Speaker 1: Happiness can't be felt by the other people around you
Speaker 1: who are envious. If you think that other people's envy
Speaker 1: is going to build you up, it's not because you
Speaker 1: can't touch that. Like who says you have to write
Speaker 1: a book every year, who says that you've got to
Speaker 1: say yes to this incredible opportunity that is going to
Speaker 1: tire you out so much that your marriage suffers. That's
Speaker 1: my goal when I get those incredible moments to actually
Speaker 1: be able to feel them.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy
Speaker 2: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
Speaker 2: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but
Speaker 2: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than
Speaker 2: one way. So this is a platform to hear and
Speaker 2: explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore,
Speaker 2: the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst day
Speaker 2: will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm
Speaker 2: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned
Speaker 2: entrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found
Speaker 2: matcha Maiden and matcham Milk Bark Cca is a series
Speaker 2: of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring
Speaker 2: the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. Yahborhood,
Speaker 2: we are back with a guest episode for you, and
Speaker 2: I'm thrilled to have one of Australia's most known and
Speaker 2: loved voices on the show this week, the inimitable Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2: Many of you will probably recognize Jesse, or at least
Speaker 2: recognize her voice as one of the hosts of the
Speaker 2: chart topping podcast Mamma Mia Out Loud, among many other
Speaker 2: shows in the prolific Mamma Mea network of which Jesse
Speaker 2: is also an executive editor and which we, you may
Speaker 2: have noticed, are so excited to have joined recently in
Speaker 2: a brand new chapter for Cca. While Jesse is now
Speaker 2: dominating the airwaves and has also authored two incredible books,
Speaker 2: you may not know that she actually began as a
Speaker 2: very junior Burger editorial assistant a decade ago at Mamma
Speaker 2: Maya and worked her way up the ranks to become
Speaker 2: one of the few people who can say that they've
Speaker 2: been in the one workplace for ten years, an example
Speaker 2: that you don't have to leave your job or leave
Speaker 2: your workplace to grow and find new Yea's and one
Speaker 2: of the coolest parts of this story. Jesse is an
Speaker 2: executive editor at Mumma Mia alongside her twin sister, Claire Stevens,
Speaker 2: another of Australia's most known and loved voices that you
Speaker 2: will likely recognize. They both study different things in their
Speaker 2: undergraduate but then went on to complete a master's of
Speaker 2: research left academia, began as editorial assistants together at Mamma Maya,
Speaker 2: and they have worked their way up in different but
Speaker 2: parallel ways. And the two also have not just brothers,
Speaker 2: twin brothers. That's two sets in one family. So it
Speaker 2: was fascinating to learn about such a unique and special
Speaker 2: facet to her path.
Speaker 1: Yea.
Speaker 2: Jesse is also just a little bit ahead of me
Speaker 2: as a working mum and such a great source of inspiration,
Speaker 2: having lent her wisdom on the Juggle on a chapter
Speaker 2: of The Juggle, the book by my dear friend and
Speaker 2: manager Genevieve Day, who you've heard from just a couple
Speaker 2: of episodes ago in our Caesar Baby episode. Despite having
Speaker 2: many mutual friends and working in some of the same circles,
Speaker 2: I'd actually never chatted to Jesse before, but you would
Speaker 2: never know because she is such an incredible conversationalist, and
Speaker 2: I hope that you guys enjoy this one as much
Speaker 2: as I did. Jesse Stevens, Welcome to CZA.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I'm very excited.
Speaker 2: I'm so excited that we made it through multiple reschedules
Speaker 2: to sit down and record today, being in similar chapters
Speaker 2: of juggling motherhood with work, and that you just completely
Speaker 2: understood the logistical challenges of recording. But I'm also excited because,
Speaker 2: of course, you were a voice that most of Australia
Speaker 2: already knows and loves. Executive editor and host at Mama Mia,
Speaker 2: which is a family CZA is so thrilled to have
Speaker 2: recently joined. So absolutely delighted to have you today.
Speaker 1: It's the relief of having when you have been unreliable
Speaker 1: in terms of I have to reschedule because babysitting issue, work, whatever,
Speaker 1: the relief of having someone else cancel the next one
Speaker 1: is just so good. All my guilt evaporates and I'm like, yes,
Speaker 1: I'm not the only one who stuffed up this scheduling,
Speaker 1: so I quite like that. I feel like you genuinely
Speaker 1: didn't judge me.
Speaker 2: Oh, only because I knew I would also reschedule just
Speaker 2: as many time. So I am very proud of us
Speaker 2: for making it today.
Speaker 1: Me too. It's a miracle.
Speaker 2: Well for the very few people who don't already know,
Speaker 2: you are the executive editor at Mama Mia, hosting Mama
Speaker 2: Mia out Loud, canceled, and most recently the Baby Bubble,
Speaker 2: as well as having hosted Hello Bump book Club and
Speaker 2: Once upon a Time, much to my pleasure, True Crime Conversations.
Speaker 1: Yes, I did that for the first probably two years
Speaker 1: I launched it, and I love true crime. I still
Speaker 1: love true crime. But after doing it for a few years,
Speaker 1: you know, I did some fascinating interviews and I learned
Speaker 1: so much, but I felt like I was overstretched, and
Speaker 1: that when there's a project, or when there's a thing
Speaker 1: that you really care about, like that podcast and giving
Speaker 1: the audience quality, then the kindest thing I could do
Speaker 1: for them was to hand it over. And so I've
Speaker 1: handed it over and to watch it just grow under
Speaker 1: hosts that could give it more than I could has
Speaker 1: been such a joy. But like I learned so much
Speaker 1: doing that project.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I'm so obsessed with true crime, and
Speaker 2: I'd love that you've been able to dip your toe
Speaker 2: in so many different things and podcast across many different
Speaker 2: topics within the network during your time. But my favorite
Speaker 2: thing really is that people walk into your life in
Speaker 2: the chapter you're in now, and it's so easy to
Speaker 2: assume that, you know, it's such a prestigious role as
Speaker 2: executive editor, it's easy to assume that it was an
Speaker 2: overnight success, that it happened, you know, in a really smooth,
Speaker 2: straightforward way, that you always knew you wanted to end
Speaker 2: up in the media, and it so rarely actually happens
Speaker 2: that way. We get to hear you speak about so
Speaker 2: many things that are really topical, but raally get to
Speaker 2: hear about, you know, your childhood, or what your earliest
Speaker 2: hopes and dreams were that you ended up studying degrees
Speaker 2: that don't necessarily make sense for a career later on
Speaker 2: in the media. So let's go back to your childhood,
Speaker 2: those early days, your first part time job, you know,
Speaker 2: fourteen and nine months, your school life. I read an
Speaker 2: article you wrote recently about how people's U twelve results
Speaker 2: don't necessarily correlate to later on, but you put other
Speaker 2: peoples in and not your own. I researched and found out.
Speaker 2: It was a ninety eight point five, so I obviously
Speaker 2: started out very academically strong. So yeah, tell us about childhood.
