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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mumma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's daily news podcast,

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Speaker 2: The Quickie. Yesterday marked fourteen years since Australia saw the

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Speaker 2: first woman step up as Prime Minister.

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Speaker 4: The next Labor Prime Minister and the first female Prime

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Speaker 4: Minister of this country will be Julia Gillard. Wayne Swan

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Speaker 4: will be the next Liberty Prime Minister.

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Speaker 2: So who will be the next There's been rumors about

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Speaker 2: politicians of the past who could have been the next

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Speaker 2: woman to step into the top job in this country,

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Speaker 2: but so far the leadership of all major parties continued

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Speaker 2: to be men. Before we remember the controversial elevation of

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Speaker 2: Julia Gillard to the Prime ministership. Let's get the letters

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Speaker 2: from the Quickie newsroom. Tuesday, June twenty five, the Princess

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Speaker 2: Royal has been taken to hospital and reportedly suffering a

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Speaker 2: horse related injury. The seventy three year old sister of

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Speaker 2: King Charles, who often touted as the hardest working royal,

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Speaker 2: was involved in an incident at Gatkin Park estate on Sunday,

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Speaker 2: Buckingham Palace releasing a statement saying Anne is expected to

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Speaker 2: make a full recovery but remains in Southmead Hospital as

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Speaker 2: a precautionary measure for observation. They didn't release details of

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Speaker 2: the incident, but it's believed to be related to possibly

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Speaker 2: either a kick or head butt from a horse. The princess,

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Speaker 2: who undertook four hundred and fifty seven royal engagements in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, has had to pull out of attending

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Speaker 2: a banquet for the Japanese state visit and a visit

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Speaker 2: to Canada as a result, apologizing for the inconvenience. From

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Speaker 2: July one, vapes will be banned for sale outside of

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Speaker 2: a pharmacy, but the restrictions on who can access them

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Speaker 2: have been watered down. Originally, the federal government had planned

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Speaker 2: to restrict vape access through pharmacies to only those holding

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Speaker 2: a prescription from their doctor, but in order to win

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Speaker 2: support from the Greens for this legislation, they agreed on

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Speaker 2: an amendment that access won't be restricted to prescription only

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Speaker 2: for those aged over eighteen. A spokesperson for the Pharmacy

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Speaker 2: Guild says it's strongly poses the deal to drop prescriptions,

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Speaker 2: saying no vaping product has been approved by the Therapeutic

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Speaker 2: Goods Administration based on its safety, efficacy, or performance. Green's

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Speaker 2: health spokesperson Jordan steel John says they don't support prohibition,

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Speaker 2: but do want to prevent children from getting access. Two

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Speaker 2: Israeli airstrikes targeting AID supplies have killed at least eleven

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Speaker 2: Palestinians in Gaza as tanks push further into the southern

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Speaker 2: city of Rafa. One strike hit a food distribution center

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Speaker 2: in Gaza City near the Shatti refugee camp. Another in

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Speaker 2: a town on the southern Gaza Strip, killed eight people,

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Speaker 2: including the guards who were accompanying the AID trucks. Israel

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Speaker 2: has not responded to requests for comment on the targeting

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Speaker 2: of AID supplies, but have previously denied attacking AID efforts,

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Speaker 2: accusing Hamas militants of causing harm by operating amongst civilians.

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Speaker 2: An airstrike on a medical clinic in Gaza City killed

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Speaker 2: the director of the city's ambulance and Emergency department. The

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Speaker 2: IDF said they took out a Hamas armed commander. Taylor

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Speaker 2: Swift has reflected on her London shows on Instagrams, saying

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Speaker 2: she was blown away by the volume of the crowds

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Speaker 2: and was still cracking up Slash swooning over her boyfriend

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Speaker 2: Travis joining her on stage. The NFL Super Bowl winner

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Speaker 2: carried Swift on stage dressed in a morning suit after

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Speaker 2: she pretended to faint, giving the audience a special treat.

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Speaker 2: For the final of her three shows at Wembley Stadium.

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Speaker 2: Swift wrote that she was never going to forget these shows,

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Speaker 2: naming all the stars who joined her to sing versions

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Speaker 2: of their songs together, but said she can't wait to

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Speaker 2: do it five more times. In August, She's headed to

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Speaker 2: Dublin for the next leg of her Ears tour. That's

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Speaker 2: what's happening around the world today. Next, is there a

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Speaker 2: woman on Australia's political radar who could potentially be the

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Speaker 2: next to around the country Or are we decades or

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Speaker 2: even more away from seeing that happen again. On the

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Speaker 2: twenty fourth of June twenty ten, there was a leadership

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Speaker 2: spill in Canberra.

