Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello, and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud and to our Friday show where
Speaker 2: we take a break from the news cycle and breathe
Speaker 2: out Today my friends, It's Friday, the fifth of July,
Speaker 2: and I'm Hollywaynwright, I'm Mea Friedman.
Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2: And if you want to hear more from us, why
Speaker 2: wouldn't you want to hear more from us?
Speaker 3: Well, there's a weekend ahead, so you're playing the time
Speaker 3: all this time and you're wondering what you should listen to.
Speaker 2: It was the last of season one of Mid. Do
Speaker 2: not worry if you like MID, and if you don't,
Speaker 2: why not go listen to it? But Mid is the
Speaker 2: show I host for gen X women and it's thoughtful conversations.
Speaker 2: And the last one of season one is with Christine Arnou.
Speaker 2: You know who she is. She's a bloody icon, but
Speaker 2: it's just the most amazing, frank conversation. She talks about
Speaker 2: everything from how she was so flattened by a divorce
Speaker 2: she couldn't get out of and she very much had
Speaker 2: to rely on her kids and how she thinks that
Speaker 2: was probably quite a good thing for them to see
Speaker 2: that they could look after her sometimes. She also talks
Speaker 2: about what it's like as an indigenous woman Christine and
Speaker 2: is from the Torres Strait to have two children who
Speaker 2: look very different and so the world reacts to them
Speaker 2: very differently. That was a really fascinating part of the conversation.
Speaker 2: And she also just talked about addiction, about what happens
Speaker 2: when the pop music industry decided you're too old. It's
Speaker 2: a great conversation. Go and listen to it and we'll
Speaker 2: be back. The season two have mad really quickly.
Speaker 1: I interviewed on lo Field this week. Some blokes don't
Speaker 1: do that that often, but it's always too popular. And
Speaker 1: there made some new friends. Jimmy and nath have a
Speaker 1: radio show. I honestly wouldn't even know how to listen
Speaker 1: to the radio.
Speaker 2: An I'm also I'm only laughing because I love how
Speaker 2: you're like, and I've made some new friends and now
Speaker 2: then my new best friends.
Speaker 4: I love it.
Speaker 1: I know they've then compared to Homie Nandy, but they
Speaker 1: are younger and they are like quite feminist, and Jimmy
Speaker 1: has mental health struggles. Nath has his own real life
Speaker 1: interesting story. His wife has cystic fibrosis and they're best friends.
Speaker 1: They worked together. They're really interesting and it was very
Speaker 1: sort of candid the conversation on canceled.
Speaker 3: We did Katy Perry, which is interesting news cycle.
Speaker 1: We didn't talk about that so out louders if you
Speaker 1: haven't seen that photo that's gone everywhere. She's at some
Speaker 1: fashion show and she's wearing laddered tights and nothing and
Speaker 1: an open like fur coat.
Speaker 3: Now, there have been a lot of Katie Perry controversies
Speaker 3: over the year, cause she's been around for a long
Speaker 3: time ever since, like she's.
Speaker 1: Just relaunching career relaunching.
Speaker 3: Yes, and remember obviously her Russell Brand marriage and now
Speaker 3: she's with Orlando Bloom. Anyway, so we talk about everything
Speaker 3: from her alleged feud with Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2: You might have forgotten about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they made up in that video clip. And I
Speaker 1: remember she did that film clip Katie Perry where whipped
Speaker 1: cream or something come out of her boobs.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we talk about all of that.
Speaker 3: It was a really really fun one. That's the most
Speaker 3: recent episode of canceled.
Speaker 1: We will put a link to all of those episodes
Speaker 1: in the show notes. Get more of us in your ears,
Speaker 1: because why wouldn't you.
Speaker 2: On today's show? Why did one of the world's biggest
Speaker 2: superstars decide to let a film crew record her very
Speaker 2: lowest times? Also recommendations which include a show that will
Speaker 2: change your mind about agen x Icon, something you can
Speaker 2: do with three generations, and the best kind of shopping,
Speaker 2: The Freak Kidd and a lesson Never learned, a very
Speaker 2: messy Miya and Jesse's Saturday Night that's this week's best
Speaker 2: and worst. But first, Mia Friedman.
Speaker 1: If you were a day of the week, what day
Speaker 1: would you be?
Speaker 3: What are you asking me? Are you asking me what
Speaker 3: my favorite time of the week?
Speaker 1: In no, so, your whole personality can be summed up
Speaker 1: by a day of the week.
Speaker 3: Can I guess yours?
Speaker 1: You can? But before you do, I'm going to come down.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, m Vernon, who you often hear as a guest
Speaker 1: host on this podcast and who writes the Out Loud newsletter.
Speaker 1: She wrote a piece on Mamma Meir about it this
Speaker 1: week that's gone off. So you do this little quiz
Speaker 1: right If you're a Monday. You live to work and
Speaker 1: you love it. You're smart, structured, and organized. Some people
Speaker 1: would describe you as the planner in your household, and
Speaker 1: you love holding that position. If you're a Monday, you
Speaker 1: have your entire month planned out. Yeah, Tuesday, you love
Speaker 1: filling your cup. You aim for a perfect mix of
Speaker 1: fulfillment from both work and leisure. You love the feeling
Speaker 1: of achieving something, whether it be completing a big project
Speaker 1: at work or making your bed in the morning. Maybe
Speaker 1: you can also speak up for yourself, which when you
Speaker 1: think you are Wednesday. If you're a Wednesday, you are
Speaker 1: the glue of your friendship groups. Your calm demeanor allows
Speaker 1: you to be the person that everyone opens up to
Speaker 1: and feels safe with your level headed and known for
Speaker 1: never rushing into anything, you are usually the forgotten souls
Speaker 1: among the other louder personalities. I'm looking at you Thursdays,
Speaker 1: which we're about to get to. But that just makes
Speaker 1: you more powerful. One of your biggest strengths as a
Speaker 1: Wednesday is listening, making you a keeper of all the secrets.
Speaker 1: Oh you think that sounds like cute?
Speaker 2: Okay, like when ques it sounds a bit boring. Al
Speaker 2: so powerful.
Speaker 1: If you identify as a Thursday. You really wanted to
Speaker 1: be a weekend day, but didn't want to sound too obnoxious.
Speaker 1: Thursdays love a fun time, but not a long time.
Speaker 1: You want to be home by nine pm us, but
Speaker 1: if you're at a social event, you are the social event.
Speaker 1: The minute everyone finds out that a Thursday is coming,
Speaker 1: the vibe is immediately lifted. You're a master of small
Speaker 1: talk and can make anyone feel like they're interesting and funny.
Speaker 1: You know a good idea when you see it and
Speaker 1: love tapping into that creative side of your mind. A Thursday, okay,
Speaker 1: so Friday. You live your life so carefree that we
Speaker 1: never know what you're going to do next. It's extremely
Speaker 1: hard for someone to lock you down, as your calendar
Speaker 1: is filled with plan after plan every single day of
Speaker 1: the week. You love big events, the more people, the better.
Speaker 1: You struggle to juggle your social calendar and are known
Speaker 1: for being a bit spacey when it comes to remembering
Speaker 1: important theme.
Speaker 2: Well, that's true, but the rest of it.
Speaker 1: Friday is the life of the party. Saturday you're ready.
Speaker 1: Saturday's prioritize their leisure and relaxation over anything else. You
Speaker 1: work to live and love counting down the days to
Speaker 1: your next big holiday. If you're a Saturday person, I
Speaker 1: have one question for you. What's your hobby? I know
Speaker 1: you have one, maybe.
Speaker 3: On a Saturday.
Speaker 2: I like not I like you're a mad worker.
Speaker 1: I'd like you whole, but also not. Okay, final day Sunday.
Speaker 1: If someone were to throw a ball at your face
Speaker 1: right now, you'd catch it.
Speaker 2: That's none of us.
Speaker 3: I have incredible reflex because you.
Speaker 1: Are prepared for anything. Sundays are similar to Mondays, but
Speaker 1: they're not as good as an organization. You love planning
Speaker 1: your day exactly the way you want it, and you're
Speaker 1: not too bothered with anyone else. You have to have
Speaker 1: your me time and will decline any social plans if
Speaker 1: you've already carved out time for yourself.
