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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mom and mea podcast. Mama Mea

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Speaker 1: acknowledges the traditional owners of land and orders. This podcast

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Speaker 1: was recorded on It's a sunny December morning in twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 1: just ten days before Christmas, and Louisa Hope and her

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Speaker 1: seventy two year old mother Robin, are up early for

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Speaker 1: an appointment in Sydney, CBD. They're in Martin Place to

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Speaker 1: see a family lawyer, and at the bottom of the

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Speaker 1: building their meeting is in Sits, the popular Lint Cafe.

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Speaker 1: They pop inside for a coffee and a slice of toast.

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Speaker 1: After getting to their destination early just after eight thirty am,

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Speaker 1: Robin notices a man lingering. She remarks to her daughter

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Speaker 1: that he looks out of place. He's talking to the

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Speaker 1: cafes manager, who looks tense. After noting the interaction as odd,

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Speaker 1: the mother and daughter continue on with their breakfast.

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Speaker 2: They even order a second.

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Speaker 1: Coffee before attempting to hay and be on their way.

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Speaker 1: It's then at nine forty four am that man harn

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Speaker 1: Monis addresses the cafe full of morning commuters. He has

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Speaker 1: a bomb in his backpack, he says, and as of

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Speaker 1: this moment they are all his hostages. I want to

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Speaker 1: speak to the Prime Minister of Australia, he demands on

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Speaker 1: national radio, just to.

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Speaker 2: Got some breaking news.

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Speaker 1: As a police operation underwear in the heart of the city.

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Speaker 2: This garment is quite well known to police.

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Speaker 3: In fact, there are dozens and dozens of police. Some

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Speaker 3: are very heavily armed in helmets and KEP blast suits.

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Speaker 3: So I could see inside the building a woman with

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Speaker 3: her hand up against the glass.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations, a

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Speaker 1: Muma Meer podcast exploring the world's most borious crimes by

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Speaker 1: speaking to the people who know the most about them.

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Speaker 1: It's been ten years since the Sydney siege brought Australia

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Speaker 1: and the world to a standstill. A man brandishing a

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Speaker 1: gun who claimed to have a bomb holding ten customers

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Speaker 1: and eight employees of the Lint Cafe in Martin Place

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Speaker 1: hostage for sixteen hours. Two innocent lives were lost during

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Speaker 1: that terrifying day and night. The manager of the cafe,

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Speaker 1: a man named Tory Johnson, was executed by monas as

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Speaker 1: tactical police swarmed in just after two am. Barrister and

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Speaker 1: mother of three, Katrina Dawson was killed in the crossfire.

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Speaker 1: It's a crime that's been dissected at length over the

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Speaker 1: past decade, with criticism of the police handling of the

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Speaker 1: event at the forefront. I have a personal connection to

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Speaker 1: this story. I was a young radio journalist working the

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Speaker 1: night shift at two gb mcquarie Radio. I covered the

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Speaker 1: final hours of the siege on the hour as the

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Speaker 1: national newsreader for the network. I did so with a

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Speaker 1: police negotiator by my side and a reporter at the scene.

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Speaker 2: Feeding back information.

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Speaker 1: It's a story and a crime I think about often,

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Speaker 1: especially as we unpack in today's episode, as the media's

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Speaker 1: role in the siege has come under scrutiny. Today's guest

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Speaker 1: is true crime author and podcaster Vicki Petratus, who, alongside

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Speaker 1: her co host Emily Webb, are revisiting the siege as

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Speaker 1: we commemorate this anniversary in a series called The Unthinkable,

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Speaker 1: a case file presents podcast hosted by a cast. They

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Speaker 1: tell the story through two lenses, that of a hostage

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Speaker 1: survivor and that of a TOU operative that we've only

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Speaker 1: been able to name in full in recent days. Ben

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Speaker 1: Bessant is the TOU officer who shot Monest dead in

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Speaker 1: those final moments of the siege. His name has been suppressed,

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Speaker 1: an order that was made at the time to protect him,

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Speaker 1: but has become a burden and a shackle over time,

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Speaker 1: only further exacerbating his PTSD from the event. It was

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Speaker 1: lifted by the New South Wales Supreme Court on the

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Speaker 1: twenty ninth of November twenty twenty four. Vicky joins us

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Speaker 1: now to take us back to the start. VICKI tell

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Speaker 1: me about the decision to revisit this story on the

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Speaker 1: ten year anniversary and how you decided to do that.

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Speaker 2: At first, the entree into this story was Ben Bissant,

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Speaker 2: who's now reclaimed his name. He was the tou operative

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Speaker 2: who took down the terrorist and he had gotten in

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Speaker 2: touch with Case, who I work for, and wanted to

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Speaker 2: tell his story. We got in touch with Ben and

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Speaker 2: we started to research him, read his book, Tiger Tiger Tiger,

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Speaker 2: and one of the YouTube clips that we looked at

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Speaker 2: was Louisa Hope talking at Ben's launch. And there is

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Speaker 2: something about Louisa that you just mesmerized by her, the

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Speaker 2: way that she speaks the dignity. Oh my goodness, she's amazing.

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Speaker 2: And so I said to Ben, oh you know, can

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Speaker 2: we get Louisa's number? And so he cleared that with

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Speaker 2: Louisa and just talking to her, we knew that she

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Speaker 2: would be an episode on her own. And Louise is

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Speaker 2: one of these people I think that thinks, oh are

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Speaker 2: people really interested? Hell yeah, And so we spent the

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Speaker 2: most amazing day with Louisa and we were just captivated

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Speaker 2: by her, and that's how we came to do both

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Speaker 2: of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you tell the story from two sides, really

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Speaker 1: our hostage's side and then a tou or police officer's

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Speaker 1: side of things. Where were you when this siege was unfolding?

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Speaker 1: I feel like this is one of those stories or

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Speaker 1: those crimes in our history where those of us who

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Speaker 1: lived through it kind of know where we were.

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Speaker 2: It's one of those kinds of ones. Look, it's a

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Speaker 2: great question because I'm in Melbourne, and so while it

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Speaker 2: came onto your radar that there's a in the Link cafe,

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Speaker 2: I don't know Sydney. My best friend lives in Sydney

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Speaker 2: and I know the suburb she lives in, and I

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Speaker 2: don't know anything else. And so I really I guess

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Speaker 2: like most Melbournians, it comes up on the news and

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Speaker 2: people start to talk about it, but it's not something

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Speaker 2: where like I think I could tell you where I

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Speaker 2: was when Melbourne things happened, but it's that little bit

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Speaker 2: further removed. So for me, it was just sort of

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Speaker 2: watching it on the news. And then of course it

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Speaker 2: became iconic, didn't it when we all remember seeing the

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Speaker 2: hostages taking flight, and I think all of us remember

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Speaker 2: those iconic shots of them fleeing in terror and then

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Speaker 2: being scooped into the arms of the Tactical Operations Unit people,

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Speaker 2: so Ben and his bodies and almost they come flying

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Speaker 2: out and then they're scooped in to safety, and I

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Speaker 2: think those kind of images they don't believe you do they.

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Speaker 1: Let's tell story a little bit because it has been

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Speaker 1: ten years for those that have forgotten the details. Manharan

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Speaker 1: Monas took the occupants of the Limb Cafe hostage on

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Speaker 1: the morning of December fifteenth. Can you walk us through

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Speaker 1: what his demands and threats were.

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Speaker 2: So he had come into the cafe I think at

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Speaker 2: around eight point thirty and had breakfast and at the

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Speaker 2: end of the breakfast, so he was there for over

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Speaker 2: an hour before he made it known that he was

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Speaker 2: going to take the more hostage. And what was really

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Speaker 2: fascinating talking to Louisa was that her mother had him pegged.

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Speaker 2: And I loved in the interview where her mother's saying Louisa,

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Speaker 2: that man, he doesn't belong. What's he doing here? And

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Speaker 2: Louisa goes to book. Don't look. You know how every

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Speaker 2: mom does that. Don't look, Louisa, And so Louise's trying

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Speaker 2: to get reptitious glances at this guy. But he didn't

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Speaker 2: belong and there was something about his demeanor that Louis's

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Speaker 2: mum picked up. So I think it was like nine

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Speaker 2: forty where he asks one of the weight staff to

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Speaker 2: talk to the manager and really it's time of ten

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Speaker 2: to ten before he stands up with the government says

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Speaker 2: you know what, the door's locked and your hostages and

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Speaker 2: what he wanted. I think his demands were odd, but

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Speaker 2: I guess they meant made sense to him. But what

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Speaker 2: he wanted was to engage in dialogue with the Prime

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Speaker 2: Minister and he wanted to send out the message that

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Speaker 2: you know, Australia was under attack and Islamic state. You know,

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Speaker 2: he was very much he a self identifying terrorist, and

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Speaker 2: that he wanted to know that Sydney and Australia was

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Speaker 2: under attack and he wanted that publicized. And of course

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Speaker 2: what happened was all of the eighteen hostages were left

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Speaker 2: really to do this mad scramble. I mean, how do

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Speaker 2: you call the Prime Minister? How do you do that?

