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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mama Mia out Loud and to our Friday show. Will

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Speaker 2: we take a break from the.

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Speaker 1: News cycle and breathe out?

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Speaker 2: I don't know why that's funny. It was the way

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Speaker 2: that Jesse did it.

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Speaker 1: It was like an anxious and also just under sufferance

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Speaker 1: most because.

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Speaker 2: I actually don't do it now, no performativeness. Today it's Friday,

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Speaker 2: the twentieth of September, and I am Holly way right.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's the anniversary of the first time I gave birth,

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Speaker 1: also known as my eldest son's birthday.

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Speaker 3: Ah, happy congratulations.

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Speaker 1: Do you know when you've got a few kids and

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Speaker 1: I'm not good at numbers, and I just can't remember

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Speaker 1: everybody's birthday, But very occasionally there'll be a date and

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Speaker 1: I'll just go, I remember that one. Better call them anyway.

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Speaker 4: What are you doing tonight with your husband, Jesse? Since

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Speaker 4: you're we're going to Where's Sun? While we're going out

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Speaker 4: to dinner with may Or aren't.

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Speaker 3: We she booked it? Well that's done, yep. I want

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Speaker 3: to come, Holly, I'm very busy.

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Speaker 2: On the show today, Tim Minchin regrets one of his

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Speaker 2: most famous songs, and it tells us a lot about

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Speaker 2: where culture has moved to. Also recommendations for the weekend.

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Speaker 2: It includes a book, two TV shows and an album,

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Speaker 2: So we've got all senses covered and sleepovers, dinner with teens,

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Speaker 2: and stomach parasites. Yes, it's best and worst, But first,

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Speaker 2: Mia Friedman, in case.

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Speaker 1: You missed it, winged eyeliner is the new skinny jean.

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Speaker 1: Let's unpack that sentence, shall we. There's another core piece

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Speaker 1: of the millennial uniform that is now highly unfashionable according

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Speaker 1: to gen Z, who just love trolling their millennial elders.

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Speaker 1: And this just makes me laugh a huge amount because

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Speaker 1: Jesse's looking already uncomfortable because people have just forgotten about us.

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Speaker 1: Gen X's Holly, and there's a war breaking out between

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Speaker 1: gen Z, who have first mocked the millennials for their

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Speaker 1: skinny jeans, then for their invisible socks, and now it's

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Speaker 1: for their winged eyeliner. For about a year, the Internet's

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Speaker 1: been debating about whether or not winged eyeliner is out

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Speaker 1: of style. Many argued that the makeup trend was timeless,

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Speaker 1: but according to gen z z Z it's officially the

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Speaker 1: skinny jeans of makeup. And we just wanted to say, Jesse,

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Speaker 1: are you okay?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 4: Firstly, I don't do wing line because it doesn't suit

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Speaker 4: me as never suited my eyes. But secondly, twenty year olds,

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Speaker 4: I think you do actually need No, I don't. I

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Speaker 4: don't do a wing. I do a bit of eyeliner

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Speaker 4: on the top. I can't to do a wing No,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't work with my eye shape. And this is

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Speaker 4: my whole point about makeup and trends. It's bullshit. And

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Speaker 4: twenty year old need to stop telling me how to

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Speaker 4: do my makeup because your face is different to my face.

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Speaker 4: They keep yelling about blush placement. I saw gen Z's

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Speaker 4: recently tried to cancel under a concealer.

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Speaker 3: And I shadow.

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Speaker 1: That's easy when you're twenty.

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Speaker 4: That's easy when you have no responsibilities. Try and not

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Speaker 4: sleeping and then not doing under. I can seel like

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Speaker 4: you don't know what my under eyes look like.

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Speaker 1: I cancel what I shadow a long time ago because

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Speaker 1: it's actually really hard to apply properly. That's why cream

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Speaker 1: I shadow is much better.

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Speaker 2: I just don't think that was just.

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Speaker 1: A personal cancelation. Put on whatever you want to.

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Speaker 4: I don't care where the youth have a hold on

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Speaker 4: what we can and cannot wear. I'm going on strike. No,

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Speaker 4: I will do what needs to be done, because I

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Speaker 4: don't think that if you are not twenty, then you

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Speaker 4: should be taking advice. Like even they're like their blush,

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Speaker 4: you should always put it on your nose, and you

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Speaker 4: should be putting it on your I.

