Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mama Mia out Loud and to our Friday show. Will
Speaker 2: we take a break from the.
Speaker 1: News cycle and breathe out?
Speaker 2: I don't know why that's funny. It was the way
Speaker 2: that Jesse did it.
Speaker 1: It was like an anxious and also just under sufferance
Speaker 1: most because.
Speaker 2: I actually don't do it now, no performativeness. Today it's Friday,
Speaker 2: the twentieth of September, and I am Holly way right.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's the anniversary of the first time I gave birth,
Speaker 1: also known as my eldest son's birthday.
Speaker 3: Ah, happy congratulations.
Speaker 1: Do you know when you've got a few kids and
Speaker 1: I'm not good at numbers, and I just can't remember
Speaker 1: everybody's birthday, But very occasionally there'll be a date and
Speaker 1: I'll just go, I remember that one. Better call them anyway.
Speaker 4: What are you doing tonight with your husband, Jesse? Since
Speaker 4: you're we're going to Where's Sun? While we're going out
Speaker 4: to dinner with may Or aren't.
Speaker 3: We she booked it? Well that's done, yep. I want
Speaker 3: to come, Holly, I'm very busy.
Speaker 2: On the show today, Tim Minchin regrets one of his
Speaker 2: most famous songs, and it tells us a lot about
Speaker 2: where culture has moved to. Also recommendations for the weekend.
Speaker 2: It includes a book, two TV shows and an album,
Speaker 2: So we've got all senses covered and sleepovers, dinner with teens,
Speaker 2: and stomach parasites. Yes, it's best and worst, But first,
Speaker 2: Mia Friedman, in case.
Speaker 1: You missed it, winged eyeliner is the new skinny jean.
Speaker 1: Let's unpack that sentence, shall we. There's another core piece
Speaker 1: of the millennial uniform that is now highly unfashionable according
Speaker 1: to gen Z, who just love trolling their millennial elders.
Speaker 1: And this just makes me laugh a huge amount because
Speaker 1: Jesse's looking already uncomfortable because people have just forgotten about us.
Speaker 1: Gen X's Holly, and there's a war breaking out between
Speaker 1: gen Z, who have first mocked the millennials for their
Speaker 1: skinny jeans, then for their invisible socks, and now it's
Speaker 1: for their winged eyeliner. For about a year, the Internet's
Speaker 1: been debating about whether or not winged eyeliner is out
Speaker 1: of style. Many argued that the makeup trend was timeless,
Speaker 1: but according to gen z z Z it's officially the
Speaker 1: skinny jeans of makeup. And we just wanted to say, Jesse,
Speaker 1: are you okay?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 4: Firstly, I don't do wing line because it doesn't suit
Speaker 4: me as never suited my eyes. But secondly, twenty year olds,
Speaker 4: I think you do actually need No, I don't. I
Speaker 4: don't do a wing. I do a bit of eyeliner
Speaker 4: on the top. I can't to do a wing No,
Speaker 4: it doesn't work with my eye shape. And this is
Speaker 4: my whole point about makeup and trends. It's bullshit. And
Speaker 4: twenty year old need to stop telling me how to
Speaker 4: do my makeup because your face is different to my face.
Speaker 4: They keep yelling about blush placement. I saw gen Z's
Speaker 4: recently tried to cancel under a concealer.
Speaker 3: And I shadow.
Speaker 1: That's easy when you're twenty.
Speaker 4: That's easy when you have no responsibilities. Try and not
Speaker 4: sleeping and then not doing under. I can seel like
Speaker 4: you don't know what my under eyes look like.
Speaker 1: I cancel what I shadow a long time ago because
Speaker 1: it's actually really hard to apply properly. That's why cream
Speaker 1: I shadow is much better.
Speaker 2: I just don't think that was just.
Speaker 1: A personal cancelation. Put on whatever you want to.
Speaker 4: I don't care where the youth have a hold on
Speaker 4: what we can and cannot wear. I'm going on strike. No,
Speaker 4: I will do what needs to be done, because I
Speaker 4: don't think that if you are not twenty, then you
Speaker 4: should be taking advice. Like even they're like their blush,
Speaker 4: you should always put it on your nose, and you
Speaker 4: should be putting it on your I.
Speaker 3: See them put blush on their forehead.
Speaker 2: I know there's a lot of blush on the forehead
Speaker 2: going on. I just want to pull one out for
Speaker 2: our producer M because our producer and wears wing eye
Speaker 2: Lina every day and I don't think i've ever seen
Speaker 2: you without it, M, and you look great with it.
Speaker 2: It's very much part of your vibe. Are you going
Speaker 2: to stop wearing.
Speaker 1: You wear skinny jeans, so she's feeling.
Speaker 2: Particularly stop wearing it because people are pointing and laughing
Speaker 2: at you in the street.
Speaker 1: No, I'm going to keep wearing it because I feel
Speaker 1: like it's a part of my identity. I just don't
Speaker 1: know how you can do it, Like I'm in awe
Speaker 1: of anyone you can skill yeah, if the skill involved,
Speaker 1: and if I could do it, I would be doing
Speaker 1: it as a flex every day.
Speaker 2: I've been doing it for many years, so I think
Speaker 2: it just.
Speaker 1: Comes with practice. What's the trick. It's a product that
Speaker 1: I started using. It's just the Mabelene liquid eyeliner. It's
Speaker 1: really easy to do, but no point recommending that now
Speaker 1: because it's not call anything. It'll be on sale soon probably.
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift is very fond of the wing eyeline looks,
Speaker 1: so you're in good company.
Speaker 4: Tim Minchin has some feedback for Tim Minchin. Eight years ago,
Speaker 4: the writer, comedian, singer, songwriter, satirist wrote a song about
Speaker 4: George Pelp.
Speaker 1: A lot of.
Speaker 5: People here, George, I really think your does get on up.
Speaker 5: We are just want you to come home. Card Pell,
Speaker 5: I know you're nothing and much fun even so we
Speaker 5: think you should come Hell.
Speaker 4: At the time was accused of child's ex abuse, and
Speaker 4: he's since been acquitted. But Minchin, known for his satire,
Speaker 4: wrote the song and it was about inviting Pell to
Speaker 4: come home and face his accusers, and he raised money.
Speaker 4: The song was raising money as well to send the
Speaker 4: alleged victims over to see Pell in Rome. You know
Speaker 4: co yeah, it was great song.
Speaker 2: And also just to clarify, it was the victims of
Speaker 2: a priest that Hell was supposed to have protected.
Speaker 3: Got it, yes, right.
Speaker 4: The song was viewed millions of times, and speaking to
Speaker 4: Good Weekend Talks, Mintionin said.
Speaker 6: I've been part of massive public shaming with pell and
Speaker 6: stuff and stuff. I reflect on now and what are
Speaker 6: the possible unintended consequences? And now we have ten years
Speaker 6: of data, twelve years of data, and the unintended consequence
Speaker 6: is a divided nation. Probably we should be very very
Speaker 6: careful with public shah as a rule, because how why
Speaker 6: are you the moral arbiter? Public shaming cannot be the
Speaker 6: primary mechanism because it will just it'll come for you.
Speaker 4: Mention has a new book out, and he has spoken
Speaker 4: on this interview and across other media about his issues
Speaker 4: with wokeness, and he has been self critical of his
Speaker 4: own and this is his words, performative righteousness.
Speaker 1: What's his book about?
Speaker 6: Is this?
Speaker 1: What his book's about?