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Speaker 2: Call the ABC? I don't know their number. So all

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Speaker 2: of the hostages were left to try and service these

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Speaker 2: demands that we're never ever going to be met. I

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Speaker 2: think Monas wanted on air debate with the Prime Minister.

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Speaker 2: That's never going to happen. I think the police, law

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Speaker 2: enforcement will never ever bend to the will of terrorists

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Speaker 2: because if you can get the Prime Minister on air,

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Speaker 2: then I don't know, next week we're going to have

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Speaker 2: another terror attack, and they know that they can disappoint

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Speaker 2: a gun at someone and get the Prime Minister on

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Speaker 2: the line. And so I think that there's an unwillingness

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Speaker 2: with law enforcement ever bend to the will or the

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Speaker 2: demands of someone like Monas.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about Louisa and her mum being two of

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Speaker 1: the hostages. Who else was in that cafe. It was

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Speaker 1: a real mixture of people, wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the Link cafe staff were I think there

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Speaker 2: was eight of them and ten hostages. So we had

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Speaker 2: Katrina Dawson and two of her law colleagues. There were

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Speaker 2: four people that worked at Westpac Bank, and there was

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Speaker 2: Louisa and her mum, and then there was John O'Brien

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Speaker 2: who was at the eighty two year old retired tennis player.

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Speaker 2: And so you have this really eclectic from young to old,

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Speaker 2: you know, this mix of people in the cafe, and

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Speaker 2: then you have the white staff themselves really young people

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Speaker 2: that were left to do an extraordinary job of being

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Speaker 2: able to stay alive when there was someone like manis

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Speaker 2: holding a gun at them all day.

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Speaker 1: You have spent a significant amount of time with Louisa

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Speaker 1: kind of talking through her recollections of that time. It

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Speaker 1: is ten years after the fact. How did you find

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Speaker 1: her recollection of that time and her memories and what

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Speaker 1: she spoke about.

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Speaker 2: I think with trauma, it's like you can close your

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Speaker 2: eyes and you are there. And I think that this

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Speaker 2: is a really common response that it is as real

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Speaker 2: today for that kind of huge trauma as it was

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Speaker 2: the day that it happened. And what I found really

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Speaker 2: interesting about Louisa was that she has spent I guess

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Speaker 2: ten years trying to piece together the whole story, because

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Speaker 2: she talks about knowing her bit but found out stuff

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Speaker 2: at the inquest about oh, I didn't know that, And

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Speaker 2: then I think at one point she had sort of

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Speaker 2: thrown herself on the ground right before the shooting starts.

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Speaker 2: But then she's standing up again and she's like, I

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Speaker 2: don't understand how I went from lying down to standing up.

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Speaker 2: And the other day she said to me, I think

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Speaker 2: I remember that now, And so for her, it's not

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Speaker 2: about a fading memory. I think it is about a

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Speaker 2: building memory that you're trying to reconstruct the whole event.

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Speaker 2: And I guess that's always just to make sense of it,

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Speaker 2: isn't it?

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Speaker 1: Can you take us inside that cafe? What was it

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Speaker 1: like in there? Obviously there was a lot of fear,

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Speaker 1: but it went on for sixteen hours or so, so

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Speaker 1: a lot of emotions, a lot of kind of differing

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Speaker 1: opinions and emotions are going to be present during that time.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think that when the hostage situation first happened,

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Speaker 2: there's that sense of disbelief, and Louisa talks about is

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Speaker 2: this a Channel seven like prank show? Channel Seven's just

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Speaker 2: across the way is this a joke? And I think

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Speaker 2: it became very quickly obvious that it wasn't. But Louisa

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Speaker 2: talks about the fact that one minute, Monus would be

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Speaker 2: speaking to her in a way that's interested in her,

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Speaker 2: and she has multiple sclerosis, so he was saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: tell me about that. But she said equally, the next

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Speaker 2: minute he could be grabbing her and pointing the gun

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Speaker 2: at her head, threatening to shoot her. And so I

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Speaker 2: guess that it was for the hostages, this is what

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Speaker 2: they all would have seen. They would have seen calm

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Speaker 2: and then explosive and demanding, but at the same time, well,

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Speaker 2: I think the whole day they would have just been

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Speaker 2: absolutely on edge because he's got the gun and he's

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Speaker 2: saying that he's wearing a bomb, and he's threatened to

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Speaker 2: kill them, and so I can only just imagine what

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Speaker 2: that would have been like. And then you had some

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Speaker 2: of the hostages, Massia and Selena especially were really trying

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Speaker 2: to and they copped a lot of criticism for this,

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Speaker 2: which is awful, but they were trying to say, well,

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Speaker 2: if you want us to put stuff on social media

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Speaker 2: or you know, we'll try and get your demands met.

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Speaker 2: So they knew that it meant their life, and I

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Speaker 2: remember afterwards people criticizing that, and I thought, you didn't

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Speaker 2: walk a mile in their shoes. And these people were

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Speaker 2: all doing the best that they could to live, and

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Speaker 2: I think they all did an awesome job at trying

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Speaker 2: to navigate around the horror that they found themselves in.

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Speaker 1: Because the reality was he had a gun, but he

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Speaker 1: also claimed to have a bomb or a few bombs.

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Speaker 1: But Louisa speaks to you about how she was a

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Speaker 1: bit wary of that information from the start.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, and it was her mum that said he

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Speaker 2: didn't look like he was carrying a bomb, and Louisa's like,

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Speaker 2: how would my mom know what someone looks like carrying

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Speaker 2: a bomb? But I think, you know she talks about

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Speaker 2: I think she was right in the fact that he

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Speaker 2: wasn't being over I spent. I guess if you had

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Speaker 2: a bomb on your back, you would be your movements

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Speaker 2: would be a little bit tentative because you might blow

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Speaker 2: yourself up. But he didn't seem to act and move

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Speaker 2: like he had something that could explode. And I think

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Speaker 2: that's what her mum ended up talking about. But I

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Speaker 2: think we have to remember ten years down the track,

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Speaker 2: that the operatives that were preparing to go in thought

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Speaker 2: they were going to die, thought that he would explode

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Speaker 2: a bomb, and so the whole siege had to be

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Speaker 2: treated like he did have a bomb, even though the

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Speaker 2: two other bombs that he said were around Sydney, I

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Speaker 2: think Circular Key and somewhere else that there weren't, but

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Speaker 2: he was treated like it was a bomb, and that

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Speaker 2: changed everything. And this is why the police were really

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Speaker 2: reluctant to go in, because then everybody dies if he

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Speaker 2: sets off the bomb, they all die, and so I

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Speaker 2: think we forget that. And there was even comments on

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Speaker 2: social media the other day after Ben did his beautiful

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Speaker 2: Spotlight interview and just some really thoughtless comments of people

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Speaker 2: who obviously didn't watch the show. Oh the police were cowards, this,

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Speaker 2: that and the other. But really the courage that it

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Speaker 2: took for them to go in thinking that they would

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Speaker 2: not survive it and getting their partners to send pictures

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Speaker 2: of their children was you know, brings a tear to

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Speaker 2: the eye because they didn't think they would survive. So

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Speaker 2: it wasn't about courage, it was about risk.

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Speaker 1: All of that is a side of the story that

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Speaker 1: we learned months years. Some of it a decade later.

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Speaker 1: If we go back to the siege itself, I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about the media's role, because we live in

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Speaker 1: a twenty four hour news cycle. The police were on

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Speaker 1: the scene very quickly, but so too with the media.

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Speaker 1: The world's media was watching this siege unfold in Sydney.

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Speaker 1: Louisa explained to you how damaging some of that coverage was.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain what she meant by that and what

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Speaker 1: the whole stages were so upset about.

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Speaker 2: Inside so they had access to radio interviews. Inside the cafe,

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Speaker 2: there was a TV, but I think it was one

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Speaker 2: of those display ones that just showed the ads and

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Speaker 2: they said, no, no, we can't get TV. So in

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Speaker 2: the days ten years ago, you probably couldn't watch it

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Speaker 2: on your phone. So they he was listening to the

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Speaker 2: media coverage of it. And at one point, so around

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Speaker 2: sort of three ish, John O'Brien escaped, Stefan, one of

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Speaker 2: the lawyers, and Paolo, one of the white staff, escaped

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Speaker 2: and went racing out the building, and Monus had threatened

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Speaker 2: to shoot anyone if anyone else escaped, and then two girls,

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Speaker 2: Ali and April, really young, and they were terrified, and

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Speaker 2: one of them had vomited like it was physical manifestations

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Speaker 2: of the terror that they were facing. And the two

295
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Speaker 2: girls had sort of crawled over to near the door,

296
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Speaker 2: and Jared Morton Hoffman sort of nudged the link Bear,

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Speaker 2: you know, the big poster of the link Bear, in

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Speaker 2: front of them, and they were undoing the bolts on

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Speaker 2: the door, and they raced out, and Monas didn't notice.

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Speaker 2: He didn't ever do a head count, and he didn't

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Speaker 2: notice that they were gone. And then the media starts reporting,

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Speaker 2: and Louisa talks specifically about this lovely woman from the BBC,

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Speaker 2: this lovely English voice saying two more hostages have escaped,

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Speaker 2: and he hears it, and he says, what where where

305
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Speaker 2: are they? And so all of the hostages and this

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Speaker 2: is where the roles had to be. No no, no brother.

