WEBVTT - Winged Eyeliner & The Age Of Intolerance 0:00:10.287 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:23.607 that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 0:00:23.687 --> 0:00:26.247 Mama Mia out Loud and to our Friday show. Will 0:00:26.287 --> 0:00:27.327 we take a break from the. 0:00:27.287 --> 0:00:29.447 News cycle and breathe out? 0:00:34.087 --> 0:00:35.407 I don't know why that's funny. It was the way 0:00:35.407 --> 0:00:36.127 that Jesse did it. 0:00:36.047 --> 0:00:39.367 It was like an anxious and also just under sufferance 0:00:39.647 --> 0:00:40.447 most because. 0:00:40.247 --> 0:00:44.807 I actually don't do it now, no performativeness. Today it's Friday, 0:00:44.847 --> 0:00:47.967 the twentieth of September, and I am Holly way right. 0:00:48.087 --> 0:00:52.087 Oh, it's the anniversary of the first time I gave birth, 0:00:52.207 --> 0:00:54.567 also known as my eldest son's birthday. 0:00:54.887 --> 0:00:57.447 Ah, happy congratulations. 0:00:57.527 --> 0:00:59.007 Do you know when you've got a few kids and 0:00:59.367 --> 0:01:01.327 I'm not good at numbers, and I just can't remember 0:01:01.367 --> 0:01:03.687 everybody's birthday, But very occasionally there'll be a date and 0:01:03.727 --> 0:01:06.847 I'll just go, I remember that one. Better call them anyway. 0:01:06.927 --> 0:01:09.047 What are you doing tonight with your husband, Jesse? Since 0:01:09.047 --> 0:01:11.567 you're we're going to Where's Sun? While we're going out 0:01:11.607 --> 0:01:12.807 to dinner with may Or aren't. 0:01:12.567 --> 0:01:18.367 We she booked it? Well that's done, yep. I want 0:01:18.367 --> 0:01:21.327 to come, Holly, I'm very busy. 0:01:22.087 --> 0:01:25.767 On the show today, Tim Minchin regrets one of his 0:01:25.927 --> 0:01:28.887 most famous songs, and it tells us a lot about 0:01:28.887 --> 0:01:32.487 where culture has moved to. Also recommendations for the weekend. 0:01:32.487 --> 0:01:35.287 It includes a book, two TV shows and an album, 0:01:35.327 --> 0:01:39.567 So we've got all senses covered and sleepovers, dinner with teens, 0:01:39.687 --> 0:01:43.487 and stomach parasites. Yes, it's best and worst, But first, 0:01:44.007 --> 0:01:45.727 Mia Friedman, in case. 0:01:45.527 --> 0:01:48.407 You missed it, winged eyeliner is the new skinny jean. 0:01:49.127 --> 0:01:54.007 Let's unpack that sentence, shall we. There's another core piece 0:01:54.007 --> 0:01:58.647 of the millennial uniform that is now highly unfashionable according 0:01:58.647 --> 0:02:02.367 to gen Z, who just love trolling their millennial elders. 0:02:02.647 --> 0:02:05.167 And this just makes me laugh a huge amount because 0:02:05.287 --> 0:02:08.647 Jesse's looking already uncomfortable because people have just forgotten about us. 0:02:08.727 --> 0:02:12.687 Gen X's Holly, and there's a war breaking out between 0:02:12.967 --> 0:02:17.527 gen Z, who have first mocked the millennials for their 0:02:17.527 --> 0:02:21.647 skinny jeans, then for their invisible socks, and now it's 0:02:21.647 --> 0:02:25.407 for their winged eyeliner. For about a year, the Internet's 0:02:25.447 --> 0:02:27.687 been debating about whether or not winged eyeliner is out 0:02:27.727 --> 0:02:31.367 of style. Many argued that the makeup trend was timeless, 0:02:31.367 --> 0:02:34.687 but according to gen z z Z it's officially the 0:02:34.727 --> 0:02:38.327 skinny jeans of makeup. And we just wanted to say, Jesse, 0:02:39.007 --> 0:02:39.727 are you okay? 0:02:40.287 --> 0:02:40.567 Okay? 0:02:40.727 --> 0:02:43.367 Firstly, I don't do wing line because it doesn't suit 0:02:43.407 --> 0:02:46.887 me as never suited my eyes. But secondly, twenty year olds, 0:02:46.927 --> 0:02:48.887 I think you do actually need No, I don't. I 0:02:48.887 --> 0:02:50.767 don't do a wing. I do a bit of eyeliner 0:02:50.807 --> 0:02:52.687 on the top. I can't to do a wing No, 0:02:52.767 --> 0:02:54.927 it doesn't work with my eye shape. And this is 0:02:54.927 --> 0:02:59.047 my whole point about makeup and trends. It's bullshit. And 0:02:59.127 --> 0:03:01.887 twenty year old need to stop telling me how to 0:03:01.927 --> 0:03:04.927 do my makeup because your face is different to my face. 0:03:05.167 --> 0:03:08.767 They keep yelling about blush placement. I saw gen Z's 0:03:08.767 --> 0:03:11.807 recently tried to cancel under a concealer. 