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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Good Morning from the Quiki. I'm Taylor Strano. The show

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Speaker 2: that gave us smising, Tira mail and some of reality

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Speaker 2: TV's most unhinged moments, is back under the microscope this

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Speaker 2: week Reality Check Inside America's Next Top Model has dropped.

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Speaker 2: But does a three part Netflix doco actually make up

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Speaker 2: for what happened on set twenty years ago or just

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Speaker 2: repackage the trauma for a new binge. Today we unpack

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Speaker 2: the law of ANTM, some of its biggest controversies, and

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Speaker 2: what the docu series does and doesn't take responsibility for. First,

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Speaker 2: a look at the news headlines with Claire Murphy for Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: February seventeen.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Taylor, Thirty four Australians released from a camp holding

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Speaker 1: families of suspected Islamic State militants in northern Syria have

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Speaker 1: returned to the detention center due to technical reasons. They

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Speaker 1: were put on small buses for DEMANDSCUS ahead of their

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Speaker 1: departure from the country with a military escort. However, the

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Speaker 1: Australian families returned to Roch camp shortly after, reportedly told

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Speaker 1: that the Syrian government would not allow them to leave.

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Speaker 1: Assyrian official has said it's purely a procedural issue to

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Speaker 1: be resolved. Today Roj camp holds more than two thousand

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Speaker 1: people from forty different nationalities, the majority of them women

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Speaker 1: and children. Thousands of people believed to be linked to

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Speaker 1: Islamic State militants have been held at Roj and a

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Speaker 1: second camp al whole since the Jihades group was driven

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Speaker 1: from its final territorial foothold in Syria in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: The Australian government said in a statement that it will

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Speaker 1: not repatriate people from Syria, saying our security agencies have

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Speaker 1: been monitoring and continue to monitor the situation in Syria

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Speaker 1: to ensure they're prepared for any Australian seeking to return

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Speaker 1: to Australia, explaining that people in this cohort need to

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Speaker 1: know that if they have committed a crime and if

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Speaker 1: they return to Australia, they will be met with the

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Speaker 1: full force of the law, and that the safety of

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Speaker 1: Australians and the protection of Australia's national interests remained the

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Speaker 1: overriding priority. The Kremlin has rejected accusations from five European

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Speaker 1: countries that they killed jailed opposition leader Alexi Navalni with

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Speaker 1: toxin from a poisonous frog. Nevalni, President Vladimir Putin's most

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Speaker 1: prominent domestic critic, died on February sixteen, twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: in the Polar warf Penal colony north of the Arctic Circle.

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Speaker 1: He was forty seven. His death, which the Russian States

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Speaker 1: said was from natural causes, occurred a month before Putin

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Speaker 1: was reelected for a fifth term in a landslide vote

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Speaker 1: which Western nations said was neither free nor fair due

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Speaker 1: to censorship and a crackdown on opponents. Britain, France, Germany, Sweden,

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Speaker 1: and the Netherlands said on Saturday that analysis of samples

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Speaker 1: from Nvalni's body had conclusively confirmed the presence of epibatidine,

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Speaker 1: a toxin found in poisoned dart frogs in South America

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Speaker 1: and not found naturally in Russia. Russian authorities have in

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Speaker 1: the past rejected claims that they had used poison to

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Speaker 1: kill those who speak out against the regime, including a

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen incident that saw former Russian agents Sergei Scripple

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Speaker 1: and his daughter died from novachok poisoning, and the death

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Speaker 1: of dissident Alexander Litvinenko in two thousand and six, who

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Speaker 1: drank tea lace with radioactive polonium. Julia Navalna, Navanni's widow,

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Speaker 1: who had alleged from the outset that her husband had

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Speaker 1: been murdered by the Russian state, said on Monday that

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Speaker 1: the findings provided the necessary proof to back her stance,

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Speaker 1: promising to now also attain justice. US media are reporting

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Speaker 1: that the investigation into the disappearance of TV show hosts

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Speaker 1: Savannah Guthrie's mother is now leaning away from suspecting family members.

