Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello, and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia Out Loud, where women come to debrief.
Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wayne, I'm mea.
Speaker 3: Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2: And here's what's landed on our agenda for today, Friday,
Speaker 2: the twenty seventh of June, Another day, another man hosting
Speaker 2: a panel of women to debate whether feminism has failed.
Speaker 2: And there's a new breed of feminists called a maternal
Speaker 2: feminist that's making some women on this podcast at least
Speaker 2: a little bristly.
Speaker 3: Also, what can we learn from Taylor Swift's date night dressing?
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you're watching the new season
Speaker 1: of DCC, but it's actually packed these gas lighting the
Speaker 1: sex money drama we are going to be unpacking.
Speaker 2: That does a lot to talk about. First of all,
Speaker 2: Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3: In case he missed it, apparently I might have cortersole face.
Speaker 1: Oh what's cartersold face?
Speaker 3: Cortersold face is when your face is puffy, apparently, and
Speaker 3: you may be hearing the word cortisol a lot lately,
Speaker 3: you might be hearing it in the context of like
Speaker 3: there's a quarterisole diet or signs of high cortisole like
Speaker 3: apparently your eye twitching or your ears ringing or something
Speaker 3: like that. And even apparently there's a quartisole cocktail that
Speaker 3: doesn't follow me.
Speaker 2: That's fine, Off, drink cordiso.
Speaker 1: It's cortisol.
Speaker 2: Good cortisol pad so.
Speaker 3: Cortisol is the body's primary stress hormone, and allegedly it
Speaker 3: can make your face puffy, hence cortisole face.
Speaker 2: Look doctors stressed, does my face puff up? I thought
Speaker 2: when I was stressed, I just looked more haggard even
Speaker 2: than usual.
Speaker 1: That's what I thought too.
Speaker 3: I haven't noticed the puffiness, And doctors wanted on the
Speaker 3: record that this is not a thing. You're not going
Speaker 3: to walk into the doctor and they're going to go, Holly, Wayne, Right,
Speaker 3: you got that quarterizole face again.
Speaker 1: I mean, I shouldn't let someone diagnose me on social media.
Speaker 2: No, you shouldn't.
Speaker 1: Look.
Speaker 3: What annoys me is the corptoring of the language. And
Speaker 3: if you're feeling stressed, that's so fine, But just say
Speaker 3: that you're feeling stressed, rather than to all of these symptoms, which,
Speaker 3: by the way, could be symptoms of anything anything else.
Speaker 2: You know what, Jesse, It's just occurred to me. You
Speaker 2: know how people always say, and I don't know if
Speaker 2: this is true, that people who live in really cold
Speaker 2: climates like the Inuit, they have a thousand words for
Speaker 2: snow because they have some kinds of stuff. Do you
Speaker 2: think we've just invented a thousand ways of saying that
Speaker 2: we're stressed up emotionally? It's regulated. My cortisol is high.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Do you think because we're adrenal burst?
Speaker 3: Exactly right? I think you're spot on high.
Speaker 2: The feminism movement didn't unite women.
Speaker 3: It's split women.
Speaker 2: I feel totally.
Speaker 1: Wait listen, fifty percent of young women don't want to
Speaker 1: have children. They're really preoccupied with making money and materialism.
Speaker 2: But we're still looking at society that is increasingly telling
Speaker 2: women where they could be better. But sometimes feminism expected
Speaker 2: women to be prioritized and both sexes want the privileges
Speaker 2: without the responsibilities.
Speaker 1: Can I just said we are producing women and men
Speaker 1: who are and I'll tell you what I mean by that.
Speaker 1: It'll be an interesting discussion. Will be an interesting discussion though,
Speaker 1: Or is it just.
Speaker 2: Let me explain what we were just listening to. Friends.
Speaker 2: Everyone in podcasting, there is this podcast called Diary of
Speaker 2: a CEO. Right, It's one of the biggest podcasts in
Speaker 2: the world. It's hosted by this young British entrepreneur and
Speaker 2: investi called Stephen Bartlett. He's also like a judge on
Speaker 2: the English version of Shark Tank. Like he's a big deal. Right.
Speaker 2: He's very earnest and he's interested in everything, allegedly, and
Speaker 2: his episodes are marked by their extraordinary length. This one
Speaker 2: fourteen hours.
Speaker 1: There's two and a half hours.
Speaker 2: This one was many hours of my life.
Speaker 1: We listened so you don't have to.
Speaker 2: And also their extraordinary success. He says that he started
Speaker 2: this back in twenty seventeen to get inside the heads
Speaker 2: of other CEOs because he was obviously this very young,
Speaker 2: successful dude. And now it gets around, he says, ten
Speaker 2: million listens and views a month. It's big, big, big.
Speaker 2: He is also kind of I don't know, I'll ask
Speaker 2: you if you agree with this Jesse. He says he's
Speaker 2: politically agnostic, so he will and does have pretty much
Speaker 2: anyone the big voice on there, and he's not afraid
Speaker 2: of like a bit of a culture war biff or
Speaker 2: a bit of pseudoscience. He doesn't really have a point
Speaker 2: of view.
Speaker 3: No, I don't think so. And his audience, I would say,
Speaker 3: are made up of men and women, Like I don't
Speaker 3: think he's probably appeals to men in the same way
Speaker 3: that like a Joe Rogan. I think he's different to
Speaker 3: a Joe Rogan.
Speaker 2: And he has lots of different kinds of people, and
Speaker 2: he has celebrities on, and he has business leaders on,
Speaker 2: and he has psychologists on, etc. Anyway, let's get to this.
Speaker 2: This week's episode is called the Feminism Debate. Is feminism
Speaker 2: betraying women? Question mark? The hidden risk of casual sex?
Speaker 2: Exclamation point? And is feminism creating lonely, broken, sexless men
Speaker 2: question mark exclamation point.
Speaker 3: So that's feminism in capitals. That's an important I think
Speaker 3: it might be.
Speaker 1: It is.
Speaker 2: And the guests are Louise Perry. We've had her on
Speaker 2: No Filter. She is a journal and author. Deborah Francis
Speaker 2: White and Erica Kommissar. I'll tell you a little bit
Speaker 2: about who they are too. They were chosen for this debate,
Speaker 2: I think for their quite specific feminist positions. Louise is
Speaker 2: very anti sex positive culture. She's very convincing on why
Speaker 2: she thinks that's been very bad for women. Deborah is
Speaker 2: a pretty straightforward, like liberal second wave feminist. Really, she's
Speaker 2: the host of the Guilty Feminist podcast and books, and
Speaker 2: she's worried about creeping puritanical values. Right and Erica's area
Speaker 2: of expertise, apparently, Jesse has thoughts is childhood development and attachment.
Speaker 2: She has a very traditional view about early parenthood. So
Speaker 2: we're basically discussing sex, mothering, and work. What could possibly
Speaker 2: go wrong? My first question is why, because we're seeing
Speaker 2: I feel like we're seeing quite a lot of this
Speaker 2: around at the minute. Like Piers Morgan had a feminist
Speaker 2: debate reach.
Speaker 1: This is the second feminist debate I've watched against your
Speaker 1: will because I watched, against my will of high profile
Speaker 1: men bringing in the ladies with opposing views to argue.
Speaker 1: And before we get into it, I was kind of
Speaker 1: resistant to doing this as a segment because I reject
Speaker 1: the premise of debating feminism. If you believe that feminism
Speaker 1: is about women having equal rights to men, are we
Speaker 1: actually debating that? I agree with the point of it.
