1 00:00:20,610 --> 00:00:22,500 Speaker 1: I don't want to freak you out, Betty, but I've 2 00:00:22,500 --> 00:00:24,940 Speaker 1: been doing this show for how long lives five years, 3 00:00:24,950 --> 00:00:25,980 Speaker 1: seven years? 4 00:00:26,820 --> 00:00:29,900 Speaker 1: And for the last few years, when people have said, 5 00:00:29,900 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: Who's your dream guest? I've said you 6 00:00:33,070 --> 00:00:34,230 Speaker 2: that's funny. 7 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:38,310 Speaker 1: And my team are like, Who? Yeah, and I'm like, 8 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:39,690 Speaker 1: You don't understand. 9 00:00:40,770 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: I mean, a Freedman, you're listening to No philtre. And 10 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,340 Speaker 1: that statement is not a word of a lie. For 11 00:00:46,340 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: the past few years, Betty Klimenko has been my dream 12 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,970 Speaker 1: guest on this podcast I've been asking and I've been asking, 13 00:00:54,490 --> 00:00:58,310 Speaker 1: and if you like my team, don't understand who Betty 14 00:00:58,310 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: is or why I'm so keen to interview her, let 15 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:03,130 Speaker 1: me tell you, 16 00:01:03,700 --> 00:01:06,290 Speaker 1: once upon a time, there was a Holocaust survivor by 17 00:01:06,290 --> 00:01:09,930 Speaker 1: the name of John Saunders. He settled in Sydney after 18 00:01:09,930 --> 00:01:13,110 Speaker 1: the war with his wife, Dita, who had also been 19 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,810 Speaker 1: a Holocaust survivor, and ETA had a chronic illness that 20 00:01:16,810 --> 00:01:21,330 Speaker 1: meant she couldn't have kids. So in 1959 they went 21 00:01:21,330 --> 00:01:25,990 Speaker 1: to an orphanage in Sydney, and they walked past 20 babies, 22 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: and they picked the one that was laughing. My 23 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,290 Speaker 2: father just one second, and he just walked up and 24 00:01:31,290 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 2: down the rows of the Children, 25 00:01:33,030 --> 00:01:35,170 Speaker 2: and I was in the last Kat at the very 26 00:01:35,170 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: back, 27 00:01:36,010 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 2: and I was laughing. 28 00:01:37,290 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: But what? 29 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 2: He didn't know that the laughing was part of withdrawal. 30 00:01:41,250 --> 00:01:44,170 Speaker 1: They called her Betty. Jon and Etta would go on 31 00:01:44,170 --> 00:01:47,850 Speaker 1: to adopt another child a few years later, a little boy, 32 00:01:47,860 --> 00:01:51,210 Speaker 1: but by that stage, their lives were very different. 33 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,940 Speaker 1: John's career in Australia had taken off, and in 1960 34 00:01:55,950 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: alongside Frank Lowy, he formed the Westfield Group. You may 35 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,100 Speaker 1: have heard of it. John and Frank would go on 36 00:02:03,100 --> 00:02:07,220 Speaker 1: to open over 100 shopping centres across the world, and 37 00:02:07,220 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: they would become billionaires 38 00:02:08,690 --> 00:02:10,900 Speaker 2: in the morning. I'd see him for two minutes, and 39 00:02:10,900 --> 00:02:11,710 Speaker 2: then he would be gone. 40 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,890 Speaker 1: So John worked very hard. He got very rich, and 41 00:02:14,890 --> 00:02:19,110 Speaker 1: when his wife died, he remarried and had another baby, 42 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: his third. 43 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:23,570 Speaker 1: So it's easy to assume that at this stage, maybe 44 00:02:23,580 --> 00:02:27,500 Speaker 1: Betty might be forgotten for the new family. But that's 45 00:02:27,500 --> 00:02:31,700 Speaker 1: not the case at all, because Betty Saunders Klimenko would 46 00:02:31,700 --> 00:02:34,770 Speaker 1: go on to have one of the most fascinating lives 47 00:02:34,780 --> 00:02:36,380 Speaker 1: you can ever imagine. 48 00:02:37,050 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: Which is why today I finally convinced her to come 49 00:02:40,810 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: on no philtre. 50 00:02:43,630 --> 00:02:48,460 Speaker 1: Most people don't know the circumstances under which they were conceived. 51 00:02:48,470 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: But you do. 52 00:02:49,610 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. The first person I met that was 53 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,290 Speaker 2: biologically related to me was a cousin. And he was 54 00:02:55,290 --> 00:02:57,730 Speaker 2: the person who was telling me your mother was the 55 00:02:57,730 --> 00:03:01,590 Speaker 2: black sheep of the family. But she had been Miss 56 00:03:01,590 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: Western Australia or something. I don't know what she was. And, 57 00:03:04,610 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 2: uh 58 00:03:05,210 --> 00:03:09,550 Speaker 2: then she went. She beauty queen did something that she 59 00:03:09,550 --> 00:03:13,790 Speaker 2: went down. She was born in Lithuania, 60 00:03:14,370 --> 00:03:17,570 Speaker 2: but her family were Russian. They had gone after the revolution, 61 00:03:17,570 --> 00:03:20,780 Speaker 2: they'd gone to Lithuania. Then they came to Australia and 62 00:03:20,780 --> 00:03:24,310 Speaker 2: her whole life was changed. Everything was turned around. And unfortunately, 63 00:03:24,310 --> 00:03:29,330 Speaker 2: she got into drugs. She was just on six ft. Apparently, 64 00:03:29,330 --> 00:03:32,490 Speaker 2: my biological father was about six ft four. I've met 65 00:03:32,490 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: two of my biological sisters and they're tall. They're very tall, 66 00:03:37,420 --> 00:03:40,130 Speaker 2: but with me, she was on heavy drugs. So I 67 00:03:40,130 --> 00:03:43,130 Speaker 2: ended up with tinted from elbow down and knee down. 68 00:03:43,130 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: So from my need to the my elbow, I'm a big, 69 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,500 Speaker 2: tall woman from knee down and elbow down. I'm not. 70 00:03:49,510 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: So 71 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,380 Speaker 1: she was on heroin or something when she was 72 00:03:52,380 --> 00:03:57,990 Speaker 2: pregnant and she had been arrested for solicitation or whatever 73 00:03:57,990 --> 00:04:00,590 Speaker 2: it was, and she was put into the jail at 74 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,210 Speaker 2: King's Cross. She and a policeman decided that was a 75 00:04:04,210 --> 00:04:05,710 Speaker 2: very good place to conceive a child. 76 00:04:06,330 --> 00:04:10,460 Speaker 1: I see. And you were born nine months later. 77 00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:13,260 Speaker 2: Yeah, nine months later, she decided she'd keep me. She'd 78 00:04:13,260 --> 00:04:17,100 Speaker 2: given three away already to the foster system, one for adoption, 79 00:04:17,180 --> 00:04:19,180 Speaker 2: and she kept me for seven weeks. 80 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,660 Speaker 2: And I think she was trying to change the way 81 00:04:23,660 --> 00:04:26,490 Speaker 2: of life like she had me baptised in a Catholic 82 00:04:26,490 --> 00:04:29,940 Speaker 2: church or whatever you call it. After seven weeks, she said, 83 00:04:29,940 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 2: I can't do this anymore. And they drove from Queen 84 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: being up to Sydney and left me at the women's hospital. 85 00:04:36,830 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: So you would have been probably born addicted to drugs, 86 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: drug dependent 87 00:04:41,370 --> 00:04:42,350 Speaker 2: I was. And 88 00:04:43,220 --> 00:04:46,700 Speaker 2: that actually got my father to pick me because back 89 00:04:46,700 --> 00:04:49,700 Speaker 2: then you went into a room. There was like 20 90 00:04:49,700 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 2: kids in there and cots, and you said you picked 91 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,130 Speaker 2: a child and said, This is the child I want 92 00:04:54,140 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: because there were orphanages back then, 93 00:04:55,930 --> 00:04:57,290 Speaker 2: exactly. And 94 00:04:57,860 --> 00:05:00,140 Speaker 2: he walked in the room and they picked a child 95 00:05:00,140 --> 00:05:03,860 Speaker 2: from a male and he was dark and dark eyes 96 00:05:03,860 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 2: look more on the Mediterranean European side than me. 97 00:05:06,730 --> 00:05:10,170 Speaker 1: Your father and your mother wanted a child that looked 98 00:05:10,170 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: like them. They couldn't have Children. That's right. And so 99 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,020 Speaker 1: they were like, Well, take this little boy. Well, 100 00:05:15,020 --> 00:05:19,350 Speaker 2: the actual hospital picked the child and they walked in 101 00:05:19,350 --> 00:05:22,910 Speaker 2: and looked at the child and my father just one second. 