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Speaker 1: After multiple searches of Savannah's sister Annie's home and speculation

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Speaker 1: her husband was somehow involved in the abduction of the

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Speaker 1: eighty four year old, the investigation has now moved away

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Speaker 1: from that theory. They also no longer believed that two

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Speaker 1: men who were taken in for questioning last week, were involved. However,

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Speaker 1: they say that no one has been officially cleared while

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Speaker 1: the investigation is ongoing. Nancy Guthrie went missing more than

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Speaker 1: two weeks ago, believed to have been taken from her

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Speaker 1: home in the early hours of February. First blood found

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Speaker 1: on the front porch was a match for the grandmother.

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Speaker 1: Ransom demand deadlines have come and gone, despite the family

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Speaker 1: saying they're willing to pay. DNA that does not match

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Speaker 1: Nancy or anyone she's close to has been found out

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Speaker 1: the house. Police also released footage from her ring camera

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Speaker 1: showing a masked man seeming to tamper with the camera

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Speaker 1: the day she went missing. Authority say a glove was

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Speaker 1: also found not far from Nancy's home which appears to

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Speaker 1: match that worn by the man on the camera. They've

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Speaker 1: been able to extract DNA from it and have submitted

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Speaker 1: it to the national database to see if they can

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Speaker 1: find a match ed Sheeran has told the crowd in

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Speaker 1: Sydney that he no longer has a mobile phone because

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Speaker 1: of the lawsuit brought against him. In twenty fifteen. Sheeran

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Speaker 1: was sued by the family of Marvin Gaye's co songwriter

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Speaker 1: Ed Townsend's family, who accused the singer of copying the

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Speaker 1: hit Let's Get It On for his tune Thinking Out Loud.

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Speaker 1: Cheron won the case, but explained to the Sydney crowd

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Speaker 1: that he was forced to hand over all his electronic

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Speaker 1: devices to the police and was relieved there was nothing

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Speaker 1: weird on them, but that it had motivated him to

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Speaker 1: turn his phone off during his Australian tour that year

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Speaker 1: and just never to it back on again. He explained

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Speaker 1: that he'd had to turn it back on at one

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Speaker 1: stage and said it was like a time machine, the

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Speaker 1: story leading Sheeran into his song Old Phone.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Clan. Next, unpacking the new America's Next Top Model

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Speaker 2: Docky series.

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Speaker 3: You want to be on tough.

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Speaker 2: Those other words famously arted by supermodel Tyra Banks at

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Speaker 2: the start of every episode of America's Next Top Model

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Speaker 2: burned into the collective consciousness of millennials everywhere. When America's

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Speaker 2: Next Top Model launched back in two thousand and three,

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Speaker 2: it sold itself as a classic Cinderella narrative, Tyra Banks

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Speaker 2: opening the doors of high fashion to real girls via

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Speaker 2: a reality competition. Over twenty four cycles, it became a

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Speaker 2: pop culture juggernaut, airing in more than one hundred and

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Speaker 2: eighty countries, spinning off international versions and giving us iconic lines,

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Speaker 2: meltdowns and makeovers that still go viral. On TikTok, I.

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Speaker 1: Was Ruining for you, We are Ruining for you out

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Speaker 1: Dare You.

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Speaker 2: Each season followed a pretty simple formula. A group of

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Speaker 2: mostly very young women living together, doing outrageous photoshoots and

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Speaker 2: runway challenges, then facing the judging panel when one by

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Speaker 2: one contestants would be sent home, their dreams of becoming

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Speaker 2: a supermodel crushed. It promised industry access, contracts, agency deals,

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Speaker 2: magazine covers, but also thrived on manufactured drama, exhaustion and

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Speaker 2: putting contestants in physical or emotional danger for ratings. The

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Speaker 2: controversy stacked up. There were multiple race swap and biracial

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Speaker 2: photoshoots where contestants were put in dark makeup to portray

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Speaker 2: ethnicities that well weren't theirs.

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Speaker 3: Black girl, the nerves child, You're a jackson.

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Speaker 2: There were makeovers that involve shaving heads or altering features.