Speaker 1: It just feels very clickbaity rage baity.
Speaker 2: That's why I want to prosecute why right, because I'm
Speaker 2: seeing a lot of this around at the minute, and
Speaker 2: it's very YouTube stock standard at the minute to get
Speaker 2: a trad wife and get a second wave feminist and
Speaker 2: get them to biff on about stuff like debating feminism,
Speaker 2: which again to me, me or I feel a bit
Speaker 2: like you do, Like I thought that was kind of
Speaker 2: sortid is hot right now?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Like, are we going to give back the vote?
Speaker 1: Are we debating whether we should stop wearing pants or
Speaker 1: having access to our own bank accounts? What actually are
Speaker 1: we debating? Fair?
Speaker 2: And why Jesse? Why are we seeing it all over everywhere?
Speaker 3: I actually think this is an important exercise and I
Speaker 3: found it interesting, if not at times in raging, and
Speaker 3: I disagreed with a lot of it. I agreed with
Speaker 3: some of it, but a social movement like feminism, which
Speaker 3: has evolved over time and has had multiple waves and
Speaker 3: involved so many different demographics and is now facing very
Speaker 3: modern problems. There was a point made early in the
Speaker 3: podcast about how some women have felt bullied by feminism,
Speaker 3: and they kind of talked about this maternal feminism being
Speaker 3: a way to address a gap that's existed in a
Speaker 3: lot of feminist theory, which is that they've not quite
Speaker 3: known what to do with motherhood. In order to get
Speaker 3: women into the workplace, I had to devalue motherhood to
Speaker 3: an extent. And so what's happened as a result is
Speaker 3: that women who find themselves making the choice to stay
Speaker 3: at home or by necessity or whatever it is, have
Speaker 3: gravitated towards whether it's the you know, child wife phenomenon
Speaker 3: or conservatism, because that's the only place that like they.
Speaker 1: Feel valued honors what they do.
Speaker 3: And I think that that is dangerous in a problem.
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, I think that in some ways
Speaker 1: feminism has really I shouldn't say feminism has done a
Speaker 1: bad job of selling the message. But if people think
Speaker 1: that feminism is about all women should work and not
Speaker 1: be home, and that somehow women who's stay home with
Speaker 1: children and lower down on the leaderboard of what it
Speaker 1: means to be a good woman or a good feminist
Speaker 1: than women who work outside the home, that's certainly not
Speaker 1: how I see feminism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I reject that that's what feminism thinks.
Speaker 3: I think that the reason why we're having debates about
Speaker 3: feminism right now is because probably in the twenty tens.
Speaker 3: I think there was probably a bit of overall progress, right.
Speaker 3: We remember Beyonce with the feminist behind her, and then
Speaker 3: there was the Me Too movement, which was like this
Speaker 3: enormous kind of cultural conversation, and experts and like sociologists
Speaker 3: and anthropologists will often say that what happens is that
Speaker 3: when you make strides, there is inevitably a backlash. There
Speaker 3: is then like an analysis of what just happened, and
Speaker 3: I think we're probably in that moment now. I also
Speaker 3: think that at the intersection, and Louise Perry said this,
Speaker 3: and I thought it was very true of technology and
Speaker 3: the economy forcing a renegotiation of like gender norms and
Speaker 3: what the role of men are and what the role
Speaker 3: of women are. And that feels quite urgent right now,
Speaker 3: Like we saw with adolescents, I think it's a really
Speaker 3: urgent conversation about young boys and about women working in childcare.
Speaker 3: That's another conversation that's like very very urgent. And I
Speaker 3: think that probably the.
Speaker 1: Well, you say it's urgent, but it's as Hollywood always
Speaker 1: reminds us, women have worked since the beginning of time.
Speaker 1: Working class women have always worked. Women have had the
Speaker 1: opportunity to work pretty much since the Second World War
Speaker 1: and particularly in the last generation. I just don't understand
Speaker 1: what we're debating.
Speaker 3: We've seen it in government in Australia recently, and I
Speaker 3: know that it's happening around the world too, is like
Speaker 3: childcare subsidies, things like that, whether women want the childcare
Speaker 3: subsidies or whether they want maternity leave. And in the US,
Speaker 3: I think that was it was interesting, right because two
Speaker 3: were from the UK and one was from the US,
Speaker 3: and I thought we're arguing different things here because you
Speaker 3: come from different contexts well.
Speaker 2: And also I think you could argue that in the
Speaker 2: particularly in the US, at the minute, it feels kind
Speaker 2: of urgent women's rights are being rolled.
Speaker 3: Back, so that quite literally, Yeah.
Speaker 2: My feeling about this because I'm seeing everywhere and I
Speaker 2: feel like we're being tricked, right, because all of those
Speaker 2: things are so real, and questions about how we pay
Speaker 2: for childcare, whether we even shoued or you know, all
Speaker 2: of those things are really important. But it feels to
Speaker 2: me that at the moment, feminism is the current scapegoat
Speaker 2: for everything that's wrong with the world. Right, so men
Speaker 2: and loneliness and depression. Definitely, feminism's fault. Higher rates of
Speaker 2: anxiety and mental health issues going on in young people,
Speaker 2: Feminism's fault. Definitely. There's a woman on this table, not
Speaker 2: on this table, Stephen Bartlett's table, Erica, who thought there
Speaker 2: was a very direct link between kids not having mothers
Speaker 2: at home in their early years and anxiety and depression,
Speaker 2: an increasingly pornographically addicted culture and all the associated problems
Speaker 2: with that. Definitely feminism's fault. More single people, falling birth rates,
Speaker 2: feminism's fault. Divorce obviously, feminism's fault. Devaluing of motherhood, feminism's fault.
Speaker 2: And it's like, all of those things are real, but
Speaker 2: whose fault they are is the most complicated question, so
Speaker 2: it has nothing in this model. This Stephen Bartlett likes
Speaker 2: saying to that, and I'm not necessarily blaming him, He's
Speaker 2: an interesting guy, but saying, you know, do you think
Speaker 2: it's women's fault that men are anxious and lonely or
Speaker 2: that men don't feel they have a place anymore? Like
Speaker 2: it's convenient that we're not asking bigger, more complicated questions
Speaker 2: that aren't a sexy for podcast headlines, because a lot
Speaker 2: of this has to do with the changing nature of
Speaker 2: the economy, and the fact that a lot of traditional
Speaker 2: jobs that men used to do don't exist anymore. A
Speaker 2: lot of this has to do with technology, a lot
Speaker 2: of this has to do with capitalism, a lot of
Speaker 2: this has to do with social media, and the people
Speaker 2: benefiting from most of those things are men, and the
Speaker 2: most powerful people in the world are still men. So
Speaker 2: it feels like a trick that we're all being blamed
Speaker 2: because we're greedy, feminine.
Speaker 3: And it's also like we're going to get the three
Speaker 3: women on to fix it when I think that the
Speaker 3: two biggest things that you just touched on there. One
Speaker 3: is the declining birth rate. I think that is a
Speaker 3: panic that is happening all over the world right now
Speaker 3: where people are going, we are not at replacement rate,
Speaker 3: and that is an actual issue. So we need women
Speaker 3: to have more bab And I don't think it is
Speaker 3: feminism's fault. I think that it's an economic story.
