1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,342 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:18,901 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:19,182 --> 00:00:23,021 Speaker 3: What actually happened to her in real life, because in 5 00:00:23,061 --> 00:00:27,542 Speaker 3: the show she does for a period seem to heal 6 00:00:27,622 --> 00:00:30,501 Speaker 3: herself and then it reappears. Is that what happened in 7 00:00:30,542 --> 00:00:31,101 Speaker 3: real life? 8 00:00:31,302 --> 00:00:34,461 Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, because she had medical treatment she agreed to have, 9 00:00:34,542 --> 00:00:38,662 Speaker 1: like a very minor procedure, and part of this treatment 10 00:00:38,702 --> 00:00:42,022 Speaker 1: is not having scans. If you're not having scans, how 11 00:00:42,062 --> 00:00:43,902 Speaker 1: do you know if it's working or not. 12 00:00:48,262 --> 00:00:51,142 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what 13 00:00:51,262 --> 00:00:54,222 Speaker 2: women are actually talking about on Monday the tenth of February. 14 00:00:54,302 --> 00:00:55,382 Speaker 2: I'm Hollywayne, right. 15 00:00:55,302 --> 00:00:57,302 Speaker 1: I'm Meya Friedman and I'm Jesse Stephens. 16 00:00:57,302 --> 00:01:00,222 Speaker 2: And on today's show, the world is watching one of 17 00:01:00,262 --> 00:01:04,782 Speaker 2: Australia's best known scammers stories when folding on the Netflix 18 00:01:04,822 --> 00:01:07,461 Speaker 2: show Apple Side of Vinegar. So what's true and what's 19 00:01:07,502 --> 00:01:11,822 Speaker 2: not about Bell Gibson and the rise of the wellness Warriors. Also, 20 00:01:12,142 --> 00:01:15,102 Speaker 2: you might have heard that Australian psychiatrists are quitting en 21 00:01:15,182 --> 00:01:18,302 Speaker 2: mass So what's going on with our mental health crisis? 22 00:01:18,662 --> 00:01:21,782 Speaker 2: And a very famous actress became a mother last month, 23 00:01:21,822 --> 00:01:24,702 Speaker 2: and the world is obsessed with how we're unpacking the 24 00:01:24,742 --> 00:01:26,742 Speaker 2: fascination with celebrity surrogacy. 25 00:01:27,102 --> 00:01:30,582 Speaker 1: But first me, in case you missed it, as we 26 00:01:30,742 --> 00:01:34,902 Speaker 1: came in to record the super Bowl is on, I'm 27 00:01:35,022 --> 00:01:37,582 Speaker 1: very excited because I want to bet with my friend 28 00:01:37,702 --> 00:01:41,941 Speaker 1: who was absolutely adamant that Blake Lively would accompany Taylor 29 00:01:42,342 --> 00:01:45,382 Speaker 1: into the box at the super Bowl like she did 30 00:01:45,422 --> 00:01:48,222 Speaker 1: last year. Oh no, I said, Tree Pain would never 31 00:01:48,302 --> 00:01:52,862 Speaker 1: allow it. Tree Pain iconic publicist, my Roman Empire, and 32 00:01:52,902 --> 00:01:53,382 Speaker 1: I was right. 33 00:01:53,582 --> 00:01:55,502 Speaker 2: So last year she was sitting next to Blake and 34 00:01:55,502 --> 00:01:57,302 Speaker 2: they were having drinks, having a great time, and you're light. 35 00:01:57,342 --> 00:02:00,262 Speaker 2: Tree was like that friendship is not for public consumption anymore. 36 00:02:00,302 --> 00:02:02,622 Speaker 1: We're not doing that this year because it would be 37 00:02:03,182 --> 00:02:07,102 Speaker 1: it would pull Taylor further into that narrative and it's 38 00:02:07,142 --> 00:02:08,902 Speaker 1: just not the time. I also would argue it wouldn't 39 00:02:08,901 --> 00:02:09,982 Speaker 1: be good for Blake at time. 40 00:02:10,102 --> 00:02:12,422 Speaker 2: Everybody is saying as we're recording this that the fact 41 00:02:12,462 --> 00:02:15,502 Speaker 2: that Taylor will white is a hidden message that she's 42 00:02:15,582 --> 00:02:18,822 Speaker 2: hoping he proposes at halftime, And apparently at they are 43 00:02:18,862 --> 00:02:20,782 Speaker 2: so on wedding watch and everyone was asking him, are 44 00:02:20,782 --> 00:02:23,302 Speaker 2: you going to propose at halftime? And he's like, wouldn't 45 00:02:23,342 --> 00:02:23,822 Speaker 2: you like to know? 46 00:02:23,902 --> 00:02:23,982 Speaker 1: You? 47 00:02:24,062 --> 00:02:25,781 Speaker 2: Idiot didn't say no though. 48 00:02:26,062 --> 00:02:30,582 Speaker 1: Look, Travis Kelcey arrived wearing autumn colors. Someone got his 49 00:02:30,662 --> 00:02:33,462 Speaker 1: colours done, yep, and he's taking it very serious. 50 00:02:33,462 --> 00:02:34,662 Speaker 4: I swear you own that suit. 51 00:02:34,862 --> 00:02:37,341 Speaker 1: That outfit is. I'm going to describe it to you 52 00:02:37,342 --> 00:02:39,862 Speaker 1: out loud as it is a suit. But the jacket 53 00:02:39,942 --> 00:02:43,262 Speaker 1: goes down to his mid thigh and he's wearing a 54 00:02:43,302 --> 00:02:45,422 Speaker 1: shirt underneath. It's very sort of seventies. And then he's 55 00:02:45,422 --> 00:02:48,462 Speaker 1: got some black and white loafers and I think a broach. 56 00:02:48,582 --> 00:02:50,622 Speaker 1: I think he's wearing a couple of brooches actually in 57 00:02:50,662 --> 00:02:53,702 Speaker 1: some necklaces. He looks like he's walking down a catwalk. 58 00:02:53,702 --> 00:02:57,622 Speaker 1: He's also carrying a very expensive man bag, which is 59 00:02:57,622 --> 00:03:01,062 Speaker 1: probably like a Burkean or something. Anyway, the sport goes on. 60 00:03:01,382 --> 00:03:02,942 Speaker 1: It's a long game five hours. 61 00:03:03,022 --> 00:03:06,142 Speaker 3: Yeah, apparently there's a game and apparently if they win, 62 00:03:06,181 --> 00:03:07,982 Speaker 3: it'll be the third time so and. 63 00:03:07,942 --> 00:03:11,582 Speaker 2: Then aftime show this year Kendrin Lamar. He will probably 64 00:03:11,622 --> 00:03:13,862 Speaker 2: have a female guest with him because men ye. 65 00:03:14,222 --> 00:03:16,822 Speaker 1: And he's going to diss Drake. That's the whole thing. 66 00:03:16,902 --> 00:03:17,542 Speaker 2: That's the whole thing. 67 00:03:17,702 --> 00:03:18,702 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is there. 68 00:03:19,342 --> 00:03:21,382 Speaker 2: It's a little light on the goss so far. It's 69 00:03:21,462 --> 00:03:24,622 Speaker 2: my sports correspondent. You know that. You know the parade 70 00:03:24,662 --> 00:03:27,702 Speaker 2: where he's walking in in your suit. They all do that. 71 00:03:27,782 --> 00:03:30,462 Speaker 2: So all the guys are like dressed to the nines, 72 00:03:30,502 --> 00:03:32,502 Speaker 2: and I just want everybody to close their eyes and 73 00:03:32,502 --> 00:03:35,062 Speaker 2: imagine the AFL Grand Final starting like that. They have 74 00:03:35,102 --> 00:03:37,182 Speaker 2: to come in their suits when they get off the 75 00:03:37,222 --> 00:03:39,902 Speaker 2: bus in most games, but in America now they have 76 00:03:39,942 --> 00:03:42,142 Speaker 2: stylists for that. There's a lot of competition about who 77 00:03:42,222 --> 00:03:44,742 Speaker 2: gets to dress them, Who's got the biggest diamond earrings. 78 00:03:44,782 --> 00:03:47,382 Speaker 2: I'm just like, please, can we bring that here? I 79 00:03:47,462 --> 00:03:47,822 Speaker 2: want that. 80 00:03:47,902 --> 00:03:50,182 Speaker 1: They also get paid a lot from their labels to 81 00:03:50,262 --> 00:03:53,182 Speaker 1: where you know, it's a good money making thing. Taylor 82 00:03:53,262 --> 00:03:56,182 Speaker 1: is wearing long boots. I was you know how I 83 00:03:56,222 --> 00:03:58,382 Speaker 1: feel about the long boots. But around her neck remember 84 00:03:58,382 --> 00:04:01,502 Speaker 1: it the Grammys, she had on that thigh jewelry and 85 00:04:01,542 --> 00:04:05,742 Speaker 1: it had a little tea her lyric famously from who's 86 00:04:05,782 --> 00:04:08,182 Speaker 1: on guiltyes sin? What if he's written mine on my 87 00:04:08,262 --> 00:04:12,942 Speaker 1: upper thigh, shouldn't Yaki? So he's on her appathigh and 88 00:04:13,022 --> 00:04:21,462 Speaker 1: now he's around her neck, closer to her heart. This 89 00:04:21,502 --> 00:04:24,062 Speaker 1: is a true story based on a lie. Some names 90 00:04:24,101 --> 00:04:27,422 Speaker 1: have been changed to protect the innocent. Bel Gibson has 91 00:04:27,501 --> 00:04:29,662 Speaker 1: not been paid for the recreation of her story. 92 00:04:30,262 --> 00:04:33,942 Speaker 2: Fuckers, what's true, what's not? And how the hell did 93 00:04:33,941 --> 00:04:37,101 Speaker 2: all this happen? That's what everyone who is watching Apple's 94 00:04:37,101 --> 00:04:39,421 Speaker 2: Side of Vinegar is asking each other and the internet 95 00:04:39,501 --> 00:04:43,301 Speaker 2: right now, as a very Australian scammer story is smashing 96 00:04:43,301 --> 00:04:45,381 Speaker 2: the Netflix charts right around the world. 97 00:04:45,381 --> 00:04:46,302 Speaker 4: Have you two finished it? 98 00:04:46,541 --> 00:04:48,901 Speaker 2: I haven't finished it yet. I think I'm about to 99 00:04:48,902 --> 00:04:50,141 Speaker 2: go into episode five. 100 00:04:50,381 --> 00:04:53,061 Speaker 3: I think I'm three episodes in and mayor you finished it. 101 00:04:53,342 --> 00:04:56,101 Speaker 1: I inhaled it. I had a preview actually, so I 102 00:04:56,222 --> 00:04:58,702 Speaker 1: was very excited for everybody to catch up. 103 00:04:58,782 --> 00:05:00,861 Speaker 2: Obviously, in this conversation, we will be talking about some 104 00:05:00,902 --> 00:05:03,421 Speaker 2: of the things that have happened in the show, So 105 00:05:03,541 --> 00:05:06,821 Speaker 2: if you're absolutely worried about spoilers, you might want to skip. 106 00:05:06,861 --> 00:05:09,021 Speaker 2: But we're not really going into spoilers about the show. 107 00:05:09,022 --> 00:05:11,262 Speaker 2: We're talking more about the story behind. 