Speaker 4: His book is actually three different addresses he has given
Speaker 4: to universities and stuff when he's like spoken, so they're
Speaker 4: like speeches, and I think one of them is about
Speaker 4: like nine lessons for life, and he's compiled them into
Speaker 4: this book.
Speaker 1: Actually, funnily enough, I watched that on YouTube just the
Speaker 1: other day. He gave it about ten years ago, and
Speaker 1: it was really interesting because I've got to give a
Speaker 1: speech night speech, and I was looking for ideas and
Speaker 1: it's actually fantastic. Oh, it's still the test of time.
Speaker 1: We'll pop it in the newsletter this week.
Speaker 4: Well, this echoes a conversation I heard recently on No Filter,
Speaker 4: where you maya interviewed Africa Brook, who wrote a viral
Speaker 4: open Legs in twenty twenty one titled why I'm leaving
Speaker 4: the Cult of Wokeness, And while criticizing wokeness isn't necessarily new,
Speaker 4: what we are seeing more of is self proclaimed lefties
Speaker 4: or progressives announced that they are leaving the party. Mia,
Speaker 4: Why do you think that is?
Speaker 1: I've left the party because I think that in many
Speaker 1: ways the left has become. It used to be the
Speaker 1: right that was very in favor of censorship and silencing
Speaker 1: people and shutting people down, and they still are, I
Speaker 1: guess in a way.
Speaker 2: They like to burn books and ban them from libraries
Speaker 2: and take away women's rights, so they do still quite
Speaker 2: like to cancel things.
Speaker 1: Actually, that's true. But what the left does is, to me,
Speaker 1: cancelation is different to like book banning or anything, because
Speaker 1: it's cloaked in this fake virtue. Maybe it's real virtue.
Speaker 1: To me, there's a lot of of tribal virtue signaling
Speaker 1: and moral purity and saying you're not pure enough, you're
Speaker 1: not pure enough. And then eventually, then, as Tim Minchin
Speaker 1: pointed out, eventually everybody will get canceled because no one
Speaker 1: is pure enough, right, so there will always be someone
Speaker 1: that is less privileged than news.
Speaker 4: So do you think that that is part of why
Speaker 4: we're seeing progressives put the hand up and go I'm
Speaker 4: done with wokeness because it came for everyone eventually. Like
Speaker 4: because if you see Minchin and he's sort of had
Speaker 4: that pel moment, and I'm sure he stands by the
Speaker 4: politics of what he said. It sounds like the platform
Speaker 4: by which he did it, he's kind of going, oh,
Speaker 4: I don't know if that was.
Speaker 1: He does stand by it, and he said, I wrote
Speaker 1: that song after making sure I researched the fact that
Speaker 1: he'd caught all these flights and that he would only
Speaker 1: been examined by a doctor in the Vatican, so I
Speaker 1: guess you could say he gave George Pell the benefit
Speaker 1: of the doubt in some ways, but then it was
Speaker 1: very much about mocking and ridicule and shaming him. People
Speaker 1: would say that perhaps he deserved that, and it's certainly
Speaker 1: how we all felt then and even perhaps now. But
Speaker 1: tim Mentioned's point is that by everybody dog piling onto
Speaker 1: someone who's maybe And again, it's really hard to talk
Speaker 1: about this without because relating a whole lot of different things, right,
Speaker 1: because George Pell and all of that, and Harvey Weinstein
Speaker 1: and all of that, and Luis c. K and all
Speaker 1: of that. You know, there are allegations and sometimes convictions
Speaker 1: of actual crimes. When someone tells a joke that doesn't land,
Speaker 1: or uses a word that perhaps isn't used anymore because
Speaker 1: we now understand it to be offensive to a particular
Speaker 1: group of people. To me, that's very different. That's not
Speaker 1: actually a crime. That might be a mistake, that might
Speaker 1: be reckless, that might be careless, that might be insensitive,
Speaker 1: But often the treatment is flattened and the intention is
Speaker 1: just completely lost.
Speaker 4: Holly, do you think that this is a broader trend?
Speaker 4: Am I imagining it? Or am I seeing more people
Speaker 4: who I would think. I mean, I'm a leftier, just
Speaker 4: am people who are I think I would politically align
Speaker 4: with being more critical of the left.
Speaker 3: Are you saying that?
Speaker 2: I think I don't really understand what leaving the Party
Speaker 2: of Wokeness means. And I understand it in Africa Brooks case.
Speaker 2: I mean, I love that interview, and I've read a
Speaker 2: lot a lot that she has written and listened to
Speaker 2: her a lot. I think she's really interesting. But I
Speaker 2: think that Wokeness has been built up into a boogeyman
Speaker 2: that actually it's fake. I don't think it exists. I
Speaker 2: don't know when you say I've left that party, I
Speaker 2: don't know what it means. What do you mean I've.
Speaker 1: Become increasingly disillusioned? And only because it's become And again
Speaker 1: it's not everybody who is left leaning. I mean they're
Speaker 1: talking big generalizations. There's a mean spirited nastiness and a
Speaker 1: desire to shut people down, even the word cancelation, and
Speaker 1: silence them and deplatform them if you disagree with them.
Speaker 1: And Tim Mention's point is that he says it's not
Speaker 1: particularly constructive when the left calls anyone they disagree with
Speaker 1: a fashion yeah or a racist or a homophom or
Speaker 1: a transpher you can't and some of those people might be.
Speaker 1: But it's become such a.
Speaker 2: Like about leaving behind public shaming, leaving behind sort of flattening,
Speaker 2: of making every issue entirely binary. It's leaving behind shouting
Speaker 2: about causes that you don't know enough about on social.
Speaker 1: Media, moral police.
Speaker 2: Because I think I'd be very happy to leave all
Speaker 2: that behind, and broadly I have. But I think that
Speaker 2: the obsession with wokeness comes from the right, particularly in Australia.
Speaker 2: It's something that the Liberal Party and they love to
Speaker 2: bang on about because it sounds like big and scary
Speaker 2: and it's policing and it's stopping us from saying what
Speaker 2: we want to say. You'll actually see that in America,
Speaker 2: it's become very clear that wokeness has been left out
Speaker 2: of democratic politics in this election that we're looking at.
Speaker 2: You know that from a lot of progressives in Democrats,
Speaker 2: they're like, common has left us behind, and we're not
Speaker 2: talking about identity politics the way that we were four
Speaker 2: years ago or eight years ago. And I think that's true.
Speaker 2: I think one of the problems with the round bashing
Speaker 2: of it as an eye idea is it looks away
Speaker 2: from the moment in time from where it came, right
Speaker 2: like Donald Trump getting elected. And I know we talk
Speaker 2: way too much about America, but it's a cultural atmosphere
Speaker 2: that trickled through everywhere. Right Donald Trump getting elected in
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen really put a lot of people in were terrified.
Speaker 2: Remember the pussy hats and the resistance and that all
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff is it felt like a fight
Speaker 2: or flight moment and whose side are you on? And
Speaker 2: are you on the side of rightness or wrongness? And
Speaker 2: that is always way too simplistic a way to look
Speaker 2: at politics. But on the other hand, it felt like that.
Speaker 2: And if you're a woman who lives in a conservative
Speaker 2: state in the US, it would absolutely still feel like
Speaker 2: that the whole What I completely agree with you, so,
Speaker 2: I mean, so, what I'm trying to get to is
Speaker 2: the point that when we just broadly criticize wokeness, I
Speaker 2: think we kind of ignore that it was an extreme
Speaker 2: reaction to something extreme, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: I agree, And I think what is unfortunate is that
Speaker 1: it's ended up eating itself in that there was a
Speaker 1: situation where there was a man who was elected president
Speaker 1: who talked about grabbing a woman by the pussy and
Speaker 1: all the other awful things that he said. And because
Speaker 1: the world felt so out of control and we were
Speaker 1: so viscerally shocked that someone who could say this in
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen could become president of what purports to be
Speaker 1: the greatest democracy in the world, that the left was
Speaker 1: so shocked by that they couldn't do anything about it.
