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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the

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Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and warders that this podcast is

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Speaker 1: recorded on Hello out louders, it's Hollywayen right here. I

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Speaker 1: know that you'll be celebrating the King's birthday, because honestly,

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Speaker 1: who isn't. But if you feel like listening to a

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Speaker 1: little bit about loud today, we're dropping you something a

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Speaker 1: bit special for the public holiday. We're dropping you one

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Speaker 1: of our subscriber only episodes as a little treat so

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Speaker 1: you can get a taste of what goes on for subscribers.

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Speaker 1: This episode has got listener dilemmas in it, and I

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Speaker 1: promise you one in particular is so helpful. It's going

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Speaker 1: to change your group dynamic. Anytime you're out for dinner

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Speaker 1: and somebody's like, I'll drop you that money, or do

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Speaker 1: I have to pay for your cocktail? Jesse has great

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Speaker 1: masterclass in getting what's owed to you without dying of embarrassment.

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Speaker 1: And then we hear from a woman named Karen who's

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Speaker 1: wondering if she should actually change her name. On our

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Speaker 1: subscriber episodes, we cover all kinds of conversations from dilemmas

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Speaker 1: to dissections of TV shows, to the things we think

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Speaker 1: are a little bit too private to have on the

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Speaker 1: main show. So if you enjoyed this peak behind the curtain,

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Speaker 1: there's plenty more where that came from. And there's a

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Speaker 1: link in our show notes for you to become a

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Speaker 1: subscriber if you choose enjoy. Hello, out Louders, Jesse and

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Speaker 1: I are playing agony ants today. There needs to be

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Speaker 1: a better term for that. I called you for agony ant.

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Speaker 1: I bet Dolly Alderton doesn't call herself an agony ann,

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Speaker 1: does she?

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Speaker 2: We're wise witches or something.

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Speaker 1: We're wise witches. Dear Holly and Jesse. We're calling this

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Speaker 1: and out Louders have got some good dilemmas for us.

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Speaker 1: Here we go. Hi, my name is Karen. Obviously everyone

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Speaker 1: thinks they know me. My name was chosen by my

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Speaker 1: American dad with love and care and over all other

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Speaker 1: baby names my mum wanted. He has now passed and

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Speaker 1: it is something I will always have that he gifted

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Speaker 1: to me. But we went bowling as a family the

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Speaker 1: other day and I entered my name on the screen

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Speaker 1: above the bowling lanes and the family next door with

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Speaker 1: tweens could not stop laughing. Oh. At my school, I'm

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Speaker 1: a primary school teacher. We had a fundraising wig day

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Speaker 1: and a family sent their child in a helmet esque

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Speaker 1: style wig. And when I remarked on such a fabulous wig,

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Speaker 1: the seven year old said she was a Karen due

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Speaker 1: to her behavior and haircut. Students at my school loudly

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Speaker 1: denounce their friends as Karen's a friend who may not

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Speaker 1: be my friend anymore. Asked if I was ashamed or

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Speaker 1: embarrassed about my name now that it's used as an insult,

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Speaker 1: and every time I need to ask for a help

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Speaker 1: or a service now, I'm reluctant to speak up and

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Speaker 1: say my name. I'm a strong, independent midwoman, but as

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Speaker 1: soon as I give my name, I'm judged and probably

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Speaker 1: laughed at behind my back. I also don't think it's

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Speaker 1: my responsibility to change the world's view by allowing the

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Speaker 1: public to interact with a real life Karen rather than

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Speaker 1: the internet meme, while also being incredibly aware of everything

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Speaker 1: I say. Help, do I need to change my name

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Speaker 1: from a real life Karen Jesse.

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Speaker 2: Karen, I feel for you, because you know we've spoke

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Speaker 2: about this before. The Karen meme is very thinly veiled

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Speaker 2: misogyny and agism. I absolutely hate it. I reckon that

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Speaker 2: we are well passed Pete Karen. I think we're on

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Speaker 2: the way out. Having someone dress up as it, having

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Speaker 2: people laugh at you. I mean, tweens are idiots. We

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Speaker 2: all know that.