Speaker 1: It's funny that you say fourteen and nine months, because
Speaker 1: I think there are probably two types of teenagers, and
Speaker 1: I was the fourteen and nine months teenager. Definitely wanted
Speaker 1: a job, definitely wanted some independence so that I could
Speaker 1: buy my own clothes from souprey, and I worked at
Speaker 1: a video shop and Boost Juice was the big was
Speaker 1: a big job, and I was never very good at
Speaker 1: any of them because my I think I'm hard working,
Speaker 1: but I think I'm a bit vague. And I remember
Speaker 1: once at Boost, like leaving the till open. I was
Speaker 1: meant to close that night, and I think I counted
Speaker 1: the money, but I left the money in the till
Speaker 1: and left it open. Don't tell Jeanine Alistair and the
Speaker 1: person got there the next morning and like couldn't believe
Speaker 1: that I'd done it. Look, no one stole it. But
Speaker 1: I've just never been good at the basics. And even
Speaker 1: when I started at my mayor a million years later,
Speaker 1: Clare and I laughed that you know, you'd be asked
Speaker 1: to go and get a handful of coffees and we'd
Speaker 1: get all the orders wrong, like and that's just basic
Speaker 1: one oh one attention to detail. There's a real vagueness
Speaker 1: to my brain that I wish I could fix, and
Speaker 1: I'm yet to be able to do it. But I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed that independence, I suppose, And at school I
Speaker 1: certainly wasn't, you know, the smartest in my class or
Speaker 1: like I remember really loving English and history and all
Speaker 1: the essay like subjects. And then it was year eleven
Speaker 1: that I thought Claire and I both thought, what would
Speaker 1: happen if we, you know, tried our hardest, like really
Speaker 1: gave something one hundred percent. And maybe other kids have
Speaker 1: that with sport or with art or with certain hobbies,
Speaker 1: like kids who get really good at an instrument. I
Speaker 1: think it's so important for your self esteem not to
Speaker 1: see if you come first or tenth or whatever, but like,
Speaker 1: what am I capable of if I throw everything at
Speaker 1: this thing? And so Claire and I just got really
Speaker 1: focused and worked hard in year eleven and twelve, and
Speaker 1: more than anything, just loved it. We found the harder
Speaker 1: we worked, the more we enjoyed it. And you know,
Speaker 1: that year was brilliant. It was the first time I'd
Speaker 1: ever felt I guess I felt smart and I I
Speaker 1: felt like that could be one of my things. And
Speaker 1: we went to a school that wasn't selective or you know,
Speaker 1: known for being academic or anything like that. And in
Speaker 1: year twelve, after we did our HC and you know
Speaker 1: how all the special private schools do, like you get
Speaker 1: an estimation of what you're going to get. So all
Speaker 1: our friends across the river, they were like, I know
Speaker 1: I'm going to get above ninety five. I had no
Speaker 1: idea if I was going to get seventy or one hundred, like, no,
Speaker 1: no sense of it. And then it was a few
Speaker 1: weeks before the results came out and I got a
Speaker 1: call on my phone from the Department of Studies being like,
Speaker 1: you have come first in extension history in the state.
Speaker 1: I didn't know there were state rankings. I could not
Speaker 1: believe it. And the extension history class we did wasn't
Speaker 1: a real class. It was six people that met at
Speaker 1: seven o'clock in the morning, and you know, it was
Speaker 1: quite self guided. They almost didn't offer it. And so
Speaker 1: I came first in the state and Claire came fifth, and.
Speaker 2: Just to be clear to everybody, yeah.
Speaker 1: So it was like Claire came fifth in the state
Speaker 1: and still was like, I'm the luger in this family.
Speaker 1: But it was just the weirdest end to the year,
Speaker 1: and there was all this fuss, and Claire and I
Speaker 1: were on the front page of the paper because every
Speaker 1: year they love a twin story because it's always a
Speaker 1: bit weird, the twins that accidentally get the same mark
Speaker 1: or something. And that was a high. But then, like
Speaker 1: a lot of kids who feel like they succeeded in
Speaker 1: year twelve, it was a rude shock. The next five
Speaker 1: or so years were really really hard, and of course
Speaker 1: I think they were actually, you know, more important and
Speaker 1: more character forming than anything before it.
Speaker 2: And I love the article that you wrote about that
Speaker 2: sort of intensity of how we approach our year twelve
Speaker 2: results at the time, and I think it's only getting
Speaker 2: more and more intense for young people each year, and
Speaker 2: the pressure that comes with a trying to do the
Speaker 2: best that you can, but then when you do get
Speaker 2: your score, trying to do you know, as much as
Speaker 2: you can with that score, and there's like a hierarchy
Speaker 2: of jobs, and there's these perceptions of success, and then
Speaker 2: there's you know, there's also the siloing of well, I
Speaker 2: did humanities, so I'm not, you know, a science person,
Speaker 2: so I could never be a scientist if I didn't
Speaker 2: want to. And you know, coming from sort of a
Speaker 2: historical background, you don't automatically think that that translates to journalism, media, podcasting,
Speaker 2: public speaking. You know, it's just so interesting that ultimately
Speaker 2: it doesn't really matter, just at the time you don't
Speaker 2: really know that. So that's why I love hashing through
Speaker 2: like what your relationship was to your concept of success
Speaker 2: and your goals kind of at the time, but before
Speaker 2: we kind of trace through what you actually ended up
Speaker 2: doing with such an incredible academic performance. The twin thing,
Speaker 2: so the fact that they the fact that you've already
Speaker 2: said Claire and I quite a few times, and that
Speaker 2: obviously other people externally are always making a big deal
Speaker 2: about it from your perspective, and this is I probably
Speaker 2: I think you probably have been asked about this more
Speaker 2: than everything else. But what was it like growing up
Speaker 2: as a twin? And are your brothers also twins?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we've got two sets of twins in our family.
Speaker 1: And in that way, like people who weren't twins were weird,
Speaker 1: like in our sense, not only was it. I don't
Speaker 1: know what it's like to not be a twin, but
Speaker 1: I don't know what it's like to grow up with
Speaker 1: anyone who isn't a twin, because in our family Mum
Speaker 1: and Dad were the odd ones out because they didn't
Speaker 1: have a twin, losers, well such losers. So to have
Speaker 1: this built in best friend. And I don't think all
Speaker 1: twins are like this, but for both sets of us.
Speaker 1: And you know, there's also an innate thing of being
Speaker 1: very shy. I see it in my daughter now, there's
Speaker 1: a shyness, and I think that it can make you
Speaker 1: socially maybe a little bit lazy. And you know, whether
Speaker 1: it's your first day kindergarten or your first day of
Speaker 1: year seven, the feeling that everyone else had of taking
Speaker 1: a deep breath and going, I've got to put myself
Speaker 1: out there. I've got to meet people. And those really
Speaker 1: important social skills where you say you know, hi, I'm Sarah.
Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily have to develop those until maybe earlier adulthood,
Speaker 1: where I was known as an individual. But to walk
Speaker 1: into every room in your whole life besides someone, it's
Speaker 1: such a safety blanket, I think, and a privilege, and
Speaker 1: in some ways. You know, in year seven and eight,
Speaker 1: we got quite badly bullied by a few girls, and
Speaker 1: I think that there was a I look back, maybe
Speaker 1: there's something a bit intimidating about twins because they felt
Speaker 1: like the best friend thing was built in and it
Speaker 1: couldn't be infiltrated. So there's this thing with young girls
Speaker 1: where they want their person, like there's this obsession with
Speaker 1: best friends and they want their one per and when
Speaker 1: it couldn't be clear or I, it was quite easy
Speaker 1: to push us out. And so those years were really
Speaker 1: really hard, you know. I remember once we went to
Speaker 1: the movies with a bunch of friends and we're just
Speaker 1: stop to be invited because there'd been all this stuff
Speaker 1: going on. And we got there and they ran away
Speaker 1: and hid, like and they hid and they played this
Speaker 1: practical joke, and so we were at this shopping center like, oh,
Speaker 1: they've they hid from us, And we didn't have phones,
Speaker 1: so we had to call mom on a public phone
Speaker 1: and be like can you come pick us up? Our
Speaker 1: friends hid from us?
Speaker 2: Oh yess.
Speaker 1: And then later we were like, oh, that was really
Speaker 1: mean how you hid from us, And they were like
Speaker 1: it was a joke. You can't take a joke.
Speaker 2: So it's not awful, aren't they awful?
Speaker 1: They're so so awful, And it's like, oh, I just
Speaker 1: think about Learner and hitting those those years like it,
Speaker 1: you know, years on, there's like an impact. I still
Speaker 1: meet certain peaceeople who remind me of this girl in
Speaker 1: year eight, and like this kind of alarm goes off
Speaker 1: in my head. But I mostly just feel so lucky
Speaker 1: that I've had someone to debrief on every single day
Speaker 1: of my life with no judgment and no fear that
Speaker 1: she's going to go anywhere.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that is the most beautiful description I've
Speaker 2: ever heard of twinship, because I feel like, I mean,
Speaker 2: it's so fascinating to anyone who's not a twin. And
Speaker 2: I love that you said it was so normalized for you.