Speaker 1: So they started trying to control their own tribe, within
Speaker 1: their own tribe. And that's where this idea of censorship
Speaker 1: and moral purity meant. That things got smaller and smaller
Speaker 1: and smaller. So instead of fighting the big fight, and
Speaker 1: you know, while everybody was busy canceling someone who they shared,
Speaker 1: you know, ninety nine percent of the ideology with because
Speaker 1: they used a word or told about joke or whatever,
Speaker 1: Meanwhile Roe versus Wade was taken away and the women's
Speaker 1: right to reproductive choice was taken away. And I understand
Speaker 1: again where it came from, because it came from feeling
Speaker 1: so powerless. I can't control anything in the world, but
Speaker 1: I can cancel this person who said this bad one.
Speaker 2: You've also got to remember that it also coincided with
Speaker 2: obviously broadly with mass social media. And although we can
Speaker 2: be very cynical about social media now, for very good reason,
Speaker 2: it also gave a voice to a whole lot of
Speaker 2: people who we never had to listen to before. Right,
Speaker 2: if you put your mind back to a time when
Speaker 2: the only media was controlled by big organizations and the
Speaker 2: gatekeepers of those things were very from a very specific
Speaker 2: group of people, You've also got to remember that social
Speaker 2: media is a platform for social activism and cause advancement
Speaker 2: in lots of ways has been great. Me too would
Speaker 2: never have happened without it, nor would lots of other
Speaker 2: really positive things. So you give a mic to a
Speaker 2: lot of people who didn't have mics before, and they're
Speaker 2: going to talk about the things that are important to them.
Speaker 2: I think we kind of flatten it when we just
Speaker 2: say it's terrible, don't use social media to express an opinion.
Speaker 1: Now, hang on, hang on. But that's not what waitness is.
Speaker 1: Because everyone's got the right to an opinion, But it's
Speaker 1: the idea of your opinion shouldn't exist if it's different
Speaker 1: to mine, and you're a fascist if it's black.
Speaker 3: And white thinking.
Speaker 4: And I think that it's a definitional issue sometimes because
Speaker 4: it started off. It was derived from African American vernacular English.
Speaker 4: It originally meant alertness to racial prejudice and discrimination.
Speaker 1: It was a compliment, and it was also is literal.
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, sometimes you need your eyes opened. You
Speaker 2: can't see what you can't see.
Speaker 4: But in terms of what it evolved into, and I
Speaker 4: do think it evolved, is that it's now considered sort
Speaker 4: of left wing attitudes or practices that are about opposing
Speaker 4: social injustice or discrimination, but they're viewed as self righteous
Speaker 4: or manitious or insincere.
Speaker 3: And I actually think it has.
Speaker 4: Less to do with Trump and more to do with
Speaker 4: the Internet, like woke, isn't it Generally it's to do
Speaker 4: with the two dimensional black and white view of the
Speaker 4: internet and how most of our sometimes all of our
Speaker 4: discussions are occurring online. And what I think has happened
Speaker 4: is that when you're in it, or maybe it's taking
Speaker 4: a step back, you see that there are a lot
Speaker 4: of logical fallacies or contradictions, or a lot of hypocrisy
Speaker 4: within this ideology that you start going this doesn't make sense.
Speaker 4: If you're about diversity, yet there isn't allowed to be
Speaker 4: any diversity of opinion, Then there's hypocrisy there that frustrates people.
Speaker 2: But there's no diversity of opinion on the other side either.
Speaker 2: Have you been on Twitter lately? Oh?
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 4: But the thing is, with all the and Tim Minchin
Speaker 4: has actually said this, with all the yelling at the right,
Speaker 4: which I am there, like Trump deserves all the criticism
Speaker 4: in the world, it doesn't mean that we don't have
Speaker 4: notes to take.
Speaker 3: Is how he's put it.
Speaker 4: And I think that progressives are also doing a bit
Speaker 4: of soul searching because whatever we've been doing for the
Speaker 4: last decade isn't working. And if you think it is,
Speaker 4: it's like, just look at the state of things. And
Speaker 4: we talked yesterday in the subscriber episode about Trump. It
Speaker 4: briefly came up the Brittany Mahomes and Taylor Swift incident.
Speaker 4: I would think that kind of a wo kism mightyology
Speaker 4: has led us to think that sitting beside someone who
Speaker 4: likes a social media post by a different presidential candidate is.
Speaker 3: Akin to literal evil like and.
Speaker 2: That is just that's not exclusive to the left. Plenty
Speaker 2: of people on the right who think exactly that. Have
Speaker 2: you seen what Donald Trum's been tweeting about Taylor.
Speaker 4: Lot I'm with you, but isn't that just going But
Speaker 4: they do it too, But they do it mean. But
Speaker 4: this is my point, right is I agree with both
Speaker 4: of you entirely about shamy, judgy, pointlessness of infighting and everything.
Speaker 4: But I think that building wokeness up as the enemy,
Speaker 4: to me, is a gift to the real enemy. Who
Speaker 4: are the people want to take us back and take
Speaker 4: back the progress that women and minority groups have made.
Speaker 4: It's a nice easy straw man, in my opinion, to go. Well,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of young, idealistic people shouting on the
Speaker 4: internet who have extreme opinions and they are telling other
Speaker 4: people what to do and calling them out and all
Speaker 4: the things, and that's the enemy, And in my mind,
Speaker 4: they're not actually the people we need to have our
Speaker 4: eyes on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, because I know what has been
Speaker 1: most scarring for me is not being called names by
Speaker 1: people on the right. It's being called names by people
Speaker 1: on the left. And it's not the actual well, it
Speaker 1: is the actual names. It goes to character like it
Speaker 1: goes to your I mean, it's easy to dismiss if
Speaker 1: someone says you're a fat, dumb blah blah whatever. But
Speaker 1: when the left says words like racist, homophobe. I'm not
Speaker 1: talking particularly about me, but about someone fascist. That's very
Speaker 1: different to someone just slagging me off, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. And that's very different too. If someone says, oh,
Speaker 1: you're so woke, it can be dismissive, I agree, and
Speaker 1: it can be weaponary.
Speaker 2: They say groomer, you know, to gay people, they say
Speaker 2: you're a groomer. They is just as divisive.
Speaker 3: You do, think you're right?
Speaker 4: I think that to unpick wocism and put that to
Speaker 4: the side, I actually think Africa Brooks said it perfectly
Speaker 4: on the front cover of her book. She calls it
Speaker 4: the age of intolerance. And that's both.
Speaker 2: That's the issue.
Speaker 3: That's the issue, right, it's in my mind that's there
Speaker 3: because there's.
Speaker 4: Not enough diversity of opinion in any political party and
Speaker 4: any ideology. All of these logical fallacies that we see
Speaker 4: from like slippery slope stuff to the language that we use.
Speaker 4: You know, when you see something on social media or
Speaker 4: you see a trend and you go, this just doesn't
Speaker 4: feel right, like it just doesn't feel true or whatever,
Speaker 4: like you're probably right. So we hear things like silence
Speaker 4: is violence or believe women, which might actually in some
Speaker 4: cases be true and in the correct context work, but
Speaker 4: they don't work in every context, and so there are
Speaker 4: these sort of sprawling generalizations.
