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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome out Louders friends to our Friday show.

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Speaker 1: It's what women are talking about on Friday, the seventeenth October.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I haven't reminded the out louders for

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Speaker 1: a while, although I know they know that on Fridays

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Speaker 1: we don't mess with the real world. We don't do news,

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Speaker 1: we don't do doom scrolls.

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Speaker 3: That's why I'm here on a Friday.

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Speaker 1: Why can we bring them on Friday? We want to

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Speaker 1: send you into the weekend with good vibes, something interesting

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Speaker 1: to think about, and of course recommendations. So who else

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Speaker 1: is with me here today?

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens. I don't know why I'm here for

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Speaker 3: the good.

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Speaker 1: Vibes, but I you're here to balance the groad.

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Speaker 3: We don't want to get me here here.

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Speaker 1: You're bringing a lot of vibes. You've got all these

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Speaker 1: people inside you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, did you know you have a little part

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Speaker 3: of his arms and six legs and maybe two penises?

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Speaker 1: Wow?

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Speaker 2: I like that.

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Speaker 3: I might not be getting a lot, but I have

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Speaker 3: two penises inside. Who's winning?

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Speaker 1: In case anyone is confused, Jesse Stevens is pregnant with twins.

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Speaker 3: And your advertisers of today's show are really upset.

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Speaker 2: And I'm m Burnham. I don't have any penises inside

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Speaker 2: me currently currently right now, I don't know if you

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Speaker 2: to our episode about what we.

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Speaker 1: Did yesterday, That's all I'm gonna say. Anyway, here's what

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Speaker 1: made our agenda for this Friday. Oh, friends, they're just

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Speaker 1: like family, aren't they. Well, apparently if you're treating your

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Speaker 1: friends like family, you're doing it wrong.

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Speaker 3: Plus, the bust tour you did through Europe in your

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Speaker 3: twenties is dead. Young people have been clear about what

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Speaker 3: they want and it is very different to the travel

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Speaker 3: of the.

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Speaker 2: Past and something to read, something to listen to, and

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Speaker 2: something to slap on your face.

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Speaker 3: It is our recommendations.

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Speaker 1: But first, chat fishing. It's a thing that's happening on

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Speaker 1: dating apps, as if the modern world wasn't making dating

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Speaker 1: hard enough? Am I right?

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Speaker 3: Correct?

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Speaker 1: I'm about to send this to you, my friend. Now

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Speaker 1: we're having to deal with the fact that all that

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Speaker 1: chatty banter you might be having with that person you

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Speaker 1: matched with is really just you talking to a robot.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what chat fishing is? And have you

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Speaker 1: encountered it?

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Speaker 2: I do know what chat fishing is. I'm annoyed that

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Speaker 2: I wasn't the person who came up with our time

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Speaker 2: because it's so good, I know, So what is it?

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Speaker 2: So it's basically where people on dating apps are now

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Speaker 2: using AI so like chatchpt to kind of have the

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Speaker 2: conversation for their dates.

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Speaker 1: So when you match, you usually do a bit of

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Speaker 1: back and forth right on the ass, like I'm going

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Speaker 1: to make sure we're all normal, a friendly banter, Oh

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Speaker 1: how are you? How are you?

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Speaker 2: And they're getting the chatgypt to go.

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Speaker 3: How are you? How are you? Have you ever used

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Speaker 3: chat jipyte as a little bit of a prompt for

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Speaker 3: like a what questions should I ask? How should I respond?

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Speaker 3: Does this make me look normal?

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Speaker 2: You absolutely know I have, well, not really in the

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Speaker 2: actual initial dating stages. I feel like I'm quite a

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Speaker 2: good speaker and I actually have a conversation with someone.

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Speaker 2: But I think I talked about in the podcast, I've

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Speaker 2: used chat gbt's services when things are going a bit m.

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Speaker 1: Is this guy ghosting me? You did once ask the

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Speaker 1: robot that.

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Speaker 3: And do you know if the robots can help with sexting,

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Speaker 3: because I've been in situations in the past where I've

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Speaker 3: gone I'd like to send a sext, but I don't

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Speaker 3: know how, Like I don't know what words to you, I.

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Speaker 1: Don't know how. I don't think she is doing I

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Speaker 1: can teach you, so can I. We'll get to Jesse's

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Speaker 1: sexual problems in the moment. But the example that I

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Speaker 1: saw in this article I read is that a woman

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Speaker 1: had been having really good banter with a guy that

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Speaker 1: she wanted to meet. He'd been quite emotionally intelligent and

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Speaker 1: like talking about attachment styles, and they've been having a

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Speaker 1: proper life exchange. And then she goes to the pub

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Speaker 1: to meet him for that in real life date and

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Speaker 1: the guy can barely streng it well, not that, but

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Speaker 1: the chemistry is not there. He's not the guy talks

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Speaker 1: about attachment styles. The banter is gone, and she realizes, oh,

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Speaker 1: he was asking chat GPT for like good banter.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but she also slept with him, and she felt

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Speaker 3: as though she slept with him on the basis of

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Speaker 3: their banter and just put his personality down to nerves

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Speaker 3: and then kind of went, oh, no, I've been completely

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Speaker 3: like essentially catfish.

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Speaker 2: She went on a second date and she's like, this

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Speaker 2: is definitely I've been chatfish. But I also wanted to

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Speaker 2: read out the message she received, like the first, the

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Speaker 2: very first message she got from this man. It said,

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Speaker 2: I've been reading a bit about attachment styles lately. It's

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Speaker 2: helped me to understand myself better, DASH and the type

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Speaker 2: of partner I would be looking for. Have you ever

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Speaker 2: looked at yours? Do you know what your attachment style is?

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Speaker 3: Would you hope?

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Speaker 1: Are you saying I.

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Speaker 2: Am blocking that man because he just used chat GBT

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Speaker 2: to ask me a question?

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Speaker 1: And what was your tell?

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Speaker 2: Okay, firstly, men talking about attachment styles, you don't know,

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Speaker 2: you don't know the dash is a big tael And

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Speaker 2: also two questions instead of one or zero questions.

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Speaker 3: Ah, that's clearly a robot.

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Speaker 1: Is there any thing in doing about a guy maybe

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Speaker 1: using chat GPT to help improve his banter?

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Speaker 2: I would think so trying the fact that you really

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Speaker 2: want to try and you really want to sleep with me.

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Speaker 3: But there was a man in the article who said,

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Speaker 3: I want to start a conversation that feels meaningful from

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Speaker 3: the beginning, so I can hook the other person in

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Speaker 3: which sounds quite like fine, but also I don't want

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Speaker 3: to spend too much time on it, and I'm like,

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Speaker 3: that's so ugly the problem.

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Speaker 1: You know, it shows tail as old as time, right,

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Speaker 1: because there's a very famous play from you oldie times

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Speaker 1: called Serrano de Burgrak, which was turned into a classic

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Speaker 1: eighties comedy with Steve Martin and Darrel Hannah. And what

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Speaker 1: that's about is a guy who's like not articulate, but

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Speaker 1: he's really hot. Woman really likes him, and so hot

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Speaker 1: guy gets nerdy guy to write all the love letters.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this is a plot and lots of

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Speaker 1: rom coms, and so hot guy gets nerdy guy to

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Speaker 1: write all the love letters. She falls in love with

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Speaker 1: the love letters, but when she gets together with the guy,

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Speaker 1: he's just like monosyllabic. This has been around a long time,

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Speaker 1: but now it's back with an AI twitch.

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Speaker 2: Except in that scenario we have the option to fall

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Speaker 2: in love with the nerdy guy, because.

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Speaker 1: That's what happens in the rom com.

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Speaker 3: We can't fall in love with chat GBT.

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Speaker 2: I mean, some of us are, but I've had a

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Speaker 2: lot of men use chat GBT in messaging me, except

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Speaker 2: they're a bit not good at it. So one time

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Speaker 2: I had this guy, I had something in my profile

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Speaker 2: that said, how I don't like Jim martiniz I know

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Speaker 2: you love a Jim Martini hole. And I got a

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Speaker 2: message on this going saying, hey, am lovely to match

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Speaker 2: with you. I have to admit I really like Jim

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Speaker 2: Martini's That whole message was in quodes.

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Speaker 1: Oh, so do you think that he put your profile

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Speaker 1: into chattipt the prom but what's the good firstach to

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Speaker 1: this girl?

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Speaker 2: And it probably gave him like three options options and

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Speaker 2: you just copied and paste with the quote marks.

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Speaker 1: Maybe though, you know, like the woman who wrote this article,

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Speaker 1: maybe you could have sex with the real guy and

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Speaker 1: then all your relationship yeh, could be conducted over text

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Speaker 1: with his better robot self and that could be quite satisfying.

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Speaker 3: It's like the movie Herb with work in Phoenix in

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Speaker 3: it art. The bus tour you did through Europe in

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Speaker 3: your twenties is dead, and I feel very sad. Now

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Speaker 3: who here did one of these tours? Holly Well?

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Speaker 1: I did not, because English people don't do them, no,

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Speaker 1: but I am adjacent to them because one of my

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Speaker 1: first jobs I worked for and why I ended up

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Speaker 1: in Australia. I worked for this magazine in London that

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Speaker 1: was like a free magazine for Aussie's and Kiwi travelers,

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Speaker 1: and that was a massive thing. This is like before

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Speaker 1: the internet really, and Kintiki and top Deck were our

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Speaker 1: biggest advertisers and that was the thing for all the

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Speaker 1: assi's and kiwis to do. And proper travelers in inverted

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Speaker 1: commas were a bit snooty about them, but everybody knew

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Speaker 1: that Kentiki was a good time.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So I have done one Kentucky tour, which I

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Speaker 3: did probably like twenty four or something, and I did

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Speaker 3: a Greek island hopping thing. It was about fourteen days.

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Speaker 3: And then I did a top Deck tour six weeks,

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Speaker 3: six weeks, nineteen countries camping. No, you did, I did

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Speaker 3: when I was nineteen.

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Speaker 1: That is a big commitment. That's a long time. What

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Speaker 1: if you hate everyone?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that was I reckon. There were forty peoples.

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Speaker 1: Give me a time scale of how long ago this was.

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Speaker 1: Because the thing that when I was reading all this,

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Speaker 1: obviously it's not my world anymore, and I was kind

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Speaker 1: of like, oh, I didn't know those things still existed,

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Speaker 1: but they've been popular for really.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that would have been about thirteen years ago.

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Speaker 3: And I had never been overseas, finished school, and when

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Speaker 3: all I want is to go overseas and I want

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Speaker 3: to see the world like I have never experienced it.

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Speaker 3: And so you just raw dog nineteen countries and I

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Speaker 3: just did nineteen countries, camped in Paris, camped all over

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Speaker 3: the place. Let's go to Poland for a day, like.

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Speaker 1: This is early naughties and if this is you.

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Speaker 3: So would have been like, let's go twenty nineteen. Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: of course twenty nineteen. I mean two thousand and.

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Speaker 1: Nine, so late naughties. Sorry, neither of us can do math.

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Speaker 1: You're obviously younger. Again, do you and your mates do

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Speaker 1: Kenticky tours?

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Speaker 2: A few of my friends in high school went on Kenticky.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't allowed.

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Speaker 1: When you launched an adult, you do your own thing.

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Speaker 2: Because they were they were like, no, no, no, I'm misunderstanding.

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Speaker 2: You were misunderstanding. I still cannot do things without my charge.

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Speaker 2: Twenty nine years old, I was around like seventeen turning eighteen,

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Speaker 2: which was like ideal time because I would have been eighteen.

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Speaker 3: In Europe, I wasn't allowed because we were just hearing

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Speaker 3: of all these stories like it was a bit of fun, right,

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Speaker 3: but I can understand hesitation from parents.

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Speaker 1: And over that many days that you did it, there

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Speaker 1: would be whole relationships and break.

