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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia Out Loud, where women come to debrief.

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wayne, I'm mea.

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Speaker 3: Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And here's what's landed on our agenda for today, Friday,

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Speaker 2: the twenty seventh of June, Another day, another man hosting

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Speaker 2: a panel of women to debate whether feminism has failed.

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Speaker 2: And there's a new breed of feminists called a maternal

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Speaker 2: feminist that's making some women on this podcast at least

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Speaker 2: a little bristly.

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Speaker 3: Also, what can we learn from Taylor Swift's date night dressing?

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if you're watching the new season

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Speaker 1: of DCC, but it's actually packed these gas lighting the

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Speaker 1: sex money drama we are going to be unpacking.

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Speaker 2: That does a lot to talk about. First of all,

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Speaker 2: Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 3: In case he missed it, apparently I might have cortersole face.

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Speaker 1: Oh what's cartersold face?

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Speaker 3: Cortersold face is when your face is puffy, apparently, and

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Speaker 3: you may be hearing the word cortisol a lot lately,

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Speaker 3: you might be hearing it in the context of like

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Speaker 3: there's a quarterisole diet or signs of high cortisole like

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Speaker 3: apparently your eye twitching or your ears ringing or something

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Speaker 3: like that. And even apparently there's a quartisole cocktail that

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Speaker 3: doesn't follow me.

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Speaker 2: That's fine, Off, drink cordiso.

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Speaker 1: It's cortisol.

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Speaker 2: Good cortisol pad so.

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Speaker 3: Cortisol is the body's primary stress hormone, and allegedly it

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Speaker 3: can make your face puffy, hence cortisole face.

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Speaker 2: Look doctors stressed, does my face puff up? I thought

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Speaker 2: when I was stressed, I just looked more haggard even

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Speaker 2: than usual.

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Speaker 1: That's what I thought too.

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Speaker 3: I haven't noticed the puffiness, And doctors wanted on the

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Speaker 3: record that this is not a thing. You're not going

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Speaker 3: to walk into the doctor and they're going to go, Holly, Wayne, Right,

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Speaker 3: you got that quarterizole face again.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I shouldn't let someone diagnose me on social media.

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Speaker 2: No, you shouldn't.

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Speaker 1: Look.

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Speaker 3: What annoys me is the corptoring of the language. And

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Speaker 3: if you're feeling stressed, that's so fine, But just say

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Speaker 3: that you're feeling stressed, rather than to all of these symptoms, which,

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Speaker 3: by the way, could be symptoms of anything anything else.

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Speaker 2: You know what, Jesse, It's just occurred to me. You

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Speaker 2: know how people always say, and I don't know if

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Speaker 2: this is true, that people who live in really cold

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Speaker 2: climates like the Inuit, they have a thousand words for

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Speaker 2: snow because they have some kinds of stuff. Do you

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Speaker 2: think we've just invented a thousand ways of saying that

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Speaker 2: we're stressed up emotionally? It's regulated. My cortisol is high.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Do you think because we're adrenal burst?

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Speaker 3: Exactly right? I think you're spot on high.

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Speaker 2: The feminism movement didn't unite women.

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Speaker 3: It's split women.

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Speaker 2: I feel totally.

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Speaker 1: Wait listen, fifty percent of young women don't want to

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Speaker 1: have children. They're really preoccupied with making money and materialism.

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Speaker 2: But we're still looking at society that is increasingly telling

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Speaker 2: women where they could be better. But sometimes feminism expected

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Speaker 2: women to be prioritized and both sexes want the privileges

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Speaker 2: without the responsibilities.

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Speaker 1: Can I just said we are producing women and men

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Speaker 1: who are and I'll tell you what I mean by that.

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Speaker 1: It'll be an interesting discussion. Will be an interesting discussion though,

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Speaker 1: Or is it just.

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Speaker 2: Let me explain what we were just listening to. Friends.

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Speaker 2: Everyone in podcasting, there is this podcast called Diary of

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Speaker 2: a CEO. Right, It's one of the biggest podcasts in

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Speaker 2: the world. It's hosted by this young British entrepreneur and

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Speaker 2: investi called Stephen Bartlett. He's also like a judge on

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Speaker 2: the English version of Shark Tank. Like he's a big deal. Right.

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Speaker 2: He's very earnest and he's interested in everything, allegedly, and

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Speaker 2: his episodes are marked by their extraordinary length. This one

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Speaker 2: fourteen hours.

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Speaker 1: There's two and a half hours.

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Speaker 2: This one was many hours of my life.

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Speaker 1: We listened so you don't have to.

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Speaker 2: And also their extraordinary success. He says that he started

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Speaker 2: this back in twenty seventeen to get inside the heads

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Speaker 2: of other CEOs because he was obviously this very young,

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Speaker 2: successful dude. And now it gets around, he says, ten

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Speaker 2: million listens and views a month. It's big, big, big.

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Speaker 2: He is also kind of I don't know, I'll ask

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Speaker 2: you if you agree with this Jesse. He says he's

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Speaker 2: politically agnostic, so he will and does have pretty much

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Speaker 2: anyone the big voice on there, and he's not afraid

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Speaker 2: of like a bit of a culture war biff or

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Speaker 2: a bit of pseudoscience. He doesn't really have a point

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Speaker 2: of view.

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Speaker 3: No, I don't think so. And his audience, I would say,

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Speaker 3: are made up of men and women, Like I don't

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Speaker 3: think he's probably appeals to men in the same way

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Speaker 3: that like a Joe Rogan. I think he's different to

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Speaker 3: a Joe Rogan.

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Speaker 2: And he has lots of different kinds of people, and

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Speaker 2: he has celebrities on, and he has business leaders on,

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Speaker 2: and he has psychologists on, etc. Anyway, let's get to this.

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Speaker 2: This week's episode is called the Feminism Debate. Is feminism

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Speaker 2: betraying women? Question mark? The hidden risk of casual sex?

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Speaker 2: Exclamation point? And is feminism creating lonely, broken, sexless men

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Speaker 2: question mark exclamation point.

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Speaker 3: So that's feminism in capitals. That's an important I think

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Speaker 3: it might be.

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 2: And the guests are Louise Perry. We've had her on

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Speaker 2: No Filter. She is a journal and author. Deborah Francis

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Speaker 2: White and Erica Kommissar. I'll tell you a little bit

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Speaker 2: about who they are too. They were chosen for this debate,

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Speaker 2: I think for their quite specific feminist positions. Louise is

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Speaker 2: very anti sex positive culture. She's very convincing on why

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Speaker 2: she thinks that's been very bad for women. Deborah is

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Speaker 2: a pretty straightforward, like liberal second wave feminist. Really, she's

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Speaker 2: the host of the Guilty Feminist podcast and books, and

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Speaker 2: she's worried about creeping puritanical values. Right and Erica's area

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Speaker 2: of expertise, apparently, Jesse has thoughts is childhood development and attachment.

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Speaker 2: She has a very traditional view about early parenthood. So

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Speaker 2: we're basically discussing sex, mothering, and work. What could possibly

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Speaker 2: go wrong? My first question is why, because we're seeing

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Speaker 2: I feel like we're seeing quite a lot of this

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Speaker 2: around at the minute. Like Piers Morgan had a feminist

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Speaker 2: debate reach.

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Speaker 1: This is the second feminist debate I've watched against your

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Speaker 1: will because I watched, against my will of high profile

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Speaker 1: men bringing in the ladies with opposing views to argue.

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Speaker 1: And before we get into it, I was kind of

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Speaker 1: resistant to doing this as a segment because I reject

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Speaker 1: the premise of debating feminism. If you believe that feminism

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Speaker 1: is about women having equal rights to men, are we

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Speaker 1: actually debating that? I agree with the point of it.

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Speaker 1: It just feels very clickbaity rage baity.

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Speaker 2: That's why I want to prosecute why right, because I'm

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Speaker 2: seeing a lot of this around at the minute, and

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Speaker 2: it's very YouTube stock standard at the minute to get

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Speaker 2: a trad wife and get a second wave feminist and

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Speaker 2: get them to biff on about stuff like debating feminism,

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Speaker 2: which again to me, me or I feel a bit

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Speaker 2: like you do, Like I thought that was kind of

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Speaker 2: sortid is hot right now?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Like, are we going to give back the vote?

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Speaker 1: Are we debating whether we should stop wearing pants or

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Speaker 1: having access to our own bank accounts? What actually are

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Speaker 1: we debating? Fair?

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Speaker 2: And why Jesse? Why are we seeing it all over everywhere?

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Speaker 3: I actually think this is an important exercise and I

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Speaker 3: found it interesting, if not at times in raging, and

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Speaker 3: I disagreed with a lot of it. I agreed with

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Speaker 3: some of it, but a social movement like feminism, which

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Speaker 3: has evolved over time and has had multiple waves and

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Speaker 3: involved so many different demographics and is now facing very

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Speaker 3: modern problems. There was a point made early in the

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Speaker 3: podcast about how some women have felt bullied by feminism,

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Speaker 3: and they kind of talked about this maternal feminism being

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Speaker 3: a way to address a gap that's existed in a

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Speaker 3: lot of feminist theory, which is that they've not quite

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Speaker 3: known what to do with motherhood. In order to get

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Speaker 3: women into the workplace, I had to devalue motherhood to

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Speaker 3: an extent. And so what's happened as a result is

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Speaker 3: that women who find themselves making the choice to stay

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Speaker 3: at home or by necessity or whatever it is, have

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Speaker 3: gravitated towards whether it's the you know, child wife phenomenon

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Speaker 3: or conservatism, because that's the only place that like they.

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Speaker 1: Feel valued honors what they do.

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Speaker 3: And I think that that is dangerous in a problem.

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Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, I think that in some ways

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Speaker 1: feminism has really I shouldn't say feminism has done a

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Speaker 1: bad job of selling the message. But if people think

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Speaker 1: that feminism is about all women should work and not

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Speaker 1: be home, and that somehow women who's stay home with

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Speaker 1: children and lower down on the leaderboard of what it

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Speaker 1: means to be a good woman or a good feminist

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Speaker 1: than women who work outside the home, that's certainly not

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Speaker 1: how I see feminism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I reject that that's what feminism thinks.

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Speaker 3: I think that the reason why we're having debates about

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Speaker 3: feminism right now is because probably in the twenty tens.

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Speaker 3: I think there was probably a bit of overall progress, right.

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Speaker 3: We remember Beyonce with the feminist behind her, and then

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Speaker 3: there was the Me Too movement, which was like this

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Speaker 3: enormous kind of cultural conversation, and experts and like sociologists

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Speaker 3: and anthropologists will often say that what happens is that

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Speaker 3: when you make strides, there is inevitably a backlash. There

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Speaker 3: is then like an analysis of what just happened, and

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Speaker 3: I think we're probably in that moment now. I also

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Speaker 3: think that at the intersection, and Louise Perry said this,

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Speaker 3: and I thought it was very true of technology and

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Speaker 3: the economy forcing a renegotiation of like gender norms and

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Speaker 3: what the role of men are and what the role

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Speaker 3: of women are. And that feels quite urgent right now,

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Speaker 3: Like we saw with adolescents, I think it's a really

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Speaker 3: urgent conversation about young boys and about women working in childcare.

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Speaker 3: That's another conversation that's like very very urgent. And I

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Speaker 3: think that probably the.

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Speaker 1: Well, you say it's urgent, but it's as Hollywood always

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Speaker 1: reminds us, women have worked since the beginning of time.

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Speaker 1: Working class women have always worked. Women have had the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to work pretty much since the Second World War

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Speaker 1: and particularly in the last generation. I just don't understand

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Speaker 1: what we're debating.

