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Speaker 1: Happiness can't be felt by the other people around you

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Speaker 1: who are envious. If you think that other people's envy

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Speaker 1: is going to build you up, it's not because you

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Speaker 1: can't touch that. Like who says you have to write

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Speaker 1: a book every year, who says that you've got to

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Speaker 1: say yes to this incredible opportunity that is going to

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Speaker 1: tire you out so much that your marriage suffers. That's

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Speaker 1: my goal when I get those incredible moments to actually

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Speaker 1: be able to feel them.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy

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Speaker 2: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 2: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 2: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 2: one way. So this is a platform to hear and

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Speaker 2: explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore,

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Speaker 2: the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst day

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Speaker 2: will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm

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Speaker 2: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned

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Speaker 2: entrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found

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Speaker 2: matcha Maiden and matcham Milk Bark Cca is a series

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Speaker 2: of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring

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Speaker 2: the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. Yahborhood,

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Speaker 2: we are back with a guest episode for you, and

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Speaker 2: I'm thrilled to have one of Australia's most known and

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Speaker 2: loved voices on the show this week, the inimitable Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: Many of you will probably recognize Jesse, or at least

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Speaker 2: recognize her voice as one of the hosts of the

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Speaker 2: chart topping podcast Mamma Mia Out Loud, among many other

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Speaker 2: shows in the prolific Mamma Mea network of which Jesse

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Speaker 2: is also an executive editor and which we, you may

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Speaker 2: have noticed, are so excited to have joined recently in

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Speaker 2: a brand new chapter for Cca. While Jesse is now

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Speaker 2: dominating the airwaves and has also authored two incredible books,

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Speaker 2: you may not know that she actually began as a

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Speaker 2: very junior Burger editorial assistant a decade ago at Mamma

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Speaker 2: Maya and worked her way up the ranks to become

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Speaker 2: one of the few people who can say that they've

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Speaker 2: been in the one workplace for ten years, an example

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Speaker 2: that you don't have to leave your job or leave

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Speaker 2: your workplace to grow and find new Yea's and one

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Speaker 2: of the coolest parts of this story. Jesse is an

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Speaker 2: executive editor at Mumma Mia alongside her twin sister, Claire Stevens,

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Speaker 2: another of Australia's most known and loved voices that you

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Speaker 2: will likely recognize. They both study different things in their

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Speaker 2: undergraduate but then went on to complete a master's of

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Speaker 2: research left academia, began as editorial assistants together at Mamma Maya,

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Speaker 2: and they have worked their way up in different but

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Speaker 2: parallel ways. And the two also have not just brothers,

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Speaker 2: twin brothers. That's two sets in one family. So it

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Speaker 2: was fascinating to learn about such a unique and special

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Speaker 2: facet to her path.

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Speaker 1: Yea.

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Speaker 2: Jesse is also just a little bit ahead of me

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Speaker 2: as a working mum and such a great source of inspiration,

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Speaker 2: having lent her wisdom on the Juggle on a chapter

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Speaker 2: of The Juggle, the book by my dear friend and

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Speaker 2: manager Genevieve Day, who you've heard from just a couple

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Speaker 2: of episodes ago in our Caesar Baby episode. Despite having

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Speaker 2: many mutual friends and working in some of the same circles,

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Speaker 2: I'd actually never chatted to Jesse before, but you would

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Speaker 2: never know because she is such an incredible conversationalist, and

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Speaker 2: I hope that you guys enjoy this one as much

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Speaker 2: as I did. Jesse Stevens, Welcome to CZA.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I'm very excited.

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited that we made it through multiple reschedules

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Speaker 2: to sit down and record today, being in similar chapters

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Speaker 2: of juggling motherhood with work, and that you just completely

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Speaker 2: understood the logistical challenges of recording. But I'm also excited because,

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Speaker 2: of course, you were a voice that most of Australia

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Speaker 2: already knows and loves. Executive editor and host at Mama Mia,

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Speaker 2: which is a family CZA is so thrilled to have

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Speaker 2: recently joined. So absolutely delighted to have you today.

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Speaker 1: It's the relief of having when you have been unreliable

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Speaker 1: in terms of I have to reschedule because babysitting issue, work, whatever,

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Speaker 1: the relief of having someone else cancel the next one

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Speaker 1: is just so good. All my guilt evaporates and I'm like, yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm not the only one who stuffed up this scheduling,

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Speaker 1: so I quite like that. I feel like you genuinely

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Speaker 1: didn't judge me.

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Speaker 2: Oh, only because I knew I would also reschedule just

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Speaker 2: as many time. So I am very proud of us

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Speaker 2: for making it today.

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Speaker 1: Me too. It's a miracle.

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Speaker 2: Well for the very few people who don't already know,

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Speaker 2: you are the executive editor at Mama Mia, hosting Mama

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Speaker 2: Mia out Loud, canceled, and most recently the Baby Bubble,

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Speaker 2: as well as having hosted Hello Bump book Club and

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Speaker 2: Once upon a Time, much to my pleasure, True Crime Conversations.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I did that for the first probably two years

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Speaker 1: I launched it, and I love true crime. I still

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Speaker 1: love true crime. But after doing it for a few years,

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Speaker 1: you know, I did some fascinating interviews and I learned

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Speaker 1: so much, but I felt like I was overstretched, and

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Speaker 1: that when there's a project, or when there's a thing

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Speaker 1: that you really care about, like that podcast and giving

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Speaker 1: the audience quality, then the kindest thing I could do

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Speaker 1: for them was to hand it over. And so I've

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Speaker 1: handed it over and to watch it just grow under

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Speaker 1: hosts that could give it more than I could has

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Speaker 1: been such a joy. But like I learned so much

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Speaker 1: doing that project.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I'm so obsessed with true crime, and

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Speaker 2: I'd love that you've been able to dip your toe

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Speaker 2: in so many different things and podcast across many different

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Speaker 2: topics within the network during your time. But my favorite

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Speaker 2: thing really is that people walk into your life in

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Speaker 2: the chapter you're in now, and it's so easy to

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Speaker 2: assume that, you know, it's such a prestigious role as

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Speaker 2: executive editor, it's easy to assume that it was an

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Speaker 2: overnight success, that it happened, you know, in a really smooth,

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Speaker 2: straightforward way, that you always knew you wanted to end

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Speaker 2: up in the media, and it so rarely actually happens

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Speaker 2: that way. We get to hear you speak about so

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Speaker 2: many things that are really topical, but raally get to

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Speaker 2: hear about, you know, your childhood, or what your earliest

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Speaker 2: hopes and dreams were that you ended up studying degrees

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Speaker 2: that don't necessarily make sense for a career later on

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Speaker 2: in the media. So let's go back to your childhood,

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Speaker 2: those early days, your first part time job, you know,

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Speaker 2: fourteen and nine months, your school life. I read an

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Speaker 2: article you wrote recently about how people's U twelve results

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Speaker 2: don't necessarily correlate to later on, but you put other

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Speaker 2: peoples in and not your own. I researched and found out.

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Speaker 2: It was a ninety eight point five, so I obviously

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Speaker 2: started out very academically strong. So yeah, tell us about childhood.