Speaker 3: I'm just going to go vibe. My vibe when you
Speaker 3: initially asked that question was immediately Jesse. Your Thursday. And
Speaker 3: the reason I think I'm a Thursday is because I
Speaker 3: like the prospect of the end of the week without
Speaker 3: the pressure of a weekend. So I love knowing that
Speaker 3: the weekend is coming. But you don't have to plan anything.
Speaker 3: You're just living in the joy of knowing freedom, anticipatory.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my favorite day of the week is Friday for
Speaker 2: similar reasons. It's kind of better than Saturday because it's
Speaker 2: all it's the coodner, it's the promise. Anything could happen.
Speaker 2: But I'm clearly not a Friday. I want to be
Speaker 2: a Thursday. But I did a quit it online that
Speaker 2: just said I was Sunday and it said you are
Speaker 2: a funny and sweet person to be around, which sounded
Speaker 2: like patronizing bullshit, and I.
Speaker 1: Was like, no, I'm not Eric, I'm actually a Monday.
Speaker 3: I knew you were, because of course you are.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, the first clue is you live to work and
Speaker 1: you love it. You're smart, structured, and organized. I don't
Speaker 1: know if i'm those things.
Speaker 3: You're just sad, I think, day am.
Speaker 1: I I haven't done the quiz for you. Bloody hell?
Speaker 1: Do I have to do everything around here?
Speaker 5: My voice.
Speaker 7: Is the conductor of my life. When your voice brings
Speaker 7: you joy, my kid, check in, you're the best of yourself.
Speaker 2: I need my instrument.
Speaker 5: Sorry, sorry.
Speaker 4: Your emergency.
Speaker 3: Last Friday night, I found myself watching one hour and
Speaker 3: forty three minutes of a documentary about Selene Dion, which
Speaker 3: I didn't expect. I started it and I thought, if
Speaker 3: it doesn't get me and I won't continue it, and
Speaker 3: then I'd watched all of I am is what it's called.
Speaker 3: We are going to talk about some of the themes
Speaker 3: and more broadly, about the story of what's happened to
Speaker 3: fifty six year old Selene Dion. You've probably seen headlines
Speaker 3: about her recently, so you don't actually have to have
Speaker 3: watched the documentary. Most notably, the Canadian singer was diagnosed
Speaker 3: with an incredibly rare progressive autoimmune neurological disorder called stiff
Speaker 3: person syndrome in twenty twenty two, and for nearly two
Speaker 3: decades before her diagnosis, she was dealing with spasms and pain.
Speaker 3: She was on a lot of medication. There are points
Speaker 3: in the documentary where she talks about how much value
Speaker 3: she was taking in order to even perform. SPS affects
Speaker 3: one in one million people, twice as many women as men,
Speaker 3: and can be managed but not cured. At this point
Speaker 3: in the documentary, Dion explained what SPS is.
Speaker 6: Here's what she said, and today diagnosis SPS, which is
Speaker 6: stiff person's central It's in the muscle, it's in attendance,
Speaker 6: it's in the nerves. You can't see anything because it's
Speaker 6: not seeable.
Speaker 3: On top of how debilitating this disorder is, it has
Speaker 3: most devastatingly to her, impacted her ability to sing when
Speaker 3: she tries to sing, this is what happens.
Speaker 7: When I try to breathe. My lungs are fine. It's
Speaker 7: what's in front of my lungs.
Speaker 5: That's so rigid.
Speaker 7: It's like, I know you, that's what happens.
Speaker 1: It's like I know what I want.
Speaker 3: To do, and now you can show me.
Speaker 5: And that's what happens.
Speaker 1: And it's very difficult for me.
Speaker 2: Do you hear them to shut this?
Speaker 3: When the director Oscar nominated filmmaker Irene Taylor approached Selene
Speaker 3: Dion about the potential documentary, she actually didn't know about
Speaker 3: Dion's health. It was only later that she learned about
Speaker 3: the illness. And there are really confronting scenes in the documentary,
Speaker 3: including one depicting a seizure where Dion is moaning in pain.
Speaker 3: Taylor offered to cut the footage, but it was Dion
Speaker 3: who wanted it in. She said, I think this film
Speaker 3: can help me. I think this film can help others
Speaker 3: understand what it's like to be in my body. You
Speaker 3: both watched this documentary this week. What did you take
Speaker 3: away from it?
Speaker 1: I was heartbroken by it. I was riveted by it too.
Speaker 1: Like I wasn't a big Celendion fan, I sort of
Speaker 1: followed her. I've never really loved her music. I mean,
Speaker 1: she's obviously an incredible singer, but I've never really been
Speaker 1: a big fan of her music. But she was very
Speaker 1: much a tabloid fixture when I was in magazines.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 1: She married her manager who'd known her since he sort
Speaker 1: of discovered her when she was twelve, and he was
Speaker 1: much older than her, and they had children together, and
Speaker 1: then he got throat cancer and fought that for quite
Speaker 1: a long time and died about five or six years ago,
Speaker 1: soon after they had their twins. I watched it, and
Speaker 1: I found it incredibly moving. I kept asking myself, I
Speaker 1: wonder why she did this. It was very surprising because
Speaker 1: it was completely without vanity. She had no makeup on
Speaker 1: in any of it. I mean, it was interspersed with
Speaker 1: footage of her on stage. And I was reminded of
Speaker 1: what an extraordinary talent and extraordinary voice she has, or
Speaker 1: she had, which is what's so sad and what we
Speaker 1: just heard then she was the only person who was
Speaker 1: interviewed through it, and it's shot in a very tight style,
Speaker 1: so it's very unforgiving.
Speaker 2: It's nearly all in her house as well, Yeah, which
Speaker 2: I think is a very deliberate choice, because in a
Speaker 2: way it was interspersed with all these arena shows and awards,
Speaker 2: ceremonies and performances at you know, massive, massive events, and
Speaker 2: it showed you that her life has shrunk to her
Speaker 2: living in this very palatial, obviously amazing compound in Las Vegas.
Speaker 2: I don't understand why she lives in Las Vegas, but anyway,
Speaker 2: and she's feeding her dog, she is feeding guinea pigs,
Speaker 2: she is doing medical appointments, she is with her children.
Speaker 2: Her life is now just this appointment, very small, completely
Speaker 2: different existence. And I thought that was quite powerfully shown.
Speaker 3: She's only fifty six. That I had to google it
Speaker 3: while I was watching it because I thought, hang On
Speaker 3: to have an illness of that severity at that age
Speaker 3: is just really, really sad. But in terms of why
Speaker 3: she made this documentary, I was wondering the same thing.
Speaker 3: And then there's the scene at the end which I
Speaker 3: referred to, where she has a seizure and for a
Speaker 3: lot of people, that would be your worst nightmare. Have
Speaker 3: you in that kind of state broadcast to the world.
Speaker 3: It's incredibly vulnerable, and she's not really conscious and she's
Speaker 3: in pain, like it's really scary and really full on.
Speaker 3: But I think that this is more broadly a story
Speaker 3: about chronic illness and how people who are living with
Speaker 3: a chronic illness, which is often invisible, how desperately they
Speaker 3: want to be seen. Because if you say that you
Speaker 3: have this, and in fact it often doesn't show up
Speaker 3: on scans, it's really difficult to get a diagnosis. Then
Speaker 3: I think there's this instinct to think that people aren't
Speaker 3: going to believe you, and so you want to perform
Speaker 3: or prove just how sick you are. And with someone
Speaker 3: who has this level of obligation to her fans, and
Speaker 3: I think she's horrified that towards the end of when
Speaker 3: she was most recently performing, she couldn't do it, and
Speaker 3: she would have little tricks like she would tap on
Speaker 3: the microphone and pretend that I was anars she with
Speaker 3: the microphone, or she'd point the microphone at the crowd.
Speaker 3: I think she feels such shame that she let them down.
