than usual. 0:01:44.862 --> 0:01:45.662 That's what I thought too. 0:01:45.662 --> 0:01:48.782 I haven't noticed the puffiness, And doctors wanted on the 0:01:48.822 --> 0:01:50.982 record that this is not a thing. You're not going 0:01:51.022 --> 0:01:53.422 to walk into the doctor and they're going to go, Holly, Wayne, Right, 0:01:53.662 --> 0:01:55.022 you got that quarterizole face again. 0:01:55.182 --> 0:01:57.542 I mean, I shouldn't let someone diagnose me on social media. 0:01:57.622 --> 0:01:58.582 No, you shouldn't. 0:01:58.902 --> 0:01:59.142 Look. 0:01:59.182 --> 0:02:03.182 What annoys me is the corptoring of the language. And 0:02:03.782 --> 0:02:07.302 if you're feeling stressed, that's so fine, But just say 0:02:07.342 --> 0:02:10.901 that you're feeling stressed, rather than to all of these symptoms, which, 0:02:10.942 --> 0:02:13.901 by the way, could be symptoms of anything anything else. 0:02:14.061 --> 0:02:15.942 You know what, Jesse, It's just occurred to me. You 0:02:16.022 --> 0:02:18.702 know how people always say, and I don't know if 0:02:18.742 --> 0:02:21.462 this is true, that people who live in really cold 0:02:21.462 --> 0:02:24.142 climates like the Inuit, they have a thousand words for 0:02:24.181 --> 0:02:27.142 snow because they have some kinds of stuff. Do you 0:02:27.262 --> 0:02:30.742 think we've just invented a thousand ways of saying that 0:02:30.782 --> 0:02:33.742 we're stressed up emotionally? It's regulated. My cortisol is high. 0:02:33.862 --> 0:02:37.102 Yeah. Yeah. Do you think because we're adrenal burst? 0:02:37.662 --> 0:02:40.022 Exactly right? I think you're spot on high. 0:02:40.222 --> 0:02:42.542 The feminism movement didn't unite women. 0:02:42.382 --> 0:02:43.142 It's split women. 0:02:43.222 --> 0:02:44.022 I feel totally. 0:02:44.022 --> 0:02:46.542 Wait listen, fifty percent of young women don't want to 0:02:46.582 --> 0:02:50.702 have children. They're really preoccupied with making money and materialism. 0:02:50.742 --> 0:02:54.302 But we're still looking at society that is increasingly telling 0:02:54.342 --> 0:02:57.942 women where they could be better. But sometimes feminism expected 0:02:58.022 --> 0:03:01.221 women to be prioritized and both sexes want the privileges 0:03:01.262 --> 0:03:02.382 without the responsibilities. 0:03:02.422 --> 0:03:04.942 Can I just said we are producing women and men 0:03:04.982 --> 0:03:07.142 who are and I'll tell you what I mean by that. 0:03:07.462 --> 0:03:11.302 It'll be an interesting discussion. Will be an interesting discussion though, 0:03:11.902 --> 0:03:13.142 Or is it just. 0:03:14.782 --> 0:03:17.662 Let me explain what we were just listening to. Friends. 0:03:18.382 --> 0:03:20.662 Everyone in podcasting, there is this podcast called Diary of 0:03:20.662 --> 0:03:22.901 a CEO. Right, It's one of the biggest podcasts in 0:03:22.942 --> 0:03:26.502 the world. It's hosted by this young British entrepreneur and 0:03:26.582 --> 0:03:30.262 investi called Stephen Bartlett. He's also like a judge on 0:03:30.342 --> 0:03:32.862 the English version of Shark Tank. Like he's a big deal. Right. 0:03:33.502 --> 0:03:36.582 He's very earnest and he's interested in everything, allegedly, and 0:03:36.662 --> 0:03:39.942 his episodes are marked by their extraordinary length. This one 0:03:40.422 --> 0:03:41.542 fourteen hours. 0:03:41.342 --> 0:03:42.782 There's two and a half hours. 