0:03:12.487 --> 0:03:13.087 And I shadow. 0:03:13.167 --> 0:03:14.487 That's easy when you're twenty. 0:03:14.447 --> 0:03:16.847 That's easy when you have no responsibilities. Try and not 0:03:17.007 --> 0:03:19.767 sleeping and then not doing under. I can seel like 0:03:19.807 --> 0:03:21.527 you don't know what my under eyes look like. 0:03:21.567 --> 0:03:23.727 I cancel what I shadow a long time ago because 0:03:23.767 --> 0:03:27.087 it's actually really hard to apply properly. That's why cream 0:03:27.127 --> 0:03:28.287 I shadow is much better. 0:03:28.407 --> 0:03:29.967 I just don't think that was just. 0:03:29.967 --> 0:03:31.927 A personal cancelation. Put on whatever you want to. 0:03:32.487 --> 0:03:34.807 I don't care where the youth have a hold on 0:03:34.887 --> 0:03:38.327 what we can and cannot wear. I'm going on strike. No, 0:03:38.567 --> 0:03:41.487 I will do what needs to be done, because I 0:03:41.487 --> 0:03:43.727 don't think that if you are not twenty, then you 0:03:43.767 --> 0:03:47.607 should be taking advice. Like even they're like their blush, 0:03:47.647 --> 0:03:49.367 you should always put it on your nose, and you 0:03:49.367 --> 0:03:50.567 should be putting it on your I. 0:03:50.527 --> 0:03:51.807 See them put blush on their forehead. 0:03:51.847 --> 0:03:53.447 I know there's a lot of blush on the forehead 0:03:53.447 --> 0:03:55.327 going on. I just want to pull one out for 0:03:55.367 --> 0:03:58.847 our producer M because our producer and wears wing eye 0:03:58.887 --> 0:04:01.047 Lina every day and I don't think i've ever seen 0:04:01.087 --> 0:04:03.527 you without it, M, and you look great with it. 0:04:03.527 --> 0:04:06.247 It's very much part of your vibe. Are you going 0:04:06.287 --> 0:04:07.287 to stop wearing. 0:04:07.007 --> 0:04:08.927 You wear skinny jeans, so she's feeling. 0:04:08.647 --> 0:04:12.487 Particularly stop wearing it because people are pointing and laughing 0:04:12.487 --> 0:04:13.287 at you in the street. 0:04:13.727 --> 0:04:16.127 No, I'm going to keep wearing it because I feel 0:04:16.127 --> 0:04:18.287 like it's a part of my identity. I just don't 0:04:18.287 --> 0:04:20.407 know how you can do it, Like I'm in awe 0:04:20.447 --> 0:04:23.247 of anyone you can skill yeah, if the skill involved, 0:04:23.287 --> 0:04:25.847 and if I could do it, I would be doing 0:04:25.847 --> 0:04:27.007 it as a flex every day. 0:04:27.127 --> 0:04:29.167 I've been doing it for many years, so I think 0:04:29.167 --> 0:04:29.487 it just. 0:04:29.447 --> 0:04:32.247 Comes with practice. What's the trick. It's a product that 0:04:32.327 --> 0:04:34.967 I started using. It's just the Mabelene liquid eyeliner. It's 0:04:35.007 --> 0:04:36.927 really easy to do, but no point recommending that now 0:04:36.967 --> 0:04:40.407 because it's not call anything. It'll be on sale soon probably. 0:04:40.527 --> 0:04:42.607 Taylor Swift is very fond of the wing eyeline looks, 0:04:42.607 --> 0:04:44.127 so you're in good company. 