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Speaker 3: We've seen it in government in Australia recently, and I

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Speaker 3: know that it's happening around the world too, is like

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Speaker 3: childcare subsidies, things like that, whether women want the childcare

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Speaker 3: subsidies or whether they want maternity leave. And in the US,

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Speaker 3: I think that was it was interesting, right because two

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Speaker 3: were from the UK and one was from the US,

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Speaker 3: and I thought we're arguing different things here because you

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Speaker 3: come from different contexts well.

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Speaker 2: And also I think you could argue that in the

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Speaker 2: particularly in the US, at the minute, it feels kind

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Speaker 2: of urgent women's rights are being rolled.

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Speaker 3: Back, so that quite literally, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: My feeling about this because I'm seeing everywhere and I

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Speaker 2: feel like we're being tricked, right, because all of those

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Speaker 2: things are so real, and questions about how we pay

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Speaker 2: for childcare, whether we even shoued or you know, all

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Speaker 2: of those things are really important. But it feels to

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Speaker 2: me that at the moment, feminism is the current scapegoat

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Speaker 2: for everything that's wrong with the world. Right, so men

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Speaker 2: and loneliness and depression. Definitely, feminism's fault. Higher rates of

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Speaker 2: anxiety and mental health issues going on in young people,

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Speaker 2: Feminism's fault. Definitely. There's a woman on this table, not

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Speaker 2: on this table, Stephen Bartlett's table, Erica, who thought there

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Speaker 2: was a very direct link between kids not having mothers

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Speaker 2: at home in their early years and anxiety and depression,

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Speaker 2: an increasingly pornographically addicted culture and all the associated problems

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Speaker 2: with that. Definitely feminism's fault. More single people, falling birth rates,

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Speaker 2: feminism's fault. Divorce obviously, feminism's fault. Devaluing of motherhood, feminism's fault.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, all of those things are real, but

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Speaker 2: whose fault they are is the most complicated question, so

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Speaker 2: it has nothing in this model. This Stephen Bartlett likes

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Speaker 2: saying to that, and I'm not necessarily blaming him, He's

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Speaker 2: an interesting guy, but saying, you know, do you think

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Speaker 2: it's women's fault that men are anxious and lonely or

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Speaker 2: that men don't feel they have a place anymore? Like

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Speaker 2: it's convenient that we're not asking bigger, more complicated questions

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Speaker 2: that aren't a sexy for podcast headlines, because a lot

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Speaker 2: of this has to do with the changing nature of

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Speaker 2: the economy, and the fact that a lot of traditional

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Speaker 2: jobs that men used to do don't exist anymore. A

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Speaker 2: lot of this has to do with technology, a lot

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Speaker 2: of this has to do with capitalism, a lot of

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Speaker 2: this has to do with social media, and the people

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Speaker 2: benefiting from most of those things are men, and the

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Speaker 2: most powerful people in the world are still men. So

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Speaker 2: it feels like a trick that we're all being blamed

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Speaker 2: because we're greedy, feminine.

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Speaker 3: And it's also like we're going to get the three

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Speaker 3: women on to fix it when I think that the

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Speaker 3: two biggest things that you just touched on there. One

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Speaker 3: is the declining birth rate. I think that is a

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Speaker 3: panic that is happening all over the world right now

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Speaker 3: where people are going, we are not at replacement rate,

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Speaker 3: and that is an actual issue. So we need women

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Speaker 3: to have more bab And I don't think it is

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Speaker 3: feminism's fault. I think that it's an economic story.

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Speaker 1: Well, hang on, it actually is because if women don't

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Speaker 1: have equal rights and they don't get to choose whether

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Speaker 1: they leave their husbands or have jobs, or get paid

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Speaker 1: the same amount, or use or use contraception, or have

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Speaker 1: access to abortion, they are going to stay home and

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Speaker 1: have more babies because I have no choice.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's also something having a baby is

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Speaker 3: something that women do with men, so to me, that's

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Speaker 3: a relational conversation. And the other thing that I think

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Speaker 3: is a really big one is cost of living and

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Speaker 3: the fact that you needed two income household in order

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Speaker 3: to afford a house. There was a comment that was like, look,

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Speaker 3: maybe if families would just not buy the.

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Speaker 1: Holiday house then go to Europe so much.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, and it's like, no, no, no, You've got two full

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Speaker 3: time working parents who are going how are we going

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Speaker 3: to get the childcare done? Who are then choosing care

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Speaker 3: or whatever they need to and then they're being like

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Speaker 3: double shamed for that. And I just need a moment

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Speaker 3: on Erica Commissar because as someone who exists on Instagram

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Speaker 3: and TikTok, she is stalking me, She's everywhere, she is

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Speaker 3: popping up all of the time, and she says deliberately

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Speaker 3: inflammatory things. And I almost didn't want to repeat it

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Speaker 3: on this podcast because I think that it is so

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Speaker 3: upsetting to mothers in particular, but also fathers. Sending your

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Speaker 3: child to childcare is a day orphanage, which is a

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Speaker 3: contradiction in terms that actually doesn't even make sense.

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Speaker 1: Very inflammatory.

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Speaker 3: It's so inflammatory, And what I want to say about

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Speaker 3: it is that she is looking at correlation and causation.

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Speaker 3: She's looking at ADHD and kids and mental health issues,

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Speaker 3: and she's going, well, daycare, it has to be that

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Speaker 3: you're putting them in the care of strangers and they're

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Speaker 3: all screaming and they're all upset, and she's saying that

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Speaker 3: as a psychoanalyst. She's sitting there as a psychoanalyst. But

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Speaker 3: I don't think that's where it's coming from. And I've

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Speaker 3: said on this podcast before, I'm happy for research to

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Speaker 3: be unpopular, and sometimes it is, and I think that's important.

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Speaker 3: I went deep because I went if there is a

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Speaker 3: paper that is proving that sending your child to childcare

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Speaker 3: is causing attachment issues which then results in ADHD, that's massive,

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Speaker 3: like we should absolutely be talking about that. It doesn't exist,

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Speaker 3: like it genuinely is not evidence based. And she comes

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Speaker 3: from a very Christian conservative background, which is fine.

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Speaker 1: She calls herself a maternal feminist, so she says she

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Speaker 1: believes in women having choices, but that they should forego

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Speaker 1: some of those choices when they have children. That the

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Speaker 1: needs of the child, should you surp any.

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Speaker 3: And she'll say something that is evidence based, and then

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Speaker 3: she'll say some truth in that, but then she'll throw

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Speaker 3: out a word like narcissism, as though the narcissism of mothers.

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Speaker 3: She's saying, you know, you have a baby, and then

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Speaker 3: you want to go on a holiday and leave the baby.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, who who's leaving the baby? Like, you don't

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Speaker 3: think that you can still be a primary caregiver while having,

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Speaker 3: you know, someone else, Like it's Eric, I pushed.

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Speaker 2: A lot of my buttons. Unsurprisingly, I'm trying to remain

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Speaker 2: calmt because the thing that's really interesting about this kind

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Speaker 2: of just asking questions debate, right because you know, I

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Speaker 2: said my thing before about how I think we're being

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Speaker 2: tricked a bit in a sort of culture war that's

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Speaker 2: trying to make young women in particular feel that they've

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Speaker 2: been tricked somehow by feminism and that a simpler, happier

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Speaker 2: life would be one where they had fewer choices. We

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Speaker 2: see that a lot. That's tradwife stuff. We look at

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Speaker 2: it a lot. But the reason why this kind of

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Speaker 2: debate is really interesting is I was listening to Erica

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Speaker 2: and I was thinking about my son, and I was

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Speaker 2: thinking about how I went back to work pretty early

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Speaker 2: and we did put him in childcare quite young because

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Speaker 2: of various circumstances. And then I'm going, oh, is that why?

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Speaker 2: Maybe that's why this, this and this, Maybe that's it.

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Speaker 2: And then it pushes by buttons. I'm like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: she must be right. I'm a terrible person. And then

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, it immediately starts to eternalize.

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Speaker 2: And the thing is that why this stuff is tricky

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Speaker 2: is that these three smart women who are good at arguing,

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Speaker 2: and they were all good at arguing, got through all

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Speaker 2: the sort of push button issues all the way from

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Speaker 2: should a man open a door for a woman like

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Speaker 2: who gives a shit honestly? Through to staying at home

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Speaker 2: through to pornography, all these things, and they're really engaging

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Speaker 2: interesting discussions, but it all seems to just end up

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Speaker 2: back on women's laps. Whether it's whether or not my kid,

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Speaker 2: you know, has particular issues because I went back to work,

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Speaker 2: or whether women are being violently abused in the name

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Speaker 2: of pornography and it's because women are too sexually liberated.

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Speaker 2: It all ends up back on our laps.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was interested in because it wasn't just about motherhood.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot about sex, and particularly that's Louise

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Speaker 1: Perry's area of interest. And she's written about how hook

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Speaker 1: up culture has been really great for men but not

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Speaker 1: good for women because generally women are more inclined to

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Speaker 1: want emotional connection and be very unsatisfied and devalued and

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Speaker 1: suffer from low self esteem and all of those things

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Speaker 1: through casual sex, and that she believes that women should

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Speaker 1: only have sex with someone after they're engaged, which is

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Speaker 1: interesting because that means that everyone's marrying the first person

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Speaker 1: they have sex with, right, presuming that engagement leads to marriage.

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Speaker 1: And she was also saying, as was Erica, they kept

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Speaker 1: talking about too much choice, and we do know that

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Speaker 1: if people are given too much choice, they get paralyzed,

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Speaker 1: they don't know what to do. People do prefer less choice.

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Speaker 1: But they both kept talking about there needs to be

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Speaker 1: more rules and more structure, and I kept sort of

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Speaker 1: shouting at the phone, just like, but what do you mean?

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Speaker 1: Do you mean that women shouldn't be allowed to have

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Speaker 1: sex with men unless they were engaged? Do you mean

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Speaker 1: that women shouldn't be allowed to work until their children

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Speaker 1: were three years old, Like, what are you actually saying?

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Speaker 3: The point I thought was strong on that, and I

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Speaker 3: heard it by a very liberal feminist said in a

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Speaker 3: podcast recently which she referred to something I'm gonna bungle it,

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Speaker 3: but it was something like the relief of responsibility or

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Speaker 3: the relief of duty.

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Speaker 1: So let's get the government and men to make rules

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Speaker 1: for us, because I don't.

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Speaker 3: Know much better what she was talking about. She was

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Speaker 3: talking about when you're in a position where your life

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Speaker 3: so for example, let's say you have a job, there

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Speaker 3: is actually some relief to knowing where to go every day,

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Speaker 3: to having structure in your life. And for men, it's

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Speaker 3: like there is relief in knowing what the role of

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Speaker 3: a dad is and that the role of a dad

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Speaker 3: is not to leave and go and sleep with one

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Speaker 3: hundred women on the weekend. Like humans actually really like

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Speaker 3: being responsible to other people. And that's what I think

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Speaker 3: is strong in it that you go okay in terms

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Speaker 3: of community. I see men that I young, men that

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Speaker 3: I know, and women I suppose that are in this

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Speaker 3: state of not quite knowing what their job is or

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Speaker 3: what their role is, or who they're responsible to or

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Speaker 3: how they should spend their time, and that doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: they should be forced.

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Speaker 1: So you're saying that there's something to be said for

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Speaker 1: gender roles and throwing them out. That's actually agree with that.