Speaker 1: Well, hang on, it actually is because if women don't
Speaker 1: have equal rights and they don't get to choose whether
Speaker 1: they leave their husbands or have jobs, or get paid
Speaker 1: the same amount, or use or use contraception, or have
Speaker 1: access to abortion, they are going to stay home and
Speaker 1: have more babies because I have no choice.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's also something having a baby is
Speaker 3: something that women do with men, so to me, that's
Speaker 3: a relational conversation. And the other thing that I think
Speaker 3: is a really big one is cost of living and
Speaker 3: the fact that you needed two income household in order
Speaker 3: to afford a house. There was a comment that was like, look,
Speaker 3: maybe if families would just not buy the.
Speaker 1: Holiday house then go to Europe so much.
Speaker 3: Exactly, and it's like, no, no, no, You've got two full
Speaker 3: time working parents who are going how are we going
Speaker 3: to get the childcare done? Who are then choosing care
Speaker 3: or whatever they need to and then they're being like
Speaker 3: double shamed for that. And I just need a moment
Speaker 3: on Erica Commissar because as someone who exists on Instagram
Speaker 3: and TikTok, she is stalking me, She's everywhere, she is
Speaker 3: popping up all of the time, and she says deliberately
Speaker 3: inflammatory things. And I almost didn't want to repeat it
Speaker 3: on this podcast because I think that it is so
Speaker 3: upsetting to mothers in particular, but also fathers. Sending your
Speaker 3: child to childcare is a day orphanage, which is a
Speaker 3: contradiction in terms that actually doesn't even make sense.
Speaker 1: Very inflammatory.
Speaker 3: It's so inflammatory, And what I want to say about
Speaker 3: it is that she is looking at correlation and causation.
Speaker 3: She's looking at ADHD and kids and mental health issues,
Speaker 3: and she's going, well, daycare, it has to be that
Speaker 3: you're putting them in the care of strangers and they're
Speaker 3: all screaming and they're all upset, and she's saying that
Speaker 3: as a psychoanalyst. She's sitting there as a psychoanalyst. But
Speaker 3: I don't think that's where it's coming from. And I've
Speaker 3: said on this podcast before, I'm happy for research to
Speaker 3: be unpopular, and sometimes it is, and I think that's important.
Speaker 3: I went deep because I went if there is a
Speaker 3: paper that is proving that sending your child to childcare
Speaker 3: is causing attachment issues which then results in ADHD, that's massive,
Speaker 3: like we should absolutely be talking about that. It doesn't exist,
Speaker 3: like it genuinely is not evidence based. And she comes
Speaker 3: from a very Christian conservative background, which is fine.
Speaker 1: She calls herself a maternal feminist, so she says she
Speaker 1: believes in women having choices, but that they should forego
Speaker 1: some of those choices when they have children. That the
Speaker 1: needs of the child, should you surp any.
Speaker 3: And she'll say something that is evidence based, and then
Speaker 3: she'll say some truth in that, but then she'll throw
Speaker 3: out a word like narcissism, as though the narcissism of mothers.
Speaker 3: She's saying, you know, you have a baby, and then
Speaker 3: you want to go on a holiday and leave the baby.
Speaker 3: I'm like, who who's leaving the baby? Like, you don't
Speaker 3: think that you can still be a primary caregiver while having,
Speaker 3: you know, someone else, Like it's Eric, I pushed.
Speaker 2: A lot of my buttons. Unsurprisingly, I'm trying to remain
Speaker 2: calmt because the thing that's really interesting about this kind
Speaker 2: of just asking questions debate, right because you know, I
Speaker 2: said my thing before about how I think we're being
Speaker 2: tricked a bit in a sort of culture war that's
Speaker 2: trying to make young women in particular feel that they've
Speaker 2: been tricked somehow by feminism and that a simpler, happier
Speaker 2: life would be one where they had fewer choices. We
Speaker 2: see that a lot. That's tradwife stuff. We look at
Speaker 2: it a lot. But the reason why this kind of
Speaker 2: debate is really interesting is I was listening to Erica
Speaker 2: and I was thinking about my son, and I was
Speaker 2: thinking about how I went back to work pretty early
Speaker 2: and we did put him in childcare quite young because
Speaker 2: of various circumstances. And then I'm going, oh, is that why?
Speaker 2: Maybe that's why this, this and this, Maybe that's it.
Speaker 2: And then it pushes by buttons. I'm like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: she must be right. I'm a terrible person. And then
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, it immediately starts to eternalize.
Speaker 2: And the thing is that why this stuff is tricky
Speaker 2: is that these three smart women who are good at arguing,
Speaker 2: and they were all good at arguing, got through all
Speaker 2: the sort of push button issues all the way from
Speaker 2: should a man open a door for a woman like
Speaker 2: who gives a shit honestly? Through to staying at home
Speaker 2: through to pornography, all these things, and they're really engaging
Speaker 2: interesting discussions, but it all seems to just end up
Speaker 2: back on women's laps. Whether it's whether or not my kid,
Speaker 2: you know, has particular issues because I went back to work,
Speaker 2: or whether women are being violently abused in the name
Speaker 2: of pornography and it's because women are too sexually liberated.
Speaker 2: It all ends up back on our laps.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was interested in because it wasn't just about motherhood.
Speaker 1: There was a lot about sex, and particularly that's Louise
Speaker 1: Perry's area of interest. And she's written about how hook
Speaker 1: up culture has been really great for men but not
Speaker 1: good for women because generally women are more inclined to
Speaker 1: want emotional connection and be very unsatisfied and devalued and
Speaker 1: suffer from low self esteem and all of those things
Speaker 1: through casual sex, and that she believes that women should
Speaker 1: only have sex with someone after they're engaged, which is
Speaker 1: interesting because that means that everyone's marrying the first person
Speaker 1: they have sex with, right, presuming that engagement leads to marriage.
Speaker 1: And she was also saying, as was Erica, they kept
Speaker 1: talking about too much choice, and we do know that
Speaker 1: if people are given too much choice, they get paralyzed,
Speaker 1: they don't know what to do. People do prefer less choice.
Speaker 1: But they both kept talking about there needs to be
Speaker 1: more rules and more structure, and I kept sort of
Speaker 1: shouting at the phone, just like, but what do you mean?
Speaker 1: Do you mean that women shouldn't be allowed to have
Speaker 1: sex with men unless they were engaged? Do you mean
Speaker 1: that women shouldn't be allowed to work until their children
Speaker 1: were three years old, Like, what are you actually saying?
Speaker 3: The point I thought was strong on that, and I
Speaker 3: heard it by a very liberal feminist said in a
Speaker 3: podcast recently which she referred to something I'm gonna bungle it,
Speaker 3: but it was something like the relief of responsibility or
Speaker 3: the relief of duty.
Speaker 1: So let's get the government and men to make rules
Speaker 1: for us, because I don't.
Speaker 3: Know much better what she was talking about. She was
Speaker 3: talking about when you're in a position where your life
Speaker 3: so for example, let's say you have a job, there
Speaker 3: is actually some relief to knowing where to go every day,
Speaker 3: to having structure in your life. And for men, it's
Speaker 3: like there is relief in knowing what the role of
Speaker 3: a dad is and that the role of a dad
Speaker 3: is not to leave and go and sleep with one
Speaker 3: hundred women on the weekend. Like humans actually really like
Speaker 3: being responsible to other people. And that's what I think
Speaker 3: is strong in it that you go okay in terms
Speaker 3: of community. I see men that I young, men that
Speaker 3: I know, and women I suppose that are in this
Speaker 3: state of not quite knowing what their job is or
Speaker 3: what their role is, or who they're responsible to or
Speaker 3: how they should spend their time, and that doesn't mean
Speaker 3: they should be forced.