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Speaker 2: You're not ready to cut your hair? Wow? You know,

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Speaker 2: I really don't have time for this today, So you

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Speaker 2: just got to keep my Former models have also talked

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Speaker 2: about what we didn't see, strict food control, sleep deprivation,

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Speaker 2: isolation from family, and what some have described as psychological warfare,

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Speaker 2: all against a backdrop of constant commentary on their weight, skin, hair,

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Speaker 2: and marketability, which is where reality Check Inside America's Next

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Speaker 2: Top Model comes in dropping into your Netflix library this week.

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Speaker 2: It's a three part Docky series with interviews from Tyra Banks,

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Speaker 2: creative director j Manuel Runway, coach j Alexander, photographer Nigel Baker,

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Speaker 2: and big name former contestants like Tiffany Richardson. The trailer

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Speaker 2: frames itself as the definitive must watch look at how

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Speaker 2: a glamorous launchpad turned into a monster, and ask the

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Speaker 2: question how far are we willing to go for entertainment?

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Speaker 3: I knew I went too far. It was very very

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Speaker 3: intense flash. But you guys, we're demanding it.

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Speaker 2: So does reality check actually clean up Antm's legacy or

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Speaker 2: just heelp us see clearer how messed up it was?

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Speaker 2: A resident reality TV expert Entertainment reported Tara Watson has

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Speaker 2: watched the doco and is here to give us the

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Speaker 2: real reality. Jack Tara on the spectrum of early two

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Speaker 2: thousands media, where did ANTM sit?

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Speaker 3: It's like classic early two thousands reality TV, where it

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Speaker 3: very much was like the Wild Wild West where they

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Speaker 3: were very experimental. This is the era where a show

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Speaker 3: like The Swan could exist. If you know what that

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Speaker 3: show is, which is a show literally casting people call

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Speaker 3: like the Ugly Ducklings and then giving them enough surgery

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Speaker 3: to become beautiful. So this was an era where kind

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Speaker 3: of anything goes and they were pushing the limits and

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Speaker 3: America's Next Top Model definitely did that.

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Speaker 2: We've touched on some of them, but to you, one

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Speaker 2: of the biggest controversies from this show, because it feels

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Speaker 2: that it's quite a feutal unpack there is.

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Speaker 3: It was a very diverse show, especially of its time,

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Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean and it didn't have a lot

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Speaker 3: of issues. So there was this race swapping challenge which

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Speaker 3: actually happened twice on the show, where they literally did

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Speaker 3: blackface for these photo shoots on white models. And then

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Speaker 3: there was one contestant names Ebonie. I actually remember her well.

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Speaker 3: She's from cycle one. They call them cycles for each season,

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Speaker 3: so she was on cycle one and she spoke about

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Speaker 3: her experience of Tyra Banks referring to her skin as ashy,

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Speaker 3: which is a really racially loaded term, and she also

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Speaker 3: spoke to her about her edit being very much like

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Speaker 3: the angry black stereotype. So there was a lot of

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Speaker 3: not so nice things happening is as far as phrase goes.

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Speaker 3: And then of course there was rampant body shaping for

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Speaker 3: a show that did kind of platform itself as being

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Speaker 3: quite diverse as far as like the body shapes that

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Speaker 3: it did cast, there was still like some absolutely disgusting examples.

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Speaker 3: There was one with this model Kenya, who throughout her

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Speaker 3: whole season she was body shamed, especially by one judge

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Speaker 3: Janis Dickinson. And she even was cast in one of

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Speaker 3: the photo shoots as gluttony when they did like the

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Speaker 3: Seven Deadly Sins and she was surrounded by food. In

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Speaker 3: another photo shoot she was cast as an elephant. So

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Speaker 3: they very much was like almost taunting her and her

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Speaker 3: weight throughout her season. But I would say the biggest

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Speaker 3: controversy that's maybe the darkest of the whole documentary is

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Speaker 3: this one about this model Shandy. Shandy was like a big,

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Speaker 3: big character on Cycle two. One of her storylines towards

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Speaker 3: the end of the season was in Milan where she

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Speaker 3: cheated on her partner and they actually played the phone