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Speaker 3: That's actually not so much about gender roles. I think

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Speaker 3: it's just about responsibility to other people, and I'm allergic

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Speaker 3: to sort of a hyper hyper individualized models, which I

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Speaker 3: think is again nothing true with feminism and everything to

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Speaker 3: capitalism is I think that there is something important about

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Speaker 3: being beholden and responsible to other people. I think it

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Speaker 3: makes us feel safer.

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Speaker 2: For sure. But you know, there's a lot of things

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Speaker 2: said in this conversation and many conversations like this, that

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Speaker 2: were really true and interesting and worth turning over. But

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Speaker 2: the way that it just keeps coming back to, we

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Speaker 2: need some very specific rules about it, you know, because

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Speaker 2: even when they're talking about gender roles and parenting, of

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Speaker 2: course there are differences between men and women. Of course,

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Speaker 2: there are all those things. The way that they were

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Speaker 2: talking about it completely ignored the whole idea that men

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Speaker 2: have also benefited a lot from these roles being blurred,

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Speaker 2: which they have. Yes, I see and know so many

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Speaker 2: fathers who get an enormous amount of joy and pleasure

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Speaker 2: out of being the kind of involved parent that doesn't

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Speaker 2: necessarily mean they're stay at home twenty four to seven

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Speaker 2: Paris that they didn't get, you know what I mean, Like,

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Speaker 2: when you've got the very very rigid view that women

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Speaker 2: do the caring and men do the providing and that's it.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't only put all of the onus of caring

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Speaker 2: and all of the work associated with that on women unpaid,

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Speaker 2: but it also robs men of all the joys of

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Speaker 2: it because they are literally removed from the family unit

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Speaker 2: and their only job is to bring home the meat.

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Speaker 2: And it's kind of like, don't we all kind of

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Speaker 2: instinctively know that a bit of everything is good and

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Speaker 2: that also some people are more suited to this and

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Speaker 2: some people are more suited to that, and you can

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Speaker 2: work it out in a familial way.

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Speaker 3: And that kind of fifties and I think there is

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Speaker 3: something maybe particularly in the US model of a wife

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Speaker 3: and a husband was not utopia, Like it was really

432
00:20:58,061 --> 00:20:59,742
Speaker 3: really toxic in a lot of ways.

433
00:20:59,821 --> 00:21:01,621
Speaker 1: Well that I want to touch on that for a second,

434
00:21:01,702 --> 00:21:06,262
Speaker 1: because one of Louise Perry's points about hookup culture is

435
00:21:06,302 --> 00:21:10,302
Speaker 1: so terrible and monogamy is the best state for women.

436
00:21:11,022 --> 00:21:13,101
Speaker 1: I think that there is some truth in that. I

437
00:21:13,141 --> 00:21:15,982
Speaker 1: think that she was saying that women are particularly young women,

438
00:21:15,982 --> 00:21:19,022
Speaker 1: are being sold this idea that it's really liberating to

439
00:21:19,302 --> 00:21:22,462
Speaker 1: have attachment free sex, to sleep with a different person

440
00:21:22,502 --> 00:21:26,941
Speaker 1: every night, to be on the apps, to not have relationships,

441
00:21:26,942 --> 00:21:29,621
Speaker 1: but to just have sex. And there will always be

442
00:21:29,782 --> 00:21:32,022
Speaker 1: some people that that is good for, and of course

443
00:21:32,061 --> 00:21:35,302
Speaker 1: everybody should be able to choose. But I do agree

444
00:21:35,422 --> 00:21:37,981
Speaker 1: that if we are trying to convince women to be

445
00:21:38,022 --> 00:21:41,542
Speaker 1: ashamed that they want to get married or ashamed somehow

446
00:21:41,542 --> 00:21:43,821
Speaker 1: they're letting the side down, or they're not a feminist

447
00:21:43,942 --> 00:21:46,901
Speaker 1: because they want a boyfriend, or they want to be

448
00:21:46,942 --> 00:21:50,942
Speaker 1: monogamous and casual sex isn't their thing. I do think

449
00:21:50,982 --> 00:21:53,982
Speaker 1: that it's important again, both options are really.

450
00:21:53,901 --> 00:21:56,901
Speaker 2: But as Deborah said in this is that I don't

451
00:21:56,942 --> 00:21:59,502
Speaker 2: think that is what young women are being told. You

452
00:21:59,661 --> 00:22:02,942
Speaker 2: still see overwhelmingly that the ideal that they are being

453
00:22:02,982 --> 00:22:06,782
Speaker 2: told is to get married, and overwhelmingly we're excited about

454
00:22:06,782 --> 00:22:10,302
Speaker 2: engagements and weddings and relationships. I think that all of

455
00:22:10,341 --> 00:22:12,821
Speaker 2: this is about people being allowed to make choices that

456
00:22:12,861 --> 00:22:15,022
Speaker 2: work for them, and for a very very long time,

457
00:22:15,022 --> 00:22:19,022
Speaker 2: women were shamed in all kinds of ways for being

458
00:22:19,061 --> 00:22:21,101
Speaker 2: sexual in any way, you know what I mean, and

459
00:22:21,182 --> 00:22:23,701
Speaker 2: that so it's I don't know. I just think we

460
00:22:23,782 --> 00:22:26,302
Speaker 2: shouldn't even though we just have to a point. I

461
00:22:26,302 --> 00:22:28,502
Speaker 2: don't think we should allow ourselves to be tricked into

462
00:22:28,502 --> 00:22:30,461
Speaker 2: this idea. As you started off by saying here that

463
00:22:30,502 --> 00:22:33,461
Speaker 2: feminism is up for debate and that feminism is the

464
00:22:33,502 --> 00:22:35,261
Speaker 2: cause of all the problems of the world, and just

465
00:22:35,302 --> 00:22:38,341
Speaker 2: a few more podcasts round tables about it where we

466
00:22:38,422 --> 00:22:41,302
Speaker 2: get to say things like are feminists responsible for all

467
00:22:41,302 --> 00:22:45,701
Speaker 2: the angry men? Is like really going to solve it out, louders.

468
00:22:45,742 --> 00:22:48,462
Speaker 1: I have strong feelings about this season of the Dallas

469
00:22:48,502 --> 00:22:51,262
Speaker 1: Cowboy Cheerleaders, which is brought to you by spraytnds and

470
00:22:51,302 --> 00:22:54,621
Speaker 1: gas lighting. We're going to be unpacking it after this

471
00:22:54,742 --> 00:23:00,022
Speaker 1: break out, Louders. We've got a listener dilemma, and we

472
00:23:00,061 --> 00:23:02,742
Speaker 1: need your collective wisdom to help us and our partners

473
00:23:02,782 --> 00:23:06,782
Speaker 1: YUWI to solve it. Here is the problem. I'm thirty three,

474
00:23:06,942 --> 00:23:09,181
Speaker 1: child free by choice, and I have a close friend

475
00:23:09,262 --> 00:23:12,061
Speaker 1: Sarah Sarah who has two young kids aged four and seven.

476
00:23:12,341 --> 00:23:14,461
Speaker 1: We've been mates for over a decade, but lately I'm

477
00:23:14,542 --> 00:23:16,702
Speaker 1: dreading whenever she asks to come over to my place.

478
00:23:17,061 --> 00:23:20,182
Speaker 1: When she brings her kids over, it honestly is chaos.

479
00:23:20,381 --> 00:23:23,262
Speaker 1: They touch everything, leave sticky fingerprints on my white walls,

480
00:23:23,341 --> 00:23:25,701
Speaker 1: jump on my furniture, and last time one of them

481
00:23:25,702 --> 00:23:29,702
Speaker 1: broke a ceramic VARs that had sentimental value. Sarah barely

482
00:23:29,742 --> 00:23:32,942
Speaker 1: supervises them and just says kids will be kids. I've

483
00:23:32,942 --> 00:23:35,701
Speaker 1: tried suggesting we meet at Park's kid friendly cafes or

484
00:23:35,702 --> 00:23:38,861
Speaker 1: her place, but she always has excuses her house is

485
00:23:38,901 --> 00:23:41,941
Speaker 1: too messy or she needs a change of scenery. I

486
00:23:41,942 --> 00:23:44,661
Speaker 1: think she genuinely doesn't realize how stressful it is for me.

487
00:23:45,022 --> 00:23:47,061
Speaker 1: I love Sarah and I don't want to lose our friendship,

488
00:23:47,222 --> 00:23:50,262
Speaker 1: but I'm starting to resent her visits. Am I being unreasonable?

489
00:23:50,502 --> 00:23:53,141
Speaker 1: How do I have this conversation without sounding like I

490
00:23:53,182 --> 00:23:56,141
Speaker 1: hate children? So the question is, if you've got friends

491
00:23:56,141 --> 00:23:58,381
Speaker 1: like this and she asks to come over, what do

492
00:23:58,422 --> 00:23:58,821
Speaker 1: you do next?

493
00:23:58,901 --> 00:24:02,022
Speaker 3: Jesse Stevens, the children are not coming to your home anymore.

494
00:24:02,101 --> 00:24:04,102
Speaker 3: You are not obliged to have those children in your home.

495
00:24:04,182 --> 00:24:06,661
Speaker 3: I don't think I totally get it. It's like you

496
00:24:06,702 --> 00:24:08,942
Speaker 3: are just waiting for them to push over a vase

497
00:24:09,022 --> 00:24:10,742
Speaker 3: or break the tell vision and then things get really,

498
00:24:10,742 --> 00:24:13,661
Speaker 3: really awkward. I think you've got to keep pushing the park.

499
00:24:13,901 --> 00:24:16,141
Speaker 3: Go to the places where they jump on the trampolines

500
00:24:16,141 --> 00:24:17,381
Speaker 3: and they break their arms. Go do that.

501
00:24:17,381 --> 00:24:20,382
Speaker 1: It's unpopular opinion. I don't like seeing my girlfriends with

502
00:24:20,422 --> 00:24:22,182
Speaker 1: their children. I don't have.

503
00:24:22,101 --> 00:24:23,221
Speaker 3: Someone in that stage.

504
00:24:23,302 --> 00:24:28,222
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's unavoidable, that's not true nighttime, but you haven't

505
00:24:28,222 --> 00:24:31,182
Speaker 2: always got a babysitter like it is unavoidable. But I

506
00:24:31,222 --> 00:24:33,542
Speaker 2: think that Sarah in this instance isn't being a very

507
00:24:33,581 --> 00:24:37,821
Speaker 2: good friend, because you can tell, unless you're completely unself aware,

508
00:24:37,861 --> 00:24:39,461
Speaker 2: you can tell if you take your kids to someone's

509
00:24:39,462 --> 00:24:41,501
Speaker 2: house whether they're happy for them to be there or not,

510
00:24:41,742 --> 00:24:43,461
Speaker 2: or if they are in a state of anxiety and

511
00:24:43,502 --> 00:24:45,502
Speaker 2: moving things out of the whale. Time I find was Sarah,

512
00:24:45,502 --> 00:24:46,742
Speaker 2: I wouldn't take my kids around.

513
00:24:46,742 --> 00:24:48,861
Speaker 1: So what do you say to Sarah. I've got an idea.

514
00:24:49,101 --> 00:24:51,702
Speaker 1: Don't have a big conversation about how you never want

515
00:24:51,702 --> 00:24:53,302
Speaker 1: to do it anymore. You've just got to take each

516
00:24:53,381 --> 00:24:56,302
Speaker 1: thing as it comes. And there's always a reason. I'm

517
00:24:56,341 --> 00:24:58,621
Speaker 1: so sorry the cleaners are going to be here today.

518
00:24:58,861 --> 00:25:02,622
Speaker 1: I've got a trade here. There's always a reason. And

519
00:25:03,222 --> 00:25:05,182
Speaker 1: then there just keeps being reasons.