Speaker 2: And I think that's the same with any defining characteristic
Speaker 2: of your childhood, is that in all the ways it's
Speaker 2: different to everyone else. You don't know that, and like
Speaker 2: we don't become aware of that until much later, and
Speaker 2: that's when all the like everything starts to kind of
Speaker 2: go downhill, once we start the comparison and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: I love that you had, firstly, no idea that anyone
Speaker 2: else was different, but that it has been so formative
Speaker 2: and positive in that way, Like it's so sweet because
Speaker 2: I feel like sometimes the dialogue is like the first
Speaker 2: question so many people ask is like have you heard
Speaker 2: a threesome? Do your boyfriend like? And it's like, no,
Speaker 2: I want to know what it was actually like, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: did you guys get you know, frustrated if people would
Speaker 2: confuse you, like in a sense that fraternal twins don't
Speaker 2: get how did it change your identity forming at that age?
Speaker 2: And I love that you are actually close because I
Speaker 2: imagine like at times it could have gone the other way.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember in primary school people used to call
Speaker 1: us the twins or twinies and we hated it, like
Speaker 1: we just felt like we weren't even afforded our own names.
Speaker 1: And it's funny because in adulthood we've kind of re
Speaker 1: embraced that and been like, oh, that's fine, we are
Speaker 1: the twins, maybe because we feel more secure in our
Speaker 1: own identities. But there were moments then, I suppose, and
Speaker 1: maybe maybe same with my brothers, where we felt you
Speaker 1: feel like a bit of a freak show in that way,
Speaker 1: or that people are looking at you and thinking you're
Speaker 1: a bit weird and I didn't love that. And weirdly,
Speaker 1: we didn't have any other twins in our year, ever,
Speaker 1: whereas my brother's had three sets of twins, and I
Speaker 1: think it's probably more common now, but certainly an adulthood,
Speaker 1: I've seen what a gift it is as well. And
Speaker 1: having Claire now has her baby is nearly eleven months old,
Speaker 1: so to have them so close is I didn't realize
Speaker 1: when we will pregnant what that would mean.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's so special, so special, And I'm an awe
Speaker 2: of you as well, because I think that it's already
Speaker 2: such a difficult, like just that chunk of your life,
Speaker 2: those formative years is so hard to figure out who
Speaker 2: you are, and there's so much pressure and so many
Speaker 2: social norms and expectations that kind of start to creep in.
Speaker 2: And we talk so much about like the comparison trap,
Speaker 2: but for you guys there, and I'm always like, well,
Speaker 2: it doesn't really matter because there's no parallel universe. You
Speaker 2: can't compare to the you if you would have done
Speaker 2: something else Whereas you guys, it's like there's this living
Speaker 2: even though you're separate people in other people's estimation it's like, well,
Speaker 2: you know, one of them science he and one of
Speaker 2: them's arety, Like, you know, there is this kind of
Speaker 2: parallel comparison that I can imagine would be kind of
Speaker 2: difficult for people to be like, well, she chose this
Speaker 2: and she chose this, But it's beautiful that you ended
Speaker 2: up both doing the same masters and somehow both ending
Speaker 2: up in the same job and workplace for the same
Speaker 2: nearly ten year period, which is incredible, an incredible testament
Speaker 2: to you both.
Speaker 1: Yes, and we actually studied different things. Claire went on
Speaker 1: and did I saw psychology and could have gone on
Speaker 1: and become a psychologist, like I think that was something
Speaker 1: she was thinking about for a while. And then I
Speaker 1: did a master's in history and gender studies, and then
Speaker 1: we started writing this blog together, which we were just
Speaker 1: having lots of fun doing in twenty twelve, and after
Speaker 1: a few years of doing that, Maya Friedman who owns
Speaker 1: One Maya came across it and reached out to us,
Speaker 1: and I guess that was the dream. But we've never
Speaker 1: really looked forward, Like never, when we started UNI, it
Speaker 1: was never like I want to do this, and then
Speaker 1: when we started at my Mayor, it was never like
Speaker 1: I want to do this. It was very much like
Speaker 1: what do I enjoy doing in this moment. I think
Speaker 1: I'm still a bit like that, and there's definitely no
Speaker 1: five to ten, fifteen year plan, but we've definitely shown
Speaker 1: each other what's possible in different arenas. So I think
Speaker 1: the comparison thing probably has been hard at times where
Speaker 1: one of us, you know, has had a moment of
Speaker 1: success and the other has felt a little bit left out.
Speaker 1: But Claire recently submitted her first manuscript for her first book,
Speaker 1: and I probably I'm not meant to say this, but
Speaker 1: screw it or say it. The acknowledgment at the front
Speaker 1: is just like to Jesse for showing me I could,
Speaker 1: which was so touching because I didn't realize that by
Speaker 1: sitting down and going I'm going to write a book,
Speaker 1: I taught clear that it was possible. Because of course
Speaker 1: there are other women who have done that. For me,
Speaker 1: I would say that watching Holly my co host Don
Speaker 1: mummeir out loud, showed me I could do it. So
Speaker 1: I love that idea that it's like you're just providing
Speaker 1: a bit of a blueprint of how such a big
Speaker 1: project can be done.
Speaker 2: And I think That's why I love this podcast so much,
Speaker 2: is because every different pathway and story that I have
Speaker 2: the privilege to tell, and I am always trying to
Speaker 2: make sure they are as different from each other as possible.
Speaker 2: I hope that is one listener's blueprint for them believing
Speaker 2: they could do that, because it's just a visibility thing
Speaker 2: most of the time that you need to believe someone
Speaker 2: else has done it. And I think there is still
Speaker 2: this romance around when I was five, I wanted to
Speaker 2: go to space, and this was the astronaut that we
Speaker 2: had on a couple of weeks ago. She wanted to
Speaker 2: go to space from her early early childhood and she
Speaker 2: spent her whole life positioning herself to be selected, and
Speaker 2: she became an astronaut and she is now Australia's first astronaut.
Speaker 2: That is astronomically astronomically rare, so rare, and so I
Speaker 2: love that you haven't always had that plan. You haven't
Speaker 2: needed I think the dots connect anyway, but you haven't
Speaker 2: needed to know that necessarily, as you've put one foot
Speaker 2: in front of the.
Speaker 1: Other exactly and sort of going following your nose in
Speaker 1: terms of what interests me and what brings me joy
Speaker 1: and the other stuff will follow. And I've always thought
Speaker 1: as well that and I think it's similar with the
Speaker 1: astronaut aspiration. It's like you can want something and dream
Speaker 1: of something, you don't have to believe you can do
Speaker 1: it yet, Like that's okay. I think that we've got
Speaker 1: this thing of like in order to actually do the thing,
Speaker 1: we think we've got to mentally believe in ourselves. And
Speaker 1: I think that's a a lie. It's like when I
Speaker 1: started writing a book, no part of me believed I
Speaker 1: would finish a book. Yeah, I just prove to myself.
Speaker 1: The belief comes after you do the thing, not before it.
Speaker 1: And so like I think we can get focused on
Speaker 1: kind of eliminating all the self doubt cognitively and it's like,
Speaker 1: just do the thing just like whatever it is. Don't
Speaker 1: think you've got to get into the right head space.
Speaker 1: Same with a podcast, Like if you'd said to you
Speaker 1: years ago, oh, you're going to make this many episodes
Speaker 1: of a podcast, you'd be like, I can't do that.
Speaker 1: I don't have the skills or whatever. But then you
Speaker 1: just develop the skills and you look back and that's
Speaker 1: where the self esteem actually comes from.
Speaker 2: I love that. I often refer to the quote even
Speaker 2: in my own brain when I like, I'm such a
Speaker 2: we become a product of our generation, which is instragratuity.