102 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:24,730 Speaker 2: And he just walked up and down the rows of 103 00:05:24,730 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 2: the Children. 104 00:05:25,630 --> 00:05:28,500 Speaker 2: And I was in the last caught at the very back, 105 00:05:28,510 --> 00:05:31,900 Speaker 2: and I was laughing. But what? He didn't know that 106 00:05:31,900 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: the laughing was part of withdrawal, 107 00:05:34,570 --> 00:05:35,740 Speaker 1: really. 108 00:05:35,750 --> 00:05:38,330 Speaker 2: And he said, Oh, this one's got a sense of humour. 109 00:05:38,330 --> 00:05:39,290 Speaker 2: I'll take this one 110 00:05:39,310 --> 00:05:41,110 Speaker 1: was just that serendipitous. 111 00:05:41,110 --> 00:05:44,470 Speaker 2: Yes, it was. And I think it was. I'm a 112 00:05:44,470 --> 00:05:46,910 Speaker 2: big believer in balance, and I think that I was 113 00:05:46,910 --> 00:05:50,030 Speaker 2: meant to be with him, and that's how it happened. 114 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,190 Speaker 1: He was a Holocaust survivor. Was your mother also a 115 00:05:53,190 --> 00:05:54,260 Speaker 1: Holocaust survivor? 116 00:05:54,270 --> 00:05:56,660 Speaker 2: Yes, but she didn't go to the camp. She was 117 00:05:56,670 --> 00:06:00,830 Speaker 2: in a big sewerage pipe for the most of the war, 118 00:06:00,830 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 2: with her family and some of the same people from 119 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 2: her village. 120 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,260 Speaker 2: She just before the war, She had a 121 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,070 Speaker 2: she played ice hockey and she had a hip injury. 122 00:06:10,070 --> 00:06:13,020 Speaker 2: But they never got solved because the war started. And 123 00:06:13,020 --> 00:06:15,470 Speaker 2: so she was in this damn pipe for three or 124 00:06:15,470 --> 00:06:21,650 Speaker 2: four years, and it developed into rows like bowel cancer. 125 00:06:21,660 --> 00:06:24,390 Speaker 1: She wasn't able to have Children, so they came to Australia. 126 00:06:24,390 --> 00:06:25,890 Speaker 1: Did they meet after the war? 127 00:06:25,890 --> 00:06:29,550 Speaker 2: They were related, and they knew each other from, 128 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:30,770 Speaker 2: you know, 129 00:06:30,780 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: they were cousins. Yeah, 130 00:06:32,490 --> 00:06:36,070 Speaker 2: which is funny because my sister looks like my mother. 131 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:37,210 Speaker 2: I know. It's very funny. 132 00:06:37,210 --> 00:06:40,860 Speaker 1: Even though that was then a no biological connection. Well, 133 00:06:40,870 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: she does have a biological connection 134 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,690 Speaker 2: because my father and my mother were cousins. Oh, 135 00:06:47,700 --> 00:06:48,830 Speaker 1: So my sister 136 00:06:48,830 --> 00:06:51,850 Speaker 2: is my sister and my second cousin. 137 00:06:51,860 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: Okay, we need a diagram. We need a diagram. 138 00:06:55,330 --> 00:06:58,340 Speaker 2: My parents were first cousins. After the war, 139 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 2: it was decimated. You know, a lot of first cousins 140 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,170 Speaker 2: married because they were the only people that they knew 141 00:07:05,170 --> 00:07:08,730 Speaker 2: it was family was. So they got married, They couldn't 142 00:07:08,730 --> 00:07:12,550 Speaker 2: have Children. She wasn't 100% well. But the fact that 143 00:07:12,550 --> 00:07:15,510 Speaker 2: now that when my father had my sister with another woman. 144 00:07:16,150 --> 00:07:19,780 Speaker 2: This child looks like my mother. That's 145 00:07:19,780 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: extraordinary. It's a very specific thing being raised as a 146 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: child of Holocaust survivors. A lot of people wouldn't understand that. 147 00:07:28,890 --> 00:07:32,740 Speaker 1: They say that the trauma can actually, you know, can 148 00:07:32,740 --> 00:07:34,790 Speaker 1: be passed on through DNA, which is not the case 149 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: for you because you were adopted. But 150 00:07:36,850 --> 00:07:38,220 Speaker 2: what 151 00:07:38,220 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: did he tell you about his time in the concentration 152 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:41,460 Speaker 2: camp? 153 00:07:42,590 --> 00:07:45,380 Speaker 2: In the beginning of my life? Not much. 154 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,020 Speaker 2: But after I married my second husband and then he 155 00:07:49,020 --> 00:07:52,450 Speaker 2: threw me out of the family and the whole spiel. 156 00:07:52,450 --> 00:07:54,770 Speaker 2: And then I came back into the family. He built 157 00:07:54,770 --> 00:07:56,110 Speaker 2: the Sydney Jewish Museum, 158 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,850 Speaker 2: and in that time that he built, it was when 159 00:07:59,850 --> 00:08:02,380 Speaker 2: he finally opened up to me and we sat and 160 00:08:02,380 --> 00:08:05,980 Speaker 2: we went through all the photos and everything that everyone 161 00:08:05,980 --> 00:08:07,350 Speaker 2: had handed in. 162 00:08:07,890 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 2: And so we went to Europe. We went to visit 163 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,110 Speaker 2: this old anti like she was, I don't know, 125 164 00:08:15,110 --> 00:08:16,550 Speaker 2: or something. And 165 00:08:17,090 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 2: she gave him a small little candleholder and that she 166 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,460 Speaker 2: had made in the camp and a piece of barbed wire. 167 00:08:25,470 --> 00:08:29,230 Speaker 2: It's actually in the museum. My father being my father 168 00:08:29,230 --> 00:08:32,620 Speaker 2: and really not understanding the rules and regulations and put 169 00:08:32,620 --> 00:08:35,460 Speaker 2: it in your suitcase will take it home. It was rusty. 170 00:08:35,470 --> 00:08:37,310 Speaker 2: It was old. I said, I can't take that in 171 00:08:37,310 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 2: my suitcase. He said, Wrap it up in your pyjamas. 172 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,390 Speaker 2: No one will know and I did, and I brought 173 00:08:41,390 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 2: it back. But 174 00:08:42,860 --> 00:08:43,260 Speaker 2: it 175 00:08:43,260 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: was from the camp. 176 00:08:44,130 --> 00:08:46,910 Speaker 2: It was from the camp and he started to open 177 00:08:46,910 --> 00:08:49,870 Speaker 2: up about stories and that he was the pizza, which 178 00:08:49,870 --> 00:08:52,460 Speaker 2: is like the shoeshine boy of the commandant. But being 179 00:08:52,460 --> 00:08:55,340 Speaker 2: that he could get potato peels and he could sneak 180 00:08:55,340 --> 00:08:56,870 Speaker 2: in the kitchen and get things And he was telling 181 00:08:56,870 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 2: me stories about 182 00:08:57,690 --> 00:08:59,110 Speaker 1: how old was he when he was in the 183 00:08:59,110 --> 00:09:02,020 Speaker 2: camp? Well, he actually got thrown in at 18 for 184 00:09:02,030 --> 00:09:03,610 Speaker 2: listening to the BBC. 185 00:09:04,290 --> 00:09:06,850 Speaker 2: They caught him listening to the BBC, and he was 186 00:09:06,850 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: put in as a political prisoner. So he was in 187 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,500 Speaker 2: their way before they actually called it a concentration camp, 188 00:09:14,230 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 2: and he did escape once. But he got to a 189 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,950 Speaker 2: river and like all good religious Jews, he had never 190 00:09:20,950 --> 00:09:21,850 Speaker 2: been taught to swim. 191 00:09:22,770 --> 00:09:24,210 Speaker 2: And there was no way for him to get over there. 192 00:09:24,210 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 2: So I had to get back into the camp before 193 00:09:26,850 --> 00:09:27,420 Speaker 2: before 194 00:09:27,420 --> 00:09:28,490 Speaker 1: they had to break 195 00:09:28,490 --> 00:09:31,030 Speaker 2: in because he knew that he'd be 196 00:09:31,030 --> 00:09:31,620 Speaker 1: shot. 197 00:09:32,930 --> 00:09:34,710 Speaker 1: When did you find out you're adopted? 198 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: I was 10. 199 00:09:37,330 --> 00:09:38,850 Speaker 2: I was 10 years old 200 00:09:39,450 --> 00:09:42,450 Speaker 2: and another 10 year old told me. 201 00:09:43,260 --> 00:09:46,370 Speaker 1: Was someone in your family, Wasn't it? Wasn't a relation? 202 00:09:46,380 --> 00:09:49,530 Speaker 2: No. We were at the lowest place and I was downstairs, 203 00:09:49,530 --> 00:09:50,660 Speaker 1: was a family friend, 204 00:09:50,670 --> 00:09:54,620 Speaker 2: family friend. And we had a fight with Peter. We 205 00:09:54,620 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 2: spent a lot of time together, had a fight with Peter, 206 00:09:57,090 --> 00:10:01,970 Speaker 1: your father, and, uh, Frank. Frank Lowy started Westfield together, 207 00:10:01,980 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: so the two families were very, very close. 