108 00:05:11,621 --> 00:05:14,782 Speaker 3: And the real lives of the people that it's based on. 109 00:05:14,861 --> 00:05:17,301 Speaker 3: So it's sort of what's true and what's yes? 110 00:05:17,621 --> 00:05:21,501 Speaker 2: Because This six part drama is a fictionalized version of 111 00:05:21,582 --> 00:05:25,061 Speaker 2: a story that many Australians know well. That's that in 112 00:05:25,101 --> 00:05:28,221 Speaker 2: the early twenty teens, in the early days of blogs 113 00:05:28,262 --> 00:05:32,462 Speaker 2: and Instagram, the so called wellness warriors were in the ascendance. 114 00:05:33,262 --> 00:05:35,741 Speaker 2: Primary among them and well on her way to becoming 115 00:05:35,782 --> 00:05:39,182 Speaker 2: a wealthy celebrity, was Belle Gibson, a young mother from 116 00:05:39,222 --> 00:05:42,101 Speaker 2: Melbourne who had created an app called The Whole Pantry, 117 00:05:42,262 --> 00:05:46,421 Speaker 2: and it was like an esthetically pleasing collection of healthy recipes, 118 00:05:46,702 --> 00:05:51,182 Speaker 2: very typical of the vibe of the time, very appetizing 119 00:05:51,222 --> 00:05:53,941 Speaker 2: looking wellness bowls and smoothies and things. 120 00:05:54,061 --> 00:05:56,261 Speaker 4: Do you remember her at the time, Holly very well. 121 00:05:56,301 --> 00:06:00,462 Speaker 2: I remember this whole thing very well because we were 122 00:06:00,501 --> 00:06:03,181 Speaker 2: all just beginning to be obsessed with Instagram. It also 123 00:06:03,222 --> 00:06:05,701 Speaker 2: coincided with me coming to work on the internet, working 124 00:06:05,702 --> 00:06:08,421 Speaker 2: at MoMA Maya around this time, and we were all 125 00:06:08,621 --> 00:06:12,342 Speaker 2: very interested in this. The thing is is that although 126 00:06:12,342 --> 00:06:16,461 Speaker 2: the app looked really wholesome, like just healthy recipes, nice food, 127 00:06:17,301 --> 00:06:22,222 Speaker 2: the backstory was not. So Bell sold this Whole app 128 00:06:22,342 --> 00:06:24,862 Speaker 2: and how great it was and the cookbook that came 129 00:06:24,902 --> 00:06:27,861 Speaker 2: after and the awards that she won on the premise 130 00:06:27,941 --> 00:06:32,022 Speaker 2: that changing her lifestyle to a healthy organic diet and 131 00:06:32,142 --> 00:06:36,061 Speaker 2: various alternative treatment had cured her of brain cancer. So 132 00:06:36,101 --> 00:06:38,861 Speaker 2: by twenty fourteen she was winning awards and getting loads 133 00:06:38,861 --> 00:06:41,061 Speaker 2: of money for publishing deals around the world, not just 134 00:06:41,101 --> 00:06:44,541 Speaker 2: in Australia. And she had this massive groundbreaking partnership with 135 00:06:44,582 --> 00:06:47,381 Speaker 2: Apple to be one of the only apps loaded onto 136 00:06:47,381 --> 00:06:50,582 Speaker 2: the first version of the Apple Watch. So that's all true, 137 00:06:50,702 --> 00:06:53,301 Speaker 2: that all happened, right, And then just one year later, 138 00:06:53,421 --> 00:06:56,901 Speaker 2: so in twenty fifteen, two investigative reports in the Age 139 00:06:56,941 --> 00:06:59,861 Speaker 2: newspaper began to pull at the strings that brought her undone. 140 00:06:59,902 --> 00:07:02,301 Speaker 2: There was no proof that Gibson had ever had cancer. 141 00:07:02,821 --> 00:07:06,541 Speaker 2: Promised charitable payments to children's charities and other cancer charities 142 00:07:06,702 --> 00:07:10,021 Speaker 2: were never made, and the community of sufferers and survivors 143 00:07:10,022 --> 00:07:13,702 Speaker 2: who'd found hope in her story were left devastated. Ten 144 00:07:13,821 --> 00:07:16,381 Speaker 2: years and several court cases later, we have Apple Side 145 00:07:16,381 --> 00:07:19,742 Speaker 2: of Vinegar, a high production international hit that explores not 146 00:07:19,862 --> 00:07:23,582 Speaker 2: just Gibson's story, but another famous wellness warriors story. 147 00:07:23,662 --> 00:07:23,862 Speaker 1: Right. 148 00:07:24,342 --> 00:07:27,622 Speaker 2: A woman in real life she's called jess ains Cough. 149 00:07:27,821 --> 00:07:30,702 Speaker 2: In the show, she's called Miller, And just like in 150 00:07:30,742 --> 00:07:33,862 Speaker 2: the show, she started off working in women's magazines and 151 00:07:33,941 --> 00:07:36,862 Speaker 2: Mia Jess was in your orbit. Tell me a bit 152 00:07:36,982 --> 00:07:40,062 Speaker 2: about your experiences around her. She was. 153 00:07:40,262 --> 00:07:42,862 Speaker 1: This is and there are a lot of tragic elements 154 00:07:42,902 --> 00:07:46,422 Speaker 1: to this story and to this show, but this is 155 00:07:46,462 --> 00:07:50,261 Speaker 1: perhaps the most tragic, and I remember watching it happen 156 00:07:50,982 --> 00:07:55,422 Speaker 1: in real time at the time. So Jess started blogging 157 00:07:55,821 --> 00:07:59,262 Speaker 1: about her cancer. She had a type of cancer that 158 00:07:59,502 --> 00:08:03,902 Speaker 1: began as lumps in her arm, and she was advised 159 00:08:03,941 --> 00:08:06,821 Speaker 1: to have her unamputated. I knew her because she'd worked 160 00:08:06,821 --> 00:08:10,062 Speaker 1: in women's magazines. I'd left magazines by that time, but 161 00:08:10,142 --> 00:08:12,102 Speaker 1: we moved in similar circles. We had a lot of 162 00:08:12,462 --> 00:08:15,982 Speaker 1: people that we knew in common. It was quite controversial 163 00:08:16,022 --> 00:08:19,102 Speaker 1: at the time, but she chose, and of course still 164 00:08:19,142 --> 00:08:21,302 Speaker 1: would be now. But she chose not to have treatment, 165 00:08:21,862 --> 00:08:25,141 Speaker 1: not to follow the suggestions of the doctors and have 166 00:08:25,222 --> 00:08:28,941 Speaker 1: her arm amputated, and instead she decided to do something 167 00:08:29,102 --> 00:08:32,342 Speaker 1: that is called in the show hirsh therapy. In real life, 168 00:08:32,342 --> 00:08:35,862 Speaker 1: it's called Gerson therapy. And I had another friend who 169 00:08:35,982 --> 00:08:39,422 Speaker 1: was going through cancer at the time, and she was 170 00:08:39,622 --> 00:08:43,102 Speaker 1: more like the Lucy character in this She's a doctor actually, 171 00:08:43,462 --> 00:08:47,142 Speaker 1: but she was having Gerson therapy as well as having 172 00:08:47,342 --> 00:08:51,822 Speaker 1: chemo and other sort of conventional medicine treatment, and Jess didn't, 173 00:08:51,862 --> 00:08:54,261 Speaker 1: and she was blogging about the juices that she was 174 00:08:54,302 --> 00:08:55,222 Speaker 1: having in the coffee an. 175 00:08:55,302 --> 00:08:58,782 Speaker 3: So Gerson therapy is about a more holistic approach. Is 176 00:08:58,822 --> 00:09:00,742 Speaker 3: it about sort of eating and. 177 00:09:01,142 --> 00:09:05,022 Speaker 1: Start using food to try and help your body cure itself. 178 00:09:05,222 --> 00:09:08,702 Speaker 1: And it's predicated on the idea that conventional treatment is 179 00:09:08,702 --> 00:09:11,742 Speaker 1: poison and your body knows how to get well, and 180 00:09:11,782 --> 00:09:14,982 Speaker 1: you just have to have this very intensive regimen of 181 00:09:15,822 --> 00:09:19,622 Speaker 1: fresh juices and coffee amas, like five a day and 182 00:09:19,662 --> 00:09:21,822 Speaker 1: you have to juice all through the day and. 183 00:09:22,062 --> 00:09:25,742 Speaker 3: Well coffee ANDAs at the time like quite taboo and 184 00:09:25,822 --> 00:09:29,822 Speaker 3: unusual to hear someone talk about a coffee Yeah, because. 185 00:09:29,662 --> 00:09:31,182 Speaker 4: I see it everywhere now. 186 00:09:31,502 --> 00:09:35,222 Speaker 1: Well, people were having colonics back then, but having a 187 00:09:35,342 --> 00:09:40,102 Speaker 1: coffee enema was very specific and this was something that 188 00:09:40,142 --> 00:09:42,302 Speaker 1: you did at home, all of this sort of treatment. 189 00:09:43,102 --> 00:09:45,782 Speaker 1: And what was interesting about it is that it combined, 190 00:09:45,942 --> 00:09:47,902 Speaker 1: as Holly said, it was the beginning of Instagram, and 191 00:09:47,982 --> 00:09:53,382 Speaker 1: Instagram loved beautiful women, beautiful young women, and so yes, 192 00:09:53,422 --> 00:09:57,782 Speaker 1: it was this lifestyle that was this beautiful. Jess was gorgeous. 193 00:09:57,782 --> 00:10:00,182 Speaker 1: She lived by the beach in Queensland. She had this 194 00:10:00,342 --> 00:10:04,302 Speaker 1: very sort of aspirational lifestyle, which is what the algorithm 195 00:10:04,302 --> 00:10:07,902 Speaker 1: and Instagram is all about. And she had this seemingly 196 00:10:08,142 --> 00:10:13,822 Speaker 1: fantastic story about out using these natural remedies to cure herself. 197 00:10:13,862 --> 00:10:16,502 Speaker 1: Except she didn't cure herself. She died. 198 00:10:16,822 --> 00:10:20,662 Speaker 3: What actually happened to her in real life because in 199 00:10:20,702 --> 00:10:25,182 Speaker 3: the show she does for a period seem to heal 200 00:10:25,262 --> 00:10:28,142 Speaker 3: herself and then it reappears. Is that what happened in 201 00:10:28,182 --> 00:10:28,742 Speaker 3: real life? 202 00:10:28,942 --> 00:10:32,102 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, because she had medical treatment she agreed to have, 203 00:10:32,182 --> 00:10:36,302 Speaker 1: like a very minor procedure, and part of this treatment 204 00:10:36,342 --> 00:10:39,982 Speaker 1: is not having scans, so you actually don't know and 205 00:10:40,022 --> 00:10:42,622 Speaker 1: as one of the characters in the show, her father 206 00:10:42,982 --> 00:10:45,382 Speaker 1: or her mother might actually say, if you're not having scans, 207 00:10:45,782 --> 00:10:47,822 Speaker 1: how do you know if it's working or not. 208 00:10:48,062 --> 00:10:50,662 Speaker 3: And in the show her mother gets cancer as well. 209 00:10:50,902 --> 00:10:52,742 Speaker 3: Is that what happened in real life? 210 00:10:52,782 --> 00:10:55,902 Speaker 1: It is? And it was so tragic watching it happen 211 00:10:56,022 --> 00:11:00,142 Speaker 1: in real time. You know, this is someone's cancer experience. 