0:04:44.367 --> 0:04:48.327 Tim Minchin has some feedback for Tim Minchin. Eight years ago, 0:04:48.447 --> 0:04:52.767 the writer, comedian, singer, songwriter, satirist wrote a song about 0:04:52.807 --> 0:04:53.487 George Pelp. 0:04:53.887 --> 0:04:54.447 A lot of. 0:04:54.367 --> 0:04:59.087 People here, George, I really think your does get on up. 0:05:02.407 --> 0:05:07.327 We are just want you to come home. Card Pell, 0:05:07.767 --> 0:05:13.807 I know you're nothing and much fun even so we 0:05:14.047 --> 0:05:16.087 think you should come Hell. 0:05:16.167 --> 0:05:18.407 At the time was accused of child's ex abuse, and 0:05:18.447 --> 0:05:22.167 he's since been acquitted. But Minchin, known for his satire, 0:05:22.327 --> 0:05:24.767 wrote the song and it was about inviting Pell to 0:05:24.807 --> 0:05:28.167 come home and face his accusers, and he raised money. 0:05:28.207 --> 0:05:30.807 The song was raising money as well to send the 0:05:31.047 --> 0:05:35.047 alleged victims over to see Pell in Rome. You know 0:05:35.287 --> 0:05:36.607 co yeah, it was great song. 0:05:36.767 --> 0:05:40.967 And also just to clarify, it was the victims of 0:05:41.167 --> 0:05:44.247 a priest that Hell was supposed to have protected. 0:05:44.607 --> 0:05:45.647 Got it, yes, right. 0:05:46.247 --> 0:05:49.447 The song was viewed millions of times, and speaking to 0:05:49.487 --> 0:05:52.087 Good Weekend Talks, Mintionin said. 0:05:51.927 --> 0:05:54.927 I've been part of massive public shaming with pell and 0:05:54.927 --> 0:05:57.367 stuff and stuff. I reflect on now and what are 0:05:57.407 --> 0:06:00.807 the possible unintended consequences? And now we have ten years 0:06:00.807 --> 0:06:04.367 of data, twelve years of data, and the unintended consequence 0:06:04.527 --> 0:06:08.287 is a divided nation. Probably we should be very very 0:06:08.327 --> 0:06:11.647 careful with public shah as a rule, because how why 0:06:11.687 --> 0:06:15.007 are you the moral arbiter? Public shaming cannot be the 0:06:15.047 --> 0:06:18.807 primary mechanism because it will just it'll come for you. 0:06:18.927 --> 0:06:21.047 Mention has a new book out, and he has spoken 0:06:21.127 --> 0:06:24.807 on this interview and across other media about his issues 0:06:24.847 --> 0:06:27.967 with wokeness, and he has been self critical of his 0:06:28.047 --> 0:06:31.167 own and this is his words, performative righteousness. 0:06:31.207 --> 0:06:32.007 What's his book about? 0:06:32.047 --> 0:06:32.207 Is this? 0:06:32.247 --> 0:06:33.127 What his book's about? 0:06:33.167 --> 0:06:36.687 His book is actually three different addresses he has given 0:06:36.727 --> 0:06:39.047 to universities and stuff when he's like spoken, so they're 0:06:39.047 --> 0:06:40.927 like speeches, and I think one of them is about 0:06:40.967 --> 0:06:44.407 like nine lessons for life, and he's compiled them into 0:06:44.487 --> 0:06:44.967 this book. 0:06:45.087 --> 0:06:48.727 Actually, funnily enough, I watched that on YouTube just the 0:06:48.807 --> 0:06:51.287 other day. He gave it about ten years ago, and 0:06:51.367 --> 0:06:53.247 it was really interesting because I've got to give a 0:06:53.727 --> 0:06:56.407 speech night speech, and I was looking for ideas and 0:06:56.567 --> 0:06:59.447 it's actually fantastic. Oh, it's still the test of time. 0:06:59.887 --> 0:07:01.927 We'll pop it in the newsletter this week. 0:07:02.087 --> 0:07:04.967 Well, this echoes a conversation I heard recently on No Filter, 0:07:05.287 --> 0:07:08.767 where you maya interviewed Africa Brook, who wrote a viral 0:07:08.807 --> 0:07:12.127 open Legs in twenty twenty one titled why I'm leaving 0:07:12.127 --> 0:07:17.127 the Cult of Wokeness, And while criticizing wokeness isn't necessarily new, 0:07:17.487 --> 0:07:20.967 what we are seeing more of is self proclaimed lefties 0:07:21.087 --> 0:07:25.487 or progressives announced that they are leaving the party. Mia, 0:07:25.527 --> 0:07:26.687 Why do you think that is? 0:07:27.087 --> 0:07:32.767 I've left the party because I think that in many 0:07:32.807 --> 0:07:35.887 ways the left has become. It used to be the 0:07:35.967 --> 0:07:39.167 right that was very in favor of censorship and silencing 0:07:39.207 --> 0:07:43.167 people and shutting people down, and they still are, I 0:07:43.167 --> 0:07:43.927 guess in a way. 0:07:44.047 --> 0:07:46.887 They like to burn books and ban them from libraries 0:07:46.927 --> 0:07:49.327 and take away women's rights, so they do still quite 0:07:49.367 --> 0:07:50.167 like to cancel things. 