Speaker 1: That she had to cancel her residency.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Us, this is almost a doctor's certificate to go. I
Speaker 3: need you to say how sick I am, so that
Speaker 3: you understand I never wanted to let you down.
Speaker 2: I think that's very true. Because to your point about
Speaker 2: invisible illnesses, because this is quite a long film, there
Speaker 2: are portions of it that are kind of fun.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: She's actually a good time to hang out with Celinda
Speaker 2: on She was quite funny. She has stories. Obviously, she
Speaker 2: clearly loves what she does or what she did so
Speaker 2: much that it's almost all of her. And she takes
Speaker 2: you to her warehouse where all her wardrobe archive is,
Speaker 2: and it's clear how much she loved all that, the clothes,
Speaker 2: the shoes, her home amazing. So a lot of it
Speaker 2: is kind of fun, and there are periods of it
Speaker 2: where you kind of like, oh, she doesn't seem that sick,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. She seems all right. She's
Speaker 2: getting around a bit, she's you know, playing with the dogs.
Speaker 2: She's going to do a little job here and there.
Speaker 2: One of the things for people who have invisible chronic
Speaker 2: illnesses is they have to still live life with this
Speaker 2: thing that no one can see, and it's very easy
Speaker 2: for people to discount it and be like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with you, or like, oh, you seem
Speaker 2: heaps better today, you know, like, and it's kind of
Speaker 2: an assumption that there's always a positive momentum. And so
Speaker 2: when the film kind of ends, it ends with her
Speaker 2: going back to the studio and singing, and she actually
Speaker 2: sounds pretty good, and her producers are saying, oh, good
Speaker 2: on you, and she loved it, and you could tell
Speaker 2: she's all lit up by it, and then she has
Speaker 2: this terrible seizure and it's kind of showing you that
Speaker 2: this is not going away, and this is much more
Speaker 2: serious than it may represent on her body from the outside.
Speaker 3: That's interesting because stressful situations loud noises, physical touch, there
Speaker 3: are certain triggers that can trigger the spasms and the
Speaker 3: seizures and stuff that come from it, which is actually
Speaker 3: with a lot of autoimmune disorders and a lot of
Speaker 3: chronic illnesses. Anything from stress, which sounds like a really
Speaker 3: broad umbrella term, can throw the body into fight or flight.
Speaker 3: And so even though you might see these moments of
Speaker 3: someone piercing through and being able to do it, the
Speaker 3: cost is invisible to us.
Speaker 1: Because it's not even negative just negative stress. It's also
Speaker 1: positive stress.
Speaker 3: Because she was lit up by that and exerting energy, really.
Speaker 1: Stimulated by it. And also though it was interesting, she
Speaker 1: said this first happened seventeen years ago. She started noticing
Speaker 1: symptoms and she didn't know what it was, and so
Speaker 1: she said, I've been hiding it all this time, and
Speaker 1: I can't lie anymore. And I think you're right. This
Speaker 1: is her doctor's note, but also her confessional, because the
Speaker 1: emotional cost of having to maintain a lie is so
Speaker 1: high and had become unbearable for her, and she said,
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like people see me out laughing
Speaker 1: with my family and they're like, but you cancel your
Speaker 1: concert tickets. Why aren't you performing? So you're right, She's like,
Speaker 1: these are my bona fides. Look at my pain, which
Speaker 1: broke my heart. And it was at such a pivotal
Speaker 1: time in her life where she is reconstructing her identity
Speaker 1: and what is her identity if she can't sing? And
Speaker 1: one of the most poignant parts of it was when
Speaker 1: she was watching John Farnham and she was clearly a
Speaker 1: John Farnham fangirl, and they clearly had an amazing mutual
Speaker 1: appreciation and respect. And when she was touring in Australia,
Speaker 1: she brought him on stage, and by then he was
Speaker 1: already a little bit frail, and we know that since
Speaker 1: then he's battled cancer and has had to have his
Speaker 1: jaw reconstructed, and presumably he can't sing anymore either. And
Speaker 1: so you say, what happens when what you are known
Speaker 1: for and what you love the most you can't do anymore,
Speaker 1: and the existential crisis that must provoke.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask if for any time during this
Speaker 2: you felt like saying to her stop trying, not stop
Speaker 2: trying to live and feel as well as you can.
Speaker 2: But clearly it's sort of all about this battle to
Speaker 2: get back on stage and do what she loves doing,
Speaker 2: because it is so clear that that is what she
Speaker 2: loves doing and she can't stop herself from singing all
Speaker 2: the time and wanting to do that. Was there any
Speaker 2: part of you that was kind of like.
Speaker 1: Darh'll give it up. It made me think of two
Speaker 1: other things we've spoken about this week. One was Joe
Speaker 1: Biden and when it's so clear from the outside that
Speaker 1: your perception of what you're capable of and what you
Speaker 1: might be capable of again is so far removed from
Speaker 1: what everybody else can see. And also Victoria on American's
Speaker 1: Sweethearts the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders, when it's so clear she's
Speaker 1: struggling to stay on the team and to live up
Speaker 1: to all the things she needs to be and you
Speaker 1: want to say, just hang up your pom poms and
Speaker 1: move on, but she can't. And I was just really
Speaker 1: struck by the poignancy and also the difference in the way,
Speaker 1: particularly Joe Bryden, who at the time of recording is
Speaker 1: still leading the party and has not sort of stepped
Speaker 1: aside and keeps saying I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine.
Speaker 1: And Selene who like wants to show the world I'm
Speaker 1: not fine but still hopes to be fine.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna come back, And there's no world in which
Speaker 3: to her she doesn't. I don't think she can live
Speaker 3: with that. That made me wonder if it's because we
Speaker 3: are hit over the head with the resilience narrative. The
Speaker 3: stories we tell and the stories we celebrate are ones
Speaker 3: where someone is told they can't but then they do,
Speaker 3: And for most people it's actually not how life goes.
Speaker 3: There's real grace in going you're not gonna sing like you.
Speaker 1: I think that while you're trying, there's hope, and I
Speaker 1: think once you're not trying anymore, that hope is extinguished.
Speaker 1: And I think that that is something that people prolong
Speaker 1: way longer than they should, because it's should's the wrong.
Speaker 1: But I think that's almost a self preservation mechanism because
Speaker 1: for Joe Biden to go I'm done, I'm out, and
Speaker 1: of course that's what he should have done a long
Speaker 1: time ago. But you have to be gentle with people,
Speaker 1: I don't mean him, but like her and not puncture
Speaker 1: her belief in her hope and go Selena never getting
Speaker 1: back on that stage.
Speaker 3: But at what cost?
Speaker 2: Well, that's interesting, yeah, because I came out of this
Speaker 2: with a lot of admiration for her, and to be
Speaker 2: very honest, I hadn't really thought very much about her
Speaker 2: at all for a long time, but a lot of
Speaker 2: admiration for her and liking her a great deal. But
Speaker 2: it's kind of easy from the outside to think, you've
Speaker 2: got all this money, you've got all this freedom. You
Speaker 2: could be in Monte Carlo, you could be just hanging
Speaker 2: around going to nice parties, wearing nice dresses. You could
Speaker 2: be like for the rest of your life, right kids
Speaker 2: are growing up, you could be fine. It's so clear
Speaker 2: that this is who she is. Well, that's what she believes.
Speaker 2: That she almost could sing before she could walk, and
Speaker 2: that if she can't sing and she can't perform. And
Speaker 2: it was also interesting she said at one point that
Speaker 2: the performance is more important than the song. So obviously
Speaker 2: it's not just the music that she loves, but it's
Speaker 2: the performance. And all the historical footage on this showed
Speaker 2: you want an amazing performer, she was. She obviously feels
Speaker 2: like without that she doesn't exist. She said, I missed
Speaker 2: the people, and I can understand, like you.
Speaker 1: Look at we talk about why to the Dallas cowboyd
Speaker 1: cheerleaders want to get up. It's like the rush of
Speaker 1: being up there and having everybody cheering for you while
Speaker 1: you do something that you love. That would be wild.
Speaker 3: I think the optics as well of this documentary for
Speaker 3: people like Celine Dion, for all of history, they disappeared.