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Speaker 4: Julia Gillard came to see me and has requested a

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Speaker 4: ballot for the leadership of the Labor Party.

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Speaker 5: As a result of that request, I will be writing to.

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Speaker 4: The Secretary of the Caucus to convene a special meeting

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Speaker 4: at the Caucus at nine o'clock.

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Speaker 3: In the morning.

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Speaker 2: Kevin Rudd would walk away from the job, licking his wounds,

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Speaker 2: handing the leadership over to his deputy Julia Gillard.

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Speaker 5: There was nothing about any of this. The leadership changed,

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Speaker 5: nothing about it that was easy for Kevin Rudd or

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Speaker 5: for his family, and we saw that pain on display.

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Speaker 2: That's Gillard speaking to Channel nine to sixty minutes program.

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Speaker 2: She had the backing of the party after it had

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Speaker 2: become clear that the Australian public were not happy with

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Speaker 2: Kevin Rudd, but her rise to the top as Australia's

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Speaker 2: first woman prime minister was tired with the fact that

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Speaker 2: she hadn't been voted into the position. She would almost

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Speaker 2: silence her critics at an election she called just days

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Speaker 2: after coming into the position, and a few months later.

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Speaker 2: The Gillard led Labor Party won the twenty ten election,

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Speaker 2: but the close contest left us with a hung Parliament,

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Speaker 2: the first since the nineteen forties. With support from one

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Speaker 2: Greens MP and three independents, Gillard would become the first

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Speaker 2: female prime minister to be elected into the position, but

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Speaker 2: her win was short lived. Just three years later and

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Speaker 2: another spill was called.

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Speaker 6: It's in the best interests of the nation and in

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Speaker 6: the best interests of the Labor Party for this matter

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Speaker 6: to be resolved. So whilst I haven't been approached by

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Speaker 6: anyone saying that they wish to be Prime Minister or

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Speaker 6: Labor leader, is my intention to call a ballot for

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Speaker 6: the Labor leadership.

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Speaker 5: At seven pm tonight.

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Speaker 2: Rudd was back to challenge for his old job. The

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Speaker 2: evidence as to how bitter it had become between the

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Speaker 2: two was made very clear when they both appeared on

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Speaker 2: the ABC series The Killing Season.

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Speaker 6: Kevin was very fragile in the face of criticism, including

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Speaker 6: the implied criticism that comes with bad polls or bad

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Speaker 6: news stories. I mean, I think for him across his life,

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Speaker 6: and perhaps some of this is explained by the hardship

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Speaker 6: of his early years, but across his life he filled

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Speaker 6: the need for himself to be filled by the approval

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Speaker 6: of others. So clearly there's a pole that needs to

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Speaker 6: be filled by applause and approval.

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Speaker 4: The first thing I'd say about that is I haven't

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Speaker 4: seen Julia's university qualifications as a psychoanalyst.

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Speaker 2: Rud challenged and it was all over for Australia's first

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Speaker 2: woman to lead the country.

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Speaker 4: We have just conducted the ballot. There was a spill

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Speaker 4: for the position of leadership. I can announce the result

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Speaker 4: that it is Kevin Rudd fifty seven votes Julia Gillard

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Speaker 4: forty five votes.

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Speaker 2: That was in twenty thirteen and more than ten years later,

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Speaker 2: and officially fourteen years since Australia welcomed their first woman

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Speaker 2: as prime minister. Are there women currently in Parliament showing

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Speaker 2: any signs of being anywhere near the leadership position? Amy

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Speaker 2: Amikus is a political reporter for The Guardian Australia. Amy

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Speaker 2: I was just reading Jenna Price's The Canberra Times columnists

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Speaker 2: piece on when we may get another woman in the

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Speaker 2: prime minister's position, and she claims to have spoken to

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Speaker 2: a Liberal woman in a senior position who said off

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Speaker 2: the record that it would be six hundred years before

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Speaker 2: we see that happen again. What do you think about that?

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Speaker 2: Will it really be that long?

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Speaker 3: You think?

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Speaker 1: Look, I mean, I think, given the way that these

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Speaker 1: debates run, six hundred years might even be a little

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Speaker 1: bit too generous with what we've been seeing lately and

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Speaker 1: what our past is on this, I mean, the very

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Speaker 1: depressing fact of the matter is that there's no one

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Speaker 1: on the horizon. There is no woman in a senior

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Speaker 1: leadership position who looks like they would get the support

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Speaker 1: of one of the major parties, which is what you

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Speaker 1: would need as the first step to having a female

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Speaker 1: prime minister in Australia. We don't even really have somebody

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Speaker 1: who looks like up and running to take over the

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Speaker 1: leadership of either major party. And without that, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to have a woman as the Australian Prime minister,

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Speaker 1: let alone even giving the electorate a chance to vote

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Speaker 1: for a woman as Australia's Prime minister.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, it is sort of depressing.