0:07:50.207 --> 0:07:57.687 Actually, that's true. But what the left does is, to me, 0:07:58.007 --> 0:08:02.447 cancelation is different to like book banning or anything, because 0:08:02.487 --> 0:08:07.807 it's cloaked in this fake virtue. Maybe it's real virtue. 0:08:08.167 --> 0:08:12.087 To me, there's a lot of of tribal virtue signaling 0:08:12.287 --> 0:08:16.367 and moral purity and saying you're not pure enough, you're 0:08:16.367 --> 0:08:19.567 not pure enough. And then eventually, then, as Tim Minchin 0:08:19.647 --> 0:08:23.247 pointed out, eventually everybody will get canceled because no one 0:08:23.327 --> 0:08:25.647 is pure enough, right, so there will always be someone 0:08:26.007 --> 0:08:27.407 that is less privileged than news. 0:08:27.567 --> 0:08:30.207 So do you think that that is part of why 0:08:30.327 --> 0:08:34.007 we're seeing progressives put the hand up and go I'm 0:08:34.007 --> 0:08:38.087 done with wokeness because it came for everyone eventually. Like 0:08:38.127 --> 0:08:40.487 because if you see Minchin and he's sort of had 0:08:40.527 --> 0:08:42.487 that pel moment, and I'm sure he stands by the 0:08:42.527 --> 0:08:45.687 politics of what he said. It sounds like the platform 0:08:45.767 --> 0:08:47.647 by which he did it, he's kind of going, oh, 0:08:47.647 --> 0:08:48.287 I don't know if that was. 0:08:49.127 --> 0:08:50.967 He does stand by it, and he said, I wrote 0:08:51.007 --> 0:08:54.687 that song after making sure I researched the fact that 0:08:54.767 --> 0:08:56.887 he'd caught all these flights and that he would only 0:08:56.967 --> 0:09:00.087 been examined by a doctor in the Vatican, so I 0:09:00.127 --> 0:09:03.527 guess you could say he gave George Pell the benefit 0:09:03.527 --> 0:09:05.567 of the doubt in some ways, but then it was 0:09:05.767 --> 0:09:09.647 very much about mocking and ridicule and shaming him. People 0:09:09.647 --> 0:09:13.087 would say that perhaps he deserved that, and it's certainly 0:09:13.127 --> 0:09:17.607 how we all felt then and even perhaps now. But 0:09:18.087 --> 0:09:21.967 tim Mentioned's point is that by everybody dog piling onto 0:09:22.007 --> 0:09:24.927 someone who's maybe And again, it's really hard to talk 0:09:24.967 --> 0:09:27.847 about this without because relating a whole lot of different things, right, 0:09:27.847 --> 0:09:31.287 because George Pell and all of that, and Harvey Weinstein 0:09:31.327 --> 0:09:33.047 and all of that, and Luis c. K and all 0:09:33.087 --> 0:09:36.047 of that. You know, there are allegations and sometimes convictions 0:09:36.047 --> 0:09:39.767 of actual crimes. When someone tells a joke that doesn't land, 0:09:39.967 --> 0:09:43.207 or uses a word that perhaps isn't used anymore because 0:09:43.207 --> 0:09:45.247 we now understand it to be offensive to a particular 0:09:45.287 --> 0:09:48.527 group of people. To me, that's very different. That's not 0:09:48.567 --> 0:09:51.167 actually a crime. That might be a mistake, that might 0:09:51.207 --> 0:09:53.887 be reckless, that might be careless, that might be insensitive, 0:09:54.407 --> 0:09:58.367 But often the treatment is flattened and the intention is 0:09:58.487 --> 0:09:59.487 just completely lost. 0:09:59.927 --> 0:10:02.687 Holly, do you think that this is a broader trend? 