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Speaker 2: He made them call him brother, no brother. The media

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Speaker 2: are just lying no other hostages escaped. But she's thinking,

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Speaker 2: this woman in England is talking about something that could

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Speaker 2: get me killed. And so Louis so herself is a

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Speaker 2: a great fan of the freedom of the press, but

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Speaker 2: in this case she highlights the fact that information that

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Speaker 2: he was listening to that he did not know could

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Speaker 2: have got her killed, and she says, if it's a

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Speaker 2: question of media freedom versus my life, I think we

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Speaker 2: need to look at this and we need to be

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Speaker 2: better at not jeopardizing. I don't know what the fix

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Speaker 2: is because the media, there's no way they're going to

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Speaker 2: not report on that, but it just highlighted just how

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Speaker 2: risky that was for the people in the cafe.

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Speaker 1: To give another perspective, I was working in radio at

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Speaker 1: the time at two GB McCrory Radio, which is actually

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Speaker 1: one of the station's monas was listening to for updates.

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Speaker 1: So I was the newsreader overnight into the two AM

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Speaker 1: into all of it, and I actually had a police

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Speaker 1: negotiator next to me as I wrote my scripts, who

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Speaker 1: was checking what I was putting out there. So at

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Speaker 1: the time I felt safe in that because I had

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Speaker 1: I was in my early twenties at the time, but

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Speaker 1: I had a senior cop telling me take that out,

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Speaker 1: leave that in. But we were all reporting five hostages

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Speaker 1: have left the building thinking that that was okay. So

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Speaker 1: it just goes to show that even you know, the

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Speaker 1: police negotiator that I had in my newsroom wasn't aware

335
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Speaker 1: of what the hostages needed in that moment.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps of course they wouldn't have been aware. But what

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Speaker 2: you have, and I think talking to Louisa really brought

338
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Speaker 2: this home and then watching interviews with the others, is

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Speaker 2: that this small group of people who were mostly strangers

340
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Speaker 2: to each other are inside that cafe being left to

341
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Speaker 2: deal with that. They had no expertise in hostage negotiation,

342
00:21:06,262 --> 00:21:08,782
Speaker 2: and they were left to deal with this on their own,

343
00:21:09,102 --> 00:21:11,502
Speaker 2: and no one would have known. But I think in

344
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Speaker 2: the early reporting when Luisa said, we just said to him, oh,

345
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Speaker 2: the media are just lying to make you look bad, brother,

346
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Speaker 2: and I think he went off fair enough. That was

347
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Speaker 2: a palatable truth for him to accept, and so I

348
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Speaker 2: don't think any reporting later on put them in jeopardy

349
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Speaker 2: because they had said no, no, no, they're just lying, but

350
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Speaker 2: that media. You can't trust the media, which of course

351
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Speaker 2: played into his I guess paranoia.

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Speaker 1: I want to timeline the day a bit because we've

353
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Speaker 1: we've spoken about several hostages escaping, monics kind of holds

354
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Speaker 1: everyone hostage at ten. By eleven o'clock, we've got tactical

355
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Speaker 1: police surrounding. By three point thirty pm, we've got three

356
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Speaker 1: hostages escaping. Two more escape at five pm. But it's

357
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Speaker 1: not until two am that everything kind of comes to

358
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Speaker 1: a head. Can you tell us about that really next

359
00:22:04,742 --> 00:22:08,302
Speaker 1: thirteen minutes? What happened to end the siege?

360
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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, it's it's really quite a distressing thing

361
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Speaker 2: to hear the people that were involved. So we had

362
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Speaker 2: Louisa on the inside and we had Ben on the outside,

363
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Speaker 2: and we had these two perspectives, and I think were

364
00:22:25,542 --> 00:22:30,862
Speaker 2: while the police negotiators and a psychiatrist that they had

365
00:22:31,782 --> 00:22:37,102
Speaker 2: advising them said that things were calming down, it was

366
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Speaker 2: going against Tory. Johnson was sending texts to his family

367
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Speaker 2: during this time, going he's agitated, He's going to kill someone.

368
00:22:45,822 --> 00:22:48,902
Speaker 2: All the hostages that had left had said he's agitated,

369
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Speaker 2: he's unhinged, he's going to kill someone. And the psychiatrist

370
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Speaker 2: and some of the negotiators there was actually kind of

371
00:22:58,822 --> 00:23:02,822
Speaker 2: disturbing footage of them at being inadvertently recorded sort of saying, oh, no,

372
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Speaker 2: he won't hurt anyone. He's someone that will outsource that

373
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Speaker 2: because of his background and talk more about sort of

374
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Speaker 2: the criminology or the crime history that he brought to

375
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Speaker 2: the cafe. But they had ignored the hostages, I think,

376
00:23:22,302 --> 00:23:24,742
Speaker 2: and they said he'll settle down for the night, and

377
00:23:24,982 --> 00:23:28,982
Speaker 2: there was no evidence to suggest that he wasn't becoming increasingly.

378
00:23:29,022 --> 00:23:32,782
Speaker 2: He would have been sleep deprived, he would have been agitated.

379
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Speaker 2: He's not getting anywhere. Hostages are running out the door,

380
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Speaker 2: and so what I think Monus had heard some noises

381
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Speaker 2: out the back in the kitchen, and he took Fiona

382
00:23:45,142 --> 00:23:47,822
Speaker 2: and Selena and Jared out to the kitchen and he

383
00:23:47,862 --> 00:23:53,342
Speaker 2: wanted the girls to stack boxes. And they were empty boxes,

384
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Speaker 2: so it wouldn't have blocked anyone coming through the door,

385
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Speaker 2: but he wanted these boxes stacked in front of the door.

386
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Speaker 2: And that was the first time that he had left

387
00:24:01,102 --> 00:24:05,502
Speaker 2: the main body of the cafe, and so he sent

388
00:24:05,622 --> 00:24:08,222
Speaker 2: Jared back out again and he said, you know, you

389
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Speaker 2: guard the door, and Jared kind of went, we've got

390
00:24:11,382 --> 00:24:15,582
Speaker 2: to run, We've got to run, and so he gathered.

391
00:24:15,702 --> 00:24:18,222
Speaker 2: You know, he's gesturing because you can't make a noise,

392
00:24:18,302 --> 00:24:20,502
Speaker 2: but he's like, come on, come on, and they just

393
00:24:21,062 --> 00:24:26,542
Speaker 2: six hostages bolted for the door and were able to escape,

394
00:24:26,582 --> 00:24:28,902
Speaker 2: but someone knocked a glass over on the way out

395
00:24:29,022 --> 00:24:32,622
Speaker 2: and he runs out and fires at them, and you

396
00:24:32,622 --> 00:24:36,062
Speaker 2: can see the CCTV of them fleeing, and then you

397
00:24:36,102 --> 00:24:39,942
Speaker 2: see the shattering of the shot that he's firing on them,

398
00:24:40,462 --> 00:24:45,022
Speaker 2: and certainly the tou thought that that's when they would

399
00:24:45,062 --> 00:24:49,382
Speaker 2: get the call he's fired a shot, but they don't,

400
00:24:49,702 --> 00:24:54,182
Speaker 2: and so he Monus goes back into the cafe and

401
00:24:54,222 --> 00:24:58,342
Speaker 2: it's this time that he tells Tory Johnson to get

402
00:24:58,382 --> 00:25:02,422
Speaker 2: down on his knees. He gets Louisa and her mother Robin,

403
00:25:02,462 --> 00:25:08,622
Speaker 2: who's seventy one, sort of flanking him, and he he

404
00:25:08,742 --> 00:25:14,822
Speaker 2: shoots Tory, fires shot first where it's above Toy's head

405
00:25:14,862 --> 00:25:18,942
Speaker 2: and Tory falls forward and then sort of slowly, he's

406
00:25:19,062 --> 00:25:21,782
Speaker 2: incredibly distressed and he gets back onto his knees and

407
00:25:21,822 --> 00:25:26,902
Speaker 2: then he's executed. And it's almost like you wonder if

408
00:25:26,942 --> 00:25:29,502
Speaker 2: Monas is saying, well a fire above him, maybe the

409
00:25:29,542 --> 00:25:32,022
Speaker 2: police will come in, maybe I can have my shootout

410
00:25:32,022 --> 00:25:34,942
Speaker 2: with the police, but the place still don't come in,

411
00:25:35,742 --> 00:25:41,222
Speaker 2: and then he kills Tory Johnson. So in the minutes

412
00:25:41,262 --> 00:25:44,342
Speaker 2: after that, they finally get the call to go in,

413
00:25:45,102 --> 00:25:48,702
Speaker 2: and it's pandemonium. You can also watch videos of the

414
00:25:49,462 --> 00:25:52,902
Speaker 2: team that's coming in through the foyer and they're throwing

415
00:25:53,062 --> 00:25:58,102
Speaker 2: flashbang devices. They're sort of bouncing off the walls, interfering

416
00:25:58,182 --> 00:26:01,942
Speaker 2: with their ability to enter. And then of course Ben

417
00:26:01,982 --> 00:26:04,262
Speaker 2: and his team are at the front. They're the Alpha team,

418
00:26:04,702 --> 00:26:08,342
Speaker 2: and they're trying to fire through the glass door to

419
00:26:08,582 --> 00:26:12,022
Speaker 2: get a broken the broken glass, and then they get

420
00:26:12,022 --> 00:26:15,662
Speaker 2: a clear shot at the terrorist, but they didn't realize

421
00:26:15,702 --> 00:26:19,062
Speaker 2: that the glass was bulletproof because Link used to be

422
00:26:19,102 --> 00:26:22,102
Speaker 2: a bank, and so it took a number of shots

423
00:26:22,102 --> 00:26:25,182
Speaker 2: like bang bang, bang, bang bang before the glass finally shatters.

