1
00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,341
Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

2
00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

3
00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:22,542
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. Welcome to Mumma out Loud,

4
00:00:22,662 --> 00:00:26,182
Speaker 2: where women come to debrief. I am Jessie Stephens.

5
00:00:25,741 --> 00:00:27,822
Speaker 1: I'm Mia Friedman and I'm Amelia Lester.

6
00:00:28,142 --> 00:00:31,102
Speaker 2: And here's what is on our agenda for today, Wednesday,

7
00:00:31,262 --> 00:00:34,862
Speaker 2: the ninth of July. More women than ever are having

8
00:00:34,942 --> 00:00:39,302
Speaker 2: caesareans in New South Wales. Have women been scared shitless when.

9
00:00:39,182 --> 00:00:39,982
Speaker 3: It comes to birth?

10
00:00:40,342 --> 00:00:42,662
Speaker 1: And there's a very well known little blue pill that

11
00:00:42,782 --> 00:00:46,862
Speaker 1: is often used for a rectile dysfunction, which is something

12
00:00:46,902 --> 00:00:48,782
Speaker 1: that you want to talk about in the first thirty

13
00:00:48,822 --> 00:00:52,702
Speaker 1: seconds of a podcast, and it's causing the gap, the

14
00:00:52,742 --> 00:00:55,822
Speaker 1: sex gap between men and women to really widen.

15
00:00:55,902 --> 00:00:58,102
Speaker 4: And then we're going to talk about whether anyone should

16
00:00:58,182 --> 00:01:00,702
Speaker 4: even be going to university anymore.

17
00:01:00,782 --> 00:01:04,262
Speaker 1: Plus some scroller's gossip about Jennifer Aniston and some news

18
00:01:04,262 --> 00:01:04,941
Speaker 1: from beck Jad.

19
00:01:05,102 --> 00:01:07,462
Speaker 4: But in case you missed it, everything you thought you

20
00:01:07,542 --> 00:01:11,702
Speaker 4: knew about activewear is there is a big cultural change

21
00:01:11,702 --> 00:01:13,742
Speaker 4: of foot and I for one am here for it.

22
00:01:13,942 --> 00:01:16,622
Speaker 4: Out with the soulless monochrome sets, you know, with the

23
00:01:16,662 --> 00:01:20,702
Speaker 4: little bralette and the leggings all active where seems to

24
00:01:20,742 --> 00:01:24,862
Speaker 4: be black, not even gray, but like that burgundy color

25
00:01:25,022 --> 00:01:29,982
Speaker 4: yes and mushroom yes in with lurid colored, sweat drenched cotton.

26
00:01:30,222 --> 00:01:33,142
Speaker 4: Allow me to explain, this is the revenge of y

27
00:01:33,222 --> 00:01:36,742
Speaker 4: two k athleisure. The chase makers of Line have decrete it.

28
00:01:37,262 --> 00:01:40,581
Speaker 4: They are buying up secondhand separates from the early two

29
00:01:40,622 --> 00:01:42,422
Speaker 4: thousand second hand workout separates.

30
00:01:42,422 --> 00:01:45,302
Speaker 1: So, okay, so you sent this link to me in

31
00:01:45,422 --> 00:01:46,902
Speaker 1: the early house of this morning.

32
00:01:47,062 --> 00:01:49,622
Speaker 3: It was the first thing I read, and I loved it.

33
00:01:49,622 --> 00:01:51,302
Speaker 1: It was literally the first thing I saw when I

34
00:01:51,342 --> 00:01:54,382
Speaker 1: turned my phone on, and I sent you back a

35
00:01:54,502 --> 00:01:57,462
Speaker 1: vomit emoji because the idea, like, I know, Jesse, you're

36
00:01:57,462 --> 00:01:59,862
Speaker 1: not buying anything near this year, and you love a thrift,

37
00:01:59,942 --> 00:02:02,942
Speaker 1: and I'm becoming more partial to thrifting. I have to say,

38
00:02:03,742 --> 00:02:05,702
Speaker 1: but secondhand active wear?

39
00:02:05,982 --> 00:02:08,102
Speaker 3: Can we just define our terms here? Okay?

40
00:02:08,302 --> 00:02:11,902
Speaker 4: So what we mean by early two thousands active wear?

41
00:02:12,102 --> 00:02:14,022
Speaker 4: I want you to think of like a bright red

42
00:02:14,022 --> 00:02:17,781
Speaker 4: and Nike tank top, a pink pleated tennis skirt. Remember

43
00:02:17,782 --> 00:02:20,702
Speaker 4: those Kiki capris that were everywhere in like two thousand

44
00:02:20,742 --> 00:02:21,061
Speaker 4: and three?

45
00:02:21,181 --> 00:02:23,181
Speaker 1: What about the g string leotards we used to wear

46
00:02:23,222 --> 00:02:23,902
Speaker 1: over our leggings.

47
00:02:24,062 --> 00:02:26,822
Speaker 4: No, that's too far back, too far back there. And

48
00:02:27,022 --> 00:02:29,702
Speaker 4: there are several reasons why this is happening, and I

49
00:02:29,942 --> 00:02:33,342
Speaker 4: learned about them in the excellent fashion Substack Never Warns.

50
00:02:33,342 --> 00:02:36,302
Speaker 4: Do you subscribe to that? By Leanna sat Saturnstein. She

51
00:02:36,382 --> 00:02:38,341
Speaker 4: used to write a vogue and now she's got a substack.

52
00:02:38,822 --> 00:02:41,302
Speaker 4: The first is because they just don't make them how

53
00:02:41,302 --> 00:02:43,022
Speaker 4: they used to. I know you've talked about this on

54
00:02:43,062 --> 00:02:45,982
Speaker 4: the show, this idea that clothing is part of the

55
00:02:46,102 --> 00:02:49,662
Speaker 4: end shitification of our lives. Everything is getting shittier, and

56
00:02:49,822 --> 00:02:52,542
Speaker 4: workout leggings are absolutely part of that trend.

57
00:02:52,622 --> 00:02:55,462
Speaker 1: They're also more expensive, Like they're so expensive, it's like

58
00:02:55,502 --> 00:02:57,302
Speaker 1: two hundred dollars and they're shinier.

59
00:02:57,422 --> 00:02:59,661
Speaker 4: Have you noticed that, Yeah, because they're making them from

60
00:02:59,702 --> 00:03:04,222
Speaker 4: ever more nefarious synthetic ones. The second reason is that

61
00:03:04,302 --> 00:03:08,182
Speaker 4: it's about rejecting this idea of looking neat and pulled together,

62
00:03:08,342 --> 00:03:10,862
Speaker 4: you know how like Quiet Life Stream meant we always

63
00:03:10,982 --> 00:03:13,822
Speaker 4: had to be in our tasteful, grayish separates.

64
00:03:14,022 --> 00:03:17,182
Speaker 2: I have never worn a matching set, and so I

65
00:03:17,222 --> 00:03:19,662
Speaker 2: am all for the end of the matching set. The

66
00:03:19,662 --> 00:03:21,782
Speaker 2: fact that you would have a matching set, which is

67
00:03:21,782 --> 00:03:24,181
Speaker 2: going to set you back five hundred dollars, and then

68
00:03:24,582 --> 00:03:27,302
Speaker 2: b you're gonna find both pieces to wear them with

69
00:03:27,542 --> 00:03:29,862
Speaker 2: socks that match. It's just I mean, I'm in awe

70
00:03:29,862 --> 00:03:30,822
Speaker 2: of any woman who can do that.

71
00:03:30,862 --> 00:03:34,262
Speaker 4: And also, inevitably they spotlight the particular part of my

72
00:03:34,382 --> 00:03:36,862
Speaker 4: lower stomach that I'm not looking to spotlight.

73
00:03:37,062 --> 00:03:38,942
Speaker 1: So it's not so much about what you're saying is

74
00:03:38,982 --> 00:03:42,942
Speaker 1: it's not so much about buying someone's old, used, no

75
00:03:43,102 --> 00:03:48,622
Speaker 1: crotch sweated leggings that have been up Jesse's cameltoe. It's

76
00:03:48,742 --> 00:03:51,142
Speaker 1: more about vintage vintage.

77
00:03:51,302 --> 00:03:52,142
Speaker 3: It's an aesthetic.

78
00:03:52,262 --> 00:03:56,702
Speaker 4: It's like it's giving Gwyneth leaving Tracy Anderson in two thousand.

79
00:03:56,382 --> 00:03:57,542
Speaker 3: And four, remember that.

80
00:03:57,582 --> 00:04:00,022
Speaker 4: And that was that kind of like jazz, A size

81
00:04:00,022 --> 00:04:03,582
Speaker 4: inspired like rolled down track soup pam oh yes, a

82
00:04:03,702 --> 00:04:07,222
Speaker 4: sort of frilly sports bra, mesh cutouts. Remember all of this.

83
00:04:07,382 --> 00:04:10,942
Speaker 4: We used to have fun with, okay, And I think

84
00:04:10,982 --> 00:04:15,342
Speaker 4: the reason why we went down this path of really boring,

85
00:04:15,502 --> 00:04:19,342
Speaker 4: really tasteful athleisure is because we started wearing it everywhere,

86
00:04:19,382 --> 00:04:21,262
Speaker 4: and it was a way of convincing ourselves that it

87
00:04:21,301 --> 00:04:25,342
Speaker 4: was okay to wear our leggings to the supermarket, day

88
00:04:25,382 --> 00:04:27,702
Speaker 4: to night leggings. That was a thing in the twenty tenth.

89
00:04:27,782 --> 00:04:29,022
Speaker 4: Don't tell me that wasn't a thing.

90
00:04:29,462 --> 00:04:30,421
Speaker 3: And now we've.

91
00:04:30,222 --> 00:04:33,181
Speaker 4: Realized, actually, we should probably just be wearing them to

92
00:04:33,222 --> 00:04:35,062
Speaker 4: work out, and we may as well have fun with it.

93
00:04:35,342 --> 00:04:37,741
Speaker 2: I am all for athleisure coming back that it's not

94
00:04:37,821 --> 00:04:40,541
Speaker 2: skin time. I quite like that. But I will also

95
00:04:40,662 --> 00:04:44,501
Speaker 2: fight for buying secondhand athleisua. I do it all the time.

96
00:04:44,541 --> 00:04:48,381
Speaker 2: I go into thrift shops and I go tops bottoms,

97
00:04:48,582 --> 00:04:51,662
Speaker 2: tipraws all the time, all the time. I wouldn't think

98
00:04:51,702 --> 00:04:52,422
Speaker 2: twice about it.

99
00:04:52,501 --> 00:04:55,061
Speaker 3: This is the most fashionable you have ever been.

100
00:04:55,462 --> 00:04:59,302
Speaker 2: I know I was ahead. I was ahead. According to

101
00:04:59,381 --> 00:05:01,702
Speaker 2: an article in the Sydney Morning Herald over the weekend,

102
00:05:02,222 --> 00:05:06,142
Speaker 2: almost sixty percent of births at some Sydney private hospitals

103
00:05:06,181 --> 00:05:10,742
Speaker 2: are by caesarean as more women seek to cont troll childbirth.

104
00:05:11,222 --> 00:05:14,021
Speaker 2: Mary Ward writes that this comes within the context of

105
00:05:14,101 --> 00:05:19,702
Speaker 2: increased discussions around traumatic experiences of labor. At first, one

106
00:05:19,782 --> 00:05:22,222
Speaker 2: might think, okay, first thing I thought was maternal age.

107
00:05:22,262 --> 00:05:23,821
Speaker 2: So we know that maternal age is going up, and

108
00:05:23,861 --> 00:05:28,782
Speaker 2: with increased maternal age comes the increased likelihood of a cesarean.

109
00:05:29,061 --> 00:05:32,302
Speaker 1: So it's sixty percent in some of these private hospitals

110
00:05:32,301 --> 00:05:35,301
Speaker 1: in Sydney. What's the average sort.

111
00:05:35,101 --> 00:05:37,981
Speaker 2: Of across the car in three, so it's closer to

112
00:05:38,022 --> 00:05:42,222
Speaker 2: thirty percent. Yeah, yeah, more double yeah exactly. And look,

113
00:05:42,301 --> 00:05:45,821
Speaker 2: the maternal age does not fully explain the trend. A

114
00:05:45,902 --> 00:05:50,501
Speaker 2: recent report found that it is elective, not emergency sea sections,

115
00:05:50,541 --> 00:05:54,101
Speaker 2: that are driving the trend, and concerns have been raised

116
00:05:54,181 --> 00:05:58,541
Speaker 2: about private obstetricians pushing women towards getting a sea section

117
00:05:59,101 --> 00:06:02,222
Speaker 2: for the convenience of the obstetrician because obviously they can

118
00:06:02,262 --> 00:06:04,381
Speaker 2: then schedule it and they can go all right, I

119
00:06:04,462 --> 00:06:06,261
Speaker 2: know that ol be here. I know that they'll be

120
00:06:06,381 --> 00:06:08,181
Speaker 2: a bed. I know I can staff for that.

121
00:06:08,702 --> 00:06:10,821
Speaker 1: And this isn't entirely knew, is it? Because I remember

122
00:06:10,821 --> 00:06:14,421
Speaker 1: the phrase too posh to push was thrown around I

123
00:06:14,421 --> 00:06:17,541
Speaker 1: don't know, ten fifteen years ago about the idea of

124
00:06:17,821 --> 00:06:22,021
Speaker 1: elective C sections. And I don't know if I've imagined this,

125
00:06:22,101 --> 00:06:25,662
Speaker 1: but I think, actually posh Spice, it might have come

126
00:06:25,702 --> 00:06:29,182
Speaker 1: around when she said she was having an elective cesarean.