0:10:02.687 --> 0:10:05.487 Am I imagining it? Or am I seeing more people 0:10:05.527 --> 0:10:08.087 who I would think. I mean, I'm a leftier, just 0:10:08.167 --> 0:10:10.687 am people who are I think I would politically align 0:10:10.767 --> 0:10:14.087 with being more critical of the left. 0:10:14.087 --> 0:10:14.727 Are you saying that? 0:10:14.767 --> 0:10:18.047 I think I don't really understand what leaving the Party 0:10:18.087 --> 0:10:20.887 of Wokeness means. And I understand it in Africa Brooks case. 0:10:21.047 --> 0:10:23.127 I mean, I love that interview, and I've read a 0:10:23.167 --> 0:10:25.207 lot a lot that she has written and listened to 0:10:25.247 --> 0:10:28.447 her a lot. I think she's really interesting. But I 0:10:28.487 --> 0:10:31.767 think that Wokeness has been built up into a boogeyman 0:10:32.567 --> 0:10:35.887 that actually it's fake. I don't think it exists. I 0:10:35.927 --> 0:10:37.567 don't know when you say I've left that party, I 0:10:37.567 --> 0:10:40.487 don't know what it means. What do you mean I've. 0:10:40.327 --> 0:10:45.287 Become increasingly disillusioned? And only because it's become And again 0:10:45.287 --> 0:10:47.247 it's not everybody who is left leaning. I mean they're 0:10:47.247 --> 0:10:52.647 talking big generalizations. There's a mean spirited nastiness and a 0:10:53.287 --> 0:10:56.607 desire to shut people down, even the word cancelation, and 0:10:56.727 --> 0:11:01.527 silence them and deplatform them if you disagree with them. 0:11:01.567 --> 0:11:04.207 And Tim Mention's point is that he says it's not 0:11:04.207 --> 0:11:08.767 particularly constructive when the left calls anyone they disagree with 0:11:08.807 --> 0:11:11.287 a fashion yeah or a racist or a homophom or 0:11:11.327 --> 0:11:13.367 a transpher you can't and some of those people might be. 0:11:13.447 --> 0:11:15.007 But it's become such a. 0:11:15.167 --> 0:11:22.607 Like about leaving behind public shaming, leaving behind sort of flattening, 0:11:22.687 --> 0:11:27.687 of making every issue entirely binary. It's leaving behind shouting 0:11:27.727 --> 0:11:30.967 about causes that you don't know enough about on social. 0:11:30.767 --> 0:11:31.767 Media, moral police. 0:11:32.047 --> 0:11:33.967 Because I think I'd be very happy to leave all 0:11:33.967 --> 0:11:36.647 that behind, and broadly I have. But I think that 0:11:36.687 --> 0:11:39.807 the obsession with wokeness comes from the right, particularly in Australia. 0:11:39.847 --> 0:11:41.847 It's something that the Liberal Party and they love to 0:11:41.847 --> 0:11:44.047 bang on about because it sounds like big and scary 0:11:44.087 --> 0:11:45.887 and it's policing and it's stopping us from saying what 0:11:45.967 --> 0:11:48.607 we want to say. You'll actually see that in America, 0:11:48.927 --> 0:11:52.087 it's become very clear that wokeness has been left out 0:11:52.127 --> 0:11:54.727 of democratic politics in this election that we're looking at. 0:11:54.967 --> 0:11:57.927 You know that from a lot of progressives in Democrats, 0:11:57.927 --> 0:12:00.167 they're like, common has left us behind, and we're not 0:12:00.207 --> 0:12:02.607 talking about identity politics the way that we were four 0:12:02.647 --> 0:12:04.647 years ago or eight years ago. And I think that's true. 0:12:04.967 --> 0:12:08.527 I think one of the problems with the round bashing 0:12:08.567 --> 0:12:10.927 of it as an eye idea is it looks away 0:12:10.927 --> 0:12:13.487 from the moment in time from where it came, right 0:12:13.607 --> 0:12:16.407 like Donald Trump getting elected. And I know we talk 0:12:16.527 --> 0:12:20.007 way too much about America, but it's a cultural atmosphere 0:12:20.047 --> 0:12:23.287 that trickled through everywhere. Right Donald Trump getting elected in 0:12:23.447 --> 0:12:27.847 twenty sixteen really put a lot of people in were terrified. 