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Speaker 3: There was someone who's married at the beginning and wasn't

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Speaker 3: it Oh it was anyway?

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Speaker 1: Tell me why? It was a bit of about them.

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Speaker 3: So they are of course youth focus travel tours. They

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Speaker 3: are popular in Europe, Asia, the US, Canada, and they

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Speaker 3: are known for kating literally forty people ages eighteen to

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Speaker 3: thirty nine was generally the vibe until recently.

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Speaker 1: There wouldn't have been anyone who was thirty four on

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Speaker 1: that trip.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to no one married women. But the married

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Speaker 3: woman was thirty four? Why wasn't her husband there? And

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Speaker 3: she was getting with the boy from Manchester? I was nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the only very savvy young Englishman do this.

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Speaker 1: Because I was looking at the stats and Kentiki's about

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Speaker 1: eighteen to ninety percent Aussies, right, So if you're a

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Speaker 1: young hot mank union.

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Speaker 3: Oh they had a great time.

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Speaker 2: Is there an Australian version where there's like a bus

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Speaker 2: full of like English boys?

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Speaker 3: And then I can just.

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Speaker 1: Yes, they're definitely in that world too, and there are

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Speaker 1: lots of backpacker trips. I don't wuldn't know what they

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Speaker 1: were anymore, but they are. Yeah, they're definitely is the equivalent.

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Speaker 3: So they go through multiple cities or countries, and the

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Speaker 3: appeal really is that it's cheaper than you'd do it individually,

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Speaker 3: and for many Austria as they're a rite of passage.

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Speaker 3: But in an article that was published in the Sydney

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Speaker 3: Morning Herald last week, it alerted us to the end

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Speaker 3: of an era because ben groundwater rides. I worked on

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Speaker 3: those boozy europe coach tours. I'm sad to see them go.

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Speaker 3: And they haven't gone out of business, but this thing

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Speaker 3: of having a fifty passenger coach that goes around like

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Speaker 3: a big bus, like a big bus done. We're done

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Speaker 3: with the bus. He writes that the camping tour has

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Speaker 3: effectively been dead for years, which I didn't know. And

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Speaker 3: it's all about small group journeys. So maximum eighteen passengers.

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Speaker 3: Top deck has lowered their maximum age. Eighteen year olds

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Speaker 3: don't want to be with thirty nine year olds anymore.

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Speaker 3: Thirty two is in mass. I've aged out, You've nearly half,

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Speaker 3: and the tour is generally.

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Speaker 1: Spreading out of time.

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Speaker 3: You have to tell your mom, I'm sorry mom, And

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Speaker 3: now they spend longer in each location. So this has

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Speaker 3: all been driven by jen Z being clear about what

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Speaker 3: they want. They do not want a boozy Europe trip.

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Speaker 3: They'll say, I'll have a glass of why not too,

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Speaker 3: But I don't want to get drunk in Croatia. Oh

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Speaker 3: come on. Part of the Kentique offering is now Sunrise

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Speaker 3: yoga and morning run clubs that did not happen when

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Speaker 3: I was there.

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Speaker 1: This what worries me about this Jesse is that small

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Speaker 1: group tours are really big for older people and older

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Speaker 1: women right Like, I've been on them. They're fantastic. I've

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Speaker 1: been on someone with the family and they're all about

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Speaker 1: Sunrise yoga and rum clubs, and it's like, why are

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Speaker 1: the young people doing the same things as the old people.

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Speaker 1: I know?

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Speaker 3: Well, this is interesting because it proves your point. Gen

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Speaker 3: Z is also all about food. So none of this

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Speaker 3: to a cook where he makes you a burger and

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Speaker 3: you sit on your fold out camp chair in rows,

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Speaker 3: is that what you were doing? Yes, they want to

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Speaker 3: eat locally, so they want more freedom and they also

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Speaker 3: want to sort out their own itineraries. Because TikTok has

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Speaker 3: already told them where they want to go. They don't

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Speaker 3: need their guide to tell them where they go.

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Speaker 1: The research is a lot easier than it was back

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Speaker 1: in your day.

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Speaker 3: And when I went, I went, I want to go

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Speaker 3: to the Louver and that Eiffel Tower thing and blah

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Speaker 3: blah blah, because I've seen it in my lonely planet.

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Speaker 3: Now they want to go to a vintage shop that

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Speaker 3: they saw and a cafe, and it's not as kind

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Speaker 3: of mainstream as my thing would have been.

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Speaker 1: Like I was talking about how when I was lucky

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Speaker 1: enough to go to Europe this summer with my family,

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Speaker 1: and the main characterness of the instagrammers everywhere was very apparent.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of this, right, Yes, Like you want to

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Speaker 1: find your place to get your perfect pictures and find

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Speaker 1: your experiences that you've all seen online. You don't want

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Speaker 1: to necessarily have the tour guide guy going We're all

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Speaker 1: going to my mate Dave's cafe.

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Speaker 3: No, exactly right.

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Speaker 1: It's like no one wants to take a picture of

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Speaker 1: Dave's croissant.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 3: And they also don't want to have their days all

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Speaker 3: organized where we do this, this, and this. They want

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Speaker 3: more freedom. There are some real upsides to this. But

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Speaker 3: what do you think is lost with this kind of

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Speaker 3: evolution within youth travel.

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Speaker 2: I think the best thing about traveling when you're younger

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Speaker 2: is that you have stories to tell when you're older.

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Speaker 2: And I feel like they're not going to have any

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Speaker 2: fun stories to tell.

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Speaker 3: I've got something in their vintage shop, No, but they're

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Speaker 3: not going to be.

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Speaker 2: If they get arrested in the vintage shop, then yes,

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Speaker 2: I'm all on board, because that's a good story. But

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Speaker 2: if you're just doing like the this is how I

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Speaker 2: traveled when I was younger. I was only able to

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Speaker 2: do like the safe types of travel, and I didn't

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Speaker 2: get to really like be a rebel, and I didn't

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Speaker 2: get to like sleep with men. I didn't get to

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Speaker 2: get drunk. And why you'm making up for I haven't

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Speaker 2: los cannon right now, but like I actually never when

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Speaker 2: I was traveling when I was younger, Like even when

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Speaker 2: I was twenty one, I just never drank ever because

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Speaker 2: I was so scared, because I was just told it

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Speaker 2: was really scary and dangerous and dangerous, and even like

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Speaker 2: it said in the Peace that they all started in London,

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Speaker 2: because like London was like English speaking and safe before

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Speaker 2: you just went into.

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Speaker 3: You couldn't land in France, Oh oh my god, what

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Speaker 3: would you do? Too exotic? They don't even speak English,

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Speaker 3: which reminded me that travel has become so much easier

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Speaker 3: with maps and with translators on our phone. It just

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Speaker 3: means that that thing of being scared in a foreign

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Speaker 3: city went on and speaks the language you speak is

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Speaker 3: less of an issue.

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Speaker 1: I saw in this piece that an area that is

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Speaker 1: a growth area for these guys, though, is that older market.

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Speaker 1: And they're marketing them as reunion tours, so they're like

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Speaker 1: thirty five to forty.

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Speaker 3: Five trip, let's do it again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you don't have to have been on the

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Speaker 1: tour before, but it's like, let's relive our youth. And

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Speaker 1: because of this was my world for quite a long time,

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Speaker 1: I worked in a backpack of travel journalism and stuff.

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Speaker 1: There's a certain kind of middle aged man now that

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Speaker 1: I know, and I mean Brent's a bit adjacent to this,

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Speaker 1: as much as I love him, like, most of his

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Speaker 1: conversation with his mates is still reminiscing about those adventures

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Speaker 1: that you were talking about. You know how you were saying,

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Speaker 1: you need the stories for when you're older. They still

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Speaker 1: spend a lot, and he was more of a Kombi

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Speaker 1: Van guy, you know, but the coombe Van guys and

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Speaker 1: girls are still dining out on those stories, like thirty

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Speaker 1: years later. And so I think if there was the

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Speaker 1: reunion tour, it's kind of like everybody going to see

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Speaker 1: Oasis and getting hammered, you know, or going to see

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Speaker 1: Take That and women taking their clothes off even though

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Speaker 1: they've got four teenagers at home. No shade. But it's

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Speaker 1: like this idea of very much reliving that part of you.

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Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting because we're always seeing these

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Speaker 1: stats about how gen Z drink less are generally more

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Speaker 1: sensible and aren't having as much sex.

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Speaker 3: It was just a bit messy. Yeah, like fifteen years ago.

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Speaker 1: I think they are much tighter regulations, which is a

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Speaker 1: good thing. Yeah, it's definitely a good thing. But I

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Speaker 1: had a quick look at the social media pages for

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Speaker 1: some of these brands. Now if you go and look

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Speaker 1: at the instagrams, Now, there are lots of gorgeous hot girls,

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Speaker 1: you know, at various sites, but it's much more sanitized.

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Speaker 1: And I just think that that's probably a good thing.

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Speaker 1: But then I was thinking about it. I've got a

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Speaker 1: daughter who is heading you know, she's in a few years,

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Speaker 1: she'll be and I really want her to go and

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Speaker 1: travel when she's eighteen, like I really do. I think

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Speaker 1: Brent and I are both people who did a lot

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Speaker 1: of that when we were young, but I would probably

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Speaker 1: encourage her to do it on her own with a

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Speaker 1: mate for the reasons that Jess's just pointed out. You

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Speaker 1: can your phone tells you everything you go over, which.

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Speaker 2: Is exactly what I did. I went traveling with my

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Speaker 2: cousin and it was amazing. But I think because you're

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Speaker 2: put into an environment where you both have to fend

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Speaker 2: for yourselves at such a young age before you infend

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Speaker 2: for yourselves at home, you just automatically become more aware

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Speaker 2: of everything. Like you don't drink, you don't want to

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Speaker 2: go out, but like in the environment where you're just

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Speaker 2: following a schedule that everyone's doing and then you're just

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Speaker 2: jumping on and off of bus, you have like freedom

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Speaker 2: to do as much as you want. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: In defense of the tour, though, I think that there's

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Speaker 3: an intensity to traveling one on one with someone that

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Speaker 3: is diluted when there are other people around and when

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Speaker 3: you can meet them and hang out for relationships, for siblings,

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Speaker 3: for friends.

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Speaker 1: Did you go by yourself?

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Speaker 3: No, I went with a boyfriend when I was nineteen.

395
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Speaker 3: I went with Claire the other time, right, And that

396
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Speaker 3: was I think really good for both relationships because it

397
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Speaker 3: was fun to meet new people. I still am connected

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Speaker 3: with with a bunch of them. And I also think

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Speaker 3: that the value of a brilliant tour guide. There are

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Speaker 3: things that I was told by that guide in Paris

401
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Speaker 3: that I still remember that I will never read anywhere

402
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Speaker 3: on the internet that she just happened to know. And

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Speaker 3: I remember when I was in Tuscany a few years back,

404
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Speaker 3: TikTok organized our holiday and we turned up at these

405
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Speaker 3: hot springs. They were revolting, like TikTok lied. And that's

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Speaker 3: the thing is that TikTok can make something look beautiful

407
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Speaker 3: and then you give yourself a three sixty and go,

408
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Speaker 3: this isn't where I want to go. Like, there is

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Speaker 3: something about verified travel experts telling you where to go,

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Speaker 3: people who spend a lot of time there rather than

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Speaker 3: someone who just wanted a photo in a hot tub.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's invaluable I think to your point too, about

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Speaker 1: if there's a place where you're a bit too young

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Speaker 1: and a bit too green, if anything, to really be

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Speaker 1: excited about being out in the world. I remember we

416
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Speaker 1: used to go and do these questionnaires with backpackers. Wee

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Speaker 1: go and find a backpacker at Sydney Central or whatever

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Speaker 1: and be like, what's the hardest thing about traveling on

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Speaker 1: your own in Australia And they'd say doing my own washing, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because they've never lived at it like a backpack full

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Speaker 1: of two minute noodles. And you're just like, maybe you

422
00:19:15,462 --> 00:19:18,141
Speaker 1: need to live a little before you spread your wings

423
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Speaker 1: out louders in a moment, should you really treat your

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Speaker 1: friends like family?