208 00:10:04,890 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say very, very close, but they saw each 209 00:10:07,410 --> 00:10:08,670 Speaker 1: connected, connected, 210 00:10:09,410 --> 00:10:11,340 Speaker 2: and I had a fight with him, and somehow it 211 00:10:11,350 --> 00:10:14,740 Speaker 2: turned around. He goes, you know you're adopted, don't you? 212 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:17,470 Speaker 2: And I just I kind of looked at him and 213 00:10:17,470 --> 00:10:19,470 Speaker 2: in my head as a 10 year old. I've always 214 00:10:19,470 --> 00:10:23,190 Speaker 2: been very I call it Sparky. I'm very logical. And 215 00:10:23,190 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: I just went 216 00:10:25,270 --> 00:10:27,370 Speaker 2: walked upstairs because their house was 217 00:10:28,170 --> 00:10:30,330 Speaker 2: you went upstairs and outside to go to the pool area, 218 00:10:30,330 --> 00:10:31,710 Speaker 2: and that's where you're sitting and I walked up to him, 219 00:10:31,710 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: I said, Am I adopted? And he goes, Yep, I 220 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,700 Speaker 2: went okay. And I walked away. In my mind, it 221 00:10:36,700 --> 00:10:39,660 Speaker 2: was quite logical. I'm blond, blue eyed. No one else is. 222 00:10:39,670 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 2: So 223 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,710 Speaker 1: you didn't have some kind of existential crisis to my parents. 224 00:10:43,710 --> 00:10:46,820 Speaker 1: Love me? Did you have all those fantasies about my 225 00:10:46,820 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: real mom and dad will come and get me saying, 226 00:10:49,710 --> 00:10:52,180 Speaker 2: But I say it out loud. I said I could 227 00:10:52,180 --> 00:10:53,790 Speaker 2: be a princess. You've got to treat me like a 228 00:10:53,790 --> 00:10:56,790 Speaker 2: princess or if they're dead, I'm a queen. 229 00:10:56,930 --> 00:10:59,710 Speaker 2: This is like age 11 and 12, and I'd say 230 00:10:59,710 --> 00:11:03,530 Speaker 2: to please refer to me as Queen Betty and he 231 00:11:03,530 --> 00:11:06,190 Speaker 2: would go, You're nuts. I said yes. That's the good 232 00:11:06,190 --> 00:11:08,890 Speaker 2: thing about all this. As I said, it's not affecting me. 233 00:11:08,890 --> 00:11:09,730 Speaker 2: I'm just a queen. 234 00:11:09,740 --> 00:11:13,930 Speaker 1: And ironically, you were the child of a billionaire living 235 00:11:13,930 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: this this very princess of life. Yes. And your real 236 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,830 Speaker 1: family or your biological parents? I should say 237 00:11:22,010 --> 00:11:24,700 Speaker 1: we're in a very different situation. 238 00:11:24,710 --> 00:11:27,410 Speaker 2: Well, they were dead by then, but yeah, she died 239 00:11:27,410 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 2: in the same year as my mother died, but she 240 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:32,660 Speaker 2: died in different circumstances. She died. 241 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,260 Speaker 2: The story is that she died in in the house 242 00:11:36,270 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 2: because she'd help these guys escape from jail. And it 243 00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:42,300 Speaker 2: was some story that 244 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,380 Speaker 2: I knew, but I choose to forget. So did 245 00:11:47,380 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: you ever find your biological father? 246 00:11:49,490 --> 00:11:53,130 Speaker 2: No. But someone gave me his name once, and he'd 247 00:11:53,130 --> 00:11:55,620 Speaker 2: fought in Vietnam, and then he became a policeman. 248 00:11:56,350 --> 00:11:58,390 Speaker 2: I don't know. You never looked him up. No, I 249 00:11:58,390 --> 00:12:01,460 Speaker 2: don't need to. I mean, my father is my father, 250 00:12:01,470 --> 00:12:05,020 Speaker 2: John Saunders. My father, Peter Saunders, is my mother. Clara 251 00:12:05,020 --> 00:12:07,580 Speaker 2: Saunders was my stepmother. You know, if you add them 252 00:12:07,580 --> 00:12:10,510 Speaker 2: all up, it's like three mothers, two fathers, 12 grandparents. 253 00:12:10,510 --> 00:12:13,710 Speaker 2: I don't need that. I just got one Father, one mother. 254 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:18,030 Speaker 1: When you were 11, Atta died. Your mom died. And 255 00:12:18,030 --> 00:12:21,380 Speaker 1: then a week later, your best friend died. Tell me 256 00:12:21,380 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: about what happened. 257 00:12:22,530 --> 00:12:25,050 Speaker 2: She had leukaemia. 258 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:26,300 Speaker 1: Your friend. You're 259 00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:27,060 Speaker 2: my friend. Did. 260 00:12:27,770 --> 00:12:31,300 Speaker 2: And I went over there to stay with her. And 261 00:12:31,310 --> 00:12:34,630 Speaker 2: she just died in the sleep. It was while 262 00:12:34,630 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: you were there. Yeah, 263 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: I was there. I was in the same bed I 264 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: had learned before this about death. So being a very 265 00:12:42,770 --> 00:12:45,070 Speaker 2: logical person, I just went 266 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,870 Speaker 2: okay? Because death is just a part of life. You 267 00:12:48,870 --> 00:12:52,670 Speaker 2: need to accept it, and you need to inhale it 268 00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:56,540 Speaker 2: and say it's happened. And look at it as something 269 00:12:56,540 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: that is a joy in your heart, not a dagger 270 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:00,850 Speaker 2: that is ripping it apart. 271 00:13:00,860 --> 00:13:04,350 Speaker 1: You're so pragmatic. You're an 11 year old girl whose 272 00:13:04,350 --> 00:13:09,090 Speaker 1: mother died and then who's best friend died in her arms. 273 00:13:09,670 --> 00:13:14,350 Speaker 1: It's funny. Now it would be. Let's get grief counsellors therapy. 274 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,370 Speaker 2: No, I'm not a believer in that. 275 00:13:16,380 --> 00:13:18,990 Speaker 1: Your memories of that time, though. 276 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,060 Speaker 2: Yeah. What are they? Everyone was making a fuss around me, 277 00:13:23,060 --> 00:13:27,350 Speaker 2: and I was just sitting there going, Okay, Uh, not 278 00:13:27,350 --> 00:13:31,050 Speaker 2: looking at my watch, but just looking to see, okay? Yeah, 279 00:13:31,060 --> 00:13:32,860 Speaker 2: birds around in half an hour. 280 00:13:34,730 --> 00:13:37,130 Speaker 2: My father had a psychologist. He thought I was a 281 00:13:37,130 --> 00:13:42,010 Speaker 2: little autistic because I just I can be very emotional, 282 00:13:42,020 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 2: and then I can just be black. The black means 283 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,670 Speaker 2: that I'm just not interested. Not that I'm autistic. And 284 00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:50,530 Speaker 2: so they sent me to a psychiatrist and I had, like, 285 00:13:50,530 --> 00:13:53,310 Speaker 2: four sessions, and she was a psychiatrist. That was the 286 00:13:53,310 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 2: one for child psychiatrist for Australia or whatever. And she 287 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,470 Speaker 2: goes because a letter back to my dad says she's 288 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:00,590 Speaker 2: totally sane, 289 00:14:00,950 --> 00:14:04,210 Speaker 2: that's all, she said. She's totally sane and I went, Okay, 290 00:14:04,220 --> 00:14:05,100 Speaker 2: I'll take that one. 291 00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:07,370 Speaker 1: Did your parents adopt any other Children? 292 00:14:07,370 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 2: Yes, my brother. And they knew there was something wrong 293 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:10,410 Speaker 2: with him. But 294 00:14:10,420 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: from the same orphanage? 295 00:14:11,690 --> 00:14:16,180 Speaker 2: No, by then it was just that was a child there. 296 00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:19,060 Speaker 2: But because she was sick and had cancer, they knew 297 00:14:19,060 --> 00:14:21,190 Speaker 2: there was something wrong as the cord was around his 298 00:14:21,190 --> 00:14:24,570 Speaker 2: throat when he was born. But as he grew, you 299 00:14:24,570 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: could see there was something 300 00:14:26,390 --> 00:14:31,540 Speaker 2: more wrong with him. And now he's, uh, intellectually handicapped, paranoid, 301 00:14:31,540 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: schizophrenic and autistic. But he is one of the most beautiful. Little, 302 00:14:37,690 --> 00:14:41,690 Speaker 2: not little is over six ft human beings, and in 303 00:14:41,690 --> 00:14:45,380 Speaker 2: some ways it's like, I think, Well, what would happen 304 00:14:45,390 --> 00:14:47,690 Speaker 2: if he hadn't been adopted? How 305 00:14:47,690 --> 00:14:48,890 Speaker 1: old were you when he was adopted? 