212 00:11:00,182 --> 00:11:03,502 Speaker 1: And this was before sort of Twitter and before you know, 213 00:11:03,582 --> 00:11:07,422 Speaker 1: Instagram was a pretty positive place and there wasn't a 214 00:11:07,462 --> 00:11:10,582 Speaker 1: lot of Internet critique around that time, which is why 215 00:11:10,622 --> 00:11:13,462 Speaker 1: probably Belle Gibson could get away with what with her 216 00:11:13,542 --> 00:11:16,542 Speaker 1: lives for so long. The tragedy was that just wasn't lying, 217 00:11:17,462 --> 00:11:21,342 Speaker 1: and towards the end, as was portrayal, I don't want 218 00:11:21,342 --> 00:11:23,062 Speaker 1: to sort of give away if you haven't watched, but 219 00:11:23,742 --> 00:11:26,582 Speaker 1: it was just absolutely tragic to watch it unfold in 220 00:11:26,582 --> 00:11:28,902 Speaker 1: real time. It was like watching a slow moving car accident. 221 00:11:28,982 --> 00:11:32,302 Speaker 2: So she lived for seven years right between the diagnosis 222 00:11:32,342 --> 00:11:35,622 Speaker 2: and her death, and that's the period that's being portrayed 223 00:11:35,662 --> 00:11:38,702 Speaker 2: in this show. And during that period is when she 224 00:11:38,742 --> 00:11:41,582 Speaker 2: became famous is probably the wrong word, but certainly in 225 00:11:41,622 --> 00:11:44,141 Speaker 2: those circles. Because to your question about coffee enemas and 226 00:11:44,902 --> 00:11:47,142 Speaker 2: juicing and all those things, of whether they were mainstream, 227 00:11:47,862 --> 00:11:50,742 Speaker 2: they weren't mainstream, right. So there's always been lots of 228 00:11:50,782 --> 00:11:53,902 Speaker 2: interesting alternative health therapies, and there's always been lots of 229 00:11:53,942 --> 00:11:57,662 Speaker 2: interesting diet being related to medicine. But as Mia described it, 230 00:11:57,742 --> 00:12:01,142 Speaker 2: the collision of those alternative therapies with Instagram at that 231 00:12:01,182 --> 00:12:06,222 Speaker 2: particular moment basically an unregulated wild West space that really 232 00:12:06,262 --> 00:12:09,182 Speaker 2: rewarded this esthetic. And I guess the question of why 233 00:12:09,382 --> 00:12:12,982 Speaker 2: is interesting and why is it dangerous is because it 234 00:12:13,062 --> 00:12:15,582 Speaker 2: pushed it out into the mainstream in a way that 235 00:12:15,622 --> 00:12:16,542 Speaker 2: it wasn't before. 236 00:12:16,862 --> 00:12:19,142 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it made it all look very pretty. It 237 00:12:19,222 --> 00:12:25,262 Speaker 1: made cancer and wellness and natural remedies. It's a lot 238 00:12:25,302 --> 00:12:28,622 Speaker 1: prettier than sitting in a hospital room with a canula 239 00:12:28,662 --> 00:12:32,142 Speaker 1: in your arm and getting chemo and having your hair 240 00:12:32,182 --> 00:12:35,542 Speaker 1: fall out and all of those things. So people wanted 241 00:12:35,902 --> 00:12:39,742 Speaker 1: to believe these stories, people with cancer and people without cancer. 242 00:12:40,102 --> 00:12:43,422 Speaker 1: And I actually wasn't aware of Belle Gibson. Jess came first. 243 00:12:43,502 --> 00:12:46,902 Speaker 1: Like Jess was famous, you know, within certain circles. She 244 00:12:47,022 --> 00:12:50,542 Speaker 1: was really well known. And the show depicts Belle noticing 245 00:12:50,582 --> 00:12:55,182 Speaker 1: this and wanting to co opt her story and seeing 246 00:12:55,222 --> 00:12:58,622 Speaker 1: the interest and the attention she got and wanting to 247 00:12:58,662 --> 00:12:59,702 Speaker 1: monetize that as well. 248 00:12:59,782 --> 00:13:04,542 Speaker 3: What I've found fascinating is with the context of Baby Reindeer, 249 00:13:04,862 --> 00:13:08,222 Speaker 3: with knowing that this is also a Netflix production, you 250 00:13:08,222 --> 00:13:10,502 Speaker 3: can imagine that in the back of their minds as 251 00:13:10,542 --> 00:13:14,382 Speaker 3: they are editing this, that Baby Reindeer is probably the 252 00:13:14,422 --> 00:13:17,902 Speaker 3: shorthand for We have to be really careful because obviously 253 00:13:17,942 --> 00:13:20,302 Speaker 3: that was quite litigious. We spoke about it at length 254 00:13:20,542 --> 00:13:23,542 Speaker 3: last year. That was the Netflix show that said that 255 00:13:23,622 --> 00:13:26,342 Speaker 3: it was a true story and then of course he 256 00:13:26,382 --> 00:13:30,102 Speaker 3: represented his stalker, who had a striking resemblance to the 257 00:13:30,142 --> 00:13:34,182 Speaker 3: real life stalker. And then in the show there was 258 00:13:34,222 --> 00:13:37,062 Speaker 3: a criminal case, but that hadn't happened in real life, 259 00:13:37,102 --> 00:13:39,862 Speaker 3: and so that's where Netflix found themselves in a lot 260 00:13:39,902 --> 00:13:40,422 Speaker 3: of trial and. 261 00:13:40,382 --> 00:13:42,702 Speaker 1: They're still being sued. I think, I think she's going 262 00:13:42,742 --> 00:13:44,822 Speaker 1: to win a lot of money. And the difference is 263 00:13:45,022 --> 00:13:47,022 Speaker 1: and it's interesting. When I watched this, I didn't realize 264 00:13:47,022 --> 00:13:50,261 Speaker 1: that Emil Sherman, my cousin, was the producer, and so 265 00:13:50,342 --> 00:13:52,062 Speaker 1: I called him up and I was like the baby 266 00:13:52,102 --> 00:13:54,142 Speaker 1: reindeer of it all, How did you do this? Because 267 00:13:54,502 --> 00:13:58,102 Speaker 1: in Apple Cider Vinegar, some of the characters are fictionalized, 268 00:13:58,182 --> 00:14:00,422 Speaker 1: like they don't call her jessayes Cough, they call her 269 00:14:00,582 --> 00:14:03,542 Speaker 1: Miller Blake. And yet they do call some characters the 270 00:14:03,582 --> 00:14:05,422 Speaker 1: real thing, like Bell Gibson is Bell Gibson, and her 271 00:14:05,502 --> 00:14:08,422 Speaker 1: partner Clive is called Clive. And there's a publisher who 272 00:14:08,462 --> 00:14:12,702 Speaker 1: published the book tried to Julie Gibbs. That's her real name. 273 00:14:12,742 --> 00:14:15,782 Speaker 1: So I was interested in that. And what happens at 274 00:14:15,782 --> 00:14:18,542 Speaker 1: the beginning of every episode is that they have a 275 00:14:18,662 --> 00:14:22,302 Speaker 1: character break the fourth wall. It's very effective and say 276 00:14:23,022 --> 00:14:25,582 Speaker 1: this is a true Ish story. Belle Gibson was not 277 00:14:25,662 --> 00:14:27,862 Speaker 1: paid for it, because that's the other thing. Nobody would 278 00:14:27,902 --> 00:14:31,342 Speaker 1: want her to make money. So I asked why they 279 00:14:31,382 --> 00:14:34,142 Speaker 1: fictionalized some and the reason that they did that is 280 00:14:34,182 --> 00:14:38,102 Speaker 1: because that then gave them a little bit more creative license. 281 00:14:38,782 --> 00:14:41,662 Speaker 1: But with certain things, they didn't have to be completely 282 00:14:41,782 --> 00:14:44,502 Speaker 1: true to the story of some of those characters. And 283 00:14:44,502 --> 00:14:46,862 Speaker 1: there was one character that was sort of pretty much 284 00:14:47,102 --> 00:14:49,902 Speaker 1: invented or an amalgam of people, which is the wife 285 00:14:49,942 --> 00:14:53,462 Speaker 1: of one of the investigative journalists. So in terms of 286 00:14:53,622 --> 00:14:57,862 Speaker 1: how Jess's family would feel about it, I can't begin 287 00:14:57,902 --> 00:15:01,062 Speaker 1: to imagine. Only her father is still alive. I believe 288 00:15:01,102 --> 00:15:03,942 Speaker 1: she has a brother as well, who's not depicted. She 289 00:15:03,982 --> 00:15:07,542 Speaker 1: had a fiancee who's just of course we went looking 290 00:15:07,542 --> 00:15:11,622 Speaker 1: for him. He's married and is about to become a 291 00:15:11,622 --> 00:15:14,742 Speaker 1: father or just has become a father. He's posted about 292 00:15:15,302 --> 00:15:17,862 Speaker 1: Jess a lot. He hasn't said anything about this show. 293 00:15:18,022 --> 00:15:20,222 Speaker 2: Everybody wants to know what happened to Bell Gibson. Right 294 00:15:20,262 --> 00:15:22,462 Speaker 2: if you look, people magazine in the US saw the U. 295 00:15:22,702 --> 00:15:25,742 Speaker 2: Because everybody's watching this, everybody's obsessed, and where is Bell 296 00:15:25,822 --> 00:15:29,462 Speaker 2: Gibson now is one of the hottest trending topics now. 297 00:15:29,582 --> 00:15:32,102 Speaker 2: The answer to that question is, nobody's really sure, because 298 00:15:32,142 --> 00:15:34,382 Speaker 2: she kind of bobbled back up into consciousness a couple 299 00:15:34,422 --> 00:15:37,142 Speaker 2: of years ago around some of the court cases about this, 300 00:15:37,542 --> 00:15:39,262 Speaker 2: and at the time it was rumored that she was 301 00:15:39,302 --> 00:15:42,382 Speaker 2: living in Melbourne had kind of become involved in the 302 00:15:42,422 --> 00:15:45,502 Speaker 2: Ethiopian community, and then that seemed like an interesting thing, 303 00:15:45,542 --> 00:15:47,542 Speaker 2: and then no one was really sure. She's alleged to 304 00:15:47,582 --> 00:15:50,782 Speaker 2: have separated from her partner who's depicted in the show. 305 00:15:51,182 --> 00:15:54,702 Speaker 2: But isn't there a chance, baby reindeer style that she 306 00:15:55,502 --> 00:15:57,142 Speaker 2: may come out? 307 00:15:57,462 --> 00:16:00,302 Speaker 1: So for her to come out, because I asked about this, it's. 308 00:16:00,142 --> 00:16:01,462 Speaker 2: Not necessarily sue, but talk. 309 00:16:01,662 --> 00:16:04,142 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that will happen, and I think that 310 00:16:04,182 --> 00:16:06,542 Speaker 1: she'll be paid a lot of money. There's a lot 311 00:16:06,542 --> 00:16:08,582 Speaker 1: of money for her to take if she decides to 312 00:16:08,622 --> 00:16:09,102 Speaker 1: come out. 313 00:16:09,622 --> 00:16:11,862 Speaker 4: Well, you've been convicted in a court of law. 314 00:16:12,022 --> 00:16:13,862 Speaker 1: Sorry, she can't. I don't think she can sue because 315 00:16:13,862 --> 00:16:17,662 Speaker 1: to sue, you can only sue for defamation, and to 316 00:16:17,702 --> 00:16:19,662 Speaker 1: say that she was defamed, she'd have to prove that 317 00:16:19,702 --> 00:16:21,142 Speaker 1: she really did have brain cancer. 