127
00:06:29,662 --> 00:06:32,861
Speaker 1: This phrase too posh to push started to be thrown around.

128
00:06:33,101 --> 00:06:35,741
Speaker 2: I mean I detest that phrase because I used to

129
00:06:35,941 --> 00:06:39,862
Speaker 2: post the podcast The Delivery Room and Hello Bump, where

130
00:06:39,902 --> 00:06:41,981
Speaker 2: I spoke to a lot of people about their birth stories.

131
00:06:42,061 --> 00:06:47,101
Speaker 2: And there is nothing posh or easy about a cesarean,

132
00:06:47,142 --> 00:06:48,582
Speaker 2: and any woman who's had one will know.

133
00:06:48,541 --> 00:06:52,262
Speaker 1: That there's no Let's just get that clear, and we

134
00:06:52,301 --> 00:06:55,461
Speaker 1: should say at the start of this segment, we have

135
00:06:55,541 --> 00:06:59,222
Speaker 1: no judgment. However, your baby comes into the world through

136
00:06:59,262 --> 00:07:04,301
Speaker 1: the sun, ruth, through the garage, through adoption, through a surrogate.

137
00:07:04,861 --> 00:07:07,342
Speaker 3: You do you know you also have zero medical expertise.

138
00:07:07,421 --> 00:07:07,981
Speaker 4: And I'm not.

139
00:07:07,861 --> 00:07:08,342
Speaker 3: Looking to.

140
00:07:10,102 --> 00:07:13,222
Speaker 2: Exactly but what's actually interesting what you're saying about the

141
00:07:13,302 --> 00:07:16,862
Speaker 2: Tuposh to push is that I read this fascinating article

142
00:07:16,902 --> 00:07:19,862
Speaker 2: in The Guardian about Brazil and cesarean rates. So they

143
00:07:19,862 --> 00:07:21,782
Speaker 2: have the highest in the world right and there are

144
00:07:21,902 --> 00:07:24,782
Speaker 2: some private hospitals in Brazil whether rates are as close

145
00:07:24,821 --> 00:07:28,102
Speaker 2: to ninety nine percent. Across the population is about fifty

146
00:07:28,102 --> 00:07:32,062
Speaker 2: seven percent. But there is actually this almost class distinction

147
00:07:32,302 --> 00:07:35,622
Speaker 2: in Brazil where they understand it as sea sections are

148
00:07:35,662 --> 00:07:38,422
Speaker 2: modern and elegant, and this whole article was about c

149
00:07:38,582 --> 00:07:42,381
Speaker 2: sections as status symbol. The author wrote, natural birth is

150
00:07:42,422 --> 00:07:45,702
Speaker 2: something poor women are meant to endure, and I wondered

151
00:07:45,742 --> 00:07:48,622
Speaker 2: if reading this just about the distinction between private and public,

152
00:07:48,702 --> 00:07:51,582
Speaker 2: I kind of went, oh, is this indicative of a

153
00:07:51,622 --> 00:07:55,222
Speaker 2: broader cultural trend where we go the poor women will

154
00:07:55,222 --> 00:07:57,582
Speaker 2: have the long natural poor women.

155
00:07:57,662 --> 00:07:58,662
Speaker 3: Can we pause on that?

156
00:07:58,782 --> 00:08:01,262
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I think that's part of what's going on

157
00:08:01,381 --> 00:08:03,782
Speaker 4: here as well. I remember when I was pregnant with

158
00:08:03,821 --> 00:08:06,462
Speaker 4: my first child, I got in an elevator and there

159
00:08:06,502 --> 00:08:08,821
Speaker 4: was a woman in the elevator who I hadn't met before.

160
00:08:09,022 --> 00:08:11,742
Speaker 4: We were just people writing an elevator together, and she

161
00:08:11,862 --> 00:08:13,382
Speaker 4: turned to me and she said, are you going.

162
00:08:13,302 --> 00:08:14,701
Speaker 3: To have a natural birth?

163
00:08:15,381 --> 00:08:17,902
Speaker 4: I didn't even understand what she meant, and then once

164
00:08:17,941 --> 00:08:20,142
Speaker 4: it dawned on me that she actually did mean a

165
00:08:20,222 --> 00:08:23,342
Speaker 4: vaginal birth, I thought, how crazy is it that we

166
00:08:23,582 --> 00:08:28,342
Speaker 4: are still categorizing some births as natural and some as

167
00:08:28,381 --> 00:08:29,982
Speaker 4: presumably unnatural.

168
00:08:30,582 --> 00:08:32,382
Speaker 3: And this idea that you.

169
00:08:32,302 --> 00:08:34,622
Speaker 4: Can plan out how your birth is going to go

170
00:08:35,381 --> 00:08:37,021
Speaker 4: is I think part of the issue.

171
00:08:36,822 --> 00:08:39,382
Speaker 2: Or that it's any of their business how you're going

172
00:08:39,422 --> 00:08:39,902
Speaker 2: to do it.

173
00:08:39,942 --> 00:08:44,142
Speaker 1: Isn't it about this increasing move towards Bertha's identity?

174
00:08:44,542 --> 00:08:47,422
Speaker 2: Yes and no, right? Because there was an inquiry in

175
00:08:47,462 --> 00:08:49,662
Speaker 2: New South Wales last year that I think is a

176
00:08:49,702 --> 00:08:51,742
Speaker 2: piece of this puzzle, and it was an inquiry into

177
00:08:51,742 --> 00:08:53,662
Speaker 2: birth trauma. It was the largest of its kind and

178
00:08:53,742 --> 00:08:55,862
Speaker 2: thousands of women spoke about what had happened to them.

179
00:08:55,942 --> 00:08:58,022
Speaker 2: And you couldn't listen to that or read some of

180
00:08:58,022 --> 00:09:00,982
Speaker 2: those accounts and not be deeply moved and troubled by

181
00:09:00,982 --> 00:09:04,142
Speaker 2: what some women have experienced in hospitals. And I reckon

182
00:09:04,182 --> 00:09:06,542
Speaker 2: that it's having the result of doing two things. The

183
00:09:06,582 --> 00:09:09,942
Speaker 2: first is people going I want to take the medication

184
00:09:10,022 --> 00:09:11,542
Speaker 2: of childbirth out of it. I want to go home

185
00:09:11,622 --> 00:09:12,902
Speaker 2: and I want to have a midwife come to my

186
00:09:12,942 --> 00:09:15,222
Speaker 2: home and do it. And I totally understand how you're

187
00:09:15,222 --> 00:09:17,902
Speaker 2: getting to that position. And the other one is I

188
00:09:17,982 --> 00:09:21,622
Speaker 2: want full control. I don't want this forty eight hour

189
00:09:21,742 --> 00:09:26,062
Speaker 2: labor with tears and stitches could start at any time,

190
00:09:26,302 --> 00:09:29,102
Speaker 2: and exactly right, I don't want that. And so I

191
00:09:29,142 --> 00:09:32,102
Speaker 2: can see that people are going both ways. Do you

192
00:09:32,982 --> 00:09:35,542
Speaker 2: see birth trauma as being a big part of this

193
00:09:35,902 --> 00:09:36,422
Speaker 2: story here?

194
00:09:36,462 --> 00:09:36,622
Speaker 3: Oh?

195
00:09:36,702 --> 00:09:39,662
Speaker 1: Have we so many thoughts about this, and again not

196
00:09:39,702 --> 00:09:42,862
Speaker 1: minimizing what anyone wants to call anything that's happened to them,

197
00:09:43,022 --> 00:09:45,502
Speaker 1: but I think that the use of the word trauma

198
00:09:46,382 --> 00:09:51,942
Speaker 1: now that sort of permeates every negative experience. Makes this

199
00:09:52,182 --> 00:09:55,982
Speaker 1: a really difficult conversation to have because there are very

200
00:09:56,022 --> 00:10:00,942
Speaker 1: few women who would say my birth was great. My

201
00:10:01,062 --> 00:10:04,381
Speaker 1: second birth, I would say was traumatic. When you look

202
00:10:04,382 --> 00:10:08,422
Speaker 1: at it on paper. Nothing terrible happened except that I

203
00:10:08,462 --> 00:10:10,742
Speaker 1: really wanted pain medication and there was no it needs

204
00:10:10,622 --> 00:10:13,142
Speaker 1: just available, so I wasn't able to have it. I

205
00:10:13,182 --> 00:10:18,302
Speaker 1: delivered vaginally, everything was fine. I felt very traumatized because

206
00:10:18,342 --> 00:10:19,942
Speaker 1: the birth that I thought I was going to have,

207
00:10:20,102 --> 00:10:21,942
Speaker 1: which was that I would get drugs like I did

208
00:10:21,942 --> 00:10:25,422
Speaker 1: with my first and my third, that didn't happen. I

209
00:10:25,502 --> 00:10:28,502
Speaker 1: nearly had a cesarean the third time, an elective cesarean

210
00:10:28,542 --> 00:10:32,502
Speaker 1: because I was so I'll say traumatized. But you can't

211
00:10:32,502 --> 00:10:34,862
Speaker 1: compare what happened to me to someone who had a

212
00:10:34,902 --> 00:10:37,862
Speaker 1: still birth, someone who had an emergency cesarean. You know,

213
00:10:37,902 --> 00:10:42,062
Speaker 1: I've got friends who had truly medically traumatic berths.

214
00:10:42,182 --> 00:10:46,062
Speaker 2: I don't think that trauma is about comparison or grading

215
00:10:46,102 --> 00:10:48,702
Speaker 2: it though, like I think there's space for acknowledged.

216
00:10:49,142 --> 00:10:50,982
Speaker 1: Leg it would be on the bottom of the leaderboard.

217
00:10:51,062 --> 00:10:54,342
Speaker 2: But even so, I think that there are so many women,

218
00:10:54,822 --> 00:10:58,662
Speaker 2: not just now, but throughout history. I'm sure that my grandmother,

219
00:10:58,702 --> 00:11:01,862
Speaker 2: who had seven babies, would have experienced birth trauma. There

220
00:11:01,862 --> 00:11:03,662
Speaker 2: was no language for it. It was something no one

221
00:11:03,662 --> 00:11:06,582
Speaker 2: cared about. She just disappeared and came back with another baby.

222
00:11:07,142 --> 00:11:10,222
Speaker 2: You know, she lived with complications that no one ever

223
00:11:10,222 --> 00:11:10,702
Speaker 2: cared about.

224
00:11:10,822 --> 00:11:13,782
Speaker 4: And isn't it great that we are now so much

225
00:11:13,822 --> 00:11:17,262
Speaker 4: more open and able to share our experiences about something

226
00:11:17,342 --> 00:11:20,662
Speaker 4: that until as recently as twenty twenty five years ago,

227
00:11:20,982 --> 00:11:23,262
Speaker 4: a lot of the time, male partners were not even

228
00:11:23,302 --> 00:11:25,582
Speaker 4: coming into the room for birth. It was regarded as

229
00:11:25,622 --> 00:11:28,742
Speaker 4: so secret and so shameful in itself, and I think

230
00:11:28,742 --> 00:11:33,422
Speaker 4: it's great that we're opening up discussion about that. That said, Mia,

231
00:11:33,622 --> 00:11:35,942
Speaker 4: you mentioned that part of the reason why your second

232
00:11:35,982 --> 00:11:38,702
Speaker 4: birth was traumatic or was it experience as trauma, was

233
00:11:38,702 --> 00:11:42,062
Speaker 4: because it didn't live up to your expectations. I worry

234
00:11:42,302 --> 00:11:48,302
Speaker 4: that in fetishizing birth stories, we are teaching women who

235
00:11:48,302 --> 00:11:51,102
Speaker 4: have never been through this before that it is something

236
00:11:51,142 --> 00:11:54,022
Speaker 4: that they can control, or that they can narrativevise, that

237
00:11:54,062 --> 00:11:56,982
Speaker 4: they can turn into a neat story, when often it

238
00:11:57,062 --> 00:11:59,742
Speaker 4: isn't that way, and often we don't have any control

239
00:11:59,782 --> 00:12:02,062
Speaker 4: over it. Jesse, I know you really love birth stories.

240
00:12:02,342 --> 00:12:04,062
Speaker 4: Can you explain to me why.

241
00:12:04,062 --> 00:12:07,182
Speaker 2: Obsessed with birth stories? I listen to them all the time,

242
00:12:07,302 --> 00:12:10,582
Speaker 2: and I think I am in awe of women. I'm

243
00:12:10,582 --> 00:12:14,302
Speaker 2: in awe of what we endure and go through. And

244
00:12:14,462 --> 00:12:17,462
Speaker 2: the thing about birth is that there are so many

245
00:12:17,542 --> 00:12:20,382
Speaker 2: twists and turns, like there are so many plot points

246
00:12:20,382 --> 00:12:23,422
Speaker 2: to people's birth stories, and no two are ever the same.

247
00:12:23,462 --> 00:12:25,022
Speaker 2: And I can say that as someone who has listened

248
00:12:25,062 --> 00:12:29,102
Speaker 2: to thousands like it blows my mind what women go through.