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Speaker 3: We have a listener dilemma and we need your collective

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Speaker 3: wisdom to help us and our partners UI solve it. Please,

427
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Speaker 3: here is the problem from our listener. I need some

428
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Speaker 3: perspective on a wedding dilemma that's left me feeling totally flat.

429
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Speaker 3: My friend, who I met when our sons became primary

430
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Speaker 3: school friends and who are still best mates, is getting married.

431
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Speaker 3: When she called to tell me she was sending a

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Speaker 3: wedding invitation, I was thrilled and pictured our shared table

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Speaker 3: with all our friends. I recently got back with my

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Speaker 3: partner after a couple of years apart, who she never

435
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Speaker 3: really hit it off with, and when I opened the

436
00:20:04,742 --> 00:20:07,302
Speaker 3: wedding invite, I noticed only my name was on it.

437
00:20:07,861 --> 00:20:10,221
Speaker 3: My friend mentioned she had strict numbers and no plus

438
00:20:10,262 --> 00:20:13,502
Speaker 3: ones because of catering costs, and I was okay with

439
00:20:13,542 --> 00:20:16,222
Speaker 3: that until I discovered I was the only person invited

440
00:20:16,222 --> 00:20:20,181
Speaker 3: from our entire friend group. The reception is cocktail style,

441
00:20:20,222 --> 00:20:22,982
Speaker 3: and all I can picture is myself standing alone, desperately

442
00:20:22,982 --> 00:20:25,461
Speaker 3: scanning the room, trying to find someone I know, and

443
00:20:25,542 --> 00:20:28,341
Speaker 3: just wishing my partner or at least one familiar friend

444
00:20:28,422 --> 00:20:30,502
Speaker 3: was with me. I can't shake the feeling that my

445
00:20:30,542 --> 00:20:33,341
Speaker 3: friend is sending a message by leaving my partner and

446
00:20:33,381 --> 00:20:36,421
Speaker 3: everyone else behind. I know I should feel honored to

447
00:20:36,422 --> 00:20:39,302
Speaker 3: be the chosen one, but instead I feel anxious and abandoned.

448
00:20:39,782 --> 00:20:42,022
Speaker 3: Am I being a spoiled sook for not wanting to

449
00:20:42,061 --> 00:20:45,421
Speaker 3: go to her wedding alone? The question is what do

450
00:20:45,502 --> 00:20:46,222
Speaker 3: you do next?

451
00:20:46,982 --> 00:20:50,222
Speaker 2: I think it comes to the wedding day. You drink

452
00:20:50,222 --> 00:20:52,542
Speaker 2: as much champagne as you can and you just have

453
00:20:52,621 --> 00:20:53,502
Speaker 2: a good old time.

454
00:20:53,702 --> 00:20:56,222
Speaker 3: I'm with you, M with you one hundred percent.

455
00:20:56,302 --> 00:20:59,542
Speaker 1: I'm with you too. To be harsh, the wedding isn't

456
00:20:59,542 --> 00:21:00,422
Speaker 1: about you, dull.

457
00:21:00,782 --> 00:21:04,222
Speaker 3: We have to jamaima kirk there. Yeah, yeah, thinking about

458
00:21:04,222 --> 00:21:06,461
Speaker 3: yourself too much? Yeah, I reckon that you are going

459
00:21:06,542 --> 00:21:10,061
Speaker 3: to have a great time. I have absolutely done wedding solo.

460
00:21:10,661 --> 00:21:12,581
Speaker 3: I totally get why she didn't invite your partner. I

461
00:21:12,581 --> 00:21:15,901
Speaker 3: don't think it's anything personal. It's just a plus one's

462
00:21:16,022 --> 00:21:20,021
Speaker 3: numbers issue, and I reckon like it sometimes it's a blessing.

463
00:21:20,061 --> 00:21:21,581
Speaker 3: Do not have anyone you know there? You get to

464
00:21:21,581 --> 00:21:24,022
Speaker 3: know other people and she'll make sure she seats you

465
00:21:24,262 --> 00:21:26,302
Speaker 3: around interesting people and it'll be great.

466
00:21:26,661 --> 00:21:29,222
Speaker 1: And also it's one afternoon, you know what I mean.

467
00:21:30,022 --> 00:21:32,702
Speaker 1: I get it, even if it is awkward, and even

468
00:21:32,742 --> 00:21:35,221
Speaker 1: if you don't love it, it's a few hours of

469
00:21:35,262 --> 00:21:38,302
Speaker 1: your life. Go home early like you're there to support

470
00:21:38,302 --> 00:21:40,502
Speaker 1: your mate. I'm sorry, friend, I think that's what you

471
00:21:40,502 --> 00:21:40,901
Speaker 1: should do.

472
00:21:41,262 --> 00:21:43,702
Speaker 3: Out loud is what would you do next? Share your

473
00:21:43,742 --> 00:21:46,662
Speaker 3: thoughts in the mummea out loud Facebook group. Also, if

474
00:21:46,661 --> 00:21:49,101
Speaker 3: you have a dilemma, send it to us at out

475
00:21:49,101 --> 00:21:52,022
Speaker 3: loud at momamea dot com dot a you. We would

476
00:21:52,022 --> 00:21:52,462
Speaker 3: love to.

477
00:21:52,422 --> 00:21:56,022
Speaker 1: Help you, we need to talk about the word family,

478
00:21:56,262 --> 00:21:59,581
Speaker 1: as in who is, who isn't, and what the difference

479
00:21:59,621 --> 00:22:02,422
Speaker 1: is between people who are family and the people who

480
00:22:02,422 --> 00:22:06,901
Speaker 1: are not. Are your friends, for example, your family is

481
00:22:06,942 --> 00:22:10,901
Speaker 1: your workplace one big family. And if that's all true,

482
00:22:11,462 --> 00:22:14,061
Speaker 1: is it a positive thing? First of all, I want

483
00:22:14,061 --> 00:22:16,981
Speaker 1: to ask you too, do you consider some of your

484
00:22:16,982 --> 00:22:18,021
Speaker 1: friends to be family?

485
00:22:18,502 --> 00:22:18,662
Speaker 4: No?

486
00:22:19,182 --> 00:22:22,581
Speaker 3: Really, no, I wish I did not one friend my

487
00:22:22,581 --> 00:22:24,542
Speaker 3: friends or my friends and my family is my family.

488
00:22:24,621 --> 00:22:27,262
Speaker 1: Well, as we're about to discuss Jesse, that might be very,

489
00:22:27,581 --> 00:22:28,221
Speaker 1: very healthy.

490
00:22:28,262 --> 00:22:30,141
Speaker 3: But then Mayor was my friend and now she's my family.

491
00:22:30,141 --> 00:22:32,502
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you're it's very complicate your situation.

492
00:22:32,621 --> 00:22:34,741
Speaker 3: It sounds like you're just making your friends your family.

493
00:22:35,302 --> 00:22:37,022
Speaker 1: Your situation is quite a play.

494
00:22:37,182 --> 00:22:37,942
Speaker 3: How do I get in?

495
00:22:40,542 --> 00:22:44,662
Speaker 1: I trying to think of a complicated way. Yeahs yes,

496
00:22:44,702 --> 00:22:46,141
Speaker 1: it's definitely one of Jesse's brothers.

497
00:22:46,141 --> 00:22:47,022
Speaker 3: That's the way.

498
00:22:47,782 --> 00:22:52,542
Speaker 2: My friends are my family, I would say, so I

499
00:22:52,661 --> 00:22:54,222
Speaker 2: was not all of them. I feel like there's a

500
00:22:54,262 --> 00:22:58,021
Speaker 2: specific three maybe that I would consider family. But I

501
00:22:58,061 --> 00:23:00,101
Speaker 2: also don't know if they would consider me family.

502
00:23:00,621 --> 00:23:01,621
Speaker 3: I have to go both ways.

503
00:23:02,141 --> 00:23:04,262
Speaker 1: I think it probably does, But I want to talk

504
00:23:04,302 --> 00:23:07,022
Speaker 1: about what that means right, because the way that Jesse

505
00:23:07,182 --> 00:23:09,862
Speaker 1: just said, I wish I did. We all think that's

506
00:23:09,861 --> 00:23:11,621
Speaker 1: a really positive thing to say. I treat my friends

507
00:23:11,702 --> 00:23:14,101
Speaker 1: like family is a really positive thing. I definitely have

508
00:23:14,141 --> 00:23:16,182
Speaker 1: friends who a family. I think that also, the fact

509
00:23:16,182 --> 00:23:18,622
Speaker 1: that I live far from my family has meant at

510
00:23:18,661 --> 00:23:21,181
Speaker 1: times you build a family, you know, so I have,

511
00:23:21,542 --> 00:23:23,781
Speaker 1: particularly in Sydney, from the community where we had our

512
00:23:23,861 --> 00:23:27,101
Speaker 1: kids and stuff, we have like literally they call my

513
00:23:27,182 --> 00:23:30,102
Speaker 1: kids call am auntie and uncle like they are like family, right.

514
00:23:31,022 --> 00:23:33,381
Speaker 1: But we always say that as if it's a really

515
00:23:33,422 --> 00:23:36,141
Speaker 1: positive thing. And I recently read this substack that was

516
00:23:36,182 --> 00:23:39,341
Speaker 1: positing that you absolutely should not treat your friends like

517
00:23:39,422 --> 00:23:45,022
Speaker 1: family because family relationships, and obviously this is generalization, but

518
00:23:45,141 --> 00:23:49,181
Speaker 1: family relationships are often very boundaryless. You know, you expect,

519
00:23:49,182 --> 00:23:51,061
Speaker 1: for example, your family to do things for you that

520
00:23:51,101 --> 00:23:53,181
Speaker 1: you probably wouldn't ask a friend to do. You expect

521
00:23:53,182 --> 00:23:55,861
Speaker 1: them to put up with behavior from you that you

522
00:23:55,901 --> 00:23:58,901
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't expect a friend to. So if you were

523
00:23:58,942 --> 00:24:02,461
Speaker 1: really treating your friends like family, you might actually be

524
00:24:02,542 --> 00:24:07,861
Speaker 1: treating your friends quite badly. And I wondered, Jesse, if

525
00:24:07,942 --> 00:24:10,582
Speaker 1: you were thinking about it. Other things that you expect

526
00:24:10,581 --> 00:24:12,861
Speaker 1: from family that you just wouldn't expect from friends, like

527
00:24:13,462 --> 00:24:16,021
Speaker 1: from basic practical things like helping you move house at

528
00:24:16,022 --> 00:24:18,302
Speaker 1: the drop of a hat, to like putting up with

529
00:24:18,381 --> 00:24:22,061
Speaker 1: you being depressed about a breakup for a year. You

530
00:24:22,061 --> 00:24:24,222
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like, what do you think about that? Yeah?

531
00:24:24,462 --> 00:24:28,221
Speaker 3: I think that the implication with the word family is

532
00:24:28,302 --> 00:24:30,542
Speaker 3: and I know this is not true for everyone and

533
00:24:30,581 --> 00:24:33,341
Speaker 3: they're a complicated, strained family dynamics, But for me, is

534
00:24:33,381 --> 00:24:38,462
Speaker 3: the word unconditional. My family love me because I exist.