318 00:16:21,502 --> 00:16:24,222 Speaker 3: I thought that to make money, I thought you couldn't 319 00:16:24,222 --> 00:16:24,982 Speaker 3: make money off your crime. 320 00:16:25,062 --> 00:16:27,222 Speaker 2: But it depends a little bit because well, there are 321 00:16:27,222 --> 00:16:30,222 Speaker 2: technicalities there because she's been fined for various things, but 322 00:16:30,262 --> 00:16:33,342 Speaker 2: has she been convicted of a crime. Not necessarily, But anyway, 323 00:16:33,382 --> 00:16:34,542 Speaker 2: that's a loophole, okay. 324 00:16:34,302 --> 00:16:36,822 Speaker 1: Because she was paid for that sixty minutes interview. She was. 325 00:16:37,102 --> 00:16:39,582 Speaker 2: But one of the things that I think is interesting 326 00:16:39,662 --> 00:16:43,062 Speaker 2: and why fictionalizing real people's lives is so fraught, is 327 00:16:43,062 --> 00:16:45,982 Speaker 2: when I was watching this show, in the scenes where 328 00:16:45,982 --> 00:16:48,822 Speaker 2: her character is depicted as a terrible mother, for example, 329 00:16:48,862 --> 00:16:50,862 Speaker 2: and like locking her kid in his room and all 330 00:16:50,902 --> 00:16:53,982 Speaker 2: those things, I found myself really defensive of her, which 331 00:16:54,022 --> 00:16:56,422 Speaker 2: is ridiculous when you consider what she has done and 332 00:16:56,822 --> 00:16:58,862 Speaker 2: the lives she is damaged. Because I was like, you 333 00:16:58,902 --> 00:17:00,542 Speaker 2: don't know if she did that, how do you have 334 00:17:00,582 --> 00:17:02,462 Speaker 2: any idea if she did that? And if that was 335 00:17:02,542 --> 00:17:05,422 Speaker 2: me and I was sitting in my hiding corner somewhere, 336 00:17:05,581 --> 00:17:07,542 Speaker 2: there would probably be plenty in this that would make 337 00:17:07,542 --> 00:17:10,222 Speaker 2: me want to go, I want to come out, especially 338 00:17:10,262 --> 00:17:11,262 Speaker 2: if I was associated. 339 00:17:11,382 --> 00:17:15,821 Speaker 3: Yeah, perhaps, And interestingly, early in the series particularly, I 340 00:17:15,861 --> 00:17:19,942 Speaker 3: have found myself empathizing with her and seeing her relationship 341 00:17:19,982 --> 00:17:24,341 Speaker 3: with her mother how she was an outcast her upbringing 342 00:17:24,901 --> 00:17:27,502 Speaker 3: and sort of not understanding. There was a great quote 343 00:17:27,581 --> 00:17:31,461 Speaker 3: from the writer who said that basically you can empathize 344 00:17:31,462 --> 00:17:32,341 Speaker 3: without absolving. 345 00:17:32,542 --> 00:17:32,742 Speaker 2: Yeah. 346 00:17:32,901 --> 00:17:36,901 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and in that way. There is a scene this 347 00:17:36,982 --> 00:17:39,142 Speaker 3: is the number one thing I've googled up until where 348 00:17:39,141 --> 00:17:43,381 Speaker 3: I've watched, which is whether she lost a baby, which 349 00:17:43,661 --> 00:17:48,021 Speaker 3: feels like the most awful thing to google, right, because 350 00:17:48,222 --> 00:17:51,461 Speaker 3: how horrific that you would ask if that was true. 351 00:17:51,542 --> 00:17:54,141 Speaker 1: She's spoken about having a miscarriage, but what the show 352 00:17:54,222 --> 00:17:57,502 Speaker 1: portrays is that she had a very late miscarriage and 353 00:17:57,542 --> 00:17:58,901 Speaker 1: that the baby was still at. 354 00:17:58,782 --> 00:17:59,621 Speaker 4: Twenty four weeks. 355 00:17:59,621 --> 00:18:02,701 Speaker 3: But then, of course you've set this character up who 356 00:18:02,821 --> 00:18:08,502 Speaker 3: is a pathological liar who uses her health to make money, 357 00:18:08,542 --> 00:18:12,502 Speaker 3: and we see her kind of that narrative is part 358 00:18:12,542 --> 00:18:14,742 Speaker 3: of what sells her products and so. 359 00:18:14,821 --> 00:18:17,141 Speaker 1: But I think that's what's challenging about it and what 360 00:18:17,222 --> 00:18:19,581 Speaker 1: makes it just one of the best shows I've watched. 361 00:18:20,101 --> 00:18:23,502 Speaker 1: I think. Ever, when it was depicting her having that ultrasound, 362 00:18:23,942 --> 00:18:26,262 Speaker 1: I was expecting there to be no baby. You know, 363 00:18:26,302 --> 00:18:28,621 Speaker 1: we often say two things can be true. She can 364 00:18:28,661 --> 00:18:31,861 Speaker 1: be a compulsive liar, but also there can be damage, 365 00:18:32,141 --> 00:18:34,662 Speaker 1: like some of her stories were true, like perhaps her mother, 366 00:18:34,702 --> 00:18:36,061 Speaker 1: perhaps she did lose a baby. 367 00:18:36,742 --> 00:18:39,021 Speaker 3: It's unclear, and I don't think it's as simple as 368 00:18:39,061 --> 00:18:42,101 Speaker 3: this one no villain, because I think that there must 369 00:18:42,182 --> 00:18:44,741 Speaker 3: be And I remember thinking this with the sixty minutes interview, 370 00:18:44,742 --> 00:18:47,582 Speaker 3: which is one of the most compelling, bizarre things I've 371 00:18:47,581 --> 00:18:48,181 Speaker 3: ever watched. 372 00:18:48,302 --> 00:18:51,221 Speaker 1: And no one's been able to wear a pink turtleneck 373 00:18:51,302 --> 00:18:52,422 Speaker 1: jumper since then, no. 374 00:18:52,302 --> 00:18:53,181 Speaker 2: One's really wanted to. 375 00:18:53,462 --> 00:18:55,741 Speaker 3: But I remember watching that and thinking that is a 376 00:18:55,742 --> 00:18:58,382 Speaker 3: woman in pain, like something has happened. You don't get 377 00:18:58,381 --> 00:19:00,661 Speaker 3: to that point without having experienced. 378 00:19:00,661 --> 00:19:02,942 Speaker 1: So the reason ump back to your question about will 379 00:19:03,022 --> 00:19:05,181 Speaker 1: she come out, the reason why I actually think she 380 00:19:05,302 --> 00:19:10,342 Speaker 1: probably won't is she's a shape shifter. We can't diagnoses, 381 00:19:10,341 --> 00:19:14,022 Speaker 1: but she clearly has a very complicated relationship with reality 382 00:19:14,101 --> 00:19:16,981 Speaker 1: and the truth. And what we saw in that sixty 383 00:19:16,982 --> 00:19:20,302 Speaker 1: minutes interview and what we see through the show is 384 00:19:20,381 --> 00:19:23,861 Speaker 1: this portrayal that she can't hope when she's confronted by 385 00:19:23,901 --> 00:19:26,581 Speaker 1: the truth, she's slippery. So to come out, I don't 386 00:19:26,621 --> 00:19:28,542 Speaker 1: think she's going to be like, yeah, so I did 387 00:19:28,581 --> 00:19:30,302 Speaker 1: make it up and here's what happened. Like even in 388 00:19:30,341 --> 00:19:33,221 Speaker 1: that sixty minutes interview, she kept maintaining, no, there was 389 00:19:33,262 --> 00:19:35,341 Speaker 1: this doctor and he put a box under my chair, 390 00:19:35,581 --> 00:19:38,302 Speaker 1: and I did think I had cancer. She's so slippery, 391 00:19:38,341 --> 00:19:39,861 Speaker 1: So I don't think she will come out. Will she 392 00:19:39,942 --> 00:19:41,581 Speaker 1: end up on I'm a Celebrity, Get Me out of Here? 393 00:19:41,661 --> 00:19:42,702 Speaker 1: Or Dancing with the Stars? 394 00:19:42,942 --> 00:19:45,421 Speaker 2: Maybe my gosh, I wonder. I also think what this 395 00:19:45,502 --> 00:19:49,341 Speaker 2: show does very well is presents the complexity of these 396 00:19:49,422 --> 00:19:55,741 Speaker 2: issues because through the fictionalized character of Lucy, through Miller's experiences, 397 00:19:56,061 --> 00:19:59,381 Speaker 2: that you absolutely understand and wrestle with these really chunky 398 00:19:59,422 --> 00:20:02,501 Speaker 2: issues about well, who does get to decide what happens 399 00:20:02,542 --> 00:20:05,022 Speaker 2: to your body when you are this sick? What does 400 00:20:05,061 --> 00:20:07,861 Speaker 2: it feel like to watch somebody that you love suffering 401 00:20:07,901 --> 00:20:10,581 Speaker 2: so much? How do you make those decisions? And I 402 00:20:10,742 --> 00:20:13,821 Speaker 2: find all those questions just so interesting to grapple with, 403 00:20:13,861 --> 00:20:16,661 Speaker 2: and it doesn't kind of airbrush over them or make 404 00:20:16,702 --> 00:20:18,382 Speaker 2: them seem easy or binary. 405 00:20:18,782 --> 00:20:21,422 Speaker 1: I think what was different with Jess is that there's 406 00:20:21,502 --> 00:20:25,942 Speaker 1: her choices, which is one thing, but she was very evangelical. 407 00:20:26,302 --> 00:20:30,061 Speaker 1: She was very urging people and is depicted in the show, 408 00:20:30,101 --> 00:20:33,901 Speaker 1: including people in her family, to adopt these same messages, 409 00:20:33,942 --> 00:20:36,502 Speaker 1: and she was spreading the word. She thought she was 410 00:20:36,542 --> 00:20:38,381 Speaker 1: doing the right thing. Tragically she wasn't. 411 00:20:39,542 --> 00:20:44,341 Speaker 3: After the break, why two hundred psychiatrists submitted their resignations 412 00:20:44,422 --> 00:20:53,141 Speaker 3: in just one state last year, You might have seen 413 00:20:53,262 --> 00:20:55,702 Speaker 3: the news towards the end of last year that two 414 00:20:55,821 --> 00:21:00,461 Speaker 3: hundred psychiatrists in New South Wales submitted their resignations from 415 00:21:00,502 --> 00:21:05,102 Speaker 3: the public health system. There have been headlines about pay disputes, 416 00:21:05,182 --> 00:21:10,341 Speaker 3: about the ratio being one psychiatrist to five hundred patients, wow, 417 00:21:10,462 --> 00:21:14,262 Speaker 3: about a chronic shortage nationwide some states are worse than others, 418 00:21:14,621 --> 00:21:18,341 Speaker 3: and about patients with severe mental health conditions waiting an 419 00:21:18,381 --> 00:21:21,181 Speaker 3: emergency for a mental health bed for up to eighty 420 00:21:21,302 --> 00:21:22,022 Speaker 3: eight hours. 