Speaker 1: So you're saying that there's something to be said for
Speaker 1: gender roles and throwing them out. That's actually agree with that.
Speaker 3: That's actually not so much about gender roles. I think
Speaker 3: it's just about responsibility to other people, and I'm allergic
Speaker 3: to sort of a hyper hyper individualized models, which I
Speaker 3: think is again nothing true with feminism and everything to
Speaker 3: capitalism is I think that there is something important about
Speaker 3: being beholden and responsible to other people. I think it
Speaker 3: makes us feel safer.
Speaker 2: For sure. But you know, there's a lot of things
Speaker 2: said in this conversation and many conversations like this, that
Speaker 2: were really true and interesting and worth turning over. But
Speaker 2: the way that it just keeps coming back to, we
Speaker 2: need some very specific rules about it, you know, because
Speaker 2: even when they're talking about gender roles and parenting, of
Speaker 2: course there are differences between men and women. Of course,
Speaker 2: there are all those things. The way that they were
Speaker 2: talking about it completely ignored the whole idea that men
Speaker 2: have also benefited a lot from these roles being blurred,
Speaker 2: which they have. Yes, I see and know so many
Speaker 2: fathers who get an enormous amount of joy and pleasure
Speaker 2: out of being the kind of involved parent that doesn't
Speaker 2: necessarily mean they're stay at home twenty four to seven
Speaker 2: Paris that they didn't get, you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 2: when you've got the very very rigid view that women
Speaker 2: do the caring and men do the providing and that's it.
Speaker 2: It doesn't only put all of the onus of caring
Speaker 2: and all of the work associated with that on women unpaid,
Speaker 2: but it also robs men of all the joys of
Speaker 2: it because they are literally removed from the family unit
Speaker 2: and their only job is to bring home the meat.
Speaker 2: And it's kind of like, don't we all kind of
Speaker 2: instinctively know that a bit of everything is good and
Speaker 2: that also some people are more suited to this and
Speaker 2: some people are more suited to that, and you can
Speaker 2: work it out in a familial way.
Speaker 3: And that kind of fifties and I think there is
Speaker 3: something maybe particularly in the US model of a wife
Speaker 3: and a husband was not utopia, Like it was really
Speaker 3: really toxic in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: Well that I want to touch on that for a second,
Speaker 1: because one of Louise Perry's points about hookup culture is
Speaker 1: so terrible and monogamy is the best state for women.
Speaker 1: I think that there is some truth in that. I
Speaker 1: think that she was saying that women are particularly young women,
Speaker 1: are being sold this idea that it's really liberating to
Speaker 1: have attachment free sex, to sleep with a different person
Speaker 1: every night, to be on the apps, to not have relationships,
Speaker 1: but to just have sex. And there will always be
Speaker 1: some people that that is good for, and of course
Speaker 1: everybody should be able to choose. But I do agree
Speaker 1: that if we are trying to convince women to be
Speaker 1: ashamed that they want to get married or ashamed somehow
Speaker 1: they're letting the side down, or they're not a feminist
Speaker 1: because they want a boyfriend, or they want to be
Speaker 1: monogamous and casual sex isn't their thing. I do think
Speaker 1: that it's important again, both options are really.
Speaker 2: But as Deborah said in this is that I don't
Speaker 2: think that is what young women are being told. You
Speaker 2: still see overwhelmingly that the ideal that they are being
Speaker 2: told is to get married, and overwhelmingly we're excited about
Speaker 2: engagements and weddings and relationships. I think that all of
Speaker 2: this is about people being allowed to make choices that
Speaker 2: work for them, and for a very very long time,
Speaker 2: women were shamed in all kinds of ways for being
Speaker 2: sexual in any way, you know what I mean, and
Speaker 2: that so it's I don't know. I just think we
Speaker 2: shouldn't even though we just have to a point. I
Speaker 2: don't think we should allow ourselves to be tricked into
Speaker 2: this idea. As you started off by saying here that
Speaker 2: feminism is up for debate and that feminism is the
Speaker 2: cause of all the problems of the world, and just
Speaker 2: a few more podcasts round tables about it where we
Speaker 2: get to say things like are feminists responsible for all
Speaker 2: the angry men? Is like really going to solve it out, louders.
Speaker 1: I have strong feelings about this season of the Dallas
Speaker 1: Cowboy Cheerleaders, which is brought to you by spraytnds and
Speaker 1: gas lighting. We're going to be unpacking it after this
Speaker 1: break out, Louders. We've got a listener dilemma, and we
Speaker 1: need your collective wisdom to help us and our partners
Speaker 1: YUWI to solve it. Here is the problem. I'm thirty three,
Speaker 1: child free by choice, and I have a close friend
Speaker 1: Sarah Sarah who has two young kids aged four and seven.
Speaker 1: We've been mates for over a decade, but lately I'm
Speaker 1: dreading whenever she asks to come over to my place.
Speaker 1: When she brings her kids over, it honestly is chaos.
Speaker 1: They touch everything, leave sticky fingerprints on my white walls,
Speaker 1: jump on my furniture, and last time one of them
Speaker 1: broke a ceramic VARs that had sentimental value. Sarah barely
Speaker 1: supervises them and just says kids will be kids. I've
Speaker 1: tried suggesting we meet at Park's kid friendly cafes or
Speaker 1: her place, but she always has excuses her house is
Speaker 1: too messy or she needs a change of scenery. I
Speaker 1: think she genuinely doesn't realize how stressful it is for me.
Speaker 1: I love Sarah and I don't want to lose our friendship,
Speaker 1: but I'm starting to resent her visits. Am I being unreasonable?
Speaker 1: How do I have this conversation without sounding like I
Speaker 1: hate children? So the question is, if you've got friends
Speaker 1: like this and she asks to come over, what do
Speaker 1: you do next?
Speaker 3: Jesse Stevens, the children are not coming to your home anymore.
Speaker 3: You are not obliged to have those children in your home.
Speaker 3: I don't think I totally get it. It's like you
Speaker 3: are just waiting for them to push over a vase
Speaker 3: or break the tell vision and then things get really,
Speaker 3: really awkward. I think you've got to keep pushing the park.
Speaker 3: Go to the places where they jump on the trampolines
Speaker 3: and they break their arms. Go do that.
Speaker 1: It's unpopular opinion. I don't like seeing my girlfriends with
Speaker 1: their children. I don't have.
Speaker 3: Someone in that stage.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's unavoidable, that's not true nighttime, but you haven't
Speaker 2: always got a babysitter like it is unavoidable. But I
Speaker 2: think that Sarah in this instance isn't being a very
Speaker 2: good friend, because you can tell, unless you're completely unself aware,
Speaker 2: you can tell if you take your kids to someone's
Speaker 2: house whether they're happy for them to be there or not,
Speaker 2: or if they are in a state of anxiety and
Speaker 2: moving things out of the whale. Time I find was Sarah,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't take my kids around.
Speaker 1: So what do you say to Sarah. I've got an idea.
Speaker 1: Don't have a big conversation about how you never want
Speaker 1: to do it anymore. You've just got to take each
Speaker 1: thing as it comes. And there's always a reason. I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry the cleaners are going to be here today.
Speaker 1: I've got a trade here. There's always a reason. And
Speaker 1: then there just keeps being reasons.