Speaker 1: And or an orthodoxy. It's like you have to have
Speaker 1: all of these beliefs, and if you divert from these
Speaker 1: orthodox beliefs that someone is a gatekeeper of we will
Speaker 1: surveil you. We will look at what posts you like,
Speaker 1: We will check to see what you have or haven't posted,
Speaker 1: and we will question your humanity and base you those
Speaker 1: names based on that. And then, yeah, that idea is
Speaker 1: surveillance and control.
Speaker 4: And the danger I suppose is and I think that
Speaker 4: this exists to some extent for a lot of people,
Speaker 4: not just if you're in the public eye, but that
Speaker 4: your whole moral quality or your character is the product
Speaker 4: of what you've put on social media or something, as
Speaker 4: though those two things, as though it's an actual avatar
Speaker 4: for who you are in real life. And everyone that
Speaker 4: we we know is complicated, and we all sit at
Speaker 4: family Christmases beside people who think differently politically to how
Speaker 4: we do, and I think that's really important, and we
Speaker 4: kind of talk about that being important, But then, yeah,
Speaker 4: something happens on social media where it just goes No,
Speaker 4: I think I know the whole person, or I can
Speaker 4: sum you up because of what you have or having.
Speaker 2: Some of us have just figured out that that's not
Speaker 2: the right place to have these conversations. Right, So, if
Speaker 2: I think about myself, obviously I've become increasingly like public
Speaker 2: I suppose obviously over the past decade as I've used
Speaker 2: social media. But even when having opinions about these kind
Speaker 2: of things wasn't part of my job, which it kind
Speaker 2: of is, we sit here and espouse our opinions about
Speaker 2: stuff all the time, right, I would definitely have been
Speaker 2: much more opinionated on social media one hundred percent. Now
Speaker 2: these days, I'm incredibly, incredibly unlikely to express a political
Speaker 2: opinion on Instagram because in my mind it's not the
Speaker 2: place for it. But sometimes that is very hard, like
Speaker 2: as in, there are things that you do believe it,
Speaker 2: very deeply cultural positions that you'd take that would be
Speaker 2: considered political, that you would like to go, look at this, everybody,
Speaker 2: this is outrageous, but you know the storm it will cause,
Speaker 2: and so you don't write. And there's a lot of
Speaker 2: thought which I agree with, that actually the bigger the
Speaker 2: audience you have, and it's not like my audience is massive.
Speaker 2: But the more cautious you have to be about that,
Speaker 2: because your influence is enormous, right, as in much bigger
Speaker 2: than you realize. So I understand that it's a fine line.
Speaker 2: I mean, I would use for myself an example of
Speaker 2: the referendum on the Voice last year. I had really
Speaker 2: strong opinions about that, and obviously on our podcast, shoving
Speaker 2: our opinions down people's throat isn't what we do, even
Speaker 2: though some people might think it is. It's actually not.
Speaker 2: We're very careful about not doing that. But if I
Speaker 2: wasn't as aware as I am of how what an
Speaker 2: unhelpful place that was for conversation, I would have posted
Speaker 2: about that a lot more, and I would have been
Speaker 2: involved in that a lot more. But you knew that
Speaker 2: by doing it you were leading to a divisive conversation, right,
Speaker 2: so you pull yourself back.
Speaker 1: I don't want no one ever had their mind changed
Speaker 1: by being shouted at or no.
Speaker 2: But did they have, well, but didn't know. I agree
Speaker 2: with you that no one's ever had then mine changed
Speaker 2: by being shouted on social media. I agree with that
Speaker 2: so much, the scolding nature. But have I learnt a
Speaker 2: lot of things from seeing other people's perspectives on social
Speaker 2: media that I would never come across in my day
Speaker 2: to day life. One hundred percent. Yes, have I been
Speaker 2: exposed to some really interesting ideas that I go. Do
Speaker 2: I agree with that? Maybe I agree with a bit
Speaker 2: of that, but not that on social media.
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Yes. I don't think that we should be suggesting it
Speaker 2: should just become more to all my tomato plants or
Speaker 2: your shoes or whatever.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I think that we've all told ourselves for a while
Speaker 2: that it was the public square, and what we've realized
Speaker 2: is it's not the public square.
Speaker 1: But away from social media for a second, I want
Speaker 1: to talk to this idea of wokeness and anti wokeness.
Speaker 1: We're seeing a massive divide between the ideology of teenage
Speaker 1: girls and teenage boys, or young girls and young boys,
Speaker 1: and girls are becoming increasingly left and boys are becoming
Speaker 1: increasingly right. And I so see those things connected. And
Speaker 1: anyone who's got a son and a daughter who are
Speaker 1: teenagers or young adults in their own house, we'll see
Speaker 1: how that's playing out in real life in many instances.
Speaker 1: And I think that when you start shaming people and
Speaker 1: telling them they are bad and they are homophobic, and
Speaker 1: they are racist, and they are blah blah because they
Speaker 1: maybe used a word, or when you're writing them off
Speaker 1: and trying to make them feel ashamed, that doesn't bring
Speaker 1: them around. You've always said this about all the studies
Speaker 1: around obesity, and if you stigmatize someone, that doesn't make
Speaker 1: them more likely to make a different choice or to
Speaker 1: lose weight if that's what's required for their health. It
Speaker 1: actually will do often the opposite. Yeah, And I look,
Speaker 1: I think the same for if you shame someone about who.
Speaker 3: They are on both sides.
Speaker 4: I think if you look at history and how whether
Speaker 4: it's civil rights or LGBTQI rights, the only way that
Speaker 4: those things ever happened was because descent was allowed and
Speaker 4: because different opinions were allowed to float to the surface.
Speaker 4: So the people who are going this authoritarian tone where
Speaker 4: we yell at each other and we have groupthink and
Speaker 4: there are things you can say and that there are
Speaker 4: things you can't say. That that's a really dangerous history.
Speaker 4: I agree in pushing back at that. And Tim Mintion
Speaker 4: has also talked about the principle of charity, which I'm
Speaker 4: sure we've talked about on this show before your cousin
Speaker 4: has a podcast by that name Maya. But the principle
Speaker 4: of charity is the philosophical concept that when you hear
Speaker 4: someone else's argument, you give them the benefit of the doubt, essentially,
Speaker 4: and you assume they're coming from a good place, and
Speaker 4: then you go with the argument. But what we're seeing
Speaker 4: increasingly online I've seen people disagree, and I actually think
Speaker 4: the disagreement online is fine, but you've just lost me
Speaker 4: the second that you go, it's laced with ridicule or
Speaker 4: contempt or something ridiculously personal.
Speaker 1: And once you call someone a fascist and say that
Speaker 1: their position is a moral or immoral, the argument's over.
Speaker 1: And so often that's what people do, or they say,
Speaker 1: you need to delete that instead of engaging with the argument.
Speaker 1: They need to say that argument or that point of
Speaker 1: view cannot even be in the world because I can't tolerate.
Speaker 4: I think whatever happens with this election coming up in
Speaker 4: the US, I think that will have a bearing whether
Speaker 4: or not any lessons will learn from twenty sixteen about
Speaker 4: you speaking well, just speaking across the divide. I mean,
Speaker 4: I think that's the biggest cultural issue of our time.
Speaker 2: But here's the thing. The Democrats are trying to do that.