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Speaker 2: Well, from that article, we can kind of deduce that

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Speaker 2: women in Canberra who are in these positions understand that

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Speaker 2: their chances of becoming party leaders are very, very slim.

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Speaker 2: Do you think they are fighting that or is there

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Speaker 2: an acceptance in Canberra now that they've just got to

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Speaker 2: kind of get through this period and maybe an opportunity

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Speaker 2: will come their way.

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Speaker 3: Well, of course they're fighting it.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think anyone gets into politics thinking that,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's no chance that they'll ever be leader,

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Speaker 1: or there's no chance of something happening.

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Speaker 3: But when you look at the figures, I mean you

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Speaker 3: look at.

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Speaker 1: The Greens, They've got more women in their party than men,

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Speaker 1: but you've still got a male leader. Labor has fifty

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Speaker 1: to fifty parity. If you take the House and the Senate,

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Speaker 1: they still have two male leaders and the Coalition has

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Speaker 1: less women than they did when we started talking about

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Speaker 1: all of this with Julia Gillard. And there is nobody

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Speaker 1: on the horizon who looks like ever becoming the leader

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Speaker 1: of the Liberal Party if she's female. So while there

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Speaker 1: is internal fights, there isn't that shift at the leadership

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Speaker 1: level because it comes down to a man having to

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Speaker 1: move aside, and I think we all know that that

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Speaker 1: is very unlikely to happen, just from our own lives and.

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Speaker 3: Our own dealings with business.

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Speaker 1: Men don't usually like to step aside to create that space.

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Speaker 2: Before we get into who potentially might and the ones

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Speaker 2: that we would hope might be gunning for that position,

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Speaker 2: can we just go backwards for a moment and look

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Speaker 2: at the last two women who we thought were really

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Speaker 2: good contenders to potentially become leaders. First of all, is

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Speaker 2: Tanya pliversek. Now, obviously she had some things going on

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Speaker 2: in her personal life, but there was a moment there

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Speaker 2: where we thought that it was going to happen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Tania Pliversek has often been raised as one of

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Speaker 1: Labour's future leaders at the moment in what they like

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Speaker 1: to call in Canbro the freezer, and that's because she's

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Speaker 1: in the same faction as Anthony Albanesi.

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Speaker 3: That means that she's on the same.

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Speaker 1: Side of labor debates as Anthony Alberesi, and factional leaders

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Speaker 1: don't usually like having, you know, challenges to their leadership,

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Speaker 1: and so Tania piliversecs being put into the environment portfolio,

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Speaker 1: which is when you look at the portfolio rankings, it's important,

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Speaker 1: but it's not one of the big three, I suppose.

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Speaker 1: And it also involves, particularly for a labor minister, a

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Speaker 1: lot of very tricky questions as Labor is not necessarily

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Speaker 1: handling the environment.

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Speaker 3: As some people would like. And so Tanya Plipasek has

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Speaker 3: probably dropped down the rankings of future Labor leaders just

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Speaker 3: at this point.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what happened to Julie Bishop, Like she was

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Speaker 2: looking right for the leadership and then she puff She's gone.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what happened to Julie Bishop was there was a

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Speaker 1: leadership vote in the Liberal Party that ended up with

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Speaker 1: Scott Morrison as the Prime Minister, and none of her

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Speaker 1: colleagues voted for her. I think she got three votes

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Speaker 1: in that leadership vote and she was knocked out in

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Speaker 1: the first round. She didn't even have her Western Australian

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Speaker 1: colleagues vote for her. And afterwards they all said the

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Speaker 1: same thing, Jules. We think you're a great leader, you know,

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Speaker 1: we think you do a great job, but this is

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Speaker 1: all about strategy and we're trying to block XX from

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Speaker 1: getting in and so we had to sacrifice you. And

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Speaker 1: that essentially said to Julie Bishop that the Liberal Party

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Speaker 1: was never going to vote for her as a leader,

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Speaker 1: despite ten years of very loyal service to the leadership

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Speaker 1: under a variety of different leaders and so she quit.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's look forward. I guess at this point,

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Speaker 2: with Labor currently in power, the most obvious woman who

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Speaker 2: kind of stands up as being leadership potential is Penny Wong.

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Speaker 2: What is holding Penny Wong back from wanting to step

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Speaker 2: into that leadership role.