0:03:43.462 --> 0:03:45.102 This one was many hours of my life. 0:03:45.142 --> 0:03:46.382 We listened so you don't have to. 0:03:47.262 --> 0:03:50.942 And also their extraordinary success. He says that he started 0:03:50.942 --> 0:03:53.262 this back in twenty seventeen to get inside the heads 0:03:53.262 --> 0:03:55.782 of other CEOs because he was obviously this very young, 0:03:55.822 --> 0:03:59.462 successful dude. And now it gets around, he says, ten 0:03:59.462 --> 0:04:01.742 million listens and views a month. It's big, big, big. 0:04:01.782 --> 0:04:04.382 He is also kind of I don't know, I'll ask 0:04:04.382 --> 0:04:06.062 you if you agree with this Jesse. He says he's 0:04:06.102 --> 0:04:09.102 politically agnostic, so he will and does have pretty much 0:04:09.142 --> 0:04:11.742 anyone the big voice on there, and he's not afraid 0:04:11.782 --> 0:04:13.982 of like a bit of a culture war biff or 0:04:14.022 --> 0:04:16.262 a bit of pseudoscience. He doesn't really have a point 0:04:16.301 --> 0:04:16.662 of view. 0:04:16.981 --> 0:04:20.702 No, I don't think so. And his audience, I would say, 0:04:20.822 --> 0:04:22.862 are made up of men and women, Like I don't 0:04:22.861 --> 0:04:26.022 think he's probably appeals to men in the same way 0:04:26.061 --> 0:04:27.941 that like a Joe Rogan. I think he's different to 0:04:27.981 --> 0:04:28.581 a Joe Rogan. 0:04:28.582 --> 0:04:30.462 And he has lots of different kinds of people, and 0:04:30.541 --> 0:04:32.662 he has celebrities on, and he has business leaders on, 0:04:32.702 --> 0:04:36.022 and he has psychologists on, etc. Anyway, let's get to this. 0:04:36.022 --> 0:04:40.142 This week's episode is called the Feminism Debate. Is feminism 0:04:40.142 --> 0:04:43.221 betraying women? Question mark? The hidden risk of casual sex? 0:04:43.301 --> 0:04:48.061 Exclamation point? And is feminism creating lonely, broken, sexless men 0:04:48.262 --> 0:04:49.662 question mark exclamation point. 0:04:50.142 --> 0:04:53.342 So that's feminism in capitals. That's an important I think 0:04:53.342 --> 0:04:53.782 it might be. 0:04:53.902 --> 0:04:54.182 It is. 0:04:56.222 --> 0:04:58.742 And the guests are Louise Perry. We've had her on 0:04:58.782 --> 0:05:02.622 No Filter. She is a journal and author. Deborah Francis 0:05:02.621 --> 0:05:05.342 White and Erica Kommissar. I'll tell you a little bit 0:05:05.381 --> 0:05:07.741 about who they are too. They were chosen for this debate, 0:05:07.821 --> 0:05:11.821 I think for their quite specific feminist positions. Louise is 0:05:12.022 --> 0:05:15.701 very anti sex positive culture. She's very convincing on why 0:05:15.741 --> 0:05:18.501 she thinks that's been very bad for women. Deborah is 0:05:18.541 --> 0:05:22.421 a pretty straightforward, like liberal second wave feminist. Really, she's 0:05:22.462 --> 0:05:25.421 the host of the Guilty Feminist podcast and books, and 0:05:25.501 --> 0:05:30.342 she's worried about creeping puritanical values. Right and Erica's area 0:05:30.501 --> 0:05:35.301 of expertise, apparently, Jesse has thoughts is childhood development and attachment. 0:05:35.381 --> 0:05:38.581 She has a very traditional view about early parenthood. So 0:05:38.621 --> 0:05:42.022 we're basically discussing sex, mothering, and work. What could possibly 0:05:42.061 --> 0:05:46.021 go wrong? My first question is why, because we're seeing 0:05:46.101 --> 0:05:47.861 I feel like we're seeing quite a lot of this 0:05:47.902 --> 0:05:50.181 around at the minute. Like Piers Morgan had a feminist 0:05:50.181 --> 0:05:50.821 debate reach. 0:05:50.662 --> 0:05:53.782 This is the second feminist debate I've watched against your 0:05:53.782 --> 0:05:57.702 will because I watched, against my will of high profile 0:05:57.782 --> 0:06:02.502 men bringing in the ladies with opposing views to argue. 