424
00:26:25,822 --> 00:26:30,102
Speaker 2: And then Ben talks to us on the podcast about

425
00:26:30,102 --> 00:26:33,422
Speaker 2: that moment where the glass shatters and his eye to

426
00:26:33,502 --> 00:26:38,022
Speaker 2: eye with the offender, and then that he just starts shooting,

427
00:26:38,502 --> 00:26:42,382
Speaker 2: but Monus is firing back. So Ben is fully expecting

428
00:26:42,422 --> 00:26:45,222
Speaker 2: not only to get blown up, but he's fully expecting

429
00:26:45,222 --> 00:26:47,902
Speaker 2: with this guy firing a shotgun at him just across

430
00:26:47,942 --> 00:26:51,062
Speaker 2: a cafe. There's no distance, and I think he fired

431
00:26:51,102 --> 00:26:54,142
Speaker 2: two shots at them, and Ben just kept shooting until

432
00:26:55,862 --> 00:26:58,902
Speaker 2: Monus went down. And of course this all takes a

433
00:26:58,942 --> 00:27:03,582
Speaker 2: couple of seconds, but the inquest would rake over that

434
00:27:03,742 --> 00:27:05,382
Speaker 2: for many years afterwards.

435
00:27:06,742 --> 00:27:09,582
Speaker 1: There was another fatality when all of that gunfire was happening,

436
00:27:09,862 --> 00:27:11,982
Speaker 1: when the police finally barged through that door, and that

437
00:27:12,022 --> 00:27:17,022
Speaker 1: was Katrina. She died in that, and then there were

438
00:27:17,062 --> 00:27:20,062
Speaker 1: a number of hostages and also a cop that got

439
00:27:20,062 --> 00:27:20,862
Speaker 1: injured as well.

440
00:27:21,702 --> 00:27:26,502
Speaker 2: Katrina was lying on the floor with a sort of

441
00:27:26,582 --> 00:27:30,942
Speaker 2: under a group of stacked tables, and I guess tables

442
00:27:30,942 --> 00:27:35,542
Speaker 2: are going to be no shield against bullet fragments. And

443
00:27:36,102 --> 00:27:39,182
Speaker 2: this is one of the great tragedies at the loss

444
00:27:39,222 --> 00:27:42,662
Speaker 2: of Katrina Dawson, who's a young mum, a lawyer, full

445
00:27:42,702 --> 00:27:48,502
Speaker 2: of life and every hope for the future. But what

446
00:27:48,862 --> 00:27:52,462
Speaker 2: Ben was originally told was that she died of a

447
00:27:52,502 --> 00:27:57,662
Speaker 2: police bullet, and he was just sick with the thought

448
00:27:57,902 --> 00:28:01,982
Speaker 2: that he could have killed her. You know, he's firing

449
00:28:02,022 --> 00:28:05,622
Speaker 2: with a laser right at the target and he's like,

450
00:28:05,702 --> 00:28:09,382
Speaker 2: how could how could it have happened? He finds seventeen shots,

451
00:28:09,702 --> 00:28:13,302
Speaker 2: his colleague five, and they're the only shots that are

452
00:28:13,302 --> 00:28:16,662
Speaker 2: fired in the direction of Katrina. And then later on

453
00:28:16,662 --> 00:28:21,462
Speaker 2: that day they are told that Katrina has died from fragments.

454
00:28:21,942 --> 00:28:25,302
Speaker 2: So bullets going through the government hitting their target but

455
00:28:25,382 --> 00:28:30,742
Speaker 2: then shattering and she's been hit with shrapnel. And I

456
00:28:30,782 --> 00:28:33,182
Speaker 2: said to Ben, I remember that really emotional part of

457
00:28:33,182 --> 00:28:35,262
Speaker 2: the interview. I said, did that make any difference? And

458
00:28:35,302 --> 00:28:37,102
Speaker 2: he just looked at me and he goes what do

459
00:28:37,142 --> 00:28:39,862
Speaker 2: you think? And I went no, and he goes no.

460
00:28:40,702 --> 00:28:44,102
Speaker 2: And so I think the heartache and the trauma and

461
00:28:44,142 --> 00:28:49,342
Speaker 2: the tragedy was that he took on the blame completely

462
00:28:49,942 --> 00:28:53,822
Speaker 2: for killing Katrina Dawson and then of course she dies

463
00:28:53,862 --> 00:28:59,822
Speaker 2: in his arms. So that just you know, it's beyond belief,

464
00:28:59,862 --> 00:29:03,662
Speaker 2: isn't it the kind of trauma that happens when someone

465
00:29:03,782 --> 00:29:05,142
Speaker 2: like Monus does what he does.

466
00:29:11,742 --> 00:29:15,422
Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bass.

467
00:29:15,862 --> 00:29:18,302
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with true crime author and co host of

468
00:29:18,342 --> 00:29:22,262
Speaker 1: The Unthinkable podcast, Vicki Petratus. After the break, we talk

469
00:29:22,302 --> 00:29:25,382
Speaker 1: about the bravery of Tory and Katrina, the two victims

470
00:29:25,422 --> 00:29:30,782
Speaker 1: who were killed that night. I want to touch a

471
00:29:30,782 --> 00:29:34,502
Speaker 1: bit more on Katrina and Tory while we're here. Can

472
00:29:34,542 --> 00:29:36,542
Speaker 1: you tell us a bit more about them? Tory in

473
00:29:36,582 --> 00:29:41,302
Speaker 1: particular showed incredible bravery during that siege, didn't he.

474
00:29:41,822 --> 00:29:44,862
Speaker 2: I think when they interviewed his link colleagues afterwards and

475
00:29:44,902 --> 00:29:47,862
Speaker 2: his family, and they talked about what an awesome person

476
00:29:47,942 --> 00:29:53,342
Speaker 2: he was. But the prevailing memory for me is that

477
00:29:54,902 --> 00:29:59,822
Speaker 2: he sat with Louisa's mum, Robin and Louisa talked about

478
00:29:59,902 --> 00:30:02,382
Speaker 2: during the day they would be sitting and holding hands.

479
00:30:02,982 --> 00:30:04,862
Speaker 2: She talks about being a little bit like what are

480
00:30:04,942 --> 00:30:08,662
Speaker 2: you doing and giggling, and she goes, Now, I understand

481
00:30:08,702 --> 00:30:12,182
Speaker 2: that he sat with my mum to calm her down

482
00:30:12,862 --> 00:30:15,822
Speaker 2: and to keep her settled and to keep her anchored.

483
00:30:16,422 --> 00:30:21,382
Speaker 2: Because at one point, when Robin had challenged the terrorist

484
00:30:22,382 --> 00:30:25,542
Speaker 2: and he had turned to Louisa and said, Louisa, keep

485
00:30:25,582 --> 00:30:29,662
Speaker 2: your mother quiet, Louis's like, if only I could, because

486
00:30:29,742 --> 00:30:33,502
Speaker 2: you can't keep your mom quiet. So she felt that

487
00:30:33,662 --> 00:30:38,022
Speaker 2: Tory just sat with her mum and when the others

488
00:30:38,102 --> 00:30:40,982
Speaker 2: fled and her mom said, toy, you run, and he goes,

489
00:30:40,982 --> 00:30:45,382
Speaker 2: I'm not leaving you. And so there was this understanding

490
00:30:45,902 --> 00:30:49,382
Speaker 2: that Louisa said, you know, no greater love has a

491
00:30:49,422 --> 00:30:51,502
Speaker 2: man than to lay down his life for a friend.

492
00:30:52,782 --> 00:30:56,702
Speaker 2: And I think that's what he did. So such a

493
00:30:56,742 --> 00:31:00,182
Speaker 2: horrible loss, and he was so scared, and he was

494
00:31:00,222 --> 00:31:03,182
Speaker 2: texting his family. And another tragedy, of course, is that

495
00:31:03,262 --> 00:31:05,342
Speaker 2: he's texting his mom saying I love you when I'm

496
00:31:05,342 --> 00:31:08,382
Speaker 2: a hostage, and the police are saying, don't text him back,

497
00:31:11,062 --> 00:31:11,262
Speaker 2: you know.

498
00:31:12,022 --> 00:31:14,702
Speaker 1: And then we've got Katrina, who had three young children

499
00:31:14,942 --> 00:31:18,942
Speaker 1: at home, who was you know, a very successful lawyer

500
00:31:18,982 --> 00:31:21,822
Speaker 1: and had you know, all these amazing friends and family

501
00:31:21,822 --> 00:31:22,982
Speaker 1: and colleagues who loved her.