Speaker 2: They have literally put Republicans on their payroll. They are
Speaker 2: literally saying we will put Republicans in our cabinet. They
Speaker 2: are trying to do that. It's not an issue of
Speaker 2: left and right. It's not. It's an issue of intolerance
Speaker 2: and tolerance on both sides. And I think that personally,
Speaker 2: I think workness died a while ago, and it's an insult.
Speaker 1: Now what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: Because I think that that peak woke time was twenty
Speaker 2: twenty twenty twenty twenty twenty two. Maybe I think that
Speaker 2: workners died a while ago, and now it's an insult.
Speaker 2: And personally, I'm not going to let annoying extremists take
Speaker 2: my leftist values from me just because they might want
Speaker 2: to weaponize them. Do you know what I mean? Like
Speaker 2: the idea that somehow you're value use because some people
Speaker 2: weaponize them and use them against other people, that that
Speaker 2: means that your values are wrong. Like I'm not going
Speaker 2: to let that happen.
Speaker 1: Hell, it's time for recommendations, where we're going to tell
Speaker 1: you, you know, how recommendations were, explain what one needs, closing
Speaker 1: the names of recommendation I'm going first. You don't need
Speaker 1: me to tell you this. In Vogue the nineties on
Speaker 1: Disney Plus, what's the defining publication about fashion The Vogue
Speaker 1: Vogue Bowls of course, Bogue's biggest forest an went tour.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm not taking SSEs all now I'm
Speaker 2: going to wear them.
Speaker 1: In the nineties, everything was changing.
Speaker 2: It was a world way too massive, a crazy, amazing,
Speaker 2: astonishing time.
Speaker 6: The nineties terms of fashion industry upside down.
Speaker 1: An outstanding doco. If you liked remember the Supermodels doco
Speaker 1: that I think was on Apple Teby I can't remember.
Speaker 1: We all love that. This is so much better because
Speaker 1: it takes all the main characters from the nineties around
Speaker 1: Anna Wintle, because that's the orbit around which everybody pivots.
Speaker 1: But there's supermodels, there's designers, there's celebrities like Gwyneth Paltrow
Speaker 1: and Sarah Jessica Parker.
Speaker 2: Is it like, have they cooperated? Yeah, they're in it.
Speaker 1: So it's all of those you know, like the format
Speaker 1: of sitting down and you're at a table or you're
Speaker 1: in your house, and so all the different locations. And
Speaker 1: my favorite person is this iconic fashion editor called Carleen
Speaker 1: de fonzel nerf or something. She's French. She's absolutely bonkers
Speaker 1: in the best way. She's wearing these leopard boots. She's
Speaker 1: probably about seventy five guys. Conington's in it, all the
Speaker 1: key stylists that were worked at American Vogue and orbited
Speaker 1: around Anna, and just the things they say, and they
Speaker 1: talk about the George My Call Freedom video. Okay Moss
Speaker 1: is in it, cap Moss. Can I just say it's
Speaker 1: really jarring to hear her talk. Firstly, she sounds like
Speaker 1: she has the worst smokers coffe you've ever heard, Like
Speaker 1: she wheezes. You can just she's parted hard about limit
Speaker 1: of life because she's so iconic. One of the most
Speaker 1: interesting choices, and many say the smartest is that she
Speaker 1: decided a long time ago not to give interviews. This
Speaker 1: is one of the only interviews I've ever heard her give.
Speaker 1: She never almost never speaks, never did through the whole nineties,
Speaker 1: and so she was able to sort of create this
Speaker 1: air of mystery and iconic status. And oh, it's just
Speaker 1: so good.
Speaker 2: It's fourteen hours long.
Speaker 1: I'm up to the third episode. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's quite a few. There's quite a few hours of it.
Speaker 1: In the nineties, a lot of it was like a movie.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 1: No, the nineties were long. So I'm up to about
Speaker 1: episode two or three. But it's glorious.
Speaker 2: I am so hair for your recommendation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Holly, what have you got?
Speaker 2: I'm cheating. I've got two Okay. The only reason I've
Speaker 2: got too is because the first one is gonna be
Speaker 2: real fast, because it's actually you can't explain it right.
Speaker 2: There is a comedy show on ABC iView at the
Speaker 2: minute called Guy Montgomery's Spelling Bee. That is, as it sounds,
Speaker 2: a spelling bee hosted by a Key Week comedian called
Speaker 2: Gay Montgomery.
Speaker 7: Hey, Aaron, how do you spell Australian Broadcasting Corporation ABC.
Speaker 7: It's more of an acronym than a correct spelling, but
Speaker 7: I'll accept it because that's precisely with Viewers will find
Speaker 7: Guy Montgomery's Game on Spelling Bee, the thrilling new show
Speaker 7: that challenges Australia's beers comedians in the ancient art of spelling.
Speaker 7: Join myself and Aaron Chin as we put them to
Speaker 7: the test and watch them squirm.
Speaker 3: I think this show will be totally OMG.
Speaker 7: That is an acronym.
Speaker 2: It is so funny. I watch it with Brent. It's
Speaker 2: like our weekend nighttime treat. I'm like falling off the
Speaker 2: couch laughing. But I can't tell you why.
Speaker 3: Like it's just he is very fun.
Speaker 1: It's just very never him like it's great.
Speaker 2: It's very stupid.
Speaker 1: But it's kids.
Speaker 2: No, it's not kids, it's so it's comedians, and so
Speaker 2: it's all Australian comedians, most of whom can't spell Aaron
Speaker 2: Chen who anyone who watches fisk Oh, I love it.
Speaker 2: It's just unbelievably good. But I can't really explain to
Speaker 2: you why. But if you just want to laugh, go
Speaker 2: watch that. The thing I can tell you about is
Speaker 2: a book that I've actually been dying to tell you
Speaker 2: all about since I read it a while ago. But
Speaker 2: I was waiting for the author to be on mid
Speaker 2: this week, which she was. So it's a book, an
Speaker 2: Australian fiction book called Tilda is Visible by an author
Speaker 2: called Jane Tara. Now it has the best premise of
Speaker 2: a book I've heard of for so long. It is
Speaker 2: not surprising that it is currently subject of a bit
Speaker 2: of a bidding war in Hollywood because it's about a woman,
Speaker 2: a midlife woman who's life's in the toilet. She wakes
Speaker 2: up one day and half her little finger has disappeared.
Speaker 2: It's there, you just can't see it. And she's like what.
Speaker 2: She thinks she's going crazy. And then she wakes up
Speaker 2: the next day and the tip of her ear lobe
Speaker 2: has disappeared, and so she goes to the doctor and
Speaker 2: she's like, I don't know what's happening. And then the
Speaker 2: doctor examines her and the doctor's like, oh, you're becoming invisible.
Speaker 2: That's a condition that happens to lots of midlife women.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, it's so good.
Speaker 2: And there's like a support group for invisible midlife women
Speaker 2: and there's like she said, like who like who and
Speaker 2: the like remember that comedian such and such, And she's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: whatever happened to her, she became invisible.
Speaker 3: It's like that's so creative.
Speaker 2: So clever. It is so funny. And then the book itself,
Speaker 2: it's a novel, but it also kind of goes into
Speaker 2: sort of self helpy world. Jane herself, as she talks
Speaker 2: about on mid went into a very sort of meditation
Speaker 2: almost woo wooy place to get through her midlife crisis
Speaker 2: and so does Tilda, and so then she goes on
Speaker 2: all that and it's just really it's a great book.
Speaker 2: What can I tell you? It's very clever Australian fiction book.
Speaker 2: It's by Jane Tara.
Speaker 3: It's called Tilda Is Visible.
Speaker 1: Can we hear her on Mid this week?