0:06:02.541 --> 0:06:05.381 And before we get into it, I was kind of 0:06:05.421 --> 0:06:08.462 resistant to doing this as a segment because I reject 0:06:08.501 --> 0:06:13.021 the premise of debating feminism. If you believe that feminism 0:06:13.142 --> 0:06:16.741 is about women having equal rights to men, are we 0:06:16.821 --> 0:06:19.422 actually debating that? I agree with the point of it. 0:06:19.421 --> 0:06:21.662 It just feels very clickbaity rage baity. 0:06:21.782 --> 0:06:25.342 That's why I want to prosecute why right, because I'm 0:06:25.342 --> 0:06:26.662 seeing a lot of this around at the minute, and 0:06:26.662 --> 0:06:28.782 it's very YouTube stock standard at the minute to get 0:06:28.782 --> 0:06:31.261 a trad wife and get a second wave feminist and 0:06:31.262 --> 0:06:34.701 get them to biff on about stuff like debating feminism, 0:06:34.741 --> 0:06:36.981 which again to me, me or I feel a bit 0:06:37.022 --> 0:06:38.541 like you do, Like I thought that was kind of 0:06:38.582 --> 0:06:40.342 sortid is hot right now? 0:06:40.421 --> 0:06:41.902 Yeah? Like, are we going to give back the vote? 0:06:41.902 --> 0:06:44.182 Are we debating whether we should stop wearing pants or 0:06:44.301 --> 0:06:46.541 having access to our own bank accounts? What actually are 0:06:46.541 --> 0:06:47.582 we debating? Fair? 0:06:47.941 --> 0:06:50.582 And why Jesse? Why are we seeing it all over everywhere? 0:06:50.662 --> 0:06:54.261 I actually think this is an important exercise and I 0:06:54.462 --> 0:06:58.501 found it interesting, if not at times in raging, and 0:06:58.782 --> 0:07:01.421 I disagreed with a lot of it. I agreed with 0:07:01.462 --> 0:07:04.941 some of it, but a social movement like feminism, which 0:07:04.981 --> 0:07:07.981 has evolved over time and has had multiple waves and 0:07:08.061 --> 0:07:12.302 involved so many different demographics and is now facing very 0:07:12.422 --> 0:07:15.862 modern problems. There was a point made early in the 0:07:15.902 --> 0:07:19.261 podcast about how some women have felt bullied by feminism, 0:07:19.381 --> 0:07:22.622 and they kind of talked about this maternal feminism being 0:07:22.662 --> 0:07:26.382 a way to address a gap that's existed in a 0:07:26.422 --> 0:07:28.341 lot of feminist theory, which is that they've not quite 0:07:28.422 --> 0:07:30.582 known what to do with motherhood. In order to get 0:07:30.622 --> 0:07:33.582 women into the workplace, I had to devalue motherhood to 0:07:33.622 --> 0:07:36.982 an extent. And so what's happened as a result is 0:07:36.982 --> 0:07:40.021 that women who find themselves making the choice to stay 0:07:40.022 --> 0:07:43.141 at home or by necessity or whatever it is, have 0:07:43.302 --> 0:07:46.982 gravitated towards whether it's the you know, child wife phenomenon 0:07:47.062 --> 0:07:50.102 or conservatism, because that's the only place that like they. 0:07:49.982 --> 0:07:52.782 Feel valued honors what they do. 0:07:52.821 --> 0:07:55.542 And I think that that is dangerous in a problem. 0:07:56.022 --> 0:07:58.262 I agree. I mean, I think that in some ways 0:07:58.381 --> 0:08:02.422 feminism has really I shouldn't say feminism has done a 0:08:02.462 --> 0:08:04.662 bad job of selling the message. But if people think 0:08:04.662 --> 0:08:07.141 that feminism is about all women should work and not 0:08:07.262 --> 0:08:10.102 be home, and that somehow women who's stay home with 0:08:10.182 --> 0:08:12.542 children and lower down on the leaderboard of what it 0:08:12.542 --> 0:08:14.502 means to be a good woman or a good feminist 0:08:14.821 --> 0:08:17.862 than women who work outside the home, that's certainly not 0:08:17.902 --> 0:08:19.102 how I see feminism. 