Speaker 3: They just disappeared. And in fact, for a lot of
Speaker 3: people with chronic illness, they just fall out of your linares.
Speaker 3: They can't leave their house, and people just forget about it.
Speaker 2: And they don't want to be a drag. They're like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, I am still battling that. No, I don't
Speaker 2: have a happy narrative for you.
Speaker 3: People are impatient, people move on, And so I thought
Speaker 3: that to render that visible was incredibly brave of her,
Speaker 3: to have someone follow her around and look sickness in
Speaker 3: the face. And there was another quote by the director
Speaker 3: who said, there's such utility in staring pain in the face,
Speaker 3: and we have this instinct to look away, and you
Speaker 3: could feel it when you're watching her in that seizure
Speaker 3: like scene went on for seal. She just wanted to
Speaker 3: close your eyes. And she said the same, but she
Speaker 3: said that she's learned through filmmaking that something very human
Speaker 3: happens when you don't look away, when you actually look
Speaker 3: the person in the eye and bear witness to it.
Speaker 1: Is this the documentary making?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we could do that more with illness because we
Speaker 3: don't like looking at it. It means we're confronting our immortality.
Speaker 3: It means if she's that sick, I could be that sick.
Speaker 3: We don't like it.
Speaker 1: The same with aging.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it was very brave.
Speaker 1: It's really heartbreaking. I've been in this situation, you know,
Speaker 1: thinking about Joe Biden, thinking about Selene with the old
Speaker 1: founder of Cosmo, Helen Gurley Brown, who was literally still
Speaker 1: editing Cosmo when I first became an editor. I think
Speaker 1: she was probably in her late seventies and she was
Speaker 1: still editing that magazine in America. This is more Joe
Speaker 1: Biden comparison than a Selene comparison. But she had to
Speaker 1: get tapped on the shoulder, and everyone was trying to
Speaker 1: do that in such a gentle way. And I remember
Speaker 1: I was there during that period where they had to
Speaker 1: bring someone else in for the sake of the brand,
Speaker 1: because this woman who had been such an icon and
Speaker 1: amazing and an amazing business woman and an amazing cultural figure,
Speaker 1: had not been able to move with the times and
Speaker 1: was suddenly saying things like, oh, I think it's great
Speaker 1: if a man pinches you on the balm at work,
Speaker 1: Like I think that's really flattering. And she was saying
Speaker 1: things like women can't get AIDS, and it was becoming
Speaker 1: so awful for the brand and awful for her. And
Speaker 1: my introduction to her, you know, I sort of got
Speaker 1: to know her at that age was that she was
Speaker 1: a joke and it was only from getting to know
Speaker 1: her and understanding her legacy. I'm like, oh, you are
Speaker 1: an icon. And you compare that, say to Gloria Steinem
Speaker 1: She just turned ninety and she has been able to
Speaker 1: kind of transition. No one's really had to tap her
Speaker 1: on the shoulder. But what was heartbreaking about Helen was
Speaker 1: that she would say, like at dinners and stuff, Oh,
Speaker 1: they've put me out to pasture. They want me just
Speaker 1: out to pass you because I'm too old. And it
Speaker 1: would be like, oh, yeah, you are, but odd.
Speaker 3: But it's a question of legacy. And the same thing
Speaker 3: happens with Selaine d On. It's like, has the legacy
Speaker 3: been made? There's nothing else you could achieve. She has
Speaker 3: the most successful Las Vegas residency of all time. She
Speaker 3: made something like six hundred and eighteen million dollars. Like,
Speaker 3: where's the goal that you're you know, but it's not.
Speaker 2: The goal joy, it's the joy of doing it. And
Speaker 2: the thing about that is it's interesting. And I know
Speaker 2: this isn't necessarily as you say so Selena Jason. As
Speaker 2: the aging issue, on one hand, we think that as
Speaker 2: you age, you get wiser and you've got more experience
Speaker 2: and more knowledge, But then there's a tipping pointer at
Speaker 2: which it's like, just go away now, we don't want
Speaker 2: to look at you. We don't have any patients for
Speaker 2: listening to you. You've had your turn former sentence. It's
Speaker 2: like the argument we had about Jermaine Greer a few
Speaker 2: months ago, the idea of whether or not we have
Speaker 2: any patience to listen to people talking if they're not
Speaker 2: doing it like at top speed and incredibly sharp and articulate,
Speaker 2: as if they've got does that mean that their thoughts
Speaker 2: aren't interesting or relevant anymore. I don't mean to say
Speaker 2: this in defense of Joe Biden. I think we've prosecuted
Speaker 2: that thoroughly this week, that we all are in agreement,
Speaker 2: that you know, But it's that idea of you know,
Speaker 2: the part of me that was thinking about Celine Dion.
Speaker 2: You've done everything, you've achieved everything, you've got everything, and
Speaker 2: was enjoying sort of looking into her world. That's who
Speaker 2: she is, and I think it's almost impossible for you
Speaker 2: to accept that it's over, and why would you? It
Speaker 2: was very interesting and thought provoking, and also this is
Speaker 2: a woman who will wear shoes of any size.
Speaker 1: When a girl loves her shoes. She always make them fit.
Speaker 7: Every time I went to story and I love those shoes.
Speaker 7: They said, what size are you, ma'am? I said, no,
Speaker 7: you don't understand what size.
Speaker 5: Do you have.
Speaker 7: I'll make them work, I'll make them fit.
Speaker 1: I will walk the shoe. I walk the shoe. The shoe,
Speaker 1: don't walk me have worked.
Speaker 7: Shoes with my feet like this and sometimes like this,
Speaker 7: to hold down to them from six to ten.
Speaker 5: Give it to me.
Speaker 2: I love them. It's really thought provoking.
Speaker 3: It's really It's on Prime Video. It's called I Am
Speaker 3: Celine Dion. If you've watched it, please let us know
Speaker 3: what you think.
Speaker 2: This month, Momma Mia turned seventeen. We know birthdays aren't
Speaker 2: all that exciting when they're not well. Your birthday, they
Speaker 2: are around enough presents, So we want to take this
Speaker 2: as a chance to give you a treat and say
Speaker 2: thank you for being on the ride with us.
Speaker 1: Right now, you can get twenty dollars off a yearly
Speaker 1: Mum and Me a subscription with the.
Speaker 3: Code out Loud Birthday.
Speaker 1: The offer is.
Speaker 2: Valid for limited time only, and you'll find all the
Speaker 2: details of how to do that in the show notes.
Speaker 2: Enjoy My Friends.
Speaker 1: It's Friday. So we want to help set up your
Speaker 1: weekend with our best recommendations. Jesse, what do you recommend?
Speaker 3: I have it a bit of an unusual one this
Speaker 3: week when we're away. You know, when you're traveling, you've
Speaker 3: got a lot of breakfast, lunch and dinners and time
Speaker 3: in the car and blah blah blah. You need an activity, right,
Speaker 3: A game, A lovely game. We had different generations and
Speaker 3: all different interests. Anyway, I always do the good Weekend quiz, right,
Speaker 3: I think let's do that too. It's a real fun
Speaker 3: coming together when you've got a bit of a hodgepodge
Speaker 3: group of people. It's like, let's do the good Weekend quiz.
Speaker 3: And oh, this person I haven't spoken to has a
Speaker 3: special interest area in tennis. Great, now we have something
Speaker 3: to bond over.
Speaker 1: You find that you need to do that in a
Speaker 1: group with different people who have different specialized interests, because
Speaker 1: I lose interest if I don't know all the see.
Speaker 3: I'm not good at trivia. But I find that everyone's focused.
Speaker 2: You can get only twenty five questions.
Speaker 3: Very inclusive of everyone starts interesting discussions. Right, So I've
Speaker 3: always done the Good Weekend.
Speaker 1: What kind of questions are there?
Speaker 3: Okay, well, actually this is about the other quiz that
Speaker 3: I'm about to recommend. But what do you reckon is
Speaker 3: the most profitable flight path in the whole world?
Speaker 1: It's that kind of question Sidney Melbourne. How did you
Speaker 1: know that? Because I know I've always remembered that Sydney
Speaker 1: Melbourne is the most frequent flight path in the whole world.