Speaker 2: She is on Mid this week. We'll put the link
Speaker 2: in the show notes. We talk about invisibility.
Speaker 3: My recommendation.
Speaker 4: You know when you are reading a fantastic book and
Speaker 4: you're always half in another world, You're just walking around
Speaker 4: in another world and you're another.
Speaker 1: Character and you just want to get back to it.
Speaker 3: And it's a break from yourself.
Speaker 4: You're not you anymore. You become someone else for a while.
Speaker 4: At the moment, I am a single mother's two children
Speaker 4: because I am Missy Higgins.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, because she's written a book.
Speaker 4: Well this is the thing, and this I don't often
Speaker 4: get this from music, but there is something about Missy
Speaker 4: Higgins's songwriting that feels like I'm reading a book that's
Speaker 4: so narrative and so evocative. I started listening after I
Speaker 4: listened to Claire's but Are You Happy?
Speaker 3: Interview?
Speaker 4: And I went and saw miss Higgins a few months
Speaker 4: ago and she played some new songs from the album,
Speaker 4: and I really like them, and I never like songs
Speaker 4: the first time I hear them.
Speaker 1: It's true.
Speaker 2: At the concert she was like, no, don't yeah, my
Speaker 2: planning one I know, and I just kind of went, oh,
Speaker 2: I actually like that.
Speaker 1: I've been playing this album on repeat as well.
Speaker 3: And then Miss I think she's an out louder.
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm I started listening and I have not been
Speaker 4: able to stop. And I'm now loving my commute to
Speaker 4: and from work because I just I just put this
Speaker 4: album one. I'm just a I feel like I'm fourteen again,
Speaker 4: where you just listen to the same songs over and
Speaker 4: over again. It is about her and you get this
Speaker 4: from but are you Happy? But she and her husband
Speaker 4: split's got two little kids, and it's about explaining that
Speaker 4: and like relationships falling apart and that period of her
Speaker 4: life and it's just brilliant.
Speaker 3: Go and listen. It's yeah so good.
Speaker 2: Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mom
Speaker 2: and Me Are Out Loud just for momm and MIA subscribers.
Speaker 2: Follow the link in the show notes to get your
Speaker 2: daily dose ab out Loud and a big thank you
Speaker 2: to all our current subscribers. It's best and worst. Again.
Speaker 2: I don't think I need to explain this except that
Speaker 2: as always our best and most can be silly, they
Speaker 2: can be serious, they can be a mixture of those things.
Speaker 3: Yep, yeah, why don't you go first.
Speaker 1: My worst is that I'm not sure if I've got
Speaker 1: Rosasha or if I've just fucked my skin barrier.
Speaker 2: You've done.
Speaker 1: I just feel so hot though it feels hot hot,
Speaker 1: but hot is different. It doesn't just feel sore. It
Speaker 1: actually feels hot from the inside. And I feel like
Speaker 1: maybe I've got roseaisiha. Anyway, have you ever had it before? No,
Speaker 1: but it's something that happens at this age. A lot
Speaker 1: of friends who alwayce dated a guy who had it.
Speaker 4: Actually twenty I was saying, I've always quite liked Roseasia
Speaker 4: because I think it looks like a lovely pigle.
Speaker 1: It feels awful, and I just feel like I'm always
Speaker 1: red and hot. Anyway, that's my worst. My best is
Speaker 1: that Luna's been having sleepovers and I've been doing Nana sleepovers,
Speaker 1: and it's such a different experience because she's not sleeping
Speaker 1: through the night properly, and Luca and Jesse have been
Speaker 1: so kind of apologetic and like, oh, you sure, and
Speaker 1: you've had a big week. Last week, I had a
Speaker 1: really big week. We're traveling around for upfronts, and I said, oh,
Speaker 1: why don't I just keep her on Friday night because
Speaker 1: they went out and so jealous and they're like, oh no.
Speaker 1: Jesse was like, oh no, You've had a really big week.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, it's fine. And Luke's like, oh, there,
Speaker 1: she might wake up, and I'm like, oh, well, she
Speaker 1: wakes up, and what was so interesting? I put it
Speaker 1: down and she did wake up. And I've had a
Speaker 1: lot of years of kids waking up in the middle
Speaker 1: of the night, and it's a feeling. I was trying
Speaker 1: to describe the feeling, and I only realized this because
Speaker 1: it was completely absent. When it's your granddaughter. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like an existential dread. I don't know, Jesse, you're
Speaker 1: in the middle of it. How do you feel when
Speaker 1: she wakes up in the middle of the night.
Speaker 4: It's become quite psychologically distressing, because it's like, the worst
Speaker 4: is when it's taken you a long time to fall
Speaker 4: asleep and then you felt yourself just go to it
Speaker 4: and you get woken up. But then you're on the
Speaker 4: clock because you're going I know I have to be
Speaker 4: up at this time. That time is never going to
Speaker 4: change what time I have to be up. And if
Speaker 4: this is the third or the fourth time that she's
Speaker 4: been up overnight, then it's chipping into like my six
Speaker 4: hours I was planning on getting or whatever.
Speaker 1: And underlying that is the absolute panic that this will
Speaker 1: never be fixed. Yeah, like I'm never going to sleep.
Speaker 1: And also I think the randomness of it, like if
Speaker 1: she woke up every night at two and four, then
Speaker 1: you would deal with it. But maybe she'll up four times,
Speaker 1: maybe she'll sleep through the night, which she has done occasionally.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so she woke up, and what did you
Speaker 1: do with her once she wake some care? I just
Speaker 1: did just like I got her up and we went
Speaker 1: and got a bottle, and I came back and I
Speaker 1: cuddled her and she went doggy and it's a doggy.
Speaker 1: And I can't even tell you how neutral I felt
Speaker 1: about it. If anything, I felt happy because it was
Speaker 1: like what time, Yeah, I get to say it's a doggie,
Speaker 1: and then I put her back down. She doesn't need
Speaker 1: a lot of settling. She just wants a bottle and
Speaker 1: then she goes straight back down to bed. I'm easily
Speaker 1: sleepable again. And if I'm tired in the morning, oh well,
Speaker 1: I'm tired in the morning.
Speaker 2: I love that you've got grunny sleepovers'.
Speaker 1: And then then having rep in the morning is just
Speaker 1: so fun. It's just like it's fun.
Speaker 2: What time.
Speaker 4: Oh look, I went and got her. I had a
Speaker 4: morning to myself. Oh hell yeah, yeah, like I went
Speaker 4: and got her Alley.
Speaker 2: It's so cute. I'm just imagining you padding around the
Speaker 2: house with baby Leanna on your head.
Speaker 1: And of course Luca gives me eight million instructions, don't
Speaker 1: sleep in the same room with her, don't put her in,
Speaker 1: don't do this, don't and I'm just like, yep, yep, yep,
Speaker 1: and then I do it.
Speaker 3: I'll do my thing.
Speaker 4: My worst is semi Luna related. She has developed as me. No,
Speaker 4: it's a pathological fear of the bath. In fact, Holly,
Speaker 4: this is I'm asking for parenting advice, and you're you're
Speaker 4: closer to it than me. She will not go in
Speaker 4: the bath, oh no. And she's also smear's yogurt in
Speaker 4: her hair every night.
Speaker 2: Yes, so she needs She made the.
Speaker 1: Screams as if the water is like boiling. The first
Speaker 1: time it happened to me, I'm like, bug at the water.