Speaker 2: And it's like, I have this dream. I want the
Speaker 2: dream tomorrow, like by nine am, like or before close
Speaker 2: a business like at the latest. You know I won't
Speaker 2: I won't wait years for my dream to come true.
Speaker 2: We want everything now, And yeah, I have to remind
Speaker 2: myself like you don't have to see the whole staircase
Speaker 2: to take the first step. You don't need to see
Speaker 2: the end of the story. You just need to start it.
Speaker 2: And the naivety actually often works in your favor because
Speaker 2: if you knew how hard it would be the end like,
Speaker 2: you wouldn't do it. So it's a good thing that
Speaker 2: we all have to start somewhere exactly. This is my
Speaker 2: favorite part of your story that firstly, you didn't necessarily
Speaker 2: study and get qualified in the thing that you ended
Speaker 2: up doing. But secondly, it's very very rare in this
Speaker 2: day and age to find anyone who has worked in
Speaker 2: the same workplace for nearly ten years. That's incredibly unusual.
Speaker 2: But also that you are now an executive editor in
Speaker 2: the workplace where you began. And I loved this description
Speaker 2: of your first job as an editorial assistant, and the
Speaker 2: job description was loading posts. I loaded posts. I was like,
Speaker 2: if there's ever been an example of like started from
Speaker 2: the bottom.
Speaker 1: Now I'm here.
Speaker 2: I was loading posts. Now I'm an executive editor. I
Speaker 2: hadn't climb the ladder.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. And I started by like there would be
Speaker 1: submissions sent to the inbox, and then I wasn't picking
Speaker 1: the submissions. I was then sent them by an editor
Speaker 1: being like, can you load this into the back end.
Speaker 1: So it was really was putting in images and coming
Speaker 1: trying with a headline and SEO and all of that
Speaker 1: kind of that kind of stuff. And then I think
Speaker 1: they actually didn't have that job for a period. So
Speaker 1: there was another job which was basically like filing videos.
Speaker 1: I would go into the back and every video that
Speaker 1: had been done, it was like tag it with relevant terms,
Speaker 1: and I would sit there and tag it and I
Speaker 1: was like, I just like being in this office. And
Speaker 1: sometimes I would load a posts and I would think,
Speaker 1: I think I can write something better than this, Like
Speaker 1: I really I don't think much of myself, but like
Speaker 1: I can do better than this, and so Claire and
Speaker 1: I would stay back and write our own stuff, and
Speaker 1: some of it got up and some of it absolutely didn't.
Speaker 1: And we didn't even have the skills to write a
Speaker 1: news story. I had no idea the structure of a
Speaker 1: news I wouldn't know what the first sentence should be. Nothing.
Speaker 1: I knew how to write nessa. I didn't know how
Speaker 1: to write for the internet. And it was only the
Speaker 1: generosity of other people in the office who were very
Speaker 1: busy and shouldn't have given us the time because that
Speaker 1: was not part of their job to sit down and go,
Speaker 1: this is how you do it, give us a like
Speaker 1: pretty stern feedback about what was and wasn't working, and
Speaker 1: we took that on and learn. I don't even I
Speaker 1: wouldn't even say I was a particularly quick learner with
Speaker 1: that stuff, but I was definitely interested and determined. But
Speaker 1: it took like at least a year or two before
Speaker 1: I was writing for the site. And then an opportunity
Speaker 1: came up on mummeir out Loud. One of the hosts left,
Speaker 1: and I think they wanted a younger voice, so they
Speaker 1: gave me an opportunity. I was appalling to talk about
Speaker 1: Chloe Kardashian story maybe, and I couldn't tell a story
Speaker 1: like I had no idea how to explain how this
Speaker 1: thing happened because I'd never done it before. But for
Speaker 1: some reason, they gave me another go. And I was
Speaker 1: so nervous and so over prepared and like so trying
Speaker 1: to prove how smart I was, and I would just
Speaker 1: you know, they eventually gave me another go, another go,
Speaker 1: and I got the gig and from there it's been
Speaker 1: you know, I think I was maybe weekend editor for
Speaker 1: a while, assistant head of content, and now executive editor.
Speaker 1: Means that I can kind of operate a little bit
Speaker 1: of as an island and do the projects and really
Speaker 1: own the projects that I love, which at the moment
Speaker 1: is podcasting. I just love it.
Speaker 2: Well, you are extraordinary at it, which is amazing. But
Speaker 2: I bet that telling twenty fifteen Jesse, who was you know,
Speaker 2: loading posts, that this is where you'd end up. There's
Speaker 2: just no way that you could possibly conceive of being
Speaker 2: like right at the top of this business where you
Speaker 2: started sort of as such a junior. But before we
Speaker 2: move on to sort of how you can position yourself
Speaker 2: in a business and have that faith to keep trying
Speaker 2: even if you don't feel that you're very good at
Speaker 2: something at the beginning you mentioned just then proving that
Speaker 2: you are really smart. And I think a lot of
Speaker 2: where people go maybe on tangents or diversions or have
Speaker 2: not misguided but have chapters that kind of don't really
Speaker 2: make sense for them, is where they do fall into
Speaker 2: trying to prove things to other people or making decisions
Speaker 2: from ego rather than as you mentioned, just like what
Speaker 2: makes me happy, what's joyful? And I think that is
Speaker 2: trying to prove that you're smart, or getting a really
Speaker 2: good enderscore and feeling like you have to use every
Speaker 2: point on the degree that you choose, and then you
Speaker 2: know you do. You have a bachelor's degree in modern
Speaker 2: history and gender studies and then a master's degree of research,
Speaker 2: which is an incredible, like not overqualification for what you do,
Speaker 2: but it's not necessarily correlating. Yeah, did you ever feel like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm walking away from this kind of very academic investment
Speaker 2: of time, Like how how did you reconcile that?
Speaker 1: Definitely, and that's a pool like that research and feeling
Speaker 1: like I existed in this certain environment there was actually
Speaker 1: definitely and I still sense it from the environment. I
Speaker 1: came from a little bit of eyebrow raising.
Speaker 2: I was gonna ask, yeah, a bit of.
Speaker 1: Like seeing it as a demotion or like you've sold
Speaker 1: out because and this is actually why I found academia flawed,
Speaker 1: which everyone I know who works in academia agrees with me,
Speaker 1: which is that it is very small, very insular. You
Speaker 1: have the most exciting and important research and papers being
Speaker 1: published that are so inexc to anyone outside of the academy,
Speaker 1: and it is an incredible shame because it's really important stuff,
Speaker 1: and there's not enough investment in communicating, Like you can
Speaker 1: do the best research in the world, but if you're
Speaker 1: not able to communicate it to a lot of people,
Speaker 1: then did it ever really get written? And that's what
Speaker 1: I was frustrated by, is that I would write this
Speaker 1: twenty thousand word thesis and I think two people read it.
Speaker 1: And so then when you get on the internet and
Speaker 1: you can write in an hour an article that a
Speaker 1: quarter of a million people read, there is something very
Speaker 1: addictive about that. It's like this this sugar rush, and
Speaker 1: in a way you can get addicted to that and
Speaker 1: see it as more worthwhile, which I don't necessarily think
Speaker 1: it is, and I think there's dangers in that. But
Speaker 1: I also learned with the you know, with thinking you
Speaker 1: need to use everything you know, every mark that you
Speaker 1: got or every degree you have. It's like, every time
Speaker 1: there's an achievement, there's this thing that we do where
Speaker 1: it's like, what's next, what's next, What's next? And the
Speaker 1: pressure and the suffocation of that, and whether it's that
Speaker 1: you've just done really well in your HC or you've
Speaker 1: just had a professional moment. Often those moments are the
Speaker 1: scariest because everyone looks at you and they're like, how
Speaker 1: are you going to back this up? And it's like,
Speaker 1: oh shit, it's never enough, Like I'm never finished. And
Speaker 1: I think I've learned to kind of let go of
Speaker 1: that a little bit now and go, I'm going to
Speaker 1: consolidate some of the projects I'm already on and go
Speaker 1: and do the best job at this podcast that I can.