Speaker 3: It's to do with cost, right, because actually quite an
Speaker 3: expensive flight for a short one, because I thought it
Speaker 3: might be New York, Paris or something like that. Apparently
Speaker 3: it's why they won't make a train. Don't quote me
Speaker 3: on that anyway. Fat love quiz. See you'd be fun anyway.
Speaker 3: So good weekend quiz. Only once a week it's not enough.
Speaker 3: I needed more quizz So there is this quiz called
Speaker 3: Gatekeepers of Knowledge. It's on Instagram and they have fifteen
Speaker 3: questions and then they have a discussion question, which is
Speaker 3: always really fun.
Speaker 1: Is this every day they do new ones?
Speaker 3: No, they do it once a week. It's quite Australian like.
Speaker 3: It's an Australian guy who does it full transparency. It's
Speaker 3: one of Luca's friends. And so we kind of started
Speaker 3: doing it as a joke and I were like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is actually.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you've disclosed that.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I didn't want to get exactly, but we
Speaker 3: just had so much fun with it. Like there was
Speaker 3: one discussion question that was like how would you prove
Speaker 3: you're not AI or something? And like just the interesting
Speaker 3: rabbit holes people went down. So much fun gives you
Speaker 3: the answers. It's all on Instagram, all on the platform.
Speaker 3: Loved it. It's called gate Keepers of Knowledge on Instagram.
Speaker 1: Holly, what's your recommendation?
Speaker 2: Okay, I've been listening to a podcast that is quite
Speaker 2: a serious one, right, I think it out Louder recommended
Speaker 2: this to me because they thought Holly were like this,
Speaker 2: and they were right. I think it actually came out
Speaker 2: last year. It's called Who Trolled Amber? And it's made
Speaker 2: by Tortoise Media, who are a British media organization who
Speaker 2: make kind of quite thinky, very well researched deep podcasts,
Speaker 2: and it's about Amber heard.
Speaker 5: This story starts with a spy, well a former spy,
Speaker 5: someone who knows how easy it is to sway opinions online.
Speaker 5: This person came to me with a strange theory.
Speaker 3: I spent a period of time investigating disinformation campaigns, so
Speaker 3: foreign influenced operations, information worker stuff.
Speaker 1: This was more akin to that what I was witnessing.
Speaker 5: Not about a stolen election or a hacking operation, but
Speaker 5: about Johnny Depp and Amber Heard.
Speaker 1: There is no way that that was all.
Speaker 5: There's no way.
Speaker 2: Specifically, it dives into whether or not the overwhelming social
Speaker 2: media campaign that came along and tore down Amber Heard
Speaker 2: during those trials were genuine or whether they were somehow
Speaker 2: like an organized campaign.
Speaker 1: I remember it was unheard of the amount of online h.
Speaker 3: She kept up in that twenty four hours.
Speaker 2: I really did. And for those who may or may
Speaker 2: not remember, is that. Originally the amber Heard Johnny Depp
Speaker 2: trial started in London. It was a defamation case against
Speaker 2: a British newspaper being brought by Johnny Depp who had
Speaker 2: called him a wife beater, and amber Heard in that
Speaker 2: case was represented by the great Australian human rights lowder
Speaker 2: Jennifer Robinson, one of my obsessions, one of my Roman empires,
Speaker 2: but she also Julias was Juliana Sange's lawyer all over
Speaker 2: the media last week. She has worked with some of
Speaker 2: the most controversial figures in the world. She said she
Speaker 2: had never seen anything like the hate that was directed
Speaker 2: at Amber Heard in that first trial when she was
Speaker 2: representing her in Britain. Just to be clear, heard one that,
Speaker 2: or rather Johnny Depp lost that. A judge in Britain
Speaker 2: did find that on several occasions, irrefutably, Johnny Depp had
Speaker 2: abused hit struck Amber Heard right, that happened, and she won.
Speaker 2: Then when the case went to the US the next year,
Speaker 2: which is when Johnny Depp was suing her for not
Speaker 2: naming him in a magazine article but saying that she
Speaker 2: was a survivor of domestic violence, That's when the circus
Speaker 2: kicked up a notch, right, and it.
Speaker 3: Was like a TikTok. I got pulled into this algorithm
Speaker 3: that wanted to convince me that Amber Heard was the
Speaker 3: baddie and that Johnny Depp was an.
Speaker 1: Even my kids got pulled into that.
Speaker 2: Oh, my kids still talk about it now. It was
Speaker 2: such an effective smear campaign against herd that I think
Speaker 2: you'd be hard pushed if you stopped a certain number
Speaker 2: of people on the street and ask them about that.
Speaker 2: They would say, she's crazy, she's deluded. He didn't do anything.
Speaker 2: The thing that's fascinating about this podcast is it starts
Speaker 2: with this case and the hosts a guy called Alexei Mostross,
Speaker 2: and he and his team start digging into because a
Speaker 2: lot of people were suspicious about this vast like social
Speaker 2: media thing.
Speaker 1: But why did everybody?
Speaker 5: Why?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: And why was it so overwhelming? And they started digging
Speaker 2: into these vast data sets of tweets about Amber Heard
Speaker 2: and alarm bell started going off almost immediately. One account,
Speaker 2: for example, like one account had tweeted anti heard messages
Speaker 2: more than three hundred and seventy thousand times, which would
Speaker 2: be in a post every two minutes, twenty four hours
Speaker 2: a day for three years.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. So it was bots.
Speaker 2: They're not people. So the whole premise of who trolled
Speaker 2: Amber and it's impeccably sourced. They talked to Gen Robinson,
Speaker 2: they talked to heaps of people. Is about was this
Speaker 2: really about Johnny Depp and number Heard or is this
Speaker 2: really a much bigger, sinister, almost test case for what
Speaker 2: happens when powerful entity wants to interfere with the public situation,
Speaker 2: whether that might be politics, whether that might be a
Speaker 2: criminal criminal trial, Maybe there might be a the US election.
Speaker 3: You might not be able to tell me this yet,
Speaker 3: But did Johnny Depp have anything.
Speaker 2: To do with that? Well, that's not entirely clear, and
Speaker 2: obviously the legals on this are considerable. I wasn't ask,
Speaker 2: but it is a very fascinating and disturbing show that
Speaker 2: tells you a lot about the way that the online.
Speaker 1: World works and how public opinion can be my and.
Speaker 2: If for bad actors, if it sounds like a lot,
Speaker 2: it kind of is. But one of the things that
Speaker 2: it just reminds us all the time, which I think
Speaker 2: we need reminding of more than ever as we head
Speaker 2: into this next phase of AI and as you say,
Speaker 2: the US election, MEA and all the things it's not organic,
Speaker 2: the stuff that we know this right, the stuff we served,
Speaker 2: the opinions we're being shown all the time, the things
Speaker 2: we'll repeat back as absolutely like very often. There are
Speaker 2: much much bigger things going on here. So who trold Amber.
Speaker 2: It's a podcast. You can find it wherever you find podcasts.
Speaker 2: If you are want to have your mind blown and
Speaker 2: feel a little bit terrified, go for it.
Speaker 1: That sounds like fun. And to be clear, when I
Speaker 1: said bad actors, I wasn't talking about an actual actor
Speaker 1: it was a bad at acting. I meant, I'm a
Speaker 1: levolent course entity. My recommendation is to do a clothes swap.
Speaker 1: We did this at MMMA Maya this week. I also
Speaker 1: have been doing it in a WhatsApp group with a
Speaker 1: couple of golf friends and we're all trying to buy
Speaker 1: less at the moment, sometimes succeeding, sometimes not. But thrifting
Speaker 1: is really making a huge comeback and what we wanted
Speaker 1: to do, particularly since we all got our colors done
Speaker 1: in here and suddenly we're all looking at our wardrobes
Speaker 1: in different ways and thinking, here are all those things
Speaker 1: I didn't I've always wondered why I didn't want to
Speaker 1: put them on. It's because they're not the good colors
Speaker 1: for me. And so we all had big wardrobe clean outs.