502
00:31:23,742 --> 00:31:29,542
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is such a great tragedy. And one

503
00:31:29,582 --> 00:31:31,942
Speaker 2: of the interviews that I just saw recently, people were

504
00:31:31,982 --> 00:31:36,462
Speaker 2: saying Katrina was using her legal skills during the day

505
00:31:36,622 --> 00:31:38,822
Speaker 2: to kind of keep the terrorists calm, and I hadn't

506
00:31:38,862 --> 00:31:42,782
Speaker 2: heard that before. And then Fiona mar talks about she

507
00:31:42,942 --> 00:31:46,022
Speaker 2: was another nineteen year old white staff at WINT and

508
00:31:46,102 --> 00:31:49,422
Speaker 2: she talks about she was such a great comfort to everybody.

509
00:31:49,462 --> 00:31:55,342
Speaker 2: Fiona was cool and calm, and she talks about that

510
00:31:55,342 --> 00:31:57,982
Speaker 2: there being two types of people in the cafe, ones

511
00:31:58,022 --> 00:32:01,422
Speaker 2: that would need to be kept calm and ones that

512
00:32:01,462 --> 00:32:05,942
Speaker 2: would calm others, and she described Katrina as one who

513
00:32:06,102 --> 00:32:09,382
Speaker 2: kept her calm. And I've had so many people talk

514
00:32:09,382 --> 00:32:12,902
Speaker 2: about Fiona's the one that kept them calm. But I thought, Ah,

515
00:32:13,022 --> 00:32:17,862
Speaker 2: that's such an interesting take on the fact that that,

516
00:32:18,062 --> 00:32:19,622
Speaker 2: you know, when they would go off to the toilet,

517
00:32:19,622 --> 00:32:22,142
Speaker 2: because Fiona was the one that was tasked to take

518
00:32:22,182 --> 00:32:25,662
Speaker 2: all of them to the toilet. And she talked about

519
00:32:26,222 --> 00:32:28,542
Speaker 2: the fact that, you know, Katrina and her would have

520
00:32:28,582 --> 00:32:35,262
Speaker 2: these conversations in the toilet where she felt calmer. So, yeah,

521
00:32:35,422 --> 00:32:36,582
Speaker 2: such a great tragedy.

522
00:32:37,222 --> 00:32:41,542
Speaker 1: We've touched on the criticism that started very very early on.

523
00:32:42,142 --> 00:32:45,702
Speaker 1: Why aren't the police going in? Why aren't they stopping him?

524
00:32:45,822 --> 00:32:49,502
Speaker 1: Why aren't they helping the hostages? Can you take us

525
00:32:49,502 --> 00:32:53,342
Speaker 1: outside to Ben's position? He was out the front of

526
00:32:53,342 --> 00:32:55,742
Speaker 1: the link cafe waiting, gne in hand.

527
00:32:56,502 --> 00:32:57,422
Speaker 2: What were his orders?

528
00:32:57,422 --> 00:32:58,662
Speaker 1: Why weren't they going in?

529
00:33:00,102 --> 00:33:02,102
Speaker 2: They weren't allowed to go in because of the bomb.

530
00:33:02,822 --> 00:33:06,102
Speaker 2: And so in a hostage situation, you can go in

531
00:33:06,102 --> 00:33:11,142
Speaker 2: in an emergency entry, which is what they emergency action

532
00:33:11,262 --> 00:33:16,782
Speaker 2: an EA, or a deliberate action. So they had planned

533
00:33:16,902 --> 00:33:20,062
Speaker 2: a deliberate action, and I think the army had weighed

534
00:33:20,062 --> 00:33:23,382
Speaker 2: in on that, and they had rehearsed it and set

535
00:33:23,422 --> 00:33:27,342
Speaker 2: up a mock link cafe, and the deliberate action plan

536
00:33:27,542 --> 00:33:31,262
Speaker 2: had not been approved, and I think there felt like,

537
00:33:32,262 --> 00:33:36,262
Speaker 2: according to Ben's book, they felt like a bit of

538
00:33:36,262 --> 00:33:41,302
Speaker 2: a disconnect between the people in charge of the operation

539
00:33:42,102 --> 00:33:46,822
Speaker 2: and then the tactical people who were trained in this

540
00:33:46,982 --> 00:33:49,502
Speaker 2: kind of operation. They felt like a disconnect in the

541
00:33:49,622 --> 00:33:54,582
Speaker 2: understandings of I think maybe if the tactical operations unit

542
00:33:54,622 --> 00:33:57,542
Speaker 2: had had been in charge, they would have done it differently,

543
00:33:58,382 --> 00:34:02,422
Speaker 2: But I think there was always going to be criticism.

544
00:34:02,742 --> 00:34:05,262
Speaker 2: But it was the bomb. It was the presence of

545
00:34:05,342 --> 00:34:08,382
Speaker 2: the bomb that in fact we now know didn't exist.

546
00:34:09,222 --> 00:34:13,022
Speaker 2: But it was the present of the bomb that changed everything,

547
00:34:13,342 --> 00:34:16,422
Speaker 2: because the concern was that they would all die and

548
00:34:16,502 --> 00:34:20,342
Speaker 2: that they would lose all the hostages and their tactical group.

549
00:34:21,142 --> 00:34:23,622
Speaker 1: At what point did the tactical group or does Ben

550
00:34:23,702 --> 00:34:25,902
Speaker 1: say the tactical group wanted to go in.

551
00:34:26,342 --> 00:34:28,982
Speaker 2: Oh, they wanted to go in straight away. From the

552
00:34:29,022 --> 00:34:30,902
Speaker 2: minute they got there. They're like, let us at him,

553
00:34:31,022 --> 00:34:33,102
Speaker 2: let us at him. There was a sniper and I've

554
00:34:33,142 --> 00:34:35,422
Speaker 2: seen him interviewed. You know, he might have been in

555
00:34:35,502 --> 00:34:38,182
Speaker 2: a bank across the other way and he's wanting to

556
00:34:38,222 --> 00:34:41,182
Speaker 2: take a shot. But now that we know that the

557
00:34:41,182 --> 00:34:43,862
Speaker 2: glass was bulletproof, even if you had taken a shot

558
00:34:43,982 --> 00:34:48,022
Speaker 2: from the other side of the building during the day

559
00:34:48,862 --> 00:34:50,942
Speaker 2: that could have just bounced off the glass. It may

560
00:34:50,982 --> 00:34:53,942
Speaker 2: not have been a successful shot, and that could have precipitated.

561
00:34:54,422 --> 00:34:57,222
Speaker 2: It's just so hard trying to predict the mind and

562
00:34:57,302 --> 00:35:02,622
Speaker 2: actions of a madman who is on a suicide mission.

563
00:35:03,462 --> 00:35:07,102
Speaker 1: Let's move on to the inquest, because it was huge,

564
00:35:07,222 --> 00:35:09,862
Speaker 1: to say the least it went for many weeks and months,

565
00:35:10,902 --> 00:35:13,262
Speaker 1: and all eyes were on it because there was so

566
00:35:13,382 --> 00:35:19,102
Speaker 1: much criticism about how the police handled this crime. Firstly,

567
00:35:19,822 --> 00:35:23,462
Speaker 1: what did the inquest uncover about Monus and his background

568
00:35:23,662 --> 00:35:25,742
Speaker 1: and how the police treated his background.

569
00:35:27,702 --> 00:35:32,822
Speaker 2: This is still contentious because Monus was on bail, and

570
00:35:33,142 --> 00:35:36,582
Speaker 2: he was on bail for really significant crimes, So he

571
00:35:36,702 --> 00:35:41,782
Speaker 2: was on bail for the stalking. Originally, he had been

572
00:35:41,862 --> 00:35:44,942
Speaker 2: charged with and found not guilty of the stalking of

573
00:35:44,982 --> 00:35:47,422
Speaker 2: his ex wife, the mother of his two little children,

574
00:35:48,062 --> 00:35:50,622
Speaker 2: and within a year of him being found not guilty

575
00:35:50,622 --> 00:35:54,142
Speaker 2: of that, she was murdered. And she was murdered by

576
00:35:54,422 --> 00:36:00,022
Speaker 2: Amir Drudis, who of course was Monus's partner, and Amrodrudis

577
00:36:00,062 --> 00:36:03,062
Speaker 2: had stabbed her eighteen times and set her on fire

578
00:36:03,502 --> 00:36:06,462
Speaker 2: as she came to collect the children that Monus had

579
00:36:06,662 --> 00:36:08,862
Speaker 2: kind of on the other side of town out of

580
00:36:08,902 --> 00:36:13,062
Speaker 2: the way, creating an alibi himself. So months after that,

581
00:36:13,062 --> 00:36:17,102
Speaker 2: that was in April of twenty thirteen, and then months

582
00:36:17,102 --> 00:36:21,182
Speaker 2: after they are both charged and Amir Drugus's charged with

583
00:36:21,222 --> 00:36:26,102
Speaker 2: the murder and Monas is charged with accessory to murder

584
00:36:27,342 --> 00:36:30,782
Speaker 2: and he spends a month in jail and then he's bailed,

585
00:36:32,662 --> 00:36:38,382
Speaker 2: but he was also on probation for sending disturbing letters

586
00:36:38,422 --> 00:36:42,982
Speaker 2: to the families of soldiers in Afghanistan, and he'd been

587
00:36:43,102 --> 00:36:47,142
Speaker 2: charged with that and he was on probation. So then

588
00:36:47,422 --> 00:36:51,662
Speaker 2: you also have in around sort of two thousand and

589
00:36:51,662 --> 00:36:54,942
Speaker 2: seven two thousand and eight, he had committed sexual assault

590
00:36:55,422 --> 00:36:58,502
Speaker 2: on you don't know how many clients are of his

591
00:36:59,102 --> 00:37:05,102
Speaker 2: fake spiritual business, and so he's on bail for the

592
00:37:05,182 --> 00:37:08,622
Speaker 2: accessory to murder and then he's charged with I think

593
00:37:08,702 --> 00:37:13,862
Speaker 2: forty three counts of aggravating sexual assault and he's bailed again.