421 00:21:22,141 --> 00:21:24,061 Speaker 1: I'm sure there'll be a lot about louders listening to 422 00:21:24,101 --> 00:21:28,141 Speaker 1: this nodding their heads off, having experienced it with either 423 00:21:28,182 --> 00:21:30,222 Speaker 1: themselves or family members. 424 00:21:29,861 --> 00:21:31,581 Speaker 3: Or working in this sector. Winnow, there are a lot 425 00:21:31,581 --> 00:21:34,581 Speaker 3: of out louders who have been sending us these stories. 426 00:21:35,262 --> 00:21:37,022 Speaker 3: I'm going to give a quick overview of what's actually 427 00:21:37,022 --> 00:21:39,382 Speaker 3: happening in New South Wales right now. Because the New 428 00:21:39,422 --> 00:21:42,742 Speaker 3: South Wales government made the decision to pay the states 429 00:21:42,821 --> 00:21:48,102 Speaker 3: psychiatrists around thirty percent less than their counterparts in other states. 430 00:21:48,182 --> 00:21:51,341 Speaker 3: Meaning many professionals have just gone to work in other states. 431 00:21:51,381 --> 00:21:55,061 Speaker 3: In Wa, for example, psychiatrists in public hospitals are paid 432 00:21:55,061 --> 00:21:57,502 Speaker 3: double what they are in New South Wales. This has 433 00:21:57,542 --> 00:22:01,062 Speaker 3: caused a mass exodus. And if those two hundred psychiatrists 434 00:22:01,101 --> 00:22:04,022 Speaker 3: who have submitted their resignations do leave because a few 435 00:22:04,022 --> 00:22:05,581 Speaker 3: of them were kind of pulled back and it's been 436 00:22:05,621 --> 00:22:09,702 Speaker 3: a bit complicated, that will leave just ninety two specialists 437 00:22:09,742 --> 00:22:14,542 Speaker 3: managing the entire system. But this story isn't just about 438 00:22:14,581 --> 00:22:16,821 Speaker 3: New South Wales. I want to zoom out because it 439 00:22:16,901 --> 00:22:21,621 Speaker 3: is about a collapsing already broken system. And this is 440 00:22:21,661 --> 00:22:23,622 Speaker 3: as you say, Maya. If you or someone you love 441 00:22:23,661 --> 00:22:27,021 Speaker 3: has needed to see a psychiatrist just about anywhere in 442 00:22:27,101 --> 00:22:30,661 Speaker 3: Australia in the last few years, you will know about 443 00:22:30,702 --> 00:22:33,621 Speaker 3: the weight times. I have a friend in WA who 444 00:22:33,861 --> 00:22:36,381 Speaker 3: the wait time was eight months. I have friends in 445 00:22:36,462 --> 00:22:39,422 Speaker 3: Queensland who it's six months. Like it can be is, 446 00:22:39,581 --> 00:22:41,502 Speaker 3: it can be a really long time. 447 00:22:41,422 --> 00:22:45,662 Speaker 1: And usually by the time you need a psychiatrist you 448 00:22:45,702 --> 00:22:46,661 Speaker 1: are in crisis. 449 00:22:46,861 --> 00:22:51,221 Speaker 3: Yes, so thirty eight percent of GP consultations in a 450 00:22:51,262 --> 00:22:54,022 Speaker 3: typical week have a mental health component. Thirty eight percent. 451 00:22:54,422 --> 00:22:58,542 Speaker 3: Since COVID, the number of people needing care has gone up, 452 00:22:58,702 --> 00:23:01,661 Speaker 3: and in the last two decades, youth mental health issues 453 00:23:01,661 --> 00:23:04,702 Speaker 3: have increased by fifty percent. Now I didn't know this. 454 00:23:04,742 --> 00:23:07,341 Speaker 3: If you're in hospital, let's say you need an organ 455 00:23:07,381 --> 00:23:10,582 Speaker 3: transplant or something, you need to see a psychiatrist. They 456 00:23:10,621 --> 00:23:12,901 Speaker 3: need to do an assessment on you, right to the 457 00:23:12,901 --> 00:23:15,061 Speaker 3: person who's getting to transplanted to the person who's doing it. 458 00:23:15,381 --> 00:23:19,381 Speaker 3: If you are undergoing cancer treatment, some of those treatments 459 00:23:19,462 --> 00:23:22,381 Speaker 3: have mental health side effects, and it's really important that 460 00:23:22,462 --> 00:23:26,061 Speaker 3: you work with a psychiatrist. So psychiatrists don't just work 461 00:23:26,061 --> 00:23:29,621 Speaker 3: in the mental health would they have these effects all over. 462 00:23:29,821 --> 00:23:32,861 Speaker 1: If you're diagnosed with ADHD and you need medication, you 463 00:23:32,901 --> 00:23:34,861 Speaker 1: need to see a psychiatrist, and you need to see 464 00:23:34,861 --> 00:23:38,142 Speaker 1: that psychiatrist at least once a year just to get 465 00:23:38,182 --> 00:23:40,302 Speaker 1: your scripts. Yeah, fil yeah, yeah. 466 00:23:40,581 --> 00:23:43,341 Speaker 3: I needed to see a psychiatrist during pregnancy because of 467 00:23:43,381 --> 00:23:47,262 Speaker 3: the complication of medication while on that and most expensive 468 00:23:47,262 --> 00:23:50,302 Speaker 3: specialist apoinment I've ever had, but really hard to get in. 469 00:23:50,581 --> 00:23:52,941 Speaker 1: Most people don't realize that. They think that your GP 470 00:23:53,182 --> 00:23:56,581 Speaker 1: can prescribe most things, but there are certain drugs in 471 00:23:56,621 --> 00:23:58,621 Speaker 1: certain situations where they just can't. 472 00:23:58,861 --> 00:24:01,382 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and as you say, you often need them urgently. 473 00:24:01,821 --> 00:24:06,022 Speaker 3: The current workforce in Australia, the current psychiatrist workforce meets 474 00:24:06,141 --> 00:24:10,141 Speaker 3: fifty six percent of current national demand. So this is 475 00:24:10,262 --> 00:24:13,902 Speaker 3: why if you know anyone who works in mental health, 476 00:24:13,942 --> 00:24:16,662 Speaker 3: who works in emergency, who is a paramedic, they will 477 00:24:16,702 --> 00:24:19,341 Speaker 3: tell you that it is the mental health crises that 478 00:24:19,462 --> 00:24:24,941 Speaker 3: are crippling them. So the remaining psychiatrists are stretching themselves 479 00:24:25,381 --> 00:24:28,542 Speaker 3: to do the work of those who have left, and 480 00:24:28,581 --> 00:24:32,702 Speaker 3: so the burnout is just unbelievable. There is a great 481 00:24:32,742 --> 00:24:36,101 Speaker 3: episode of The Quickie where a trainee talks about something 482 00:24:36,141 --> 00:24:38,902 Speaker 3: called moral injury, which means that if you go into 483 00:24:38,901 --> 00:24:41,502 Speaker 3: a profession where you want to help and you want 484 00:24:41,542 --> 00:24:45,061 Speaker 3: to improve the mental health of Australians and the system 485 00:24:45,101 --> 00:24:49,061 Speaker 3: means that you can't, that does something to you, like psychologically, 486 00:24:49,581 --> 00:24:52,302 Speaker 3: and so they're watching people who are coming in. I 487 00:24:52,302 --> 00:24:55,022 Speaker 3: was speaking to a psychologist recently who are saying that 488 00:24:55,101 --> 00:24:57,782 Speaker 3: if you're submitted to a mental health water, if you 489 00:24:57,821 --> 00:25:01,701 Speaker 3: can even get a bed, then they basically are looking 490 00:25:01,742 --> 00:25:04,061 Speaker 3: at the most high risk. So we want to prevent 491 00:25:04,101 --> 00:25:06,661 Speaker 3: people from hurting themselves, but it can actually be more 492 00:25:06,702 --> 00:25:09,341 Speaker 3: traumatic being in there and then the second that you're 493 00:25:09,661 --> 00:25:11,782 Speaker 3: slightly less of a risk that someone needs the bed more, 494 00:25:11,821 --> 00:25:13,742 Speaker 3: they send you back out and it's a revolving door, 495 00:25:13,782 --> 00:25:15,302 Speaker 3: so you're just going back in and back in and 496 00:25:15,302 --> 00:25:17,502 Speaker 3: back in, and you've got these acute crises. 497 00:25:17,782 --> 00:25:22,022 Speaker 2: Presumably, if Australia's demand for mental health assistance is increasing exponentially, 498 00:25:22,302 --> 00:25:25,022 Speaker 2: presumably that's also the case in other places. So who's 499 00:25:25,022 --> 00:25:26,461 Speaker 2: got the answers and what do we do? 500 00:25:26,901 --> 00:25:29,702 Speaker 3: So a lot of it has to do with funding 501 00:25:29,982 --> 00:25:32,182 Speaker 3: and a lot of it has to do with early intervention. 502 00:25:32,661 --> 00:25:36,061 Speaker 3: This is not just Australia who's having this crisis. I 503 00:25:36,101 --> 00:25:39,061 Speaker 3: know that for example, in the UK it's a crisis 504 00:25:39,101 --> 00:25:41,462 Speaker 3: at the moment. And the fact that in order to 505 00:25:41,502 --> 00:25:43,861 Speaker 3: be a psychiatrist, even to be a psychologist, the amount 506 00:25:43,901 --> 00:25:45,542 Speaker 3: of training that people need. 507 00:25:45,901 --> 00:25:49,022 Speaker 1: The need a full medical degree to be fourteen. 508 00:25:48,661 --> 00:25:51,302 Speaker 4: Years of training and then you want to cut their like, So. 509 00:25:51,381 --> 00:25:53,661 Speaker 1: Isn't just part of the problem, and I know you're not, 510 00:25:53,821 --> 00:25:56,101 Speaker 1: like the health minister, but isn't also part of the 511 00:25:56,101 --> 00:26:00,102 Speaker 1: problem supply and demand, Like there's just not this replenishing 512 00:26:00,302 --> 00:26:02,821 Speaker 1: pipeline of people going you know what, I want to 513 00:26:02,821 --> 00:26:05,222 Speaker 1: be a psychiatrist. 