535
00:24:38,901 --> 00:24:41,862
Speaker 3: My friends don't love me because I exist. My friends

536
00:24:42,101 --> 00:24:45,502
Speaker 3: love me because of the way I show up, or

537
00:24:45,502 --> 00:24:48,462
Speaker 3: because of certain qualities, or because of I feel as though,

538
00:24:48,502 --> 00:24:50,421
Speaker 3: and I don't know if this is necessarily healthy, but

539
00:24:50,502 --> 00:24:55,101
Speaker 3: it's like, my friendships aren't unconditional. They are very much

540
00:24:55,302 --> 00:24:59,101
Speaker 3: like and I've experienced friendship falling out so someone moves

541
00:24:59,101 --> 00:25:01,061
Speaker 3: to the other side of the world, or things change,

542
00:25:01,101 --> 00:25:04,142
Speaker 3: priorities change, whatever. I think I'm a better person to.

543
00:25:04,101 --> 00:25:06,022
Speaker 1: My friends, yes, And that's the key to this.

544
00:25:06,302 --> 00:25:08,941
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's important is that you show

545
00:25:09,101 --> 00:25:13,061
Speaker 3: up and you go. Like I suppose within families, you

546
00:25:13,462 --> 00:25:16,222
Speaker 3: play a role. They have a vision of who they

547
00:25:16,222 --> 00:25:19,702
Speaker 3: want you to be. Whereas you get to be completely

548
00:25:19,782 --> 00:25:23,742
Speaker 3: yourself sometimes with your friends, and it's like We're going

549
00:25:23,782 --> 00:25:25,422
Speaker 3: out to have a good time, and I'm gonna ask

550
00:25:25,462 --> 00:25:27,861
Speaker 3: these questions and I'm gonna look after you, and I

551
00:25:27,901 --> 00:25:29,622
Speaker 3: don't know, I find them simpler.

552
00:25:29,621 --> 00:25:32,701
Speaker 1: And do you feel like in that there's like an

553
00:25:32,702 --> 00:25:35,061
Speaker 1: implicit expectation though, that for your friends you have to

554
00:25:35,101 --> 00:25:39,382
Speaker 1: perform like a better version of yourself, because I think

555
00:25:39,422 --> 00:25:41,861
Speaker 1: that maybe that's where the line goes, you know, like

556
00:25:42,022 --> 00:25:44,701
Speaker 1: I think that real deep friendships you don't have to

557
00:25:44,742 --> 00:25:47,621
Speaker 1: perform like I can go and I do have some

558
00:25:47,621 --> 00:25:49,461
Speaker 1: friends I can go and sit on their couch like

559
00:25:50,462 --> 00:25:52,941
Speaker 1: no makeup, tracking pants and just winge about life, you

560
00:25:52,942 --> 00:25:54,581
Speaker 1: know what I mean. And then you have some friends

561
00:25:54,581 --> 00:25:57,621
Speaker 1: who are very much like metaphorically not necessarily literally you

562
00:25:57,621 --> 00:25:59,702
Speaker 1: put your lipstick on for them, you know what I mean.

563
00:25:59,821 --> 00:26:02,061
Speaker 3: If you were having a big cry, who would you

564
00:26:02,101 --> 00:26:03,661
Speaker 3: call first? I know it's really hard because it's the

565
00:26:03,661 --> 00:26:05,381
Speaker 3: other side of the world and it's time difference. But

566
00:26:05,422 --> 00:26:07,061
Speaker 3: would you want to call your mum or would you

567
00:26:07,101 --> 00:26:07,982
Speaker 3: want to call your friend?

568
00:26:08,782 --> 00:26:09,262
Speaker 1: My friend?

569
00:26:09,661 --> 00:26:11,581
Speaker 3: Yeah, see, I'd call my mum or I'd call Claire.

570
00:26:11,621 --> 00:26:14,702
Speaker 3: I think I'd go I feel like that's shit I'm

571
00:26:14,702 --> 00:26:17,182
Speaker 3: going to put on my family because I know they've

572
00:26:17,182 --> 00:26:19,621
Speaker 3: got time for it, and I would think twice before

573
00:26:19,782 --> 00:26:23,101
Speaker 3: putting that on a friend. It's really interesting.

574
00:26:23,222 --> 00:26:26,141
Speaker 2: I kind of agree with you to an extent, but

575
00:26:26,381 --> 00:26:29,821
Speaker 2: like my closest friends here similar to you, whole have

576
00:26:30,141 --> 00:26:33,861
Speaker 2: family who are either overseas or interstate, and they're single

577
00:26:33,901 --> 00:26:35,061
Speaker 2: and they're here by themselves.

578
00:26:35,661 --> 00:26:36,502
Speaker 3: And it was.

579
00:26:36,462 --> 00:26:40,381
Speaker 2: Only recently where I realized the privilege I had of

580
00:26:40,422 --> 00:26:42,421
Speaker 2: being able to go to my parents or my sister

581
00:26:42,502 --> 00:26:45,461
Speaker 2: for things, and then I realized that I had to

582
00:26:45,502 --> 00:26:49,341
Speaker 2: be that person for them, like things like moving, things

583
00:26:49,381 --> 00:26:53,542
Speaker 2: like heartbreak. I think that's my responsibility, as being their

584
00:26:54,222 --> 00:26:57,542
Speaker 2: kind of family person in where they're living, to do

585
00:26:57,782 --> 00:27:01,382
Speaker 2: for them because they don't have anyone else, and I

586
00:27:01,422 --> 00:27:03,181
Speaker 2: sometimes don't do the same thing to them, and I

587
00:27:03,222 --> 00:27:05,061
Speaker 2: don't think they would expect that either, because I have

588
00:27:05,141 --> 00:27:05,862
Speaker 2: my family here.

589
00:27:06,262 --> 00:27:08,861
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I think that the friendships that are

590
00:27:08,901 --> 00:27:10,901
Speaker 1: like I don't think that your friends being like family

591
00:27:10,901 --> 00:27:13,861
Speaker 1: should be the benchmark for all friendships, but I think

592
00:27:13,942 --> 00:27:16,702
Speaker 1: that there are some friendships that drift that way. Because

593
00:27:16,702 --> 00:27:18,542
Speaker 1: we talk a lot about how friendships are often the

594
00:27:18,542 --> 00:27:21,701
Speaker 1: most important relationships are among the most important relationships of

595
00:27:21,782 --> 00:27:24,461
Speaker 1: your life, and so they can go through phases just

596
00:27:24,502 --> 00:27:27,581
Speaker 1: like any other relationship. Like I was listening to an

597
00:27:27,621 --> 00:27:31,061
Speaker 1: episode of Sentimental Garbage with Carolina Donahue and Dolly Alderton,

598
00:27:31,341 --> 00:27:33,461
Speaker 1: and they talked about how when they first got together

599
00:27:33,542 --> 00:27:36,421
Speaker 1: as friends, every friend date was intense and it was

600
00:27:36,462 --> 00:27:37,901
Speaker 1: carnage and they were going to be out till two

601
00:27:37,942 --> 00:27:39,861
Speaker 1: in the morning and it was amazing. But then they

602
00:27:39,942 --> 00:27:42,821
Speaker 1: knew that when they had moved into a new era

603
00:27:42,901 --> 00:27:44,742
Speaker 1: of friendship, it was when they could just go around

604
00:27:44,782 --> 00:27:46,542
Speaker 1: and have take away pizza and be home by tent,

605
00:27:46,621 --> 00:27:48,341
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like, so it's like, I

606
00:27:48,381 --> 00:27:52,661
Speaker 1: think that the friends who become like family, they've moved

607
00:27:52,821 --> 00:27:54,941
Speaker 1: through that expectation phase.

608
00:27:55,101 --> 00:27:58,262
Speaker 2: But you don't think that all like close friends should

609
00:27:58,661 --> 00:28:00,821
Speaker 2: go through that process because we do it for partners.

610
00:28:01,262 --> 00:28:04,062
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think there's some beauty to having relationships

611
00:28:04,061 --> 00:28:06,182
Speaker 1: that are still important to you but do have quite

612
00:28:06,262 --> 00:28:09,901
Speaker 1: firm boundaries around them. Yeah, Like, when I interview women

613
00:28:09,901 --> 00:28:12,381
Speaker 1: who are older about their lives, they'll often say that

614
00:28:12,422 --> 00:28:15,661
Speaker 1: their friendships have morphed into you know, it will be

615
00:28:15,782 --> 00:28:18,581
Speaker 1: their girlfriends who sit beside them at their parents' funerals,

616
00:28:18,702 --> 00:28:22,821
Speaker 1: you know, who help them through those most difficult pots. Yeah,

617
00:28:22,861 --> 00:28:26,821
Speaker 1: and those kind of friendships are definitely family, I think.

618
00:28:27,621 --> 00:28:30,421
Speaker 1: But the thing that's interesting is that we hold that

619
00:28:30,542 --> 00:28:33,542
Speaker 1: family thing up as if it is the pinnacle, whereas

620
00:28:33,661 --> 00:28:36,461
Speaker 1: very often it's actually the sort of dysfunctional mess. Like,

621
00:28:36,782 --> 00:28:38,702
Speaker 1: as you say, Jesse, you can yell at your sister.

622
00:28:38,742 --> 00:28:40,502
Speaker 1: I'm not saying you do. I'm sure you never yell

623
00:28:40,502 --> 00:28:42,862
Speaker 1: at Claire ever, but like you can yell at her

624
00:28:42,982 --> 00:28:45,182
Speaker 1: or tell things about herself that she doesn't want to hear,

625
00:28:45,382 --> 00:28:47,422
Speaker 1: or put the knife in in a way just because

626
00:28:47,422 --> 00:28:49,342
Speaker 1: you're in a bad mood. You know, if you do

627
00:28:49,422 --> 00:28:52,502
Speaker 1: that with a girlfriend too many times, Yeah, she's.

628
00:28:52,262 --> 00:28:55,822
Speaker 3: Got family dynamics bring you enormous joy, but they also

629
00:28:55,862 --> 00:28:59,302
Speaker 3: inevitably bring you pain, right and whether that's that they're

630
00:28:59,422 --> 00:29:02,582
Speaker 3: irritating you, that they are just like triggering something in you.

631
00:29:03,022 --> 00:29:05,701
Speaker 3: My friendships at this stage in my life do not

632
00:29:05,702 --> 00:29:08,902
Speaker 3: bring me pain like any pain. They are just joy.

633
00:29:09,302 --> 00:29:11,382
Speaker 3: And it's not to say that serious things don't happen

634
00:29:11,422 --> 00:29:15,382
Speaker 3: in our lives, but we don't hurt each other maybe

635
00:29:15,422 --> 00:29:18,302
Speaker 3: in the same way. So there's a real simplicity to

636
00:29:18,342 --> 00:29:20,422
Speaker 3: my friendships that I value.

637
00:29:20,502 --> 00:29:22,862
Speaker 1: I want to bring it into the workplace quickly, because

638
00:29:23,982 --> 00:29:26,941
Speaker 1: for a while there it was really fashionable for workplaces

639
00:29:26,942 --> 00:29:29,342
Speaker 1: and businesses to say we're just like a big family,

640
00:29:29,422 --> 00:29:32,982
Speaker 1: or literally say welcome to the Coca Cola family. You

641
00:29:33,022 --> 00:29:34,862
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're part of

642
00:29:34,902 --> 00:29:38,262
Speaker 1: that family now, and to use family as a positive

643
00:29:38,302 --> 00:29:41,902
Speaker 1: word in workplaces. But in recent times it's very much

644
00:29:41,942 --> 00:29:44,181
Speaker 1: been recast as being a red flag, Like if a

645
00:29:44,302 --> 00:29:48,542
Speaker 1: workplaces keeps telling you that their family, does that again

646
00:29:48,742 --> 00:29:51,702
Speaker 1: imply all those boundaryless things that we were just talking about.

647
00:29:51,742 --> 00:29:52,502
Speaker 1: And again, this is.