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Speaker 1: I have to tell you the report from Tween and

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Speaker 1: teen World. It is so part of their lexicon, like

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Speaker 1: they'll just automatically say to me and then mom, there

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Speaker 1: was a Karen at the skatepark and she said, oh, Mom,

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Speaker 1: there was a Karen at the shop. Like they literally

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Speaker 1: use it that liberally.

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Speaker 2: I hate it. I hate it. I really want it

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Speaker 2: to just go away. And names go in and out

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Speaker 2: of fashion all the time, and so my number one

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Speaker 2: piece of advice would be, don't care and Karen's a

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Speaker 2: great name and go with it. And most people aren't

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Speaker 2: thinking that. Even if you're getting those comments, if you're

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Speaker 2: going into a shop and you're like, I really don't

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Speaker 2: want to say my name and it's making you uncomfortable,

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Speaker 2: you don't have to give people your real name. I

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Speaker 2: know lots of people who have a fake name they

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Speaker 2: give out all the time because they can't be bothered.

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Speaker 2: So you're allowed to do that, or like give yourself

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Speaker 2: a shortened name, like whether it's Kaz or something, but

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Speaker 2: you shouldn't have to. I think you should be able

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Speaker 2: to own that name. And I'm just sorry that our

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Speaker 2: culture has found a new way to put down women

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Speaker 2: of a certain age. That's really annoying.

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Speaker 1: I agree. And also this dilemma has made me feel

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Speaker 1: very bad because one of my really good friends is

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Speaker 1: called Karen. She is also a woman of our age.

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Speaker 1: It's a very gen x name, right, I can't remember

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Speaker 1: the last time someone had a baby and said to me,

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Speaker 1: she's called Karen, Like it's just not a thing. But

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Speaker 1: then that's also true of Sandra and Denise and all

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Speaker 1: kinds of other names that are very common among a

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Speaker 1: certain age, Sally and like you just don't hear them anymore.

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Speaker 1: So one of my really good mates is called Karen,

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Speaker 1: and she got really upset with me because we talked

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Speaker 1: about Karen's on the show a few years ago, probably,

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Speaker 1: and she was like, I hate that whole thing so much,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's ruining my life. I feel like it's

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Speaker 1: really discriminatory. And I kind of dismissed her a little

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Speaker 1: bit and told her to calm down, which is something

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Speaker 1: that you should never say to a woman of our

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Speaker 1: age anyway. It's a real thing, because I do hear

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Speaker 1: it around all the time, and I am probably guilty

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Speaker 1: of using it in a derogatory way myself at times.

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Speaker 1: Or it's just become a word for someone who's complaining,

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Speaker 1: and you'll hear people say, don't be a Karen. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to be a Karen. I don't think you

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Speaker 1: should change your name. I think Jesse's advice is correct

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Speaker 1: that if you're in one of those situations that makes

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Speaker 1: you uncomfortable, just use a nickname. Personally, my Karen is Kaza.

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Speaker 1: We just generally call a Kaza around the place. But

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Speaker 1: I think it's really unfortunate. I think you just got

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Speaker 1: a duck and wait for the wave to pass. But

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Speaker 1: maybe next time someone makes a dig at it, you

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Speaker 1: could shame them. You could ask them why they're being

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Speaker 1: so derogatory and bigoted. Our next one or Jesse, you'll

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Speaker 1: have good advice about this. I think it's about a

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Speaker 1: money pushover, Holly and Jesse. I am a complete money

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Speaker 1: pushover and I am over it. I constantly find myself

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Speaker 1: being out of pocket or forgotten to be paid back

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Speaker 1: where there is group occasions or gift purchasing. I am

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Speaker 1: a generous person by nature, and I love to spoil

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Speaker 1: the people I love when it calls for it. I

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Speaker 1: am generous with my time always, and rather than selling

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Speaker 1: stuff we no longer need, I give it away. If

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Speaker 1: friends are having a rough patch, I will drop them dinner, coffee, food, etc.