249
00:12:29,142 --> 00:12:31,982
Speaker 2: And I do think that there's utility in it. Like

250
00:12:32,102 --> 00:12:35,302
Speaker 2: I immersed myself in education, I was kind of the

251
00:12:35,462 --> 00:12:38,742
Speaker 2: millennial test case of do you think that was helpful?

252
00:12:38,902 --> 00:12:39,102
Speaker 1: Yeah?

253
00:12:39,142 --> 00:12:42,222
Speaker 4: And aren't you by immersing yourself in birth stories, aren't

254
00:12:42,262 --> 00:12:46,382
Speaker 4: you again sort of already projecting what your birth story

255
00:12:46,422 --> 00:12:48,502
Speaker 4: is going to be, how you're going to narrativize it,

256
00:12:48,622 --> 00:12:51,662
Speaker 4: when in reality it's not a story.

257
00:12:51,782 --> 00:12:54,462
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't even mean content that you post about it,

258
00:12:54,502 --> 00:12:56,902
Speaker 1: but just like we think of everything that happens to

259
00:12:56,982 --> 00:12:59,342
Speaker 1: us as content or narratives.

260
00:12:58,982 --> 00:13:01,982
Speaker 4: And you can't help but therefore set up certain expectations

261
00:13:01,982 --> 00:13:03,062
Speaker 4: about how it's going to go.

262
00:13:03,382 --> 00:13:07,982
Speaker 2: I felt prepared, I felt I did somewhat know what

263
00:13:08,142 --> 00:13:11,582
Speaker 2: to expect. I felt likege I knew what I was

264
00:13:11,622 --> 00:13:15,022
Speaker 2: in and I had what I now look back on

265
00:13:15,142 --> 00:13:16,902
Speaker 2: as a great birth. And I think and I had

266
00:13:16,902 --> 00:13:18,462
Speaker 2: people say this to me. When I was pregnant, I

267
00:13:18,502 --> 00:13:21,862
Speaker 2: had an absolute pathological fear of childbirth that I actually

268
00:13:21,862 --> 00:13:23,942
Speaker 2: had to speak to a psychologist about because I'm so scared.

269
00:13:24,022 --> 00:13:27,382
Speaker 1: Okay Stoley right there? Connected do you think.

270
00:13:27,222 --> 00:13:28,982
Speaker 2: Well, isn't it funny that when I was pregnant and

271
00:13:29,022 --> 00:13:30,862
Speaker 2: I immersed myself in all the stuff, I came out

272
00:13:30,942 --> 00:13:31,462
Speaker 2: less scared.

273
00:13:31,782 --> 00:13:33,822
Speaker 1: But you just said, when you were pregnant, you were

274
00:13:33,862 --> 00:13:38,062
Speaker 1: pathologically scared. You also were pretty depressed. But we don't

275
00:13:38,062 --> 00:13:40,662
Speaker 1: know what that's relating to. But what impact do you

276
00:13:40,742 --> 00:13:43,982
Speaker 1: think looking back now knowing all of that, Like the

277
00:13:44,022 --> 00:13:47,062
Speaker 1: Internet almost gives us too much access to too much information.

278
00:13:47,382 --> 00:13:49,022
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I was told this by a lot of

279
00:13:49,022 --> 00:13:51,381
Speaker 2: women during pregnancy. They said, you don't listen to the

280
00:13:51,422 --> 00:13:53,502
Speaker 2: whole positive birth story, like in terms of the person

281
00:13:53,502 --> 00:13:56,142
Speaker 2: on TikTok telling it, like, we are attracted to the negative,

282
00:13:56,142 --> 00:13:59,982
Speaker 2: scary stories. And when I realized that, I really appreciated

283
00:14:00,022 --> 00:14:02,462
Speaker 2: people during pregnancy telling me their positive ones. And I

284
00:14:02,542 --> 00:14:04,382
Speaker 2: really think that we should tell more and more positive

285
00:14:04,382 --> 00:14:06,382
Speaker 2: ones because most of them. I had a midwife say

286
00:14:06,382 --> 00:14:09,742
Speaker 2: to me, the standard birth would make terrible television and

287
00:14:09,862 --> 00:14:13,142
Speaker 2: a terrible movie, because the standard birth is actually a

288
00:14:13,142 --> 00:14:14,502
Speaker 2: lot of boring sitting around.

289
00:14:14,622 --> 00:14:17,342
Speaker 4: Okay, but I'm going to say something controversial. You said

290
00:14:17,422 --> 00:14:20,742
Speaker 4: it taught you what to expect. Well, maybe it shouldn't have,

291
00:14:20,982 --> 00:14:24,622
Speaker 4: because you can't know what to expect and the idea

292
00:14:24,702 --> 00:14:27,622
Speaker 4: that you Okay, the more preparation I do, the better

293
00:14:27,702 --> 00:14:31,582
Speaker 4: prepared I will be. There is no preparation that you

294
00:14:31,662 --> 00:14:32,582
Speaker 4: can do for a.

295
00:14:32,542 --> 00:14:34,302
Speaker 3: Lot of birth outcomes.

296
00:14:33,782 --> 00:14:35,982
Speaker 1: And you would have had the same birth if you

297
00:14:36,142 --> 00:14:37,422
Speaker 1: were prepared or not.

298
00:14:37,702 --> 00:14:40,902
Speaker 2: I felt like I had strategies, and I don't mean

299
00:14:41,102 --> 00:14:45,462
Speaker 2: like necessarily like a fool proof, but for each stage

300
00:14:45,502 --> 00:14:47,542
Speaker 2: I felt like whether it was breathing or whether it

301
00:14:47,542 --> 00:14:50,222
Speaker 2: was a tens machine, I felt as though the information

302
00:14:50,382 --> 00:14:52,542
Speaker 2: and the knowledge was power for me in that instance,

303
00:14:52,582 --> 00:14:53,462
Speaker 2: I really did.

304
00:14:53,342 --> 00:14:56,702
Speaker 1: You had it gave you some aspect of control?

305
00:14:56,862 --> 00:14:58,742
Speaker 2: Yeah, And what I would say about this because then

306
00:14:58,742 --> 00:15:00,542
Speaker 2: maybe the reason I'm interested in it is that I

307
00:15:00,622 --> 00:15:02,902
Speaker 2: was the woman who went to my obstetrician and said,

308
00:15:02,902 --> 00:15:05,342
Speaker 2: all right, electivecy section, it's what I want look me

309
00:15:05,422 --> 00:15:07,742
Speaker 2: in and why.

310
00:15:07,622 --> 00:15:08,142
Speaker 3: Did you do that?

311
00:15:08,222 --> 00:15:09,062
Speaker 1: Because I was terrified.

312
00:15:09,102 --> 00:15:14,222
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I definitely have a thing about control and pain.

313
00:15:14,262 --> 00:15:16,582
Speaker 2: I knew that I had a past trauma involving pain,

314
00:15:16,662 --> 00:15:20,102
Speaker 2: and I had very sound psychological reason why the elective

315
00:15:20,142 --> 00:15:22,822
Speaker 2: sea section would be best for me. And very gently,

316
00:15:23,502 --> 00:15:26,182
Speaker 2: this obsetrician said, I've been doing this for a long time,

317
00:15:26,382 --> 00:15:28,222
Speaker 2: think about it. If you want your elective sea section

318
00:15:28,542 --> 00:15:30,462
Speaker 2: at eight months, absolutely we're going to go for it.

319
00:15:30,702 --> 00:15:33,542
Speaker 2: But just think about it. And this is so specific

320
00:15:33,542 --> 00:15:35,742
Speaker 2: to me. This is not a tale that I am

321
00:15:35,782 --> 00:15:37,822
Speaker 2: telling so that other people do it. But I'm really

322
00:15:37,822 --> 00:15:41,342
Speaker 2: glad that I gave the vaginal option a go and

323
00:15:41,382 --> 00:15:43,702
Speaker 2: that went well for me. My sister did the same thing.

324
00:15:43,782 --> 00:15:46,022
Speaker 2: She ended up with birth trauma. You absolutely can't control it.

325
00:15:46,142 --> 00:15:49,142
Speaker 1: So don't you think it's all about hindsight, not about

326
00:15:49,182 --> 00:15:51,542
Speaker 1: whatever you do, like you get what you get.

327
00:15:51,742 --> 00:15:54,822
Speaker 2: What I do think is worth acknowledging is that elective

328
00:15:55,182 --> 00:15:57,022
Speaker 2: sea sections. And I find it in some of the

329
00:15:57,062 --> 00:15:59,422
Speaker 2: rhetoric and how people talk about it is just never

330
00:16:00,062 --> 00:16:03,342
Speaker 2: the easy way out. Like I know a lot of yeah,

331
00:16:03,462 --> 00:16:07,702
Speaker 2: who the idea that by doing it vaginally it's harder

332
00:16:07,702 --> 00:16:11,342
Speaker 2: and more unpredictable people. I know, I've had really really

333
00:16:11,422 --> 00:16:14,662
Speaker 2: hard this idea of a binary, that there's one where

334
00:16:14,662 --> 00:16:17,382
Speaker 2: you're more in control and where you have your proper

335
00:16:17,462 --> 00:16:19,742
Speaker 2: date and all of that. I think that's a false binary.

336
00:16:19,822 --> 00:16:22,702
Speaker 1: I reject the idea that one is morally superior, or

337
00:16:22,742 --> 00:16:26,342
Speaker 1: makes you more of a woman, or is a preferred experience.

338
00:16:26,422 --> 00:16:28,622
Speaker 1: I find that the one as natural and one.

339
00:16:28,462 --> 00:16:31,062
Speaker 2: As and if this is a corrective to listening to

340
00:16:31,102 --> 00:16:34,182
Speaker 2: what women want, great, I think that that's probably been

341
00:16:34,182 --> 00:16:36,662
Speaker 2: missing since the beginning of time.

342
00:16:36,862 --> 00:16:38,142
Speaker 3: We just have to hope now that.

343
00:16:38,302 --> 00:16:40,102
Speaker 4: I mean, you pointed out that this is a class

344
00:16:40,142 --> 00:16:43,182
Speaker 4: based phenomenon in some ways. So yeah, people are now

345
00:16:43,222 --> 00:16:45,942
Speaker 4: listening to a certain segment of women who want what

346
00:16:45,982 --> 00:16:49,262
Speaker 4: they want, but it will be said that to others.

347
00:16:49,542 --> 00:16:51,902
Speaker 1: I wonder also, how much of it do you think

348
00:16:52,022 --> 00:16:57,382
Speaker 1: is that we have absolutely no tolerance for unpredictability anymore.

349
00:16:58,102 --> 00:17:02,382
Speaker 1: For example, if my phone rings and it's an unknown number, firstly,

350
00:17:02,422 --> 00:17:04,542
Speaker 1: I'm shocked that my phone's wrung because who would ring me?

351
00:17:04,782 --> 00:17:06,662
Speaker 1: And secondly, I'm not going to answer it. I don't

352
00:17:06,662 --> 00:17:09,861
Speaker 1: know who's there. I need to control that. It's the

353
00:17:09,862 --> 00:17:12,702
Speaker 1: same reason I wouldn't just ring either of you. I

354
00:17:12,902 --> 00:17:15,781
Speaker 1: text you to say, can I ring you so that

355
00:17:15,861 --> 00:17:18,861
Speaker 1: the ringing wasn't a surprise?

356
00:17:19,101 --> 00:17:21,181
Speaker 2: Is it about our tolerance or is it because we

357
00:17:21,222 --> 00:17:23,782
Speaker 2: suddenly can Like I wonder if this option was afforded

358
00:17:23,821 --> 00:17:25,061
Speaker 2: to women one hundred years ago.

359
00:17:25,302 --> 00:17:27,141
Speaker 1: Everything I want to watch is on demand, everything I

360
00:17:27,141 --> 00:17:29,461
Speaker 1: want to listen to is on demand. There is no

361
00:17:29,502 --> 00:17:31,661
Speaker 1: one predictability in our life. We can find out if

362
00:17:31,661 --> 00:17:33,142
Speaker 1: we're having a boy or a girl, we can name

363
00:17:33,182 --> 00:17:35,061
Speaker 1: the baby before, we can have a party. We can

364
00:17:35,101 --> 00:17:37,302
Speaker 1: do all of those things. So the idea of just

365
00:17:38,341 --> 00:17:40,981
Speaker 1: when might the baby come? Who knows? How might the

366
00:17:40,982 --> 00:17:41,502
Speaker 1: baby come?

367
00:17:41,621 --> 00:17:42,101
Speaker 3: Who knows?

368
00:17:42,262 --> 00:17:43,181
Speaker 2: Filth countercultural.

369
00:17:43,222 --> 00:17:46,662
Speaker 4: And I think that when you say that, I think

370
00:17:46,702 --> 00:17:50,021
Speaker 4: there's an element there of sort of judging people wanting

371
00:17:50,022 --> 00:17:51,382
Speaker 4: to get under their control.

372
00:17:51,782 --> 00:17:52,782
Speaker 1: Oh no, not at all.

373
00:17:52,901 --> 00:17:55,821
Speaker 4: I would probably be the same, right, okay, because no

374
00:17:56,222 --> 00:17:59,222
Speaker 4: judgment to the not the judgment that you are conveying.

375
00:17:59,302 --> 00:18:03,341
Speaker 4: But the judgment around GLP ones is similar. It's like

376
00:18:03,901 --> 00:18:07,782
Speaker 4: you're not wasting the natural way now, you're taking a.

377
00:18:07,742 --> 00:18:12,302
Speaker 3: Bit easy way out. It feels like a very similar discourse.