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Speaker 1: It's funny that you say fourteen and nine months, because

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Speaker 1: I think there are probably two types of teenagers, and

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Speaker 1: I was the fourteen and nine months teenager. Definitely wanted

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Speaker 1: a job, definitely wanted some independence so that I could

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Speaker 1: buy my own clothes from souprey, and I worked at

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Speaker 1: a video shop and Boost Juice was the big was

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Speaker 1: a big job, and I was never very good at

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Speaker 1: any of them because my I think I'm hard working,

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Speaker 1: but I think I'm a bit vague. And I remember

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Speaker 1: once at Boost, like leaving the till open. I was

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Speaker 1: meant to close that night, and I think I counted

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Speaker 1: the money, but I left the money in the till

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Speaker 1: and left it open. Don't tell Jeanine Alistair and the

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Speaker 1: person got there the next morning and like couldn't believe

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Speaker 1: that I'd done it. Look, no one stole it. But

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Speaker 1: I've just never been good at the basics. And even

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Speaker 1: when I started at my mayor a million years later,

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Speaker 1: Clare and I laughed that you know, you'd be asked

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Speaker 1: to go and get a handful of coffees and we'd

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Speaker 1: get all the orders wrong, like and that's just basic

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Speaker 1: one oh one attention to detail. There's a real vagueness

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Speaker 1: to my brain that I wish I could fix, and

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Speaker 1: I'm yet to be able to do it. But I

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Speaker 1: really enjoyed that independence, I suppose, And at school I

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Speaker 1: certainly wasn't, you know, the smartest in my class or

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Speaker 1: like I remember really loving English and history and all

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Speaker 1: the essay like subjects. And then it was year eleven

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Speaker 1: that I thought Claire and I both thought, what would

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Speaker 1: happen if we, you know, tried our hardest, like really

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Speaker 1: gave something one hundred percent. And maybe other kids have

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Speaker 1: that with sport or with art or with certain hobbies,

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Speaker 1: like kids who get really good at an instrument. I

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Speaker 1: think it's so important for your self esteem not to

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Speaker 1: see if you come first or tenth or whatever, but like,

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Speaker 1: what am I capable of if I throw everything at

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Speaker 1: this thing? And so Claire and I just got really

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Speaker 1: focused and worked hard in year eleven and twelve, and

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Speaker 1: more than anything, just loved it. We found the harder

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Speaker 1: we worked, the more we enjoyed it. And you know,

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Speaker 1: that year was brilliant. It was the first time I'd

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Speaker 1: ever felt I guess I felt smart and I I

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Speaker 1: felt like that could be one of my things. And

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Speaker 1: we went to a school that wasn't selective or you know,

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Speaker 1: known for being academic or anything like that. And in

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Speaker 1: year twelve, after we did our HC and you know

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Speaker 1: how all the special private schools do, like you get

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Speaker 1: an estimation of what you're going to get. So all

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Speaker 1: our friends across the river, they were like, I know

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Speaker 1: I'm going to get above ninety five. I had no

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Speaker 1: idea if I was going to get seventy or one hundred, like, no,

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Speaker 1: no sense of it. And then it was a few

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Speaker 1: weeks before the results came out and I got a

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Speaker 1: call on my phone from the Department of Studies being like,

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Speaker 1: you have come first in extension history in the state.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know there were state rankings. I could not

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Speaker 1: believe it. And the extension history class we did wasn't

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Speaker 1: a real class. It was six people that met at

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Speaker 1: seven o'clock in the morning, and you know, it was

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Speaker 1: quite self guided. They almost didn't offer it. And so

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Speaker 1: I came first in the state and Claire came fifth, and.

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Speaker 2: Just to be clear to everybody, yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it was like Claire came fifth in the state

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Speaker 1: and still was like, I'm the luger in this family.

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Speaker 1: But it was just the weirdest end to the year,

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Speaker 1: and there was all this fuss, and Claire and I

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Speaker 1: were on the front page of the paper because every

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Speaker 1: year they love a twin story because it's always a

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Speaker 1: bit weird, the twins that accidentally get the same mark

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Speaker 1: or something. And that was a high. But then, like

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Speaker 1: a lot of kids who feel like they succeeded in

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Speaker 1: year twelve, it was a rude shock. The next five

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Speaker 1: or so years were really really hard, and of course

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Speaker 1: I think they were actually, you know, more important and

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Speaker 1: more character forming than anything before it.

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Speaker 2: And I love the article that you wrote about that

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Speaker 2: sort of intensity of how we approach our year twelve

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Speaker 2: results at the time, and I think it's only getting

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Speaker 2: more and more intense for young people each year, and

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Speaker 2: the pressure that comes with a trying to do the

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Speaker 2: best that you can, but then when you do get

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Speaker 2: your score, trying to do you know, as much as

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Speaker 2: you can with that score, and there's like a hierarchy

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Speaker 2: of jobs, and there's these perceptions of success, and then

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Speaker 2: there's you know, there's also the siloing of well, I

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Speaker 2: did humanities, so I'm not, you know, a science person,

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Speaker 2: so I could never be a scientist if I didn't

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Speaker 2: want to. And you know, coming from sort of a

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Speaker 2: historical background, you don't automatically think that that translates to journalism, media, podcasting,

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Speaker 2: public speaking. You know, it's just so interesting that ultimately

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Speaker 2: it doesn't really matter, just at the time you don't

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Speaker 2: really know that. So that's why I love hashing through

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Speaker 2: like what your relationship was to your concept of success

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Speaker 2: and your goals kind of at the time, but before

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Speaker 2: we kind of trace through what you actually ended up

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Speaker 2: doing with such an incredible academic performance. The twin thing,

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Speaker 2: so the fact that they the fact that you've already

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Speaker 2: said Claire and I quite a few times, and that

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Speaker 2: obviously other people externally are always making a big deal

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Speaker 2: about it from your perspective, and this is I probably

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Speaker 2: I think you probably have been asked about this more

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Speaker 2: than everything else. But what was it like growing up

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Speaker 2: as a twin? And are your brothers also twins?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we've got two sets of twins in our family.

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Speaker 1: And in that way, like people who weren't twins were weird,

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Speaker 1: like in our sense, not only was it. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what it's like to not be a twin, but

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Speaker 1: I don't know what it's like to grow up with

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Speaker 1: anyone who isn't a twin, because in our family Mum

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Speaker 1: and Dad were the odd ones out because they didn't

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Speaker 1: have a twin, losers, well such losers. So to have

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Speaker 1: this built in best friend. And I don't think all

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Speaker 1: twins are like this, but for both sets of us.

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Speaker 1: And you know, there's also an innate thing of being

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Speaker 1: very shy. I see it in my daughter now, there's

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Speaker 1: a shyness, and I think that it can make you

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Speaker 1: socially maybe a little bit lazy. And you know, whether

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Speaker 1: it's your first day kindergarten or your first day of

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Speaker 1: year seven, the feeling that everyone else had of taking

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Speaker 1: a deep breath and going, I've got to put myself

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Speaker 1: out there. I've got to meet people. And those really

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Speaker 1: important social skills where you say you know, hi, I'm Sarah.

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Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily have to develop those until maybe earlier adulthood,

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Speaker 1: where I was known as an individual. But to walk

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Speaker 1: into every room in your whole life besides someone, it's

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Speaker 1: such a safety blanket, I think, and a privilege, and

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Speaker 1: in some ways. You know, in year seven and eight,

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Speaker 1: we got quite badly bullied by a few girls, and

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Speaker 1: I think that there was a I look back, maybe

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Speaker 1: there's something a bit intimidating about twins because they felt

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Speaker 1: like the best friend thing was built in and it

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Speaker 1: couldn't be infiltrated. So there's this thing with young girls

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Speaker 1: where they want their person, like there's this obsession with

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Speaker 1: best friends and they want their one per and when

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Speaker 1: it couldn't be clear or I, it was quite easy

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Speaker 1: to push us out. And so those years were really

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Speaker 1: really hard, you know. I remember once we went to

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Speaker 1: the movies with a bunch of friends and we're just

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Speaker 1: stop to be invited because there'd been all this stuff

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Speaker 1: going on. And we got there and they ran away

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Speaker 1: and hid, like and they hid and they played this

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Speaker 1: practical joke, and so we were at this shopping center like, oh,

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Speaker 1: they've they hid from us, And we didn't have phones,

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Speaker 1: so we had to call mom on a public phone

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Speaker 1: and be like can you come pick us up? Our

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Speaker 1: friends hid from us?