306 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 2: Five. 307 00:14:49,770 --> 00:14:51,540 Speaker 1: And he was a baby. He 308 00:14:51,540 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 2: was a baby. 309 00:14:53,260 --> 00:14:56,790 Speaker 2: But as he grew, I just looked after him. And 310 00:14:56,790 --> 00:15:01,470 Speaker 2: then he was five. When her mother died, he was 311 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:06,750 Speaker 2: traumatised by to a point, and then he just did 312 00:15:06,750 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 2: what Mark did. So we had nannies and everything else. 313 00:15:09,130 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 2: I basically looked after him until my father got remarried. 314 00:15:13,330 --> 00:15:16,190 Speaker 2: And then I still looked after him. So 315 00:15:16,190 --> 00:15:19,210 Speaker 1: your father was building his business, 316 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:25,150 Speaker 1: working like crazy. His beloved wife had just died. He 317 00:15:25,150 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: had an 11 year old and a five year old 318 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,590 Speaker 1: who had an intellectual disability. 319 00:15:31,020 --> 00:15:32,370 Speaker 1: What did he do next? 320 00:15:32,380 --> 00:15:35,750 Speaker 2: He worked. Yeah, I didn't see him. He worked. I 321 00:15:35,750 --> 00:15:38,460 Speaker 2: knew he was home because he had squeaky shoes because 322 00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:41,970 Speaker 2: he had to have special shoes made and they squeaked. 323 00:15:41,970 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 2: One of them squeaked so I could hear it go 324 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: past my door at night. And then in the morning 325 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,140 Speaker 2: I'd see him for two minutes and then he would 326 00:15:49,140 --> 00:15:49,630 Speaker 2: be gone. 327 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,510 Speaker 1: Who nurtured you? He looked after you. 328 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:52,110 Speaker 2: Me? 329 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,540 Speaker 2: We had a wonderful nanny for the first two years, 330 00:15:55,550 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 2: but she had her own family problems. Her son died 331 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,180 Speaker 2: and she was older 332 00:16:00,910 --> 00:16:03,900 Speaker 1: when your father got remarried. How did you feel about that? 333 00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 2: It was hard. I was 15. She was 25. 334 00:16:06,730 --> 00:16:07,750 Speaker 1: How old was he? 335 00:16:08,390 --> 00:16:12,890 Speaker 2: 50. Yeah, he was 50. And I was 336 00:16:12,890 --> 00:16:14,260 Speaker 1: fairly standard second wife. 337 00:16:14,270 --> 00:16:16,940 Speaker 2: I think it was more of a with my Children. 338 00:16:16,940 --> 00:16:21,130 Speaker 2: Need a mother she's, you know, they suited each other. 339 00:16:21,140 --> 00:16:22,310 Speaker 2: She was 340 00:16:22,650 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 2: more religious in the Jewish because I went to Skeggs. 341 00:16:25,210 --> 00:16:27,810 Speaker 2: So I went to the Church of England school. I 342 00:16:27,810 --> 00:16:30,890 Speaker 2: knew I knew everything because I was a little naughty. 343 00:16:30,890 --> 00:16:32,780 Speaker 2: They'd stick me in the choir or they stick me 344 00:16:32,780 --> 00:16:34,460 Speaker 2: in the you know, I had to go to Chapel. 345 00:16:34,460 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 2: And 346 00:16:35,250 --> 00:16:38,330 Speaker 1: it's interesting because most people would think that. I mean, 347 00:16:38,330 --> 00:16:40,870 Speaker 1: survivors of the Holocaust usually went one of two ways. 348 00:16:40,870 --> 00:16:42,700 Speaker 1: A lot of them lost their faith. A lot of 349 00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:45,610 Speaker 1: their faith because of the Holocaust. Others sort of doubled 350 00:16:45,610 --> 00:16:46,380 Speaker 1: down on it. 351 00:16:53,850 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: Your father and step mother had a little girl called Monica. 352 00:16:58,850 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 2: Yes, they did. 353 00:17:00,130 --> 00:17:01,810 Speaker 1: Did they just have one child? 354 00:17:01,820 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: Yes, just one child. 355 00:17:03,730 --> 00:17:08,020 Speaker 2: Oh, you don't want more more. Monica's. Her heart is 356 00:17:08,030 --> 00:17:11,470 Speaker 2: as big as the sun. Her 357 00:17:12,190 --> 00:17:17,260 Speaker 2: anxiety is bigger, But what she gives, I don't know 358 00:17:17,260 --> 00:17:19,900 Speaker 2: if her mind and her body can actually handle it. 359 00:17:21,060 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 2: We get on now because I was 19 years older 360 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 2: than her and you know 361 00:17:25,570 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: So you're 19. 362 00:17:27,290 --> 00:17:28,740 Speaker 2: I was old enough to be her mother. 363 00:17:28,750 --> 00:17:31,070 Speaker 1: Okay? And your stepmother wasn't that much older than 364 00:17:31,070 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 2: you. So 365 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,690 Speaker 1: you were probably closer in age to your stepmother than 366 00:17:34,690 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: you were to your sister when they had Monica. Did 367 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,730 Speaker 1: you and your brother feel a little bit like outsiders? 368 00:17:43,740 --> 00:17:45,890 Speaker 1: I imagine that's always a bit of a challenge. 369 00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:47,010 Speaker 2: Outsiders. But 370 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: you know, like my life changed. I wasn't allowed to 371 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,260 Speaker 2: have friends over because Clara was Clara. That's so you 372 00:17:53,260 --> 00:17:54,730 Speaker 2: can't explain Aclara. 373 00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:58,150 Speaker 2: She could be playing the piano and doing liberates the 374 00:17:58,150 --> 00:18:00,740 Speaker 2: numbers in one minute. The next minute she was upset 375 00:18:00,740 --> 00:18:01,940 Speaker 2: and yelling at you. So 376 00:18:02,660 --> 00:18:05,980 Speaker 2: you know, she had her own journey. It didn't really 377 00:18:05,980 --> 00:18:09,910 Speaker 2: match with mine. And so I just Yeah, I did 378 00:18:09,910 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 2: my thing. I kept away from her and 379 00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:15,930 Speaker 1: growing up in a billionaire house, 380 00:18:16,690 --> 00:18:23,180 Speaker 1: people imagine that its staff and caviar and boats and 381 00:18:23,180 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: ponies and this incredible life, what's it actually like? 382 00:18:27,530 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: Well, I wasn't like that because my father was very 383 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 2: much a person. You work for what you get. So 384 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,250 Speaker 2: at 13, I started working as Santa's helper at the 385 00:18:35,250 --> 00:18:38,270 Speaker 2: shopping centres, and I had the real red skirt and 386 00:18:38,270 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 2: everything else. At 15, I started working at Grace Brothers, 387 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,530 Speaker 2: which is now Myers, but I always worked 388 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,970 Speaker 2: for my 18th birthday. My father said Your present is 389 00:18:49,980 --> 00:18:51,210 Speaker 2: up in the garage 390 00:18:51,820 --> 00:18:53,950 Speaker 2: and I was like, Great, 391 00:18:54,820 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 2: You know, I was so excited. That 392 00:18:56,360 --> 00:18:57,370 Speaker 1: car A house, 393 00:18:57,380 --> 00:18:58,570 Speaker 2: Yeah, 394 00:18:58,580 --> 00:19:01,650 Speaker 1: a pony, a pony. It was a push back. 395 00:19:01,650 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 2: There was a push back. Three months later, he bought 396 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 2: me a third hand, Tirana, 397 00:19:06,060 --> 00:19:10,430 Speaker 2: which I tinkered with. But that was his way of saying, 398 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:11,980 Speaker 2: you know, what do you have to look forward to 399 00:19:11,980 --> 00:19:15,250 Speaker 2: if you get it now? I always had to work 400 00:19:15,250 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 2: for what I got. 401 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,290 Speaker 2: And there was a point that was I was a 402 00:19:19,290 --> 00:19:21,870 Speaker 2: bit jealous of my sister because on her 18th she 403 00:19:21,870 --> 00:19:25,230 Speaker 2: got a I can't remember. It was a car. It 404 00:19:25,230 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: was a 405 00:19:25,610 --> 00:19:26,470 Speaker 1: fancy cars. Fancy 406 00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:29,290 Speaker 2: car on her 21st. She got an apartment, 407 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,140 Speaker 2: an investment apartment. On my 21st, I got a plastic comb, 408 00:19:33,150 --> 00:19:33,340 Speaker 2: a 409 00:19:33,340 --> 00:19:35,830 Speaker 1: plastic comb. Why? 410 00:19:36,590 --> 00:19:38,770 Speaker 2: I think my plastic home is actually worth more than 411 00:19:38,770 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: her apartment. It's 412 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:41,180 Speaker 1: not by well, 413 00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 2: it is in my world. It is because 414 00:19:45,100 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: you know, his stepmother said, You know, What are we 415 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 2: going to give her? We gotta give us something big, 416 00:19:49,010 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 2: You know? It has to be. Let's get out of 417 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,210 Speaker 2: this investment unit. On my 21st, my father was in 418 00:19:54,210 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 2: his car being driven and he said to his chauffeur, Stop, 419 00:19:57,530 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: He got out. He walked into a chemist and he 420 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 2: looked around. My father never went into shops, and he 421 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: never bought anything for anyone. 