378
00:18:12,422 --> 00:18:14,302
Speaker 1: And people used to say that, yeah, about weight loss

379
00:18:14,302 --> 00:18:16,381
Speaker 1: surgery as well, and there was all this digma, and

380
00:18:16,422 --> 00:18:18,341
Speaker 1: people didn't want to say that they'd had it because

381
00:18:18,381 --> 00:18:20,621
Speaker 1: it was the idea that you've done it the easy way.

382
00:18:20,821 --> 00:18:23,622
Speaker 4: And maybe to Jesse's point, it's just that it's available

383
00:18:23,661 --> 00:18:25,581
Speaker 4: now when it wasn't available before.

384
00:18:26,581 --> 00:18:28,902
Speaker 1: In a moment, the sex gap that explains why so

385
00:18:28,942 --> 00:18:31,542
Speaker 1: many women are keeping their legs crossed while men are

386
00:18:31,621 --> 00:18:36,502
Speaker 1: dry humping. It's the dream of every woman to talk

387
00:18:36,542 --> 00:18:40,621
Speaker 1: about sex with her boomer mother, and this week a

388
00:18:40,702 --> 00:18:43,782
Speaker 1: journalist called Hannah Pitard lived that dream and wrote an

389
00:18:43,821 --> 00:18:46,422
Speaker 1: article about it for New York Magazine, who was having

390
00:18:46,462 --> 00:18:49,141
Speaker 1: a conversation with her mother. They were both divorced at

391
00:18:49,141 --> 00:18:51,142
Speaker 1: this point and they were both dating, so they were

392
00:18:51,182 --> 00:18:54,222
Speaker 1: just talking about sex, and her mother, who's sixty eight,

393
00:18:55,101 --> 00:18:58,782
Speaker 1: opened her eyes to this whole issue among older women

394
00:18:58,982 --> 00:19:04,102
Speaker 1: who were dating men who use they're called sexuo pharmaceuticals.

395
00:19:04,101 --> 00:19:07,382
Speaker 1: It's the category of drug made famous by Viagra.

396
00:19:07,182 --> 00:19:10,702
Speaker 2: That addresses like a rectail that's funk correct erecti dysfunction.

397
00:19:11,381 --> 00:19:14,982
Speaker 1: And her mother was complaining that when you're dating men

398
00:19:15,022 --> 00:19:17,581
Speaker 1: around that age, a lot of them use these drugs,

399
00:19:18,182 --> 00:19:21,502
Speaker 1: and the problem is that what it does. I didn't

400
00:19:21,542 --> 00:19:26,702
Speaker 1: realize this but it doesn't guarantee an actual orgasm or

401
00:19:26,861 --> 00:19:32,222
Speaker 1: an ejaculation. But what it does do is create an

402
00:19:32,262 --> 00:19:35,381
Speaker 1: erection that can last for a really, really long time.

403
00:19:35,621 --> 00:19:38,661
Speaker 1: So the average time for male ejaculation during vaginal sex

404
00:19:38,742 --> 00:19:42,022
Speaker 1: is three to seven minutes, but when you have one

405
00:19:42,022 --> 00:19:45,581
Speaker 1: of these sexio pharmaceuticals, it can take twenty five to

406
00:19:45,661 --> 00:19:48,502
Speaker 1: thirty minutes or more and it might never end.

407
00:19:49,022 --> 00:19:51,942
Speaker 2: In a conclusion, I also read that when it does end,

408
00:19:52,381 --> 00:19:55,101
Speaker 2: the time between when it ends and when you're ready

409
00:19:55,141 --> 00:19:58,501
Speaker 2: to go again shortens. So for people it means that

410
00:19:58,661 --> 00:20:00,621
Speaker 2: you know if yes, you want to keep going on.

411
00:20:00,821 --> 00:20:03,741
Speaker 4: I just wish that people listening to the podcast not

412
00:20:03,861 --> 00:20:07,861
Speaker 4: watching it could have seen Jesse's Well, yeah.

413
00:20:07,982 --> 00:20:11,102
Speaker 1: So I once did an in of you with a sexpert,

414
00:20:11,222 --> 00:20:13,702
Speaker 1: an author called Tracy Cox, that is her real name,

415
00:20:13,901 --> 00:20:17,182
Speaker 1: and she was talking about how a lot of couples

416
00:20:17,182 --> 00:20:21,542
Speaker 1: become sexually incompatible as they get older because women aging

417
00:20:21,782 --> 00:20:27,222
Speaker 1: causes their libido to drop, and naturally, men aging causes

418
00:20:27,262 --> 00:20:30,502
Speaker 1: their erections to be not as hard and for them

419
00:20:30,502 --> 00:20:32,862
Speaker 1: to not be able to last as long. And because

420
00:20:32,982 --> 00:20:36,582
Speaker 1: also women experience vaginal dryness as they get old, it's

421
00:20:36,581 --> 00:20:40,101
Speaker 1: another symptom of perimenopause and menopause. That was kind of

422
00:20:40,222 --> 00:20:44,221
Speaker 1: nature's way of making them stay sexually compatible.

423
00:20:43,702 --> 00:20:45,462
Speaker 2: Behinding them both down a little.

424
00:20:45,222 --> 00:20:48,101
Speaker 1: Bit, exactly winding them both down. But now there is

425
00:20:48,182 --> 00:20:53,341
Speaker 1: this medication that can change the way men have sex,

426
00:20:53,782 --> 00:20:57,221
Speaker 1: but not women. And interestingly, when you look at in

427
00:20:57,262 --> 00:21:00,942
Speaker 1: this article, she talked about her mother complaining that there

428
00:21:00,942 --> 00:21:05,262
Speaker 1: are all these men who have their pills and want

429
00:21:05,262 --> 00:21:07,141
Speaker 1: to go for it, and all these women who are

430
00:21:07,141 --> 00:21:09,861
Speaker 1: getting terrible chafing or who were just like that, I

431
00:21:09,901 --> 00:21:13,421
Speaker 1: want to go for half an hour because vaginal lubrication

432
00:21:13,502 --> 00:21:18,302
Speaker 1: occurs during arousal, but water based lubricants typically need to

433
00:21:18,341 --> 00:21:23,221
Speaker 1: be reapplied every five to fifteen minutes. Yeah, it's really

434
00:21:23,262 --> 00:21:27,341
Speaker 1: causing problems both in couples and in people dating. What

435
00:21:27,381 --> 00:21:27,821
Speaker 1: do you think.

436
00:21:28,022 --> 00:21:30,381
Speaker 2: I find it so so interesting because I think it

437
00:21:30,422 --> 00:21:33,221
Speaker 2: speaks more broadly. I was thinking about growing up and

438
00:21:33,262 --> 00:21:35,701
Speaker 2: how we would hear ads on the radio and I

439
00:21:35,742 --> 00:21:38,181
Speaker 2: can't even remember if they were for something specific, but

440
00:21:38,222 --> 00:21:40,901
Speaker 2: a rectil dysfunction was everywhere. It was you would think

441
00:21:41,462 --> 00:21:44,101
Speaker 2: it was life threatening, that it was one of the

442
00:21:44,141 --> 00:21:45,462
Speaker 2: biggest health issues of our time.

443
00:21:45,542 --> 00:21:47,741
Speaker 1: There were billboards everywhere, which is funny.

444
00:21:47,821 --> 00:21:50,742
Speaker 2: Right, because a rectail dysfunction, I mean, sure it can

445
00:21:50,821 --> 00:21:54,621
Speaker 2: be an indictment on your health, but it's actually just

446
00:21:54,661 --> 00:21:57,061
Speaker 2: a symptom of aging, like in the same way that,

447
00:21:57,502 --> 00:22:00,222
Speaker 2: as you say, the female body changes, the male body changes.

448
00:22:00,262 --> 00:22:02,861
Speaker 2: And there was this research out after twenty twenty three

449
00:22:02,901 --> 00:22:05,782
Speaker 2: that said, in the four years before a rectail dysfunction,

450
00:22:06,022 --> 00:22:09,821
Speaker 2: funding was six times higher than that of endometriosis. So

451
00:22:10,061 --> 00:22:13,621
Speaker 2: the focus on making sure that men can you know,

452
00:22:13,702 --> 00:22:16,821
Speaker 2: and keep going, yeah, is so much higher than legitimate.

453
00:22:16,861 --> 00:22:20,581
Speaker 2: But women also like almost like vaginal lubrication is so

454
00:22:20,661 --> 00:22:25,982
Speaker 2: low on their list of health concerns that, as you say, maya,

455
00:22:26,022 --> 00:22:27,781
Speaker 2: they might get the lubrican or whatever, but it's just

456
00:22:27,861 --> 00:22:28,981
Speaker 2: more and more uncomfortable.

457
00:22:29,022 --> 00:22:31,821
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's more like lubricant. It just kind of

458
00:22:32,101 --> 00:22:36,421
Speaker 1: means that penetration is less uncomfortable. It doesn't actually make

459
00:22:36,462 --> 00:22:38,422
Speaker 1: you feel any sort of sexual pleasure.

460
00:22:38,901 --> 00:22:41,861
Speaker 4: Okay, So I'm going to bring a different take to this.

461
00:22:42,182 --> 00:22:45,262
Speaker 4: It's interesting that yet again we're facing the idea of

462
00:22:45,502 --> 00:22:48,901
Speaker 4: science and technology kind of getting ahead of us and

463
00:22:48,982 --> 00:22:51,621
Speaker 4: figuring out what to do about that. It's not unlike

464
00:22:51,661 --> 00:22:54,381
Speaker 4: what we were saying about caesareans. If you want to

465
00:22:54,381 --> 00:22:57,981
Speaker 4: flip it around. Aren't you basically reprimanding men for not

466
00:22:58,101 --> 00:22:59,982
Speaker 4: having sex the natural way?

467
00:23:00,182 --> 00:23:05,022
Speaker 1: No? No, it's more just identifying that it's been unequal

468
00:23:05,101 --> 00:23:08,581
Speaker 1: in terms of it takes two people to have heterosexual

469
00:23:08,661 --> 00:23:13,741
Speaker 1: penetrative sex, but we've interfered with the natural process for

470
00:23:13,821 --> 00:23:14,702
Speaker 1: only one of them.

471
00:23:14,861 --> 00:23:17,981
Speaker 4: Yeah, And my hope is that eventually we'll get ways

472
00:23:18,022 --> 00:23:20,542
Speaker 4: in which women can catch up with them, right, rather

473
00:23:20,581 --> 00:23:22,341
Speaker 4: than sort of all of us giving up, we.

474
00:23:22,341 --> 00:23:25,302
Speaker 2: Should acknowledge as well, like there are increasingly, actually, with

475
00:23:25,422 --> 00:23:29,502
Speaker 2: the awareness of perimenopause and menopause, there are increasingly pharmaceuticals

476
00:23:29,542 --> 00:23:32,782
Speaker 2: on the market that address, you know, women's libido and

477
00:23:32,821 --> 00:23:34,181
Speaker 2: physical issues that they might have.

478
00:23:34,302 --> 00:23:35,782
Speaker 1: They're not very widely known.

479
00:23:35,861 --> 00:23:37,581
Speaker 2: I think that's important to know, right, So they're not

480
00:23:37,742 --> 00:23:41,461
Speaker 2: certainly not as widely popularized, maybe because of stigma about

481
00:23:41,502 --> 00:23:43,222
Speaker 2: women's like sexual desires.

482
00:23:43,222 --> 00:23:45,422
Speaker 1: And also I think the way, from what I understand,

483
00:23:45,502 --> 00:23:47,942
Speaker 1: the way sexual arousal works in men is a little

484
00:23:47,942 --> 00:23:50,422
Speaker 1: more mechanical and in women it's a little bit more cerebral.

485
00:23:50,861 --> 00:23:54,542
Speaker 2: Is more sex always better?

486
00:23:55,141 --> 00:23:55,221
Speaker 4: Like?

487
00:23:55,422 --> 00:23:57,621
Speaker 2: Is there also just a stage? So I've read this

488
00:23:57,702 --> 00:24:01,222
Speaker 2: thing by an expert. It basically further an expert, because

489
00:24:01,262 --> 00:24:04,022
Speaker 2: that's important distinction. I thought at Tracy cos it was

490
00:24:04,022 --> 00:24:07,141
Speaker 2: a pharmaceutical person who was saying, and probably take it

491
00:24:07,182 --> 00:24:09,141
Speaker 2: with a grain of salt, because I don't know what

492
00:24:09,182 --> 00:24:11,181
Speaker 2: company she worked for, But basically it was saying, like,

493
00:24:11,861 --> 00:24:14,621
Speaker 2: sixty percent of sixty year old men need this kind

494
00:24:14,621 --> 00:24:16,702
Speaker 2: of stuff, seventy percent of seventy year old men, and

495
00:24:16,742 --> 00:24:19,502
Speaker 2: by the age of eighty most will need it in order.

496
00:24:19,621 --> 00:24:21,702
Speaker 1: She also said forty percent of forty year old men.

497
00:24:21,821 --> 00:24:22,022
Speaker 5: Yeah.

498
00:24:22,141 --> 00:24:24,741
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that's the kind of rule. And I'm just

499
00:24:24,821 --> 00:24:30,502
Speaker 2: thinking that are we treating this as an urgent health

500
00:24:30,581 --> 00:24:33,341
Speaker 2: concern without first asking the question if it is an

501
00:24:33,422 --> 00:24:35,621
Speaker 2: urgent health concern? And are we framing a problem and

502
00:24:35,661 --> 00:24:36,261
Speaker 2: then fixing it?