Speaker 3: Buy a dog that bites people and be like, I'm
Speaker 3: so sorry my dog bite your children.
Speaker 2: I think MEA's ideas are slightly better today.
Speaker 1: Out loud as what would you do next? Share your
Speaker 1: thoughts in the Mama Mea out Loud Facebook group, and
Speaker 1: if you have a dilemma, send it to us at
Speaker 1: out loud at mammamea dot com dot are you, We'd
Speaker 1: love to help you.
Speaker 3: There was a story in the Good Weekend Over the
Speaker 3: Weekend called date Night Dressing. Taylor Swift makes an effort,
Speaker 3: and so can we. The writer Damien will Know says,
Speaker 3: it reminds your loved one of their initial attraction to
Speaker 3: you and proves to you that you can still flirt
Speaker 3: with fashion.
Speaker 1: So getting dressed up?
Speaker 3: Yes? Now, Maya, you know how to describe clothes better
Speaker 3: than I do.
Speaker 2: I do?
Speaker 3: Can you please describe in this audio medium, yea, what
Speaker 3: Taylor Swift looks like on date night?
Speaker 2: Go out? They seem to do date night quite a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, whenever they're outside together, they're photographed, and they do
Speaker 1: go out to dinner a lot, either with other couples
Speaker 1: or just together, and they are always dressed up. But
Speaker 1: then Travis is always dressed up because he's a man
Speaker 1: who likes fashion tailors like a.
Speaker 3: Fun, jaunty little hat he does.
Speaker 1: It really was interesting that this. I didn't see this
Speaker 1: story over the weekend, but I was actually looking at
Speaker 1: some of the pictures of Taylor and Travis because they
Speaker 1: were out again last week, and I was thinking, to myself, God,
Speaker 1: she makes an effort heels. She's always wearing heels. She
Speaker 1: was wearing a flippy little skirt. She's wearing the millennial
Speaker 1: equivalent of Holly's jeans and a nice top. So what
Speaker 1: jeans and a nice top were for gen x, Millennial
Speaker 1: dressing is like a flippy little skirt, a nice little
Speaker 1: tight top, and either ankle boots or heels.
Speaker 3: And you said she never wears trainers, and I said,
Speaker 3: to you or trackies. She dresses like a millennial. And
Speaker 3: I can say that because I'm a millennial. That is
Speaker 3: how I'm millennial coded. We millennials dresser.
Speaker 1: And he dresses like it's always very coordinated. He loves fashion,
Speaker 1: and NFL players in America really do. It's very different
Speaker 1: like footy players in Australia who do just turn up
Speaker 1: in the team track seat or their Stubbicks or whatever.
Speaker 1: But in a Merica, it's like a lot of them
Speaker 1: are fashion plates. They have contracts, they're sponsored by big
Speaker 1: fashion housards, so they'll wear like a full Louis Vouton outfit,
Speaker 1: and he likes matching things.
Speaker 2: I have thoughts about date night dressing because when I
Speaker 2: saw that headline about datelight dressing, I was like, yes,
Speaker 2: because I'm in a long term relationship. We've been together
Speaker 2: for twenty years. It's a long time, right, and if
Speaker 2: we're going out on a date night, we do have
Speaker 2: date nights, and it's usually just a pop trivia which
Speaker 2: no one's dressing up for. But if we were going
Speaker 2: out for Travison Taylor type dinner, yeah, I would want
Speaker 2: Brent to dress up, and I would have quite specific
Speaker 2: thoughts about what I would like him to wear. However,
Speaker 2: if you turn that lens on me and went and
Speaker 2: this isn't true because he couldn't give a shit, But
Speaker 2: let's imagine Brent likes you in heels. I like you
Speaker 2: in heels, wear heels for me, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: I would feel icky about that, right, like I know
Speaker 2: couples who he'll say, I love it when you wear skirts,
Speaker 2: wear more skirts. Right now, that's all the same thing
Speaker 2: as me in a way, or is it? This is
Speaker 2: what I want me to tell me, as me saying
Speaker 2: to Brent, babe that shirt?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Can we can we please wear something that because I
Speaker 2: do want him to look as if he's made an effort.
Speaker 2: And very often when you see a typical couple out
Speaker 2: on a date in an ordinary kind of place, very
Speaker 2: often she'll be quite dressed up and he will not.
Speaker 3: And that's why you're allowed to tell him to put
Speaker 3: on a nice.
Speaker 2: So am I? So that's my question? Yeah, there are
Speaker 2: their gender rules about date night dressing.
Speaker 3: I think so because the women are so often setting
Speaker 3: the standard, like women aren't feminists going in a stained
Speaker 3: shirt that smells a bit funny, like women generally aren't.
Speaker 3: But on Taylor, I think por Taylor, right, I often
Speaker 3: think about I feel sorry for Taylor because she doesn't
Speaker 3: have the privilege of going out in their truckies.
Speaker 2: You could go in the back door.
Speaker 3: She's gonna be photographed. And also, as you say, Hollie,
Speaker 3: she's going to a Michelon Star restaurant, which we're not.
Speaker 3: We're going to the local pub. So I can wear
Speaker 3: my active wear to the local pub.
Speaker 1: But Taylor enjoys it. Clearly you can tell she's someone
Speaker 1: who likes playing with clothes, who likes wearing clothes.
Speaker 2: So is it okay to want your partner to dress
Speaker 2: up for date night?
Speaker 1: I think it's not about what they're wearing. I think
Speaker 1: that the desire you have for them to dress up
Speaker 1: is not about their clothes. It's about making an effort
Speaker 1: for you, as you said exactly. It's making an efforts
Speaker 1: you exactly, and it's saying I care what you think
Speaker 1: of me. That's why I have this conversation with my
Speaker 1: partner a lot about if there's something that he wears
Speaker 1: that I particularly don't like, he should not wear it
Speaker 1: because which I agree with, it'll wear the other way around.
Speaker 1: I mean, he doesn't really comment on my clothes except goodness,
Speaker 1: which is the correct.
Speaker 2: Response Jason and everyone else.
Speaker 1: Exactly. And you say, well, like, who do we dress for?
Speaker 1: And that's what this gets to the bottom of who
Speaker 1: do we dress for? When you are going on a
Speaker 1: date or a date night. Who are you actually dressing for?
Speaker 1: When you go to someone's wedding or someone's engagement or
Speaker 1: or someone's birthday party? Who were you dressing for? Are
Speaker 1: you signaling to them? I care about you, and I
Speaker 1: have tried hard with my clothes out of respect to you,
Speaker 1: because I'm acknowledging that this is special and I want
Speaker 1: to look a bit special for you.
Speaker 3: I think too that and this is a fashion word
Speaker 3: that I'm starting to try to use. It elevates how
Speaker 3: you feel. So I go. We very rarely go on
Speaker 3: date nights, but we went, you know, a little while
Speaker 3: ago for an anniversary. And it's like, I like the
Speaker 3: idea that you put on a like local will put
Speaker 3: on a fragrance or like you're kind of I don't know,
Speaker 3: shave dressing it exactly.
Speaker 2: Let it feels special. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then when I'm sitting there, it's not about whether
Speaker 3: or not he thinks I look pretty, but it's more
Speaker 3: me sitting there going I feel like this occasion is special.