Speaker 1: We set up a system where everyone that brought something
Speaker 1: would get a token so they would get first DIBs.
Speaker 1: But then there were other people who didn't bring something.
Speaker 1: You can do it however you want, whether it's with girlfriends,
Speaker 1: people at work, your sports team, and it's just great.
Speaker 1: There was everything from accessories to leggings, bags, shoes, dresses.
Speaker 3: I really wanted to do it, but I felt self
Speaker 3: conscious because I didn't think that what I had to
Speaker 3: contribute was merely as good as I felt the same.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't matter. Like there's some stuff left over
Speaker 1: which we are going to donate to women's shelter and
Speaker 1: go into land.
Speaker 3: Fully and I think, not this stuff you do all
Speaker 3: the time? Can you keep doing that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I will keep doing that, So close swap. Highly
Speaker 1: recommend and my other recommendation is now you sign up
Speaker 1: to the out Louders newsletter because all our recommendations links
Speaker 1: to all the things we talk about, behind the scenes
Speaker 1: stories that we've talked about during the week, they'll all
Speaker 1: be in there. There is a link to sign up
Speaker 1: to the newsletter. It's free. In the show notes.
Speaker 8: High out Louders, it's em Vernon here with a quick
Speaker 8: record and back in your ears. I kind of shiving
Speaker 8: my way back in the podcast when everyone else left.
Speaker 8: And this is one for the single girls. Oh if
Speaker 8: you're not a single girl but have friends who are single,
Speaker 8: this is for you as well. If you live in Sydney,
Speaker 8: there is an event that we're hosting as Mama Mia
Speaker 8: with the Sydney Swans. It's called Match Day Mingle and
Speaker 8: it's presented by Listerine. The idea of this event actually
Speaker 8: started from where all good things start. A TikTok our
Speaker 8: social team went to a Swan's game recently and they
Speaker 8: pretty much just like filmed themselves asking them who attended
Speaker 8: the game if they're single or not. That video went
Speaker 8: absolutely viral. It got picked up on TV. It got
Speaker 8: over a million views on TikTok. So we thought we'd
Speaker 8: formalize it because it seems like the girlies want to
Speaker 8: go to the Sydney Swans game. If that's you, I
Speaker 8: highly encourage you to come along.
Speaker 2: I'll be there.
Speaker 8: We get to meet, we get to hang. It's going
Speaker 8: to be held on July thirteenth. If you come, you
Speaker 8: can watch the whole game with us. You can have
Speaker 8: a drink, you can have some food. There's even going
Speaker 8: to be DJ's. It's going to be like a proper
Speaker 8: party sesh. So come along. It's going to be at
Speaker 8: the SEG on Saturday. We will put a link in
Speaker 8: our show notes for where you can buy tickets.
Speaker 3: What unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively for Mum and Maya subscribers. Follow the
Speaker 3: link in the show notes to get us in your
Speaker 3: ears five days a week, and a huge thank you
Speaker 3: to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 2: Okay, this is the part of the show obviously where
Speaker 2: we share a little more from our personal lives. We're
Speaker 2: not talking about big picture things, We're talking about little
Speaker 2: picture things. My worst last week.
Speaker 5: I was sick.
Speaker 2: And I know that often our sicknesses are very sicknesses
Speaker 2: are our worst. It's kind of obvious.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very revealing. It's revealing about health, though, isn't it.
Speaker 1: It's only your best you get a week exactly, that's true.
Speaker 1: That was her best one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did take a couple of days off work,
Speaker 2: as you would know if you listen to out Loud,
Speaker 2: because I wasn't on it. But the thing about it
Speaker 2: is so I got what we think is probably a migraine.
Speaker 2: And I have had dalliances with migraines before, but I'd
Speaker 2: never experienced anything like this. I was flattened for a
Speaker 2: few days. But also it may not have been a migraine.
Speaker 2: It's one of those things where you know, people don't
Speaker 2: really know what it is. But basically I had a
Speaker 2: really debilitating headache for a while. I felt nauseous, all
Speaker 2: those things, and it could have been hormonal, It could
Speaker 2: have been all that stuff. But also it made me
Speaker 2: remember the lesson that we always forget right, which is
Speaker 2: that I think I'm really tired, Like I think that
Speaker 2: we have had an enormous few months, like in terms
Speaker 2: of work and all doing things. I love love, love,
Speaker 2: love love out loud the Tall launching mid When we
Speaker 2: got back from Tall, you got sick, mea fell in
Speaker 2: a heap for.
Speaker 1: A few days, for a week.
Speaker 3: Is it like when the doctor asked, Siket stressed, if
Speaker 3: you've had much on and then you kind of have
Speaker 3: to go. It's like a flash of the last few months.
Speaker 1: There was that.
Speaker 2: But then also in any time that I haven't been
Speaker 2: doing that, I'm trying to finish my book. I'm on
Speaker 2: rewrites of my book. So like every minute of every
Speaker 2: day is work of some kind and again I love
Speaker 2: it all. Like you don't have to disclaim you to
Speaker 2: the way they sound like a wind, Joe, Well you
Speaker 2: are owing, that's a stated fact.
Speaker 1: But like you've also been driving up and down the coast,
Speaker 1: the community, your dad.
Speaker 2: There's a lot going on, and then there's just normal life, kids, family,
Speaker 2: all the things and The thing is that's interesting. Is
Speaker 2: it reminded me that a few weeks ago I did
Speaker 2: that interview with Catherine May about burnout. She said, if
Speaker 2: you don't address trying to make life a bit more
Speaker 2: manageable and taking time to look after yourself and all
Speaker 2: those things, burnout will come and find you. Oh yes,
Speaker 2: it will come and knock on your head. In this case, wow, possibly,
Speaker 2: I mean, but it could have been many other things.
Speaker 2: It'll come and knock on you, and it will make
Speaker 2: you lie down. And I know it sounds woo woo health.
Speaker 3: Nice people are saying.
Speaker 2: But it's like it's like a reminder and a lesson
Speaker 2: that I often don't learn. Is I'm like, it's fine,
Speaker 2: it's fine, Like I can do all these things when
Speaker 2: this is finished, when this busy time is over, I'll
Speaker 2: have a break, I'll do whatever. But it's like, ultimately
Speaker 2: you can only do so much, and burnout does get
Speaker 2: to us all in the end.
Speaker 3: So I think it was one of those keeps trying
Speaker 3: to teach moments and all of us the same lesson.
Speaker 1: Sounds a bit victim blame me, blaming yourself for your headache.
Speaker 1: Sometimes headaches just come.
Speaker 2: Yes, And in fact, the other thing that's been interesting
Speaker 2: is that because the headache lasted a long time, still
Speaker 2: here a little bit, and don't at me out loud,
Speaker 2: as I've had brain scams and things like, I'm not
Speaker 2: you know, I've been trying, like I've had acupuncture. I've
Speaker 2: had cops stuck on me. Oh I love how the
Speaker 2: like I'm doing all that shit.
Speaker 1: Have you tried manifesting to not have a headache and
Speaker 1: I'm manifesting manifest harder And I'm like, and all the
Speaker 1: people I've been talking to me not lately are like meditate, meditates,
Speaker 1: So I'm like, I'm gonna have to stop.
Speaker 2: Meditating my headache away.
Speaker 1: Anyway.
Speaker 2: That was my worst is being reminded I am not,
Speaker 2: in fact superhuman, as none of us are. My best
Speaker 2: is very, very frivolous. My best is that one day
Speaker 2: this week I came to work better, obviously wearing double dead.
Speaker 3: I nearly did that the other day today.
Speaker 2: So many compliments in the air, something something.
Speaker 3: If you would make if me, you would make fun
Speaker 3: of me, so I didn't. But I will have.
Speaker 1: Out wardrobes gone into sink. I have like.
Speaker 2: Because different shades, so well, I've got this outfit I've
Speaker 2: worn a couple of times, because you know me, I
Speaker 2: don't have that many things that I wear all the time.