594
00:37:14,142 --> 00:37:16,582
Speaker 2: This is all happening in the October, and then by

595
00:37:16,622 --> 00:37:21,142
Speaker 2: December he takes a gun and if we find him

596
00:37:21,142 --> 00:37:25,742
Speaker 2: in linked and so I think the natural question for

597
00:37:25,862 --> 00:37:30,862
Speaker 2: everybody was, what the hell why was this guy? What

598
00:37:30,942 --> 00:37:34,942
Speaker 2: does probation mean? If you can commit an accessory to murder,

599
00:37:35,302 --> 00:37:40,382
Speaker 2: we'll get charged with it. And people the courts putting

600
00:37:40,622 --> 00:37:43,822
Speaker 2: the freedom of a man like that over the safety

601
00:37:43,862 --> 00:37:47,662
Speaker 2: of pretty much everyone in his space, because no one

602
00:37:47,782 --> 00:37:51,502
Speaker 2: is safe from him. And this became contentious later on,

603
00:37:51,582 --> 00:37:55,222
Speaker 2: and I know Louisa is so angry about this because

604
00:37:55,342 --> 00:37:58,062
Speaker 2: when he took the two women out to the kitchen.

605
00:37:58,222 --> 00:38:00,862
Speaker 2: So they left for the first time that day and

606
00:38:00,902 --> 00:38:04,222
Speaker 2: took the women out to the kitchen. She read something

607
00:38:04,262 --> 00:38:08,902
Speaker 2: in his behavior that she was terrified that he was

608
00:38:08,942 --> 00:38:12,742
Speaker 2: going to sexually assault them. There was something that she

609
00:38:13,462 --> 00:38:17,422
Speaker 2: and she basically squeezed her eyes shut and prayed, Dear God,

610
00:38:17,502 --> 00:38:20,262
Speaker 2: don't let him hurt those two young women. And I

611
00:38:20,302 --> 00:38:25,302
Speaker 2: think that's why she missed the initial scrambling of the escape,

612
00:38:25,542 --> 00:38:28,142
Speaker 2: because she had her eyes squeezed shut praying for these

613
00:38:28,182 --> 00:38:28,902
Speaker 2: two girls.

614
00:38:29,702 --> 00:38:34,982
Speaker 1: Well, it was basically determined that Monas wasn't overly dangerous

615
00:38:34,982 --> 00:38:37,862
Speaker 1: in this lint cafe situation. They didn't think he would

616
00:38:37,862 --> 00:38:42,222
Speaker 1: actually kill because one he was an accessory, he didn't murder,

617
00:38:42,382 --> 00:38:45,102
Speaker 1: and then they weren't taking into account all of these

618
00:38:45,862 --> 00:38:47,862
Speaker 1: sexual assaults. That's a violent.

619
00:38:47,662 --> 00:38:53,622
Speaker 2: Act, yeah, and even the violence and you can watch

620
00:38:53,622 --> 00:38:57,502
Speaker 2: footage of this has been reported where he is filming

621
00:38:57,542 --> 00:38:59,542
Speaker 2: his children on the day that his wife is about

622
00:38:59,542 --> 00:39:04,102
Speaker 2: to be murdered by Amir Drudus. And obviously they've planned, Hey,

623
00:39:04,182 --> 00:39:08,262
Speaker 2: here's a knife, he's fuel because she put I think

624
00:39:08,302 --> 00:39:10,222
Speaker 2: it was petrol on her and set her on fire.

625
00:39:10,582 --> 00:39:12,862
Speaker 2: So this is an act that they would have both

626
00:39:12,902 --> 00:39:16,102
Speaker 2: planned together and he says, I'll be over the other

627
00:39:16,142 --> 00:39:19,262
Speaker 2: side of town. And the fact that he's filming his

628
00:39:19,422 --> 00:39:22,942
Speaker 2: kids playing and laughing and looking at them thinking I'm

629
00:39:22,982 --> 00:39:27,542
Speaker 2: just about to murder your beloved mother. I mean, that's

630
00:39:27,582 --> 00:39:32,262
Speaker 2: pretty cold. And I don't know if you've got that

631
00:39:32,342 --> 00:39:35,702
Speaker 2: in in you, you've got it in you. But this

632
00:39:35,862 --> 00:39:39,262
Speaker 2: constant sort of downplaying by the people that were making

633
00:39:39,302 --> 00:39:43,782
Speaker 2: the decisions, Oh no, he's not dangerous, and every indicator

634
00:39:43,942 --> 00:39:49,462
Speaker 2: and every escaped hostage is screaming he's dangerous, and they

635
00:39:49,702 --> 00:39:52,702
Speaker 2: just some of them were described as all were They're

636
00:39:52,742 --> 00:39:56,062
Speaker 2: just hysterical, like, yeah, because he's dangerous.

637
00:39:59,142 --> 00:40:01,462
Speaker 1: Up next, I ask Vicky what some of the biggest

638
00:40:01,502 --> 00:40:09,582
Speaker 1: revelations after the Sydney siege were. There were forty five

639
00:40:09,662 --> 00:40:12,262
Speaker 1: findings from the in quest, which is an insane amount,

640
00:40:12,302 --> 00:40:17,382
Speaker 1: But what did the inquest find in regards to this look.

641
00:40:17,422 --> 00:40:20,782
Speaker 2: I think the most important findings of all the people

642
00:40:20,822 --> 00:40:25,262
Speaker 2: that I've interviewed were the ones that weren't found because

643
00:40:25,622 --> 00:40:28,462
Speaker 2: the bail, the whole why he was on bail that

644
00:40:28,742 --> 00:40:34,262
Speaker 2: wasn't something that people felt in interviews was addressed. I

645
00:40:34,302 --> 00:40:41,622
Speaker 2: think that everybody just wanted to say, if this happens again,

646
00:40:43,182 --> 00:40:45,422
Speaker 2: are we prepared for it? Because that's a concern that

647
00:40:45,502 --> 00:40:50,022
Speaker 2: Louisa had when she said, I don't they did so

648
00:40:50,142 --> 00:40:52,982
Speaker 2: many things that could have been done better. Are they

649
00:40:53,022 --> 00:40:56,942
Speaker 2: prepared for it next time? So? I think the criticism

650
00:40:57,022 --> 00:41:02,542
Speaker 2: of the whole inquest that I've heard was that it

651
00:41:02,622 --> 00:41:05,462
Speaker 2: didn't address publicly the things that it needed to. So

652
00:41:05,462 --> 00:41:09,462
Speaker 2: of course all the tactical stuff was not addressed openly,

653
00:41:10,182 --> 00:41:15,222
Speaker 2: and I think that that was one of the main

654
00:41:16,182 --> 00:41:19,662
Speaker 2: difficulties for people involved. It didn't feel closed.

655
00:41:20,222 --> 00:41:22,822
Speaker 1: When you say it wasn't open. A lot of it

656
00:41:22,822 --> 00:41:25,342
Speaker 1: was under suppression, so the point didn't get to hear it.

657
00:41:25,742 --> 00:41:30,862
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, So with a suppression around tiptoeing

658
00:41:30,862 --> 00:41:34,422
Speaker 2: around all of the tactical stuff. One thing that really

659
00:41:34,462 --> 00:41:38,102
Speaker 2: stood out to me was when Louisa and her mum

660
00:41:38,222 --> 00:41:44,782
Speaker 2: were sitting in court and they heard that the only

661
00:41:44,862 --> 00:41:48,102
Speaker 2: way that the police would go in under an emergency

662
00:41:48,142 --> 00:41:50,862
Speaker 2: action is if someone was in the immediate threat of

663
00:41:50,942 --> 00:41:54,782
Speaker 2: dying or if someone had been killed. And Louisa talks

664
00:41:54,982 --> 00:41:59,622
Speaker 2: about her mother turning to her and saying, Louisa, they

665
00:41:59,622 --> 00:42:04,062
Speaker 2: were never coming for us, and that realization Louisa said,

666
00:42:04,302 --> 00:42:06,182
Speaker 2: she goes, I think it broke something in my mum

667
00:42:06,222 --> 00:42:09,502
Speaker 2: that day that she realized that you could be taken

668
00:42:09,502 --> 00:42:11,902
Speaker 2: hostage in the heart of Sydney and the police are

669
00:42:11,942 --> 00:42:14,382
Speaker 2: never going to come in until one of you dies.