520
00:25:04,861 --> 00:25:08,341
Speaker 3: Buy a dog that bites people and be like, I'm

521
00:25:08,381 --> 00:25:10,381
Speaker 3: so sorry my dog bite your children.

522
00:25:10,462 --> 00:25:12,701
Speaker 2: I think MEA's ideas are slightly better today.

523
00:25:12,821 --> 00:25:14,861
Speaker 1: Out loud as what would you do next? Share your

524
00:25:14,901 --> 00:25:17,461
Speaker 1: thoughts in the Mama Mea out Loud Facebook group, and

525
00:25:17,502 --> 00:25:19,862
Speaker 1: if you have a dilemma, send it to us at

526
00:25:19,901 --> 00:25:22,662
Speaker 1: out loud at mammamea dot com dot are you, We'd

527
00:25:22,702 --> 00:25:23,381
Speaker 1: love to help you.

528
00:25:24,502 --> 00:25:26,701
Speaker 3: There was a story in the Good Weekend Over the

529
00:25:26,702 --> 00:25:30,262
Speaker 3: Weekend called date Night Dressing. Taylor Swift makes an effort,

530
00:25:30,341 --> 00:25:33,861
Speaker 3: and so can we. The writer Damien will Know says,

531
00:25:34,022 --> 00:25:36,661
Speaker 3: it reminds your loved one of their initial attraction to

532
00:25:36,702 --> 00:25:39,621
Speaker 3: you and proves to you that you can still flirt

533
00:25:39,621 --> 00:25:40,142
Speaker 3: with fashion.

534
00:25:40,341 --> 00:25:41,502
Speaker 1: So getting dressed up?

535
00:25:41,702 --> 00:25:44,982
Speaker 3: Yes? Now, Maya, you know how to describe clothes better

536
00:25:44,982 --> 00:25:45,422
Speaker 3: than I do.

537
00:25:45,502 --> 00:25:45,741
Speaker 2: I do?

538
00:25:45,901 --> 00:25:50,381
Speaker 3: Can you please describe in this audio medium, yea, what

539
00:25:50,901 --> 00:25:52,421
Speaker 3: Taylor Swift looks like on date night?

540
00:25:52,861 --> 00:25:55,422
Speaker 2: Go out? They seem to do date night quite a lot.

541
00:25:55,621 --> 00:25:58,701
Speaker 1: Yeah, whenever they're outside together, they're photographed, and they do

542
00:25:58,821 --> 00:26:00,941
Speaker 1: go out to dinner a lot, either with other couples

543
00:26:01,061 --> 00:26:04,341
Speaker 1: or just together, and they are always dressed up. But

544
00:26:04,381 --> 00:26:06,781
Speaker 1: then Travis is always dressed up because he's a man

545
00:26:06,821 --> 00:26:09,901
Speaker 1: who likes fashion tailors like a.

546
00:26:09,661 --> 00:26:11,462
Speaker 3: Fun, jaunty little hat he does.

547
00:26:11,621 --> 00:26:14,581
Speaker 1: It really was interesting that this. I didn't see this

548
00:26:14,661 --> 00:26:17,181
Speaker 1: story over the weekend, but I was actually looking at

549
00:26:17,182 --> 00:26:19,221
Speaker 1: some of the pictures of Taylor and Travis because they

550
00:26:19,262 --> 00:26:23,542
Speaker 1: were out again last week, and I was thinking, to myself, God,

551
00:26:23,621 --> 00:26:27,141
Speaker 1: she makes an effort heels. She's always wearing heels. She

552
00:26:27,222 --> 00:26:30,582
Speaker 1: was wearing a flippy little skirt. She's wearing the millennial

553
00:26:30,621 --> 00:26:33,502
Speaker 1: equivalent of Holly's jeans and a nice top. So what

554
00:26:33,581 --> 00:26:36,462
Speaker 1: jeans and a nice top were for gen x, Millennial

555
00:26:36,581 --> 00:26:39,861
Speaker 1: dressing is like a flippy little skirt, a nice little

556
00:26:39,982 --> 00:26:43,262
Speaker 1: tight top, and either ankle boots or heels.

557
00:26:43,381 --> 00:26:46,542
Speaker 3: And you said she never wears trainers, and I said,

558
00:26:46,542 --> 00:26:49,781
Speaker 3: to you or trackies. She dresses like a millennial. And

559
00:26:49,821 --> 00:26:51,901
Speaker 3: I can say that because I'm a millennial. That is

560
00:26:51,901 --> 00:26:54,621
Speaker 3: how I'm millennial coded. We millennials dresser.

561
00:26:54,742 --> 00:26:59,782
Speaker 1: And he dresses like it's always very coordinated. He loves fashion,

562
00:26:59,942 --> 00:27:03,542
Speaker 1: and NFL players in America really do. It's very different

563
00:27:03,742 --> 00:27:06,302
Speaker 1: like footy players in Australia who do just turn up

564
00:27:06,302 --> 00:27:08,661
Speaker 1: in the team track seat or their Stubbicks or whatever.

565
00:27:08,742 --> 00:27:11,102
Speaker 1: But in a Merica, it's like a lot of them

566
00:27:11,262 --> 00:27:14,022
Speaker 1: are fashion plates. They have contracts, they're sponsored by big

567
00:27:14,061 --> 00:27:17,861
Speaker 1: fashion housards, so they'll wear like a full Louis Vouton outfit,

568
00:27:18,462 --> 00:27:21,502
Speaker 1: and he likes matching things.

569
00:27:21,901 --> 00:27:25,302
Speaker 2: I have thoughts about date night dressing because when I

570
00:27:25,302 --> 00:27:27,581
Speaker 2: saw that headline about datelight dressing, I was like, yes,

571
00:27:27,742 --> 00:27:30,942
Speaker 2: because I'm in a long term relationship. We've been together

572
00:27:30,982 --> 00:27:34,622
Speaker 2: for twenty years. It's a long time, right, and if

573
00:27:34,661 --> 00:27:36,581
Speaker 2: we're going out on a date night, we do have

574
00:27:36,661 --> 00:27:38,542
Speaker 2: date nights, and it's usually just a pop trivia which

575
00:27:38,581 --> 00:27:40,182
Speaker 2: no one's dressing up for. But if we were going

576
00:27:40,222 --> 00:27:44,222
Speaker 2: out for Travison Taylor type dinner, yeah, I would want

577
00:27:44,262 --> 00:27:47,101
Speaker 2: Brent to dress up, and I would have quite specific

578
00:27:47,222 --> 00:27:50,262
Speaker 2: thoughts about what I would like him to wear. However,

579
00:27:50,341 --> 00:27:53,621
Speaker 2: if you turn that lens on me and went and

580
00:27:53,661 --> 00:27:55,661
Speaker 2: this isn't true because he couldn't give a shit, But

581
00:27:55,742 --> 00:27:59,022
Speaker 2: let's imagine Brent likes you in heels. I like you

582
00:27:59,061 --> 00:28:01,182
Speaker 2: in heels, wear heels for me, you know what I mean?

583
00:28:02,302 --> 00:28:06,221
Speaker 2: I would feel icky about that, right, like I know

584
00:28:06,302 --> 00:28:08,782
Speaker 2: couples who he'll say, I love it when you wear skirts,

585
00:28:08,821 --> 00:28:12,341
Speaker 2: wear more skirts. Right now, that's all the same thing

586
00:28:12,542 --> 00:28:14,341
Speaker 2: as me in a way, or is it? This is

587
00:28:14,381 --> 00:28:16,542
Speaker 2: what I want me to tell me, as me saying

588
00:28:16,581 --> 00:28:18,741
Speaker 2: to Brent, babe that shirt?

589
00:28:19,462 --> 00:28:19,502
Speaker 1: No?

590
00:28:20,341 --> 00:28:24,101
Speaker 2: Can we can we please wear something that because I

591
00:28:24,661 --> 00:28:27,421
Speaker 2: do want him to look as if he's made an effort.

592
00:28:27,661 --> 00:28:29,902
Speaker 2: And very often when you see a typical couple out

593
00:28:29,901 --> 00:28:32,502
Speaker 2: on a date in an ordinary kind of place, very

594
00:28:32,502 --> 00:28:34,542
Speaker 2: often she'll be quite dressed up and he will not.

595
00:28:34,861 --> 00:28:37,502
Speaker 3: And that's why you're allowed to tell him to put

596
00:28:37,502 --> 00:28:38,022
Speaker 3: on a nice.

597
00:28:37,901 --> 00:28:39,661
Speaker 2: So am I? So that's my question? Yeah, there are

598
00:28:39,661 --> 00:28:41,701
Speaker 2: their gender rules about date night dressing.

599
00:28:41,902 --> 00:28:45,022
Speaker 3: I think so because the women are so often setting

600
00:28:45,062 --> 00:28:49,142
Speaker 3: the standard, like women aren't feminists going in a stained

601
00:28:49,142 --> 00:28:51,702
Speaker 3: shirt that smells a bit funny, like women generally aren't.

602
00:28:52,222 --> 00:28:55,382
Speaker 3: But on Taylor, I think por Taylor, right, I often

603
00:28:55,382 --> 00:28:57,902
Speaker 3: think about I feel sorry for Taylor because she doesn't

604
00:28:57,902 --> 00:28:59,982
Speaker 3: have the privilege of going out in their truckies.

605
00:29:00,102 --> 00:29:01,461
Speaker 2: You could go in the back door.

606
00:29:01,422 --> 00:29:04,262
Speaker 3: She's gonna be photographed. And also, as you say, Hollie,

607
00:29:04,342 --> 00:29:06,502
Speaker 3: she's going to a Michelon Star restaurant, which we're not.

608
00:29:06,542 --> 00:29:08,262
Speaker 3: We're going to the local pub. So I can wear

609
00:29:08,302 --> 00:29:09,501
Speaker 3: my active wear to the local pub.

610
00:29:09,622 --> 00:29:12,302
Speaker 1: But Taylor enjoys it. Clearly you can tell she's someone

611
00:29:12,342 --> 00:29:15,782
Speaker 1: who likes playing with clothes, who likes wearing clothes.

612
00:29:15,982 --> 00:29:18,062
Speaker 2: So is it okay to want your partner to dress

613
00:29:18,102 --> 00:29:18,742
Speaker 2: up for date night?

614
00:29:19,102 --> 00:29:20,982
Speaker 1: I think it's not about what they're wearing. I think

615
00:29:21,022 --> 00:29:23,062
Speaker 1: that the desire you have for them to dress up

616
00:29:23,142 --> 00:29:26,742
Speaker 1: is not about their clothes. It's about making an effort

617
00:29:26,862 --> 00:29:29,462
Speaker 1: for you, as you said exactly. It's making an efforts

618
00:29:29,502 --> 00:29:33,822
Speaker 1: you exactly, and it's saying I care what you think

619
00:29:33,862 --> 00:29:36,461
Speaker 1: of me. That's why I have this conversation with my

620
00:29:36,542 --> 00:29:39,342
Speaker 1: partner a lot about if there's something that he wears

621
00:29:39,342 --> 00:29:42,782
Speaker 1: that I particularly don't like, he should not wear it

622
00:29:42,862 --> 00:29:47,181
Speaker 1: because which I agree with, it'll wear the other way around.

623
00:29:47,302 --> 00:29:50,742
Speaker 1: I mean, he doesn't really comment on my clothes except goodness,

624
00:29:52,422 --> 00:29:53,582
Speaker 1: which is the correct.

625
00:29:53,302 --> 00:29:55,342
Speaker 2: Response Jason and everyone else.

626
00:29:56,902 --> 00:29:59,302
Speaker 1: Exactly. And you say, well, like, who do we dress for?