0:08:19.222 --> 0:08:21.622 Yeah, I reject that that's what feminism thinks. 0:08:21.902 --> 0:08:24.182 I think that the reason why we're having debates about 0:08:24.182 --> 0:08:27.381 feminism right now is because probably in the twenty tens. 0:08:27.782 --> 0:08:30.462 I think there was probably a bit of overall progress, right. 0:08:30.542 --> 0:08:33.702 We remember Beyonce with the feminist behind her, and then 0:08:33.702 --> 0:08:36.062 there was the Me Too movement, which was like this 0:08:36.822 --> 0:08:42.462 enormous kind of cultural conversation, and experts and like sociologists 0:08:42.462 --> 0:08:44.862 and anthropologists will often say that what happens is that 0:08:44.902 --> 0:08:48.261 when you make strides, there is inevitably a backlash. There 0:08:48.342 --> 0:08:51.302 is then like an analysis of what just happened, and 0:08:51.342 --> 0:08:53.662 I think we're probably in that moment now. I also 0:08:53.702 --> 0:08:56.342 think that at the intersection, and Louise Perry said this, 0:08:56.382 --> 0:08:59.462 and I thought it was very true of technology and 0:08:59.542 --> 0:09:04.782 the economy forcing a renegotiation of like gender norms and 0:09:04.982 --> 0:09:06.662 what the role of men are and what the role 0:09:06.702 --> 0:09:10.502 of women are. And that feels quite urgent right now, 0:09:10.542 --> 0:09:12.622 Like we saw with adolescents, I think it's a really 0:09:12.742 --> 0:09:18.622 urgent conversation about young boys and about women working in childcare. 0:09:18.702 --> 0:09:22.822 That's another conversation that's like very very urgent. And I 0:09:22.822 --> 0:09:23.822 think that probably the. 0:09:24.182 --> 0:09:27.142 Well, you say it's urgent, but it's as Hollywood always 0:09:27.182 --> 0:09:29.742 reminds us, women have worked since the beginning of time. 0:09:29.822 --> 0:09:32.702 Working class women have always worked. Women have had the 0:09:32.702 --> 0:09:36.102 opportunity to work pretty much since the Second World War 0:09:36.662 --> 0:09:41.182 and particularly in the last generation. I just don't understand 0:09:41.222 --> 0:09:42.102 what we're debating. 0:09:42.302 --> 0:09:44.582 We've seen it in government in Australia recently, and I 0:09:44.582 --> 0:09:46.422 know that it's happening around the world too, is like 0:09:46.582 --> 0:09:50.582 childcare subsidies, things like that, whether women want the childcare 0:09:50.582 --> 0:09:53.902 subsidies or whether they want maternity leave. And in the US, 0:09:53.982 --> 0:09:56.102 I think that was it was interesting, right because two 0:09:56.102 --> 0:09:57.702 were from the UK and one was from the US, 0:09:57.742 --> 0:09:59.862 and I thought we're arguing different things here because you 0:09:59.902 --> 0:10:01.062 come from different contexts well. 0:10:01.062 --> 0:10:03.022 And also I think you could argue that in the 0:10:03.142 --> 0:10:05.182 particularly in the US, at the minute, it feels kind 0:10:05.182 --> 0:10:07.262 of urgent women's rights are being rolled. 0:10:07.102 --> 0:10:09.702 Back, so that quite literally, Yeah. 0:10:09.702 --> 0:10:12.902 My feeling about this because I'm seeing everywhere and I 0:10:12.902 --> 0:10:16.302 feel like we're being tricked, right, because all of those 0:10:16.382 --> 0:10:19.502 things are so real, and questions about how we pay 0:10:19.542 --> 0:10:21.662 for childcare, whether we even shoued or you know, all 0:10:21.702 --> 0:10:24.942 of those things are really important. But it feels to 0:10:24.982 --> 0:10:29.222 me that at the moment, feminism is the current scapegoat 0:10:29.262 --> 0:10:32.102 for everything that's wrong with the world. Right, so