0:12:27.927 --> 0:12:30.487 Remember the pussy hats and the resistance and that all 0:12:30.527 --> 0:12:33.207 that kind of stuff is it felt like a fight 0:12:33.487 --> 0:12:35.807 or flight moment and whose side are you on? And 0:12:35.847 --> 0:12:38.607 are you on the side of rightness or wrongness? And 0:12:39.127 --> 0:12:41.727 that is always way too simplistic a way to look 0:12:41.727 --> 0:12:44.047 at politics. But on the other hand, it felt like that. 0:12:44.247 --> 0:12:47.727 And if you're a woman who lives in a conservative 0:12:47.767 --> 0:12:50.247 state in the US, it would absolutely still feel like 0:12:50.287 --> 0:12:52.407 that the whole What I completely agree with you, so, 0:12:52.447 --> 0:12:54.127 I mean, so, what I'm trying to get to is 0:12:54.167 --> 0:12:57.007 the point that when we just broadly criticize wokeness, I 0:12:57.047 --> 0:13:00.567 think we kind of ignore that it was an extreme 0:13:00.727 --> 0:13:03.487 reaction to something extreme, do you know what I mean? 0:13:03.647 --> 0:13:06.767 I agree, And I think what is unfortunate is that 0:13:06.807 --> 0:13:09.887 it's ended up eating itself in that there was a 0:13:09.927 --> 0:13:12.247 situation where there was a man who was elected president 0:13:12.247 --> 0:13:15.967 who talked about grabbing a woman by the pussy and 0:13:16.087 --> 0:13:18.447 all the other awful things that he said. And because 0:13:18.647 --> 0:13:20.767 the world felt so out of control and we were 0:13:20.847 --> 0:13:25.927 so viscerally shocked that someone who could say this in 0:13:26.087 --> 0:13:30.087 twenty sixteen could become president of what purports to be 0:13:30.127 --> 0:13:33.007 the greatest democracy in the world, that the left was 0:13:33.127 --> 0:13:35.927 so shocked by that they couldn't do anything about it. 0:13:35.967 --> 0:13:39.407 So they started trying to control their own tribe, within 0:13:39.487 --> 0:13:42.327 their own tribe. And that's where this idea of censorship 0:13:42.767 --> 0:13:46.567 and moral purity meant. That things got smaller and smaller 0:13:46.567 --> 0:13:49.447 and smaller. So instead of fighting the big fight, and 0:13:49.967 --> 0:13:54.687 you know, while everybody was busy canceling someone who they shared, 0:13:54.887 --> 0:13:57.087 you know, ninety nine percent of the ideology with because 0:13:57.087 --> 0:13:59.647 they used a word or told about joke or whatever, 0:14:00.447 --> 0:14:03.367 Meanwhile Roe versus Wade was taken away and the women's 0:14:03.447 --> 0:14:06.447 right to reproductive choice was taken away. And I understand 0:14:06.447 --> 0:14:08.207 again where it came from, because it came from feeling 0:14:08.287 --> 0:14:11.487 so powerless. I can't control anything in the world, but 0:14:11.567 --> 0:14:14.287 I can cancel this person who said this bad one. 0:14:14.607 --> 0:14:17.607 You've also got to remember that it also coincided with 0:14:18.047 --> 0:14:22.567 obviously broadly with mass social media. And although we can 0:14:22.607 --> 0:14:25.287 be very cynical about social media now, for very good reason, 0:14:25.607 --> 0:14:27.087 it also gave a voice to a whole lot of 0:14:27.087 --> 0:14:29.327 people who we never had to listen to before. Right, 0:14:29.687 --> 0:14:31.807 if you put your mind back to a time when 0:14:31.847 --> 0:14:36.127 the only media was controlled by big organizations and the 0:14:36.167 --> 0:14:38.887 gatekeepers of those things were very from a very specific 0:14:38.887 --> 0:14:41.447 group of people, You've also got to remember that social 0:14:41.487 --> 0:14:45.847 media is a platform for social activism and cause advancement 0:14:45.927 --> 0:14:47.847 in lots of ways has been great. Me too would 0:14:47.887 --> 0:14:50.527 never have happened without it, nor would lots of other 0:14:50.727 --> 0:14:53.207 really positive things. So you give a mic to a 0:14:53.247 --> 0:14:55.807 lot of people who didn't have mics before, and they're 0:14:55.807 --> 0:14:57.487 going to talk about the things that are important to them. 0:14:57.727 --> 0:14:59.367 I think we kind of flatten it when we just 0:14:59.407 --> 0:15:02.807 say it's terrible, don't use social media to express an opinion. 