648
00:29:52,462 --> 00:29:56,142
Speaker 4: A weird situation to discuss it because Jesse's literally family,

649
00:29:57,262 --> 00:30:00,022
Speaker 4: but in an ordinary kind of workplace, if they keep

650
00:30:00,262 --> 00:30:03,622
Speaker 4: I've heard it said for example like often hospitality workplaces

651
00:30:03,702 --> 00:30:06,582
Speaker 4: might be like families, or you know, any kind of intense,

652
00:30:06,661 --> 00:30:10,262
Speaker 4: high pressure situation, but that can often mean boundaries across

653
00:30:10,382 --> 00:30:11,782
Speaker 4: expectations are too high.

654
00:30:11,942 --> 00:30:13,661
Speaker 1: Like what do you think do you think it's suspicious

655
00:30:13,661 --> 00:30:15,421
Speaker 1: if your boss you're telling you your family.

656
00:30:15,462 --> 00:30:17,902
Speaker 3: I think it's a way of saying your mother and

657
00:30:18,102 --> 00:30:22,741
Speaker 3: this connection and your loyalty to this business ought to

658
00:30:22,742 --> 00:30:25,302
Speaker 3: be unconditional. I think that's what you're saying whether it's

659
00:30:25,382 --> 00:30:29,342
Speaker 3: the hours or the expectations, or the way this person

660
00:30:29,422 --> 00:30:31,622
Speaker 3: treats you, or what your manager asks of you. I

661
00:30:31,661 --> 00:30:33,902
Speaker 3: think it's saying you ought to stay. And I've you know,

662
00:30:33,982 --> 00:30:35,622
Speaker 3: worked behind a bar where it was kind of like

663
00:30:35,661 --> 00:30:37,822
Speaker 3: we're all a family, and then when I start working there,

664
00:30:37,822 --> 00:30:39,222
Speaker 3: it was not like we're all a family. We just

665
00:30:39,302 --> 00:30:41,462
Speaker 3: all went our separate ways and we never really talked again.

666
00:30:41,782 --> 00:30:43,942
Speaker 3: Like it's just simply not like a family.

667
00:30:44,022 --> 00:30:46,382
Speaker 2: Also, don't say I'm your family and then like I

668
00:30:46,502 --> 00:30:48,982
Speaker 2: mess up and then you fire me, Like you can't.

669
00:30:48,782 --> 00:30:50,302
Speaker 3: Do that exactly.

670
00:30:50,422 --> 00:30:52,742
Speaker 2: I think it's a huge red flags when workplaces say

671
00:30:52,822 --> 00:30:53,502
Speaker 2: you're a family.

672
00:30:53,582 --> 00:30:56,222
Speaker 3: But also I feel like when you're a young.

673
00:30:56,022 --> 00:30:59,382
Speaker 2: Worker, there's something about like an external being saying we're

674
00:30:59,422 --> 00:31:01,222
Speaker 2: all family, where you're like, yeah, yeah.

675
00:31:01,222 --> 00:31:04,062
Speaker 1: I mean and you're but you're looking for family like that,

676
00:31:04,262 --> 00:31:06,421
Speaker 1: And like for some communities and cultures, like it's so

677
00:31:06,462 --> 00:31:09,701
Speaker 1: important to build chosen families because you're looking for that

678
00:31:09,742 --> 00:31:13,542
Speaker 1: connection and belonging, right, But that can often mean me

679
00:31:13,661 --> 00:31:15,022
Speaker 1: put it, yeah.

680
00:31:14,822 --> 00:31:17,502
Speaker 3: But why don't you find my bad habits endearing? Why

681
00:31:17,982 --> 00:31:19,742
Speaker 3: performance managed? And why do you keep telling me to

682
00:31:19,742 --> 00:31:20,461
Speaker 3: get off my phone.

683
00:31:20,582 --> 00:31:23,142
Speaker 2: Back to the friendship thing, though, I feel like something

684
00:31:23,142 --> 00:31:26,221
Speaker 2: that reminds me that my friends are my family is

685
00:31:26,262 --> 00:31:30,262
Speaker 2: when I start having friendship affairs, where like, I'm the

686
00:31:30,262 --> 00:31:33,221
Speaker 2: type of person that I love my friends and I

687
00:31:33,262 --> 00:31:34,582
Speaker 2: have like my core group of friends.

688
00:31:34,622 --> 00:31:35,941
Speaker 3: But then sometimes I just want to explore.

689
00:31:36,182 --> 00:31:37,221
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're allowed to do that.

690
00:31:37,942 --> 00:31:38,942
Speaker 3: You want to get the butterflies.

691
00:31:38,942 --> 00:31:40,502
Speaker 2: And then I come back to my core group and

692
00:31:40,502 --> 00:31:44,462
Speaker 2: I talk about all my new friends and then they're like, yeah.

693
00:31:44,102 --> 00:31:45,222
Speaker 3: But you can tell they're jealous.

694
00:31:45,262 --> 00:31:46,981
Speaker 2: I can tell they're jealous, and I can tell that

695
00:31:47,022 --> 00:31:48,782
Speaker 2: they also know this is not going to last. Yeah,

696
00:31:49,062 --> 00:31:50,502
Speaker 2: So then they just wait for me, and then I

697
00:31:50,542 --> 00:31:52,062
Speaker 2: just come back and then they're like, what happened to

698
00:31:52,102 --> 00:31:52,502
Speaker 2: you so and so?

699
00:31:52,542 --> 00:31:55,421
Speaker 3: And I'm like, ah, they didn't really like me. Faster

700
00:31:55,542 --> 00:31:57,662
Speaker 3: fast it's allowed. They kind of just wanted to drink

701
00:31:57,661 --> 00:32:00,022
Speaker 3: every night. And they're like, yeah, that sounds right. Come

702
00:32:00,022 --> 00:32:01,782
Speaker 3: back here. Can't do that with your family though. Bring

703
00:32:01,822 --> 00:32:06,382
Speaker 3: it in. Have you noticed that everyone's hair is long?

704
00:32:06,422 --> 00:32:06,662
Speaker 1: Again?

705
00:32:06,862 --> 00:32:07,701
Speaker 3: Have you too noticed this?

706
00:32:08,062 --> 00:32:12,102
Speaker 1: My hair's always long, but yeah in the so.

707
00:32:11,742 --> 00:32:13,542
Speaker 3: Long my hair is really long. And I'm going to

708
00:32:13,542 --> 00:32:16,102
Speaker 3: get to the complicated psychological reasons why that is in

709
00:32:16,382 --> 00:32:18,302
Speaker 3: your hair is also long. It just goes really fast.

710
00:32:18,382 --> 00:32:19,422
Speaker 3: I kind of quite short though.

711
00:32:19,462 --> 00:32:21,862
Speaker 1: Are you telling me that the bob that everybody got

712
00:32:21,862 --> 00:32:23,782
Speaker 1: for a hot minute, the county bob is it? Is

713
00:32:23,782 --> 00:32:26,182
Speaker 1: it quickly over county bob hole.

714
00:32:26,342 --> 00:32:28,902
Speaker 3: They're growing it out. They are growing it out. Holly,

715
00:32:29,182 --> 00:32:31,421
Speaker 3: your friend with that bob, she's growing it out. You

716
00:32:31,502 --> 00:32:33,902
Speaker 3: see someone you haven't seen, No, while first thing you

717
00:32:33,942 --> 00:32:36,262
Speaker 3: say is, oh my goodness, your hair's got long, right,

718
00:32:36,342 --> 00:32:40,501
Speaker 3: Like this is just a common elaborience. Yeah. The New

719
00:32:40,542 --> 00:32:44,261
Speaker 3: York Times is onto it. Vanessa Friedman writes that we

720
00:32:44,342 --> 00:32:48,062
Speaker 3: are in a Rapunzel age and a number of factors

721
00:32:48,102 --> 00:32:50,942
Speaker 3: are contributing. This is very interesting. A brief history of hair,

722
00:32:51,062 --> 00:32:54,662
Speaker 3: if you'll allow me. In the Eurocentric tradition, long hair

723
00:32:54,702 --> 00:32:59,622
Speaker 3: on women has always been associated with childhood and fertility. Right,

724
00:33:00,102 --> 00:33:03,862
Speaker 3: So cutting it or pinning it up is about maturity.

725
00:33:04,062 --> 00:33:05,622
Speaker 3: It's saying like, I'm an adult now.

726
00:33:05,702 --> 00:33:07,622
Speaker 1: People tell you have to get your haircut when you

727
00:33:07,661 --> 00:33:10,261
Speaker 1: become a parent, yep, And as you get older and

728
00:33:10,302 --> 00:33:10,822
Speaker 1: when you get.

729
00:33:12,222 --> 00:33:14,742
Speaker 3: When you get here, that's when nan wants to shave

730
00:33:14,782 --> 00:33:18,782
Speaker 3: your head. As we entered modernity, it kind of changed.

731
00:33:18,862 --> 00:33:21,662
Speaker 3: Like I think the nineteen twenties flapper vibe. It meant

732
00:33:21,661 --> 00:33:23,221
Speaker 3: that you were like a very modern woman if you

733
00:33:23,262 --> 00:33:26,182
Speaker 3: got your hairstyled because of the widespread like you could

734
00:33:26,182 --> 00:33:29,782
Speaker 3: suddenly get a haircut. But this myth that older women

735
00:33:29,822 --> 00:33:33,382
Speaker 3: should have their haircut has been completely thrown out lately.

736
00:33:33,782 --> 00:33:36,262
Speaker 3: Did you know that Milania Trump is the first first

737
00:33:36,342 --> 00:33:38,622
Speaker 3: lady ever to have hair below her shoulders?

738
00:33:38,742 --> 00:33:39,902
Speaker 1: That is wild in.

739
00:33:39,822 --> 00:33:40,302
Speaker 3: The modern era.

740
00:33:40,502 --> 00:33:43,461
Speaker 1: So we're saying how Michelle Obama, for example, when she

741
00:33:43,582 --> 00:33:47,741
Speaker 1: was first Lady, had very much that sort of the straightened.

742
00:33:47,222 --> 00:33:48,622
Speaker 3: Bob Lary Clinton.

743
00:33:48,782 --> 00:33:51,622
Speaker 1: She's been out of office. Now you see Michelle Obama

744
00:33:51,622 --> 00:33:53,662
Speaker 1: and she's rocking the long braids and she's got that

745
00:33:53,742 --> 00:33:55,622
Speaker 1: the hair she would never have been allowed to have

746
00:33:55,661 --> 00:33:57,981
Speaker 1: when she was I mean for lots of reasons in

747
00:33:57,982 --> 00:34:00,181
Speaker 1: that context, but she would never have been allowed to

748
00:34:00,222 --> 00:34:02,342
Speaker 1: have it when she was first Lady exactly.

749
00:34:02,582 --> 00:34:05,822
Speaker 3: So there are hormonal reasons why hair changes. We know

750
00:34:05,942 --> 00:34:09,781
Speaker 3: that drop of estrogen after menopause can mean that hair

751
00:34:09,902 --> 00:34:11,781
Speaker 3: just gets dry and brittle and people just go screw

752
00:34:11,782 --> 00:34:13,502
Speaker 3: it or cut it off. But all of these new

753
00:34:13,502 --> 00:34:16,582
Speaker 3: treatments make a big difference. But of course that's for

754
00:34:16,661 --> 00:34:20,301
Speaker 3: people who can afford them, So that brings us too.

755
00:34:20,582 --> 00:34:23,742
Speaker 3: Long hair in this moment is a flex.

756
00:34:23,862 --> 00:34:24,542
Speaker 1: It's a flex.