627
00:29:59,382 --> 00:30:01,342
Speaker 1: And that's what this gets to the bottom of who

628
00:30:01,422 --> 00:30:02,902
Speaker 1: do we dress for? When you are going on a

629
00:30:02,982 --> 00:30:06,862
Speaker 1: date or a date night. Who are you actually dressing for?

630
00:30:06,902 --> 00:30:09,542
Speaker 1: When you go to someone's wedding or someone's engagement or

631
00:30:09,582 --> 00:30:11,902
Speaker 1: or someone's birthday party? Who were you dressing for? Are

632
00:30:11,902 --> 00:30:15,142
Speaker 1: you signaling to them? I care about you, and I

633
00:30:15,222 --> 00:30:18,902
Speaker 1: have tried hard with my clothes out of respect to you,

634
00:30:18,982 --> 00:30:22,342
Speaker 1: because I'm acknowledging that this is special and I want

635
00:30:22,382 --> 00:30:23,421
Speaker 1: to look a bit special for you.

636
00:30:23,622 --> 00:30:27,062
Speaker 3: I think too that and this is a fashion word

637
00:30:27,262 --> 00:30:30,062
Speaker 3: that I'm starting to try to use. It elevates how

638
00:30:30,142 --> 00:30:33,022
Speaker 3: you feel. So I go. We very rarely go on

639
00:30:33,182 --> 00:30:34,942
Speaker 3: date nights, but we went, you know, a little while

640
00:30:34,982 --> 00:30:37,502
Speaker 3: ago for an anniversary. And it's like, I like the

641
00:30:37,542 --> 00:30:39,702
Speaker 3: idea that you put on a like local will put

642
00:30:39,702 --> 00:30:42,822
Speaker 3: on a fragrance or like you're kind of I don't know,

643
00:30:43,062 --> 00:30:44,342
Speaker 3: shave dressing it exactly.

644
00:30:44,582 --> 00:30:46,422
Speaker 2: Let it feels special. Yeah.

645
00:30:46,462 --> 00:30:49,102
Speaker 3: And then when I'm sitting there, it's not about whether

646
00:30:49,222 --> 00:30:52,542
Speaker 3: or not he thinks I look pretty, but it's more

647
00:30:52,622 --> 00:30:56,542
Speaker 3: me sitting there going I feel like this occasion is special.

648
00:30:56,502 --> 00:30:58,862
Speaker 1: That I'm to take for granted, because I want to

649
00:30:58,902 --> 00:31:01,982
Speaker 1: know you're not taking me for granted. The thing that's

650
00:31:02,102 --> 00:31:05,742
Speaker 1: different for me, I suppose in my relationship is that

651
00:31:06,102 --> 00:31:08,741
Speaker 1: I get dressed up for work, and I have this

652
00:31:08,822 --> 00:31:11,221
Speaker 1: weird thing in my bad. If I'm not going to work,

653
00:31:12,142 --> 00:31:16,142
Speaker 1: I'm not getting dressed up so I will never get

654
00:31:16,222 --> 00:31:19,062
Speaker 1: dressed up to go, which is so weird. Like when

655
00:31:19,062 --> 00:31:21,822
Speaker 1: I'm out in public, I'm not a Taylor Swift, but

656
00:31:22,062 --> 00:31:24,022
Speaker 1: when I'm out in public or going to a restaurant

657
00:31:24,062 --> 00:31:27,501
Speaker 1: or whatever, I will wear trackies and I will wear trainers,

658
00:31:27,582 --> 00:31:30,262
Speaker 1: and I will wear no makeup or if I'm going

659
00:31:30,302 --> 00:31:32,822
Speaker 1: out on the weekend or whatever, because to me, getting

660
00:31:32,862 --> 00:31:34,262
Speaker 1: dressed up signals.

661
00:31:33,862 --> 00:31:36,701
Speaker 2: Work, and maybe the intimacy if you were doing that

662
00:31:36,742 --> 00:31:38,741
Speaker 2: on a date night is like this is me, like

663
00:31:38,902 --> 00:31:41,421
Speaker 2: real me, you know what I mean, Like not real you,

664
00:31:41,502 --> 00:31:43,982
Speaker 2: but like a version of you that only you get

665
00:31:43,982 --> 00:31:44,421
Speaker 2: to see you.

666
00:31:45,102 --> 00:31:47,222
Speaker 1: Often, when you're in a long term relationship, you will

667
00:31:47,222 --> 00:31:49,302
Speaker 1: get dressed up to go to work, to go and

668
00:31:49,302 --> 00:31:52,142
Speaker 1: see friends, to do whatever, and then the time that

669
00:31:52,182 --> 00:31:53,862
Speaker 1: you can let it all hang out is at home.

670
00:31:53,902 --> 00:31:56,502
Speaker 1: So there are many cases that your partner will only

671
00:31:56,542 --> 00:31:59,862
Speaker 1: see you dressed like that, and so sometimes it's nice

672
00:31:59,862 --> 00:32:00,902
Speaker 1: to remind them.

673
00:32:01,022 --> 00:32:03,501
Speaker 3: They yeah, that's why, Like going to a wedding together

674
00:32:03,622 --> 00:32:05,142
Speaker 3: is nice or something like that. But the other night,

675
00:32:05,222 --> 00:32:07,062
Speaker 3: I was putting on earnks because I was going to

676
00:32:07,222 --> 00:32:09,742
Speaker 3: see some friends, and Luca was like, how are you

677
00:32:09,782 --> 00:32:12,941
Speaker 3: putting on it? I haven't seen you in earrings for months.

678
00:32:13,742 --> 00:32:15,342
Speaker 3: I have a waste an earring on Luca.

679
00:32:15,422 --> 00:32:17,221
Speaker 2: But also you have a toddler who would pulled the.

680
00:32:17,382 --> 00:32:20,062
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right. I'm like these are for me because

681
00:32:20,062 --> 00:32:22,181
Speaker 3: I'm going out with some friends and I feel like

682
00:32:22,262 --> 00:32:24,142
Speaker 3: I'll feel better if I have them on. But the

683
00:32:24,142 --> 00:32:26,221
Speaker 3: idea of getting dressed up for each other, I think

684
00:32:26,222 --> 00:32:28,262
Speaker 3: that there are also other ways to show intimacy.

685
00:32:28,262 --> 00:32:31,902
Speaker 2: As you say after the break, We've got recommendations and

686
00:32:32,062 --> 00:32:33,622
Speaker 2: I have something I need to share with the group

687
00:32:34,182 --> 00:32:34,741
Speaker 2: out louders.

688
00:32:34,782 --> 00:32:36,542
Speaker 1: If you want to listen to us every day of

689
00:32:36,542 --> 00:32:39,342
Speaker 1: the week, you can get access to exclusive segments on

690
00:32:39,422 --> 00:32:43,062
Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays by becoming a Mum and Me a subscriber.

691
00:32:43,422 --> 00:32:45,582
Speaker 1: Follow the link in the show notes to subscribe and

692
00:32:45,622 --> 00:32:47,981
Speaker 1: support us. And a big thank you to all our

693
00:32:48,022 --> 00:32:49,062
Speaker 1: current subscribers.

694
00:32:52,862 --> 00:32:54,462
Speaker 2: So I have something I need to share with the group.

695
00:32:54,502 --> 00:32:56,981
Speaker 2: I need a bit of counseling from my girls. So

696
00:32:57,502 --> 00:33:00,062
Speaker 2: I'm about to go on a big holiday, which is

697
00:33:00,142 --> 00:33:03,021
Speaker 2: very exciting. I have been planning saving for this holiday

698
00:33:03,062 --> 00:33:05,102
Speaker 2: for born the year. We're going on a family holiday.

699
00:33:05,502 --> 00:33:08,062
Speaker 2: We're going to see my family right and then go

700
00:33:08,102 --> 00:33:10,062
Speaker 2: on holiday together with them will be great.

701
00:33:10,182 --> 00:33:12,342
Speaker 1: When you think about that, do you say we're going

702
00:33:12,422 --> 00:33:14,461
Speaker 1: home or you don't say? Think about it like that.

703
00:33:14,542 --> 00:33:17,342
Speaker 2: I do. I will say I'm going home, and then

704
00:33:17,342 --> 00:33:19,022
Speaker 2: when I'm there, I'll say I'm going home. Do you

705
00:33:19,142 --> 00:33:19,542
Speaker 2: know what I mean?

706
00:33:19,661 --> 00:33:20,982
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, back to Australia.

707
00:33:21,062 --> 00:33:23,302
Speaker 2: Yeah. But the thing that I need to share with

708
00:33:23,342 --> 00:33:25,582
Speaker 2: the group is at the age I am. I've only

709
00:33:25,661 --> 00:33:27,902
Speaker 2: just realized in the in the last few days literally

710
00:33:27,982 --> 00:33:30,382
Speaker 2: of planning this holiday, that I am no longer a child.

711
00:33:31,102 --> 00:33:33,342
Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is, I've obviously lived

712
00:33:33,342 --> 00:33:35,222
Speaker 2: away from my parents for a very long time. I've

713
00:33:35,262 --> 00:33:37,062
Speaker 2: lived more of my adult life here than I lived

714
00:33:37,102 --> 00:33:40,021
Speaker 2: in Britain. I'm you know, this is my home, and

715
00:33:40,062 --> 00:33:43,142
Speaker 2: so I've had years and decades of family visits either

716
00:33:43,302 --> 00:33:45,502
Speaker 2: just me or me and Brent and then me and

717
00:33:45,542 --> 00:33:47,502
Speaker 2: the kids, but like we haven't been over there together

718
00:33:47,542 --> 00:33:50,741
Speaker 2: for six years and over all those decades. When I

719
00:33:50,782 --> 00:33:54,582
Speaker 2: go home, it's something of an event, Like you get

720
00:33:54,622 --> 00:33:56,542
Speaker 2: to the airport and the family will be there and

721
00:33:56,582 --> 00:33:59,222
Speaker 2: they're excited to see you, and Mum will have organized

722
00:33:59,262 --> 00:34:02,142
Speaker 2: that there's going to be a dinner and everybody's organized for.

723
00:34:02,262 --> 00:34:03,102
Speaker 1: Like the prodigal daughter.

724
00:34:03,382 --> 00:34:05,302
Speaker 3: You will get to your daughter.