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Speaker 3: See them put blush on their forehead.

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Speaker 2: I know there's a lot of blush on the forehead

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Speaker 2: going on. I just want to pull one out for

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Speaker 2: our producer M because our producer and wears wing eye

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Speaker 2: Lina every day and I don't think i've ever seen

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Speaker 2: you without it, M, and you look great with it.

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Speaker 2: It's very much part of your vibe. Are you going

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Speaker 2: to stop wearing.

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Speaker 1: You wear skinny jeans, so she's feeling.

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Speaker 2: Particularly stop wearing it because people are pointing and laughing

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Speaker 2: at you in the street.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm going to keep wearing it because I feel

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Speaker 1: like it's a part of my identity. I just don't

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Speaker 1: know how you can do it, Like I'm in awe

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Speaker 1: of anyone you can skill yeah, if the skill involved,

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Speaker 1: and if I could do it, I would be doing

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Speaker 1: it as a flex every day.

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Speaker 2: I've been doing it for many years, so I think

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Speaker 2: it just.

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Speaker 1: Comes with practice. What's the trick. It's a product that

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Speaker 1: I started using. It's just the Mabelene liquid eyeliner. It's

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Speaker 1: really easy to do, but no point recommending that now

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Speaker 1: because it's not call anything. It'll be on sale soon probably.

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift is very fond of the wing eyeline looks,

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Speaker 1: so you're in good company.

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Speaker 4: Tim Minchin has some feedback for Tim Minchin. Eight years ago,

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Speaker 4: the writer, comedian, singer, songwriter, satirist wrote a song about

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Speaker 4: George Pelp.

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Speaker 1: A lot of.

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Speaker 5: People here, George, I really think your does get on up.

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Speaker 5: We are just want you to come home. Card Pell,

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Speaker 5: I know you're nothing and much fun even so we

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Speaker 5: think you should come Hell.

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Speaker 4: At the time was accused of child's ex abuse, and

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Speaker 4: he's since been acquitted. But Minchin, known for his satire,

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Speaker 4: wrote the song and it was about inviting Pell to

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Speaker 4: come home and face his accusers, and he raised money.

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Speaker 4: The song was raising money as well to send the

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Speaker 4: alleged victims over to see Pell in Rome. You know

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Speaker 4: co yeah, it was great song.

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Speaker 2: And also just to clarify, it was the victims of

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Speaker 2: a priest that Hell was supposed to have protected.

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Speaker 3: Got it, yes, right.

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Speaker 4: The song was viewed millions of times, and speaking to

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Speaker 4: Good Weekend Talks, Mintionin said.

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Speaker 6: I've been part of massive public shaming with pell and

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Speaker 6: stuff and stuff. I reflect on now and what are

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Speaker 6: the possible unintended consequences? And now we have ten years

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Speaker 6: of data, twelve years of data, and the unintended consequence

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Speaker 6: is a divided nation. Probably we should be very very

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Speaker 6: careful with public shah as a rule, because how why

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Speaker 6: are you the moral arbiter? Public shaming cannot be the

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Speaker 6: primary mechanism because it will just it'll come for you.

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Speaker 4: Mention has a new book out, and he has spoken

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Speaker 4: on this interview and across other media about his issues

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Speaker 4: with wokeness, and he has been self critical of his

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Speaker 4: own and this is his words, performative righteousness.

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Speaker 1: What's his book about?

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Speaker 6: Is this?

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Speaker 1: What his book's about?

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Speaker 4: His book is actually three different addresses he has given

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Speaker 4: to universities and stuff when he's like spoken, so they're

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Speaker 4: like speeches, and I think one of them is about

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Speaker 4: like nine lessons for life, and he's compiled them into

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Speaker 4: this book.

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Speaker 1: Actually, funnily enough, I watched that on YouTube just the

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Speaker 1: other day. He gave it about ten years ago, and

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Speaker 1: it was really interesting because I've got to give a

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Speaker 1: speech night speech, and I was looking for ideas and

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Speaker 1: it's actually fantastic. Oh, it's still the test of time.

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Speaker 1: We'll pop it in the newsletter this week.