503
00:24:36,581 --> 00:24:39,702
Speaker 3: I mean that is we've read countless accounts. I'm sure

504
00:24:39,742 --> 00:24:40,061
Speaker 3: you have.

505
00:24:40,222 --> 00:24:41,901
Speaker 4: In fact, there was a great article in the New

506
00:24:41,942 --> 00:24:45,302
Speaker 4: York Times magazine last year which was about the sex

507
00:24:45,422 --> 00:24:48,821
Speaker 4: drive of older Americans and it was basically pulling together

508
00:24:48,821 --> 00:24:51,941
Speaker 4: this evidence that says old people do still want to

509
00:24:51,942 --> 00:24:56,302
Speaker 4: have sex. Retirement villagers and even nursing homes are full

510
00:24:56,381 --> 00:25:00,182
Speaker 4: of people having sex. Yeah, And it's just that we

511
00:25:00,302 --> 00:25:03,341
Speaker 4: choose not. We don't want to believe that it's uncomfortable

512
00:25:03,381 --> 00:25:05,502
Speaker 4: for us. It would be so much more comfortable for

513
00:25:05,621 --> 00:25:08,302
Speaker 4: us to think they have time to put it away.

514
00:25:08,861 --> 00:25:11,022
Speaker 4: Isn't it cu that they're in love or maybe they

515
00:25:11,022 --> 00:25:12,141
Speaker 4: also want to have sex?

516
00:25:12,302 --> 00:25:15,422
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I should say, even in this New York

517
00:25:15,621 --> 00:25:19,821
Speaker 1: article called Little Blue Pill by Hannah Pittad, she did

518
00:25:19,861 --> 00:25:22,221
Speaker 1: talk to a lot of women who said, you know,

519
00:25:22,262 --> 00:25:24,781
Speaker 1: either in long term relationships or when they're dating, that

520
00:25:25,141 --> 00:25:26,861
Speaker 1: it can be a bit difficult at first when you

521
00:25:26,901 --> 00:25:28,542
Speaker 1: get used to it, and there's pros and there's cons.

522
00:25:28,742 --> 00:25:30,421
Speaker 1: But a lot of them have said that's been a

523
00:25:30,422 --> 00:25:33,662
Speaker 1: fantastic thing for their relationship because certainly, in the case

524
00:25:33,661 --> 00:25:37,302
Speaker 1: of complete and Rechtil dysfunction, they weren't able to have

525
00:25:37,422 --> 00:25:40,661
Speaker 1: penitive sex at all, and that was a problem within

526
00:25:40,702 --> 00:25:41,382
Speaker 1: those couples.

527
00:25:41,462 --> 00:25:43,181
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then I read in this article and then

528
00:25:43,222 --> 00:25:45,741
Speaker 2: in a few others examples of for example, there was

529
00:25:45,742 --> 00:25:47,981
Speaker 2: a woman who was saying that she's kind of fielding

530
00:25:48,022 --> 00:25:51,262
Speaker 2: off these unwanted advances driven by a partner's need to

531
00:25:51,302 --> 00:25:53,821
Speaker 2: get his money worth on the ten dollar pill. And

532
00:25:53,861 --> 00:25:56,621
Speaker 2: what happens is they take the pill, they have this

533
00:25:56,661 --> 00:25:59,182
Speaker 2: physical reaction, often in a completely different room to their

534
00:25:59,222 --> 00:26:01,702
Speaker 2: partner and then it's like all right, I'm ready, Yeah,

535
00:26:01,742 --> 00:26:02,182
Speaker 2: she's going.

536
00:26:02,222 --> 00:26:04,581
Speaker 4: The timing is up to them because they have to

537
00:26:04,621 --> 00:26:06,382
Speaker 4: take the pill at a certain amount of time.

538
00:26:06,462 --> 00:26:09,381
Speaker 2: Before and even with dating, they were saying the pressure

539
00:26:09,742 --> 00:26:12,302
Speaker 2: when you go home with a guy and the guy's thinking, yeah,

540
00:26:12,341 --> 00:26:14,342
Speaker 2: taken now, because if I need to take it now,

541
00:26:14,341 --> 00:26:17,821
Speaker 2: and then when they take it now, there's this internalized

542
00:26:17,861 --> 00:26:20,381
Speaker 2: no matter what age you are as a woman that

543
00:26:20,422 --> 00:26:23,101
Speaker 2: when like even the blue balls myth, the idea that

544
00:26:23,141 --> 00:26:26,782
Speaker 2: if a man is ready, you owe it to him

545
00:26:26,821 --> 00:26:28,822
Speaker 2: to kind of service his needs and that he's.

546
00:26:29,022 --> 00:26:31,142
Speaker 1: And then keep going until he finishes. Yeah.

547
00:26:31,222 --> 00:26:35,141
Speaker 2: Yeah, when this pounding, like this really aggressive sex that

548
00:26:35,182 --> 00:26:37,941
Speaker 2: maybe this lends itself to is not something that women

549
00:26:37,982 --> 00:26:38,782
Speaker 2: ever asked for.

550
00:26:39,141 --> 00:26:42,941
Speaker 1: One woman says, full play is now her getting him

551
00:26:42,982 --> 00:26:44,982
Speaker 1: a glass of water so he can take his blue

552
00:26:44,982 --> 00:26:50,462
Speaker 1: palt and please, before you make any decisions about anything

553
00:26:50,502 --> 00:26:53,782
Speaker 1: really in your life to do with your body or

554
00:26:53,821 --> 00:26:55,861
Speaker 1: your mind, go and talk to a doctor. We are

555
00:26:55,901 --> 00:26:56,502
Speaker 1: not doctors.

556
00:26:57,422 --> 00:27:02,061
Speaker 2: Remember last week we were talking about transparency around cosmetic surgery. Specifically,

557
00:27:02,462 --> 00:27:06,381
Speaker 2: we're talking about the Kardashians and how they were spearheading

558
00:27:06,422 --> 00:27:10,661
Speaker 2: it and it seemed indicative of a broader cultural trend

559
00:27:10,702 --> 00:27:12,581
Speaker 2: that we're not gatekeeping, we're telling everyone all the work

560
00:27:12,621 --> 00:27:14,861
Speaker 2: we've had done. It seems that Bechjard really has her

561
00:27:14,861 --> 00:27:17,702
Speaker 2: finger on the pulse because she has entered the chat.

562
00:27:17,821 --> 00:27:20,421
Speaker 2: She has entered the chat. She is a model and

563
00:27:20,462 --> 00:27:24,101
Speaker 2: a TV presenter, and she just launched a new podcast

564
00:27:24,101 --> 00:27:27,821
Speaker 2: called vein Ish and it is all about cosmetic treatments

565
00:27:27,901 --> 00:27:30,542
Speaker 2: and beauty routines. Here's a little bit of what she

566
00:27:30,581 --> 00:27:31,662
Speaker 2: talks about on the podcast.

567
00:27:31,861 --> 00:27:32,861
Speaker 3: This is just me today.

568
00:27:33,141 --> 00:27:34,262
Speaker 2: I've got fake tan on.

569
00:27:34,462 --> 00:27:37,661
Speaker 5: I've got those false the stick on underlash lashes on.

570
00:27:37,782 --> 00:27:41,542
Speaker 5: I've got hair extensions sewed in. I used a prescription

571
00:27:41,861 --> 00:27:44,462
Speaker 5: lash serum this morning to make my eyelashes grow better,

572
00:27:44,502 --> 00:27:45,742
Speaker 5: but accidentally stuck it in my eye.

573
00:27:45,742 --> 00:27:46,542
Speaker 3: And then I've got pink o.

574
00:27:47,141 --> 00:27:49,341
Speaker 2: I've got a fresh set of shir like gel nails.

575
00:27:49,581 --> 00:27:50,941
Speaker 3: I had in fizzline trays.

576
00:27:50,982 --> 00:27:52,782
Speaker 5: I took them out and I replaced with a fifteen

577
00:27:52,821 --> 00:27:55,901
Speaker 5: minute teeth whitening session. I did infrared sauna this morning.

578
00:27:56,141 --> 00:27:56,862
Speaker 3: I'm drinking my.

579
00:27:56,861 --> 00:28:00,142
Speaker 5: Age Mate anti aging supplement after i had a breakfast

580
00:28:00,141 --> 00:28:04,102
Speaker 5: with super food porridge with my glutamine and collagen supplement smoothie.

581
00:28:04,222 --> 00:28:07,341
Speaker 5: I plucked out every single visible gray hair that I

582
00:28:07,381 --> 00:28:10,262
Speaker 5: could find. I use my prescription retino. I used my

583
00:28:10,302 --> 00:28:13,502
Speaker 5: hyaluronic HB five. I use my vitamin C serum. I

584
00:28:13,542 --> 00:28:17,262
Speaker 5: stuck my silicon nipple pads on. I overdrew my lips,

585
00:28:17,302 --> 00:28:19,461
Speaker 5: I contoured my face. I pulled my hair back in

586
00:28:19,502 --> 00:28:22,742
Speaker 5: a really tight pony to give myself a non surgical

587
00:28:22,782 --> 00:28:23,222
Speaker 5: browl if.

588
00:28:23,422 --> 00:28:25,661
Speaker 3: Well, it's on into this studio. She did all that

589
00:28:25,702 --> 00:28:26,941
Speaker 3: before seven thirty this morning.

590
00:28:28,621 --> 00:28:29,382
Speaker 1: She's just a light.

591
00:28:29,661 --> 00:28:32,622
Speaker 2: She actually has every right to look that good like that.

592
00:28:32,621 --> 00:28:35,141
Speaker 1: That's a lot of work. Talk about labor. She didn't

593
00:28:35,182 --> 00:28:37,581
Speaker 1: talk a lot there, but not to say she won't.

594
00:28:37,742 --> 00:28:41,542
Speaker 1: But that was more about just what it took non surgically.

595
00:28:42,022 --> 00:28:42,742
Speaker 1: So get ready.

596
00:28:42,902 --> 00:28:45,862
Speaker 2: Their approach is, and this is a quote, no more gatekeeping.

597
00:28:45,902 --> 00:28:47,941
Speaker 2: We're getting real and putting our bodies and faces on

598
00:28:47,982 --> 00:28:50,741
Speaker 2: the line to help people feel more comfortable to be

599
00:28:50,782 --> 00:28:52,741
Speaker 2: themselves because we didn't wake up like this. And it

600
00:28:52,862 --> 00:28:57,622
Speaker 2: is about the cosmetic enhancements that they have felt shame about,

601
00:28:57,782 --> 00:28:59,742
Speaker 2: like that people haven't spoken about for a long time.

602
00:28:59,742 --> 00:29:03,222
Speaker 2: For a long time, bet Judd has been criticized or

603
00:29:03,222 --> 00:29:05,702
Speaker 2: scrutinized about what she has or hasn't had done.

604
00:29:05,902 --> 00:29:06,662
Speaker 1: I was speaking to a.

605
00:29:06,582 --> 00:29:09,462
Speaker 2: Friend about this because I thought, oh, I feel exhausted,

606
00:29:09,661 --> 00:29:12,862
Speaker 2: like if I need to get a sperm facial, salmon

607
00:29:12,942 --> 00:29:16,221
Speaker 2: sperm facial, or a browlifter, a nose job. Am I

608
00:29:16,302 --> 00:29:19,982
Speaker 2: just is this kind of being normalized. And a friend

609
00:29:19,982 --> 00:29:22,941
Speaker 2: said to me, I'm finding it so refreshing because I

610
00:29:22,982 --> 00:29:27,822
Speaker 2: am sick of being told by beauty influencers that I

611
00:29:27,862 --> 00:29:30,102
Speaker 2: just need to buy this fifteen dollar moistizer. I would

612
00:29:30,342 --> 00:29:34,342
Speaker 2: far prefer Beckjudd sit there and go here's my long list.

613
00:29:34,462 --> 00:29:36,981
Speaker 2: I'm going to be completely honest and transparent with you

614
00:29:37,182 --> 00:29:39,582
Speaker 2: and then pick and choose, which I thought was interesting.

615
00:29:39,622 --> 00:29:41,142
Speaker 1: It's like the credits at the end of a film.

616
00:29:41,182 --> 00:29:42,582
Speaker 1: You know, you went to a film and then you're like,

617
00:29:43,182 --> 00:29:45,782
Speaker 1: look how many people it took to make that film.

618
00:29:46,102 --> 00:29:49,582
Speaker 1: I've got some scarletous gossip about Jennifer Aniston.

619
00:29:49,982 --> 00:29:50,942
Speaker 3: Oh I love this.

620
00:29:51,302 --> 00:29:53,782
Speaker 1: She turned fifty six a few months ago. That's not

621
00:29:53,822 --> 00:29:54,221
Speaker 1: the gossip.

622
00:29:54,262 --> 00:29:54,422
Speaker 4: Though.

623
00:29:54,462 --> 00:29:57,502
Speaker 1: She seems to have a new boyfriend and he's a hypnotist.

624
00:29:57,782 --> 00:30:00,382
Speaker 4: A hypnotist like Andrew Garfield with the Witch.

625
00:30:00,661 --> 00:30:04,142
Speaker 2: This is all real trend just as in he does hypnotis.