725
00:34:05,142 --> 00:34:08,102
Speaker 2: And it's like your favorite marm things in the fridge

726
00:34:08,142 --> 00:34:10,661
Speaker 2: and whatever. Right, you're being a child in a way

727
00:34:10,742 --> 00:34:12,342
Speaker 2: like when you go home, you get to be a

728
00:34:12,382 --> 00:34:15,942
Speaker 2: child again, don't you. And I was realizing that this

729
00:34:16,062 --> 00:34:18,181
Speaker 2: life stage that I'm in, and so many of my

730
00:34:18,181 --> 00:34:20,022
Speaker 2: friends are in, and I know so many outlouders are in,

731
00:34:21,022 --> 00:34:24,022
Speaker 2: you know, this time, my parents have kind of crossed

732
00:34:24,022 --> 00:34:25,901
Speaker 2: a bit of a rubicon in terms of their age

733
00:34:25,902 --> 00:34:28,542
Speaker 2: and what they can do. So it's much more like

734
00:34:29,022 --> 00:34:31,062
Speaker 2: we'll try and get a taxi to come to the

735
00:34:31,102 --> 00:34:33,462
Speaker 2: airport if we can. And I'm like, please don't, please,

736
00:34:33,502 --> 00:34:35,741
Speaker 2: don't worry about that. It's okay because they don't drive

737
00:34:35,741 --> 00:34:39,422
Speaker 2: anymore because my mom isn't doing all the like social

738
00:34:39,542 --> 00:34:41,862
Speaker 2: organizing that you used to do. Then like my brother's

739
00:34:41,862 --> 00:34:43,342
Speaker 2: a bit like, oh, I think I've got to work,

740
00:34:43,382 --> 00:34:45,622
Speaker 2: but I'll come around, like And the thing is is,

741
00:34:45,661 --> 00:34:48,022
Speaker 2: I'm not upset about that in terms of like, oh,

742
00:34:48,022 --> 00:34:49,701
Speaker 2: why won't they make an effort? But it all just

743
00:34:49,701 --> 00:34:53,302
Speaker 2: suddenly dawned on me in that way. The age sometimes

744
00:34:53,302 --> 00:34:55,821
Speaker 2: does that, like an era is over, you know what

745
00:34:55,902 --> 00:34:59,582
Speaker 2: I mean. And now when I go back home in

746
00:34:59,582 --> 00:35:03,221
Speaker 2: inverted commas, it's more about what could I do to

747
00:35:03,342 --> 00:35:07,742
Speaker 2: help them, and I've got to organize everything, which is fine,

748
00:35:07,781 --> 00:35:09,262
Speaker 2: but do you know what I mean, it's kind of emotion.

749
00:35:10,462 --> 00:35:13,302
Speaker 2: It's really kind of hit me that something has really

750
00:35:13,382 --> 00:35:15,902
Speaker 2: shifted in all of this and it will never be

751
00:35:15,982 --> 00:35:18,181
Speaker 2: like that again. I will never go back to Manchester

752
00:35:18,221 --> 00:35:20,422
Speaker 2: again and be my mom and Dad's house in the

753
00:35:20,462 --> 00:35:23,261
Speaker 2: way that I was for thirty years. Like I will

754
00:35:23,302 --> 00:35:25,661
Speaker 2: never have those airport experiences again with my little niece

755
00:35:25,701 --> 00:35:28,182
Speaker 2: and nephew. I will never I don't know, it's a lot.

756
00:35:28,382 --> 00:35:31,701
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard people describe it as you'll go there

757
00:35:32,302 --> 00:35:34,781
Speaker 3: and you've been an adult for a while, but you're

758
00:35:34,822 --> 00:35:37,062
Speaker 3: going to be the grown up now, like you're the

759
00:35:37,221 --> 00:35:40,701
Speaker 3: grown up in that situation. That's like the level of

760
00:35:41,302 --> 00:35:45,622
Speaker 3: responsibility for everyone and the caring role has shifted. And

761
00:35:45,661 --> 00:35:47,661
Speaker 3: I think that as well, like you probably feel the

762
00:35:47,701 --> 00:35:50,982
Speaker 3: passage of time more acutely because you have those gaps,

763
00:35:51,022 --> 00:35:53,102
Speaker 3: And I think that you notice change more when you

764
00:35:53,142 --> 00:35:55,982
Speaker 3: see someone every single day. You don't notice the change

765
00:35:55,982 --> 00:35:59,062
Speaker 3: as obviously as when you get there and you go oh, because.

766
00:35:58,822 --> 00:36:02,261
Speaker 1: It's not incremental and what you just described whole. Is

767
00:36:03,781 --> 00:36:06,342
Speaker 1: it's a last that you didn't realize was a last.

768
00:36:06,622 --> 00:36:08,661
Speaker 1: You think there's going to be I mean, you know

769
00:36:08,862 --> 00:36:11,622
Speaker 1: logically there going to be in summers that time will

770
00:36:11,661 --> 00:36:14,542
Speaker 1: match on and things will change. But it's very clear

771
00:36:14,582 --> 00:36:16,942
Speaker 1: in the sand. It's not that it's a little bit different.

772
00:36:17,022 --> 00:36:22,262
Speaker 1: It's like, ah, okay, so this is a different chapter. Yeah,

773
00:36:22,302 --> 00:36:25,462
Speaker 1: And it's not even from what you're saying. It's not

774
00:36:25,502 --> 00:36:29,142
Speaker 1: even a dramatic chapter like Thank heavens, no one's died.

775
00:36:29,181 --> 00:36:33,022
Speaker 1: There's no terrible illness. It's more just And that's why

776
00:36:33,062 --> 00:36:35,861
Speaker 1: I think you can often not notice it, particularly if

777
00:36:35,902 --> 00:36:38,622
Speaker 1: you live close to your parents and you see them

778
00:36:38,661 --> 00:36:41,261
Speaker 1: more often. You'll only become aware of it when there

779
00:36:41,302 --> 00:36:43,582
Speaker 1: is a big drama like they fall or something will happen.

780
00:36:44,142 --> 00:36:47,102
Speaker 1: But this is a really distinct line in the sand

781
00:36:47,261 --> 00:36:49,382
Speaker 1: where you have to change identities and.

782
00:36:49,542 --> 00:36:52,261
Speaker 2: Is it's really interesting, it's really and there's grief in that.

783
00:36:52,261 --> 00:36:54,341
Speaker 2: It makes you think about you know, I've been so

784
00:36:54,582 --> 00:36:57,181
Speaker 2: lucky in that for We've had, you know, a couple

785
00:36:57,261 --> 00:36:59,221
Speaker 2: of decades of my parents coming to visit me and

786
00:36:59,302 --> 00:37:02,661
Speaker 2: us having all these wonderful holidays together, you know, like

787
00:37:02,822 --> 00:37:04,622
Speaker 2: really great We've been to Tasmania and we've been to

788
00:37:04,661 --> 00:37:06,301
Speaker 2: the Barrier Reef, and we've spent lots of summers in

789
00:37:06,342 --> 00:37:10,142
Speaker 2: Sydney and they's been glorious and it's done. That is

790
00:37:10,261 --> 00:37:14,781
Speaker 2: really like, it's just it's just a jolt, you know.

791
00:37:14,862 --> 00:37:17,981
Speaker 2: And now I'm thinking, like in practical terms, I'm like, Okay,

792
00:37:17,982 --> 00:37:20,982
Speaker 2: I've got four days at Manchester with my teenagers. What

793
00:37:21,062 --> 00:37:22,622
Speaker 2: am I going to do it? Because normally I don't know,

794
00:37:22,781 --> 00:37:24,622
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? Like, it's just it's

795
00:37:24,661 --> 00:37:26,982
Speaker 2: like this shift and it's yeah, anyway, most of.

796
00:37:26,942 --> 00:37:29,781
Speaker 3: The time you don't say the last until it's in retrospect.

797
00:37:29,942 --> 00:37:31,381
Speaker 3: And even if you knew it was a last, how

798
00:37:31,422 --> 00:37:33,382
Speaker 3: would you savor it? Like are any of us truly

799
00:37:33,422 --> 00:37:35,301
Speaker 3: able to savor anything in the moment. It's like you

800
00:37:35,661 --> 00:37:39,542
Speaker 3: just look back and there's such nostalgia and grief and

801
00:37:39,622 --> 00:37:40,781
Speaker 3: like a bit of sadness in that.

802
00:37:41,022 --> 00:37:44,302
Speaker 1: It's really interesting because you know that pressure that mothers

803
00:37:44,302 --> 00:37:47,421
Speaker 1: of young kids talk about when older women will say,

804
00:37:47,542 --> 00:37:52,142
Speaker 1: savor every second it goes by so fast. Now as

805
00:37:52,462 --> 00:37:55,862
Speaker 1: we're at the age when our friends are losing parents,

806
00:37:56,902 --> 00:37:58,381
Speaker 1: I don't know if you are whole, But I'm also

807
00:37:58,382 --> 00:38:01,262
Speaker 1: getting that spend every moment you can oh your parents,

808
00:38:01,382 --> 00:38:01,861
Speaker 1: and I do.

809
00:38:01,942 --> 00:38:03,502
Speaker 2: And I have to say, I know this sounds like

810
00:38:03,542 --> 00:38:05,261
Speaker 2: throat clearing, but I also have to say, like, I

811
00:38:05,342 --> 00:38:07,181
Speaker 2: know how lucky I am that I can still go

812
00:38:07,221 --> 00:38:09,781
Speaker 2: and visit my parents right there are because we're are

813
00:38:09,862 --> 00:38:11,901
Speaker 2: as you say me, we're in the era. I've got

814
00:38:12,142 --> 00:38:14,622
Speaker 2: so many good friends who are literally losing their parents

815
00:38:14,701 --> 00:38:17,942
Speaker 2: right now, but you're right there. Pressure that, the pressure

816
00:38:17,982 --> 00:38:20,701
Speaker 2: of that, of making it count, and also it's very

817
00:38:20,781 --> 00:38:23,862
Speaker 2: brings into sharp focus the loss that is around the corner.

818
00:38:23,902 --> 00:38:27,301
Speaker 1: If it's there, we wish you well on your trip.

819
00:38:27,302 --> 00:38:28,221
Speaker 1: We're going to miss you.

820
00:38:28,781 --> 00:38:29,741
Speaker 2: Before helping me, you.

821
00:38:29,701 --> 00:38:31,502
Speaker 3: Should tell you you need to tell the out louders

822
00:38:31,502 --> 00:38:33,261
Speaker 3: how long you're going to be. I'm going to put

823
00:38:33,302 --> 00:38:33,822
Speaker 3: in their dowry.

824
00:38:33,942 --> 00:38:36,022
Speaker 2: I'm away for three weeks, but you're going to get

825
00:38:36,022 --> 00:38:39,502
Speaker 2: the wonderful, wonderful filling hosts that we have here. I

826
00:38:39,622 --> 00:38:40,381
Speaker 2: just like to call them that.

827
00:38:40,582 --> 00:38:43,301
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Leicester.

828
00:38:43,542 --> 00:38:45,582
Speaker 2: If anyone came to the live shows, you know, there's

829
00:38:45,582 --> 00:38:48,021
Speaker 2: a little tension between them and Amelia about who gets

830
00:38:48,022 --> 00:38:50,822
Speaker 2: to be the lead filling. So that'll be fun to watch.

831
00:38:52,462 --> 00:38:56,341
Speaker 2: Vibes ideas, something casual, something fun.

832
00:38:56,902 --> 00:38:58,421
Speaker 3: This is my best recommendation.

833
00:38:59,342 --> 00:39:01,821
Speaker 1: Before you go, though, We've got one more segment, which

834
00:39:01,902 --> 00:39:04,902
Speaker 1: is recommendations. We've got some things to tell you to

835
00:39:04,982 --> 00:39:07,741
Speaker 1: watch and see. I'm going to go first. Did you

836
00:39:07,781 --> 00:39:10,582
Speaker 1: guys watch season one of the I was Cowboy Cheerleaders

837
00:39:10,622 --> 00:39:11,462
Speaker 1: America Sweetheart.

838
00:39:11,741 --> 00:39:12,861
Speaker 3: I loved it.

839
00:39:12,862 --> 00:39:15,262
Speaker 2: It was a huge cultural moment.

840
00:39:15,582 --> 00:39:17,502
Speaker 3: Do we need to take the dance to the second?

841
00:39:17,502 --> 00:39:18,902
Speaker 3: I haven't started, but I need to know if I

842
00:39:18,942 --> 00:39:19,382
Speaker 3: need to watch this.

843
00:39:19,661 --> 00:39:23,062
Speaker 1: You know, it depends. I mean, I really like season one.

844
00:39:23,701 --> 00:39:27,542
Speaker 1: Season two is different in that there's a lot more

845
00:39:27,542 --> 00:39:30,622
Speaker 1: about the auditions. Look top line, not a lot happens.