0:15:02.527 --> 0:15:04.527 Now, hang on, hang on. But that's not what waitness is. 0:15:04.527 --> 0:15:07.287 Because everyone's got the right to an opinion, But it's 0:15:07.327 --> 0:15:12.567 the idea of your opinion shouldn't exist if it's different 0:15:12.727 --> 0:15:15.927 to mine, and you're a fascist if it's black. 0:15:15.767 --> 0:15:16.447 And white thinking. 0:15:16.487 --> 0:15:19.607 And I think that it's a definitional issue sometimes because 0:15:19.607 --> 0:15:23.847 it started off. It was derived from African American vernacular English. 0:15:24.127 --> 0:15:27.647 It originally meant alertness to racial prejudice and discrimination. 0:15:27.767 --> 0:15:30.127 It was a compliment, and it was also is literal. 0:15:30.207 --> 0:15:32.927 It's like, yeah, sometimes you need your eyes opened. You 0:15:33.007 --> 0:15:34.127 can't see what you can't see. 0:15:34.367 --> 0:15:36.807 But in terms of what it evolved into, and I 0:15:36.847 --> 0:15:40.447 do think it evolved, is that it's now considered sort 0:15:40.487 --> 0:15:44.447 of left wing attitudes or practices that are about opposing 0:15:44.447 --> 0:15:48.567 social injustice or discrimination, but they're viewed as self righteous 0:15:48.807 --> 0:15:50.767 or manitious or insincere. 0:15:51.127 --> 0:15:53.327 And I actually think it has. 0:15:53.247 --> 0:15:54.567 Less to do with Trump and more to do with 0:15:54.607 --> 0:15:57.247 the Internet, like woke, isn't it Generally it's to do 0:15:57.367 --> 0:16:02.847 with the two dimensional black and white view of the 0:16:02.847 --> 0:16:05.687 internet and how most of our sometimes all of our 0:16:05.967 --> 0:16:11.367 discussions are occurring online. And what I think has happened 0:16:11.807 --> 0:16:14.647 is that when you're in it, or maybe it's taking 0:16:14.887 --> 0:16:17.567 a step back, you see that there are a lot 0:16:17.567 --> 0:16:21.927 of logical fallacies or contradictions, or a lot of hypocrisy 0:16:21.967 --> 0:16:25.047 within this ideology that you start going this doesn't make sense. 0:16:25.287 --> 0:16:29.527 If you're about diversity, yet there isn't allowed to be 0:16:29.767 --> 0:16:33.447 any diversity of opinion, Then there's hypocrisy there that frustrates people. 0:16:33.527 --> 0:16:35.967 But there's no diversity of opinion on the other side either. 0:16:36.047 --> 0:16:37.367 Have you been on Twitter lately? Oh? 0:16:37.447 --> 0:16:38.047 Absolutely. 0:16:38.047 --> 0:16:40.287 But the thing is, with all the and Tim Minchin 0:16:40.327 --> 0:16:43.247 has actually said this, with all the yelling at the right, 0:16:43.287 --> 0:16:46.727 which I am there, like Trump deserves all the criticism 0:16:46.727 --> 0:16:48.607 in the world, it doesn't mean that we don't have 0:16:48.687 --> 0:16:49.327 notes to take. 0:16:49.487 --> 0:16:50.407 Is how he's put it. 0:16:50.487 --> 0:16:53.487 And I think that progressives are also doing a bit 0:16:53.527 --> 0:16:56.447 of soul searching because whatever we've been doing for the 0:16:56.487 --> 0:16:59.647 last decade isn't working. And if you think it is, 0:16:59.687 --> 0:17:01.807 it's like, just look at the state of things. And 0:17:02.367 --> 0:17:05.367 we talked yesterday in the subscriber episode about Trump. It 0:17:05.407 --> 0:17:09.167 briefly came up the Brittany Mahomes and Taylor Swift incident. 0:17:09.967 --> 0:17:13.167 I would think that kind of a wo kism mightyology 0:17:13.207 --> 0:17:16.047 has led us to think that sitting beside someone who 0:17:16.247 --> 0:17:21.127 likes a social media post by a different presidential candidate is. 0:17:21.087 --> 0:17:24.287 Akin to literal evil like and. 0:17:24.207 --> 0:17:28.327 That is just that's not exclusive to the left. Plenty 0:17:28.367 --> 0:17:30.247 of people on the right who think exactly that. Have 0:17:30.327 --> 0:17:32.527 you seen what Donald Trum's been tweeting about Taylor. 