626
00:30:04,382 --> 00:30:06,182
Speaker 1: I think maybe that's how she met him. So Jim

627
00:30:06,262 --> 00:30:09,022
Speaker 1: Curtis is reportedly in his early fifties, a little hard

628
00:30:09,062 --> 00:30:12,181
Speaker 1: to nail down his actual age. He's a hypnotist, a

629
00:30:12,262 --> 00:30:16,502
Speaker 1: transformational coach, and an author. You can go and look

630
00:30:16,542 --> 00:30:20,262
Speaker 1: him up on Instagram. I did. He's like a coach, right,

631
00:30:20,382 --> 00:30:21,981
Speaker 1: and so here's what he sounds like.

632
00:30:22,142 --> 00:30:24,782
Speaker 6: How do I release my ex from my mind? This

633
00:30:24,862 --> 00:30:27,782
Speaker 6: is a question that I was asked recently, and I'll

634
00:30:27,782 --> 00:30:28,181
Speaker 6: tell you this.

635
00:30:28,862 --> 00:30:29,302
Speaker 4: You don't.

636
00:30:29,782 --> 00:30:32,661
Speaker 6: Your ex is part of your memories. So instead of

637
00:30:32,982 --> 00:30:36,582
Speaker 6: obsessing on how to remove your ex from your mind,

638
00:30:37,062 --> 00:30:40,302
Speaker 6: start to focus on how you expand your own energy,

639
00:30:40,661 --> 00:30:44,582
Speaker 6: with your own acceptance, with your own forgiveness, so you

640
00:30:44,661 --> 00:30:47,022
Speaker 6: become such a powerful person within.

641
00:30:47,502 --> 00:30:49,062
Speaker 1: Those Yes, so you get the idea.

642
00:30:49,262 --> 00:30:53,142
Speaker 3: I actually find that very powerful. I was getting into

643
00:30:53,222 --> 00:30:54,661
Speaker 3: that I hypnotized.

644
00:30:54,702 --> 00:30:57,382
Speaker 1: I didn't mean to interrupt you. She has recently spoken

645
00:30:57,382 --> 00:31:00,501
Speaker 1: about how she's used hypnotherapy because she's got a very

646
00:31:00,542 --> 00:31:03,342
Speaker 1: famous fear of flying. She's terrified flying. I've also had

647
00:31:03,422 --> 00:31:06,742
Speaker 1: hypnosis to get over my fear of you. Yeah, it did.

648
00:31:07,742 --> 00:31:08,902
Speaker 2: Have you ever seen hypnotis?

649
00:31:08,982 --> 00:31:13,262
Speaker 1: No, But I'm really open to think too. So anyway

650
00:31:13,262 --> 00:31:15,262
Speaker 1: back to him, he's kind of like got that Bradley

651
00:31:15,302 --> 00:31:19,862
Speaker 1: Cooper look. He's very handsome. And they've been seen together

652
00:31:19,942 --> 00:31:23,982
Speaker 1: on trips to Majorca and big Sir, like near Malibu,

653
00:31:24,222 --> 00:31:26,582
Speaker 1: but in Mayoka, they're there with Jason Bateman. They're holiday

654
00:31:26,742 --> 00:31:28,102
Speaker 1: Jason Bateman in Spain.

655
00:31:27,822 --> 00:31:31,022
Speaker 4: And I feel like Jason Bateman is Jennifer Anison's most

656
00:31:31,062 --> 00:31:34,622
Speaker 4: important person. Like that's how you know when something serious

657
00:31:34,702 --> 00:31:37,382
Speaker 4: is when she introduces someone to Jason Bateman. They're best friends.

658
00:31:37,462 --> 00:31:39,622
Speaker 4: They talk about how they have dinner every Sunday night.

659
00:31:39,902 --> 00:31:43,102
Speaker 4: He's constantly talking about her on SmartLess, his podcast. Like

660
00:31:43,182 --> 00:31:44,142
Speaker 4: that means it's serious.

661
00:31:44,302 --> 00:31:47,582
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, she has not had a public relationship that

662
00:31:47,622 --> 00:31:51,501
Speaker 1: we know about since she's split from Justin through in

663
00:31:51,661 --> 00:31:54,622
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. None of them have confirmed it's white scarlet

664
00:31:54,702 --> 00:31:59,102
Speaker 1: scossip after the break? Are we seeing the end of university?

665
00:31:59,262 --> 00:32:01,582
Speaker 1: This is going to lead to some heated debate here.

666
00:32:01,622 --> 00:32:02,582
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about it.

667
00:32:02,502 --> 00:32:06,782
Speaker 2: Next one Unlimited out loud Access. We drop episodes every

668
00:32:06,822 --> 00:32:11,461
Speaker 2: Tuesday and Thursday exclusively from Mama May. Subscribers follow the

669
00:32:11,502 --> 00:32:13,382
Speaker 2: link in the show notes to get us in your

670
00:32:13,382 --> 00:32:16,221
Speaker 2: ears five days a week, and a huge thank you

671
00:32:16,382 --> 00:32:22,062
Speaker 2: to all our current subscribers.

672
00:32:23,582 --> 00:32:26,941
Speaker 4: Don't go to university in twenty twenty six, Just don't.

673
00:32:27,502 --> 00:32:30,902
Speaker 4: That advice comes from an unlikely source. Jenna Price, an

674
00:32:31,022 --> 00:32:33,822
Speaker 4: education writer and columnist in the Citney Morning Herald who

675
00:32:33,822 --> 00:32:37,542
Speaker 4: herself has a doctorate. Price writes, I spent my entire

676
00:32:37,661 --> 00:32:40,701
Speaker 4: young parenthood urging my children to study hard and to

677
00:32:40,782 --> 00:32:44,862
Speaker 4: go to university. Now, she says, parents need to stop pushing.

678
00:32:45,222 --> 00:32:48,461
Speaker 4: Do not force the next generation onto a treadmill with

679
00:32:48,582 --> 00:32:52,582
Speaker 4: no safety barriers, no assurance, and no confidence in the future.

680
00:32:53,942 --> 00:32:56,181
Speaker 4: I had to say this article made me really sad.

681
00:32:56,622 --> 00:32:59,542
Speaker 4: It used to be that education was a silver bullet.

682
00:32:59,582 --> 00:33:01,701
Speaker 4: That's certainly the message that I was getting when I

683
00:33:01,742 --> 00:33:03,822
Speaker 4: grew up. It was a way that we ensured a

684
00:33:03,902 --> 00:33:07,262
Speaker 4: level playing field for everyone and an opportunity if you

685
00:33:07,382 --> 00:33:10,421
Speaker 4: worked hard, you could move yourself up the social ladder.

686
00:33:10,942 --> 00:33:15,661
Speaker 4: But now successive governments are defunding the sector. AI is

687
00:33:15,742 --> 00:33:17,741
Speaker 4: leading us to question the whole purpose of what an

688
00:33:17,862 --> 00:33:20,942
Speaker 4: education is, let alone a higher education. And I can

689
00:33:21,022 --> 00:33:24,142
Speaker 4: kind of see Jenna Price's point. It does seem like

690
00:33:24,222 --> 00:33:27,342
Speaker 4: a gamble, when before it seemed like the suurest thing

691
00:33:27,502 --> 00:33:28,342
Speaker 4: the ultimate goal.

692
00:33:28,462 --> 00:33:28,702
Speaker 3: Jesse.

693
00:33:29,302 --> 00:33:31,502
Speaker 4: I know this made you feel sad too, because that's

694
00:33:31,542 --> 00:33:35,182
Speaker 4: how you commented on it in the Slack, But isn't

695
00:33:35,182 --> 00:33:35,982
Speaker 4: it realistic?

696
00:33:36,022 --> 00:33:36,701
Speaker 3: At this point?

697
00:33:37,102 --> 00:33:40,342
Speaker 2: It made me really sad. And there's a I suppose

698
00:33:40,382 --> 00:33:42,502
Speaker 2: a point that Jenna Price made in this that I

699
00:33:42,502 --> 00:33:45,142
Speaker 2: feel is being missed, and it's the words next year.

700
00:33:45,622 --> 00:33:49,102
Speaker 2: So she says, don't go to university next year. And

701
00:33:49,142 --> 00:33:51,142
Speaker 2: the reason that she says that is because there are

702
00:33:51,182 --> 00:33:56,461
Speaker 2: some really specific policy issues at play. I have a

703
00:33:56,502 --> 00:33:59,822
Speaker 2: lot of friends who moved into academia and they will

704
00:33:59,862 --> 00:34:04,222
Speaker 2: talk about the job losses. The gutting of entire departments

705
00:34:04,702 --> 00:34:11,341
Speaker 2: of history, of sociology, of politics has just been so devastating,

706
00:34:11,462 --> 00:34:13,182
Speaker 2: especially at a time I would argue we need.

707
00:34:13,022 --> 00:34:14,542
Speaker 1: It, and well has that been?

708
00:34:15,182 --> 00:34:19,181
Speaker 2: So there's a few reasons. One big one is that

709
00:34:19,261 --> 00:34:22,422
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty under the Morrison government they had like

710
00:34:22,462 --> 00:34:26,381
Speaker 2: a job ready graduates package, and it meant that humanities

711
00:34:26,422 --> 00:34:29,102
Speaker 2: became far more expensive to study one hundred and seventeen

712
00:34:29,102 --> 00:34:30,022
Speaker 2: percent increase.

713
00:34:29,741 --> 00:34:31,181
Speaker 3: Because it was less vocational.

714
00:34:31,422 --> 00:34:33,582
Speaker 2: Though it was it was less vocational, but basically.

715
00:34:33,302 --> 00:34:36,421
Speaker 1: Dading that an arts degree costs fifty thousand dollars.

716
00:34:36,582 --> 00:34:39,382
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's become way, way, way more expensive. And so

717
00:34:39,422 --> 00:34:42,902
Speaker 2: what that means is that they went look engineering, stem,

718
00:34:42,982 --> 00:34:44,982
Speaker 2: all of that. That's what we want now.

719
00:34:45,062 --> 00:34:46,222
Speaker 1: All those degrees are cheaper.

720
00:34:46,382 --> 00:34:48,901
Speaker 2: Well basically they're just more incentives to do them right right,

721
00:34:49,022 --> 00:34:54,622
Speaker 2: And what that means is that there's defunding of certain subjects,

722
00:34:54,741 --> 00:34:57,982
Speaker 2: whether that be because I suppose on paper it's like, oh, historian,

723
00:34:58,221 --> 00:35:00,741
Speaker 2: what do you need a philosopher? A philosopher, what do

724
00:35:00,741 --> 00:35:03,261
Speaker 2: you need one of them for? Well, the reason that

725
00:35:03,342 --> 00:35:05,622
Speaker 2: you need one for is because of something called like

726
00:35:05,781 --> 00:35:09,662
Speaker 2: peer reviewed research, which is like an understanding of all

727
00:35:09,741 --> 00:35:11,781
Speaker 2: human knowledge that has come before us, like when I

728
00:35:11,781 --> 00:35:14,381
Speaker 2: went to university. Mayor, I'll explain this to you because

729
00:35:14,422 --> 00:35:18,262
Speaker 2: you wouldn't know try and use small words I an cumuli.

730
00:35:18,302 --> 00:35:20,261
Speaker 2: Are you get like readers?

731
00:35:20,422 --> 00:35:21,301
Speaker 3: Do you know what a reader is?

732
00:35:22,102 --> 00:35:22,422
Speaker 1: Okay?

733
00:35:22,542 --> 00:35:24,142
Speaker 2: So it's like when you read, you like there are

734
00:35:24,181 --> 00:35:25,781
Speaker 2: like words on a page and it like you can

735
00:35:25,862 --> 00:35:31,142
Speaker 2: almost hear them in your head. Anyway, I'm trying to

736
00:35:31,181 --> 00:35:35,261
Speaker 2: explain reading to MEA a reader is when you get

737
00:35:35,302 --> 00:35:38,582
Speaker 2: like a whole lot of the most influential work in

738
00:35:38,622 --> 00:35:42,781
Speaker 2: a particular like whether it's philosophy or history like let's

739
00:35:42,781 --> 00:35:45,102
Speaker 2: say World War two, right, and it's got the most

740
00:35:45,142 --> 00:35:48,062
Speaker 2: important chapters ever written on it. You with someone who

741
00:35:48,102 --> 00:35:50,542
Speaker 2: are not in university, you actually don't have access to that,

742
00:35:50,661 --> 00:35:52,261
Speaker 2: Like I now, not being a university, I don't have

743
00:35:52,342 --> 00:35:55,062
Speaker 2: access to any of that knowledge. Right, there's a question

744
00:35:55,142 --> 00:35:59,062
Speaker 2: mark does it's yeah? But basically the point is that

745
00:35:59,462 --> 00:36:03,941
Speaker 2: you have access to a certain level of knowledge and

746
00:36:04,622 --> 00:36:08,382
Speaker 2: rigor and skills that have never been more important, like

747
00:36:08,741 --> 00:36:11,781
Speaker 2: critical thinking, like judgment, all of that. And there was

748
00:36:11,822 --> 00:36:15,421
Speaker 2: this great article in The Conversation which had as the headline,

749
00:36:15,582 --> 00:36:18,781
Speaker 2: AI is driving down the price of knowledge and the

750
00:36:18,822 --> 00:36:23,421
Speaker 2: knowledge premium is deflating. So basically knowledge has become this commodity.