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Speaker 2: Oh yess.

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Speaker 1: And then later we were like, oh, that was really

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Speaker 1: mean how you hid from us, And they were like

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Speaker 1: it was a joke. You can't take a joke.

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Speaker 2: So it's not awful, aren't they awful?

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Speaker 1: They're so so awful, And it's like, oh, I just

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Speaker 1: think about Learner and hitting those those years like it,

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Speaker 1: you know, years on, there's like an impact. I still

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Speaker 1: meet certain peaceeople who remind me of this girl in

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Speaker 1: year eight, and like this kind of alarm goes off

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Speaker 1: in my head. But I mostly just feel so lucky

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Speaker 1: that I've had someone to debrief on every single day

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Speaker 1: of my life with no judgment and no fear that

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Speaker 1: she's going to go anywhere.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that is the most beautiful description I've

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Speaker 2: ever heard of twinship, because I feel like, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's so fascinating to anyone who's not a twin. And

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Speaker 2: I love that you said it was so normalized for you.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's the same with any defining characteristic

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Speaker 2: of your childhood, is that in all the ways it's

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Speaker 2: different to everyone else. You don't know that, and like

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Speaker 2: we don't become aware of that until much later, and

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Speaker 2: that's when all the like everything starts to kind of

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Speaker 2: go downhill, once we start the comparison and all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: I love that you had, firstly, no idea that anyone

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Speaker 2: else was different, but that it has been so formative

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Speaker 2: and positive in that way, Like it's so sweet because

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Speaker 2: I feel like sometimes the dialogue is like the first

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Speaker 2: question so many people ask is like have you heard

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Speaker 2: a threesome? Do your boyfriend like? And it's like, no,

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Speaker 2: I want to know what it was actually like, like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: did you guys get you know, frustrated if people would

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Speaker 2: confuse you, like in a sense that fraternal twins don't

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Speaker 2: get how did it change your identity forming at that age?

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Speaker 2: And I love that you are actually close because I

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Speaker 2: imagine like at times it could have gone the other way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember in primary school people used to call

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Speaker 1: us the twins or twinies and we hated it, like

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Speaker 1: we just felt like we weren't even afforded our own names.

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Speaker 1: And it's funny because in adulthood we've kind of re

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Speaker 1: embraced that and been like, oh, that's fine, we are

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Speaker 1: the twins, maybe because we feel more secure in our

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Speaker 1: own identities. But there were moments then, I suppose, and

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe same with my brothers, where we felt you

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Speaker 1: feel like a bit of a freak show in that way,

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Speaker 1: or that people are looking at you and thinking you're

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Speaker 1: a bit weird and I didn't love that. And weirdly,

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Speaker 1: we didn't have any other twins in our year, ever,

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Speaker 1: whereas my brother's had three sets of twins, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's probably more common now, but certainly an adulthood,

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Speaker 1: I've seen what a gift it is as well. And

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Speaker 1: having Claire now has her baby is nearly eleven months old,

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Speaker 1: so to have them so close is I didn't realize

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Speaker 1: when we will pregnant what that would mean.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's so special, so special, And I'm an awe

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Speaker 2: of you as well, because I think that it's already

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Speaker 2: such a difficult, like just that chunk of your life,

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Speaker 2: those formative years is so hard to figure out who

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Speaker 2: you are, and there's so much pressure and so many

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Speaker 2: social norms and expectations that kind of start to creep in.

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Speaker 2: And we talk so much about like the comparison trap,

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Speaker 2: but for you guys there, and I'm always like, well,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't really matter because there's no parallel universe. You

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Speaker 2: can't compare to the you if you would have done

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Speaker 2: something else Whereas you guys, it's like there's this living

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Speaker 2: even though you're separate people in other people's estimation it's like, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, one of them science he and one of

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Speaker 2: them's arety, Like, you know, there is this kind of

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Speaker 2: parallel comparison that I can imagine would be kind of

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Speaker 2: difficult for people to be like, well, she chose this

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Speaker 2: and she chose this, But it's beautiful that you ended

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Speaker 2: up both doing the same masters and somehow both ending

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Speaker 2: up in the same job and workplace for the same

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Speaker 2: nearly ten year period, which is incredible, an incredible testament

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Speaker 2: to you both.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and we actually studied different things. Claire went on

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Speaker 1: and did I saw psychology and could have gone on

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Speaker 1: and become a psychologist, like I think that was something

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Speaker 1: she was thinking about for a while. And then I

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Speaker 1: did a master's in history and gender studies, and then

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Speaker 1: we started writing this blog together, which we were just

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Speaker 1: having lots of fun doing in twenty twelve, and after

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Speaker 1: a few years of doing that, Maya Friedman who owns

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Speaker 1: One Maya came across it and reached out to us,

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Speaker 1: and I guess that was the dream. But we've never

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Speaker 1: really looked forward, Like never, when we started UNI, it

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Speaker 1: was never like I want to do this, and then

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Speaker 1: when we started at my Mayor, it was never like

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Speaker 1: I want to do this. It was very much like

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Speaker 1: what do I enjoy doing in this moment. I think

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Speaker 1: I'm still a bit like that, and there's definitely no

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Speaker 1: five to ten, fifteen year plan, but we've definitely shown

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Speaker 1: each other what's possible in different arenas. So I think

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Speaker 1: the comparison thing probably has been hard at times where

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Speaker 1: one of us, you know, has had a moment of

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Speaker 1: success and the other has felt a little bit left out.

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Speaker 1: But Claire recently submitted her first manuscript for her first book,

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Speaker 1: and I probably I'm not meant to say this, but

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Speaker 1: screw it or say it. The acknowledgment at the front

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Speaker 1: is just like to Jesse for showing me I could,

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Speaker 1: which was so touching because I didn't realize that by

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Speaker 1: sitting down and going I'm going to write a book,

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Speaker 1: I taught clear that it was possible. Because of course

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Speaker 1: there are other women who have done that. For me,

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Speaker 1: I would say that watching Holly my co host Don

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Speaker 1: mummeir out loud, showed me I could do it. So

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Speaker 1: I love that idea that it's like you're just providing

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Speaker 1: a bit of a blueprint of how such a big

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Speaker 1: project can be done.

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Speaker 2: And I think That's why I love this podcast so much,

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Speaker 2: is because every different pathway and story that I have

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Speaker 2: the privilege to tell, and I am always trying to

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Speaker 2: make sure they are as different from each other as possible.

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Speaker 2: I hope that is one listener's blueprint for them believing

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Speaker 2: they could do that, because it's just a visibility thing

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Speaker 2: most of the time that you need to believe someone

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Speaker 2: else has done it. And I think there is still

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Speaker 2: this romance around when I was five, I wanted to

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Speaker 2: go to space, and this was the astronaut that we

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Speaker 2: had on a couple of weeks ago. She wanted to

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Speaker 2: go to space from her early early childhood and she

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Speaker 2: spent her whole life positioning herself to be selected, and

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Speaker 2: she became an astronaut and she is now Australia's first astronaut.

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Speaker 2: That is astronomically astronomically rare, so rare, and so I

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Speaker 2: love that you haven't always had that plan. You haven't

396
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Speaker 2: needed I think the dots connect anyway, but you haven't

397
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Speaker 2: needed to know that necessarily, as you've put one foot

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Speaker 2: in front of the.

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Speaker 1: Other exactly and sort of going following your nose in

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Speaker 1: terms of what interests me and what brings me joy

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Speaker 1: and the other stuff will follow. And I've always thought

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Speaker 1: as well that and I think it's similar with the

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Speaker 1: astronaut aspiration. It's like you can want something and dream

404
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Speaker 1: of something, you don't have to believe you can do

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Speaker 1: it yet, Like that's okay. I think that we've got

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Speaker 1: this thing of like in order to actually do the thing,

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Speaker 1: we think we've got to mentally believe in ourselves. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's a a lie. It's like when I

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Speaker 1: started writing a book, no part of me believed I

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Speaker 1: would finish a book. Yeah, I just prove to myself.