men 0:10:32.302 --> 0:10:36.261 and loneliness and depression. Definitely, feminism's fault. Higher rates of 0:10:36.302 --> 0:10:38.742 anxiety and mental health issues going on in young people, 0:10:38.902 --> 0:10:41.982 Feminism's fault. Definitely. There's a woman on this table, not 0:10:42.022 --> 0:10:45.862 on this table, Stephen Bartlett's table, Erica, who thought there 0:10:45.942 --> 0:10:48.862 was a very direct link between kids not having mothers 0:10:48.902 --> 0:10:51.702 at home in their early years and anxiety and depression, 0:10:52.182 --> 0:10:56.382 an increasingly pornographically addicted culture and all the associated problems 0:10:56.422 --> 0:11:00.422 with that. Definitely feminism's fault. More single people, falling birth rates, 0:11:00.422 --> 0:11:05.582 feminism's fault. Divorce obviously, feminism's fault. Devaluing of motherhood, feminism's fault. 0:11:05.662 --> 0:11:09.182 And it's like, all of those things are real, but 0:11:09.542 --> 0:11:13.702 whose fault they are is the most complicated question, so 0:11:14.062 --> 0:11:17.582 it has nothing in this model. This Stephen Bartlett likes 0:11:17.582 --> 0:11:19.462 saying to that, and I'm not necessarily blaming him, He's 0:11:19.502 --> 0:11:22.382 an interesting guy, but saying, you know, do you think 0:11:22.422 --> 0:11:25.182 it's women's fault that men are anxious and lonely or 0:11:25.222 --> 0:11:27.302 that men don't feel they have a place anymore? Like 0:11:27.382 --> 0:11:31.222 it's convenient that we're not asking bigger, more complicated questions 0:11:31.222 --> 0:11:34.462 that aren't a sexy for podcast headlines, because a lot 0:11:34.502 --> 0:11:36.622 of this has to do with the changing nature of 0:11:36.622 --> 0:11:38.382 the economy, and the fact that a lot of traditional 0:11:38.502 --> 0:11:41.262 jobs that men used to do don't exist anymore. A 0:11:41.302 --> 0:11:43.302 lot of this has to do with technology, a lot 0:11:43.302 --> 0:11:45.262 of this has to do with capitalism, a lot of 0:11:45.262 --> 0:11:47.422 this has to do with social media, and the people 0:11:47.502 --> 0:11:50.022 benefiting from most of those things are men, and the 0:11:50.022 --> 0:11:52.862 most powerful people in the world are still men. So 0:11:52.902 --> 0:11:56.182 it feels like a trick that we're all being blamed 0:11:56.822 --> 0:11:58.222 because we're greedy, feminine. 0:11:58.302 --> 0:11:59.862 And it's also like we're going to get the three 0:11:59.902 --> 0:12:03.222 women on to fix it when I think that the 0:12:03.262 --> 0:12:05.502 two biggest things that you just touched on there. One 0:12:05.582 --> 0:12:07.782 is the declining birth rate. I think that is a 0:12:07.862 --> 0:12:10.182 panic that is happening all over the world right now 0:12:10.222 --> 0:12:12.062 where people are going, we are not at replacement rate, 0:12:12.102 --> 0:12:14.302 and that is an actual issue. So we need women 0:12:14.302 --> 0:12:17.102 to have more bab And I don't think it is 0:12:17.142 --> 0:12:19.342 feminism's fault. I think that it's an economic story. 0:12:19.462 --> 0:12:22.902 Well, hang on, it actually is because if women don't 0:12:22.902 --> 0:12:27.262 have equal rights and they don't get to choose whether 0:12:27.382 --> 0:12:31.982 they leave their husbands or have jobs, or get paid 0:12:32.222 --> 0:12:35.102 the same amount, or use or use contraception, or have 0:12:35.142 --> 0:12:38.022 access to abortion, they are going to stay home and 0:12:38.022 --> 0:12:39.822 have more babies because I have no choice. 