757
00:34:24,661 --> 00:34:27,582
Speaker 3: It requires good health and a certain amount of money

758
00:34:27,622 --> 00:34:30,502
Speaker 3: to maintain, because if you have longer hair, you're not

759
00:34:30,542 --> 00:34:33,142
Speaker 3: just having longer hair. You want it to look shiny

760
00:34:33,221 --> 00:34:35,182
Speaker 3: and luscious and all of that, and so you're spending

761
00:34:35,221 --> 00:34:38,062
Speaker 3: money on it. And mix that in with a complicated

762
00:34:38,462 --> 00:34:43,301
Speaker 3: gender moment, perhaps a bit of a tradwife conservatism revival,

763
00:34:43,701 --> 00:34:46,302
Speaker 3: and you have an entire Trump administration where every woman

764
00:34:46,302 --> 00:34:49,302
Speaker 3: looks like a carbon copy of the next. The long hair,

765
00:34:49,741 --> 00:34:52,941
Speaker 3: the makeup, all of that. Holly, have you ever had

766
00:34:52,982 --> 00:34:55,302
Speaker 3: your hair short? Are you someone who.

767
00:34:55,261 --> 00:34:57,582
Speaker 1: When I was a kid. Yeah, right, I had my

768
00:34:57,622 --> 00:34:59,502
Speaker 1: hair short when I was a kid. I've got lots

769
00:34:59,502 --> 00:35:02,341
Speaker 1: of photos of me with really short hair, but I've

770
00:35:02,422 --> 00:35:05,582
Speaker 1: never had it shorter than my shoulders in adulthood like

771
00:35:06,062 --> 00:35:08,022
Speaker 1: I've had it up here? Should lengths?

772
00:35:08,062 --> 00:35:10,341
Speaker 3: Do you think it's a rebellion too? Just because I'm

773
00:35:10,342 --> 00:35:11,381
Speaker 3: a mum doesn't mean well?

774
00:35:11,902 --> 00:35:15,301
Speaker 1: And I think that now it is definitely an act

775
00:35:15,342 --> 00:35:18,301
Speaker 1: of personal rebellion to have really long hair, even though

776
00:35:18,342 --> 00:35:20,702
Speaker 1: it's not very cool, and people I mean, well, apparently

777
00:35:20,701 --> 00:35:23,062
Speaker 1: it is now actually, but it hasn't been very cool

778
00:35:23,062 --> 00:35:24,821
Speaker 1: in the last year. I remember when I went and

779
00:35:24,902 --> 00:35:27,261
Speaker 1: for mid I did, I got my style assessed by

780
00:35:27,302 --> 00:35:30,862
Speaker 1: that woman who's apparently an expert in like mature lady stuff,

781
00:35:31,022 --> 00:35:33,302
Speaker 1: and she was like, cut your fucking hair. And people

782
00:35:33,342 --> 00:35:35,022
Speaker 1: often say that to me, They're like, cut your hair,

783
00:35:35,022 --> 00:35:38,502
Speaker 1: and I'm like, no, because it feels and maybe it

784
00:35:38,622 --> 00:35:41,661
Speaker 1: is like internalized ages in me. It feels like me

785
00:35:42,142 --> 00:35:45,062
Speaker 1: like me to have my long hair, you know what

786
00:35:45,062 --> 00:35:48,982
Speaker 1: I mean, Like I just feel like that. It's interesting

787
00:35:49,022 --> 00:35:51,741
Speaker 1: because I think for older women, I think it is

788
00:35:51,862 --> 00:35:54,422
Speaker 1: that symbol like you look at a Demimore or whoever

789
00:35:54,582 --> 00:35:57,022
Speaker 1: you know, and they've got this very long hair and

790
00:35:57,902 --> 00:36:01,342
Speaker 1: definitely a youth play. Definitely it is, even if it

791
00:36:01,342 --> 00:36:04,181
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily work. Like I don't think that my long

792
00:36:04,221 --> 00:36:07,821
Speaker 1: hair makes me look younger. It just makes me feel

793
00:36:08,062 --> 00:36:10,981
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But for younger women it's

794
00:36:11,062 --> 00:36:13,022
Speaker 1: back in fashion too, And why is that.

795
00:36:13,342 --> 00:36:17,102
Speaker 3: I think that that's because of this ultra feminine idea.

796
00:36:17,181 --> 00:36:19,662
Speaker 3: And the men that I know who had long hair

797
00:36:19,741 --> 00:36:22,342
Speaker 3: have just recently all cut it short, so it's almost

798
00:36:22,382 --> 00:36:25,741
Speaker 3: like this confirming of the gender roles. But when I

799
00:36:25,781 --> 00:36:29,741
Speaker 3: became a mum, I was like, I am absolutely.

800
00:36:29,261 --> 00:36:30,901
Speaker 1: Not cutting my hair getting the mum bob.

801
00:36:30,982 --> 00:36:33,102
Speaker 3: I'm not doing it because I don't want to look

802
00:36:33,221 --> 00:36:35,142
Speaker 3: And I love my mom. She's great, her hair's great.

803
00:36:35,382 --> 00:36:37,422
Speaker 3: But I'm like, I think every woman doesn't want to

804
00:36:37,422 --> 00:36:39,382
Speaker 3: look like their mum because then you're like, I look.

805
00:36:39,261 --> 00:36:39,901
Speaker 1: Like a mum.

806
00:36:40,261 --> 00:36:42,821
Speaker 3: I would look like my mum because when I was little,

807
00:36:42,822 --> 00:36:45,582
Speaker 3: in all the photos, she had short hair. And so

808
00:36:45,622 --> 00:36:48,102
Speaker 3: I wonder if we all just rebel against what our

809
00:36:48,142 --> 00:36:50,942
Speaker 3: mothers look like. Like I know my mum rebels against

810
00:36:51,022 --> 00:36:53,502
Speaker 3: the perm like my nan had the you know the

811
00:36:53,542 --> 00:36:55,542
Speaker 3: older woman had the kind of would go and get

812
00:36:55,542 --> 00:36:57,861
Speaker 3: their hair set. My mom would never do that. That's

813
00:36:57,862 --> 00:37:00,062
Speaker 3: for old ladies. And so I wonder if it's kind

814
00:37:00,062 --> 00:37:02,902
Speaker 3: of this pendulum shift. How about you, you am? Are you

815
00:37:02,942 --> 00:37:05,062
Speaker 3: finding that your mates are growing it long? Yeah?

816
00:37:05,221 --> 00:37:07,942
Speaker 2: I think everyone tried the bob in their early twenties

817
00:37:07,942 --> 00:37:09,982
Speaker 2: on mid twenties and now they're growing it out. But

818
00:37:10,142 --> 00:37:13,062
Speaker 2: I have this weird thing in my head, like ever

819
00:37:13,102 --> 00:37:17,302
Speaker 2: since I was young, where I thought every woman wanted

820
00:37:17,342 --> 00:37:20,502
Speaker 2: to have short hair, but they couldn't have short hair

821
00:37:20,542 --> 00:37:23,422
Speaker 2: because men prefer long hair. So the only women who

822
00:37:23,462 --> 00:37:25,982
Speaker 2: had short hair were women in relationships because they were

823
00:37:26,022 --> 00:37:28,502
Speaker 2: allowed to because they already caught one. Yeah, they really

824
00:37:28,502 --> 00:37:30,542
Speaker 2: caught one. So in my head like I just don't

825
00:37:30,582 --> 00:37:31,502
Speaker 2: think I could ever do.

826
00:37:32,622 --> 00:37:35,781
Speaker 3: That's funny because I cut my hair when I was

827
00:37:36,102 --> 00:37:38,622
Speaker 3: maybe at school, like maybe seventeen or something, just like

828
00:37:38,701 --> 00:37:41,421
Speaker 3: quite short and with the boys like oh yeah. So

829
00:37:41,622 --> 00:37:44,261
Speaker 3: someone said to me, you cut your hotness off, which

830
00:37:44,302 --> 00:37:48,182
Speaker 3: I think is was his way of saying, your face sucks.

831
00:37:48,661 --> 00:37:51,022
Speaker 3: And the blonde hair at least like covered it a

832
00:37:51,022 --> 00:37:53,741
Speaker 3: little bit, And now I was so much face. I

833
00:37:53,741 --> 00:37:55,462
Speaker 3: don't think I have the bone structure. You know that

834
00:37:55,502 --> 00:37:57,741
Speaker 3: TikTok filter that tells you whether you can pull off

835
00:37:57,942 --> 00:37:59,902
Speaker 3: short hair. It said to me, absolutely, well.

836
00:37:59,701 --> 00:38:01,462
Speaker 1: This is the thing. Is like hair a bit like

837
00:38:01,622 --> 00:38:03,741
Speaker 1: every time they tell us that various body parts of

838
00:38:03,741 --> 00:38:06,661
Speaker 1: ours are either in fashion or out. It's like that

839
00:38:06,902 --> 00:38:08,982
Speaker 1: bob that everybody had for a hot minute, The County

840
00:38:09,022 --> 00:38:13,302
Speaker 1: bob looks amazing on a handful of people. Yeah, like amazing.

841
00:38:13,902 --> 00:38:16,502
Speaker 1: But I remember when that lady told me to do it,

842
00:38:16,542 --> 00:38:18,261
Speaker 1: I was like, have you seen my jawline? Like I

843
00:38:18,261 --> 00:38:20,701
Speaker 1: don't mean that to be like self deprecating, but it's

844
00:38:20,741 --> 00:38:21,701
Speaker 1: not for everyone.

845
00:38:21,902 --> 00:38:22,102
Speaker 3: You know.

846
00:38:22,422 --> 00:38:24,701
Speaker 1: I had one of my best mates at college at

847
00:38:24,781 --> 00:38:27,741
Speaker 1: UNI who was definitely cool. When we had that conversation

848
00:38:27,741 --> 00:38:30,622
Speaker 1: about who is called my friend Suzanne is the coolest,

849
00:38:30,661 --> 00:38:33,582
Speaker 1: she just shaved her head. Like just wish it was

850
00:38:33,582 --> 00:38:35,982
Speaker 1: one of those women. She was only twenty and she

851
00:38:36,142 --> 00:38:40,261
Speaker 1: just shaved her head and she looked incredible. But like

852
00:38:40,342 --> 00:38:42,221
Speaker 1: the rest of us, we would have looked like potatoes

853
00:38:42,261 --> 00:38:43,982
Speaker 1: if we'd have done that. So, you know, I think

854
00:38:44,022 --> 00:38:47,301
Speaker 1: we can't, like we slave to trends. The idea that

855
00:38:47,342 --> 00:38:51,301
Speaker 1: it is still deeply ingrained that men prefer longer hair

856
00:38:51,342 --> 00:38:54,102
Speaker 1: in heterosexual situations is so depressing, Like.

857
00:38:54,181 --> 00:38:56,142
Speaker 3: Really, is it true? I think it's true.

858
00:38:56,221 --> 00:38:59,542
Speaker 1: Well, it's true. Culturally it's true, because it's like, why

859
00:38:59,582 --> 00:39:01,262
Speaker 1: do they because they've been.

860
00:39:01,302 --> 00:39:03,142
Speaker 3: Taught to because we look more fertile.

861
00:39:03,422 --> 00:39:06,142
Speaker 1: Yeah, we look younger and more fertile, and culturally that's

862
00:39:06,142 --> 00:39:08,262
Speaker 1: what they've always been told. You know, all the sexy

863
00:39:08,302 --> 00:39:11,702
Speaker 1: girl you never see a lingerie model with short hair

864
00:39:11,982 --> 00:39:13,702
Speaker 1: or you know, like any kind.

865
00:39:13,542 --> 00:39:14,462
Speaker 3: Of Victoria's Secret.

866
00:39:15,462 --> 00:39:17,261
Speaker 1: When have you ever seen a Victoria's Secret model of

867
00:39:17,302 --> 00:39:21,582
Speaker 1: short hall? Like that kind of very cliched, male gayzy

868
00:39:21,701 --> 00:39:24,701
Speaker 1: idea of beauty always comes with long hair, which is

869
00:39:24,741 --> 00:39:27,502
Speaker 1: why I mean, hair isn't just hair for lots of

870
00:39:27,502 --> 00:39:29,502
Speaker 1: different reasons, right, but that's one of them is that

871
00:39:29,542 --> 00:39:31,942
Speaker 1: when you cut it off, you're kind of going cute.