Speaker 2: I'm a bit of a uniform person. My dark denim
Speaker 2: Karina jeans that I love and this dark denim shirt
Speaker 2: that I got from somewhere, short sleeved shirt. They're not
Speaker 2: meant to be the same, but they are almost the same,
Speaker 2: and whenever I wear them together, maybe with a colorful shoe.
Speaker 2: I was trying hard this day because I was like
Speaker 2: wanting to feel good after feeling sick. So I actually
Speaker 2: wore gold shoes and sparkly socks to get the sparkly
Speaker 2: So they're old and I think they were from top shops.
Speaker 1: What kind of sparkly socks do you want?
Speaker 3: I just want like a like a.
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Spark packs? You want butter sock?
Speaker 2: Anyway, I wore double denim, and I got so many
Speaker 2: compliments that day that I was like, double denim is
Speaker 2: where it's frickin' at. I'm gonna wear double deadim all
Speaker 2: winter locker. Do it have different shades?
Speaker 1: Let's do it?
Speaker 2: Tell me? Is it better to do double denim of
Speaker 2: different shades or try and match the shades because I
Speaker 2: do both either. Well, I mean I don't do both.
Speaker 2: I've only been matching my shade.
Speaker 1: I think double Denim's just outstanding since Justin Timberlake and
Speaker 1: Britney Spears wore it to the VMA they did double
Speaker 1: double that, they did quadruple Dennil, I'm going to do it.
Speaker 1: I think, well, we should all do it on Monday.
Speaker 1: We'll take photo double it in Monday.
Speaker 2: Mia.
Speaker 1: My worst is that I have been spilling things a
Speaker 1: lot this week. I am a spiller.
Speaker 3: I think that's your burnoutside. Yeah, I don't think you
Speaker 3: burn out.
Speaker 2: It's like how I used to fall over all the
Speaker 2: Remember how I used to fall over all the time.
Speaker 1: I think you could be right. So this week alone,
Speaker 1: I have knocked over a full cup of tea in
Speaker 1: my daughter's bed, fortunately not mine, because I was just
Speaker 1: hanging out in her room. She's away, hanging out in
Speaker 1: her room because.
Speaker 2: She's away, So you know, I would hate that if
Speaker 2: I was with my boundary.
Speaker 1: She's not listening. I know she doesn't like it. She
Speaker 1: doesn't even like outside clothes. You're not allowed to wear
Speaker 1: your outside clothes sitting on her bed anyway, I've been
Speaker 1: like luxuriating and having her bedroom to myself, because you know,
Speaker 1: when you when you live with someone, give up your
Speaker 1: own room. Don't like that, so I've been using her
Speaker 1: room anyway. I knocked over a full cup of and
Speaker 1: you know how big my cups of tea are, full
Speaker 1: cup of tea on the bed. Two days later, I
Speaker 1: was leaving for work early, leaned over the bed to
Speaker 1: kiss my husband goodbye, knocked over a full cup of
Speaker 1: tea from the night before that was cold, that was
Speaker 1: beside the bed, onto the carp And then yesterday I
Speaker 1: was going to put the milk back in the fridge,
Speaker 1: dropped it on the rug in the kitchen, and of
Speaker 1: course I hadn't put the lid on properly because I'm
Speaker 1: not very good with that stuff. Full bottle of liter
Speaker 1: of milk all over, spilt milk. And this morning, Jays,
Speaker 1: I wonder what I'm going to spill today. And then
Speaker 1: I was drinking my smoothie and I spilt it on
Speaker 1: my nose. I don't know how I even did that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, if my spill is my tail, that's that.
Speaker 1: My best of the week is I've got a little
Speaker 1: surprise for you guys. You wouldn't think it's my best
Speaker 1: of the week because it in a bit of a
Speaker 1: sad story, but it actually has just given me so
Speaker 1: many lolls. Here's a little voice note from someone who's
Speaker 1: going to tell you what my best of the week.
Speaker 4: Was, Polly and Jess. It's Julia Bird. Here. I am
Speaker 4: doing a public confession because I fucked up, and Maya
Speaker 4: has asked me to do it. It's kind of, I think,
Speaker 4: like putting my head in the stocks. I had an
Speaker 4: event to go to. I had gold boots. I was
Speaker 4: trying to work out what to wear with it, and
Speaker 4: who else would you think of when you think gold
Speaker 4: and sparkly?
Speaker 5: Yah.
Speaker 4: I texted her and she's so gorgeous. She dropped around
Speaker 4: a whole bunch of her clothes and there was one
Speaker 4: coat I was particularly fond of. Or it to the
Speaker 4: event is fantastic and Mia goes, just wear whatever you
Speaker 4: like until we see each other again. And so last weekend, faithfully,
Speaker 4: I was going to a dinner party and I threw
Speaker 4: it over this this long goldpread coat, over this black
Speaker 4: dress I was wearing. Went to dinner halfway through a
Speaker 4: goat of the bathroom and then I'm sitting there and
Speaker 4: I smell smoke and I look around and the coat
Speaker 4: is on fire. Basically my bob is on fire. And
Speaker 4: I stand up and its flames are coming off it.
Speaker 4: And I had to put on the tiles and stomp
Speaker 4: on it. And there in the ash was me as
Speaker 4: trusted me. I'mgoing And so I was mortified. I went home.
Speaker 4: I googled it. I couldn't find a replacement. I had
Speaker 4: to confess to me out and I said, mate, I've
Speaker 4: done something really bad and I'm literally having kittens and
Speaker 4: I stopped it up and I'm trying to find a
Speaker 4: replacement coat. And she goes, did you lose it? And
Speaker 4: I'm like, no, I said it on fire.
Speaker 3: Of course your coat was flammable.
Speaker 1: Of course I have to say. It's one of the
Speaker 1: most expensive coats. Oh no, it's the one you love.
Speaker 1: Love that it's beautiful. Can you do a bad How
Speaker 1: could you have possibly appeared.
Speaker 3: That photo of it? And can you put it on
Speaker 3: the Outliers instogram so that we will say.
Speaker 1: Because it is like beautiful, like I love it. It
Speaker 1: has made me laugh so much because I said to Jules, Babe,
Speaker 1: if you didn't like it, you could have just said
Speaker 1: something on fire, and I'm like, how are you going
Speaker 1: to return it to me in an urn?
Speaker 3: No, maybe this is an elaborate roost. She's actually stolen
Speaker 3: it and she doesn't want to give it back. And
Speaker 3: what do you say? You don't want to say you
Speaker 3: lost it, so you say I accidentally said it on fire.
Speaker 3: This is a very tall tale.
Speaker 2: If she was seen out in it somewhere.
Speaker 1: So true. She's so mortified, and it just I just said,
Speaker 1: here's your penance. You have to make her voicemail. You
Speaker 1: have to confess. And I'm playing it in the podcast.
Speaker 3: What I feel like this is a dilemma because it's like, Okay,
Speaker 3: if you burn a friend's coat, what is.
Speaker 2: Your what do you?
Speaker 8: I like that?
Speaker 7: She?
Speaker 3: You know you should try and replace it. It doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: No, you can't find it anymore.
Speaker 3: So she's just what indebted to you for all of eternity?
Speaker 2: She just have to come round and clean up me
Speaker 2: as spilt smoothies for maybe a decade.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just to wear it. I'm going to buy a
Speaker 1: hair shirt for her away. Oh my goodness, you probably
Speaker 1: one of those. Probably a hairshirt, sparkly hairshit. That has
Speaker 1: been my best because it's just been so funny, like
Speaker 1: of all the things like how about could it be
Speaker 1: if you've stained it or maybe you've lost it left
Speaker 1: it in an uber and she goes, I said it
Speaker 1: on fire.
Speaker 2: I must have been candles.
Speaker 3: My worst is that I've been trying to get back
Speaker 3: into exercise since I was away, and I booked into
Speaker 3: a pilates class this week. And you know when you
Speaker 3: organize your whole day around, like Luca's gonna get home
Speaker 3: and I'm going to do the handover and then I
Speaker 3: can get out for just one hour and do this
Speaker 3: class that I really really want to do. I've joined
Speaker 3: this new gym so excited I leave. I like do
Speaker 3: my like fast walk to the gym. There's a bit
Speaker 3: of an issue with the thing to swipe in, run up,
Speaker 3: open the door, and the person who's running the class
Speaker 3: just looks at me and goes the class has started,
Speaker 3: and then close the door in my face. And then
Speaker 3: I looked at the time and I was one minute.