846
00:39:30,661 --> 00:39:33,342
Speaker 1: I like the auditions, yeah, but the auditions and training

847
00:39:33,422 --> 00:39:36,102
Speaker 1: camp is really sorry should say more. Training camp is

848
00:39:36,142 --> 00:39:38,661
Speaker 1: really stretched out, and that whole thing about who gets

849
00:39:38,701 --> 00:39:42,261
Speaker 1: cut from training camp stretch stretch, stretch, stretch. So that

850
00:39:42,382 --> 00:39:45,022
Speaker 1: takes up about, you know, two thirds of the series.

851
00:39:45,062 --> 00:39:48,221
Speaker 1: At least, it's a bit of a quieter season. There's

852
00:39:48,342 --> 00:39:50,022
Speaker 1: less drama.

853
00:39:50,622 --> 00:39:52,902
Speaker 2: We're a part of each other's lives forever.

854
00:39:53,022 --> 00:39:55,502
Speaker 1: You know what we're going to do each other's wedding.

855
00:39:57,502 --> 00:39:59,861
Speaker 1: You're like, when we make this team, we're gonna make

856
00:39:59,862 --> 00:40:03,102
Speaker 1: it together because we're such good friends, but then it

857
00:40:03,102 --> 00:40:09,502
Speaker 1: doesn't always end up like that. We are really excited

858
00:40:09,661 --> 00:40:13,341
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of new girls. Every year. The

859
00:40:13,382 --> 00:40:17,701
Speaker 1: talent just gets better and better and better. I'd say

860
00:40:17,701 --> 00:40:20,542
Speaker 1: there's less laughs. I mean, you're more familiar, obviously with

861
00:40:20,622 --> 00:40:23,861
Speaker 1: all the care all, particularly with the structure, and you know,

862
00:40:23,902 --> 00:40:25,782
Speaker 1: the coaches and the choreographers and stuff.

863
00:40:26,822 --> 00:40:28,381
Speaker 3: Some of our girls come back, do I know.

864
00:40:28,982 --> 00:40:32,942
Speaker 1: Reese comes back with her now husband, but she's really

865
00:40:33,022 --> 00:40:37,181
Speaker 1: minor role. And you see Victoria, remember Victoria who left.

866
00:40:37,261 --> 00:40:38,942
Speaker 1: You only see her for like five minutes in the

867
00:40:38,982 --> 00:40:41,862
Speaker 1: last episode, so she's gone. There's a lot of veterans,

868
00:40:41,902 --> 00:40:44,821
Speaker 1: so people who were in the team last season but

869
00:40:44,942 --> 00:40:48,341
Speaker 1: weren't featured players in the series. I suppose the main

870
00:40:48,502 --> 00:40:51,742
Speaker 1: person there's two main people in this season. One is Shandy,

871
00:40:51,862 --> 00:40:54,461
Speaker 1: who becomes a new sort of team leader and there's

872
00:40:54,502 --> 00:40:56,981
Speaker 1: drama with her which I won't spoil. And the other

873
00:40:57,062 --> 00:40:59,102
Speaker 1: is Jada, who's a five year vet I think Chandi

874
00:40:59,221 --> 00:41:01,142
Speaker 1: is also a five year VETT. They've both been in

875
00:41:01,181 --> 00:41:02,861
Speaker 1: the team for a long time, but they sort of

876
00:41:03,102 --> 00:41:06,941
Speaker 1: particularly Jada steps up into this leadership role around pay

877
00:41:07,422 --> 00:41:09,301
Speaker 1: and what's extraordinary.

878
00:41:09,701 --> 00:41:12,181
Speaker 3: Is this is famis destroying everything exactly.

879
00:41:12,221 --> 00:41:14,302
Speaker 1: Remember there was a whole big thing last time about

880
00:41:14,982 --> 00:41:17,701
Speaker 1: they were getting paid not even livable wage, and they

881
00:41:17,741 --> 00:41:19,622
Speaker 1: all had to work two or three other jobs, even

882
00:41:19,661 --> 00:41:23,582
Speaker 1: though the Dallas Cowboys players were getting paid tens of

883
00:41:23,622 --> 00:41:26,142
Speaker 1: millions of dollars, some of them in their contracts, so

884
00:41:26,181 --> 00:41:27,781
Speaker 1: it was very much seen as this little sort of

885
00:41:27,781 --> 00:41:30,741
Speaker 1: part time job. And even despite all of that pushback,

886
00:41:31,422 --> 00:41:34,182
Speaker 1: they started this season and it's actually the twenty twenty

887
00:41:34,181 --> 00:41:38,181
Speaker 1: four season without any pay increase after all of that,

888
00:41:38,582 --> 00:41:41,062
Speaker 1: and they make this big show of showing on the

889
00:41:41,102 --> 00:41:43,341
Speaker 1: show all of the perks that they get. But the

890
00:41:43,382 --> 00:41:46,221
Speaker 1: irony is that all the perks are like sponsored, so

891
00:41:46,261 --> 00:41:48,222
Speaker 1: it doesn't cost the company anything, but it's like free

892
00:41:48,261 --> 00:41:51,781
Speaker 1: botox and free press on nails and free you can't

893
00:41:51,781 --> 00:41:54,341
Speaker 1: pay your rent with free botimes. And it's all the

894
00:41:54,382 --> 00:41:57,622
Speaker 1: stuff that they need to meet these impossibly high understandards.

895
00:41:57,622 --> 00:42:00,741
Speaker 1: And there are these extraordinary scenes with them working these

896
00:42:00,781 --> 00:42:02,861
Speaker 1: incredible hours. Some of the work forty hours a week.

897
00:42:02,982 --> 00:42:05,462
Speaker 1: Some weeks they work and then they come home and

898
00:42:05,462 --> 00:42:08,901
Speaker 1: they have to scrub their own uniforms with toothbrushes to

899
00:42:08,942 --> 00:42:11,701
Speaker 1: get the fake tan and the makeup out of them,

900
00:42:11,741 --> 00:42:13,661
Speaker 1: because their uniforms don't even get clean.

901
00:42:13,781 --> 00:42:16,221
Speaker 2: Do you think, like, because when the first season of

902
00:42:16,261 --> 00:42:18,942
Speaker 2: this dropped, even though there have been reality shows that

903
00:42:19,302 --> 00:42:21,502
Speaker 2: this was the subject of few years, it was such

904
00:42:21,582 --> 00:42:23,622
Speaker 2: a smash hit and we all were talking about it

905
00:42:23,661 --> 00:42:26,142
Speaker 2: because we were looking into a world we didn't know.

906
00:42:26,622 --> 00:42:28,622
Speaker 2: And then the second season we know the world. So

907
00:42:28,661 --> 00:42:29,781
Speaker 2: it's a bit less interesting.

908
00:42:29,982 --> 00:42:33,462
Speaker 1: But I'd say that's probably the case. And it's interesting

909
00:42:33,502 --> 00:42:36,941
Speaker 1: because I talked about gas lighting earlier, this whole theme

910
00:42:36,942 --> 00:42:38,382
Speaker 1: of getting out of your head, like some of the

911
00:42:38,382 --> 00:42:40,542
Speaker 1: girls are sort of psyching themselves out and can they

912
00:42:40,701 --> 00:42:44,301
Speaker 1: perform properly? But then also what's in their head is,

913
00:42:44,302 --> 00:42:46,781
Speaker 1: hang on, shouldn't they be paid more? And you know,

914
00:42:46,862 --> 00:42:48,941
Speaker 1: as they said, the world was telling them, you fight

915
00:42:48,982 --> 00:42:53,462
Speaker 1: for more money. But then the Dallas Cowboys administration are

916
00:42:53,502 --> 00:42:57,062
Speaker 1: all saying, oh, but you know, your full time job

917
00:42:57,142 --> 00:42:59,301
Speaker 1: that you have to do, that's what makes you interesting,

918
00:42:59,701 --> 00:43:01,821
Speaker 1: that's what people love about you. And they also say,

919
00:43:01,822 --> 00:43:04,901
Speaker 1: but we had to work full time jobs. Yeah, And

920
00:43:04,942 --> 00:43:07,022
Speaker 1: so there's a lot of this gas lighting that what

921
00:43:07,062 --> 00:43:09,461
Speaker 1: these women are asking for, they're being made to feel

922
00:43:09,622 --> 00:43:12,421
Speaker 1: really ashamed and uncomfortable and as if if you really

923
00:43:12,422 --> 00:43:14,221
Speaker 1: love dancing, you should be grateful for this.

924
00:43:14,181 --> 00:43:15,701
Speaker 3: Time, and there's another girl who will do it for

925
00:43:15,741 --> 00:43:16,102
Speaker 3: that prime.

926
00:43:16,221 --> 00:43:18,341
Speaker 2: I thought I was going to watch it as escapism,

927
00:43:18,422 --> 00:43:19,982
Speaker 2: am I, we're going to watch it for us escapism

928
00:43:20,102 --> 00:43:21,461
Speaker 2: or we're not really escaping much.

929
00:43:21,582 --> 00:43:23,701
Speaker 1: You can watch it for escapism because the stakes are

930
00:43:23,701 --> 00:43:24,181
Speaker 1: really low.

931
00:43:24,502 --> 00:43:26,222
Speaker 3: Great, I just need to say some high kicks.

932
00:43:26,302 --> 00:43:27,661
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, all of that's good.

933
00:43:27,781 --> 00:43:28,741
Speaker 2: Yeah, still okay, good.

934
00:43:28,982 --> 00:43:30,462
Speaker 1: So if you do want to watch, it is on

935
00:43:30,542 --> 00:43:32,582
Speaker 1: Netflix now and you can binge all the episodes they've

936
00:43:32,582 --> 00:43:33,062
Speaker 1: all dropped.

937
00:43:33,261 --> 00:43:35,901
Speaker 3: I'm going to be cheeky and throw in a recommendation

938
00:43:36,221 --> 00:43:39,301
Speaker 3: for two quick things. The first is my sister Claire,

939
00:43:39,302 --> 00:43:41,862
Speaker 3: Steven's friend of the podcast. You can pre order her book,

940
00:43:42,022 --> 00:43:44,022
Speaker 3: and I don't think I've mentioned that on this podcast.

941
00:43:44,062 --> 00:43:44,301
Speaker 1: Novel.

942
00:43:44,781 --> 00:43:46,661
Speaker 3: She has a novel coming out and it's called The

943
00:43:46,701 --> 00:43:49,062
Speaker 3: Worst Thing I've Ever done is coming out in October.

944
00:43:49,502 --> 00:43:51,542
Speaker 3: And I know I'm biased, So it's like I can

945
00:43:51,582 --> 00:43:54,142
Speaker 3: tell you that it's really good, but it is if

946
00:43:54,181 --> 00:43:55,981
Speaker 3: you read it. I have read it, and I only

947
00:43:55,982 --> 00:43:57,981
Speaker 3: got to read it at the very end. I didn't

948
00:43:58,022 --> 00:44:00,102
Speaker 3: get to read it as a work in progress intense,

949
00:44:00,462 --> 00:44:04,542
Speaker 3: but yes, it is unlike anything I've ever read. And

950
00:44:04,862 --> 00:44:07,982
Speaker 3: while it's about the intensity and the cruelty of online pylons,

951
00:44:07,982 --> 00:44:10,661
Speaker 3: and Claire writes about that with an a curacy that

952
00:44:10,942 --> 00:44:14,301
Speaker 3: is so unique because of how she's spoken to people

953
00:44:14,342 --> 00:44:16,902
Speaker 3: who have experienced it and had tastes of it herself,

954
00:44:17,542 --> 00:44:20,862
Speaker 3: it also has this profound level of depth. It's about

955
00:44:20,902 --> 00:44:23,542
Speaker 3: the selves that we invent on the internet. It's about

956
00:44:23,622 --> 00:44:25,781
Speaker 3: what we forgive each other for in real life as

957
00:44:25,781 --> 00:44:29,582
Speaker 3: opposed to what we punish each other for online. And

958
00:44:29,982 --> 00:44:31,582
Speaker 3: it's one of those books that will change you. You

959
00:44:31,622 --> 00:44:33,741
Speaker 3: will have a very different perspective by the end. And

960
00:44:33,822 --> 00:44:36,182
Speaker 3: I just promise you it is going to be big.