514 00:26:04,502 --> 00:26:06,861 Speaker 3: That is part of it, and that the supply has 515 00:26:06,901 --> 00:26:09,461 Speaker 3: increased enormously and that not only do we not have 516 00:26:09,542 --> 00:26:11,661 Speaker 3: the same amount of psychiatrists, they're going down. 517 00:26:12,101 --> 00:26:14,461 Speaker 1: And if you need a fourteen year lead time in 518 00:26:14,502 --> 00:26:19,742 Speaker 1: your pipeline, we needed to be encouraging people to become 519 00:26:19,821 --> 00:26:21,302 Speaker 1: psychiatrists a long time ago. 520 00:26:21,661 --> 00:26:24,542 Speaker 2: Some people are suggesting it should be easier to become one. 521 00:26:24,381 --> 00:26:28,421 Speaker 3: Yes, and that counselors, for example, if you subsidize counselors 522 00:26:28,422 --> 00:26:33,022 Speaker 3: through Medicare, then they can do the work of the 523 00:26:33,061 --> 00:26:36,982 Speaker 3: more early intervention stages. Because I read this great substack 524 00:26:37,141 --> 00:26:40,501 Speaker 3: by a woman named Elena Velanicus, and she works in 525 00:26:40,581 --> 00:26:43,462 Speaker 3: mental health, and she was saying, firstly, you don't get 526 00:26:43,462 --> 00:26:44,502 Speaker 3: the ten sessions for free. 527 00:26:44,502 --> 00:26:45,141 Speaker 1: Everyone knows that. 528 00:26:45,222 --> 00:26:47,022 Speaker 2: Now, what do you mean Because I did get ten 529 00:26:47,101 --> 00:26:50,181 Speaker 2: sessions for free too through my GP years ago. Yeah, absolutely, 530 00:26:50,302 --> 00:26:50,662 Speaker 2: years ago. 531 00:26:50,782 --> 00:26:53,141 Speaker 3: Okay, so this is the new thing that if you 532 00:26:53,182 --> 00:26:53,581 Speaker 3: get I. 533 00:26:53,901 --> 00:26:55,861 Speaker 2: Got put in a mental health plan. That's how most 534 00:26:55,861 --> 00:26:59,022 Speaker 2: people I know first get to see a counselor their 535 00:26:59,022 --> 00:26:59,742 Speaker 2: mental health plan. 536 00:26:59,861 --> 00:27:02,142 Speaker 3: So the way that it works is you get those 537 00:27:02,182 --> 00:27:05,061 Speaker 3: ten sessions and they are subsidized. But because of the 538 00:27:05,222 --> 00:27:09,861 Speaker 3: costs of operating of admin of all of that, the 539 00:27:09,982 --> 00:27:12,181 Speaker 3: gap exactly the same as with your local GP. The 540 00:27:12,222 --> 00:27:14,581 Speaker 3: gap has blown out, so you're still paying one hundred 541 00:27:14,621 --> 00:27:18,101 Speaker 3: two hundred dollars for every session, which isn't possible for 542 00:27:18,262 --> 00:27:21,141 Speaker 3: most young people ABS. And that's where all the issues 543 00:27:21,182 --> 00:27:23,662 Speaker 3: are starting. So they're going we need to do something 544 00:27:23,661 --> 00:27:27,142 Speaker 3: with young people, which might be counselors that they can afford, 545 00:27:27,262 --> 00:27:32,182 Speaker 3: early intervention, more long term, better retention, better funding. That's 546 00:27:32,222 --> 00:27:33,782 Speaker 3: going to be a big thing, I think with the 547 00:27:33,821 --> 00:27:37,181 Speaker 3: budget and you know, even in the next election. But 548 00:27:37,742 --> 00:27:40,581 Speaker 3: obviously there needs to be more psychiatrist trained. That's the 549 00:27:40,621 --> 00:27:42,382 Speaker 3: other thing. But that's going to take funding as well 550 00:27:42,462 --> 00:27:44,701 Speaker 3: to kind of encourage that next level. 551 00:27:45,782 --> 00:27:48,901 Speaker 1: After the break, we are unpacking a new Hollywood trend 552 00:27:49,302 --> 00:27:51,302 Speaker 1: for lifestyle surrogusie. 553 00:27:51,661 --> 00:27:55,381 Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday 554 00:27:55,422 --> 00:27:59,502 Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link 555 00:27:59,502 --> 00:28:01,261 Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears 556 00:28:01,542 --> 00:28:04,262 Speaker 2: five days a week, and a huge thank you to 557 00:28:04,462 --> 00:28:06,101 Speaker 2: all our current subscribers. 558 00:28:14,782 --> 00:28:17,221 Speaker 1: When a baby is born, the correct response is what 559 00:28:17,341 --> 00:28:20,542 Speaker 1: beautiful news, unless it is twenty twenty five and the 560 00:28:20,542 --> 00:28:23,382 Speaker 1: mother of that baby is a celebrity who used a surrogate, 561 00:28:23,581 --> 00:28:26,061 Speaker 1: in which case that new mother gets attacked by strangers 562 00:28:26,381 --> 00:28:29,581 Speaker 1: for the way her baby came into the world. Welcome 563 00:28:29,821 --> 00:28:33,182 Speaker 1: to Lily Colin's life. She is the star of Emiline Paris. 564 00:28:33,222 --> 00:28:36,502 Speaker 1: She's the daughter of Phil Collins, and she posted a 565 00:28:36,502 --> 00:28:39,622 Speaker 1: picture of her new daughter Tove a couple of weeks 566 00:28:39,622 --> 00:28:44,102 Speaker 1: ago in a little basket, under which she expressed in 567 00:28:44,142 --> 00:28:49,342 Speaker 1: the caption her endless gratitude for our incredible surrogate. Now 568 00:28:49,342 --> 00:28:52,181 Speaker 1: I know you'll be shocked to hear that. Reaction was mixed. 569 00:28:52,422 --> 00:28:55,421 Speaker 1: It split along pretty predictable lines. Those in favor of 570 00:28:55,462 --> 00:28:59,181 Speaker 1: surrogacy and the life changing opportunities that it brings for 571 00:28:59,262 --> 00:29:01,902 Speaker 1: people to become parents, so they are along the lines 572 00:29:01,902 --> 00:29:06,461 Speaker 1: of congratulations, beautiful news comments. There were also those who 573 00:29:06,542 --> 00:29:09,462 Speaker 1: accused Lily and her husband, Colin MacDowell of contributing to 574 00:29:09,742 --> 00:29:14,382 Speaker 1: an unethical trend of lifestyle sarrogacy, or as it's sometimes called, 575 00:29:14,462 --> 00:29:21,382 Speaker 1: vanity sarrogacy, and normalizing commercial surrogacy, while others speculated about 576 00:29:21,542 --> 00:29:24,221 Speaker 1: why she might need a surrogate in the first place. 577 00:29:25,022 --> 00:29:26,741 Speaker 1: What we don't want to do today is to make 578 00:29:26,782 --> 00:29:31,822 Speaker 1: assumptions about why any specific women, including Lily Collins, choose 579 00:29:32,182 --> 00:29:35,502 Speaker 1: to use a surrogate because every woman, even famous ones, 580 00:29:35,542 --> 00:29:38,221 Speaker 1: has the right to medical privacy. And we know that 581 00:29:38,262 --> 00:29:41,022 Speaker 1: we have out louders who have used surrogates and who 582 00:29:41,022 --> 00:29:44,102 Speaker 1: have been surrogates, and we wouldn't want to make any 583 00:29:44,102 --> 00:29:46,382 Speaker 1: of you feel attacked for your choices. I was walking 584 00:29:46,382 --> 00:29:48,461 Speaker 1: down the street the other day. I walked past a 585 00:29:48,462 --> 00:29:50,622 Speaker 1: cafe and a woman called out to me and just 586 00:29:50,661 --> 00:29:53,462 Speaker 1: said I love the show. And I said, oh, congratulations. 587 00:29:53,502 --> 00:29:55,902 Speaker 1: She had a tiny little baby in a baby born 588 00:29:56,262 --> 00:29:59,742 Speaker 1: in front of her and I said, congratulations on your baby, 589 00:30:00,102 --> 00:30:02,942 Speaker 1: and she said, yeah to sarrogate. I said how old 590 00:30:02,942 --> 00:30:04,741 Speaker 1: are they and she said, oh, to surrogate, but like 591 00:30:04,782 --> 00:30:07,702 Speaker 1: four months. And I said to her, I was really 592 00:30:07,742 --> 00:30:11,062 Speaker 1: struck by. She was almost apologized, and I said to her. 593 00:30:11,102 --> 00:30:11,782 Speaker 2: Why are you telling me? 594 00:30:11,822 --> 00:30:16,222 Speaker 1: Why that I feel less of a mother? But clearly 595 00:30:16,382 --> 00:30:19,142 Speaker 1: she felt self conscious about it, and that made me 596 00:30:19,142 --> 00:30:22,542 Speaker 1: feel really sad. So again, we don't want to sort 597 00:30:22,542 --> 00:30:26,062 Speaker 1: of talk about any specific women, but it is hard 598 00:30:26,062 --> 00:30:28,902 Speaker 1: to ignore the dramatic rise in the use of surrogates 599 00:30:28,942 --> 00:30:32,302 Speaker 1: among famous women over the last decade. And like I guess, 600 00:30:32,302 --> 00:30:35,782 Speaker 1: any trend relating to women, it's worth unpacking some of 601 00:30:35,822 --> 00:30:38,822 Speaker 1: the big feelings that people have about this issue. A 602 00:30:38,862 --> 00:30:42,382 Speaker 1: little bit of context. Sarrogus is legal in Australia only 603 00:30:42,422 --> 00:30:45,222 Speaker 1: in altruistic circumstances, so that means you can't get paid 604 00:30:45,262 --> 00:30:49,862 Speaker 1: for it, but in America it's legal for pretty much 605 00:30:50,022 --> 00:30:54,461 Speaker 1: any use case. The baseline compensation is around one hundred 606 00:30:54,462 --> 00:30:59,941 Speaker 1: thousand dollars plus endless benefits. They could be wardrobe allowances, food, 607 00:31:00,542 --> 00:31:02,221 Speaker 1: you know, the sky's the limit. I guess. 608 00:31:02,502 --> 00:31:06,062 Speaker 3: So I was reading and I think this is what's ignited. 609 00:31:06,102 --> 00:31:10,822 Speaker 3: The discussion is that a disproportionate amount of rich, famous 610 00:31:10,862 --> 00:31:13,582 Speaker 3: women are choosing surrogacy right and again we do not 611 00:31:13,702 --> 00:31:15,941 Speaker 3: know why, but some examples. 612 00:31:15,462 --> 00:31:17,942 Speaker 2: Although also we hear about those, we don't know how 613 00:31:17,982 --> 00:31:21,942 Speaker 2: many like high flan attorneys or whatever point so using it. 614 00:31:22,022 --> 00:31:22,942 Speaker 2: In America. 615 00:31:23,062 --> 00:31:27,382 Speaker 3: Sarah Jeska Parker, Nicole Kidman, Paris Hilton Grimes, Chloe and 616 00:31:27,462 --> 00:31:31,662 Speaker 3: Kim Kardashian, Prank Chopra, Rebel Wilson, Lucy loun Naomi Campbell 617 00:31:32,022 --> 00:31:36,222 Speaker 3: have all reportedly used a surrogate. And of course there's 618 00:31:36,262 --> 00:31:40,262 Speaker 3: lots of reasons. There are health reasons. Some women are 619 00:31:40,342 --> 00:31:43,702 Speaker 3: unable to carry the pregnancy. Obviously a same sex male 620 00:31:43,782 --> 00:31:47,342 Speaker 3: couple or a single male who wants to have a child. 