0:17:32.287 --> 0:17:34.567 Lot I'm with you, but isn't that just going But 0:17:34.607 --> 0:17:36.967 they do it too, But they do it mean. But 0:17:37.047 --> 0:17:39.287 this is my point, right is I agree with both 0:17:39.327 --> 0:17:45.447 of you entirely about shamy, judgy, pointlessness of infighting and everything. 0:17:45.807 --> 0:17:48.567 But I think that building wokeness up as the enemy, 0:17:48.687 --> 0:17:51.607 to me, is a gift to the real enemy. Who 0:17:51.607 --> 0:17:54.207 are the people want to take us back and take 0:17:54.247 --> 0:17:56.847 back the progress that women and minority groups have made. 0:17:57.287 --> 0:18:01.887 It's a nice easy straw man, in my opinion, to go. Well, 0:18:01.887 --> 0:18:04.207 there's a lot of young, idealistic people shouting on the 0:18:04.247 --> 0:18:10.087 internet who have extreme opinions and they are telling other 0:18:10.087 --> 0:18:11.447 people what to do and calling them out and all 0:18:11.447 --> 0:18:13.407 the things, and that's the enemy, And in my mind, 0:18:13.807 --> 0:18:15.807 they're not actually the people we need to have our 0:18:15.847 --> 0:18:16.207 eyes on. 0:18:16.647 --> 0:18:20.167 Yeah, I don't know, because I know what has been 0:18:20.287 --> 0:18:23.447 most scarring for me is not being called names by 0:18:23.447 --> 0:18:27.167 people on the right. It's being called names by people 0:18:27.247 --> 0:18:29.087 on the left. And it's not the actual well, it 0:18:29.167 --> 0:18:32.927 is the actual names. It goes to character like it 0:18:33.007 --> 0:18:35.047 goes to your I mean, it's easy to dismiss if 0:18:35.047 --> 0:18:39.167 someone says you're a fat, dumb blah blah whatever. But 0:18:39.287 --> 0:18:43.647 when the left says words like racist, homophobe. I'm not 0:18:43.767 --> 0:18:47.967 talking particularly about me, but about someone fascist. That's very 0:18:48.007 --> 0:18:51.407 different to someone just slagging me off, you know what 0:18:51.407 --> 0:18:53.887 I mean. And that's very different too. If someone says, oh, 0:18:53.927 --> 0:18:57.447 you're so woke, it can be dismissive, I agree, and 0:18:57.487 --> 0:18:58.407 it can be weaponary. 0:18:58.567 --> 0:19:01.327 They say groomer, you know, to gay people, they say 0:19:01.327 --> 0:19:03.567 you're a groomer. They is just as divisive. 0:19:05.007 --> 0:19:06.847 You do, think you're right? 0:19:07.207 --> 0:19:10.247 I think that to unpick wocism and put that to 0:19:10.287 --> 0:19:12.847 the side, I actually think Africa Brooks said it perfectly 0:19:12.887 --> 0:19:14.527 on the front cover of her book. She calls it 0:19:14.567 --> 0:19:16.167 the age of intolerance. And that's both. 0:19:16.247 --> 0:19:17.007 That's the issue. 0:19:17.087 --> 0:19:19.287 That's the issue, right, it's in my mind that's there 0:19:19.327 --> 0:19:19.887 because there's. 0:19:19.767 --> 0:19:23.087 Not enough diversity of opinion in any political party and 0:19:23.127 --> 0:19:26.807 any ideology. All of these logical fallacies that we see 0:19:26.847 --> 0:19:30.447 from like slippery slope stuff to the language that we use. 0:19:30.487 --> 0:19:32.127 You know, when you see something on social media or 0:19:32.207 --> 0:19:33.847 you see a trend and you go, this just doesn't 0:19:33.887 --> 0:19:35.927 feel right, like it just doesn't feel true or whatever, 0:19:35.967 --> 0:19:39.567 like you're probably right. So we hear things like silence 0:19:39.607 --> 0:19:43.727 is violence or believe women, which might actually in some 0:19:43.767 --> 0:19:47.167 cases be true and in the correct context work, but 0:19:47.207 --> 0:19:49.647 they don't work in every context, and so there are 0:19:49.647 --> 0:19:52.807