Speaker 3: Yeah, have you ever had that with kids?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Actually, which one of them? Billy? He did not like
Speaker 2: baths at all, and it was always showers. And the
Speaker 2: annoying thing about showers, as I'm sure you're about to say,
Speaker 2: is that a little child like that cannot shower themselves.
Speaker 2: So then you're in the freaking shower.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you've got this slippery ten kilos on you.
Speaker 1: And what does she do?
Speaker 3: And this is my worst nipple cripple every time. It's
Speaker 3: a new party tree.
Speaker 4: So we get in the shower and she nipple cripples,
Speaker 4: and if I scream, she laughs, and it's.
Speaker 1: A game, like we're doing now, yes.
Speaker 4: So then she starts laughing. So now my life is
Speaker 4: being nipple crippled and going don't react And I'm like, oh,
Speaker 4: oh my god, it's so annoying.
Speaker 3: And then Luca came in the other day and does
Speaker 3: she nipple? This doesn't hurt as much.
Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, exactly, I put my nipool on the
Speaker 4: line for a while for you. And now they're just recovering.
Speaker 4: And now Luca comes into my bathroom and he's like,
Speaker 4: why is your bikini top there? And I'm like, I
Speaker 4: have to wear a bikini in the shower now because
Speaker 4: I'm being crippled.
Speaker 3: Anyway, it'll pass, I'm sure.
Speaker 4: It's holy it's been a month.
Speaker 1: You know that thing with kids where you're like, this
Speaker 1: is my life forever. She's going to be eleven and
Speaker 1: nipple crippling me in the shower and I can't.
Speaker 4: It's just so annoying my best And this actually sort
Speaker 4: of relates to a worst I've had. I think I
Speaker 4: told you two months ago that I tested positive for
Speaker 4: this stomach infection called h pylori. Apparently a few people
Speaker 4: have it, Like it's not not that rare, but test
Speaker 4: a positive and I had to do this horrible course
Speaker 4: of all of these things.
Speaker 1: Did it involve a stuel sample, No, it didn't.
Speaker 2: None of it was stool.
Speaker 4: It's very high stomach ache. But anyway, took all these things,
Speaker 4: really horrible treatment.
Speaker 3: Didn't like it. Anyway.
Speaker 4: I had to do a breath test to see that
Speaker 4: it was negative. Still positive, Oh no, which I was like, well, what.
Speaker 3: Do we do now? Am I resistant to antibiotics?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 4: So I have all of these questions right, and this
Speaker 4: is my best. On Saturday night, I go to hang
Speaker 4: out with Lucas friends. Difference between my friends and Lucas friends.
Speaker 4: So all these friends are doctors and the ones that
Speaker 4: aren't doctors are lawyers handy, and they're really fucking handy.
Speaker 4: And the thing about handy people after they've had a
Speaker 4: few drinks, oh I love it is that it you
Speaker 4: get free medical advice. Yes, and when they stop giving
Speaker 4: you free medical advice, just go the next one.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So I had a few drinks, they had a few drinks.
Speaker 4: I was like, this guy's had six beers, Like he's
Speaker 4: going to be honest with me about how bad this is.
Speaker 4: And I also then started getting.
Speaker 2: Are we going to be irresponsible and share the advice? Well?
Speaker 4: The thing is, you know how in emergency or like,
Speaker 4: you go to a doctor and they've got a really
Speaker 4: good game face and you're like, just pretend having a
Speaker 4: beer at the pub and just be honest with me.
Speaker 3: This is the thing is they I'm like, is it bad?
Speaker 1: Yeah? They haven't learnt to be responsible with their.
Speaker 4: No because they have no inhibitions. And I've also Claire's
Speaker 4: been having with her baby. She had a few health questions.
Speaker 4: So I was like, Claire, I've got this, and I
Speaker 4: was going, would we go to this specialist.
Speaker 1: Or imagining just with a whole lot of like med
Speaker 1: students sitting around you, or maybe are they doctors now?
Speaker 4: Are these doctors now? They're actual doctors and feel so old?
Speaker 4: Lots of different specialties. One was a urologist. I was like,
Speaker 4: I don't really have much use for it, but the
Speaker 4: others I do, like, you can.
Speaker 1: Go together end of the table to get chronic urinary infections.
Speaker 4: I might have cleared up so don't need them. But
Speaker 4: I got such good advice, and then I would go
Speaker 4: the bathroom message Claire and go Okay, this is what
Speaker 4: I'm going to do, and blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: And they've just highly recommend if it all possible, finding
Speaker 1: a friend who's a doctor, especially if you've got health anxiety,
Speaker 1: because yeah helps me.
Speaker 2: My worst of the week is wardrobe related, and I'm
Speaker 2: looking for some advice from my good friend mere Freedman.
Speaker 2: So she will be so horrified when I tell this next.
Speaker 2: But you know how I told you to another hair
Speaker 2: dryer and you were like, oh my god, Well I
Speaker 2: also don't really have a wardrobe.
Speaker 1: Right, So when we moved into our this is what
Speaker 1: goes on in the country. I was going to say
Speaker 1: when we met, you don't at me. I was just
Speaker 1: joking and just trolling Holly. I know that people in
Speaker 1: the country do have wardrobes and hair drives. It's just
Speaker 1: Holly that doesn't.
Speaker 2: When we moved into what I was going to call
Speaker 2: our new house, and then I remember that this month
Speaker 2: we've been there for two years. The bedroom that Brent
Speaker 2: and I have got does not have a wardrobe, and
Speaker 2: the kids got the bedrooms with the really big wardrobes
Speaker 2: in them, like built ins, and I've never worked out
Speaker 2: where we could put a built in an hour and
Speaker 2: I haven't figured it. So I've got a little cupboard
Speaker 2: in our room that has some of my clothes in it,
Speaker 2: and then half my clothes room Billy's room, and half
Speaker 2: my clothes room Matilda's, and then most heart clothes are
Speaker 2: in a pile on the floor. And then you know what,
Speaker 2: I'm so stressed, I know exactly anyway, I'm having a
Speaker 2: style stuck rut. As discussed in the Emmys episode on Tuesday,
Speaker 2: any Body, if you're wondering what we're talking about. Pop
Speaker 2: back there.
Speaker 1: I don't think your outfits have been banging. I don't
Speaker 1: think you're in a rack at all style.
Speaker 2: Of jeans for three years now, but hey, I like them.
Speaker 2: My other wardrobe challenge, of course, is that very often
Speaker 2: I come up to Sydney for a few days in
Speaker 2: a row, so I'm like packing, like these are the
Speaker 2: things I'm writing. Anyway, this weekend, I've got a bit
Speaker 2: of time. Life's busy, and I don't usually but I've
Speaker 2: got a bit of time, and I'm going to do
Speaker 2: a big wardrobe clear out, chuck out, consolidation where you
Speaker 2: can put it. We still haven't solved that problem.
Speaker 1: But the racks I've got, I'm going to sort you out.
Speaker 1: I've got so many things.
Speaker 2: Here's my question though, about what the system I should use,
Speaker 2: because I'm going to go through the wardrobe and bility
Speaker 2: that has like lots of clothes of mine from various eras.
Speaker 2: We need to consolidate so it's easier for me to
Speaker 2: pick what I'm going to wear and stuff. What's my system?
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 2: Chuck, keep, donate?
Speaker 6: What is it?
Speaker 1: Well, that's the first thing.
Speaker 2: How do I decide what to chuck and what not
Speaker 2: to chuck. I'm nostalgic.
Speaker 1: I think I think there are some things that you
Speaker 1: just keep for sentimental reasons. So anything that is like,
Speaker 1: oh that's what I wore when blah blah, wedding dress,
Speaker 1: like her wedding dress, wedding dress, like your christening dress,
Speaker 1: but you wore when you're christened. Your bumm, it's frock.