621 00:31:47,742 --> 00:31:51,062 Speaker 1: Yes, So Elton, John, Ricky Martin, Neil, Patrick Harris, they've 622 00:31:51,062 --> 00:31:53,741 Speaker 1: all used surrogates to become parents because there is no 623 00:31:53,862 --> 00:31:55,022 Speaker 1: uterus in those couples. 624 00:31:55,182 --> 00:32:00,862 Speaker 2: In LA, there are surrogacy concierges, surrogacy attorneys. Every agreement 625 00:32:00,942 --> 00:32:03,342 Speaker 2: you can set up is different. So I've heard the 626 00:32:03,422 --> 00:32:06,782 Speaker 2: Kardashians talking about it a lot. Kim Kardashian says, you know, 627 00:32:06,822 --> 00:32:08,221 Speaker 2: the key to it is to make sure all the 628 00:32:08,302 --> 00:32:11,542 Speaker 2: expectations are upfront, so they negotiate out things like is 629 00:32:11,582 --> 00:32:15,622 Speaker 2: my carrier allowed to eat non organic food? Courtney Kardashian 630 00:32:15,862 --> 00:32:18,542 Speaker 2: thought that it should be in their contract what television 631 00:32:18,782 --> 00:32:21,021 Speaker 2: the carrier was allowed to watch. But Kim thought that 632 00:32:21,062 --> 00:32:23,542 Speaker 2: was a little step too far. But there's a whole 633 00:32:23,661 --> 00:32:28,302 Speaker 2: industry in places like LA that connect you know, the 634 00:32:28,342 --> 00:32:30,741 Speaker 2: people who can pay for that kind of level of 635 00:32:30,782 --> 00:32:33,022 Speaker 2: control with their gestational carrier. 636 00:32:33,102 --> 00:32:34,142 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an industry. 637 00:32:34,222 --> 00:32:37,302 Speaker 2: As you say, different reasons. So Keem and Chloe have 638 00:32:37,382 --> 00:32:39,742 Speaker 2: been very upfront about the medical reasons. Paris Hilton was 639 00:32:39,822 --> 00:32:42,822 Speaker 2: very upfront about saying she was just absolutely petrified of 640 00:32:42,862 --> 00:32:45,302 Speaker 2: giving birth and pregnancy, and so for her it was 641 00:32:45,302 --> 00:32:46,382 Speaker 2: a mental health choice. 642 00:32:46,542 --> 00:32:49,741 Speaker 3: I have to be completely honest, I find the discussion 643 00:32:50,182 --> 00:32:56,622 Speaker 3: of surrogacy and celebrity particularly really uncomfortable. Lily Collins, do 644 00:32:56,742 --> 00:32:59,622 Speaker 3: what you like. I don't have an issue with that 645 00:32:59,702 --> 00:33:05,102 Speaker 3: as a standalone case, but looking at surrogacy should hear 646 00:33:06,342 --> 00:33:07,782 Speaker 3: and the normalizing of it. 647 00:33:08,142 --> 00:33:11,661 Speaker 4: Among a particular killer class. 648 00:33:11,222 --> 00:33:14,502 Speaker 1: Well, it's rich people, because rich rich people to outsource things. 649 00:33:14,382 --> 00:33:18,582 Speaker 3: And it's been a thorny feminist discussion for a long time, 650 00:33:18,702 --> 00:33:21,822 Speaker 3: Like I know that in Britain, for example, in this 651 00:33:21,862 --> 00:33:24,542 Speaker 3: Guardian article I was reading, it was saying that parents 652 00:33:24,582 --> 00:33:28,062 Speaker 3: are increasingly turning to commercial surrogates in countries that you 653 00:33:28,102 --> 00:33:30,782 Speaker 3: know live in poverty, and so the cost of a 654 00:33:30,782 --> 00:33:32,942 Speaker 3: surrogate in India is not the same as the cost 655 00:33:32,982 --> 00:33:36,302 Speaker 3: of a surrogate somewhere else in the world. And a 656 00:33:36,302 --> 00:33:38,701 Speaker 3: lot of feminists also you hear terms like rent a 657 00:33:38,742 --> 00:33:43,822 Speaker 3: womb or feeling as though you're paying for access to 658 00:33:43,902 --> 00:33:47,741 Speaker 3: a woman's body for nine months. The other question is 659 00:33:48,222 --> 00:33:51,222 Speaker 3: what if that woman who is carrying the baby develops 660 00:33:51,222 --> 00:33:53,661 Speaker 3: a connection to that baby, what rights does she have 661 00:33:53,742 --> 00:33:55,941 Speaker 3: on on the other side, can promises be made to 662 00:33:55,982 --> 00:33:57,181 Speaker 3: that woman that aren't kept. 663 00:33:57,342 --> 00:34:00,702 Speaker 2: But we should explain a bit what the ethical concerns are, right, 664 00:34:00,782 --> 00:34:05,342 Speaker 2: because broadly it is that a sort of almost underclass 665 00:34:05,382 --> 00:34:10,142 Speaker 2: of women are being paid to take the physical risks pregnancy. 666 00:34:10,222 --> 00:34:11,582 Speaker 2: That's the not of the concerns. 667 00:34:12,182 --> 00:34:14,622 Speaker 3: Concerns is that you can get and there are cases. 668 00:34:14,661 --> 00:34:16,661 Speaker 3: There was a case in Japan of a man who 669 00:34:16,702 --> 00:34:20,341 Speaker 3: wanted sixteen children and paid all of these surrogacies in 670 00:34:20,382 --> 00:34:24,062 Speaker 3: different countries where they might have no other option to 671 00:34:24,062 --> 00:34:26,982 Speaker 3: make money and they take these enormous health risks, and 672 00:34:27,022 --> 00:34:30,102 Speaker 3: then you know, words like human trafficking come up because 673 00:34:30,342 --> 00:34:34,221 Speaker 3: these women have absolutely no rights. You know, it can 674 00:34:34,261 --> 00:34:38,301 Speaker 3: be seen as exploitation. And the concerns are that it 675 00:34:38,302 --> 00:34:41,982 Speaker 3: would be a class of people. I've seen it referred 676 00:34:41,982 --> 00:34:45,301 Speaker 3: to as luxury childbirth because we know that pregnancy and 677 00:34:45,622 --> 00:34:49,381 Speaker 3: birth is a health risk for anyone. So if that 678 00:34:49,422 --> 00:34:54,461 Speaker 3: then becomes outsourced to women who made the money are 679 00:34:54,502 --> 00:34:57,221 Speaker 3: desperate and in Australia it's very different to be clear, yes, 680 00:34:57,502 --> 00:35:01,502 Speaker 3: but in the UK, yeah, if that then becomes normalized 681 00:35:01,622 --> 00:35:04,781 Speaker 3: and that's something that we're all doing when we. 682 00:35:04,902 --> 00:35:06,662 Speaker 1: What if it's your only way to become a parent. 683 00:35:07,261 --> 00:35:09,542 Speaker 3: Well, then I think that that's different. Exactly the same 684 00:35:09,741 --> 00:35:12,302 Speaker 3: with a sister dying. If you come with a nineteen 685 00:35:12,382 --> 00:35:14,422 Speaker 3: year old who's perfectly healthy, who says I want a 686 00:35:14,422 --> 00:35:16,221 Speaker 3: sister dying, I have an issue with that. If you 687 00:35:16,542 --> 00:35:19,741 Speaker 3: are someone who is ninety three and you have no 688 00:35:19,902 --> 00:35:21,902 Speaker 3: quality of life and you say I want a sister dying, 689 00:35:21,942 --> 00:35:23,662 Speaker 3: I'm like, great, I'd think. 690 00:35:23,582 --> 00:35:26,461 Speaker 1: So much similar to the debate around if you can 691 00:35:26,822 --> 00:35:31,382 Speaker 1: select gender for medical reasons, then why can't you do 692 00:35:31,422 --> 00:35:32,661 Speaker 1: it for lifestyle reasons? 693 00:35:32,862 --> 00:35:34,461 Speaker 4: Well, I don't know if it is like that. 694 00:35:35,661 --> 00:35:37,781 Speaker 3: Yeah, I suppose it is right when we're talking about 695 00:35:38,102 --> 00:35:43,301 Speaker 3: ethical moral when technology or when new systems, who gets 696 00:35:43,342 --> 00:35:47,502 Speaker 3: to dispatility exactly kind of intersect with you know, a 697 00:35:47,582 --> 00:35:50,261 Speaker 3: natural process, which I know that we've been doing this. 698 00:35:50,302 --> 00:35:53,741 Speaker 3: There have been versions of this forever. And people I 699 00:35:53,822 --> 00:35:57,221 Speaker 3: know who used a surrogate, they are brilliant parents and 700 00:35:57,261 --> 00:35:59,261 Speaker 3: they have the most beautiful kids and the most beautiful family, 701 00:35:59,261 --> 00:36:01,861 Speaker 3: and I can't imagine things without it. And I'm thinking, 702 00:36:01,902 --> 00:36:04,701 Speaker 3: for example, of gay couples who couldn't have done it otherwise, 703 00:36:04,701 --> 00:36:06,342 Speaker 3: And I have such respect for that decision. 704 00:36:06,982 --> 00:36:11,102 Speaker 4: But if you're scared of child. I struggle, I really struggle. 705 00:36:12,022 --> 00:36:14,622 Speaker 2: So I mean I understand and I do understand the 706 00:36:14,661 --> 00:36:18,622 Speaker 2: ethical questions, and it is very often the fact that 707 00:36:19,102 --> 00:36:23,622 Speaker 2: more vulnerable women are being paid for this probably not 708 00:36:23,781 --> 00:36:26,221 Speaker 2: to be honest, in the cases of the Kardashians and 709 00:36:26,261 --> 00:36:29,182 Speaker 2: the Lily Collins, those people are probably being paid extremely 710 00:36:29,261 --> 00:36:31,781 Speaker 2: well right for what they're doing, and they probably have 711 00:36:31,822 --> 00:36:33,821 Speaker 2: all the choices in the world. And as part of 712 00:36:33,862 --> 00:36:38,022 Speaker 2: the surrogacy, concierge attorney model I was talking about before, 713 00:36:38,342 --> 00:36:40,661 Speaker 2: you can literally choose. You can flip through a book 714 00:36:40,701 --> 00:36:43,422 Speaker 2: and choose, and there's competition to be a surrogate. So 715 00:36:44,102 --> 00:36:47,221 Speaker 2: this all really comes down to supply and demand, right 716 00:36:47,261 --> 00:36:50,382 Speaker 2: to capitalism Jesse as we would probably put it in 717 00:36:50,422 --> 00:36:53,661 Speaker 2: that I personally think that Australia and Britain and many 718 00:36:53,701 --> 00:36:56,421 Speaker 2: countries like it probably have the right model where it's 719 00:36:56,661 --> 00:36:59,782 Speaker 2: legal and it's accessible, but you can't do it for profit. 