Speaker 1: That I'm to take for granted, because I want to
Speaker 1: know you're not taking me for granted. The thing that's
Speaker 1: different for me, I suppose in my relationship is that
Speaker 1: I get dressed up for work, and I have this
Speaker 1: weird thing in my bad. If I'm not going to work,
Speaker 1: I'm not getting dressed up so I will never get
Speaker 1: dressed up to go, which is so weird. Like when
Speaker 1: I'm out in public, I'm not a Taylor Swift, but
Speaker 1: when I'm out in public or going to a restaurant
Speaker 1: or whatever, I will wear trackies and I will wear trainers,
Speaker 1: and I will wear no makeup or if I'm going
Speaker 1: out on the weekend or whatever, because to me, getting
Speaker 1: dressed up signals.
Speaker 2: Work, and maybe the intimacy if you were doing that
Speaker 2: on a date night is like this is me, like
Speaker 2: real me, you know what I mean, Like not real you,
Speaker 2: but like a version of you that only you get
Speaker 2: to see you.
Speaker 1: Often, when you're in a long term relationship, you will
Speaker 1: get dressed up to go to work, to go and
Speaker 1: see friends, to do whatever, and then the time that
Speaker 1: you can let it all hang out is at home.
Speaker 1: So there are many cases that your partner will only
Speaker 1: see you dressed like that, and so sometimes it's nice
Speaker 1: to remind them.
Speaker 3: They yeah, that's why, Like going to a wedding together
Speaker 3: is nice or something like that. But the other night,
Speaker 3: I was putting on earnks because I was going to
Speaker 3: see some friends, and Luca was like, how are you
Speaker 3: putting on it? I haven't seen you in earrings for months.
Speaker 3: I have a waste an earring on Luca.
Speaker 2: But also you have a toddler who would pulled the.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right. I'm like these are for me because
Speaker 3: I'm going out with some friends and I feel like
Speaker 3: I'll feel better if I have them on. But the
Speaker 3: idea of getting dressed up for each other, I think
Speaker 3: that there are also other ways to show intimacy.
Speaker 2: As you say after the break, We've got recommendations and
Speaker 2: I have something I need to share with the group
Speaker 2: out louders.
Speaker 1: If you want to listen to us every day of
Speaker 1: the week, you can get access to exclusive segments on
Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays by becoming a Mum and Me a subscriber.
Speaker 1: Follow the link in the show notes to subscribe and
Speaker 1: support us. And a big thank you to all our
Speaker 1: current subscribers.
Speaker 2: So I have something I need to share with the group.
Speaker 2: I need a bit of counseling from my girls. So
Speaker 2: I'm about to go on a big holiday, which is
Speaker 2: very exciting. I have been planning saving for this holiday
Speaker 2: for born the year. We're going on a family holiday.
Speaker 2: We're going to see my family right and then go
Speaker 2: on holiday together with them will be great.
Speaker 1: When you think about that, do you say we're going
Speaker 1: home or you don't say? Think about it like that.
Speaker 2: I do. I will say I'm going home, and then
Speaker 2: when I'm there, I'll say I'm going home. Do you
Speaker 2: know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, back to Australia.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But the thing that I need to share with
Speaker 2: the group is at the age I am. I've only
Speaker 2: just realized in the in the last few days literally
Speaker 2: of planning this holiday, that I am no longer a child.
Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is, I've obviously lived
Speaker 2: away from my parents for a very long time. I've
Speaker 2: lived more of my adult life here than I lived
Speaker 2: in Britain. I'm you know, this is my home, and
Speaker 2: so I've had years and decades of family visits either
Speaker 2: just me or me and Brent and then me and
Speaker 2: the kids, but like we haven't been over there together
Speaker 2: for six years and over all those decades. When I
Speaker 2: go home, it's something of an event, Like you get
Speaker 2: to the airport and the family will be there and
Speaker 2: they're excited to see you, and Mum will have organized
Speaker 2: that there's going to be a dinner and everybody's organized for.
Speaker 1: Like the prodigal daughter.
Speaker 3: You will get to your daughter.
Speaker 2: And it's like your favorite marm things in the fridge
Speaker 2: and whatever. Right, you're being a child in a way
Speaker 2: like when you go home, you get to be a
Speaker 2: child again, don't you. And I was realizing that this
Speaker 2: life stage that I'm in, and so many of my
Speaker 2: friends are in, and I know so many outlouders are in,
Speaker 2: you know, this time, my parents have kind of crossed
Speaker 2: a bit of a rubicon in terms of their age
Speaker 2: and what they can do. So it's much more like
Speaker 2: we'll try and get a taxi to come to the
Speaker 2: airport if we can. And I'm like, please don't, please,
Speaker 2: don't worry about that. It's okay because they don't drive
Speaker 2: anymore because my mom isn't doing all the like social
Speaker 2: organizing that you used to do. Then like my brother's
Speaker 2: a bit like, oh, I think I've got to work,
Speaker 2: but I'll come around, like And the thing is is,
Speaker 2: I'm not upset about that in terms of like, oh,
Speaker 2: why won't they make an effort? But it all just
Speaker 2: suddenly dawned on me in that way. The age sometimes
Speaker 2: does that, like an era is over, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. And now when I go back home in
Speaker 2: inverted commas, it's more about what could I do to
Speaker 2: help them, and I've got to organize everything, which is fine,
Speaker 2: but do you know what I mean, it's kind of emotion.
Speaker 2: It's really kind of hit me that something has really
Speaker 2: shifted in all of this and it will never be
Speaker 2: like that again. I will never go back to Manchester
Speaker 2: again and be my mom and Dad's house in the
Speaker 2: way that I was for thirty years. Like I will
Speaker 2: never have those airport experiences again with my little niece
Speaker 2: and nephew. I will never I don't know, it's a lot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard people describe it as you'll go there
Speaker 3: and you've been an adult for a while, but you're
Speaker 3: going to be the grown up now, like you're the
Speaker 3: grown up in that situation. That's like the level of
Speaker 3: responsibility for everyone and the caring role has shifted. And
Speaker 3: I think that as well, like you probably feel the
Speaker 3: passage of time more acutely because you have those gaps,
Speaker 3: And I think that you notice change more when you
Speaker 3: see someone every single day. You don't notice the change
Speaker 3: as obviously as when you get there and you go oh, because.
Speaker 1: It's not incremental and what you just described whole. Is
Speaker 1: it's a last that you didn't realize was a last.
Speaker 1: You think there's going to be I mean, you know
Speaker 1: logically there going to be in summers that time will
Speaker 1: match on and things will change. But it's very clear
Speaker 1: in the sand. It's not that it's a little bit different.
Speaker 1: It's like, ah, okay, so this is a different chapter. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's not even from what you're saying. It's not
Speaker 1: even a dramatic chapter like Thank heavens, no one's died.
Speaker 1: There's no terrible illness. It's more just And that's why
Speaker 1: I think you can often not notice it, particularly if
Speaker 1: you live close to your parents and you see them
Speaker 1: more often. You'll only become aware of it when there
Speaker 1: is a big drama like they fall or something will happen.
Speaker 1: But this is a really distinct line in the sand
Speaker 1: where you have to change identities and.
Speaker 2: Is it's really interesting, it's really and there's grief in that.
Speaker 2: It makes you think about you know, I've been so
Speaker 2: lucky in that for We've had, you know, a couple
Speaker 2: of decades of my parents coming to visit me and
Speaker 2: us having all these wonderful holidays together, you know, like
Speaker 2: really great We've been to Tasmania and we've been to
Speaker 2: the Barrier Reef, and we've spent lots of summers in
Speaker 2: Sydney and they's been glorious and it's done. That is
Speaker 2: really like, it's just it's just a jolt, you know.