Speaker 1: But I think that pressure is a real shame because
Speaker 1: you never get to actually celebrate some of those wins.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, totally. It's just the pace of everything is
Speaker 2: so fast as well that you feel like you'll fall
Speaker 2: out of relevance if you pause for like two seconds
Speaker 2: to celebrate the thing that you're actually hard to achieve.
Speaker 2: It's interesting that you did feel a bit of a
Speaker 2: raised eyebrow kind of situation because I found that when
Speaker 2: I left law and started business, but that was very
Speaker 2: heavily eCOM based that it was sort of like, Oh,
Speaker 2: what's that cute little thing you're doing on the internet,
Speaker 2: like social media, and it was it was definitely until
Speaker 2: it started making money and then kind of getting in
Speaker 2: the AFR and stuff like that. It was definitely this little, funny,
Speaker 2: cute little side thing that I was doing. And even
Speaker 2: still though I noticed that, and I've admitted this only
Speaker 2: recently because I only realized recently, but I've said it
Speaker 2: in a few episodes that I still can't drop the
Speaker 2: lawyer turned entrepreneur from my title in my mind because
Speaker 2: I'm like, I just need you to know that I
Speaker 2: did do that thing. Yeah, and I do have that
Speaker 2: side of my personality and I don't do it anymore.
Speaker 2: But and I don't think it was a waste of time,
Speaker 2: but it's just there. It's just still part of everything,
Speaker 2: you know, And it's interesting, I.
Speaker 1: Think, yeah, it's I think as women in any sort
Speaker 1: of media, people are looking for ways to dismiss you
Speaker 1: and call you an idiot, especially if you do anything
Speaker 1: on social media. It's like you are vacuous, you are dumb,
Speaker 1: you are a sellout. So we feel this need to
Speaker 1: like legitimize that, justify that there's actually skill in it
Speaker 1: and that you kind of even building a platform. It's like,
Speaker 1: it's taken a really really long time to do pretty
Speaker 1: much everything in my career, and I I don't know
Speaker 1: if I feel envy, but there are some people who, like,
Speaker 1: you know, do have this, whether it's a breakout book
Speaker 1: or whether it's something go viral and they explode. I
Speaker 1: certainly haven't had that experience. It's been like a really
Speaker 1: slow growth of doing you know, the podcast for a
Speaker 1: lot of years or whatever. And so I do kind
Speaker 1: of feel like, yeah, maybe I've got to justify why
Speaker 1: I have a right to say anything like because and
Speaker 1: I do actually feel that that's part of my identity
Speaker 1: and that we live in a world that is trying
Speaker 1: to deny research and facts and objectivity, which I believe
Speaker 1: very very strongly in and I think it's never been
Speaker 1: more important to argue with data and research. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I certainly feel like you can be very dismissed if
Speaker 1: you're a woman with any kind of profile.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's interesting the subtlety how long it took
Speaker 2: me to realize that's what I was doing as well.
Speaker 2: I just thought it was funny, and now I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: there's some weird psychology going on. I can speak declare
Speaker 2: about that totally. But it's also I think that's another
Speaker 2: reason why I kind of labor over these earlier chapters
Speaker 2: of people's lives, because they don't get as much airtime
Speaker 2: because it's not necessarily what you do right now, but
Speaker 2: it is to remind everyone that you did labor over
Speaker 2: all of the chapters that you've been in to get
Speaker 2: to the position that you're in now. You didn't just
Speaker 2: walk into the host role of one of the bigger
Speaker 2: shows in Australia and know what to do, Like I
Speaker 2: was going back, and your first internship in media was
Speaker 2: like MTV in twenty eleven, and then you've done short
Speaker 2: courses to upskill. So it's and like you said, when
Speaker 2: you first began, you were good at podcasting, And I
Speaker 2: don't think people believe that they can upskill in a
Speaker 2: totally new area. I think they think I've got to
Speaker 2: be good at X or, like I've mentioned earlier, the
Speaker 2: siloing thing, it's like, I'm not academic, so I can't
Speaker 2: do this, Or I'm not creative so I can't do this.
Speaker 2: It's like, or you could just find really good mentors
Speaker 2: and do some short courses and try and see. And
Speaker 2: I feel like you've done that. You've added so many
Speaker 2: strings to your bowl along the way to books, writing
Speaker 2: and producing a TV show. Like it's been this beautiful
Speaker 2: progression of every next level has been a different set
Speaker 2: of skills.
Speaker 1: And in that way, I think it's the only thing
Speaker 1: I think I've done other than And I know it's
Speaker 1: very unpopular to say luck, but I do think that
Speaker 1: luck plays a part. Is that I have said yes.
Speaker 1: I have to my own detriment. I have said yes
Speaker 1: when I probably should have said no. But if someone said, hey,
Speaker 1: do you want to be a weekend writer and that
Speaker 1: means that you work Saturdays and Sundays, I said yes.
Speaker 1: When someone said can you work Christmas Day? I said yes.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say yes now because I think that that
Speaker 1: has shifted. I think I've earned the right to say no.
Speaker 1: But I do not think I would have had any
Speaker 1: of those things, even like the TV or the You
Speaker 1: might get the opportunity to go into a TV spot
Speaker 1: and it's not paid and it's at seven o'clock in
Speaker 1: the morning and it's going to take work. But I
Speaker 1: said yes because it was something I wanted to get
Speaker 1: good at. And I think when you say no to things,
Speaker 1: that's a cost, as long as you know what that
Speaker 1: cost is, like own the no. But I definitely feel
Speaker 1: like being open to a lot of those things has
Speaker 1: helped take me in a very strange direction. And we
Speaker 1: talk at work about a ladder and a lattice, like
Speaker 1: a ladder is just up. And I was on that
Speaker 1: trajectory for a little bit in terms of, oh, will
Speaker 1: you be the head of content or the editor or whatever,
Speaker 1: and I realized I didn't want to do that, and
Speaker 1: so I sidestepped and went, Okay, rather than that, I'm
Speaker 1: going to go and do some TV writing and I'm
Speaker 1: going to write a book and I'm going to do
Speaker 1: some TV spots or whatever. And that made me feel satisfied.
Speaker 1: Rather than being the big boss, I have no desire
Speaker 1: to be anyone's boss. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, So this is one of my favorite realizations
Speaker 2: in the kind of matrix of seizing anyone's Yeah, and
Speaker 2: that is that we spend so much of our journey
Speaker 2: thinking that bigger and further upwards is better, just necessarily,
Speaker 2: like without any other considerations. And same with the hierarchy
Speaker 2: of jobs. We think that quitting corporate and working for
Speaker 2: yourself is better, Like that's because it's romanticized, and or
Speaker 2: being a CEO is better. And like, what I think
Speaker 2: people don't realize is that we are not all built
Speaker 2: the same. The fabric of what lights you up but
Speaker 2: also makes you desperately unhappy, or what is your fear
Speaker 2: versus what is your passion? It looks different for everyone else.
Speaker 2: So we can't all be CEOs and enjoy it. We
Speaker 2: can't all be business owners as enjoy it. And it's
Speaker 2: actually quite normal to think I don't want to be
Speaker 2: my boss or I don't like it's the most empowering
Speaker 2: thing ever, maybe for some people is to say I
Speaker 2: just don't need to progress. I'm happy here, And like,
Speaker 2: I don't think we allow people to have that realization.
Speaker 1: No, I was reading maybe it's Atomic Habits. It's some
Speaker 1: book that I was reading a little while ago that
Speaker 1: said the first thing you should choose rather than like
Speaker 1: how much money I want to make or what job
Speaker 1: do I want to do? Or do I want the promotion?
Speaker 1: Is like what do you want your day to look like?
Speaker 1: And then what do you want your week to look like?
Speaker 1: And then work backwards from there, because I do not
Speaker 1: want my day to look like meetings. I don't want
Speaker 1: my day to look like I'm really bad at any
Speaker 1: sort of confrontation, Like if I was managing someone and
Speaker 1: there was an issue with performance, I just can't. It's
Speaker 1: just not worth how much anxiety it gives me to
Speaker 1: give that feedback. I don't want to be up at
Speaker 1: six and working late, like that's not me, And that's
Speaker 1: been actually more important since I've had a baby to
Speaker 1: go What exactly do you want your days to look like?