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Speaker 4: Well, this echoes a conversation I heard recently on No Filter,

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Speaker 4: where you maya interviewed Africa Brook, who wrote a viral

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Speaker 4: open Legs in twenty twenty one titled why I'm leaving

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Speaker 4: the Cult of Wokeness, And while criticizing wokeness isn't necessarily new,

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Speaker 4: what we are seeing more of is self proclaimed lefties

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Speaker 4: or progressives announced that they are leaving the party. Mia,

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Speaker 4: Why do you think that is?

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Speaker 1: I've left the party because I think that in many

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Speaker 1: ways the left has become. It used to be the

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Speaker 1: right that was very in favor of censorship and silencing

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Speaker 1: people and shutting people down, and they still are, I

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Speaker 1: guess in a way.

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Speaker 2: They like to burn books and ban them from libraries

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Speaker 2: and take away women's rights, so they do still quite

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Speaker 2: like to cancel things.

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Speaker 1: Actually, that's true. But what the left does is, to me,

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Speaker 1: cancelation is different to like book banning or anything, because

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Speaker 1: it's cloaked in this fake virtue. Maybe it's real virtue.

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Speaker 1: To me, there's a lot of of tribal virtue signaling

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Speaker 1: and moral purity and saying you're not pure enough, you're

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Speaker 1: not pure enough. And then eventually, then, as Tim Minchin

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Speaker 1: pointed out, eventually everybody will get canceled because no one

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Speaker 1: is pure enough, right, so there will always be someone

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Speaker 1: that is less privileged than news.

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Speaker 4: So do you think that that is part of why

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Speaker 4: we're seeing progressives put the hand up and go I'm

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Speaker 4: done with wokeness because it came for everyone eventually. Like

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Speaker 4: because if you see Minchin and he's sort of had

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Speaker 4: that pel moment, and I'm sure he stands by the

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Speaker 4: politics of what he said. It sounds like the platform

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Speaker 4: by which he did it, he's kind of going, oh,

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Speaker 4: I don't know if that was.

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Speaker 1: He does stand by it, and he said, I wrote

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Speaker 1: that song after making sure I researched the fact that

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Speaker 1: he'd caught all these flights and that he would only

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Speaker 1: been examined by a doctor in the Vatican, so I

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Speaker 1: guess you could say he gave George Pell the benefit

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Speaker 1: of the doubt in some ways, but then it was

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Speaker 1: very much about mocking and ridicule and shaming him. People

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Speaker 1: would say that perhaps he deserved that, and it's certainly

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Speaker 1: how we all felt then and even perhaps now. But

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Speaker 1: tim Mentioned's point is that by everybody dog piling onto

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Speaker 1: someone who's maybe And again, it's really hard to talk

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Speaker 1: about this without because relating a whole lot of different things, right,

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Speaker 1: because George Pell and all of that, and Harvey Weinstein

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Speaker 1: and all of that, and Luis c. K and all

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Speaker 1: of that. You know, there are allegations and sometimes convictions

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Speaker 1: of actual crimes. When someone tells a joke that doesn't land,

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Speaker 1: or uses a word that perhaps isn't used anymore because

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Speaker 1: we now understand it to be offensive to a particular

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Speaker 1: group of people. To me, that's very different. That's not

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Speaker 1: actually a crime. That might be a mistake, that might

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Speaker 1: be reckless, that might be careless, that might be insensitive,

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Speaker 1: But often the treatment is flattened and the intention is

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Speaker 1: just completely lost.

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Speaker 4: Holly, do you think that this is a broader trend?

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Speaker 4: Am I imagining it? Or am I seeing more people

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Speaker 4: who I would think. I mean, I'm a leftier, just

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Speaker 4: am people who are I think I would politically align

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Speaker 4: with being more critical of the left.

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Speaker 3: Are you saying that?

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Speaker 2: I think I don't really understand what leaving the Party

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Speaker 2: of Wokeness means. And I understand it in Africa Brooks case.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I love that interview, and I've read a

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Speaker 2: lot a lot that she has written and listened to

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Speaker 2: her a lot. I think she's really interesting. But I

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Speaker 2: think that Wokeness has been built up into a boogeyman

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Speaker 2: that actually it's fake. I don't think it exists. I

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Speaker 2: don't know when you say I've left that party, I

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Speaker 2: don't know what it means. What do you mean I've.