Speaker 2: And now I'm thinking, like in practical terms, I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I've got four days at Manchester with my teenagers. What
Speaker 2: am I going to do it? Because normally I don't know,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? Like, it's just it's
Speaker 2: like this shift and it's yeah, anyway, most of.
Speaker 3: The time you don't say the last until it's in retrospect.
Speaker 3: And even if you knew it was a last, how
Speaker 3: would you savor it? Like are any of us truly
Speaker 3: able to savor anything in the moment. It's like you
Speaker 3: just look back and there's such nostalgia and grief and
Speaker 3: like a bit of sadness in that.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting because you know that pressure that mothers
Speaker 1: of young kids talk about when older women will say,
Speaker 1: savor every second it goes by so fast. Now as
Speaker 1: we're at the age when our friends are losing parents,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you are whole, But I'm also
Speaker 1: getting that spend every moment you can oh your parents,
Speaker 1: and I do.
Speaker 2: And I have to say, I know this sounds like
Speaker 2: throat clearing, but I also have to say, like, I
Speaker 2: know how lucky I am that I can still go
Speaker 2: and visit my parents right there are because we're are
Speaker 2: as you say me, we're in the era. I've got
Speaker 2: so many good friends who are literally losing their parents
Speaker 2: right now, but you're right there. Pressure that, the pressure
Speaker 2: of that, of making it count, and also it's very
Speaker 2: brings into sharp focus the loss that is around the corner.
Speaker 1: If it's there, we wish you well on your trip.
Speaker 1: We're going to miss you.
Speaker 2: Before helping me, you.
Speaker 3: Should tell you you need to tell the out louders
Speaker 3: how long you're going to be. I'm going to put
Speaker 3: in their dowry.
Speaker 2: I'm away for three weeks, but you're going to get
Speaker 2: the wonderful, wonderful filling hosts that we have here. I
Speaker 2: just like to call them that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Leicester.
Speaker 2: If anyone came to the live shows, you know, there's
Speaker 2: a little tension between them and Amelia about who gets
Speaker 2: to be the lead filling. So that'll be fun to watch.
Speaker 2: Vibes ideas, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 3: This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 1: Before you go, though, We've got one more segment, which
Speaker 1: is recommendations. We've got some things to tell you to
Speaker 1: watch and see. I'm going to go first. Did you
Speaker 1: guys watch season one of the I was Cowboy Cheerleaders
Speaker 1: America Sweetheart.
Speaker 3: I loved it.
Speaker 2: It was a huge cultural moment.
Speaker 3: Do we need to take the dance to the second?
Speaker 3: I haven't started, but I need to know if I
Speaker 3: need to watch this.
Speaker 1: You know, it depends. I mean, I really like season one.
Speaker 1: Season two is different in that there's a lot more
Speaker 1: about the auditions. Look top line, not a lot happens.
Speaker 1: I like the auditions, yeah, but the auditions and training
Speaker 1: camp is really sorry should say more. Training camp is
Speaker 1: really stretched out, and that whole thing about who gets
Speaker 1: cut from training camp stretch stretch, stretch, stretch. So that
Speaker 1: takes up about, you know, two thirds of the series.
Speaker 1: At least, it's a bit of a quieter season. There's
Speaker 1: less drama.
Speaker 2: We're a part of each other's lives forever.
Speaker 1: You know what we're going to do each other's wedding.
Speaker 1: You're like, when we make this team, we're gonna make
Speaker 1: it together because we're such good friends, but then it
Speaker 1: doesn't always end up like that. We are really excited
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of new girls. Every year. The
Speaker 1: talent just gets better and better and better. I'd say
Speaker 1: there's less laughs. I mean, you're more familiar, obviously with
Speaker 1: all the care all, particularly with the structure, and you know,
Speaker 1: the coaches and the choreographers and stuff.
Speaker 3: Some of our girls come back, do I know.
Speaker 1: Reese comes back with her now husband, but she's really
Speaker 1: minor role. And you see Victoria, remember Victoria who left.
Speaker 1: You only see her for like five minutes in the
Speaker 1: last episode, so she's gone. There's a lot of veterans,
Speaker 1: so people who were in the team last season but
Speaker 1: weren't featured players in the series. I suppose the main
Speaker 1: person there's two main people in this season. One is Shandy,
Speaker 1: who becomes a new sort of team leader and there's
Speaker 1: drama with her which I won't spoil. And the other
Speaker 1: is Jada, who's a five year vet I think Chandi
Speaker 1: is also a five year VETT. They've both been in
Speaker 1: the team for a long time, but they sort of
Speaker 1: particularly Jada steps up into this leadership role around pay
Speaker 1: and what's extraordinary.
Speaker 3: Is this is famis destroying everything exactly.
Speaker 1: Remember there was a whole big thing last time about
Speaker 1: they were getting paid not even livable wage, and they
Speaker 1: all had to work two or three other jobs, even
Speaker 1: though the Dallas Cowboys players were getting paid tens of
Speaker 1: millions of dollars, some of them in their contracts, so
Speaker 1: it was very much seen as this little sort of
Speaker 1: part time job. And even despite all of that pushback,
Speaker 1: they started this season and it's actually the twenty twenty
Speaker 1: four season without any pay increase after all of that,
Speaker 1: and they make this big show of showing on the
Speaker 1: show all of the perks that they get. But the
Speaker 1: irony is that all the perks are like sponsored, so
Speaker 1: it doesn't cost the company anything, but it's like free
Speaker 1: botox and free press on nails and free you can't
Speaker 1: pay your rent with free botimes. And it's all the
Speaker 1: stuff that they need to meet these impossibly high understandards.
Speaker 1: And there are these extraordinary scenes with them working these
Speaker 1: incredible hours. Some of the work forty hours a week.
Speaker 1: Some weeks they work and then they come home and
Speaker 1: they have to scrub their own uniforms with toothbrushes to
Speaker 1: get the fake tan and the makeup out of them,
Speaker 1: because their uniforms don't even get clean.
Speaker 2: Do you think, like, because when the first season of
Speaker 2: this dropped, even though there have been reality shows that
Speaker 2: this was the subject of few years, it was such
Speaker 2: a smash hit and we all were talking about it
Speaker 2: because we were looking into a world we didn't know.
Speaker 2: And then the second season we know the world. So
Speaker 2: it's a bit less interesting.
Speaker 1: But I'd say that's probably the case. And it's interesting
Speaker 1: because I talked about gas lighting earlier, this whole theme
Speaker 1: of getting out of your head, like some of the
Speaker 1: girls are sort of psyching themselves out and can they
Speaker 1: perform properly? But then also what's in their head is,
Speaker 1: hang on, shouldn't they be paid more? And you know,
Speaker 1: as they said, the world was telling them, you fight
Speaker 1: for more money. But then the Dallas Cowboys administration are
Speaker 1: all saying, oh, but you know, your full time job
Speaker 1: that you have to do, that's what makes you interesting,
Speaker 1: that's what people love about you. And they also say,
Speaker 1: but we had to work full time jobs. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: so there's a lot of this gas lighting that what
Speaker 1: these women are asking for, they're being made to feel
Speaker 1: really ashamed and uncomfortable and as if if you really
Speaker 1: love dancing, you should be grateful for this.
Speaker 3: Time, and there's another girl who will do it for
Speaker 3: that prime.