Speaker 1: Oh, no, one minute late? Was it a Dallas cowboy
Speaker 1: cheerleaders class run.
Speaker 3: By Kelly Kelly?
Speaker 2: And you haven't got makeup?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you look.
Speaker 3: Like a foot and your nails a quite shit was
Speaker 3: so upset. So I was like, okay, the only option
Speaker 3: here is to go into the change room and cry
Speaker 3: because I just I felt so like vulnerable.
Speaker 1: If you are holy in my age, you would say,
Speaker 1: I need to speak to the manager. People have a
Speaker 1: feedback for do you have a feedback forward?
Speaker 3: How much it costs to do an exercise class in
Speaker 3: this day and age? Too much? And I think they
Speaker 3: give you a little thing if you don't make it.
Speaker 3: Then I was like, well, I am at the gym
Speaker 3: as a class inner gym, so I was like, technically
Speaker 3: I could exercise in another way, but I was meant
Speaker 3: to do my pilates class.
Speaker 2: If you're psyched up for a class, you can't just
Speaker 2: suddenly get on the rower.
Speaker 3: It's not it doesn't work like that one minute.
Speaker 1: When you just go to all spoil.
Speaker 3: This always has ruined to me.
Speaker 1: Its ruined, it's ruined. I can't.
Speaker 3: It was so sad. My best is my Saturday night.
Speaker 3: I haven't told you about my Saturday night. I went
Speaker 3: out out out I'm going to go out with Okay,
Speaker 3: So two of my very good friends, their group of mates,
Speaker 3: run this event called Show Us Your Tips, which is
Speaker 3: like a queer event it's body and sex positive and
Speaker 3: basically it's local professionals that perform right pole dancing, but
Speaker 3: they are naked. What yes, the boobies out, bits, out,
Speaker 3: all of it out, whole things naked.
Speaker 1: What other things could you do?
Speaker 3: And they perform it like they are amazing and like
Speaker 3: it's not just like it's like a strip tease. No, no,
Speaker 3: definitely not just me. There was a nude model and
Speaker 3: everyone had to draw them. There was like a queer
Speaker 3: pole dancing. I love watching pot you never.
Speaker 1: Get pole danced.
Speaker 3: Amazing it was to watch people do it, and they
Speaker 3: came out at the beginning that it was hosted by
Speaker 3: this incredible person who was like two rules. Everybody is
Speaker 3: beautiful body, so we don't body shame here, and bodies
Speaker 3: of all different shapes and sizes. There was no preference.
Speaker 3: There was so much diversity. And the second thing was
Speaker 3: don't touch like the person walking around about photos. No photos,
Speaker 3: so they put little stickers on the back of your
Speaker 3: phone camera so that you can't go up and just
Speaker 3: take a photo of surptitiously.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So yeah, no photos and just like respect and blah
Speaker 3: blah blah. And when you buy a ticket you also
Speaker 3: get like these tokens so that you can tip people
Speaker 3: as they're like dancing, So the shows your tips essentially
Speaker 3: like pay the pay the talent.
Speaker 1: But I just thought, were there men and women?
Speaker 3: Men and women?
Speaker 1: Can I ask about the nude pole dancing? Do you
Speaker 1: not then look up into someone's anus and vagina so closely,
Speaker 1: so close up into their aus?
Speaker 3: I think the person on the pole may have kept
Speaker 3: their G string on, but I just couldn't stop staring.
Speaker 2: You know, a very long time ago, I was at
Speaker 2: a not very radical and exciting pole dancing night at
Speaker 2: some awful strip club in Melbourne. I don't know where
Speaker 2: I found myself there. I was in my twenties, and
Speaker 2: these things happened, and.
Speaker 1: Thought you meant like a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2: The image I will never get out of my mind
Speaker 2: is after the pole dance had finished, a little man
Speaker 2: came on with a spray bottle and a little wipey cloth.
Speaker 2: Obviously you have to for obvious reasons. It just shutters
Speaker 2: any glad.
Speaker 3: I want that too, I wanted, and I thought, are
Speaker 3: they living it up for something? What are they loved that?
Speaker 3: But the reason I loved it so much was so
Speaker 3: they said the thing that being about don't touch, and
Speaker 3: I just thought we've had heaps of conversations about sexual
Speaker 3: assault and everything. On this show, everyone was just cool,
Speaker 3: like you can walk out cool with your boobs out
Speaker 3: and no one touches you because we're all grown ups
Speaker 3: and we actually know how to restrain ourselves.
Speaker 1: Be cool.
Speaker 3: The second thing was that in the queer community, and
Speaker 3: I was very much like, there is an ally, but
Speaker 3: the history of these communities and sex workers and homophobia,
Speaker 3: what some of these people have experienced is really really tough.
Speaker 3: And to feel like the pride in the room and
Speaker 3: the freedom of it was just so much fun. Like
Speaker 3: I loved, loved being a part of it, and it
Speaker 3: was just so entertaining and I just thought this was
Speaker 3: really cool, amazing. Yeah, it was really really cool. I
Speaker 3: was out till so late and then I probably drank
Speaker 3: a little bit too much, but then I just slept
Speaker 3: off my hangover and I haven't done that since before
Speaker 3: and I was born. So it was just a very
Speaker 3: that's a milestone.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I went out and I didn't think about that.
Speaker 3: I was just there looking at the boobies and the
Speaker 3: willies and all that.
Speaker 1: Loved it.
Speaker 5: Loved it.
Speaker 2: That's the best best forrase.
Speaker 1: That's so good. That should we That also makes sense
Speaker 1: because on Sunday when all our kids are away, this
Speaker 1: is one of the best Our kids are away and
Speaker 1: we've sent our dogs away. Jason and I have an
Speaker 1: empty house. We don't remember. We just are like giggling.
Speaker 1: We're just like since when giggling all the time. We
Speaker 1: just got all this freedom. We sent the dogs away
Speaker 1: so it would be like a proper experience. We're having
Speaker 1: a sleep in on Sunday morning. Didn't have to get
Speaker 1: up early to let the dogs out. Luca.
Speaker 3: If you, Luna, someone look after this baby.
Speaker 1: It's never over.
Speaker 3: I don't think Jesse's getting out of here today.
Speaker 1: Jesse's very much asleep. Have about your Grandma time.
Speaker 2: If you're sad that the week is over, do not worry.
Speaker 2: We have plenty more episodes for you to listen to.
Speaker 2: If you missed yesterday's subs episode, Oh, we talked about
Speaker 2: Jesse's therapy dilemma. Here's a little bit of what we said.
Speaker 3: Recently, someone very clever said stress is actually the denial
Speaker 3: of emotion, not the emotion itself. So I wish it
Speaker 3: was more My voice but I hear my psychologist in
Speaker 3: my head a lot before I make certain decisions. This
Speaker 3: inner child work, which sounds really woo woo, but basically, like,
Speaker 3: listen to the deepest part of you that's saying no,
Speaker 3: I don't want to do that. No, I'm tired, No
Speaker 3: I'm sick, No I want to hang out with my daughter.
Speaker 3: The more you reject that like, it's quite fracturing.
Speaker 2: We'll put a link in the show notes who that episode.
Speaker 5: That's it.
Speaker 2: That's all we've got time for today and this week.
Speaker 2: Massive thank you to all of you the out louders
Speaker 2: for listening today's show. We'll be back in your ears
Speaker 2: next week. This episode was produced by amaling Ga Zillas.
Speaker 2: The assistant producer is Chylie Blackman, with audio production from
Speaker 2: Leah Porge's.
Speaker 3: Thank You, I'd Loveless and Goodbye Bye.
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Muma Mia subscribers listening. If you
Speaker 1: love the show and want to support us as well,
Speaker 1: subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
Speaker 1: to do so. There is a link in the episode
Speaker 1: description