0:12:39.902 --> 0:12:42.222 Well, I think it's also something having a baby is 0:12:42.262 --> 0:12:44.302 something that women do with men, so to me, that's 0:12:44.302 --> 0:12:47.462 a relational conversation. And the other thing that I think 0:12:47.542 --> 0:12:49.742 is a really big one is cost of living and 0:12:49.782 --> 0:12:52.862 the fact that you needed two income household in order 0:12:52.862 --> 0:12:55.342 to afford a house. There was a comment that was like, look, 0:12:55.422 --> 0:12:57.662 maybe if families would just not buy the. 0:12:57.582 --> 0:13:00.622 Holiday house then go to Europe so much. 0:13:00.622 --> 0:13:02.982 Exactly, and it's like, no, no, no, You've got two full 0:13:03.022 --> 0:13:06.062 time working parents who are going how are we going 0:13:06.102 --> 0:13:09.902 to get the childcare done? Who are then choosing care 0:13:10.062 --> 0:13:12.542 or whatever they need to and then they're being like 0:13:12.862 --> 0:13:15.542 double shamed for that. And I just need a moment 0:13:16.182 --> 0:13:20.262 on Erica Commissar because as someone who exists on Instagram 0:13:20.342 --> 0:13:24.742 and TikTok, she is stalking me, She's everywhere, she is 0:13:24.782 --> 0:13:26.942 popping up all of the time, and she says deliberately 0:13:26.982 --> 0:13:30.182 inflammatory things. And I almost didn't want to repeat it 0:13:30.222 --> 0:13:32.222 on this podcast because I think that it is so 0:13:32.582 --> 0:13:36.502 upsetting to mothers in particular, but also fathers. Sending your 0:13:36.582 --> 0:13:40.901 child to childcare is a day orphanage, which is a 0:13:40.942 --> 0:13:43.342 contradiction in terms that actually doesn't even make sense. 0:13:43.502 --> 0:13:44.262 Very inflammatory. 0:13:44.342 --> 0:13:46.822 It's so inflammatory, And what I want to say about 0:13:46.822 --> 0:13:50.302 it is that she is looking at correlation and causation. 0:13:50.382 --> 0:13:53.302 She's looking at ADHD and kids and mental health issues, 0:13:53.302 --> 0:13:55.622 and she's going, well, daycare, it has to be that 0:13:55.662 --> 0:13:58.582 you're putting them in the care of strangers and they're 0:13:58.622 --> 0:14:01.702 all screaming and they're all upset, and she's saying that 0:14:02.102 --> 0:14:04.822 as a psychoanalyst. She's sitting there as a psychoanalyst. But 0:14:04.902 --> 0:14:07.261 I don't think that's where it's coming from. And I've 0:14:07.262 --> 0:14:10.141 said on this podcast before, I'm happy for research to 0:14:10.182 --> 0:14:12.702 be unpopular, and sometimes it is, and I think that's important. 0:14:13.182 --> 0:14:15.062 I went deep because I went if there is a 0:14:15.102 --> 0:14:19.342 paper that is proving that sending your child to childcare 0:14:19.502 --> 0:14:23.662 is causing attachment issues which then results in ADHD, that's massive, 0:14:23.742 --> 0:14:27.062 like we should absolutely be talking about that. It doesn't exist, 0:14:27.142 --> 0:14:31.102 like it genuinely is not evidence based. And she comes 0:14:31.102 --> 0:14:33.542 from a very Christian conservative background, which is fine. 0:14:33.662 --> 0:14:36.542 She calls herself a maternal feminist, so she says she 0:14:36.622 --> 0:14:40.982 believes in women having choices, but that they should forego 0:14:41.102 --> 0:14:43.862 some of those choices when they have children. That the 0:14:43.902 --> 0:14:46.022 needs of the child, should you surp any. 0:14:46.102 --> 0:14:48.502 And she'll say something that is evidence based, and then 0:14:48.542 --> 0:14:50.942 she'll say some truth in that, but then she'll throw 0:14:50.982 --> 0:14:54.622 out a word like narcissism, as though the narcissism of mothers. 