422 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,090 Speaker 2: And he saw this. When I say comb, I mean 423 00:20:07,090 --> 00:20:07,820 Speaker 2: like a 424 00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:10,950 Speaker 1: like a haircut, like an ornamental hair kind of thing, 425 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,550 Speaker 2: and you saw one had little sparkles on it, and 426 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,060 Speaker 2: he said, That's very nice. And he walked up and 427 00:20:16,060 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 2: he paid for it in cash 428 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: and held a little bag with, you know, with the 429 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 2: comb in it. And then and then he came to 430 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,970 Speaker 2: my place with the same bag. The chemist bag squished up, 431 00:20:26,980 --> 00:20:30,140 Speaker 2: and he said, I bought this for you. Happy birthday. 432 00:20:30,150 --> 00:20:33,250 Speaker 2: I mean, they gave me a huge 21st, but that 433 00:20:33,250 --> 00:20:36,620 Speaker 2: home was worth more than any present I've ever had. 434 00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:41,260 Speaker 2: So sometimes a little bit of plastic can be worth 435 00:20:41,260 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 2: more than a huge investment. You 436 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,310 Speaker 1: went on to get married and have two Children and 437 00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:47,580 Speaker 1: live the 438 00:20:47,850 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: fancy sort of eastern suburbs life that had been laid 439 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: out for you for a while. No, 440 00:20:54,410 --> 00:20:57,090 Speaker 2: no, no, no. I wasn't allowed to get engagement ring. 441 00:20:57,100 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 2: What do I have to look forward to? 442 00:20:59,860 --> 00:21:00,330 Speaker 2: But 443 00:21:00,330 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: what do you mean? You weren't allowed? Didn't the person 444 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,530 Speaker 1: you were marrying has something to do with it? 445 00:21:04,540 --> 00:21:09,390 Speaker 2: It was a partial arranged marriage because none of my 446 00:21:09,390 --> 00:21:12,610 Speaker 2: friends were Jewish. I never mixed with the Jewish crowd. 447 00:21:13,210 --> 00:21:18,370 Speaker 2: And I met my first husband, Herman, through friends of Clara's. 448 00:21:18,380 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 2: And he was 10 years older than me. Uh, I 449 00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 2: was just at the point of Okay, whatever. Even when 450 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,070 Speaker 2: I was walking down the aisle and my father said 451 00:21:26,070 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: to me, You can turn around now and walk out 452 00:21:28,050 --> 00:21:30,550 Speaker 2: because he knew it wasn't right for me. Yeah. 453 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:31,630 Speaker 1: So why did you do it? 454 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,170 Speaker 2: Because, I don't know. Something inside me just said, do it. Which, 455 00:21:36,170 --> 00:21:37,410 Speaker 2: if I hadn't done it, 456 00:21:38,370 --> 00:21:40,690 Speaker 2: you know, because my husband my second husband, who I've 457 00:21:40,690 --> 00:21:44,110 Speaker 2: been married now for 33 years, He was 10 or 458 00:21:44,110 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 2: 11 years old at the time when I got 459 00:21:46,010 --> 00:21:47,210 Speaker 1: a bit young. Then he's 460 00:21:47,210 --> 00:21:50,350 Speaker 2: 11 years younger than me, so yeah, he was 11 461 00:21:50,350 --> 00:21:50,770 Speaker 2: years old, 462 00:21:50,770 --> 00:21:52,850 Speaker 1: so he had to wait to do something to wait 463 00:21:52,860 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: 10 years, 464 00:21:53,570 --> 00:21:55,610 Speaker 2: So I had to wait. So I had two Children. 465 00:21:55,620 --> 00:21:57,230 Speaker 2: And then one day 466 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 2: I realised that there was the time to get divorced. 467 00:22:00,290 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 1: Why our 468 00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:03,650 Speaker 2: lives didn't mess, you know, he liked to play cards. 469 00:22:03,650 --> 00:22:06,730 Speaker 2: He was very much into that traditional life. And I wasn't. 470 00:22:06,730 --> 00:22:09,070 Speaker 2: I would rather go to a pub, so we were 471 00:22:09,070 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 2: just not right for each other. But we had two 472 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,730 Speaker 2: beautiful Children, and that in itself was worth everything. And 473 00:22:15,730 --> 00:22:17,830 Speaker 2: then I was his brights. May I was the bridesmaid 474 00:22:17,830 --> 00:22:18,380 Speaker 2: at his second 475 00:22:18,380 --> 00:22:19,090 Speaker 1: wedding. 476 00:22:19,170 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 2: Yes, because I have this theory of hatred is a 477 00:22:24,570 --> 00:22:26,410 Speaker 2: man made thing. 478 00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:29,220 Speaker 2: You know, if we're left to be just human, 479 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,230 Speaker 2: hatred should not be a part of, it just gets 480 00:22:33,230 --> 00:22:33,860 Speaker 2: you up. 481 00:22:33,870 --> 00:22:34,970 Speaker 1: It's not a nightly enough. 482 00:22:34,970 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 2: No, it's, you know, I can let it go. And 483 00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:39,410 Speaker 2: I thought it was wrong to let it go, but 484 00:22:39,410 --> 00:22:42,700 Speaker 2: I let it go. So I just made friends with 485 00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:44,860 Speaker 2: his future wife. Who I was there when he met 486 00:22:44,860 --> 00:22:47,850 Speaker 2: her because it was his mother's place. And were 487 00:22:47,850 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: you still married at the time? 488 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: No. I was married to my 489 00:22:49,970 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: okay. To 490 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:51,870 Speaker 2: Daniel. So you stayed in 491 00:22:51,870 --> 00:22:53,330 Speaker 1: contact because of your kids will know 492 00:22:53,330 --> 00:22:54,690 Speaker 2: that his mother would ring me up and say, Come 493 00:22:54,690 --> 00:22:55,810 Speaker 2: and get a cake. 494 00:22:55,820 --> 00:22:57,330 Speaker 1: I'm so cherish. 495 00:22:57,550 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 2: I'm not even her daughter in law anymore. Anyway, we 496 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,940 Speaker 2: went to my ex sister in law's place for dinner. 497 00:23:03,950 --> 00:23:07,470 Speaker 2: Herman was there, and Irena, who's now his wife, was 498 00:23:07,470 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 2: there and they hadn't met. This was the first time 499 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,900 Speaker 2: they were meeting, and my mother in law, ex mother 500 00:23:11,900 --> 00:23:14,730 Speaker 2: in law, was cutting up a cake and she said, 501 00:23:14,730 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 2: You want a piece of cake? I said, Yeah, sure. 502 00:23:16,170 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: But I was sitting on the other side of irony, 503 00:23:18,730 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 2: So I really grabbed the plate, a cake to pass 504 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,230 Speaker 2: to me and my mother in law screamed at her. 505 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 2: That basic cake is for Betty. Don't you take it. 506 00:23:31,930 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 2: But one thing led to another, and I really who 507 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:39,370 Speaker 2: is half Irish, half Italian. She's about four ft 11. 508 00:23:40,550 --> 00:23:41,380 Speaker 2: She has 509 00:23:41,380 --> 00:23:42,580 Speaker 1: she looked all well. 510 00:23:42,580 --> 00:23:46,390 Speaker 2: Yes, she does, But she has a heart. She's an angel. 