720 00:37:00,181 --> 00:37:03,142 Speaker 2: But then some states have different regulations. They say you 721 00:37:03,181 --> 00:37:05,341 Speaker 2: do have to prove that you can't have a child 722 00:37:05,422 --> 00:37:08,142 Speaker 2: of your own, and I think that's tricky because that 723 00:37:08,261 --> 00:37:11,022 Speaker 2: isn't always a black and white. Some people can carry babies, 724 00:37:11,022 --> 00:37:13,062 Speaker 2: but they can't necessarily give birth to babies. There are 725 00:37:13,102 --> 00:37:17,022 Speaker 2: lots of different situations, and I guess my discomfort with 726 00:37:17,062 --> 00:37:20,821 Speaker 2: the judgment comes back to that lady who stopped you 727 00:37:20,822 --> 00:37:23,782 Speaker 2: on the street. Mia is that when Lily Collins announces 728 00:37:23,822 --> 00:37:25,661 Speaker 2: that she's had a baby, and the first thing everybody 729 00:37:25,701 --> 00:37:27,741 Speaker 2: does is sneer about, well, she didn't even want to 730 00:37:27,781 --> 00:37:31,582 Speaker 2: get pregnant, when we have no idea about her personal circumstances. 731 00:37:31,862 --> 00:37:34,462 Speaker 2: The person we're really hurting is that lady, the lady 732 00:37:34,462 --> 00:37:36,221 Speaker 2: on the street who stopped me and felt the need 733 00:37:36,302 --> 00:37:39,701 Speaker 2: to kind of say, oh, she's a surrogate, Like I 734 00:37:39,741 --> 00:37:43,301 Speaker 2: think that with that brush we tame everything, and it's 735 00:37:43,342 --> 00:37:44,942 Speaker 2: a much more complicated person. 736 00:37:44,982 --> 00:37:48,222 Speaker 1: So how is a society do we discuss an issue. 737 00:37:48,261 --> 00:37:50,582 Speaker 1: It's kind of like the botox thing, right or the surgery. 738 00:37:51,022 --> 00:37:53,502 Speaker 1: So we don't want to attack a specific woman for 739 00:37:53,582 --> 00:37:56,781 Speaker 1: her choices, but if a whole lot of people are 740 00:37:56,822 --> 00:38:00,542 Speaker 1: doing the same thing, Like, at what point do we say, hey, 741 00:38:00,781 --> 00:38:02,741 Speaker 1: is this what we're doing now? If we want to 742 00:38:03,862 --> 00:38:06,261 Speaker 1: not you know, interrupt our career, or if we're just 743 00:38:06,302 --> 00:38:07,342 Speaker 1: scared of the pain. 744 00:38:07,181 --> 00:38:10,422 Speaker 2: Of childbirth, or or we can't afford a career, we kind. 745 00:38:10,261 --> 00:38:11,901 Speaker 1: Of afford a kree bake, or we just we don't 746 00:38:11,902 --> 00:38:14,302 Speaker 1: want to have the disruption to our weight and our body. 747 00:38:15,142 --> 00:38:17,181 Speaker 1: It's the disconnect with everyone going, oh wait, is that 748 00:38:17,261 --> 00:38:18,982 Speaker 1: what we're doing now? Because I hadn't caught up. 749 00:38:19,221 --> 00:38:19,502 Speaker 4: Yeah. 750 00:38:19,661 --> 00:38:22,821 Speaker 3: Lucy Lou spoke about her decision and said it wasn't 751 00:38:22,862 --> 00:38:25,462 Speaker 3: driven by any medical needs. She said it just seemed 752 00:38:25,502 --> 00:38:27,422 Speaker 3: like the right option for me because I was working 753 00:38:27,462 --> 00:38:28,902 Speaker 3: and I didn't know when I was going to be 754 00:38:28,942 --> 00:38:32,622 Speaker 3: able to stop. Like this is just going to widen 755 00:38:32,741 --> 00:38:35,182 Speaker 3: the demand between the rich and poor, which is already 756 00:38:35,221 --> 00:38:39,381 Speaker 3: getting wider and wider. But if you feel like your 757 00:38:39,542 --> 00:38:43,301 Speaker 3: job doesn't allow you to slow down for nine months 758 00:38:43,382 --> 00:38:45,382 Speaker 3: or whatever to go and have that baby, I mean, firstly, 759 00:38:45,382 --> 00:38:47,741 Speaker 3: women are doing it every day and you read a 760 00:38:47,781 --> 00:38:49,022 Speaker 3: statement like that and you go. 761 00:38:49,342 --> 00:38:51,982 Speaker 4: Well, everyone else's career has to stop for five minutes. 762 00:38:53,102 --> 00:38:54,982 Speaker 1: That I think that's part of the pushback is the 763 00:38:55,022 --> 00:38:56,821 Speaker 1: women who've had babies and go, well, I had to 764 00:38:56,862 --> 00:39:00,221 Speaker 1: do it, elephant in the room. Have you watched any 765 00:39:00,261 --> 00:39:03,422 Speaker 1: red carpets lately? Have you looked at awards seasons? The 766 00:39:03,462 --> 00:39:08,181 Speaker 1: pressure on women in Hollywood to be thin, no matter 767 00:39:08,221 --> 00:39:10,781 Speaker 1: how old they are, no matter how many children they've 768 00:39:10,822 --> 00:39:13,382 Speaker 1: had is insane. Well, and to say that that is 769 00:39:13,462 --> 00:39:17,102 Speaker 1: not a contributing factor is crazy. 770 00:39:17,221 --> 00:39:19,221 Speaker 2: But a lot of those women have had children, you 771 00:39:19,261 --> 00:39:21,661 Speaker 2: know what I mean. Like again, in Hollywood, you can 772 00:39:21,741 --> 00:39:24,142 Speaker 2: have a million and a lot of them. 773 00:39:24,342 --> 00:39:26,542 Speaker 1: What happened to Kim Kardashi in when she was pregnant, 774 00:39:26,622 --> 00:39:29,861 Speaker 1: She has a couch, she has fat change, She was 775 00:39:29,902 --> 00:39:30,982 Speaker 1: compared to a killer whale. 776 00:39:31,741 --> 00:39:35,502 Speaker 3: Pregnancy and birth is something that Hollywood doesn't do. I 777 00:39:35,542 --> 00:39:37,382 Speaker 3: think that's a problem exactly. 778 00:39:37,502 --> 00:39:41,181 Speaker 1: And if it's something that isn't considered attractive enough to 779 00:39:41,221 --> 00:39:44,341 Speaker 1: be done by these women who earn a living by 780 00:39:44,342 --> 00:39:46,502 Speaker 1: being actresses and famous. 781 00:39:45,982 --> 00:39:47,942 Speaker 3: Or the other thing that I read in a report 782 00:39:47,982 --> 00:39:51,662 Speaker 3: that's unsubstantiated, but it was in a report that said 783 00:39:51,942 --> 00:39:54,502 Speaker 3: there's been theories that for some of the women, in 784 00:39:54,661 --> 00:39:56,701 Speaker 3: order to be in Hollywood, you need to have such 785 00:39:56,822 --> 00:39:58,982 Speaker 3: low body fat that it is not possible for you 786 00:39:59,062 --> 00:39:59,941 Speaker 3: to carry a r chipe. 787 00:40:00,582 --> 00:40:01,421 Speaker 4: And so there's that. 788 00:40:01,382 --> 00:40:04,662 Speaker 3: Element, which is an industry that needs examining rather than. 789 00:40:04,701 --> 00:40:06,622 Speaker 2: I guess a lot of my discomfort with this, though, 790 00:40:06,781 --> 00:40:10,701 Speaker 2: is that we are really speculating, making a lot of 791 00:40:10,741 --> 00:40:13,942 Speaker 2: assumptions about why these women are making these choices, and 792 00:40:14,022 --> 00:40:17,221 Speaker 2: I don't think that the Lily Collins is unless they 793 00:40:17,221 --> 00:40:19,542 Speaker 2: want to in the way that Paris Hilton has discussed it, 794 00:40:19,622 --> 00:40:22,261 Speaker 2: Lucy lou has discussed it. I don't think they owe 795 00:40:22,342 --> 00:40:25,261 Speaker 2: us any explanations. I think that so her husband just 796 00:40:25,302 --> 00:40:27,462 Speaker 2: after they had their baby and they posted and everybody 797 00:40:27,502 --> 00:40:30,062 Speaker 2: came for them. He said, in regards to the unkind 798 00:40:30,102 --> 00:40:32,342 Speaker 2: messages about surrogacy and our path to having a baby, 799 00:40:32,342 --> 00:40:34,821 Speaker 2: It's okay not to be an expert on surrogacy. It's 800 00:40:34,862 --> 00:40:37,022 Speaker 2: okay to not know why someone else might need a 801 00:40:37,062 --> 00:40:39,542 Speaker 2: surrogate to have a child. It's okay to not know 802 00:40:39,661 --> 00:40:42,142 Speaker 2: the motivations of a surrogate, regardless of what you assume. 803 00:40:42,181 --> 00:40:44,902 Speaker 2: And I absolutely agree with that. I don't think we 804 00:40:45,102 --> 00:40:48,582 Speaker 2: have a right to know every woman's medical records, and personally, 805 00:40:48,582 --> 00:40:51,422 Speaker 2: I think Australia and Britain and places where surrogacy is 806 00:40:51,422 --> 00:40:55,221 Speaker 2: tightly regulated have got it about right. But America, they 807 00:40:55,422 --> 00:40:57,781 Speaker 2: turn over a whole lot of important health things to 808 00:40:57,822 --> 00:40:59,942 Speaker 2: the private sector. That's the way they roll, and this 809 00:41:00,102 --> 00:41:00,982 Speaker 2: is just another one. 810 00:41:01,062 --> 00:41:03,261 Speaker 3: I think there's going to be inevitable questions when people 811 00:41:03,342 --> 00:41:06,142 Speaker 3: say here's my baby and they weren't pregnant. 812 00:41:05,902 --> 00:41:09,142 Speaker 1: And one thing we should say, we are all mothers 813 00:41:09,142 --> 00:41:13,181 Speaker 1: of children. So yes, we are speaking from a perspective 814 00:41:13,342 --> 00:41:16,301 Speaker 1: of privilege. And if you are suffering from infertility and 815 00:41:16,422 --> 00:41:19,381 Speaker 1: sarrogacy or the potential of sarrogacy is your only way 816 00:41:19,382 --> 00:41:22,181 Speaker 1: of becoming a mother, I can get why this is 817 00:41:22,221 --> 00:41:24,261 Speaker 1: a really hard conversation for you to listen to. 818 00:41:25,462 --> 00:41:27,781 Speaker 2: Massive thank you out louders for being with us here 819 00:41:27,862 --> 00:41:31,741 Speaker 2: this Super Bowl Monday, and to our fabulous team for 820 00:41:31,862 --> 00:41:34,261 Speaker 2: putting this show together. I know you're as excited as 821 00:41:34,261 --> 00:41:37,902 Speaker 2: we are. Who wins this funny game between a sparrow 822 00:41:37,902 --> 00:41:41,422 Speaker 2: and an eagle or something. Anyway, we'll be back in 823 00:41:41,502 --> 00:41:44,062 Speaker 2: your ears tomorrow. Goodbye. 824 00:41:44,582 --> 00:41:47,741 Speaker 1: Shout out to any Mum and Maya subscribers listening. If 825 00:41:47,781 --> 00:41:50,382 Speaker 1: you love the show and want to support us as well, 826 00:41:50,582 --> 00:41:52,981 Speaker 1: subscribing to Mom and Miya is the very best way 827 00:41:53,022 --> 00:41:55,542 Speaker 1: to do so. There is a link in the episode description.