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Speaker 3: call where she told her partner that she cheated and

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Speaker 3: they played it and he abused her on the phone

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Speaker 3: and she was crying. So we have interviews with Shandy

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Speaker 3: in his documentary where she kind of explains to what

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Speaker 3: actually happened, and it's horrific. She pretty much says the

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Speaker 3: day of the cheating, she hadn't eaten the whole day,

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Speaker 3: and then all these Italian men came over and she

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Speaker 3: got black out drunk because she hadn't eaten, and what

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Speaker 3: happened was not consensual. She was black out and it

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Speaker 3: was still filmed, and she is horrified that no one

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Speaker 3: intervened considering, you know what state she was in. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's a full subspectrum of disturbing moments that are kind

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Speaker 3: of outlaid in this documentary and it's really really upsetting

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Speaker 3: just from.

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Speaker 2: The list of things that you rattled off there. It

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Speaker 2: does make the mind wonder how was this ever allowed

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Speaker 2: to be broadcast? And I know that when it comes

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Speaker 2: to reality TV sometimes things go off the rails. In

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Speaker 2: the new docu series, there's obviously an opportunity to address

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Speaker 2: all of these bits and pieces, and it's pretty significant.

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Speaker 2: They've got the four sort of original hosts in their

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Speaker 2: providing commentary as part of the narrative, including Tyra Banks herself.

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Speaker 2: Do they take responsibility though? Is this a series that's

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Speaker 2: been made to really pinpoint some of those controversies, address

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Speaker 2: them and reflect upon them.

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Speaker 1: Yes to no.

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Speaker 3: I was surprised so one of the experts, J Manuel,

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Speaker 3: he was really quite accountable. She admitted he tried to

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Speaker 3: leave the show several times because things that were really

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Speaker 3: crossing the line for him, and he spoke about specific challenges,

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Speaker 3: including the race swapping one that he was like, I

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Speaker 3: did not want to be a part of this. I

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Speaker 3: knew it was wrong. Tyra is complicated in her reaction.

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Speaker 3: I think some of her reactions are very much like, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: that's how it was done in those days. You know,

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Speaker 3: we were just trying to get ratings. We had to

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Speaker 3: keep surprising people, so that's why we did these shopping things.

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Speaker 3: Occasionally she might have a little bit of regrets and

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Speaker 3: say sorry, but I'd say for the most part she

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Speaker 3: wasn't super accountable, which is odd because she agreed to

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Speaker 3: do this documentary, so you would think she would agree

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Speaker 3: with a bit of introspection on like what part she played.

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Speaker 3: But I'd say overall, she doesn't come across great.

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Speaker 2: We've seen a few of these kind of documentaries made

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Speaker 2: as an opportunity for people to sort of acknowledge their mistakes,

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Speaker 2: clear the air, take responsibility, and it sounds like that's

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Speaker 2: not necessarily what's happened for everybody who's involved in this

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Speaker 2: particular one when it comes to America's Next Model, which

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Speaker 2: really like influenced a whole generation of young women and

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Speaker 2: some men as well. So, Tara, if not to take

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Speaker 2: full responsibility, what do you think the point of this

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Speaker 2: doco was.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a lot about the legacy of the show,

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Speaker 3: and it was a groundbreaking show and it did influence

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Speaker 3: so many shows that would follow it. My takeaway from

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Speaker 3: the show is it's about the models. It's just really

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Speaker 3: hearing their stories of what they went through and how

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Speaker 3: they kind of overcame the show to like go on

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Speaker 3: to live semi normal lives. Not not all of them,

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Speaker 3: some of them were really affected by it. I think

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Speaker 3: Tyra just kind of provides like the side commentary, but

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Speaker 3: it really is about these models and like hearing their stories.

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Speaker 2: When we compare early two thousands of America's Next Top

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Speaker 2: Model to Reality TV that we see on our screens now,

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Speaker 2: do you think that it's better or worse how they're made,

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Speaker 2: how the contestants are treated. Like these cautionary tales have

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Speaker 2: been around basically as long as reality TV's been beaming

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Speaker 2: into our living rooms.