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Speaker 1: I never keep tabs on drinks at the pub or

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Speaker 1: coffee shouted. I have the everything comes out in the

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Speaker 1: wash mentality when it comes to the day today. What

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Speaker 1: I don't know how to approach and currently have no

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Speaker 1: tact for, is asking people for their owed contribution to

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Speaker 1: a gift they've committed to, or to pay back an

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Speaker 1: iou if I've lent the money. We're usually talking in

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Speaker 1: the like fifty to one hundred dollars bracket with group gifting,

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Speaker 1: which seems to be endless. I also struggle with asking

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Speaker 1: people to pay me what I'm worth. In my business,

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Speaker 1: I often find myself doing favors and jobs for people

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Speaker 1: and severely undercharging. How do I grow a pair and

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Speaker 1: stop giving away my time and services for basically nothing.

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Speaker 1: How can I non awkwardly ask someone who owes me

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Speaker 1: money to pay it back without feeling like the stingy

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Speaker 1: one thank you in advance for the wise advice. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's hope Jesse's got some wise advice.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I have so much advice because I relate with

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Speaker 2: this so much. Firstly, when it comes to the gift,

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Speaker 2: when it comes to the bill, when it comes to

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Speaker 2: being the person who covers it and people pay you back,

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Speaker 2: you know what, you're going to retire from that for

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Speaker 2: a little while you've done your piece. I think that

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Speaker 2: you can go. I actually find it really stressful to

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Speaker 2: ask people for money and you don't have to put

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Speaker 2: your hand up. So if the bill is coming round

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Speaker 2: and they go you can't split it whatever, let someone

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Speaker 2: else cover it. You know that you'll pay them back.

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Speaker 2: That's fine. Secondly, apps apps are great for this. I've

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Speaker 2: talked about having split Wise on my phone. This is

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Speaker 2: something that we use for holidays all the time.

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Speaker 1: How to split wise work Jesse.

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Speaker 2: Split Wise is an app where let's say we went

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Speaker 2: away recently with my family to wa and someone says,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go get some groceries and they spend

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Speaker 2: sixty bucks on groceries. That goes straight into the app

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Speaker 2: and it divides it among everyone. Who's there. And then

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Speaker 2: at the end. Basically, what split Wide shows you is

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Speaker 2: that things don't come out in the wash because by

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Speaker 2: the end of the holiday someone owes someone a bucks,

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Speaker 2: which is a significant amount of money, and you don't

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Speaker 2: have to defend that you're generous or that whatever, like

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Speaker 2: the average person would rather than know that they've settled

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Speaker 2: a debt. I think the other thing is have a

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Speaker 2: phrase and I've learnt this from Maya. Just have a

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Speaker 2: phrase that you use to say, hey, can you pay

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Speaker 2: me back or whatever. The other night I went out

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Speaker 2: with a few friends and someone got the bill and

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Speaker 2: I would have paid her back immediately, but I didn't

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Speaker 2: have a detail. So I had on my list the

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Speaker 2: next day, I'm going to pay it back. And first

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Speaker 2: thing in the morning I got a message going dinner

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Speaker 2: was ninety three dollars. That's blah blah eah, here are

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Speaker 2: my details. Nothing rude about that. I didn't bristle, I

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Speaker 2: didn't anything. I just transferred it immediately and went thanks

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Speaker 2: heaps for grabbing that. And in terms of the business, again,

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Speaker 2: I relate so much with that. I grew up with

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Speaker 2: my dad, who was a deputy principal tutoring. He would

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Speaker 2: tutor on the side, and I would watch him not

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Speaker 2: get paid. A deputy principal who has four kids, who

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Speaker 2: goes out on a Tuesday night and tutors and someone

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Speaker 2: doesn't bother to give him the forty dollars an hour

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Speaker 2: or whatever it was. What that does to your own

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Speaker 2: sense of self and self worth is so detrimental that

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Speaker 2: you need to have a set cost, like even forty

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Speaker 2: dollars for tutoring. Really sit down, work out what it's worth,

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Speaker 2: what other people who are offering the same product are charging.