0:14:54.702 --> 0:14:56.502 She's saying, you know, you have a baby, and then 0:14:56.542 --> 0:14:58.182 you want to go on a holiday and leave the baby. 0:14:58.222 --> 0:15:02.022 I'm like, who who's leaving the baby? Like, you don't 0:15:02.062 --> 0:15:06.622 think that you can still be a primary caregiver while having, 0:15:06.982 --> 0:15:10.262 you know, someone else, Like it's Eric, I pushed. 0:15:09.982 --> 0:15:12.502 A lot of my buttons. Unsurprisingly, I'm trying to remain 0:15:12.542 --> 0:15:15.942 calmt because the thing that's really interesting about this kind 0:15:15.982 --> 0:15:19.302 of just asking questions debate, right because you know, I 0:15:19.302 --> 0:15:21.062 said my thing before about how I think we're being 0:15:21.262 --> 0:15:23.542 tricked a bit in a sort of culture war that's 0:15:23.582 --> 0:15:27.742 trying to make young women in particular feel that they've 0:15:27.782 --> 0:15:30.822 been tricked somehow by feminism and that a simpler, happier 0:15:30.822 --> 0:15:32.742 life would be one where they had fewer choices. We 0:15:32.782 --> 0:15:34.902 see that a lot. That's tradwife stuff. We look at 0:15:34.902 --> 0:15:37.502 it a lot. But the reason why this kind of 0:15:37.502 --> 0:15:39.742 debate is really interesting is I was listening to Erica 0:15:40.182 --> 0:15:42.622 and I was thinking about my son, and I was 0:15:42.622 --> 0:15:44.902 thinking about how I went back to work pretty early 0:15:45.102 --> 0:15:47.862 and we did put him in childcare quite young because 0:15:47.902 --> 0:15:51.062 of various circumstances. And then I'm going, oh, is that why? 0:15:51.062 --> 0:15:53.142 Maybe that's why this, this and this, Maybe that's it. 0:15:53.182 --> 0:15:54.822 And then it pushes by buttons. I'm like, oh, yeah, 0:15:54.822 --> 0:15:56.942 she must be right. I'm a terrible person. And then 0:15:57.182 --> 0:15:59.382 you know what I mean, it immediately starts to eternalize. 0:15:59.382 --> 0:16:01.542 And the thing is that why this stuff is tricky 0:16:02.142 --> 0:16:05.262 is that these three smart women who are good at arguing, 0:16:05.702 --> 0:16:08.662 and they were all good at arguing, got through all 0:16:08.742 --> 0:16:11.102 the sort of push button issues all the way from 0:16:11.222 --> 0:16:13.182 should a man open a door for a woman like 0:16:13.342 --> 0:16:16.822 who gives a shit honestly? Through to staying at home 0:16:17.422 --> 0:16:20.182 through to pornography, all these things, and they're really engaging 0:16:20.222 --> 0:16:23.542 interesting discussions, but it all seems to just end up 0:16:23.582 --> 0:16:26.742 back on women's laps. Whether it's whether or not my kid, 0:16:27.222 --> 0:16:30.662 you know, has particular issues because I went back to work, 0:16:31.102 --> 0:16:34.262 or whether women are being violently abused in the name 0:16:34.302 --> 0:16:37.062 of pornography and it's because women are too sexually liberated. 0:16:37.062 --> 0:16:38.622 It all ends up back on our laps. 0:16:38.702 --> 0:16:41.662 Yeah, I was interested in because it wasn't just about motherhood. 0:16:41.662 --> 0:16:44.382 There was a lot about sex, and particularly that's Louise 0:16:44.462 --> 0:16:49.542 Perry's area of interest. And she's written about how hook 0:16:49.582 --> 0:16:53.382 up culture has been really great for men but not 0:16:53.462 --> 0:16:58.182 good for women because generally women are more inclined to 0:16:58.262 --> 0:17:02.982 want emotional connection and be very unsatisfied and devalued and 0:17:03.102 --> 0:17:05.422 suffer from low self esteem and all of those things 0:17:05.702 --> 0:17:09.381 through casual sex, and that she believes that women should 0:17:09.662 --> 0:17:14.262 only have sex with someone after they're engaged, which is 0:17:14.302 --> 0:17:17.221 interesting because that means that everyone's marrying the first person 0:17:17.262 --> 0:17:20.782 they have sex with, right, presuming that engagement leads to marriage. 