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Speaker 1: I don't think Penny Wong wants the job. And I

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Speaker 1: say that because Penny Wong has steadfastly remained in the Senate,

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Speaker 1: which isn't you know, necessarily like a barrier to becoming

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Speaker 1: Prime Minister under the Constitution. But you don't tend to

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Speaker 1: get leaders from the Senate, and that's because they're not

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Speaker 1: directly elected. And so Penny Wong has not wanted to

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Speaker 1: move from the Senate. She's quite happy being a Senator

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Speaker 1: for South Australia and has shown no inclination of moving

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Speaker 1: to the House where you know she would be a

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Speaker 1: potential for leadership. So that's one pretty big barrier she

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem to want it.

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Speaker 2: If we look over on the Liberal side, a lot

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Speaker 2: of women who we thought maybe could be potential leaders

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Speaker 2: in the future have now stepped away, like the Maurice

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Speaker 2: Paynes and Lynda Reynolds, and they've all been embroiled in

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Speaker 2: their own various issues through those years. So who have

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Speaker 2: we actually got left in the Liberal Party? And I

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Speaker 2: was asking some of my colleagues this the other day,

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Speaker 2: could you name a woman from the Liberal Party who

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Speaker 2: you would want to be leader? And no one could

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Speaker 2: give me even one name. Are there women who could, potentially,

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Speaker 2: even one day down the track, look to stepping into

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Speaker 2: those leadership shoes.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's another tough one.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Susan lay is the deputy leader, but there

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Speaker 1: is a snowballs chance of her actually becoming leader of

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Speaker 1: that party as it stands. There are a couple who

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Speaker 1: have been named you know, as future potential leaders when

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Speaker 1: talking about genderleist potential leaders, and that includes Zoe Macintosh,

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Speaker 1: who is a first term MP who is seen as

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the future leaders of the party.

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Speaker 1: But again that would require her to have the support

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Speaker 1: of the party room and at the moment that is

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Speaker 1: not going to change. There is no woman who is

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Speaker 1: going to get the support of the Liberal party room,

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Speaker 1: I would say for at least the next couple of

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Speaker 1: terms of parliament as leader. You also have the public

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Speaker 1: looking to Liberal women like Bridget Archer, who have consistently

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Speaker 1: stuck to their values and their morals, and what Bridget

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Speaker 1: Archer says is, you know, actual liberal beliefs. There is

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Speaker 1: absolutely no chance that Bridget will ever lead the Liberal Party.

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Speaker 1: She's not very popular for the very reason that makes

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Speaker 1: her so popular with the Australian public. So she doesn't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of friends in the party room. So

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Speaker 1: the Liberal Party has a lot of work to do

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Speaker 1: more so than even the Nationals when it comes to

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Speaker 1: raising female representation, and I truly do not see it happening.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say in my lifetime, just based on

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Speaker 1: the attitudes not just of those are in Parliament now,

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Speaker 1: but the branch members who select the future leaders for

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Speaker 1: the Liberal Party, there is zero appetite for change there.

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Speaker 2: Well, Amy, that paints a very bleak picture, doesn't.

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Speaker 1: It, But I think it is also worth remembering though,

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Speaker 1: that the only thing that ever shifts politicians is public attitudes.

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Speaker 1: And the more that voters start to demand diversity gender,

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Speaker 1: as well as from different multicultural backgrounds, you know, even

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Speaker 1: different economic backgrounds, that tends to be what shifts politicians

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Speaker 1: more than anything that's happening within their party room. They're

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Speaker 1: not going to do something that goes against their electoral chances,

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Speaker 1: and so if it's really important to people that women

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Speaker 1: are actually elevated into leadership positions, then you'll start to

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Speaker 1: see the political parties changing form.

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Speaker 2: Australian women in politics face what is known as the

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Speaker 2: glass cliff, brought in when there's a problem to be solved,

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Speaker 2: like Gillard was in twenty ten with falling support for

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Speaker 2: Kevin runt. She was paraded before her colleagues, desperate for

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Speaker 2: something to convince them they could win the next election,

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Speaker 2: and the first woman in the job seemed like a

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Speaker 2: winner for sure. Hopefully, next time, whether that be six

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Speaker 2: years or six hundred, the next woman to run this

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Speaker 2: country will be voted in by Australians who support her

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Speaker 2: policies and not because she's there to clean up someone's mess.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for tuning in today, taking some time to feed

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Speaker 2: your mind. If you want to join the conversation on

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Speaker 2: our socials, let us know who you think should be

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Speaker 2: the next woman to run the country. The Quikie is

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Speaker 2: produced by me Claire Murphy and I'll Senior producer Taylor Strano,

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Speaker 2: with audio production by Tom Lyon.