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Speaker 1: The belief comes after you do the thing, not before it.

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Speaker 1: And so like I think we can get focused on

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Speaker 1: kind of eliminating all the self doubt cognitively and it's like,

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Speaker 1: just do the thing just like whatever it is. Don't

415
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Speaker 1: think you've got to get into the right head space.

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Speaker 1: Same with a podcast, Like if you'd said to you

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Speaker 1: years ago, oh, you're going to make this many episodes

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Speaker 1: of a podcast, you'd be like, I can't do that.

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Speaker 1: I don't have the skills or whatever. But then you

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Speaker 1: just develop the skills and you look back and that's

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Speaker 1: where the self esteem actually comes from.

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Speaker 2: I love that. I often refer to the quote even

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Speaker 2: in my own brain when I like, I'm such a

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Speaker 2: we become a product of our generation, which is instragratuity.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, I have this dream. I want the

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Speaker 2: dream tomorrow, like by nine am, like or before close

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Speaker 2: a business like at the latest. You know I won't

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Speaker 2: I won't wait years for my dream to come true.

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Speaker 2: We want everything now, And yeah, I have to remind

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Speaker 2: myself like you don't have to see the whole staircase

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Speaker 2: to take the first step. You don't need to see

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Speaker 2: the end of the story. You just need to start it.

433
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 2: And the naivety actually often works in your favor because

434
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: if you knew how hard it would be the end like,

435
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 2: you wouldn't do it. So it's a good thing that

436
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 2: we all have to start somewhere exactly. This is my

437
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 2: favorite part of your story that firstly, you didn't necessarily

438
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 2: study and get qualified in the thing that you ended

439
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 2: up doing. But secondly, it's very very rare in this

440
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,679
Speaker 2: day and age to find anyone who has worked in

441
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 2: the same workplace for nearly ten years. That's incredibly unusual.

442
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,959
Speaker 2: But also that you are now an executive editor in

443
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: the workplace where you began. And I loved this description

444
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: of your first job as an editorial assistant, and the

445
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 2: job description was loading posts. I loaded posts. I was like,

446
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 2: if there's ever been an example of like started from

447
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: the bottom.

448
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: Now I'm here.

449
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 2: I was loading posts. Now I'm an executive editor. I

450
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 2: hadn't climb the ladder.

451
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. And I started by like there would be

452
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 1: submissions sent to the inbox, and then I wasn't picking

453
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: the submissions. I was then sent them by an editor

454
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: being like, can you load this into the back end.

455
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,959
Speaker 1: So it was really was putting in images and coming

456
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 1: trying with a headline and SEO and all of that

457
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: kind of that kind of stuff. And then I think

458
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: they actually didn't have that job for a period. So

459
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 1: there was another job which was basically like filing videos.

460
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: I would go into the back and every video that

461
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: had been done, it was like tag it with relevant terms,

462
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 1: and I would sit there and tag it and I

463
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: was like, I just like being in this office. And

464
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 1: sometimes I would load a posts and I would think,

465
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: I think I can write something better than this, Like

466
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: I really I don't think much of myself, but like

467
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: I can do better than this, and so Claire and

468
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: I would stay back and write our own stuff, and

469
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: some of it got up and some of it absolutely didn't.

470
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: And we didn't even have the skills to write a

471
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 1: news story. I had no idea the structure of a

472
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: news I wouldn't know what the first sentence should be. Nothing.

473
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: I knew how to write nessa. I didn't know how

474
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: to write for the internet. And it was only the

475
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: generosity of other people in the office who were very

476
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: busy and shouldn't have given us the time because that

477
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 1: was not part of their job to sit down and go,

478
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: this is how you do it, give us a like

479
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: pretty stern feedback about what was and wasn't working, and

480
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: we took that on and learn. I don't even I

481
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 1: wouldn't even say I was a particularly quick learner with

482
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: that stuff, but I was definitely interested and determined. But

483
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: it took like at least a year or two before

484
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: I was writing for the site. And then an opportunity

485
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: came up on mummeir out Loud. One of the hosts left,

486
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 1: and I think they wanted a younger voice, so they

487
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: gave me an opportunity. I was appalling to talk about

488
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 1: Chloe Kardashian story maybe, and I couldn't tell a story

489
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: like I had no idea how to explain how this

490
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 1: thing happened because I'd never done it before. But for

491
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: some reason, they gave me another go. And I was

492
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: so nervous and so over prepared and like so trying

493
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: to prove how smart I was, and I would just

494
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: you know, they eventually gave me another go, another go,

495
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: and I got the gig and from there it's been

496
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: you know, I think I was maybe weekend editor for

497
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: a while, assistant head of content, and now executive editor.

498
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: Means that I can kind of operate a little bit

499
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: of as an island and do the projects and really

500
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: own the projects that I love, which at the moment

501
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: is podcasting. I just love it.

502
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 2: Well, you are extraordinary at it, which is amazing. But

503
00:26:55,280 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 2: I bet that telling twenty fifteen Jesse, who was you know,

504
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 2: loading posts, that this is where you'd end up. There's

505
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 2: just no way that you could possibly conceive of being

506
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 2: like right at the top of this business where you

507
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 2: started sort of as such a junior. But before we

508
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 2: move on to sort of how you can position yourself

509
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: in a business and have that faith to keep trying

510
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 2: even if you don't feel that you're very good at

511
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: something at the beginning you mentioned just then proving that

512
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 2: you are really smart. And I think a lot of

513
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 2: where people go maybe on tangents or diversions or have

514
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,239
Speaker 2: not misguided but have chapters that kind of don't really

515
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 2: make sense for them, is where they do fall into

516
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 2: trying to prove things to other people or making decisions

517
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 2: from ego rather than as you mentioned, just like what

518
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: makes me happy, what's joyful? And I think that is

519
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: trying to prove that you're smart, or getting a really

520
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: good enderscore and feeling like you have to use every

521
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: point on the degree that you choose, and then you

522
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 2: know you do. You have a bachelor's degree in modern

523
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 2: history and gender studies and then a master's degree of research,

524
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 2: which is an incredible, like not overqualification for what you do,

525
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: but it's not necessarily correlating. Yeah, did you ever feel like, oh,

526
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 2: I'm walking away from this kind of very academic investment

527
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: of time, Like how how did you reconcile that?

528
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: Definitely, and that's a pool like that research and feeling

529
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: like I existed in this certain environment there was actually

530
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: definitely and I still sense it from the environment. I

531
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: came from a little bit of eyebrow raising.

532
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: I was gonna ask, yeah, a bit of.

533
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: Like seeing it as a demotion or like you've sold

534
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: out because and this is actually why I found academia flawed,

535
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: which everyone I know who works in academia agrees with me,

536
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: which is that it is very small, very insular. You

537
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: have the most exciting and important research and papers being

538
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: published that are so inexc to anyone outside of the academy,

539
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: and it is an incredible shame because it's really important stuff,

540
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: and there's not enough investment in communicating, Like you can

541
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: do the best research in the world, but if you're

542
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: not able to communicate it to a lot of people,

543
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: then did it ever really get written? And that's what

544
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: I was frustrated by, is that I would write this

545
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: twenty thousand word thesis and I think two people read it.