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Speaker 3: I think it has changed. I think it was hard

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Speaker 3: in the early two thousands because reality stars were actually

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Speaker 3: treated horrendously. They were just treated horrendously on the show,

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Speaker 3: which is kind of still the case today, but they

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Speaker 3: were treated really badly after the show because they weren't

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Speaker 3: respected like in any way. So a lot of these models,

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Speaker 3: even if they won the show, they couldn't work because

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Speaker 3: in the early two thousands reality stars it was a

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Speaker 3: real stigmatized thing. And the Kardashualians very much changed that.

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Speaker 3: So I'd say now it is easier, and I think

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Speaker 3: there is more. There is more rules those highest stanzas

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Speaker 3: of how long they can film for. This was very

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Speaker 3: much like early days of reality TV, and they were

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Speaker 3: being filmed twenty four to seven. It was not even

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Speaker 3: with like work label laws or anything. Anything went in

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Speaker 3: those days. So it has improved. We now kind of

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Speaker 3: respect reality stars that in a way we never did.

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Speaker 2: I feel like when we talk about America's Next Top Model,

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Speaker 2: I've been thinking a lot about Australia's Next Top Model,

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Speaker 2: the spin off series that happened here down Under, and

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Speaker 2: it doesn't feel like there was this much controversy shrouding

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Speaker 2: that particular show.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there was controversy. I love that show, although

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Speaker 3: it's really problematic, so I would say the body shaming

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Speaker 3: was worse on the Show's Next Top Model. There was

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Speaker 3: no body diversity, like nothing at least of America's Top

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Speaker 3: Model would try. I was just size zero girls. And

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Speaker 3: then there was a few little controversial moments. Obviously there

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Speaker 3: was the wrong winner being announced if you remember that,

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Speaker 3: and Australia's Next Top Model for twenty ten is it's

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Speaker 3: you Kelsey.

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Speaker 2: I'm so sorry about this. Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: Oh I don't know what to say. This is not

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Speaker 3: this was a complete accident.

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 3: It's Amanda.

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 3: That was wild. And then there was also this bullying

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Speaker 3: saga where one of the winners was accused of like

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Speaker 3: bullying another girl in the house. But yeah, it wasn't

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Speaker 3: on the grand scale of like America's Next Top Model,

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Speaker 3: but there.

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Speaker 2: Was there was.

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Speaker 3: There was definitely some moments.

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Speaker 2: I guess finally, Tara for people who were hands of

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Speaker 2: America's Next Top Model, whether that was growing up watching

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Speaker 2: it and now realizing the era of their past ways,

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Speaker 2: what is this documentary supposed to be for us? We're

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Speaker 2: supposed to sit there and watch it feel bad that

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Speaker 2: we like the show and move on with life, or

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Speaker 2: like what are we supposed to do with it?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I just loved every second of it, because

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Speaker 3: I mean I watched this show when I was like

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Speaker 3: a teenager, so watching it, I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I loved her, And then I'm like, oh, yeah, that

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Speaker 3: was so cooked. How did this happen? So yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: kind of just nice to relive that. And then if

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Speaker 3: you don't know this show at all, this will be

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Speaker 3: a wild ride for you because you'll be like, how

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Speaker 3: was this made? But either way, I think you'll probably

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Speaker 3: enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for taking some time to feed your mind with

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Speaker 2: us today. Hey, before your head off, make sure we've

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Speaker 2: got your notifications turned on so you never miss an

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Speaker 2: episode off the Quickie. In the mornings, Claire has your

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Speaker 2: headlines and I'm usually there giving you a bit of

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Speaker 2: a deep dive on the news of the day. Plus

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Speaker 2: in the afternoon, Dunes as a whole group of folks

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Speaker 2: who bring you the latest from the Quikie news room

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Speaker 2: would hate bet miss it, so make sure you subscribed.

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Speaker 2: The Quikie is produced by me Taylor Strano, Ilaria Brophy

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Speaker 2: and Claire Murphy with audio production by Lou Hill.

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Speaker 1: Mumma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on