Speaker 1: When do you feel most connected to Luna? Like there's
Speaker 1: a threshold at which you lean into work so much
Speaker 1: that you feel disconnected and you're just a nightmare for
Speaker 1: you know everyone around you, and you know the money
Speaker 1: and the promotion and the career goals can all fit
Speaker 1: around it. But if your day is hell, then no
Speaker 1: matter what goals you hit, your unhappy. So that's kind
Speaker 1: of the granular. What I've found going back to has
Speaker 1: really helped me since having a baby.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I often describe it as like
Speaker 2: we all spend our brain like our thinking time and
Speaker 2: goal setting time in the macro like macro my title
Speaker 2: to be or what are my macro goals? And unfortunately,
Speaker 2: if you leave out the micro of what does that
Speaker 2: translate to day to day? That's how people find achieving
Speaker 2: their goal sometimes doesn't feel the way that they thought
Speaker 2: it would because they didn't consider the micro. So I'm
Speaker 2: always like, think about both levels before you decide anything
Speaker 2: in your life.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I totally agree.
Speaker 2: When we had the matchup business, the pressure to get
Speaker 2: into supermarkets was so high because it was like, well,
Speaker 2: instantly you become a multimillion dollar business, and why would
Speaker 2: you not want to you know, ten times your revenue overnight.
Speaker 2: And of course for ages, we invested so much money
Speaker 2: in that process, thinking that was the logical next step,
Speaker 2: and then I realized I left corporate to not do that,
Speaker 2: and this is corporatizing the thing that I created. So
Speaker 2: I could leave the corporate world and I don't want
Speaker 2: to be in a hys best in a factory every
Speaker 2: day like it. But the ego of like realizing it's
Speaker 2: okay to not try for that next big thing is
Speaker 2: I think really really complex.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you've got to create time in your schedule
Speaker 1: to enjoy the big moments like I often, you know,
Speaker 1: whether it's live shows or submitting a book or book publicity.
Speaker 1: It's like that stuff of like reaping the rewards for
Speaker 1: hard work. If that is all done between other hard
Speaker 1: work and you're tired and burnt out and grumpy, then
Speaker 1: none of that is fun. Like and I've had that
Speaker 1: experience of like being in this situation and looking around
Speaker 1: and going, this is a career. I remember going to
Speaker 1: this writer's festival, total career goal. Who I was on
Speaker 1: a panel with, who I got to spend time with,
Speaker 1: And it was traveling and I was in this great
Speaker 1: hotel and I resented every minute of it because I
Speaker 1: wanted to be at home, because I was tired, because
Speaker 1: I had stuff I knew I needed to do between everything.
Speaker 1: And in that way, it's like, what's the point if
Speaker 1: you don't get to have fun at those sorts of moments?
Speaker 1: And maybe that means you write a book every five
Speaker 1: years rather than a book every year, like who says
Speaker 1: you have to write a book every year. Who says
Speaker 1: that you've got to say yes to this, you know,
Speaker 1: incredible opportunity that is going to tire you out so
Speaker 1: much that your marriage suffers like no one. So I, yeah,
Speaker 1: have certainly that's my goal when I get those incredible moments,
Speaker 1: to actually be able to feel them.
Speaker 2: I love that reminder because I think, yeah, we think
Speaker 2: of everything monetarily and don't consider that that quote of
Speaker 2: like if it costs you your peace, it's too expensive,
Speaker 2: so it doesn't really matter what you make from it
Speaker 2: if you're unhappy, Like what's the point. And You've got
Speaker 2: a beautiful chapter in my dear friend Genevieve Day's book
Speaker 2: on the Juggle, and there was something you said that
Speaker 2: I highlighted and scribbled down because I thought it was
Speaker 2: just so valid that you had become ungrateful for objectively
Speaker 2: joyful moments. And I think that's when you know you've
Speaker 2: pushed it too far, when you can't even enjoy the
Speaker 2: good bits, so like why have any bits at all?
Speaker 1: Yes? And then you become I've got a real thing
Speaker 1: about being in moments and thinking I should feel one
Speaker 1: way and not feeling that way, Which is this I
Speaker 1: heard this term recently about emotional perfectionism. I think that's
Speaker 1: what I had that I think my emotion should be
Speaker 1: perfect in every moment, and they're not. And that's been
Speaker 1: a real like relief actually, because you look at like,
Speaker 1: for example, I went and saw Jolly Olderton recently at
Speaker 1: the Opera House, and you look at her in the
Speaker 1: opera House, and she sold out the opera House, and
Speaker 1: she looks gorgeous and what a career. And most people
Speaker 1: in media would look at her and go, that is
Speaker 1: what I want. But my own life has taught me
Speaker 1: you have no idea how she feels you have. It
Speaker 1: can look so glamorous, but she might have had the
Speaker 1: worst day and been slogging over a script that she
Speaker 1: submitted that got rejected, Like you just have no idea,
Speaker 1: And then someone in the audience who's just come here
Speaker 1: and she's been looking forward to it all week is
Speaker 1: probably feeling a lot happier than Dolly on stage, and
Speaker 1: who's the winner there, Like, happiness can't be felt by
Speaker 1: the other people around you who are envious. If you
Speaker 1: think that other people's envy is going to build you up,
Speaker 1: it's not because you can't touch that. So it's I think,
Speaker 1: realizing as well as cliche as it is the tiny,
Speaker 1: tiny joys that bring you just as much happiness, which
Speaker 1: is like, you know, today I'm mostly at home with Luna,
Speaker 1: and it'll be the best day of my week. No
Speaker 1: matter what else happens, it'll be the best day of
Speaker 1: my week. And yeah, that's certainly been a surprise. I think.
Speaker 2: Oh, I love that, and I can't wait to get
Speaker 2: to more on Lunar and oh my goodness, you're sixty
Speaker 2: two and a half hour labor like you will talk
Speaker 2: about proving to yourself that you can do hard things
Speaker 2: in just a moment, but just wrapping up the sort
Speaker 2: of career progression, and particularly the lattice, I love that analogy.
Speaker 2: I think that's such a good visual reminder that it
Speaker 2: doesn't have to just go upwards in the sort of
Speaker 2: complicated matrix, particularly as women that we have, but just
Speaker 2: for anyone really of putting yourself forward for new positions,
Speaker 2: not believing that you can do them, imposter syndrome, self doubt, burnout,
Speaker 2: everything that comes with going, you know, getting promotions and
Speaker 2: putting yourself forward for those things. What has been your
Speaker 2: You mentioned that you're not always thinking you know too
Speaker 2: far ahead? What has been your model for those moves?
Speaker 1: Ea?
Speaker 2: Each of those jumps? Has it been like a mentor
Speaker 2: that you turn to? Like, how do you even know
Speaker 2: that it's time for a new role? How did you
Speaker 2: decide I want to be an author? How did you
Speaker 2: kind of know when the cusp of a new chapter
Speaker 2: was happening?
Speaker 1: I and this is not necessarily a great model, but
Speaker 1: it's true. Is I have used jealousy. So anytime I
Speaker 1: feel jealousy, which I am quite a jealous envious person
Speaker 1: at something I don't like about myself, but every time
Speaker 1: I see it, every time I feel it, I go,
Speaker 1: what is it that you want? And sometimes if I
Speaker 1: look at it really closely and I go, you actually
Speaker 1: don't want that, the jealousy of vaporates, which is great.
Speaker 1: So it's like sometimes I say something and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: you said no to that, you actually don't want to
Speaker 1: do that, and then you go, ah, oh cool, I'm
Speaker 1: actually not jealous. And then other times I go, Okay,
Speaker 1: this person has written a book. Oh, this person wrote
Speaker 1: a fiction book. I've always want to write a fiction book.