Speaker 2: I thought I was going to watch it as escapism,
Speaker 2: am I, we're going to watch it for us escapism
Speaker 2: or we're not really escaping much.
Speaker 1: You can watch it for escapism because the stakes are
Speaker 1: really low.
Speaker 3: Great, I just need to say some high kicks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, all of that's good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, still okay, good.
Speaker 1: So if you do want to watch, it is on
Speaker 1: Netflix now and you can binge all the episodes they've
Speaker 1: all dropped.
Speaker 3: I'm going to be cheeky and throw in a recommendation
Speaker 3: for two quick things. The first is my sister Claire,
Speaker 3: Steven's friend of the podcast. You can pre order her book,
Speaker 3: and I don't think I've mentioned that on this podcast.
Speaker 1: Novel.
Speaker 3: She has a novel coming out and it's called The
Speaker 3: Worst Thing I've Ever done is coming out in October.
Speaker 3: And I know I'm biased, So it's like I can
Speaker 3: tell you that it's really good, but it is if
Speaker 3: you read it. I have read it, and I only
Speaker 3: got to read it at the very end. I didn't
Speaker 3: get to read it as a work in progress intense,
Speaker 3: but yes, it is unlike anything I've ever read. And
Speaker 3: while it's about the intensity and the cruelty of online pylons,
Speaker 3: and Claire writes about that with an a curacy that
Speaker 3: is so unique because of how she's spoken to people
Speaker 3: who have experienced it and had tastes of it herself,
Speaker 3: it also has this profound level of depth. It's about
Speaker 3: the selves that we invent on the internet. It's about
Speaker 3: what we forgive each other for in real life as
Speaker 3: opposed to what we punish each other for online. And
Speaker 3: it's one of those books that will change you. You
Speaker 3: will have a very different perspective by the end. And
Speaker 3: I just promise you it is going to be big.
Speaker 3: And the thing about pre orders, We've talked about this before.
Speaker 3: If you pre order a book, you're sending a message
Speaker 3: to the industry, which is a bloody hard industry that
Speaker 3: you're interested in, that people want to buy this book,
Speaker 3: and it's a really important part of the process. So
Speaker 3: you can buy it on bigw or book Topier or wherever.
Speaker 3: And it is out in October. And she also has
Speaker 3: a substack, which is it's brilliant. She wrote a great
Speaker 3: piece called Vulnerable Chat about exercise. Recently, she also wrote
Speaker 3: about being in your mid thirties without botox. There are
Speaker 3: just really interesting essays that she's writing. And I know
Speaker 3: how many out louders love Clare's work, so her substantiautiful.
Speaker 3: It's called NQR or not quite right. We'll have a
Speaker 3: link in the show notes. You're going to love the
Speaker 3: book and you'll love her writing.
Speaker 2: My main recommendation is a book by Deborah Oswald. Now
Speaker 2: some of you will know who Deborah Oswald is. Me
Speaker 2: you certainly will. She wrote Offspring. She is a famous
Speaker 2: veteran Australian TV writer. She has written a book that
Speaker 2: I've been I have been meaning to read it for
Speaker 2: ages because I met her at a writerest thing I
Speaker 2: did and I was like, oh, I haven't read your book.
Speaker 2: But anyway, I did read it. You know, sometimes you
Speaker 2: kind of got to read something because you said you
Speaker 2: would read it, and then you're just like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: this is so great. Her new novel is called One
Speaker 2: hundred Years of Betty and it is a book from
Speaker 2: the perspective of a woman, an Australian woman who is
Speaker 2: about to turn a hundred and she is reflecting on
Speaker 2: her life, and it goes all the way back to
Speaker 2: when she was born in London before the Second World War,
Speaker 2: and then what happens to her. Think about like Forest Gumpen,
Speaker 2: you know how like a history told through one person's perspective.
Speaker 2: So she comes to us Tralia is a ten pound palm,
Speaker 2: you know. It goes through all these different social movements
Speaker 2: and things that have happened to her, but it is
Speaker 2: she is the most delicious character. I just wanted to
Speaker 2: all the time get back to hanging out with Betty.
Speaker 2: Like there's a feminist awakening to a point, but also
Speaker 2: just lots of really interesting relationship parts to it, motherhood
Speaker 2: written in ways that are just really refreshing. I love,
Speaker 2: love loved it. So it's a novel. It's got a
Speaker 2: great cover, and it's called One hundred Years of Betty
Speaker 2: and you will love it. And then I also just
Speaker 2: have to throw in because you've just told me that
Speaker 2: m Vernham has already recommended this. But Brent and I
Speaker 2: watched Sinners last weekend, which is a sort of blockbuster
Speaker 2: vampiary movie with a twist with Michael B. Jordan. It's
Speaker 2: made by the guy who made Black Panther and made
Speaker 2: Creed and which are not necessarily things I would watch,
Speaker 2: But then I watched this. It is the most original movie.
Speaker 2: It is so much fun, and just watch it.
Speaker 3: Where can I watch that? Because it was out at
Speaker 3: the movies and now I can watch her Home.
Speaker 2: Sinners is out. You have to still buy or rent
Speaker 2: it at this point. I think it's going to come
Speaker 2: to Max maybe but not yet. At the moment. You
Speaker 2: can buy a rent it on Apple or on Prime.
Speaker 2: And it's like, you know, people say, how can you
Speaker 2: tell a new story?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: And it's a fat umpiate movie, so like how many
Speaker 2: times can tell the MYPI movie? The way you tell
Speaker 2: a new story is by telling it from a completely
Speaker 2: different perspective, and this is told from a Black Americans perspective.
Speaker 2: It's set in the thirties. It is great. It is sexy,
Speaker 2: it is fun, it is fresh. The music's fantastic. It
Speaker 2: is violent, but it is fun. Sinners it's great.
Speaker 1: I might watch that on the small screen because I don't.
Speaker 1: I can't watch those kinds of things on the big
Speaker 1: screen if they're scary, But the small screen I can
Speaker 1: look away.
Speaker 2: It's got some good female characters and the music.
Speaker 3: Is oh, that's all.
Speaker 2: We've got time. Oh that's been a big show, a
Speaker 2: big Friday show. Thank you to all of you out
Speaker 2: loud us for being here with us today. We're going
Speaker 2: to be back in your ears next week. Well, these
Speaker 2: guys will be at least Jesse and Mia read us out.
Speaker 3: A big thank you to our team group executive producer
Speaker 3: Ruth Devine, executive producer Emiline Gazillis.
Speaker 1: Lea Porgus is our audio producer, Josh Green is our
Speaker 1: video producer. Coco and Tessa are our junior content producers,
Speaker 1: and Mom and Mia studios are styled with furniture from
Speaker 1: Fenton and Fenton. Visit Fenton and Fenton dot com dot au.
Speaker 3: Before you go, we want to tell you about Yesterdays
Speaker 3: subscriber episode. Holly and Vernon and I helped too out
Speaker 3: louders through their dilemma. One had an inheritance dilemma revolving
Speaker 3: around a piece of jewelry, and meanwhile another is pregnant
Speaker 3: with her third baby and she's having some regrets. A link,
Speaker 3: as always will be in the show notes.
Speaker 1: Bon Voyage Hole. We'll see you in a few weeks.
Speaker 3: Enjoy it.
Speaker 2: We love you, bye too bye.
Speaker 3: Shout out to any MoMA Mea subscribers listening. If you
Speaker 3: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing
Speaker 3: to MoMA Mia is the very best way to do so.
Speaker 3: There's a link in the episode description