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Speaker 2: Even have an invoice system, and you can resend it

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Speaker 2: and resend it and resend it because the shame and

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Speaker 2: embarrassment should be on them for not paying you yet,

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Speaker 2: Like that's bad form. I like the term having, Like

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Speaker 2: you've got a rate, so you're not asking someone for money.

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Speaker 2: You've just got a rate. An hour of your time

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Speaker 2: is worth one hundred bucks or whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: So do you because sometimes I'm sure, Jesse, you get

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Speaker 1: asked to do things for free. Yep, can you come

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Speaker 1: and interview this person at this thing, or can you

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Speaker 1: host this thing, or can you come and do this whatever? Right,

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Speaker 1: like because you know you're famous and fabulous so much obviously,

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Speaker 1: do you have a way of asking in a non

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Speaker 1: awkward way like are you paying me? And how much

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Speaker 1: you're paying me?

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Speaker 2: Yes? I do now. I will often say does this

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Speaker 2: include payment? Or someone will often say what is your rate?

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Speaker 2: I had to put together a document where I wrote

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Speaker 2: it down so that I could copy and paste, and

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Speaker 2: I would go how much is this worth? How much

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Speaker 2: is that worth? I needed like a rate card because

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Speaker 2: I just went on days where I'm having particularly low

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Speaker 2: self worth, I'll jump in and go, oh, just pay

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Speaker 2: me twenty dollars or whatever, and that's not sustainable. But

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Speaker 2: I found that having language like that protected me. And

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Speaker 2: this is you know, I'm not a big AI person,

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Speaker 2: but this is where chat GPT is really helpful. The

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Speaker 2: email that you don't want to write, the you know,

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Speaker 2: follow up about payment. Chat GPT will tell you what

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Speaker 2: to say, and then it's not even you. It's like

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Speaker 2: you've got your own pa or your own agent.

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Speaker 1: I'm quickly just going to defend the flaky people, because

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Speaker 1: I often am one. It'll always be the nicole who's

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Speaker 1: the person who's collecting all the money for the holiday

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Speaker 1: dinner whatever, and hats off to them, right because My

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Speaker 1: thing is if I don't do it right now, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to forget.

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Speaker 2: So that's the rule. You must do it outside the restaurant.

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Speaker 1: That's the rule. So ideally do it at the table

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Speaker 1: or outside the restaurant, because otherwise am either going to

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Speaker 1: forget or you know, it'll just fall off my list

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Speaker 1: for a while. It doesn't mean that I'm a terrible person,

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Speaker 1: although kind of does because obviously, you know, when you

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Speaker 1: talk about, oh I forgot, there's obviously a hierarchy of

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Speaker 1: things you forget. But maybe it does mean I'm a

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Speaker 1: terrible person. And the thing is is that being the

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Speaker 1: person who always pays the bill, Like there have been

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Speaker 1: plenty of times in my life where I've been absolutely

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Speaker 1: like I can't pay that, Like it's four hundred dollars

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Speaker 1: or something, and today's not the day that four hundred

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Speaker 1: dollars can go out of my bank account. So that's

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Speaker 1: the thing that's interesting about our cashless world is that

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Speaker 1: someone has to pay that. Someone has to have four

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Speaker 1: hundred dollars in their bank account that isn't immediately needed

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Speaker 1: to cover something else, you know what I mean, Like

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Speaker 1: it's stressful.

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Speaker 2: I've had that exact situation and what I've done is

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Speaker 2: I've gone, I'm going to pay you on the twentieth,

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Speaker 2: and then I put a note in my diary where

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Speaker 2: I'm like, today is the day that you pay the thing,

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Speaker 2: because I've got money coming into my account.

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Speaker 1: But I mean more like, if you're the one at

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Speaker 1: the table who has to pay on the day, you know,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, I've had that thing where you're like, shit,

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Speaker 1: I can't be the one who pays and everyone pays

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Speaker 1: me because I don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't actually have yes exactly right or.

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Speaker 1: I need that for whatever. So it creates a lot

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Speaker 1: of anxiety. So my advice to you out loud, all

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Speaker 1: of Jesse's are very smart. Lean on the apps. Also,

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Speaker 1: just don't be the person who does all the things.