546
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: And so then when you get on the internet and

547
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: you can write in an hour an article that a

548
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: quarter of a million people read, there is something very

549
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: addictive about that. It's like this this sugar rush, and

550
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: in a way you can get addicted to that and

551
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: see it as more worthwhile, which I don't necessarily think

552
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: it is, and I think there's dangers in that. But

553
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: I also learned with the you know, with thinking you

554
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: need to use everything you know, every mark that you

555
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: got or every degree you have. It's like, every time

556
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: there's an achievement, there's this thing that we do where

557
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: it's like, what's next, what's next, What's next? And the

558
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: pressure and the suffocation of that, and whether it's that

559
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: you've just done really well in your HC or you've

560
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: just had a professional moment. Often those moments are the

561
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,479
Speaker 1: scariest because everyone looks at you and they're like, how

562
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: are you going to back this up? And it's like,

563
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: oh shit, it's never enough, Like I'm never finished. And

564
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,239
Speaker 1: I think I've learned to kind of let go of

565
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: that a little bit now and go, I'm going to

566
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: consolidate some of the projects I'm already on and go

567
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: and do the best job at this podcast that I can.

568
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: But I think that pressure is a real shame because

569
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: you never get to actually celebrate some of those wins.

570
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, totally. It's just the pace of everything is

571
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: so fast as well that you feel like you'll fall

572
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 2: out of relevance if you pause for like two seconds

573
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: to celebrate the thing that you're actually hard to achieve.

574
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 2: It's interesting that you did feel a bit of a

575
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: raised eyebrow kind of situation because I found that when

576
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: I left law and started business, but that was very

577
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: heavily eCOM based that it was sort of like, Oh,

578
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: what's that cute little thing you're doing on the internet,

579
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: like social media, and it was it was definitely until

580
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: it started making money and then kind of getting in

581
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: the AFR and stuff like that. It was definitely this little, funny,

582
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 2: cute little side thing that I was doing. And even

583
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: still though I noticed that, and I've admitted this only

584
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: recently because I only realized recently, but I've said it

585
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: in a few episodes that I still can't drop the

586
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 2: lawyer turned entrepreneur from my title in my mind because

587
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: I'm like, I just need you to know that I

588
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: did do that thing. Yeah, and I do have that

589
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 2: side of my personality and I don't do it anymore.

590
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: But and I don't think it was a waste of time,

591
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 2: but it's just there. It's just still part of everything,

592
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: you know, And it's interesting, I.

593
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: Think, yeah, it's I think as women in any sort

594
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: of media, people are looking for ways to dismiss you

595
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: and call you an idiot, especially if you do anything

596
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: on social media. It's like you are vacuous, you are dumb,

597
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: you are a sellout. So we feel this need to

598
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: like legitimize that, justify that there's actually skill in it

599
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: and that you kind of even building a platform. It's like,

600
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: it's taken a really really long time to do pretty

601
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: much everything in my career, and I I don't know

602
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: if I feel envy, but there are some people who, like,

603
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: you know, do have this, whether it's a breakout book

604
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,959
Speaker 1: or whether it's something go viral and they explode. I

605
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: certainly haven't had that experience. It's been like a really

606
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: slow growth of doing you know, the podcast for a

607
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: lot of years or whatever. And so I do kind

608
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: of feel like, yeah, maybe I've got to justify why

609
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: I have a right to say anything like because and

610
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: I do actually feel that that's part of my identity

611
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: and that we live in a world that is trying

612
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: to deny research and facts and objectivity, which I believe

613
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: very very strongly in and I think it's never been

614
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: more important to argue with data and research. But yeah,

615
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: I certainly feel like you can be very dismissed if

616
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: you're a woman with any kind of profile.

617
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's interesting the subtlety how long it took

618
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: me to realize that's what I was doing as well.

619
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: I just thought it was funny, and now I'm like, oh,

620
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 2: there's some weird psychology going on. I can speak declare

621
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: about that totally. But it's also I think that's another

622
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: reason why I kind of labor over these earlier chapters

623
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: of people's lives, because they don't get as much airtime

624
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 2: because it's not necessarily what you do right now, but

625
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 2: it is to remind everyone that you did labor over

626
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: all of the chapters that you've been in to get

627
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 2: to the position that you're in now. You didn't just

628
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 2: walk into the host role of one of the bigger

629
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 2: shows in Australia and know what to do, Like I

630
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 2: was going back, and your first internship in media was

631
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 2: like MTV in twenty eleven, and then you've done short

632
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 2: courses to upskill. So it's and like you said, when

633
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 2: you first began, you were good at podcasting, And I

634
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 2: don't think people believe that they can upskill in a

635
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 2: totally new area. I think they think I've got to

636
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 2: be good at X or, like I've mentioned earlier, the

637
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,479
Speaker 2: siloing thing, it's like, I'm not academic, so I can't

638
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 2: do this, Or I'm not creative so I can't do this.

639
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 2: It's like, or you could just find really good mentors

640
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 2: and do some short courses and try and see. And

641
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: I feel like you've done that. You've added so many

642
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: strings to your bowl along the way to books, writing

643
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 2: and producing a TV show. Like it's been this beautiful

644
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 2: progression of every next level has been a different set

645
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 2: of skills.

646
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,479
Speaker 1: And in that way, I think it's the only thing

647
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: I think I've done other than And I know it's

648
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: very unpopular to say luck, but I do think that

649
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 1: luck plays a part. Is that I have said yes.

650
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: I have to my own detriment. I have said yes

651
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: when I probably should have said no. But if someone said, hey,

652
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 1: do you want to be a weekend writer and that

653
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 1: means that you work Saturdays and Sundays, I said yes.

654
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 1: When someone said can you work Christmas Day? I said yes.

655
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say yes now because I think that that

656
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: has shifted. I think I've earned the right to say no.

657
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: But I do not think I would have had any

658
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: of those things, even like the TV or the You

659
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: might get the opportunity to go into a TV spot

660
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: and it's not paid and it's at seven o'clock in

661
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: the morning and it's going to take work. But I

662
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: said yes because it was something I wanted to get

663
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: good at. And I think when you say no to things,

664
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: that's a cost, as long as you know what that

665
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: cost is, like own the no. But I definitely feel

666
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: like being open to a lot of those things has

667
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: helped take me in a very strange direction. And we

668
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 1: talk at work about a ladder and a lattice, like

669
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: a ladder is just up. And I was on that

670
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: trajectory for a little bit in terms of, oh, will

671
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 1: you be the head of content or the editor or whatever,

672
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 1: and I realized I didn't want to do that, and

673
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: so I sidestepped and went, Okay, rather than that, I'm

674
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: going to go and do some TV writing and I'm

675
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: going to write a book and I'm going to do

676
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: some TV spots or whatever. And that made me feel satisfied.

677
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 1: Rather than being the big boss, I have no desire

678
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: to be anyone's boss. Yeah.

679
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, So this is one of my favorite realizations

680
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 2: in the kind of matrix of seizing anyone's Yeah, and

681
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: that is that we spend so much of our journey

682
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 2: thinking that bigger and further upwards is better, just necessarily,

683
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 2: like without any other considerations. And same with the hierarchy

684
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 2: of jobs. We think that quitting corporate and working for

685
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 2: yourself is better, Like that's because it's romanticized, and or

686
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: being a CEO is better. And like, what I think

687
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: people don't realize is that we are not all built

688
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 2: the same. The fabric of what lights you up but

689
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 2: also makes you desperately unhappy, or what is your fear

690
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: versus what is your passion? It looks different for everyone else.

691
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: So we can't all be CEOs and enjoy it. We

692
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 2: can't all be business owners as enjoy it. And it's

693
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 2: actually quite normal to think I don't want to be

694
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 2: my boss or I don't like it's the most empowering

695
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 2: thing ever, maybe for some people is to say I

696
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 2: just don't need to progress. I'm happy here, And like,

697
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: I don't think we allow people to have that realization.

698
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: No, I was reading maybe it's Atomic Habits. It's some

699
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: book that I was reading a little while ago that

700
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: said the first thing you should choose rather than like

701
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: how much money I want to make or what job

702
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 1: do I want to do? Or do I want the promotion?

703
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: Is like what do you want your day to look like?

704
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: And then what do you want your week to look like?