511 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 2: She's the only person I've ever met in my life 512 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: who is a true angel. 513 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,790 Speaker 1: You have the most extraordinary family, and I do think 514 00:23:51,790 --> 00:23:53,780 Speaker 1: we do need some kind of white board to draw 515 00:23:53,780 --> 00:23:55,310 Speaker 1: it all up. Well, 516 00:23:55,310 --> 00:23:58,290 Speaker 2: the easy way to go is my ex husband was 517 00:23:58,290 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 2: born in 1949. I was born in 1959. My husband 518 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,750 Speaker 2: was born in 1969 and Herman's wife was born in 1979. 519 00:24:08,270 --> 00:24:10,270 Speaker 2: My son was born in 82. 520 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,250 Speaker 1: Okay, 521 00:24:11,260 --> 00:24:14,310 Speaker 2: my sister was born in 70. 522 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:15,260 Speaker 1: Pretty good memory. 523 00:24:15,270 --> 00:24:17,670 Speaker 2: Well, I know because it's all 10 years ago. My 524 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,540 Speaker 2: sister was born the seventh of the 8 78. I'm 525 00:24:21,540 --> 00:24:26,410 Speaker 1: sure that's suspicious. When you met Daniel, your husband you 526 00:24:26,410 --> 00:24:29,980 Speaker 1: met at a pub. You were a 29 year old, 527 00:24:29,980 --> 00:24:34,550 Speaker 1: single mouth, single mouth. That's a 29 year old single mother. 528 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:36,380 Speaker 1: He was 19. 529 00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:39,430 Speaker 2: Yes, and he worked down at the Garden Island. And 530 00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:39,820 Speaker 2: that was 531 00:24:39,820 --> 00:24:45,110 Speaker 1: kind of before the age of MILF's, you know. But 532 00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:48,020 Speaker 1: there was something between you. It's not the most likely 533 00:24:48,020 --> 00:24:50,910 Speaker 2: know. It was literally love at first sight. 534 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:51,810 Speaker 1: What do you mean? 535 00:24:51,820 --> 00:24:53,410 Speaker 2: I mean that I looked at him and 536 00:24:54,050 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 2: the first time I looked at myself my whole life 537 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,300 Speaker 2: flash before my eyes is like people say that it 538 00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:00,250 Speaker 2: happens when you die when you're about to die in 539 00:25:00,250 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 2: an accident? No. It happens when you fall in true love. 540 00:25:03,610 --> 00:25:07,340 Speaker 2: And I saw this. This old people together. I saw us, 541 00:25:08,010 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 2: I saw everything. And here is this young guy that 542 00:25:10,330 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 2: is from May travel hardly has said to his name 543 00:25:14,650 --> 00:25:16,710 Speaker 2: earns $19,000 a year. 544 00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:21,430 Speaker 2: Totally wrong in every aspect of the word. But there 545 00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:25,690 Speaker 2: was this beautiful spark that belonged to me, not to 546 00:25:25,690 --> 00:25:28,670 Speaker 2: anyone else but to me. I gave up everything for 547 00:25:28,670 --> 00:25:29,710 Speaker 2: him because 548 00:25:29,710 --> 00:25:34,900 Speaker 1: your dad said if you marry this guy, you're out. Why? 549 00:25:34,910 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 2: Because he was from the wrong side of the tracks. 550 00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:44,150 Speaker 2: His family were Ukrainians, and at that time, most of 551 00:25:44,150 --> 00:25:47,420 Speaker 2: the guards in the concentration camps were Ukrainians. 552 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,210 Speaker 2: In my father's eyes, I had a second chance. Marry 553 00:25:50,210 --> 00:25:55,470 Speaker 2: a doctor, a lawyer, someone Jewish, his Catholic. But boy, 554 00:25:55,470 --> 00:25:57,590 Speaker 2: it was the best thing I ever did. Not just 555 00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:59,630 Speaker 2: in the marriage sense, but in a sense that I 556 00:25:59,630 --> 00:26:00,670 Speaker 2: had to go to work. 557 00:26:01,260 --> 00:26:02,830 Speaker 2: I had to find a job. So I found a 558 00:26:02,830 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 2: job cooking at a like an RSL thing. I was 559 00:26:06,290 --> 00:26:06,530 Speaker 2: so 560 00:26:06,530 --> 00:26:09,830 Speaker 1: you literally had had previously access to whatever you needed. 561 00:26:10,740 --> 00:26:13,170 Speaker 1: And then you were cut off 562 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,580 Speaker 1: at any point. Did Daniel say, Hey, 563 00:26:19,090 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: I thought this would be a good idea, but I 564 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,420 Speaker 1: did think that you had a lot of money. And 565 00:26:23,420 --> 00:26:26,610 Speaker 1: now I mean, I'm being facetious because obviously you didn't. 566 00:26:26,620 --> 00:26:30,850 Speaker 1: But you both got together thinking, right, this is what 567 00:26:30,850 --> 00:26:34,220 Speaker 1: our life might look like already challenging enough big age gap. 568 00:26:34,220 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: You're a single mother, divorced, and then suddenly it's like, Okay, 569 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,180 Speaker 1: you're on the bare bones of your ass. 570 00:26:41,580 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: Did you ever have any wobbly moments where you were 571 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:44,570 Speaker 1: like 572 00:26:45,250 --> 00:26:46,270 Speaker 2: No, 573 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 2: The first thing he said to me, I'm going to 574 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,950 Speaker 2: teach you how to make ham sandwiches. I got up 575 00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:53,110 Speaker 2: at 4. 30 every morning because he left at five 576 00:26:53,110 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 2: with his father, and I literally made a full loaf 577 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,180 Speaker 2: of bread with ham. Nothing else. Nobody, nothing for his lunch, 578 00:26:59,180 --> 00:27:00,780 Speaker 1: because you've never had to do that before. 579 00:27:00,790 --> 00:27:01,990 Speaker 2: No, that's what he wanted. 580 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,070 Speaker 1: Oh, 581 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:03,770 Speaker 2: so 582 00:27:03,780 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: he laid that. 583 00:27:04,810 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 2: I made his lunch every day and I made the 584 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 2: Children's lunch. The only thing my father did pay for 585 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 2: was the Children's education, because he said, you know, and 586 00:27:13,490 --> 00:27:14,510 Speaker 2: let me keep my car. 587 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:16,380 Speaker 1: Where did you live? 588 00:27:16,390 --> 00:27:20,360 Speaker 2: May travel in his grandparents place. We painted it and 589 00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:22,940 Speaker 2: it was just a small weather board place where his 590 00:27:22,940 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 2: parents live now, but they've redone it. 591 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,340 Speaker 2: Can you imagine taking your furniture from an eastern suburbs 592 00:27:29,340 --> 00:27:31,790 Speaker 2: mansion and trying to stick it into a house in May? 593 00:27:31,790 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 2: Travel that is tiny? 594 00:27:34,510 --> 00:27:39,010 Speaker 2: It was, Oh, my. I went through a lot. I 595 00:27:39,010 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 2: went through. He taught me how to do a lot 596 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,620 Speaker 2: of things cooking I could do, but cleaning, ironing, washing. 597 00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:46,420 Speaker 1: Who did all that for you before 598 00:27:46,430 --> 00:27:49,220 Speaker 2: the housekeepers? I didn't. Do you drop your clothes on 599 00:27:49,220 --> 00:27:51,900 Speaker 2: the floor if you make it to the clothes thing 600 00:27:51,910 --> 00:27:53,670 Speaker 2: and then they're back in the cupboard. 