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Speaker 1: And this is really hard for Nicole's because my mate

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Speaker 1: Penny is my Nicole. Everybody knows that when we'd go

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Speaker 1: to Byron, she pays for everything. And then she sends

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Speaker 1: us at me and Karen out emails going you pay this,

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Speaker 1: you pay that, blah blah blah. Hats off to her

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Speaker 1: because that's a lot of work.

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Speaker 2: It is work, it's maths.

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Speaker 1: But if she said one year or just said for

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Speaker 1: a while, like I'm not going to do that, Like

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't be upset, I would be Yeah, probably time

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Speaker 1: for one of us lazy asses to step up and

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Speaker 1: try and get out Nicole pants on. So I think

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Speaker 1: that you're right, don't put your hand up to be

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Speaker 1: that person. But the problem with that is that sometimes

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Speaker 1: that means the gifts don't get got, you know, and

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Speaker 1: their dinner doesn't get organized, because often it's the one

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Speaker 1: who organizes it is also the one who's going to

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Speaker 1: end up being the payer. And like it's tough. I

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Speaker 1: wonder if Nicole should stop charging a tax.

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Speaker 2: I know, you know what I mean, because it's time,

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Speaker 2: and I also think it is it's not rude to

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Speaker 2: say I always say to restaurant. I know it's knowing

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Speaker 2: for restaurants. But it is a lot easier for everyone

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Speaker 2: if we can just split at the table, and I'll go, oh,

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Speaker 2: can we just split? And sometimes there's like an awkward

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Speaker 2: beat or whatever, and then you've got to go, oh,

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Speaker 2: are we doing it evenly? Or someone got a cocktail

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Speaker 2: and someone didn't whatever, you sort all of that out,

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Speaker 2: But it's a lot easier if everyone just does their bit.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any wise words? Jesse for and I

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Speaker 1: may have been this person. Yep, when they go, oh my,

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Speaker 1: you know that fifty dollars you owe me for dinner

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Speaker 1: the other night, you know, do you mind? And you're

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Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, yeah, and then they don't. How do

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Speaker 1: we do? How do we chase that this was me?

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Speaker 2: Recently? I said I was going to and I'm going

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Speaker 2: to read out the message I got because I thought

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Speaker 2: it was the perfect response. And I had said I

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Speaker 2: was going to pay someone and I think I'd told

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Speaker 2: Luca to do it, and they completely forgot. And the

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Speaker 2: message was hope, you're well, just wondering if you got

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Speaker 2: a chance to transfer the money from last week. No

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Speaker 2: rush at all. I just thought I would check because

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Speaker 2: nothing ha come through on my end. So what that

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Speaker 2: sounded like was that they were saying, oh, no, has

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Speaker 2: there been an issue with the technology.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's passag, but it's definitely.

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Speaker 2: Works exactly what it says is like, I would hate

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Speaker 2: to think that you've transferred to the wrong account, so

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Speaker 2: I'm just checking that it's And I was so grateful

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Speaker 2: the idea that this person was walking through the world

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Speaker 2: thinking that I had not paid them the money. They

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Speaker 2: were like, I just said, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry,

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Speaker 2: thank you, thank you, thank you for following up. I

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Speaker 2: am paying right now, which I did. But I think

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Speaker 2: saying that was like, oh, the money hasn't hit my

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Speaker 2: account yet, I'm just checking that everything. Love that, love that,

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Speaker 2: or even just going, hey, just making sure you've got

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Speaker 2: the right account details, rescending.

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Speaker 1: That's really good. Sometimes a bit of passag is fine.

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Speaker 1: You don't need to like, I'm sure that there are

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Speaker 1: people who'd be like, don't dress it up, just say

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Speaker 1: what you need. I need that fifty dollars. But no,

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Speaker 1: I think passag is good because it gives everyone the

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Speaker 1: benefit of the.

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Speaker 2: Doubt and resend the details because I have always lost

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Speaker 2: them in some group chat. Eh,