705
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: And then work backwards from there, because I do not

706
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: want my day to look like meetings. I don't want

707
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: my day to look like I'm really bad at any

708
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: sort of confrontation, Like if I was managing someone and

709
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: there was an issue with performance, I just can't. It's

710
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: just not worth how much anxiety it gives me to

711
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 1: give that feedback. I don't want to be up at

712
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: six and working late, like that's not me, And that's

713
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: been actually more important since I've had a baby to

714
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: go What exactly do you want your days to look like?

715
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: When do you feel most connected to Luna? Like there's

716
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 1: a threshold at which you lean into work so much

717
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 1: that you feel disconnected and you're just a nightmare for

718
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: you know everyone around you, and you know the money

719
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: and the promotion and the career goals can all fit

720
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: around it. But if your day is hell, then no

721
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: matter what goals you hit, your unhappy. So that's kind

722
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,399
Speaker 1: of the granular. What I've found going back to has

723
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: really helped me since having a baby.

724
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I often describe it as like

725
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 2: we all spend our brain like our thinking time and

726
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 2: goal setting time in the macro like macro my title

727
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: to be or what are my macro goals? And unfortunately,

728
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 2: if you leave out the micro of what does that

729
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 2: translate to day to day? That's how people find achieving

730
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 2: their goal sometimes doesn't feel the way that they thought

731
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 2: it would because they didn't consider the micro. So I'm

732
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 2: always like, think about both levels before you decide anything

733
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 2: in your life.

734
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I totally agree.

735
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: When we had the matchup business, the pressure to get

736
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: into supermarkets was so high because it was like, well,

737
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 2: instantly you become a multimillion dollar business, and why would

738
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 2: you not want to you know, ten times your revenue overnight.

739
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 2: And of course for ages, we invested so much money

740
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 2: in that process, thinking that was the logical next step,

741
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 2: and then I realized I left corporate to not do that,

742
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 2: and this is corporatizing the thing that I created. So

743
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 2: I could leave the corporate world and I don't want

744
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 2: to be in a hys best in a factory every

745
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 2: day like it. But the ego of like realizing it's

746
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 2: okay to not try for that next big thing is

747
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,280
Speaker 2: I think really really complex.

748
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you've got to create time in your schedule

749
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: to enjoy the big moments like I often, you know,

750
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: whether it's live shows or submitting a book or book publicity.

751
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: It's like that stuff of like reaping the rewards for

752
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: hard work. If that is all done between other hard

753
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: work and you're tired and burnt out and grumpy, then

754
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: none of that is fun. Like and I've had that

755
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: experience of like being in this situation and looking around

756
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: and going, this is a career. I remember going to

757
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: this writer's festival, total career goal. Who I was on

758
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: a panel with, who I got to spend time with,

759
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: And it was traveling and I was in this great

760
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: hotel and I resented every minute of it because I

761
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: wanted to be at home, because I was tired, because

762
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: I had stuff I knew I needed to do between everything.

763
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: And in that way, it's like, what's the point if

764
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: you don't get to have fun at those sorts of moments?

765
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: And maybe that means you write a book every five

766
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: years rather than a book every year, like who says

767
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: you have to write a book every year. Who says

768
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: that you've got to say yes to this, you know,

769
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: incredible opportunity that is going to tire you out so

770
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: much that your marriage suffers like no one. So I, yeah,

771
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: have certainly that's my goal when I get those incredible moments,

772
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: to actually be able to feel them.

773
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 2: I love that reminder because I think, yeah, we think

774
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 2: of everything monetarily and don't consider that that quote of

775
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 2: like if it costs you your peace, it's too expensive,

776
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 2: so it doesn't really matter what you make from it

777
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 2: if you're unhappy, Like what's the point. And You've got

778
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 2: a beautiful chapter in my dear friend Genevieve Day's book

779
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 2: on the Juggle, and there was something you said that

780
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: I highlighted and scribbled down because I thought it was

781
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 2: just so valid that you had become ungrateful for objectively

782
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 2: joyful moments. And I think that's when you know you've

783
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 2: pushed it too far, when you can't even enjoy the

784
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 2: good bits, so like why have any bits at all?

785
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: Yes? And then you become I've got a real thing

786
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: about being in moments and thinking I should feel one

787
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: way and not feeling that way, Which is this I

788
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 1: heard this term recently about emotional perfectionism. I think that's

789
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: what I had that I think my emotion should be

790
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: perfect in every moment, and they're not. And that's been

791
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 1: a real like relief actually, because you look at like,

792
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: for example, I went and saw Jolly Olderton recently at

793
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: the Opera House, and you look at her in the

794
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: opera House, and she sold out the opera House, and

795
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: she looks gorgeous and what a career. And most people

796
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: in media would look at her and go, that is

797
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: what I want. But my own life has taught me

798
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: you have no idea how she feels you have. It

799
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: can look so glamorous, but she might have had the

800
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: worst day and been slogging over a script that she

801
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 1: submitted that got rejected, Like you just have no idea,

802
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: And then someone in the audience who's just come here

803
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: and she's been looking forward to it all week is

804
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: probably feeling a lot happier than Dolly on stage, and

805
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 1: who's the winner there, Like, happiness can't be felt by

806
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: the other people around you who are envious. If you

807
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: think that other people's envy is going to build you up,

808
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: it's not because you can't touch that. So it's I think,

809
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:50,240
Speaker 1: realizing as well as cliche as it is the tiny,

810
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: tiny joys that bring you just as much happiness, which

811
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,959
Speaker 1: is like, you know, today I'm mostly at home with Luna,

812
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: and it'll be the best day of my week. No

813
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: matter what else happens, it'll be the best day of

814
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: my week. And yeah, that's certainly been a surprise. I think.

815
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 2: Oh, I love that, and I can't wait to get

816
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 2: to more on Lunar and oh my goodness, you're sixty

817
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: two and a half hour labor like you will talk

818
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,240
Speaker 2: about proving to yourself that you can do hard things

819
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 2: in just a moment, but just wrapping up the sort

820
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,720
Speaker 2: of career progression, and particularly the lattice, I love that analogy.

821
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 2: I think that's such a good visual reminder that it

822
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 2: doesn't have to just go upwards in the sort of

823
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 2: complicated matrix, particularly as women that we have, but just

824
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: for anyone really of putting yourself forward for new positions,

825
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 2: not believing that you can do them, imposter syndrome, self doubt, burnout,

826
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 2: everything that comes with going, you know, getting promotions and

827
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 2: putting yourself forward for those things. What has been your

828
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,439
Speaker 2: You mentioned that you're not always thinking you know too

829
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 2: far ahead? What has been your model for those moves?

830
00:44:59,760 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 1: Ea?

831
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: Each of those jumps? Has it been like a mentor

832
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 2: that you turn to? Like, how do you even know

833
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: that it's time for a new role? How did you

834
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 2: decide I want to be an author? How did you

835
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 2: kind of know when the cusp of a new chapter

836
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 2: was happening?

837
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: I and this is not necessarily a great model, but

838
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: it's true. Is I have used jealousy. So anytime I

839
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: feel jealousy, which I am quite a jealous envious person

840
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,439
Speaker 1: at something I don't like about myself, but every time

841
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: I see it, every time I feel it, I go,

842
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: what is it that you want? And sometimes if I

843
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 1: look at it really closely and I go, you actually

844
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: don't want that, the jealousy of vaporates, which is great.

845
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 1: So it's like sometimes I say something and I'm like, oh,

846
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: you said no to that, you actually don't want to

847
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: do that, and then you go, ah, oh cool, I'm

848
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: actually not jealous. And then other times I go, Okay,

849
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 1: this person has written a book. Oh, this person wrote

850
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: a fiction book. I've always want to write a fiction book.