601 00:27:54,210 --> 00:27:55,980 Speaker 2: But all of a sudden I had to do everything 602 00:27:55,980 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 2: for myself. The eastern suburbs princess got knocked on the head, 603 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 2: dragged through the mud and came out the other side thinking, Oh, 604 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 2: that was great. And I, you know, I think every 605 00:28:05,810 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 2: eastern suburbs Jewish princesses should go through a year of this. 606 00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:12,390 Speaker 2: And I think that's why I related to my fans 607 00:28:12,390 --> 00:28:14,010 Speaker 2: so well, because I was 608 00:28:14,020 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: with the supercars with 609 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,670 Speaker 2: the supercars because I was one of them. For four 610 00:28:17,670 --> 00:28:20,170 Speaker 2: years I caught buses. We 611 00:28:20,170 --> 00:28:24,070 Speaker 1: all the things that regular people do, that rich people well, 612 00:28:24,070 --> 00:28:26,300 Speaker 1: we had to reach Children. We had to 613 00:28:26,310 --> 00:28:28,810 Speaker 2: wait on a Saturday. They used to bring out 614 00:28:28,820 --> 00:28:32,020 Speaker 2: the car with the meat that was used by date 615 00:28:32,020 --> 00:28:33,940 Speaker 2: was that day. And we used to wait for that 616 00:28:33,940 --> 00:28:36,060 Speaker 2: to come out and we get the sausages of that 617 00:28:36,070 --> 00:28:38,150 Speaker 2: and the kids would get the sausages and we ate 618 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 2: whatever because he was on 19,000 grocer you. So 619 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:47,300 Speaker 1: you had a completely different socio economic experience overnight, 620 00:28:47,310 --> 00:28:48,140 Speaker 2: overnight 621 00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: Everything seems to happen to me overnight, and for some reason, 622 00:28:53,290 --> 00:28:56,980 Speaker 2: which is probably thank the powers that be, they've allowed 623 00:28:56,980 --> 00:28:58,740 Speaker 2: me to be able to soak it all in and 624 00:28:58,750 --> 00:29:01,220 Speaker 2: not be traumatised by it. I mean, otherwise I'd be 625 00:29:01,220 --> 00:29:04,670 Speaker 2: in a mental institution somewhere. But everything that's happened to 626 00:29:04,670 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 2: me in my life was just when I think back 627 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: on it, it actually, if I wrote it down as 628 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,620 Speaker 2: a story will be very scary. When I see something 629 00:29:14,620 --> 00:29:16,390 Speaker 2: that scares me, I walk into it. 630 00:29:17,020 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: I don't allow the fear to overcome 631 00:29:20,750 --> 00:29:22,420 Speaker 2: what joy I might find in there 632 00:29:22,430 --> 00:29:25,730 Speaker 1: What was the hardest part of going from? 633 00:29:26,990 --> 00:29:30,790 Speaker 1: You're very privileged life to one sort of on the 634 00:29:30,790 --> 00:29:32,420 Speaker 1: poverty line. Almost 635 00:29:32,430 --> 00:29:34,860 Speaker 2: was my Children trying to explain to them why I 636 00:29:34,860 --> 00:29:36,620 Speaker 2: was doing this? I mean, they were young. 637 00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:37,310 Speaker 1: What did you tell 638 00:29:37,310 --> 00:29:39,650 Speaker 2: them? I told them that I The truth. I did 639 00:29:39,650 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: it for love. 640 00:29:41,450 --> 00:29:45,230 Speaker 2: And my father had a cousin in Israel. And the 641 00:29:45,230 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 2: cousin came to Australia to visit him. And because I 642 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,690 Speaker 2: used to ring my father every day, I used to 643 00:29:50,690 --> 00:29:52,550 Speaker 2: be his secretary last week when 644 00:29:52,550 --> 00:29:53,570 Speaker 1: he wasn't speaking to know when 645 00:29:53,570 --> 00:29:55,610 Speaker 2: he wasn't speaking to me, I would ring him every 646 00:29:55,610 --> 00:29:58,930 Speaker 2: day at about 4. 30 and I get the secretary 647 00:29:58,930 --> 00:30:01,030 Speaker 2: and she put me through and he'd pick up the phone. 648 00:30:01,030 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 2: He wouldn't say hello. Wouldn't say anything. And I'd say, 649 00:30:03,270 --> 00:30:06,820 Speaker 2: Hi, Daddy. Well, today Matthew did this. And today Ricky 650 00:30:06,820 --> 00:30:09,460 Speaker 2: did that, and Anthony was being a pain in the bum. 651 00:30:09,460 --> 00:30:11,710 Speaker 2: So I had to do this. I told him my 652 00:30:11,710 --> 00:30:14,910 Speaker 2: whole day, every day, and then when he'd heard enough, 653 00:30:14,910 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 2: he just put the phone down without saying a word 654 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:16,900 Speaker 2: to 655 00:30:16,900 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: me. And why did you do that? 656 00:30:19,770 --> 00:30:23,710 Speaker 2: Because this was not my problem. I wasn't shunning him. 657 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,130 Speaker 1: But you didn't feel hurt by his rejection. 658 00:30:26,750 --> 00:30:31,100 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say heard I understood his rejection. I understood 659 00:30:31,100 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 2: it and I went well. I don't feel that way. 660 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,510 Speaker 2: So I am going to tell you what is happening 661 00:30:36,510 --> 00:30:39,100 Speaker 2: to my Children. What's happening to me? I want you 662 00:30:39,100 --> 00:30:41,070 Speaker 2: to know I want you in my life. And if 663 00:30:41,070 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 2: the only way I can do that is to talk 664 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 2: to an empty phone, I'll do it. 665 00:30:44,530 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: And you do that every day, 666 00:30:45,570 --> 00:30:47,530 Speaker 2: every day for four years. 667 00:30:47,540 --> 00:30:48,090 Speaker 1: And then what 668 00:30:48,090 --> 00:30:51,260 Speaker 2: changed? The Israeli cousin. The cousin came and said to 669 00:30:51,260 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 2: my father, You're nuts and even my father said, What 670 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 2: do you mean he goes? 671 00:30:54,860 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 2: Does he hit her? No. Does he drink? No. Is 672 00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,050 Speaker 2: he a drug addict? No. 673 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,550 Speaker 2: How does he treat? My father said, Well, from what 674 00:31:02,550 --> 00:31:04,410 Speaker 2: I can get from other people, he treats her like 675 00:31:04,410 --> 00:31:08,030 Speaker 2: a queen, cooks meals for her. She does this and 676 00:31:08,030 --> 00:31:10,700 Speaker 2: he said, And this is why you're not talking to her? 677 00:31:10,710 --> 00:31:13,220 Speaker 2: Because the man wants to treat her like a queen. 678 00:31:13,230 --> 00:31:18,190 Speaker 2: He said, You are nuts yet together talk. So we did. 679 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 2: I went on a holiday with him and my brother, 680 00:31:21,230 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 2: which I was involved in a plane crash. But that's 681 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,850 Speaker 2: because you were Yeah, 682 00:31:25,860 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. Things 683 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,010 Speaker 2: like this happened to me, but I will walk away. 684 00:31:30,020 --> 00:31:30,180 Speaker 2: Don't 685 00:31:30,180 --> 00:31:32,390 Speaker 1: usually laugh when someone says, And then I was involved 686 00:31:32,390 --> 00:31:34,420 Speaker 1: in a plane crash. But, you know, 687 00:31:34,940 --> 00:31:36,730 Speaker 2: the thing is, if you're in a plane crash with me, 688 00:31:36,730 --> 00:31:39,060 Speaker 2: you know you're going to survive. It's just this thing 689 00:31:39,060 --> 00:31:40,190 Speaker 2: I have, you know, 690 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:40,690 Speaker 1: like 691 00:31:41,900 --> 00:31:42,710 Speaker 2: I don't know 692 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,950 Speaker 1: your relationship was I mean, plane crash aside, Your relationship 693 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:48,570 Speaker 1: was prepared, 694 00:31:48,580 --> 00:31:49,500 Speaker 2: it was repaired. 695 00:31:49,510 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: And did that mean that the money tap got turned 696 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:52,890 Speaker 1: back on? 697 00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:56,510 Speaker 2: Sort of like I said before, he made me work 698 00:31:56,510 --> 00:32:00,330 Speaker 2: for what I got. So I call it the string effect. 699 00:32:00,340 --> 00:32:02,770 Speaker 2: Every Jewish parent has what they have this string effect, 700 00:32:02,780 --> 00:32:04,770 Speaker 2: where they put the pin with a string and that 701 00:32:04,780 --> 00:32:07,430 Speaker 2: goes so far, he said, You can live in that circle. 702 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:08,330 Speaker 2: Uh 703 00:32:08,810 --> 00:32:09,940 Speaker 1: and 704 00:32:09,950 --> 00:32:12,330 Speaker 2: so my father had his long start off with this 705 00:32:12,330 --> 00:32:12,950 Speaker 2: long string. 706 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,750 Speaker 2: He said, I'll buy your house. I said, OK, so 707 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 2: I looked in Randwick and Maru brah and he says, Um, 708 00:32:20,850 --> 00:32:23,470 Speaker 2: this is a bit too far better to, so he's 709 00:32:23,470 --> 00:32:25,970 Speaker 2: short and the string is shortened. The string until I 710 00:32:25,980 --> 00:32:28,270 Speaker 2: bought the house that was on the corner of Old 711 00:32:28,270 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 2: South Head Road and Victoria's Road. It's right on that 712 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,100 Speaker 2: corner where the lights is. We moved in there. We 713 00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 2: lived there and then we moved from there to darling point, 714 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,650 Speaker 2: and it was one of those old Victorian type houses. 