872
00:39:32,741 --> 00:39:36,102
Speaker 2: After the break are weekly recommendations, including a new novel

873
00:39:36,142 --> 00:39:38,822
Speaker 2: that was so good and made me spiral.

874
00:39:39,342 --> 00:39:43,302
Speaker 3: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

875
00:39:43,302 --> 00:39:47,821
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively for Muma MEA subscribers. Follow the link

876
00:39:47,862 --> 00:39:49,822
Speaker 3: in the show notes to get us in your ears

877
00:39:49,942 --> 00:39:52,542
Speaker 3: five days a week, and a huge thank you to

878
00:39:52,622 --> 00:39:54,221
Speaker 3: all our current subscribers.

879
00:40:02,422 --> 00:40:07,382
Speaker 2: Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun. This is my

880
00:40:07,462 --> 00:40:11,261
Speaker 2: best recommendation Friday, and we want to help set up

881
00:40:11,302 --> 00:40:13,781
Speaker 2: your weekend with our best recommendations.

882
00:40:13,862 --> 00:40:18,461
Speaker 3: Jesse. Okay, it's not often that Jesse recommends be related things,

883
00:40:18,502 --> 00:40:22,022
Speaker 3: but last week I discovered that expensive hair care actually works.

884
00:40:22,582 --> 00:40:25,741
Speaker 3: And this week I have terrible news, which is that

885
00:40:26,302 --> 00:40:27,982
Speaker 3: I think we're using Primer again.

886
00:40:28,582 --> 00:40:30,102
Speaker 1: We are, I think we are?

887
00:40:30,582 --> 00:40:30,861
Speaker 2: We are.

888
00:40:31,062 --> 00:40:33,221
Speaker 1: I've also purchased a Primer recently.

889
00:40:33,342 --> 00:40:33,542
Speaker 4: Yep.

890
00:40:33,661 --> 00:40:37,261
Speaker 3: Yeah, so what happened was I've got quite oily skin

891
00:40:37,622 --> 00:40:39,342
Speaker 3: and I was finding that I was putting my makeup

892
00:40:39,342 --> 00:40:39,781
Speaker 3: on in the morning.

893
00:40:39,902 --> 00:40:42,461
Speaker 2: That's a very youthful problem to have, you think, Yeah,

894
00:40:42,582 --> 00:40:46,622
Speaker 2: oh my god, shut up.

895
00:40:47,422 --> 00:40:49,582
Speaker 3: I just felt like my makeup was dripping off my

896
00:40:49,582 --> 00:40:50,901
Speaker 3: face by the end of the day, and I'd look

897
00:40:50,942 --> 00:40:53,461
Speaker 3: in the mirror and it was patchy. And I use

898
00:40:54,062 --> 00:40:56,542
Speaker 3: powder because when we film and stuff, the lights can

899
00:40:56,582 --> 00:40:58,181
Speaker 3: be a bit intense, like a setting powder, like a

900
00:40:58,221 --> 00:41:00,221
Speaker 3: setting powder, and I thought that was going to keep

901
00:41:00,221 --> 00:41:03,142
Speaker 3: it on. But I was just having issues. So the

902
00:41:03,181 --> 00:41:05,342
Speaker 3: other day, I have a feeling. I end up in Mecca,

903
00:41:05,622 --> 00:41:09,341
Speaker 3: right and I'm like, I came across the Laura Mercia

904
00:41:09,982 --> 00:41:13,382
Speaker 3: primer and I remembered I had it years ago. I

905
00:41:13,422 --> 00:41:16,381
Speaker 3: ran out and I just never refilled it, and I

906
00:41:16,422 --> 00:41:19,381
Speaker 3: grabbed it. I grabbed the blurring one, which is meant

907
00:41:19,382 --> 00:41:21,502
Speaker 3: to be a little bit more matifying, because I went,

908
00:41:21,542 --> 00:41:23,301
Speaker 3: if I do something too glowy or hydrating, I'm just

909
00:41:23,342 --> 00:41:26,781
Speaker 3: gonna look really shiny. Grabbed that. I don't want to

910
00:41:26,781 --> 00:41:30,102
Speaker 3: say it changed my life, but for seventy nine dollars,

911
00:41:30,142 --> 00:41:32,661
Speaker 3: you'd hope, oh my god, seventy nine dollars. And it's

912
00:41:32,701 --> 00:41:35,461
Speaker 3: a really small bottle. So I'm horrified. It's a good

913
00:41:35,462 --> 00:41:36,821
Speaker 3: one though, because it's also it.

914
00:41:38,741 --> 00:41:39,982
Speaker 1: Must have been having big feelings.

915
00:41:40,261 --> 00:41:42,701
Speaker 3: I was having big feelings. There's a lot going on,

916
00:41:43,181 --> 00:41:47,262
Speaker 3: so apparently it hides the appearance of pause. No comment

917
00:41:47,302 --> 00:41:51,302
Speaker 3: on that one, but that I have staring deep yeah pause,

918
00:41:51,342 --> 00:41:54,542
Speaker 3: poor poor. But what I will say is that I

919
00:41:54,582 --> 00:41:57,861
Speaker 3: put that on underneath, and it's like glue. Like my

920
00:41:57,942 --> 00:42:01,181
Speaker 3: makeup all day is stuck. I'm not having to reapply.

921
00:42:01,661 --> 00:42:06,022
Speaker 3: It's not patchy. It all goes on so much smoother now.

922
00:42:06,181 --> 00:42:08,022
Speaker 3: Seventy nine is a lot. So the other day my

923
00:42:08,062 --> 00:42:11,582
Speaker 3: friend was using the new go to. I thought, yep,

924
00:42:11,701 --> 00:42:14,341
Speaker 3: and I glowy. I tried the glowy one. I've used

925
00:42:14,382 --> 00:42:17,662
Speaker 3: the mat which I thought the glowy. Surely I'm gonna

926
00:42:17,701 --> 00:42:22,582
Speaker 3: look ridiculous, not too glowy, not too shiny at all.

927
00:42:22,701 --> 00:42:24,661
Speaker 3: And again kept my makeup on all day and it's

928
00:42:24,661 --> 00:42:26,861
Speaker 3: got some skin care in it. Yeah, and that one's

929
00:42:26,902 --> 00:42:29,062
Speaker 3: forty nine, so it's a little bit more affordable.

930
00:42:29,221 --> 00:42:31,182
Speaker 2: I've got a cheaper one for you. Oh yes, please,

931
00:42:31,221 --> 00:42:33,861
Speaker 2: I've got a Maybeline one. It's called Grippy Serum. I'm

932
00:42:33,902 --> 00:42:34,661
Speaker 2: wearing it right now.

933
00:42:34,701 --> 00:42:36,942
Speaker 3: Actually, you're looking very glowing, thank.

934
00:42:36,741 --> 00:42:40,742
Speaker 2: You so much, hold everything together, and isn't super shiny.

935
00:42:40,781 --> 00:42:42,461
Speaker 2: I think it's around fourteen dollars a price.

936
00:42:42,701 --> 00:42:44,622
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going to try that one. I really like

937
00:42:44,661 --> 00:42:46,582
Speaker 3: my cinema. It on my desk. I'll give it to you.

938
00:42:46,701 --> 00:42:49,901
Speaker 1: Do you think because Primate comes in, Primate goes out.

939
00:42:49,902 --> 00:42:52,861
Speaker 1: I remember Lee Campbell saying on New Beauty years ago, like, nah,

940
00:42:52,862 --> 00:42:56,302
Speaker 1: don't bother, but I haven't heard what her current judgment

941
00:42:56,382 --> 00:42:59,381
Speaker 1: is on Prima, so just came back. Maybe Primate got

942
00:42:59,382 --> 00:43:01,942
Speaker 1: better because the thing about Primate is I always feel

943
00:43:01,982 --> 00:43:05,422
Speaker 1: like it's just another layer. I'm already piling on, like

944
00:43:05,982 --> 00:43:09,301
Speaker 1: Serum's moisturizer, then it's Primate, then it's this and that.

945
00:43:10,022 --> 00:43:12,022
Speaker 1: But you reckon it really has made a difference.

946
00:43:12,142 --> 00:43:14,422
Speaker 3: Yeah, and apparently it does seal. So what I do

947
00:43:14,542 --> 00:43:17,901
Speaker 3: in summer, especially is I do my sunscreen and then

948
00:43:17,942 --> 00:43:20,701
Speaker 3: I put the primer over the top, and that's pretty

949
00:43:20,781 --> 00:43:22,501
Speaker 3: much all I'm doing because I was doing too many layers,

950
00:43:22,502 --> 00:43:24,701
Speaker 3: and I think that's why I was looking like I'd

951
00:43:24,741 --> 00:43:28,142
Speaker 3: just gotten out of the shower. So, especially for oily

952
00:43:28,221 --> 00:43:31,142
Speaker 3: skinned girls, I think that primer is on your best friend.

953
00:43:31,342 --> 00:43:33,901
Speaker 2: I also noticed it makes my makeup easier to take

954
00:43:33,942 --> 00:43:36,861
Speaker 2: off at night time, Like it doesn't sink again as much.

955
00:43:36,902 --> 00:43:38,862
Speaker 2: I'm not scrubbing my face as much when I'm taking it.

956
00:43:39,422 --> 00:43:44,341
Speaker 1: Listen to us kind of. I've got a podcast, the

957
00:43:44,382 --> 00:43:48,102
Speaker 1: BBC podcast that I was recommended on the weekend and

958
00:43:48,181 --> 00:43:50,942
Speaker 1: immediately listen to while I was driving and I'm addicted to.

959
00:43:51,022 --> 00:43:53,942
Speaker 1: It's called The Gift, And this is a podcast that

960
00:43:53,982 --> 00:43:57,301
Speaker 1: the concept for is like, you know that you've done this.

961
00:43:57,382 --> 00:43:59,701
Speaker 1: Haven't you done the DNA test? You know that the

962
00:43:59,781 --> 00:44:02,821
Speaker 1: ancestry the twenty three and me those tests that you

963
00:44:02,902 --> 00:44:05,982
Speaker 1: do to find out about your genetic and family history

964
00:44:05,982 --> 00:44:06,661
Speaker 1: and all those things.

965
00:44:06,701 --> 00:44:10,421
Speaker 3: They keep finding like long forgotten sea real killers who

966
00:44:10,422 --> 00:44:14,302
Speaker 3: they couldn't find for decades through their cousins' ancestry DNA tests.

967
00:44:14,342 --> 00:44:15,781
Speaker 3: So yeah, exactly.

968
00:44:16,542 --> 00:44:19,901
Speaker 1: So this genius podcast, The Gift, is all about that.

969
00:44:19,982 --> 00:44:24,462
Speaker 1: Each episode follows a different story of a mess that

970
00:44:24,582 --> 00:44:27,102
Speaker 1: came about because of an ancestry test.

971
00:44:27,261 --> 00:44:29,622
Speaker 3: We had that in my own family, actually quite recent

972
00:44:29,902 --> 00:44:32,781
Speaker 3: we had a child come forward that wenty my dad.

973
00:44:33,221 --> 00:44:35,142
Speaker 1: There are some in my friend groups that have found

974
00:44:35,142 --> 00:44:37,941
Speaker 1: out some interesting things about themselves from doing these tests.

975
00:44:38,022 --> 00:44:38,861
Speaker 3: Have you done one huh.

976
00:44:38,902 --> 00:44:41,102
Speaker 1: I've never done one, but now I want to because

977
00:44:41,102 --> 00:44:43,022
Speaker 1: I just want to see what shit comes from. So

978
00:44:43,181 --> 00:44:45,221
Speaker 1: it's not new this show, but I've just discovered it.