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, great, that was clarifying. You want
Speaker 1: to write a fiction book, Well, then do it instead
Speaker 1: of sitting there stewing on how jealous you feel about
Speaker 1: this person or thinking it has anything to do with them,
Speaker 1: because it doesn't. It's just your own like navigation system
Speaker 1: of what's next. And then like I found that with
Speaker 1: television as well, and I think it all builds on
Speaker 1: each other, Like I wouldn't have been able to write
Speaker 1: fiction if I hadn't written nonfiction. That was my putting
Speaker 1: my toe in and going can we write a book
Speaker 1: and playing with narrative, and then going, I think I've
Speaker 1: skilled up to go, Okay, I can write fiction, which
Speaker 1: is dialogue. You learn how to write dialogue and then
Speaker 1: you go all right. I actually do think I can
Speaker 1: write for screen, but there's no way I could have
Speaker 1: started with screen. And in saying that, it's like when
Speaker 1: Claire and I wrote our first episode of something, we
Speaker 1: did not know the program, so it's like everyone was
Speaker 1: sending us, We're like, oh, can we just see you
Speaker 1: like what a script looks like? Because I was like,
Speaker 1: what what do you do?
Speaker 2: Do you write?
Speaker 1: Is the name in capitals? Like I've never I literally
Speaker 1: have on my bookshelf all the succession scripts and I've
Speaker 1: got the script for fleabag and I've got the script
Speaker 1: for normal people, because I was like, I need to
Speaker 1: self teat like I haven't done a course in this.
Speaker 1: I don't know all these people went to UNI to
Speaker 1: go and learn to script write, like I need to
Speaker 1: learn in one day how to write a script. And
Speaker 1: maybe that comes down to like studying, Like I quite
Speaker 1: like that intense getting across something quickly, and a belief
Speaker 1: that if you work hard at something you'll be able
Speaker 1: to do it. Like I have a very strong belief
Speaker 1: in prep that's the only way that I get over nerves.
Speaker 1: Is like if I were to go on stage in
Speaker 1: an hour, I would probably be really nervous because like
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm going to say. But if
Speaker 1: I know what I'm going to say, know how it's
Speaker 1: going to go, and I trust my ability to prepare,
Speaker 1: I don't trust myself. So that I think has been
Speaker 1: a good mantra for me is that like if you
Speaker 1: work hard enough, the imposter syndrome or whatever you want
Speaker 1: to call it will dissipate because you know you've put
Speaker 1: in the hours.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like giving yourself data points to sort of
Speaker 2: rely on exactly. You know, self doubt in Korea and
Speaker 2: upskilling it sort of seems like the biggest thing in
Speaker 2: your entire life until you become a mum, and then
Speaker 2: all the problems you thought you have become very simple
Speaker 2: and they've become really one dimensional compared to sort of
Speaker 2: this whole new thing that you're facing where you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: I thought I knew what the word hard meant until now,
Speaker 2: and I don't even know. I mean, I had a
Speaker 2: C section, so it was like ten minutes and then
Speaker 2: it was just kind of done. But sixty two and
Speaker 2: a half hours, like, tell me you didn't have moments
Speaker 2: of self doubt like I can't do this? What happened?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that was.
Speaker 1: The whole pregnancy, and I got perinatal depression and anxiety
Speaker 1: like I was. I have a total phobia of pain,
Speaker 1: of being stuck, which is kind of what labor is,
Speaker 1: like you are stuck in experience that you can't end.
Speaker 1: Absolutely no belief that I could do that, And it
Speaker 1: didn't matter how many women said they'd done it, because
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, yeah, but you're stronger than me.
Speaker 1: You don't get it. I'm weak, you're strong. I have
Speaker 1: no doubt that you did that. I saw my psychologist
Speaker 1: during it and he said he kind of got to
Speaker 1: the bottom of it and was like, you are scared
Speaker 1: that you're going to die. And I was like, I am.
Speaker 1: I am scared that I'm going to die when I
Speaker 1: give birth, Like I just don't have any faithor in
Speaker 1: my body's ability to do it. And so I actually
Speaker 1: went in initially and said I need to get a
Speaker 1: C section. I'd had a really traumatic experience with pain
Speaker 1: where I had been stuck in pain for a long
Speaker 1: period prior just a year prior, and I was like,
Speaker 1: if I get stuck in pain, I will panic, and
Speaker 1: I really don't want to panic, and I need to
Speaker 1: control what I can. And the obstetrician said, I hear you,
Speaker 1: and if that's the choice you want to make, absolutely,
Speaker 1: but think about it. And he said to me, it's
Speaker 1: one day of your life, which ironically it wasn't. I think,
Speaker 1: let's just keep an eye on this baby and positioning
Speaker 1: and measurements, and I think you'll be surprised. And so
Speaker 1: I did lots of research. I did the birthing classes,
Speaker 1: I read all the books, and I went I think
Speaker 1: this is intant for me to try, like that it
Speaker 1: could be quite a big thing if I'm able to
Speaker 1: do it. And so me and my my twin sister
Speaker 1: both had very very long labors and they just weren't
Speaker 1: progressing and kept getting sent home from hospital and all
Speaker 1: of that. And then I went in. I got an epigeneral.
Speaker 1: They say to wait till you're like, I don't know
Speaker 1: five centimeters. I think I was two, and I was like,
Speaker 1: stick it in. I just I have guys, It's just
Speaker 1: I have no pain for it. I'll just do it.
Speaker 1: And then the actual giving birth is the best experience
Speaker 1: I've ever had, Like I absolutely loved it, and I
Speaker 1: have walked around the world since. And I've been really
Speaker 1: careful about talking about this because you do not earn
Speaker 1: a birth. My twin sister, with the same body had
Speaker 1: a traumatic birth, Like we could not be more identical.
Speaker 1: We prepared exactly the same. I didn't earn anything. But
Speaker 1: even with her traumatic birth, we've both said, you can
Speaker 1: walk around the world a little bit straighter because you're like,
Speaker 1: I cannot believe what my body did, whether that is
Speaker 1: vaginal c section, however that baby comes out, you're like,
Speaker 1: holy shit, Like I didn't know I could grow a
Speaker 1: baby and even like look after it and you feel
Speaker 1: like a baileya every minute of every day. But like
Speaker 1: that to me has given me more self esteem than
Speaker 1: anything I've ever done. Like I just can't believe if
Speaker 1: that baby, who I think is the most perfect thing
Speaker 1: in the world, has anything to do with me, then
Speaker 1: like I am great.
Speaker 2: I am the actual shit, Like the actual shit. I
Speaker 2: think that's just one thing that's amazing about listening to
Speaker 2: you is that in every regard, whether it's like your
Speaker 2: childhood or your career or even giving birth, it's your
Speaker 2: incredible self awareness. And I think the disconnect for a
Speaker 2: lot of people in fulfillment or happiness or whatever you
Speaker 2: want to call it with their life is that they
Speaker 2: don't just really get in touch with like what am
Speaker 2: I good at? What are my incentives? What motivates me?
Speaker 2: What doesn't motivate me? Like you know that you to
Speaker 2: even be able to articulate that you operate from jealousy,
Speaker 2: Like that's a motivator, Like it's you know, you don't
Speaker 2: want to be a jealous person, but the fact that
Speaker 2: you can use that to your advantage, Like all you
Speaker 2: need to know is the fabric that makes up your
Speaker 2: exact composition of like fulfillment and then just build your
Speaker 2: life around it. And I think the problem is that
Speaker 2: people look at other people's fabric and then make decisions
Speaker 2: based on that, and it's like, well, of course horse
Speaker 2: riding wasn't going to make you happy because you hate animals,
Speaker 2: Like that doesn't make sense, you know exactly, And it's
Speaker 2: about that acceptance, Like it's I think being really close
Speaker 2: to your siblings helps because even if you don't have
Speaker 2: self awareness, they will give it to you. Like no
Speaker 2: one will tell me in how many different ways I'm flawed,
Speaker 2: like my family will in a very loving way.