0:17:21.182 --> 0:17:25.341 And she was also saying, as was Erica, they kept 0:17:25.341 --> 0:17:27.901 talking about too much choice, and we do know that 0:17:27.942 --> 0:17:31.022 if people are given too much choice, they get paralyzed, 0:17:31.101 --> 0:17:33.662 they don't know what to do. People do prefer less choice. 0:17:33.782 --> 0:17:36.621 But they both kept talking about there needs to be 0:17:36.702 --> 0:17:40.021 more rules and more structure, and I kept sort of 0:17:40.101 --> 0:17:43.302 shouting at the phone, just like, but what do you mean? 0:17:44.182 --> 0:17:47.542 Do you mean that women shouldn't be allowed to have 0:17:47.661 --> 0:17:50.462 sex with men unless they were engaged? Do you mean 0:17:50.462 --> 0:17:53.542 that women shouldn't be allowed to work until their children 0:17:53.542 --> 0:17:56.421 were three years old, Like, what are you actually saying? 0:17:56.542 --> 0:17:58.941 The point I thought was strong on that, and I 0:17:59.022 --> 0:18:01.502 heard it by a very liberal feminist said in a 0:18:01.542 --> 0:18:04.821 podcast recently which she referred to something I'm gonna bungle it, 0:18:04.821 --> 0:18:08.181 but it was something like the relief of responsibility or 0:18:08.182 --> 0:18:09.381 the relief of duty. 0:18:09.581 --> 0:18:11.901 So let's get the government and men to make rules 0:18:11.901 --> 0:18:12.982 for us, because I don't. 0:18:12.782 --> 0:18:14.621 Know much better what she was talking about. She was 0:18:14.661 --> 0:18:18.621 talking about when you're in a position where your life 0:18:18.742 --> 0:18:21.382 so for example, let's say you have a job, there 0:18:21.422 --> 0:18:24.181 is actually some relief to knowing where to go every day, 0:18:24.542 --> 0:18:26.622 to having structure in your life. And for men, it's 0:18:26.621 --> 0:18:29.462 like there is relief in knowing what the role of 0:18:29.502 --> 0:18:31.422 a dad is and that the role of a dad 0:18:31.462 --> 0:18:34.142 is not to leave and go and sleep with one 0:18:34.222 --> 0:18:37.421 hundred women on the weekend. Like humans actually really like 0:18:37.502 --> 0:18:41.901 being responsible to other people. And that's what I think 0:18:41.982 --> 0:18:44.821 is strong in it that you go okay in terms 0:18:44.861 --> 0:18:49.141 of community. I see men that I young, men that 0:18:49.262 --> 0:18:52.462 I know, and women I suppose that are in this 0:18:52.702 --> 0:18:56.022 state of not quite knowing what their job is or 0:18:56.061 --> 0:18:58.141 what their role is, or who they're responsible to or 0:18:58.141 --> 0:18:59.821 how they should spend their time, and that doesn't mean 0:18:59.861 --> 0:19:00.581 they should be forced. 0:19:00.621 --> 0:19:02.661 So you're saying that there's something to be said for 0:19:02.742 --> 0:19:05.901 gender roles and throwing them out. That's actually agree with that. 0:19:05.901 --> 0:19:08.502 That's actually not so much about gender roles. I think 0:19:08.542 --> 0:19:13.461 it's just about responsibility to other people, and I'm allergic 0:19:13.581 --> 0:19:17.381 to sort of a hyper hyper individualized models, which I 0:19:17.381 --> 0:19:19.661 think is again nothing true with feminism and everything to 0:19:19.901 --> 0:19:23.101 capitalism is I think that there is something important about 0:19:23.422 --> 0:19:26.782 being beholden and responsible to other people. I think it 0:19:26.782 --> 0:19:27.861