851
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, great, that was clarifying. You want

852
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:12,240
Speaker 1: to write a fiction book, Well, then do it instead

853
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: of sitting there stewing on how jealous you feel about

854
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: this person or thinking it has anything to do with them,

855
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: because it doesn't. It's just your own like navigation system

856
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: of what's next. And then like I found that with

857
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: television as well, and I think it all builds on

858
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,439
Speaker 1: each other, Like I wouldn't have been able to write

859
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: fiction if I hadn't written nonfiction. That was my putting

860
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 1: my toe in and going can we write a book

861
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: and playing with narrative, and then going, I think I've

862
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: skilled up to go, Okay, I can write fiction, which

863
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: is dialogue. You learn how to write dialogue and then

864
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: you go all right. I actually do think I can

865
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: write for screen, but there's no way I could have

866
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 1: started with screen. And in saying that, it's like when

867
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: Claire and I wrote our first episode of something, we

868
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: did not know the program, so it's like everyone was

869
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: sending us, We're like, oh, can we just see you

870
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 1: like what a script looks like? Because I was like,

871
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: what what do you do?

872
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 2: Do you write?

873
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: Is the name in capitals? Like I've never I literally

874
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: have on my bookshelf all the succession scripts and I've

875
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 1: got the script for fleabag and I've got the script

876
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: for normal people, because I was like, I need to

877
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: self teat like I haven't done a course in this.

878
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: I don't know all these people went to UNI to

879
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 1: go and learn to script write, like I need to

880
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:38,839
Speaker 1: learn in one day how to write a script. And

881
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:42,760
Speaker 1: maybe that comes down to like studying, Like I quite

882
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: like that intense getting across something quickly, and a belief

883
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,439
Speaker 1: that if you work hard at something you'll be able

884
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: to do it. Like I have a very strong belief

885
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: in prep that's the only way that I get over nerves.

886
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: Is like if I were to go on stage in

887
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: an hour, I would probably be really nervous because like

888
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm going to say. But if

889
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: I know what I'm going to say, know how it's

890
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 1: going to go, and I trust my ability to prepare,

891
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,919
Speaker 1: I don't trust myself. So that I think has been

892
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: a good mantra for me is that like if you

893
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: work hard enough, the imposter syndrome or whatever you want

894
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: to call it will dissipate because you know you've put

895
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: in the hours.

896
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like giving yourself data points to sort of

897
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 2: rely on exactly. You know, self doubt in Korea and

898
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 2: upskilling it sort of seems like the biggest thing in

899
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: your entire life until you become a mum, and then

900
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 2: all the problems you thought you have become very simple

901
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: and they've become really one dimensional compared to sort of

902
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 2: this whole new thing that you're facing where you're like, oh,

903
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 2: I thought I knew what the word hard meant until now,

904
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 2: and I don't even know. I mean, I had a

905
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: C section, so it was like ten minutes and then

906
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 2: it was just kind of done. But sixty two and

907
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 2: a half hours, like, tell me you didn't have moments

908
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: of self doubt like I can't do this? What happened?

909
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that was.

910
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: The whole pregnancy, and I got perinatal depression and anxiety

911
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: like I was. I have a total phobia of pain,

912
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 1: of being stuck, which is kind of what labor is,

913
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: like you are stuck in experience that you can't end.

914
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 1: Absolutely no belief that I could do that, And it

915
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: didn't matter how many women said they'd done it, because

916
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, yeah, but you're stronger than me.

917
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 1: You don't get it. I'm weak, you're strong. I have

918
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 1: no doubt that you did that. I saw my psychologist

919
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: during it and he said he kind of got to

920
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 1: the bottom of it and was like, you are scared

921
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: that you're going to die. And I was like, I am.

922
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 1: I am scared that I'm going to die when I

923
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: give birth, Like I just don't have any faithor in

924
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: my body's ability to do it. And so I actually

925
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 1: went in initially and said I need to get a

926
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: C section. I'd had a really traumatic experience with pain

927
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: where I had been stuck in pain for a long

928
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: period prior just a year prior, and I was like,

929
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: if I get stuck in pain, I will panic, and

930
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 1: I really don't want to panic, and I need to

931
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: control what I can. And the obstetrician said, I hear you,

932
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: and if that's the choice you want to make, absolutely,

933
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: but think about it. And he said to me, it's

934
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: one day of your life, which ironically it wasn't. I think,

935
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: let's just keep an eye on this baby and positioning

936
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: and measurements, and I think you'll be surprised. And so

937
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,280
Speaker 1: I did lots of research. I did the birthing classes,

938
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: I read all the books, and I went I think

939
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 1: this is intant for me to try, like that it

940
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: could be quite a big thing if I'm able to

941
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 1: do it. And so me and my my twin sister

942
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: both had very very long labors and they just weren't

943
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: progressing and kept getting sent home from hospital and all

944
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 1: of that. And then I went in. I got an epigeneral.

945
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 1: They say to wait till you're like, I don't know

946
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: five centimeters. I think I was two, and I was like,

947
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 1: stick it in. I just I have guys, It's just

948
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,839
Speaker 1: I have no pain for it. I'll just do it.

949
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: And then the actual giving birth is the best experience

950
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 1: I've ever had, Like I absolutely loved it, and I

951
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: have walked around the world since. And I've been really

952
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: careful about talking about this because you do not earn

953
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: a birth. My twin sister, with the same body had

954
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: a traumatic birth, Like we could not be more identical.

955
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 1: We prepared exactly the same. I didn't earn anything. But

956
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: even with her traumatic birth, we've both said, you can

957
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 1: walk around the world a little bit straighter because you're like,

958
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: I cannot believe what my body did, whether that is

959
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 1: vaginal c section, however that baby comes out, you're like,

960
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: holy shit, Like I didn't know I could grow a

961
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: baby and even like look after it and you feel

962
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: like a baileya every minute of every day. But like

963
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: that to me has given me more self esteem than

964
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: anything I've ever done. Like I just can't believe if

965
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: that baby, who I think is the most perfect thing

966
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: in the world, has anything to do with me, then

967
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: like I am great.

968
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 2: I am the actual shit, Like the actual shit. I

969
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,839
Speaker 2: think that's just one thing that's amazing about listening to

970
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 2: you is that in every regard, whether it's like your

971
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 2: childhood or your career or even giving birth, it's your

972
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 2: incredible self awareness. And I think the disconnect for a

973
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 2: lot of people in fulfillment or happiness or whatever you

974
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 2: want to call it with their life is that they

975
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 2: don't just really get in touch with like what am

976
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 2: I good at? What are my incentives? What motivates me?

977
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 2: What doesn't motivate me? Like you know that you to

978
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 2: even be able to articulate that you operate from jealousy,

979
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 2: Like that's a motivator, Like it's you know, you don't

980
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 2: want to be a jealous person, but the fact that

981
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 2: you can use that to your advantage, Like all you

982
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: need to know is the fabric that makes up your

983
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 2: exact composition of like fulfillment and then just build your

984
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 2: life around it. And I think the problem is that

985
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 2: people look at other people's fabric and then make decisions

986
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 2: based on that, and it's like, well, of course horse

987
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 2: riding wasn't going to make you happy because you hate animals,

988
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 2: Like that doesn't make sense, you know exactly, And it's

989
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 2: about that acceptance, Like it's I think being really close

990
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 2: to your siblings helps because even if you don't have

991
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 2: self awareness, they will give it to you. Like no

992
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 2: one will tell me in how many different ways I'm flawed,

993
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 2: like my family will in a very loving way.

994
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: But I think you're absolutely right. It's like we're very

995
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:18,879
Speaker 1: quick to see everyone else's issues and neuroses and diagnose

996
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 1: and narcissism and all of those things that we throw

997
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:26,280
Speaker 1: around without seeing that we have exactly the same level

998
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: of shit that we're dealing with. And I think self

999
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 1: awareness gets you a long way. And you know that

1000
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: self reflection because I've seen like going and seeing a

1001
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 1: psychologist and that's because I've had years of knowing that

1002
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 1: I'm anxious or having episodes of depression and being able

1003
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 1: to work out why that happens and where I get stuck.