751
00:36:23,542 --> 00:36:25,582
Speaker 1: But isn't that good because it means that knowledge is

752
00:36:25,622 --> 00:36:29,741
Speaker 1: more accessible. Because you said before tertiary education was the

753
00:36:29,781 --> 00:36:31,942
Speaker 1: great equalizer, it wasn't because a lot of people couldn't

754
00:36:31,942 --> 00:36:35,102
Speaker 1: afford to go to university. So back in nineteen eighty nine,

755
00:36:35,302 --> 00:36:38,301
Speaker 1: twenty percent of high school students went on to university,

756
00:36:39,142 --> 00:36:41,501
Speaker 1: and it sort of increased by about ten percent each

757
00:36:41,582 --> 00:36:45,942
Speaker 1: decade until the last couple of years where it started

758
00:36:45,942 --> 00:36:48,301
Speaker 1: to go backwards for the first time. It's now at

759
00:36:48,422 --> 00:36:50,622
Speaker 1: forty one percent, which is the lowest it's been since

760
00:36:50,661 --> 00:36:55,622
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, And partly they say that's because there's more employment,

761
00:36:56,022 --> 00:36:58,901
Speaker 1: so there are more job opportunities for people, and they

762
00:36:58,942 --> 00:37:02,661
Speaker 1: don't have to necessarily be tertially educated. But if you are,

763
00:37:03,302 --> 00:37:07,022
Speaker 1: you're likely to earn between twenty five to ninety percent

764
00:37:07,142 --> 00:37:11,462
Speaker 1: more as someone with tertiar education in your career, so

765
00:37:11,502 --> 00:37:13,661
Speaker 1: there's still a lot of reasons. And then of course

766
00:37:13,661 --> 00:37:17,542
Speaker 1: there are some jobs you can't do like doctor, doctor, lawyer,

767
00:37:17,942 --> 00:37:20,941
Speaker 1: architect without some kind of qualification.

768
00:37:21,302 --> 00:37:23,142
Speaker 2: So there's a few things that have happened. The first

769
00:37:23,221 --> 00:37:25,582
Speaker 2: is COVID I think was a massive disruptor to this

770
00:37:25,741 --> 00:37:28,502
Speaker 2: entire industry because the international students and all of that,

771
00:37:28,542 --> 00:37:30,502
Speaker 2: and that was like a big source of income for

772
00:37:30,622 --> 00:37:32,222
Speaker 2: universities like that had.

773
00:37:32,221 --> 00:37:33,982
Speaker 1: And it just got cut off, yeah, overnight.

774
00:37:34,181 --> 00:37:37,142
Speaker 2: But interestingly, as you say, in the UK and the US,

775
00:37:37,181 --> 00:37:39,261
Speaker 2: they've done a big study of kind of jobs to

776
00:37:39,261 --> 00:37:42,661
Speaker 2: get you into the workforce and requirements for degrees. As

777
00:37:42,701 --> 00:37:46,782
Speaker 2: AI skyrockets, requirements for your first job, you no longer

778
00:37:46,781 --> 00:37:49,342
Speaker 2: need a degree because it's like that knowledge they assume

779
00:37:49,422 --> 00:37:51,542
Speaker 2: is already there. But what I would argue is that

780
00:37:51,542 --> 00:37:53,902
Speaker 2: the knowledge isn't already there. We think it is, but

781
00:37:53,942 --> 00:37:56,542
Speaker 2: it's not to the same standard like what you learn

782
00:37:56,582 --> 00:38:00,701
Speaker 2: in a university degree, what you learn about synthesizing knowledge

783
00:38:01,102 --> 00:38:03,462
Speaker 2: is not available on chat GPT. It simply isn't.

784
00:38:03,661 --> 00:38:05,861
Speaker 4: I've got a lot of thoughts about this, and I

785
00:38:05,902 --> 00:38:07,982
Speaker 4: want to pick up on the idea of that. Even

786
00:38:08,261 --> 00:38:12,181
Speaker 4: you know, thirty years ago, insity was for people who

787
00:38:12,181 --> 00:38:14,462
Speaker 4: could afford it. I think what we've seen in the

788
00:38:14,542 --> 00:38:17,661
Speaker 4: last thirty forty years is this idea of education as

789
00:38:17,741 --> 00:38:21,822
Speaker 4: something that adds value to an employee and to an employer.

790
00:38:21,902 --> 00:38:24,782
Speaker 3: And to life. Well, that's what I'm democracy.

791
00:38:25,142 --> 00:38:27,261
Speaker 4: When I was at university, the big thing that we

792
00:38:27,261 --> 00:38:29,662
Speaker 4: were meant to be learning was how to code. Well,

793
00:38:29,822 --> 00:38:32,022
Speaker 4: now we don't need to code because the machines know

794
00:38:32,062 --> 00:38:36,022
Speaker 4: how to code. So I'm very wary of anyone telling you, like,

795
00:38:36,142 --> 00:38:39,422
Speaker 4: this is the skill you need to learn to be marketable. Today,

796
00:38:39,502 --> 00:38:42,221
Speaker 4: it turns out that maybe the skills you need to

797
00:38:42,342 --> 00:38:46,342
Speaker 4: learn to be marketable are much less tangible or concrete

798
00:38:46,342 --> 00:38:48,781
Speaker 4: than that. And there are things like learning how to

799
00:38:48,822 --> 00:38:52,142
Speaker 4: read something and ask questions and think critically about it afterwards,

800
00:38:52,181 --> 00:38:55,542
Speaker 4: and that stuff is also fun as well. And I

801
00:38:55,582 --> 00:38:58,942
Speaker 4: think we've gotten this narrative coming out of Silicon Valley

802
00:38:58,982 --> 00:39:02,262
Speaker 4: that university is for elites and it's silly. Like Peter Teele,

803
00:39:02,342 --> 00:39:05,382
Speaker 4: for instance, the venture capitalist has been giving out scholarships

804
00:39:05,701 --> 00:39:08,381
Speaker 4: to young people to not go to university, to go

805
00:39:08,422 --> 00:39:11,862
Speaker 4: and work for him in Silicon Valley, and he's pushing

806
00:39:11,862 --> 00:39:15,102
Speaker 4: this idea that university is again for out of touch elites.

807
00:39:15,221 --> 00:39:17,142
Speaker 4: And I just want to push back on that and

808
00:39:17,181 --> 00:39:20,102
Speaker 4: say that it would be so much nicer if university

809
00:39:20,221 --> 00:39:22,782
Speaker 4: was seen as a place where you could learn knowledge

810
00:39:22,822 --> 00:39:25,502
Speaker 4: for knowledge's sake. It's not about turning yourself into a.

811
00:39:25,422 --> 00:39:26,742
Speaker 3: More productive worker.

812
00:39:26,902 --> 00:39:30,542
Speaker 4: It's about reading some really great books and like talking

813
00:39:30,542 --> 00:39:33,222
Speaker 4: about what great thinkers have thought through history.

814
00:39:33,382 --> 00:39:37,221
Speaker 1: Yeah it's not for everyone, though, because for me, I

815
00:39:37,261 --> 00:39:39,821
Speaker 1: didn't really know what I wanted to do, but just

816
00:39:40,422 --> 00:39:42,102
Speaker 1: UNI didn't suit me. Like all the things that you

817
00:39:42,181 --> 00:39:46,422
Speaker 1: talked about loving about university and big ideas and sitting

818
00:39:46,462 --> 00:39:49,462
Speaker 1: around and thinking, I found it sort of too slow

819
00:39:49,502 --> 00:39:52,102
Speaker 1: and too big. Not that I was better than it,

820
00:39:52,142 --> 00:39:54,102
Speaker 1: but I wanted to sort of get stuck in and

821
00:39:54,261 --> 00:39:58,102
Speaker 1: get my hands dirty rather than thinking, yeah, it just

822
00:39:58,142 --> 00:39:58,821
Speaker 1: didn't suit me.

823
00:39:58,942 --> 00:40:00,582
Speaker 2: Which I think is a fair point. And I think

824
00:40:00,622 --> 00:40:04,221
Speaker 2: that with limited resources, the experience of being at university

825
00:40:04,261 --> 00:40:06,382
Speaker 2: has changed and is probably far worse than it was

826
00:40:06,422 --> 00:40:09,502
Speaker 2: when I was at university, even fifteen years ago.

827
00:40:09,022 --> 00:40:11,861
Speaker 1: I have a cultural time at university because I grew up,

828
00:40:11,862 --> 00:40:14,702
Speaker 1: of course, watching all you know, all the American movies

829
00:40:14,741 --> 00:40:16,982
Speaker 1: and college life, and you did have that. You went

830
00:40:17,022 --> 00:40:19,781
Speaker 1: to Harvard, you had college life, Amelia. But I want

831
00:40:19,781 --> 00:40:22,622
Speaker 1: to ask you how much that colored your experience of

832
00:40:22,741 --> 00:40:25,662
Speaker 1: university and then Jesse, if you did that in Australia.

833
00:40:25,822 --> 00:40:26,022
Speaker 2: Yeah.

834
00:40:26,062 --> 00:40:28,422
Speaker 4: Part of what I loved about the fact that everyone

835
00:40:28,462 --> 00:40:31,942
Speaker 4: at my university lived on campus was that you just

836
00:40:32,022 --> 00:40:35,542
Speaker 4: had meals every day with different people. You'd meet someone

837
00:40:35,542 --> 00:40:38,261
Speaker 4: in a class and then go and have lunch together afterwards.

838
00:40:38,462 --> 00:40:40,502
Speaker 4: Every single day, three meals a day. You're eating with

839
00:40:40,542 --> 00:40:43,502
Speaker 4: different people, You're talking about different things. There was a

840
00:40:43,542 --> 00:40:46,382
Speaker 4: sense that you were learning how to talk about ideas

841
00:40:46,422 --> 00:40:49,942
Speaker 4: and disagree with people in a respectful way.

842
00:40:50,422 --> 00:40:51,821
Speaker 1: Ah, that's interesting.

843
00:40:52,062 --> 00:40:54,661
Speaker 4: My very first day there, we did something where I

844
00:40:54,741 --> 00:40:56,821
Speaker 4: was divided into a little learning group and we went

845
00:40:56,862 --> 00:41:00,102
Speaker 4: around to introduce ourselves and there was a guy in

846
00:41:00,142 --> 00:41:02,341
Speaker 4: the group who said, my name is Mark, and I'm

847
00:41:02,342 --> 00:41:05,821
Speaker 4: a Republican from New York And that was how he

848
00:41:05,862 --> 00:41:08,582
Speaker 4: introduced himself. And he was really proud of the fact

849
00:41:08,582 --> 00:41:11,741
Speaker 4: that he was conservative on a campus where, to be fair,

850
00:41:11,822 --> 00:41:14,221
Speaker 4: there were not a lot of conservatives. And by the

851
00:41:14,342 --> 00:41:17,582
Speaker 4: end of our four years there, he was planning the

852
00:41:17,902 --> 00:41:21,822
Speaker 4: same sex marriage of his best friend to his partner,

853
00:41:22,261 --> 00:41:24,821
Speaker 4: something he never thought that he would have done when

854
00:41:25,062 --> 00:41:28,062
Speaker 4: back back in a much more conservative era when same

855
00:41:28,062 --> 00:41:30,622
Speaker 4: sex marriage was still very much being hotly debated.

856
00:41:30,942 --> 00:41:33,382
Speaker 3: So he had an ideological evolution.

857
00:41:33,062 --> 00:41:36,422
Speaker 4: By meeting new people and by being exposed to new ideas.

858
00:41:36,502 --> 00:41:38,941
Speaker 4: And I think about that a lot, because I think

859
00:41:38,982 --> 00:41:41,741
Speaker 4: that's really the main value of what I got out

860
00:41:41,781 --> 00:41:42,701
Speaker 4: of that experience.

861
00:41:43,302 --> 00:41:46,022
Speaker 2: I didn't live on campus. I think that really changes

862
00:41:46,142 --> 00:41:49,062
Speaker 2: your experience of it. But they're some of the experiences

863
00:41:49,102 --> 00:41:53,182
Speaker 2: that shaped me the most. Like I learned from actual historians,

864
00:41:53,302 --> 00:41:56,181
Speaker 2: and I majored in Holocaust studies and was taught by

865
00:41:56,302 --> 00:41:58,661
Speaker 2: a man who lost both his parents in the Holocaust

866
00:41:58,862 --> 00:42:01,461
Speaker 2: and fled Europe, and he was worked at the Sydney

867
00:42:01,502 --> 00:42:06,221
Speaker 2: Jewish Museum. Like stuff like that, you and learning, Hey,

868
00:42:06,302 --> 00:42:10,301
Speaker 2: I can't give you that experience, no, no learning, research

869
00:42:11,022 --> 00:42:13,502
Speaker 2: principles that have come in handy and in what I

870
00:42:13,582 --> 00:42:16,781
Speaker 2: do every day. And that's why this conversation feels so

871
00:42:16,982 --> 00:42:21,302
Speaker 2: existential to me, because yes, it's about university policy and

872
00:42:21,382 --> 00:42:23,782
Speaker 2: what universities look like in Australia next year. But actually

873
00:42:23,822 --> 00:42:26,422
Speaker 2: I think it does belong to a broader story about

874
00:42:26,462 --> 00:42:31,302
Speaker 2: this anti intellectualism I feel that almost was pushing through

875
00:42:31,422 --> 00:42:33,502
Speaker 2: during COVID maybe, and.