Speaker 1: But I think you're absolutely right. It's like we're very
Speaker 1: quick to see everyone else's issues and neuroses and diagnose
Speaker 1: and narcissism and all of those things that we throw
Speaker 1: around without seeing that we have exactly the same level
Speaker 1: of shit that we're dealing with. And I think self
Speaker 1: awareness gets you a long way. And you know that
Speaker 1: self reflection because I've seen like going and seeing a
Speaker 1: psychologist and that's because I've had years of knowing that
Speaker 1: I'm anxious or having episodes of depression and being able
Speaker 1: to work out why that happens and where I get stuck.
Speaker 1: I can't always see that in the moment, but I
Speaker 1: certainly see the value in untangling it after and sometimes
Speaker 1: if it's writing down. I found writing really good for
Speaker 1: that in terms of processing what's going on. And even
Speaker 1: like after giving birth, it was like I didn't write
Speaker 1: anything to publish, but like I might just write in
Speaker 1: a journal to just understand the complexity of all the feelings. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Wow, And now would you say, I mean like we
Speaker 2: need a whole other episode to talk about the juggle
Speaker 2: and the way that your goal setting, time management, prioritization,
Speaker 2: like self care, all of those things just completely changes
Speaker 2: in such a radical way once you have a baby.
Speaker 2: Now that Luna's sort of sixteen months, did you say, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: how are you feeling in terms of are you full
Speaker 2: pelt back at work? Do you feel like is there
Speaker 2: still the mumfog? Are you like how you feeling with
Speaker 2: the juggle?
Speaker 1: Every like every week since I've had Lunar, I would
Speaker 1: have a different answer still now, like I think it changes.
Speaker 1: Right now, I'm feeling very good because I went away
Speaker 1: with my family last weekend. I have It's funny because
Speaker 1: a lot of what I do is public facing, right,
Speaker 1: So it's like if I'm on a podcast, then my
Speaker 1: friends and family will probably see a video of it
Speaker 1: on Instagram. What you can't see is how many of
Speaker 1: those podcasts I did in one day. So it might
Speaker 1: look like I'm working every day, but I'm absolutely not
Speaker 1: working every day. It's like I try and have at
Speaker 1: least probably one to two days during the week that
Speaker 1: can be lunar days and during her naps. I will,
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's a bit of script writing or
Speaker 1: other projects I'm working on, I will try and get
Speaker 1: that done. But my vision of success has totally changed
Speaker 1: and the cost of what projects Like, I think I
Speaker 1: was very like, very ambitious. I still am very ambitious,
Speaker 1: and I felt to coming back actually because I think
Speaker 1: that for a while the ambition did dull, not in
Speaker 1: a bad way, but I was just very focused on
Speaker 1: as much time as possible with Luna. I'm feeling it
Speaker 1: come back because I simply have more time, and like
Speaker 1: even the difference between my baby and Clare's is that
Speaker 1: she's at an age now where like she'll sit there
Speaker 1: and read her book and like she kind of wants
Speaker 1: a bit of independence, and that might mean that I
Speaker 1: can read a book, or that I can go and
Speaker 1: do like I know that she doesn't. There's just I'm
Speaker 1: feeling more and more independence, I think. So at the moment, yeah,
Speaker 1: I would probably do like I reckon three three and
Speaker 1: a half full days a week of work and then
Speaker 1: around naps try and work however I can. But the
Speaker 1: big thing has been family. I have enormous my mother
Speaker 1: in law, my mum, Like, we have a nanny who
Speaker 1: comes a day a week right now, my father in
Speaker 1: law and Luca's brother is downstairs with lunar like. That
Speaker 1: has been the greatest, the greatest blessing. There is no
Speaker 1: privilege when you have kids like. Family like that has
Speaker 1: just made this experience totally different than it might be
Speaker 1: if I lived regionally or overseas and had no support.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I'm the same. My family lived within
Speaker 2: like four ks or three k's and over every day,
Speaker 2: and I just think on those days where I'm not
Speaker 2: feeling great and i don't feel like I'm getting the
Speaker 2: balance right, I'm just like and I have all that.
Speaker 2: Imagine Yeah, without that, how I would be feeling.
Speaker 1: Even on the days when you don't need the help
Speaker 1: or you don't call in the help. You do know
Speaker 1: it's there, and that's very different. Like imagine not sleeping
Speaker 1: waking up and going there is no one I can call.
Speaker 1: Knowing that there are people you can call is totally
Speaker 1: totally different. Like I just think, yeah, the experience for people,
Speaker 1: I feel like I've always got to preface everything with
Speaker 1: that because I just think i'd have it'd be completely
Speaker 1: different if I didn't have that sort.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm absolutely in the same boat, and it is.
Speaker 2: It does allow a big part of your brain the
Speaker 2: freedom to just enjoy the experience a lot more because
Speaker 2: you're not completely without any break or without any time
Speaker 2: to like miss them. You know, it's like absence makes
Speaker 2: the heart grow fonder with everything. But I think also
Speaker 2: in motherhood it's nice to yeah, I mean, once you
Speaker 2: first get through that first kind of bit, to be
Speaker 2: able to start to miss them and then be so
Speaker 2: excited when you get to get to see them again.
Speaker 1: Exactly and to know that, you know, I get up
Speaker 1: and have this great I get to do breakfast and
Speaker 1: we hang out in the morning and we have this
Speaker 1: great time before my mom comes and seeing her face
Speaker 1: light up when she sees my mom or Luca's mom
Speaker 1: is just the greatest joy. And then I get to
Speaker 1: run in the door like after work, and I've never
Speaker 1: run high from work before. I just am so keen
Speaker 1: to get back, and I feel like that helps me
Speaker 1: to appreciate it, like it's it's just so so much fun.
Speaker 1: And to see other people what they see in your baby,
Speaker 1: to have that shared and to just all of you
Speaker 1: marvel at this baby together is like, yeah, it's how
Speaker 1: our ancestors did it. And I just the loneliness that
Speaker 1: and I think you feel loneliness regardless, but yeah, it's
Speaker 1: definitely different when you've got a real support network.
Speaker 2: Well, Jesse, I know today is a lunar day and
Speaker 2: I don't want to take any more of your precious time,
Speaker 2: but I feel like I could. I've there's so many
Speaker 2: things I want to talk. We didn't even touch on strife.
Speaker 2: We hardly even got into your books. But I'll include
Speaker 2: links to everything in the show notes. And of course
Speaker 2: I don't think I need to link one mayor out
Speaker 2: loud or any of the shows because I feel like
Speaker 2: everyone will already know what they are, but just in case,
Speaker 2: I will make sure to include all that. But thank
Speaker 2: you so much for your time. It's been such a joy.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you for having me, and I've really
Speaker 1: enjoyed listening to your podcast and seeing all your work
Speaker 1: and the community that you've built. So thank you for
Speaker 1: everything you've done.
Speaker 2: Like I said at the start of this conversation, this
Speaker 2: was actually the first time I'd ever sat down to
Speaker 2: chat with Jesse, and yet somehow I feel like we
Speaker 2: had been friends for a million years. I could tell
Speaker 2: her pretty much anything, my deepest, darkest fears, all my vulnerabilities.
Speaker 2: She's just one of those warm, intelligent, articulate people that
Speaker 2: you just can't hear enough of. I could have chatted
Speaker 2: to her for hours and probably will have her back
Speaker 2: on the show at some point. Definitely going to go
Speaker 2: and reread her two books. If you don't follow her already,
Speaker 2: you absolutely should. I suspect most of you probably already do.
Speaker 2: But in case you don't, I will pop the link
Speaker 2: to her page in the show notes, as well as
Speaker 2: the link to the shows she hosts on Mamma Maya
Speaker 2: and her two beautiful books. In the meantime, I hope
Speaker 2: you guys are having a wonderful week. The silly season
Speaker 2: isn't too silly too quickly. I feel like it's starting
Speaker 2: earlier and early every year. It is absolutely wild, but
Speaker 2: I hope you're all looking after yourselves and seizing U
Speaker 2: A h