670
00:42:15,022 --> 00:42:17,462
Speaker 1: Has that changed since the siege, though.

671
00:42:17,622 --> 00:42:21,502
Speaker 2: I don't know. I really hope it has, because I

672
00:42:21,622 --> 00:42:24,942
Speaker 2: think that all of them were sitting there all day saying,

673
00:42:24,982 --> 00:42:26,782
Speaker 2: the police are coming, the police are coming, we know

674
00:42:26,822 --> 00:42:28,262
Speaker 2: they're there. They're going to come and get us, They're

675
00:42:28,262 --> 00:42:30,302
Speaker 2: going to come and rescue us, and they just didn't.

676
00:42:30,902 --> 00:42:34,262
Speaker 2: And I think that's why when Jared, when it hits

677
00:42:34,302 --> 00:42:37,182
Speaker 2: that sort of two am and he has an opportunity

678
00:42:37,222 --> 00:42:40,702
Speaker 2: to run, he just says run because I don't. I

679
00:42:40,742 --> 00:42:43,462
Speaker 2: think they had lost all hope after sixteen hours that

680
00:42:43,542 --> 00:42:46,862
Speaker 2: the police who were standing right outside aren't coming in.

681
00:42:47,382 --> 00:42:49,982
Speaker 2: But of course I don't think anyone understood the pressure

682
00:42:50,022 --> 00:42:52,262
Speaker 2: of someone like Ben. This why it's great to hear

683
00:42:52,302 --> 00:42:55,182
Speaker 2: his story when he says, we want they want us

684
00:42:55,182 --> 00:42:57,502
Speaker 2: to go in. We wanted to go in. We just

685
00:42:57,542 --> 00:43:00,342
Speaker 2: didn't get the order. And all of them have talked

686
00:43:00,382 --> 00:43:03,142
Speaker 2: about can we just go in anyway? Like can we

687
00:43:03,222 --> 00:43:06,222
Speaker 2: just do it? But of course they can't. They're under

688
00:43:06,302 --> 00:43:09,942
Speaker 2: orders and so that whole wanting to go in. It

689
00:43:09,982 --> 00:43:12,022
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with bravery, It had nothing to

690
00:43:12,062 --> 00:43:15,302
Speaker 2: do with the desire to not go in. They wanted

691
00:43:15,342 --> 00:43:17,582
Speaker 2: to go in, and the hostages wanted them to go in,

692
00:43:18,142 --> 00:43:19,222
Speaker 2: just didn't get the order.

693
00:43:20,342 --> 00:43:24,142
Speaker 1: Some of the other findings from the inquest were they

694
00:43:24,142 --> 00:43:27,382
Speaker 1: did find that they should have taken action earlier. By earlier,

695
00:43:27,422 --> 00:43:31,862
Speaker 1: they mean two three, not two thirteen. There was a

696
00:43:31,902 --> 00:43:35,742
Speaker 1: basic failure from the hostage calls who were trying to

697
00:43:35,782 --> 00:43:38,502
Speaker 1: get out to the negotiators at one point because they

698
00:43:38,502 --> 00:43:41,302
Speaker 1: were in a handover, so they were missing the calls

699
00:43:41,542 --> 00:43:46,022
Speaker 1: from the hostages. There was a finding that the negotiators

700
00:43:46,062 --> 00:43:50,822
Speaker 1: lacked experience in a domestic siege situation. It was ruled

701
00:43:50,822 --> 00:43:53,502
Speaker 1: that Katrina Dawson's death was an accident, that there was

702
00:43:53,502 --> 00:43:57,982
Speaker 1: no excessive force by police. We've mentioned the bail application

703
00:43:58,182 --> 00:44:02,302
Speaker 1: that was found to be inadequate, and there was a

704
00:44:02,382 --> 00:44:05,702
Speaker 1: lack of a media deal. That kind of compromised safety

705
00:44:05,862 --> 00:44:09,022
Speaker 1: was another finding, which are all kind of things tick

706
00:44:09,062 --> 00:44:12,022
Speaker 1: tick tick we wanted to see. Another one was that

707
00:44:12,142 --> 00:44:16,462
Speaker 1: snipers were unduly restricted. But I guess you can make

708
00:44:16,502 --> 00:44:21,502
Speaker 1: all of these findings. The point is, did anything change

709
00:44:21,782 --> 00:44:25,382
Speaker 1: has anything changed since? Would this just happen again?

710
00:44:26,662 --> 00:44:29,342
Speaker 2: It's the big question, isn't it? Would it happen again?

711
00:44:30,942 --> 00:44:34,982
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know how prepared we can

712
00:44:35,062 --> 00:44:39,062
Speaker 2: be for something like that. And it's interesting to see

713
00:44:39,342 --> 00:44:44,382
Speaker 2: for the tenth anniversary senior police being interviewed and they

714
00:44:44,622 --> 00:44:48,462
Speaker 2: all talk about what did we learn from this? And hopefully,

715
00:44:49,062 --> 00:44:51,022
Speaker 2: of course they don't want this to happen again. I

716
00:44:51,022 --> 00:44:57,022
Speaker 2: think this has affected everybody and I would hope that

717
00:44:57,062 --> 00:45:02,222
Speaker 2: this wouldn't happen again. But everything's These cases are such

718
00:45:02,262 --> 00:45:04,742
Speaker 2: individual cases, aren't they. We had a case in Melbourne

719
00:45:04,742 --> 00:45:09,222
Speaker 2: where a man just drives down the Burk Street mall

720
00:45:09,342 --> 00:45:12,502
Speaker 2: and just runs people over. I mean, until this happens,

721
00:45:12,942 --> 00:45:16,502
Speaker 2: you can never imagine it happening, and once it has

722
00:45:16,902 --> 00:45:19,142
Speaker 2: is scrambling to say what can we learn from it?

723
00:45:19,822 --> 00:45:25,022
Speaker 2: But until the next unbelievable thing happens, we're still I

724
00:45:25,022 --> 00:45:27,702
Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know. You would see it in

725
00:45:27,742 --> 00:45:30,222
Speaker 2: the media, you just go who would have thought that

726
00:45:30,422 --> 00:45:34,782
Speaker 2: thing would have happened? And then it does, and you know,

727
00:45:35,262 --> 00:45:37,382
Speaker 2: just learn lessons. But those lessons may or may not

728
00:45:37,542 --> 00:45:41,782
Speaker 2: be applicable to the next unusual thing that happens.

729
00:45:43,062 --> 00:45:47,102
Speaker 1: What have been the ramifications for both sides, for the

730
00:45:47,142 --> 00:45:51,062
Speaker 1: hostages and for the people like Ben that were on

731
00:45:51,102 --> 00:45:56,462
Speaker 1: the other side. What if their lives looked like in

732
00:45:56,502 --> 00:45:57,462
Speaker 1: the last ten years.

733
00:45:58,502 --> 00:46:01,022
Speaker 2: I think all of them would have been changed that night,

734
00:46:01,662 --> 00:46:03,742
Speaker 2: and all of them would have been left to deal

735
00:46:03,782 --> 00:46:08,702
Speaker 2: with the fallout. Ben's fallout was in particular the fact

736
00:46:08,782 --> 00:46:12,582
Speaker 2: that I think he seems a little bit traumatized from

737
00:46:12,702 --> 00:46:16,222
Speaker 2: actually shooting the terrorist, because he talks about even though

738
00:46:16,262 --> 00:46:19,142
Speaker 2: that was his goal was to take down somebody, but

739
00:46:19,542 --> 00:46:22,822
Speaker 2: when he's looking down on somebody who he has killed,

740
00:46:23,342 --> 00:46:27,782
Speaker 2: you don't do that without it making a difference to you.

741
00:46:28,542 --> 00:46:34,622
Speaker 2: And certainly the death of Katrina I don't. I think

742
00:46:34,702 --> 00:46:37,662
Speaker 2: that's still something that if you talk to him about that,

743
00:46:37,742 --> 00:46:41,702
Speaker 2: the emotion just rises to the surface, as it would,

744
00:46:41,822 --> 00:46:45,902
Speaker 2: and that's something that he may never be able to

745
00:46:46,862 --> 00:46:50,262
Speaker 2: free himself from. He's certainly doing the you know, all

746
00:46:50,342 --> 00:46:53,902
Speaker 2: of the work to free himself of the absolute and

747
00:46:54,022 --> 00:47:01,742
Speaker 2: utter torture and blame, and his ramifications will go on forever.

748
00:47:02,262 --> 00:47:06,742
Speaker 2: Somebody like Louisa, I think her learning from this and

749
00:47:06,782 --> 00:47:10,942
Speaker 2: her generosity is something that she will continue to develop.

750
00:47:11,382 --> 00:47:15,582
Speaker 2: And she speaks of of course she's angry at things

751
00:47:15,622 --> 00:47:18,542
Speaker 2: like the bail, and of course she's angry at things

752
00:47:18,542 --> 00:47:22,462
Speaker 2: that happened, But at the same time, her generosity and

753
00:47:22,542 --> 00:47:29,782
Speaker 2: her ability to thrive moving forward is just awesome to watch.