876
00:42:33,942 --> 00:42:36,502
Speaker 4: It's part of why I would argue in the US,

877
00:42:36,622 --> 00:42:39,701
Speaker 4: the Trump administration is doing all it can to basically

878
00:42:39,701 --> 00:42:42,421
Speaker 4: bring universities to their nees because they know that these

879
00:42:42,422 --> 00:42:46,741
Speaker 4: are potentially dangerous and subversive places. When we talk about

880
00:42:46,781 --> 00:42:49,062
Speaker 4: love of learning, that's so abstract. But I'm glad that

881
00:42:49,102 --> 00:42:52,661
Speaker 4: you mentioned a specific thing that you learned and studied, Jesse,

882
00:42:52,741 --> 00:42:55,181
Speaker 4: and how it stuck with you, because my most amazing

883
00:42:55,181 --> 00:42:58,302
Speaker 4: experience was I hated maths in high school. I stopped

884
00:42:58,342 --> 00:43:00,102
Speaker 4: doing it at the end of year ten. I was

885
00:43:00,142 --> 00:43:03,301
Speaker 4: so bad at it. I would like sit in exams

886
00:43:03,701 --> 00:43:05,821
Speaker 4: and add up my score and be like, oh, I'm

887
00:43:05,862 --> 00:43:08,622
Speaker 4: going to barely scrape past fifty in this, and I

888
00:43:08,741 --> 00:43:10,582
Speaker 4: just couldn't wait to get get rid of it. But

889
00:43:10,862 --> 00:43:13,022
Speaker 4: because I did a liberal arts degree, which I know

890
00:43:13,142 --> 00:43:16,421
Speaker 4: have increased in popularity in Australia in recent years too.

891
00:43:16,462 --> 00:43:18,062
Speaker 4: Where you have to do a bit of maths, you

892
00:43:18,102 --> 00:43:19,821
Speaker 4: have to do a bit of science in addition to

893
00:43:19,862 --> 00:43:22,582
Speaker 4: your humanities major. I had to do a maths class.

894
00:43:22,622 --> 00:43:25,821
Speaker 4: It was called the Magic of Numbers and it was

895
00:43:25,862 --> 00:43:29,502
Speaker 4: my favorite class spoiler alert. I came to see that

896
00:43:29,582 --> 00:43:33,942
Speaker 4: maths was like magical and beautiful and that prime numbers

897
00:43:33,982 --> 00:43:36,062
Speaker 4: are like the greatest mystery of all time.

898
00:43:36,661 --> 00:43:38,462
Speaker 3: And I just you see.

899
00:43:38,302 --> 00:43:40,502
Speaker 4: How my eyes light up about it, and I just

900
00:43:40,542 --> 00:43:43,542
Speaker 4: hated maths before. So I want other people to have

901
00:43:43,582 --> 00:43:44,382
Speaker 4: that experience, you know.

902
00:43:44,542 --> 00:43:47,781
Speaker 2: And it's funny this kind of Silicon Valley pushback on

903
00:43:48,102 --> 00:43:50,582
Speaker 2: sort of the intellectual elite, and they joke about, oh,

904
00:43:50,622 --> 00:43:53,462
Speaker 2: you're going to study African lesbian poetry, like you hear

905
00:43:53,582 --> 00:43:57,902
Speaker 2: kind of conservatives say that the story of Steve Jobs

906
00:43:58,221 --> 00:43:59,862
Speaker 2: being at university, there are all these stories about the

907
00:43:59,862 --> 00:44:01,301
Speaker 2: ones that dropped out and they didn't really need it.

908
00:44:01,382 --> 00:44:03,062
Speaker 3: Mark Zuckerberg, he's a famous one.

909
00:44:02,942 --> 00:44:05,062
Speaker 2: Yes, and they all dropped out right. But the story

910
00:44:05,102 --> 00:44:08,181
Speaker 2: of like how Apple got its font is that he

911
00:44:08,382 --> 00:44:13,542
Speaker 2: stumbled in two way lecture on like hieroglyphics or something

912
00:44:13,542 --> 00:44:16,142
Speaker 2: and learned something about about font and that to me

913
00:44:16,302 --> 00:44:19,861
Speaker 2: has been like my study of Greek and Roman myth,

914
00:44:19,902 --> 00:44:23,142
Speaker 2: which sounds so ridiculous, has informed both the books I've written,

915
00:44:23,261 --> 00:44:27,701
Speaker 2: and like the serendipity of being just surrounded by knowledge.

916
00:44:28,221 --> 00:44:30,781
Speaker 2: Knowledge builds on knowledge, and when you pull the kind

917
00:44:30,781 --> 00:44:34,181
Speaker 2: of plug out of intellectualism in a democracy, I think

918
00:44:34,181 --> 00:44:36,222
Speaker 2: you get to a really, really scary place.

919
00:44:37,062 --> 00:44:38,781
Speaker 1: Just before we go, I have a question. I was

920
00:44:38,822 --> 00:44:41,542
Speaker 1: sitting with my girlfriend Paula at dinner the other night,

921
00:44:41,622 --> 00:44:43,781
Speaker 1: and I don't remember how it came up, but we

922
00:44:43,862 --> 00:44:47,941
Speaker 1: realized that we know each other's mobile phone numbers, and

923
00:44:48,022 --> 00:44:51,902
Speaker 1: we know our husband's mobile phone numbers and our parents,

924
00:44:52,181 --> 00:44:55,421
Speaker 1: but that's it. We don't know our children's. We don't

925
00:44:55,422 --> 00:44:58,582
Speaker 1: know any other people's mobile phone numbers. Whose mobile phone

926
00:44:58,622 --> 00:44:59,142
Speaker 1: numbers do you know?

927
00:44:59,181 --> 00:44:59,742
Speaker 3: Off by heart?

928
00:45:00,022 --> 00:45:03,142
Speaker 2: My sisters and I can also tell you my home

929
00:45:03,221 --> 00:45:04,902
Speaker 2: phone number from twenty five years ago.

930
00:45:04,862 --> 00:45:05,462
Speaker 3: So can I.

931
00:45:05,462 --> 00:45:07,462
Speaker 1: I can tell tell you my home phone number for

932
00:45:07,502 --> 00:45:08,181
Speaker 1: fifty years ago.

933
00:45:08,302 --> 00:45:11,182
Speaker 4: I know my childhood lam line, my childhood best friend's

934
00:45:11,221 --> 00:45:13,462
Speaker 4: land line, and that's it. Have you seen there's a

935
00:45:13,462 --> 00:45:15,982
Speaker 4: great episode of Colin from Accounts, which is a show

936
00:45:15,982 --> 00:45:18,582
Speaker 4: that I absolutely love with that Rare Thing, which has

937
00:45:18,582 --> 00:45:21,342
Speaker 4: a better second season than it's first. In the second season,

938
00:45:21,342 --> 00:45:24,062
Speaker 4: there's an episode where a woman falls asleep on a

939
00:45:24,062 --> 00:45:27,622
Speaker 4: train and the train terminates at the end of its line,

940
00:45:27,701 --> 00:45:30,381
Speaker 4: and it's late at night and her phone is dead

941
00:45:30,502 --> 00:45:36,062
Speaker 4: or isn't working or something, and she literally has no she.

942
00:45:36,022 --> 00:45:36,781
Speaker 3: Doesn't have to call it.

943
00:45:36,862 --> 00:45:39,582
Speaker 4: She has no way to get home because she goes

944
00:45:39,622 --> 00:45:43,062
Speaker 4: to a phone or banishing amounts of them anyway, and

945
00:45:43,302 --> 00:45:48,781
Speaker 4: there's no one she can call. O, okay, right, oh

946
00:45:49,342 --> 00:45:55,821
Speaker 4: four one six three, come on over one sixth three,

947
00:45:58,302 --> 00:45:59,062
Speaker 4: Oh four.

948
00:45:58,862 --> 00:45:59,861
Speaker 6: One six three.

949
00:46:00,022 --> 00:46:00,701
Speaker 3: That fuck it.

950
00:46:03,102 --> 00:46:06,582
Speaker 6: My mother's number is oh four.

951
00:46:06,342 --> 00:46:11,221
Speaker 3: One six three, Yes, And I think about that all

952
00:46:11,261 --> 00:46:11,622
Speaker 3: the time.

953
00:46:11,701 --> 00:46:14,862
Speaker 4: I'm like, I really should teach my children my phone number,

954
00:46:14,982 --> 00:46:18,782
Speaker 4: but they don't have the constant children's phone numbers.

955
00:46:18,822 --> 00:46:20,941
Speaker 2: I would below and be like, do you have my mom?

956
00:46:21,022 --> 00:46:22,262
Speaker 3: I don't think they want.

957
00:46:22,062 --> 00:46:25,741
Speaker 1: You to do that, I know, so I think it's

958
00:46:25,741 --> 00:46:27,941
Speaker 1: actually a really fun if you're looking for a fun

959
00:46:27,982 --> 00:46:30,622
Speaker 1: bit of small talk, say to someone, what phone numbers

960
00:46:30,661 --> 00:46:33,142
Speaker 1: do you know? Off by heart? And for most of

961
00:46:33,221 --> 00:46:37,421
Speaker 1: us it's before the contacts function was available. Anyone that's

962
00:46:37,462 --> 00:46:40,142
Speaker 1: got a phone since then you don't know their number

963
00:46:40,342 --> 00:46:42,702
Speaker 1: like you know your own, and then you know Claire's

964
00:46:42,701 --> 00:46:44,702
Speaker 1: because when was the last time you dialed a mobile

965
00:46:44,741 --> 00:46:46,582
Speaker 1: phone number or any phone number by hand?

966
00:46:46,902 --> 00:46:47,382
Speaker 4: So true.

967
00:46:47,622 --> 00:46:49,142
Speaker 2: A big thank you to all of you the out

968
00:46:49,142 --> 00:46:51,901
Speaker 2: louders for listening to today's show and our fabulous team

969
00:46:51,942 --> 00:46:53,781
Speaker 2: for putting the show together. We will be back in

970
00:46:53,822 --> 00:46:54,862
Speaker 2: your ears tomorrow.

971
00:46:55,102 --> 00:46:57,582
Speaker 1: Something that I'm going to listen to is the subs

972
00:46:57,622 --> 00:47:01,221
Speaker 1: episode that you guys did about all the crazy things

973
00:47:01,221 --> 00:47:03,502
Speaker 1: that are going on in America at the moment. You

974
00:47:03,622 --> 00:47:07,102
Speaker 1: spoke about Alcatraz and what that is a bit more

975
00:47:07,102 --> 00:47:10,261
Speaker 1: about the Big Beautiful Bill and and what else did.

976
00:47:10,181 --> 00:47:12,942
Speaker 2: You the horror of the Texas Fly, like the camp.

977
00:47:13,221 --> 00:47:15,261
Speaker 1: There's been so much going on in the US, So

978
00:47:15,302 --> 00:47:18,261
Speaker 1: of course we made the most of having a US correspondent, Amelia.

979
00:47:17,942 --> 00:47:20,701
Speaker 2: Lister someone in the group that what makes Amelia a

980
00:47:20,781 --> 00:47:23,622
Speaker 2: US correspondent? I was like the fact that she's a

981
00:47:23,701 --> 00:47:25,701
Speaker 2: journalist with like one hundred years experience and used to

982
00:47:25,741 --> 00:47:27,221
Speaker 2: work for the New York I'm also that.

983
00:47:27,342 --> 00:47:29,221
Speaker 3: Literally an American for what it's worth.

984
00:47:29,622 --> 00:47:31,622
Speaker 1: There we go, and she sounds a bit American too.

985
00:47:31,781 --> 00:47:33,341
Speaker 1: That's all the qualifications I need.

986
00:47:33,462 --> 00:47:33,661
Speaker 4: Yeah.

987
00:47:33,741 --> 00:47:35,062
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the icing on the cake.

988
00:47:35,221 --> 00:47:35,542
Speaker 3: Anyway.

989
00:47:35,582 --> 00:47:37,341
Speaker 1: We'll put a link in our show notes to that

990
00:47:37,502 --> 00:47:39,382
Speaker 1: episode if you want to listen right now.

991
00:47:39,542 --> 00:47:40,542
Speaker 2: Bye bye.

992
00:47:41,622 --> 00:47:44,902
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Muma mia subscribers listening. If you

993
00:47:45,062 --> 00:47:47,382
Speaker 1: love the show and want to support us as well,

994
00:47:47,622 --> 00:47:50,142
Speaker 1: subscribing to MoMA Miya is the very best way to

995
00:47:50,181 --> 00:47:52,582
Speaker 1: do so. There is a link in the episode description.

996
00:47:53,661 --> 00:47:57,262
Speaker 1: The information discussed in this podcast is general in nature

997
00:47:57,542 --> 00:48:02,181
Speaker 1: and is provided for educational and informational purposes only. It

998
00:48:02,221 --> 00:48:06,582
Speaker 1: does not constitute medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment, and should

999
00:48:06,622 --> 00:48:09,902
Speaker 1: not be relied upon as such. Always seek the guidance

1000
00:48:09,942 --> 00:48:13,661
Speaker 1: of your doctor or qualified health professional with any questions

1001
00:48:13,701 --> 00:48:16,181
Speaker 1: you may have regarding your health or a medical condition.

1002
00:48:16,902 --> 00:48:20,982
Speaker 1: Never disregard professional advice or delay seeking it because of

1003
00:48:21,022 --> 00:48:22,781
Speaker 1: something you've heard in this podcast.