979
00:44:45,261 --> 00:44:47,341
Speaker 1: So there are two series you can listen to if

980
00:44:47,342 --> 00:44:49,661
Speaker 1: you go and find it. But the first one and

981
00:44:49,701 --> 00:44:53,102
Speaker 1: the one that got me absolutely hooked, was basically about

982
00:44:53,142 --> 00:44:56,422
Speaker 1: how a series of different testers in the UK. Because

983
00:44:56,422 --> 00:44:58,462
Speaker 1: this is a BBC show, there's some American stories there,

984
00:44:58,542 --> 00:45:01,821
Speaker 1: some British stories found through doing their DNA test that

985
00:45:01,822 --> 00:45:03,942
Speaker 1: they were children of Dona sperm and they didn't know that.

986
00:45:04,062 --> 00:45:06,381
Speaker 1: But then what they then went on to find out

987
00:45:06,942 --> 00:45:10,622
Speaker 1: about the murky ethics about where that sperm came from

988
00:45:11,142 --> 00:45:14,341
Speaker 1: is really really interesting because I didn't know this, but

989
00:45:14,462 --> 00:45:17,221
Speaker 1: like nearly all fertility treatments in the UK, and I'm

990
00:45:17,221 --> 00:45:19,861
Speaker 1: sure in other places too, we're not regulated at all

991
00:45:20,022 --> 00:45:22,302
Speaker 1: until the nineties. So it was just the wild West.

992
00:45:22,462 --> 00:45:24,301
Speaker 1: So the guy could be saying, oh, this Donus sperm

993
00:45:24,382 --> 00:45:26,741
Speaker 1: comes from blah blah, and it could have just been well,

994
00:45:26,781 --> 00:45:28,382
Speaker 1: I won't tell you because that would be a spoiler.

995
00:45:28,741 --> 00:45:31,102
Speaker 1: But it's such a good show. It's kind of long

996
00:45:31,142 --> 00:45:35,142
Speaker 1: form storytelling. It's really good for drives. Hot Girl walks, etc.

997
00:45:35,542 --> 00:45:39,262
Speaker 2: How about you, en, Okay, I've just finished reading a book.

998
00:45:39,622 --> 00:45:41,062
Speaker 2: It is called very You.

999
00:45:41,062 --> 00:45:43,701
Speaker 1: Made that sound like you don't usually, but actually you

1000
00:45:43,781 --> 00:45:44,381
Speaker 1: read all the time.

1001
00:45:44,422 --> 00:45:45,302
Speaker 3: I read all the time.

1002
00:45:45,462 --> 00:45:47,942
Speaker 2: I really recommend them because I always forget that they

1003
00:45:47,982 --> 00:45:51,261
Speaker 2: can and I just think it's a really cool thing

1004
00:45:51,302 --> 00:45:55,341
Speaker 2: to have when you know how to read good. I'm

1005
00:45:55,342 --> 00:45:57,382
Speaker 2: smiling because it's a new book and I know you

1006
00:45:57,422 --> 00:45:59,941
Speaker 2: guys haven't read it yet, because yeah, fresh and new,

1007
00:45:59,982 --> 00:46:00,422
Speaker 2: you read it?

1008
00:46:00,462 --> 00:46:02,821
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no no no. I think it's on my desk,

1009
00:46:02,902 --> 00:46:05,622
Speaker 3: though it's on your desk, because I have a feeling it's.

1010
00:46:05,701 --> 00:46:09,701
Speaker 2: Claire's publisher published this book. It's called Very Impressive for

1011
00:46:09,741 --> 00:46:12,582
Speaker 2: Your Age by Ellena Kirk. It's her debut novel and

1012
00:46:12,622 --> 00:46:15,222
Speaker 2: she's quite young. Have you noticed everyone's named Evelyn?

1013
00:46:15,261 --> 00:46:19,662
Speaker 3: Now, yes, suddenly Evelyn is everywhere anyway? Is it aussy?

1014
00:46:19,982 --> 00:46:20,502
Speaker 3: It is aussy?

1015
00:46:20,582 --> 00:46:20,741
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1016
00:46:20,781 --> 00:46:21,341
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.

1017
00:46:21,661 --> 00:46:24,661
Speaker 2: So it's about this character named Evelyn. She's twenty six

1018
00:46:24,822 --> 00:46:27,381
Speaker 2: years old and she's Australian and she's one of those

1019
00:46:27,422 --> 00:46:31,622
Speaker 2: like child prodige. It's like she's an amazing, amazing, amazing singer.

1020
00:46:31,982 --> 00:46:34,701
Speaker 2: So after high school she moves to Europe, and she's

1021
00:46:34,741 --> 00:46:37,861
Speaker 2: currently in Germany doing these massive operas like she's been

1022
00:46:38,142 --> 00:46:41,142
Speaker 2: written about. She's doing all these amazing auditions. She's on

1023
00:46:41,221 --> 00:46:44,741
Speaker 2: the stage, she's singing this huge ballad. No sound comes

1024
00:46:44,741 --> 00:46:48,181
Speaker 2: out of her voice, oh wow. And it's about how

1025
00:46:48,181 --> 00:46:52,021
Speaker 2: she just completely loses her singing ability. She can talk

1026
00:46:52,062 --> 00:46:54,502
Speaker 2: and stuff, but when it comes to singing, no sounds

1027
00:46:54,582 --> 00:46:55,022
Speaker 2: coming out.

1028
00:46:55,382 --> 00:46:55,702
Speaker 1: Wow.

1029
00:46:55,781 --> 00:46:58,181
Speaker 2: And it's kind of about what happens when the one

1030
00:46:58,261 --> 00:47:00,902
Speaker 2: thing you're good at you can't do anymore. And she

1031
00:47:01,022 --> 00:47:03,502
Speaker 2: moves back to Australia, she now has to work back

1032
00:47:03,502 --> 00:47:06,462
Speaker 2: in old high school. She's kind of like having to

1033
00:47:06,502 --> 00:47:09,022
Speaker 2: revert her life. It's also one of those characters that

1034
00:47:09,102 --> 00:47:12,301
Speaker 2: you just deeply dislike but you want them to win.

1035
00:47:13,781 --> 00:47:16,661
Speaker 2: It is so so good and also so so funny.

1036
00:47:16,741 --> 00:47:19,221
Speaker 2: I love books that just make me laugh, and this

1037
00:47:19,261 --> 00:47:20,421
Speaker 2: one made me really really laugh.

1038
00:47:20,582 --> 00:47:22,701
Speaker 3: I find that one of the most interesting questions I

1039
00:47:22,741 --> 00:47:25,582
Speaker 3: think with athletes when their careers end and you go,

1040
00:47:25,661 --> 00:47:27,262
Speaker 3: who are you without your skill?

1041
00:47:27,582 --> 00:47:27,661
Speaker 1: Like?

1042
00:47:27,701 --> 00:47:29,861
Speaker 3: And I think it happens to everyone. It's at some

1043
00:47:29,982 --> 00:47:32,221
Speaker 3: point and the thing you think that was part of

1044
00:47:32,261 --> 00:47:33,701
Speaker 3: your identity you lose.

1045
00:47:33,502 --> 00:47:35,941
Speaker 2: And also just the people around you you lose as well,

1046
00:47:36,062 --> 00:47:39,382
Speaker 2: because I like what you say. You to me now, yes, true,

1047
00:47:39,542 --> 00:47:40,301
Speaker 2: it's so good.

1048
00:47:40,462 --> 00:47:41,982
Speaker 3: I've heard really good things about this.

1049
00:47:41,982 --> 00:47:42,701
Speaker 1: What's it called again?

1050
00:47:42,741 --> 00:47:45,301
Speaker 2: I'm very impressive for your age by Ellen or Kirk.

1051
00:47:46,302 --> 00:47:49,062
Speaker 1: Thank you so much out Louders for being here with

1052
00:47:49,142 --> 00:47:52,382
Speaker 1: us for another week. We love you for it. Don't forget.

1053
00:47:52,582 --> 00:47:54,301
Speaker 1: You can watch us on YouTube if you want to.

1054
00:47:54,382 --> 00:47:56,622
Speaker 1: And if you want to judge everybody's prime please don't

1055
00:47:56,661 --> 00:47:58,862
Speaker 1: do that. Don't watch it closely at our face that

1056
00:47:58,982 --> 00:48:01,781
Speaker 1: they won't, but m Jesse read this out.

1057
00:48:01,902 --> 00:48:04,982
Speaker 3: A big thank you to our team group executive producer

1058
00:48:05,221 --> 00:48:08,982
Speaker 3: Ruth Divine, executive producer Sasha Tanic I've seen.

1059
00:48:09,022 --> 00:48:12,221
Speaker 2: Your audio producer is Leah porge'es. Our video producer is

1060
00:48:12,302 --> 00:48:12,821
Speaker 2: Josh Green.

1061
00:48:12,902 --> 00:48:13,701
Speaker 1: It's his birthday.

1062
00:48:13,741 --> 00:48:17,102
Speaker 3: Happy birthday, Josh, Happy birthday, Josh. And our junior content

1063
00:48:17,142 --> 00:48:20,182
Speaker 3: producers are Coco and Tessa. But wait, there's more, because

1064
00:48:20,221 --> 00:48:23,781
Speaker 3: we cannot go without telling you about a brand new

1065
00:48:24,142 --> 00:48:26,661
Speaker 3: Muma mea podcast and you may have heard about it

1066
00:48:26,701 --> 00:48:30,221
Speaker 3: because it was made by the out Louders for the

1067
00:48:30,261 --> 00:48:33,622
Speaker 3: out Louders, and it is unlike anything that has been

1068
00:48:33,661 --> 00:48:37,102
Speaker 3: made in Australia before. It is called this is Why

1069
00:48:37,142 --> 00:48:41,582
Speaker 3: We Fight, and it launches today. It is Australia's first

1070
00:48:41,622 --> 00:48:45,822
Speaker 3: and only therapy based podcast. So if you ever watched

1071
00:48:46,221 --> 00:48:50,582
Speaker 3: Couple's Therapy and you love kind of watching like I mean,

1072
00:48:50,622 --> 00:48:53,582
Speaker 3: I suppose it's drama and it's real people and it's

1073
00:48:53,902 --> 00:48:57,662
Speaker 3: real problems. We've kept them anonymous so there aren't names,

1074
00:48:58,142 --> 00:49:02,102
Speaker 3: but we have a clinical psychologist named Sarah Bays who

1075
00:49:02,142 --> 00:49:06,701
Speaker 3: sits and counsels essentially people through real life problems. And

1076
00:49:06,781 --> 00:49:10,901
Speaker 3: today's episode deals with a couple and their different definitions

1077
00:49:10,942 --> 00:49:15,582
Speaker 3: of cheating. It's about trust, it's about boundaries in a relationship.

1078
00:49:15,862 --> 00:49:18,382
Speaker 3: It is exceptional listening and I could not rate it

1079
00:49:18,542 --> 00:49:22,221
Speaker 3: more highly. So that is your weekend listening sorted. You've

1080
00:49:22,261 --> 00:49:24,701
Speaker 3: got your mum Mia out Loud, You've got your this

1081
00:49:24,822 --> 00:49:26,902
Speaker 3: is Why We Fight and of course the latest episode

1082
00:49:26,902 --> 00:49:29,741
Speaker 3: of Parenting Out Loud we'll drop on Saturday morning. Tick

1083
00:49:30,302 --> 00:49:32,902
Speaker 3: links to everything we've mentioned on today's show will of

1084
00:49:32,982 --> 00:49:36,302
Speaker 3: course be in the show notes. Bye Cia.

1085
00:49:37,261 --> 00:49:40,542
Speaker 1: Shout out to ANYMMA mia subscribers listening. If you love

1086
00:49:40,622 --> 00:49:43,301
Speaker 1: the show and you want to support us, subscribing to

1087
00:49:43,342 --> 00:49:45,661
Speaker 1: Momma Mia is the very best way to do it.

1088
00:49:45,822 --> 00:49:47,701
Speaker 1: There's a link in the episode description,