Speaker 2: We're very godless over here, you really are.
Speaker 1: You're pagan knock down. I don't know what do your
Speaker 1: people do? Want to dance around the fire. So what
Speaker 1: I want you to do is use all those different places,
Speaker 1: and in one of them you're going to put all
Speaker 1: the things that are just not right now. They might
Speaker 1: not fit you. My view is, if something's too small,
Speaker 1: it's got to go. It's got to go. If something's
Speaker 1: too small, you don't need that pressure. You just don't
Speaker 1: need that pressure. Give it another life, up cycle it,
Speaker 1: give it to someone else. But then you will have
Speaker 1: things that are out of season that just aren't right
Speaker 1: right now. So like, for example, leopard print was out
Speaker 1: for years, but you know it's going to come back again.
Speaker 1: Put that away. You know sequence they were out for
Speaker 1: a while. Put those away. Things that you love but
Speaker 1: that just don't feel current. Just put them away as
Speaker 1: long as they fit you. And things that are out
Speaker 1: of season in terms of it's cold, you know, put
Speaker 1: away your warm stuff. Then we're going to get you
Speaker 1: some things. You know that idea of the stuff that
Speaker 1: you wear every day, the rotation, the ten percent of
Speaker 1: your wardrobe that you wear ninety percent of the time.
Speaker 1: We're going to get that in your bedroom, right and
Speaker 1: we're going to get it off the floor. We're going
Speaker 1: to get a hanging. But you've got to be able
Speaker 1: to see it, because my view with clothes is if
Speaker 1: I can't see it, I won't wear it because it
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. And then what I want you to start
Speaker 1: doing is taking a mirror selfie of yourself every day.
Speaker 1: Don't have to post it, although the outladder would quite
Speaker 1: love that. And what that does is that you can
Speaker 1: then look back and see outfits that you felt good in,
Speaker 1: outfits that you did in things that you know, because
Speaker 1: the worst thing with when you don't know what to
Speaker 1: wear is, oh, I just don't know what to wear
Speaker 1: and it just feels like you've got to reinvent it
Speaker 1: because you forget right. But if you've then got a
Speaker 1: record of the outfits and you can also start to
Speaker 1: look at them and see what they have in common
Speaker 1: and on the days that feel right and the days
Speaker 1: that don't feel right, but be ruthless.
Speaker 3: Do you do like a color Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Do color code, but more I do buy pants, skirts, tops,
Speaker 1: jackets like I divide them by king yep.
Speaker 2: Okay, we're going to sort it out this weekend. I'm
Speaker 2: going to big sprinkling the wardrobe. I'm going to also
Speaker 2: sort out the kids clouds. We're going to create space,
Speaker 2: and you're right, everything I don't where all the time
Speaker 2: can stay in there. And then we just have the
Speaker 2: wardrobe issues.
Speaker 1: It's too Yeah, and I'll find you that I've got
Speaker 1: a million things that I do. You know, is great problem.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you later. I'll send you some links.
Speaker 2: Okay. My best of the week was a little parenting
Speaker 2: epiphany that I had on Saturday. So at the weekend
Speaker 2: I took Matilda, my daughter, to Canbra. She plays AFL
Speaker 2: and she the last game of this whole season for
Speaker 2: her was in camera because she's like part of this
Speaker 2: academy team and it was like will she get picked?
Speaker 2: When she get picked? That kind of stuff. It was
Speaker 2: very early on Sunday morning, so we decided to make
Speaker 2: a weekend with it. She and I went down to
Speaker 2: Canberra on Saturday afternoon and we had the most well,
Speaker 2: slightly irritating but also delightful day, like doing a little
Speaker 2: bit of light shopping. I didn't have to stand outside
Speaker 2: Glassons change room for a while, which was quite stressful.
Speaker 2: I am not good their life choices. I am not
Speaker 2: good at being you know, the bloke who waits outside
Speaker 2: the change.
Speaker 3: Room never had anything really bored.
Speaker 2: And then she orders me around. The girl is a
Speaker 2: special type of hair. Oh, She's just like, get me
Speaker 2: this in another size, get me that, not that one.
Speaker 2: And I'm like this pair of Danndom shots and she's
Speaker 2: like no, and I'm like, what's wrong with them? And
Speaker 2: she's like, you know, it's just goes on and on
Speaker 2: and the music's so loud because but anyway, we said
Speaker 2: in the hotel and we went out for dinner that
Speaker 2: evening and we had the nicest dinner together, right like
Speaker 2: she's fourteen fifteen soon And we sat there and we
Speaker 2: ate food that she wouldn't normally eat, and we had
Speaker 2: a conversation like about life and her friends and stuff.
Speaker 2: I sat there because it isn't always like that. Like
Speaker 2: a lot of teenage me and knows very well, a
Speaker 2: lot of teenage time is slam doors, mumm, you're an idiot.
Speaker 2: You don't understand, can I can? I can? I will
Speaker 2: you will you will you. But it was one of
Speaker 2: those little moments that you kind of want to snapshot
Speaker 2: in your head because when I was where you are,
Speaker 2: and I mean, I know you're enjoying lunar enormously, but
Speaker 2: when I was in the trenches of little kiddom, the
Speaker 2: idea that one day I would sit across the table
Speaker 2: with my beautiful daughter, that we would have like an
Speaker 2: almost grown up conversation, and we'd just like it seemed impossible,
Speaker 2: like it was another planet. And it makes me there's
Speaker 2: a lot to get nostalgic and sad about about your
Speaker 2: kids growing up, as we've talked about a lot, but
Speaker 2: there are also some really lovely things about it watching
Speaker 2: them be. You know, we spent this time together and
Speaker 2: it was like mother and daughter because every five minutes
Speaker 2: she was asking me to pay for something, but it
Speaker 2: was also just this lovely appreciation of each other. And
Speaker 2: I loved it, and we had a really great weekend
Speaker 2: and that was my Oh, that's so nice.
Speaker 4: It's been a big week in the US presidential race.
Speaker 4: And if you can't get enough of US politics, then
Speaker 4: we are doing subscriber episodes with Amelia Lester, who is
Speaker 4: a genius expert.
Speaker 1: You got to play with the media this week, got.
Speaker 4: To sit there because you had an appointment, and we
Speaker 4: talked about the debate, the second attempted assassination, and also
Speaker 4: Trump's alleged girlfriend. We're being cheeky when we say that,
Speaker 4: but it's an interesting story. Listen via the link in
Speaker 4: our show notes and make sure you're signed up to
Speaker 4: the Mummeer out Loud newsletter because this week we actually
Speaker 4: have an exclusive bonus chat with Amelia Lester all about
Speaker 4: Taylor Swift's endorsement.
Speaker 1: I wasn't already subscribed to this newsletter for free, I
Speaker 1: would be doing it to just listen to this shows the.
Speaker 4: Really really good question about it trum Taylor. Make sure
Speaker 4: you've signed up. There is a link in our show notes.
Speaker 2: Thank you out louders for being with us all week.
Speaker 2: That is all we have time for this week, of course,
Speaker 2: but we will see you back here on Monday. And
Speaker 2: a massive thank you to our team Executive producer Ruth Devine,
Speaker 2: Senior producer Emiline Gazillis, our audio producers Leah Porges, and
Speaker 2: our social media producer is Isabelle Dolphin. And will see
Speaker 2: you on Monday. Bye bye.
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Mum and Mia subscribers listening. If
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