1004
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 1: I can't always see that in the moment, but I

1005
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 1: certainly see the value in untangling it after and sometimes

1006
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: if it's writing down. I found writing really good for

1007
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 1: that in terms of processing what's going on. And even

1008
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: like after giving birth, it was like I didn't write

1009
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 1: anything to publish, but like I might just write in

1010
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: a journal to just understand the complexity of all the feelings. Yeah.

1011
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 2: Wow, And now would you say, I mean like we

1012
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 2: need a whole other episode to talk about the juggle

1013
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 2: and the way that your goal setting, time management, prioritization,

1014
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 2: like self care, all of those things just completely changes

1015
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 2: in such a radical way once you have a baby.

1016
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 2: Now that Luna's sort of sixteen months, did you say, yeah, yeah,

1017
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 2: how are you feeling in terms of are you full

1018
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 2: pelt back at work? Do you feel like is there

1019
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 2: still the mumfog? Are you like how you feeling with

1020
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 2: the juggle?

1021
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 1: Every like every week since I've had Lunar, I would

1022
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:56,240
Speaker 1: have a different answer still now, like I think it changes.

1023
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:02,959
Speaker 1: Right now, I'm feeling very good because I went away

1024
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: with my family last weekend. I have It's funny because

1025
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,359
Speaker 1: a lot of what I do is public facing, right,

1026
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: So it's like if I'm on a podcast, then my

1027
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: friends and family will probably see a video of it

1028
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 1: on Instagram. What you can't see is how many of

1029
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 1: those podcasts I did in one day. So it might

1030
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 1: look like I'm working every day, but I'm absolutely not

1031
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 1: working every day. It's like I try and have at

1032
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: least probably one to two days during the week that

1033
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 1: can be lunar days and during her naps. I will,

1034
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's a bit of script writing or

1035
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 1: other projects I'm working on, I will try and get

1036
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: that done. But my vision of success has totally changed

1037
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 1: and the cost of what projects Like, I think I

1038
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 1: was very like, very ambitious. I still am very ambitious,

1039
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 1: and I felt to coming back actually because I think

1040
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: that for a while the ambition did dull, not in

1041
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 1: a bad way, but I was just very focused on

1042
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 1: as much time as possible with Luna. I'm feeling it

1043
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 1: come back because I simply have more time, and like

1044
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 1: even the difference between my baby and Clare's is that

1045
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 1: she's at an age now where like she'll sit there

1046
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: and read her book and like she kind of wants

1047
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 1: a bit of independence, and that might mean that I

1048
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: can read a book, or that I can go and

1049
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 1: do like I know that she doesn't. There's just I'm

1050
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 1: feeling more and more independence, I think. So at the moment, yeah,

1051
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 1: I would probably do like I reckon three three and

1052
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 1: a half full days a week of work and then

1053
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 1: around naps try and work however I can. But the

1054
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: big thing has been family. I have enormous my mother

1055
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: in law, my mum, Like, we have a nanny who

1056
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 1: comes a day a week right now, my father in

1057
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: law and Luca's brother is downstairs with lunar like. That

1058
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: has been the greatest, the greatest blessing. There is no

1059
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 1: privilege when you have kids like. Family like that has

1060
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 1: just made this experience totally different than it might be

1061
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 1: if I lived regionally or overseas and had no support.

1062
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I'm the same. My family lived within

1063
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 2: like four ks or three k's and over every day,

1064
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 2: and I just think on those days where I'm not

1065
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 2: feeling great and i don't feel like I'm getting the

1066
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 2: balance right, I'm just like and I have all that.

1067
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 2: Imagine Yeah, without that, how I would be feeling.

1068
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: Even on the days when you don't need the help

1069
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: or you don't call in the help. You do know

1070
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 1: it's there, and that's very different. Like imagine not sleeping

1071
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: waking up and going there is no one I can call.

1072
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: Knowing that there are people you can call is totally

1073
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 1: totally different. Like I just think, yeah, the experience for people,

1074
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: I feel like I've always got to preface everything with

1075
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 1: that because I just think i'd have it'd be completely

1076
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 1: different if I didn't have that sort.

1077
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm absolutely in the same boat, and it is.

1078
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 2: It does allow a big part of your brain the

1079
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 2: freedom to just enjoy the experience a lot more because

1080
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 2: you're not completely without any break or without any time

1081
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 2: to like miss them. You know, it's like absence makes

1082
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 2: the heart grow fonder with everything. But I think also

1083
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 2: in motherhood it's nice to yeah, I mean, once you

1084
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 2: first get through that first kind of bit, to be

1085
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 2: able to start to miss them and then be so

1086
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 2: excited when you get to get to see them again.

1087
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 1: Exactly and to know that, you know, I get up

1088
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: and have this great I get to do breakfast and

1089
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 1: we hang out in the morning and we have this

1090
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 1: great time before my mom comes and seeing her face

1091
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: light up when she sees my mom or Luca's mom

1092
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 1: is just the greatest joy. And then I get to

1093
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: run in the door like after work, and I've never

1094
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 1: run high from work before. I just am so keen

1095
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 1: to get back, and I feel like that helps me

1096
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: to appreciate it, like it's it's just so so much fun.

1097
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 1: And to see other people what they see in your baby,

1098
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 1: to have that shared and to just all of you

1099
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 1: marvel at this baby together is like, yeah, it's how

1100
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 1: our ancestors did it. And I just the loneliness that

1101
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: and I think you feel loneliness regardless, but yeah, it's

1102
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 1: definitely different when you've got a real support network.

1103
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 2: Well, Jesse, I know today is a lunar day and

1104
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 2: I don't want to take any more of your precious time,

1105
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 2: but I feel like I could. I've there's so many

1106
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 2: things I want to talk. We didn't even touch on strife.

1107
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 2: We hardly even got into your books. But I'll include

1108
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 2: links to everything in the show notes. And of course

1109
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 2: I don't think I need to link one mayor out

1110
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 2: loud or any of the shows because I feel like

1111
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,919
Speaker 2: everyone will already know what they are, but just in case,

1112
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:56,919
Speaker 2: I will make sure to include all that. But thank

1113
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 2: you so much for your time. It's been such a joy.

1114
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you for having me, and I've really

1115
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 1: enjoyed listening to your podcast and seeing all your work

1116
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 1: and the community that you've built. So thank you for

1117
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 1: everything you've done.

1118
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 2: Like I said at the start of this conversation, this

1119
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 2: was actually the first time I'd ever sat down to

1120
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:16,040
Speaker 2: chat with Jesse, and yet somehow I feel like we

1121
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 2: had been friends for a million years. I could tell

1122
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 2: her pretty much anything, my deepest, darkest fears, all my vulnerabilities.

1123
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 2: She's just one of those warm, intelligent, articulate people that

1124
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 2: you just can't hear enough of. I could have chatted

1125
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 2: to her for hours and probably will have her back

1126
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 2: on the show at some point. Definitely going to go

1127
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 2: and reread her two books. If you don't follow her already,

1128
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 2: you absolutely should. I suspect most of you probably already do.

1129
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 2: But in case you don't, I will pop the link

1130
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 2: to her page in the show notes, as well as

1131
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 2: the link to the shows she hosts on Mamma Maya

1132
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:50,440
Speaker 2: and her two beautiful books. In the meantime, I hope

1133
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 2: you guys are having a wonderful week. The silly season

1134
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 2: isn't too silly too quickly. I feel like it's starting

1135
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 2: earlier and early every year. It is absolutely wild, but

1136
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 2: I hope you're all looking after yourselves and seizing U

1137
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 2: A h