961
00:44:36,422 --> 00:44:38,622
Speaker 3: And the thing about pre orders, We've talked about this before.

962
00:44:38,942 --> 00:44:40,942
Speaker 3: If you pre order a book, you're sending a message

963
00:44:40,982 --> 00:44:43,221
Speaker 3: to the industry, which is a bloody hard industry that

964
00:44:44,661 --> 00:44:46,342
Speaker 3: you're interested in, that people want to buy this book,

965
00:44:46,382 --> 00:44:49,261
Speaker 3: and it's a really important part of the process. So

966
00:44:49,302 --> 00:44:52,181
Speaker 3: you can buy it on bigw or book Topier or wherever.

967
00:44:52,622 --> 00:44:55,102
Speaker 3: And it is out in October. And she also has

968
00:44:55,142 --> 00:44:58,741
Speaker 3: a substack, which is it's brilliant. She wrote a great

969
00:44:58,781 --> 00:45:02,062
Speaker 3: piece called Vulnerable Chat about exercise. Recently, she also wrote

970
00:45:02,062 --> 00:45:05,102
Speaker 3: about being in your mid thirties without botox. There are

971
00:45:05,102 --> 00:45:08,142
Speaker 3: just really interesting essays that she's writing. And I know

972
00:45:08,181 --> 00:45:11,422
Speaker 3: how many out louders love Clare's work, so her substantiautiful.

973
00:45:11,862 --> 00:45:14,221
Speaker 3: It's called NQR or not quite right. We'll have a

974
00:45:14,221 --> 00:45:16,221
Speaker 3: link in the show notes. You're going to love the

975
00:45:16,261 --> 00:45:17,862
Speaker 3: book and you'll love her writing.

976
00:45:18,261 --> 00:45:21,341
Speaker 2: My main recommendation is a book by Deborah Oswald. Now

977
00:45:21,422 --> 00:45:22,982
Speaker 2: some of you will know who Deborah Oswald is. Me

978
00:45:23,142 --> 00:45:27,862
Speaker 2: you certainly will. She wrote Offspring. She is a famous

979
00:45:27,942 --> 00:45:32,781
Speaker 2: veteran Australian TV writer. She has written a book that

980
00:45:32,822 --> 00:45:34,422
Speaker 2: I've been I have been meaning to read it for

981
00:45:34,462 --> 00:45:36,661
Speaker 2: ages because I met her at a writerest thing I

982
00:45:36,661 --> 00:45:38,301
Speaker 2: did and I was like, oh, I haven't read your book.

983
00:45:38,342 --> 00:45:41,142
Speaker 2: But anyway, I did read it. You know, sometimes you

984
00:45:41,502 --> 00:45:43,102
Speaker 2: kind of got to read something because you said you

985
00:45:43,142 --> 00:45:45,301
Speaker 2: would read it, and then you're just like, oh my god,

986
00:45:45,302 --> 00:45:47,341
Speaker 2: this is so great. Her new novel is called One

987
00:45:47,382 --> 00:45:50,502
Speaker 2: hundred Years of Betty and it is a book from

988
00:45:50,502 --> 00:45:53,062
Speaker 2: the perspective of a woman, an Australian woman who is

989
00:45:53,102 --> 00:45:55,502
Speaker 2: about to turn a hundred and she is reflecting on

990
00:45:55,542 --> 00:45:58,181
Speaker 2: her life, and it goes all the way back to

991
00:45:58,221 --> 00:46:00,701
Speaker 2: when she was born in London before the Second World War,

992
00:46:00,982 --> 00:46:04,102
Speaker 2: and then what happens to her. Think about like Forest Gumpen,

993
00:46:04,181 --> 00:46:07,502
Speaker 2: you know how like a history told through one person's perspective.

994
00:46:08,342 --> 00:46:11,022
Speaker 2: So she comes to us Tralia is a ten pound palm,

995
00:46:11,181 --> 00:46:13,302
Speaker 2: you know. It goes through all these different social movements

996
00:46:13,342 --> 00:46:15,142
Speaker 2: and things that have happened to her, but it is

997
00:46:15,181 --> 00:46:18,142
Speaker 2: she is the most delicious character. I just wanted to

998
00:46:18,221 --> 00:46:20,342
Speaker 2: all the time get back to hanging out with Betty.

999
00:46:20,781 --> 00:46:23,622
Speaker 2: Like there's a feminist awakening to a point, but also

1000
00:46:23,741 --> 00:46:27,181
Speaker 2: just lots of really interesting relationship parts to it, motherhood

1001
00:46:27,221 --> 00:46:30,261
Speaker 2: written in ways that are just really refreshing. I love,

1002
00:46:30,302 --> 00:46:32,102
Speaker 2: love loved it. So it's a novel. It's got a

1003
00:46:32,102 --> 00:46:33,981
Speaker 2: great cover, and it's called One hundred Years of Betty

1004
00:46:34,022 --> 00:46:36,902
Speaker 2: and you will love it. And then I also just

1005
00:46:36,942 --> 00:46:38,661
Speaker 2: have to throw in because you've just told me that

1006
00:46:38,741 --> 00:46:40,701
Speaker 2: m Vernham has already recommended this. But Brent and I

1007
00:46:40,741 --> 00:46:43,821
Speaker 2: watched Sinners last weekend, which is a sort of blockbuster

1008
00:46:44,781 --> 00:46:48,142
Speaker 2: vampiary movie with a twist with Michael B. Jordan. It's

1009
00:46:48,142 --> 00:46:50,461
Speaker 2: made by the guy who made Black Panther and made

1010
00:46:50,462 --> 00:46:52,702
Speaker 2: Creed and which are not necessarily things I would watch,

1011
00:46:52,942 --> 00:46:55,701
Speaker 2: But then I watched this. It is the most original movie.

1012
00:46:55,701 --> 00:46:57,861
Speaker 2: It is so much fun, and just watch it.

1013
00:46:57,902 --> 00:46:59,502
Speaker 3: Where can I watch that? Because it was out at

1014
00:46:59,502 --> 00:47:01,181
Speaker 3: the movies and now I can watch her Home.

1015
00:47:01,102 --> 00:47:03,582
Speaker 2: Sinners is out. You have to still buy or rent

1016
00:47:03,622 --> 00:47:05,381
Speaker 2: it at this point. I think it's going to come

1017
00:47:05,422 --> 00:47:07,781
Speaker 2: to Max maybe but not yet. At the moment. You

1018
00:47:07,822 --> 00:47:10,062
Speaker 2: can buy a rent it on Apple or on Prime.

1019
00:47:10,422 --> 00:47:12,181
Speaker 2: And it's like, you know, people say, how can you

1020
00:47:12,261 --> 00:47:13,222
Speaker 2: tell a new story?

1021
00:47:13,342 --> 00:47:13,502
Speaker 1: Right?

1022
00:47:13,741 --> 00:47:15,941
Speaker 2: And it's a fat umpiate movie, so like how many

1023
00:47:15,942 --> 00:47:17,861
Speaker 2: times can tell the MYPI movie? The way you tell

1024
00:47:17,902 --> 00:47:19,862
Speaker 2: a new story is by telling it from a completely

1025
00:47:19,862 --> 00:47:23,022
Speaker 2: different perspective, and this is told from a Black Americans perspective.

1026
00:47:23,022 --> 00:47:26,382
Speaker 2: It's set in the thirties. It is great. It is sexy,

1027
00:47:26,422 --> 00:47:29,062
Speaker 2: it is fun, it is fresh. The music's fantastic. It

1028
00:47:29,221 --> 00:47:31,622
Speaker 2: is violent, but it is fun. Sinners it's great.

1029
00:47:31,781 --> 00:47:34,181
Speaker 1: I might watch that on the small screen because I don't.

1030
00:47:34,221 --> 00:47:36,261
Speaker 1: I can't watch those kinds of things on the big

1031
00:47:36,261 --> 00:47:39,261
Speaker 1: screen if they're scary, But the small screen I can

1032
00:47:39,302 --> 00:47:39,742
Speaker 1: look away.

1033
00:47:39,942 --> 00:47:42,142
Speaker 2: It's got some good female characters and the music.

1034
00:47:41,942 --> 00:47:44,102
Speaker 3: Is oh, that's all.

1035
00:47:44,022 --> 00:47:45,462
Speaker 2: We've got time. Oh that's been a big show, a

1036
00:47:45,502 --> 00:47:48,102
Speaker 2: big Friday show. Thank you to all of you out

1037
00:47:48,102 --> 00:47:49,982
Speaker 2: loud us for being here with us today. We're going

1038
00:47:50,062 --> 00:47:51,502
Speaker 2: to be back in your ears next week. Well, these

1039
00:47:51,502 --> 00:47:53,941
Speaker 2: guys will be at least Jesse and Mia read us out.

1040
00:47:54,181 --> 00:47:57,022
Speaker 3: A big thank you to our team group executive producer

1041
00:47:57,181 --> 00:48:00,582
Speaker 3: Ruth Devine, executive producer Emiline Gazillis.

1042
00:48:00,382 --> 00:48:02,982
Speaker 1: Lea Porgus is our audio producer, Josh Green is our

1043
00:48:03,062 --> 00:48:06,781
Speaker 1: video producer. Coco and Tessa are our junior content producers,

1044
00:48:06,781 --> 00:48:09,542
Speaker 1: and Mom and Mia studios are styled with furniture from

1045
00:48:09,582 --> 00:48:13,781
Speaker 1: Fenton and Fenton. Visit Fenton and Fenton dot com dot au.

1046
00:48:14,142 --> 00:48:15,982
Speaker 3: Before you go, we want to tell you about Yesterdays

1047
00:48:15,982 --> 00:48:19,341
Speaker 3: subscriber episode. Holly and Vernon and I helped too out

1048
00:48:19,382 --> 00:48:24,382
Speaker 3: louders through their dilemma. One had an inheritance dilemma revolving

1049
00:48:24,382 --> 00:48:27,982
Speaker 3: around a piece of jewelry, and meanwhile another is pregnant

1050
00:48:27,982 --> 00:48:32,381
Speaker 3: with her third baby and she's having some regrets. A link,

1051
00:48:32,462 --> 00:48:34,222
Speaker 3: as always will be in the show notes.

1052
00:48:34,342 --> 00:48:36,862
Speaker 1: Bon Voyage Hole. We'll see you in a few weeks.

1053
00:48:37,221 --> 00:48:37,861
Speaker 3: Enjoy it.

1054
00:48:37,942 --> 00:48:41,142
Speaker 2: We love you, bye too bye.

1055
00:48:41,221 --> 00:48:44,221
Speaker 3: Shout out to any MoMA Mea subscribers listening. If you

1056
00:48:44,302 --> 00:48:47,022
Speaker 3: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing

1057
00:48:47,062 --> 00:48:49,661
Speaker 3: to MoMA Mia is the very best way to do so.

1058
00:48:50,022 --> 00:48:51,782
Speaker 3: There's a link in the episode description