715 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,860 Speaker 2: And I woke up one morning and said, We've got 716 00:32:46,860 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 2: to move and Daniel goes Why? I said, because I've 717 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,670 Speaker 2: got this feeling. We gotta move. So we sold it 718 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,700 Speaker 2: and we bought in Victoria Road in Bellevue Hill and 719 00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:59,500 Speaker 2: in Darling Point, the houses on old Victorian houses on 720 00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:01,010 Speaker 2: either side all of a sudden will pull down and 721 00:33:01,010 --> 00:33:02,140 Speaker 2: made into apartments. 722 00:33:02,790 --> 00:33:04,390 Speaker 2: So it was the one that we had been in. 723 00:33:04,390 --> 00:33:07,660 Speaker 2: But besides all that, and I just totally forgotten. So 724 00:33:07,660 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: your dad wanted you close to him living close to 725 00:33:11,070 --> 00:33:14,930 Speaker 2: him, and then Daniel converted to 726 00:33:14,930 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: Judaism. Why did he decide to do that? 727 00:33:17,850 --> 00:33:19,590 Speaker 2: Because we had a son. And he said, I want 728 00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:21,310 Speaker 2: to stand next to my son and his bar mitzvah 729 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:21,770 Speaker 2: so 730 00:33:21,770 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: he didn't do it for your dad. I mean, the 731 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,190 Speaker 1: cynic could say You run your dad every day to 732 00:33:26,190 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: try to get back in the will. Daniel converted to 733 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:30,750 Speaker 1: try to get more money. 734 00:33:31,050 --> 00:33:32,180 Speaker 1: I don't get that sense. 735 00:33:32,180 --> 00:33:35,190 Speaker 2: Money has never been a big thing for me. The 736 00:33:35,190 --> 00:33:38,130 Speaker 2: only big thing that I do do is my sport, 737 00:33:38,140 --> 00:33:41,060 Speaker 2: the motor cars and my jewellery. I like diamonds 738 00:33:41,060 --> 00:33:41,330 Speaker 1: like, 739 00:33:41,660 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 2: Well, it's not. I don't even call it blink. I 740 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,140 Speaker 2: just like it. I like the sparkling part. 741 00:33:46,150 --> 00:33:47,370 Speaker 1: Yeah, 742 00:33:47,380 --> 00:33:49,870 Speaker 2: and because I've always been a big girl, I used 743 00:33:49,870 --> 00:33:53,860 Speaker 2: to wear 100 and 50 kg, which is a big girl. 744 00:33:53,860 --> 00:33:56,610 Speaker 2: You could rest a cup and saucer on my backside 745 00:33:56,990 --> 00:34:00,020 Speaker 1: because you're small in stature, not very 746 00:34:00,170 --> 00:34:03,700 Speaker 2: free. And I wait 100 and 50 kg. 747 00:34:04,430 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 2: You know, people go on about Oh, you know, you 748 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,330 Speaker 2: must have had some traumatic something something to make you 749 00:34:09,330 --> 00:34:11,570 Speaker 2: do this. And I went No, I just like food. 750 00:34:12,100 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 2: And then one day at the kindergarten, someone said, you 751 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,980 Speaker 2: know which ones Anthony's mother and they said the fat 752 00:34:16,980 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 2: one and I went Okay, stop eating shit starting. Well, 753 00:34:20,650 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 2: I lost 60 kg. That's where I am now. So 754 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,890 Speaker 2: when people say to me, Oh, you know you're a 755 00:34:26,890 --> 00:34:29,410 Speaker 2: curvy girl or you're a big girl. I go who? 756 00:34:29,410 --> 00:34:32,130 Speaker 2: You should have seen me when I was 150 kg. 757 00:34:32,140 --> 00:34:33,750 Speaker 2: I think I look beautiful. 758 00:34:34,260 --> 00:34:38,210 Speaker 2: You know, I'm 63 years old. Why on earth would 759 00:34:38,210 --> 00:34:41,380 Speaker 2: I trouble myself putting myself on a stupid diet that 760 00:34:41,380 --> 00:34:43,830 Speaker 2: they all go on or anything else? I'm happy. I've 761 00:34:43,830 --> 00:34:46,940 Speaker 2: got my dogs. I got my husband. I've got the country. 762 00:34:46,950 --> 00:34:50,420 Speaker 2: Why on earth doesn't matter if I were a 16 763 00:34:50,420 --> 00:34:52,620 Speaker 2: or 12? Gene, it's a number. 764 00:34:52,630 --> 00:34:56,230 Speaker 1: You're in such a unique position to reflect on the 765 00:34:56,230 --> 00:34:58,580 Speaker 1: difference between nature and nurture. And it sounds like something 766 00:34:58,580 --> 00:34:59,900 Speaker 1: you've thought about a lot. 767 00:35:00,210 --> 00:35:03,910 Speaker 1: How much of who you are, Betty Klimenko today or 768 00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:08,020 Speaker 1: through your life is about You were born that way. 769 00:35:08,030 --> 00:35:11,630 Speaker 1: And how much is a result of your upbringing with 770 00:35:11,630 --> 00:35:13,230 Speaker 1: you with your father and mother, 771 00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 2: I'd say 772 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 2: it's a good 60 40. I'd say 40% of who 773 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,910 Speaker 2: I the blood that runs through my veins 774 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: and the rest is my father. My father was a 775 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,810 Speaker 2: weird man. So it's That's where I got my weirdness from, 776 00:35:27,810 --> 00:35:30,870 Speaker 2: You know, I'd be sitting in a meeting and 777 00:35:31,420 --> 00:35:33,580 Speaker 2: he would drop a piece of ice down my back, 778 00:35:33,590 --> 00:35:35,290 Speaker 2: just walked past me and drop a piece of ice 779 00:35:35,290 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 2: down my back. And I'm sitting there going, you know? 780 00:35:37,850 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 2: But he was also he could be a mean. I mean, 781 00:35:43,070 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 2: you have to think back that we were in a 782 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:46,490 Speaker 2: different time and 783 00:35:47,590 --> 00:35:49,230 Speaker 2: I was on the board and, you know, if he 784 00:35:49,230 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 2: wanted to, he would say to me, Be quiet. No 785 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 2: one wants to hear your opinion, not because I was 786 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,020 Speaker 2: a woman, but because I was his 787 00:35:56,020 --> 00:36:01,270 Speaker 1: child. Now there's more to the story. So we've recorded 788 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,990 Speaker 1: a second bonus episode for Mamma Mia paid subscribers. You 789 00:36:05,990 --> 00:36:09,020 Speaker 1: can hear Part two of our conversation where we speak 790 00:36:09,030 --> 00:36:12,270 Speaker 1: about what happened when Betty was orphaned for the second 791 00:36:12,270 --> 00:36:12,720 Speaker 1: time 792 00:36:12,730 --> 00:36:15,140 Speaker 2: when my father died. He had retired from Westfield, had 793 00:36:15,140 --> 00:36:16,570 Speaker 2: built up a business, 794 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,290 Speaker 2: but back then, that's going back 25 30 years. It 795 00:36:21,290 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 2: was worth 796 00:36:22,950 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 2: much less than what everyone thought it was. You know, 797 00:36:25,650 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 2: 25 years since he's died, we have 20 fold times 798 00:36:32,450 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 2: made 799 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:33,810 Speaker 1: increase the value to 800 00:36:33,820 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 2: increase the value 801 00:36:34,890 --> 00:36:37,060 Speaker 1: what she does with all her money. 802 00:36:37,070 --> 00:36:39,240 Speaker 2: My father once told me something, and that's when I 803 00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:40,860 Speaker 2: go by the same thing. I don't have to worry 804 00:36:40,860 --> 00:36:42,470 Speaker 2: where my breakfast is coming from. 805 00:36:43,410 --> 00:36:44,130 Speaker 1: That's it. 806 00:36:44,670 --> 00:36:46,410 Speaker 2: And how much can I do 807 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,050 Speaker 2: to help people who need help? 808 00:36:49,060 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: And what happened when she went to find her biological 809 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,690 Speaker 1: family to hear it and become a Mamma Mia subscriber? 810 00:36:55,700 --> 00:36:58,740 Speaker 1: Follow the links in the show notes. No. Philtre is 811 00:36:58,740 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: produced by GM Oil, and the executive producer is Eliza Ratliff. 812 00:37:02,570 --> 00:37:05,670 Speaker 1: And I'm Mia Freedman. Thanks for having me in your ears.