754
00:47:30,502 --> 00:47:33,582
Speaker 2: And I don't think any of them, I mean, physically,

755
00:47:33,702 --> 00:47:37,622
Speaker 2: she didn't remain unscathed. Her mother didn't remain unscathed. Her

756
00:47:37,662 --> 00:47:40,662
Speaker 2: mother took shrapnel to the shoulder and it took her

757
00:47:40,702 --> 00:47:44,022
Speaker 2: hearing in one of her ears, and Louisa was hit

758
00:47:44,062 --> 00:47:48,102
Speaker 2: with shrapnel as well, and so along with the scars

759
00:47:48,462 --> 00:47:51,582
Speaker 2: of the injuries that pretty much most of the people

760
00:47:51,622 --> 00:47:53,542
Speaker 2: that were in the cafe when the police came in

761
00:47:53,902 --> 00:48:00,702
Speaker 2: were injured. But I think they carry so many things,

762
00:48:00,742 --> 00:48:03,902
Speaker 2: Like the people that escaped early. I've seen interviews with

763
00:48:03,942 --> 00:48:06,022
Speaker 2: them when they talk about the guilt that they carry

764
00:48:06,062 --> 00:48:09,342
Speaker 2: that they got out early. And I loved Louisa's response

765
00:48:09,382 --> 00:48:11,582
Speaker 2: when I asked her about that, she said, that is

766
00:48:11,742 --> 00:48:13,062
Speaker 2: not their burden to carry.

767
00:48:13,862 --> 00:48:16,702
Speaker 1: You and your co host talk about how it is

768
00:48:16,742 --> 00:48:19,902
Speaker 1: a big ethical question like do you stay or do

769
00:48:19,942 --> 00:48:22,382
Speaker 1: you leave, and potentially put them at risk, like it

770
00:48:22,462 --> 00:48:25,142
Speaker 1: is a big thing to kind of grapple with. Well,

771
00:48:25,182 --> 00:48:26,942
Speaker 1: not in Louise's eyes anyway.

772
00:48:27,142 --> 00:48:31,462
Speaker 2: Well, in her eyes, she said, those men escaped, they

773
00:48:31,542 --> 00:48:34,782
Speaker 2: had families. They had two of them I think had

774
00:48:34,782 --> 00:48:38,302
Speaker 2: little children. And she said, of course they need to

775
00:48:38,342 --> 00:48:41,662
Speaker 2: do the best thing that they can do for themselves

776
00:48:41,702 --> 00:48:45,622
Speaker 2: and their families. And she said that is not their

777
00:48:45,662 --> 00:48:48,382
Speaker 2: burden to carry. And I thought, what a generous way

778
00:48:48,422 --> 00:48:52,782
Speaker 2: of looking at that in saying, I don't hold a grudge,

779
00:48:53,182 --> 00:48:55,742
Speaker 2: And it's one that you just don't know what you

780
00:48:55,822 --> 00:48:58,622
Speaker 2: do unless you're in that situation. I think the two

781
00:48:58,662 --> 00:49:04,062
Speaker 2: young girls that escaped were so utterly terrified, vomit, sick,

782
00:49:04,222 --> 00:49:07,542
Speaker 2: terrified that they just had to get out, And so

783
00:49:07,662 --> 00:49:11,342
Speaker 2: who knows how you would react that situation.

784
00:49:12,342 --> 00:49:15,182
Speaker 1: Ben has only written his book His Side of Things

785
00:49:15,222 --> 00:49:19,302
Speaker 1: in recent years, and reflecting on it myself, I would

786
00:49:19,382 --> 00:49:24,542
Speaker 1: argue that many people's opinions of the siege would be

787
00:49:24,582 --> 00:49:28,782
Speaker 1: stuck from the time that it happened. You know, in

788
00:49:28,822 --> 00:49:31,342
Speaker 1: their heads, it's the criticism of the police, it's the

789
00:49:31,462 --> 00:49:35,142
Speaker 1: thinking of the hostages. They're not thinking from Ben's side

790
00:49:35,142 --> 00:49:38,662
Speaker 1: of things or that side of things. Do you think

791
00:49:38,702 --> 00:49:43,262
Speaker 1: that's why it's so important, ten years on to continue

792
00:49:43,302 --> 00:49:46,702
Speaker 1: talking about this, to elevate the stories that we perhaps

793
00:49:46,742 --> 00:49:49,662
Speaker 1: haven't heard all these years.

794
00:49:49,382 --> 00:49:53,142
Speaker 2: On Oh definitely, Like you were saying, you've covered the

795
00:49:53,182 --> 00:49:57,622
Speaker 2: case and you're learning things, and I think that's the same.

796
00:49:57,702 --> 00:49:59,262
Speaker 2: It would be the same for Luisa and Ben that

797
00:49:59,262 --> 00:50:01,742
Speaker 2: they're learning things from each other, and they're learning things

798
00:50:01,742 --> 00:50:04,022
Speaker 2: from the tenth anniversary, and they might see interviews that

799
00:50:04,142 --> 00:50:06,062
Speaker 2: they might go, oh, that's a piece of the puzzle

800
00:50:06,062 --> 00:50:11,022
Speaker 2: that I didn't know. But I think that when you

801
00:50:11,582 --> 00:50:17,062
Speaker 2: revisit them, we don't revisit them too. It's not salacious.

802
00:50:17,302 --> 00:50:21,782
Speaker 2: We revisit this to tell a story of trauma and survival,

803
00:50:23,262 --> 00:50:27,182
Speaker 2: and we tell the story to commemorate the ones that

804
00:50:27,222 --> 00:50:30,342
Speaker 2: were lost. And I think if this can happen in

805
00:50:30,382 --> 00:50:32,702
Speaker 2: the heart of the city and you don't commemorate it,

806
00:50:33,542 --> 00:50:37,342
Speaker 2: where's your heart? So I always think these stories are

807
00:50:37,382 --> 00:50:41,662
Speaker 2: important to tell.

808
00:50:41,742 --> 00:50:43,862
Speaker 1: There have been a number of changes that have come

809
00:50:43,902 --> 00:50:47,142
Speaker 1: into place since the siege unfolded in twenty fourteen. I

810
00:50:47,262 --> 00:50:50,862
Speaker 1: wanted to touch on a few of them. In twenty seventeen,

811
00:50:50,902 --> 00:50:53,542
Speaker 1: the new South Wales government Pastor Law, which allows the

812
00:50:53,542 --> 00:50:58,422
Speaker 1: Commissioner to authorize lethal force in a terrorism event. Bail

813
00:50:58,502 --> 00:51:01,862
Speaker 1: laws were changed so that someone must be refused if

814
00:51:01,902 --> 00:51:06,062
Speaker 1: they're fighting a terrorism charge. The Australian Defense Force now

815
00:51:06,062 --> 00:51:09,302
Speaker 1: have a team of combat trained commandos stationed in Sydney

816
00:51:09,662 --> 00:51:12,182
Speaker 1: in response to the criticism they didn't coordinate well on

817
00:51:12,222 --> 00:51:15,502
Speaker 1: the night with local police and New South Wales Police

818
00:51:15,542 --> 00:51:19,262
Speaker 1: have overhauled a number of strategies. They've invested in more

819
00:51:19,302 --> 00:51:23,742
Speaker 1: weapons and armor. Their negotiating unit looks completely different, and

820
00:51:23,782 --> 00:51:27,222
Speaker 1: their terror strategies now allow them to more aggressively pursue

821
00:51:27,302 --> 00:51:31,942
Speaker 1: armed defenders even before heavily armed tactical officers arrive, which

822
00:51:31,982 --> 00:51:34,462
Speaker 1: is something we saw being used earlier this year when

823
00:51:34,462 --> 00:51:37,662
Speaker 1: Inspector Amy Scott fatally shot the man responsible for the

824
00:51:37,702 --> 00:51:41,742
Speaker 1: Bondai Junction stabbing spree in April. Many would argue more

825
00:51:41,782 --> 00:51:44,702
Speaker 1: could be done in regards to the laws, the police,

826
00:51:44,862 --> 00:51:47,502
Speaker 1: and even the media's involvement in events such as this,

827
00:51:48,742 --> 00:51:51,742
Speaker 1: But ten years on top police say it's an event

828
00:51:51,902 --> 00:51:57,502
Speaker 1: in our nation's history that they do continue to learn from.

829
00:51:57,662 --> 00:51:59,702
Speaker 1: Thanks to Vicki petrad Us for helping us to tell

830
00:51:59,702 --> 00:52:03,462
Speaker 1: this story. The first five episodes of The Unthinkable are

831
00:52:03,502 --> 00:52:06,742
Speaker 1: out now and available wherever you listen to your podcasts.

832
00:52:06,982 --> 00:52:10,582
Speaker 1: Episodes are released every Sunday. True Crime Conversations is a

833
00:52:10,622 --> 00:52:13,542
Speaker 1: Muma mea podcast hosted and produced by me Jemma Bath

834
00:52:13,662 --> 00:52:17,822
Speaker 1: and Tarlie Blackman, with audio design by Jacob Brown. Thanks

835
00:52:17,822 --> 00:52:20,262
Speaker 1: so much for listening. I'll be back next week with

836
00:52:20,342 --> 00:52:21,742
Speaker 1: another true crime conversation