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Speaker 1: Become increasingly disillusioned? And only because it's become And again

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Speaker 1: it's not everybody who is left leaning. I mean they're

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Speaker 1: talking big generalizations. There's a mean spirited nastiness and a

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Speaker 1: desire to shut people down, even the word cancelation, and

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Speaker 1: silence them and deplatform them if you disagree with them.

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Speaker 1: And Tim Mention's point is that he says it's not

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Speaker 1: particularly constructive when the left calls anyone they disagree with

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Speaker 1: a fashion yeah or a racist or a homophom or

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Speaker 1: a transpher you can't and some of those people might be.

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Speaker 1: But it's become such a.

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Speaker 2: Like about leaving behind public shaming, leaving behind sort of flattening,

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Speaker 2: of making every issue entirely binary. It's leaving behind shouting

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Speaker 2: about causes that you don't know enough about on social.

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Speaker 1: Media, moral police.

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Speaker 2: Because I think I'd be very happy to leave all

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Speaker 2: that behind, and broadly I have. But I think that

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Speaker 2: the obsession with wokeness comes from the right, particularly in Australia.

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Speaker 2: It's something that the Liberal Party and they love to

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Speaker 2: bang on about because it sounds like big and scary

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Speaker 2: and it's policing and it's stopping us from saying what

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Speaker 2: we want to say. You'll actually see that in America,

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Speaker 2: it's become very clear that wokeness has been left out

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Speaker 2: of democratic politics in this election that we're looking at.

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Speaker 2: You know that from a lot of progressives in Democrats,

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Speaker 2: they're like, common has left us behind, and we're not

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Speaker 2: talking about identity politics the way that we were four

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Speaker 2: years ago or eight years ago. And I think that's true.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the problems with the round bashing

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Speaker 2: of it as an eye idea is it looks away

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Speaker 2: from the moment in time from where it came, right

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Speaker 2: like Donald Trump getting elected. And I know we talk

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Speaker 2: way too much about America, but it's a cultural atmosphere

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Speaker 2: that trickled through everywhere. Right Donald Trump getting elected in

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Speaker 2: twenty sixteen really put a lot of people in were terrified.

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Speaker 2: Remember the pussy hats and the resistance and that all

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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff is it felt like a fight

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Speaker 2: or flight moment and whose side are you on? And

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Speaker 2: are you on the side of rightness or wrongness? And

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Speaker 2: that is always way too simplistic a way to look

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Speaker 2: at politics. But on the other hand, it felt like that.

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Speaker 2: And if you're a woman who lives in a conservative

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Speaker 2: state in the US, it would absolutely still feel like

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Speaker 2: that the whole What I completely agree with you, so,

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Speaker 2: I mean, so, what I'm trying to get to is

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Speaker 2: the point that when we just broadly criticize wokeness, I

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Speaker 2: think we kind of ignore that it was an extreme

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Speaker 2: reaction to something extreme, do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: I agree, And I think what is unfortunate is that

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Speaker 1: it's ended up eating itself in that there was a

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Speaker 1: situation where there was a man who was elected president

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Speaker 1: who talked about grabbing a woman by the pussy and

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Speaker 1: all the other awful things that he said. And because

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Speaker 1: the world felt so out of control and we were

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Speaker 1: so viscerally shocked that someone who could say this in

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen could become president of what purports to be

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Speaker 1: the greatest democracy in the world, that the left was

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Speaker 1: so shocked by that they couldn't do anything about it.

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Speaker 1: So they started trying to control their own tribe, within

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Speaker 1: their own tribe. And that's where this idea of censorship

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Speaker 1: and moral purity meant. That things got smaller and smaller

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Speaker 1: and smaller. So instead of fighting the big fight, and

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Speaker 1: you know, while everybody was busy canceling someone who they shared,

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Speaker 1: you know, ninety nine percent of the ideology with because

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Speaker 1: they used a word or told about joke or whatever,

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Speaker 1: Meanwhile Roe versus Wade was taken away and the women's

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Speaker 1: right to reproductive choice was taken away. And I understand

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Speaker 1: again where it came from, because it came from feeling

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Speaker 1: so powerless. I can't control anything in the world, but

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Speaker 1: I can cancel this person who said this bad one.

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Speaker 2: You've also got to remember that it also coincided with

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Speaker 2: obviously broadly with mass social media. And although we can

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Speaker 2: be very cynical about social media now, for very good reason,

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Speaker 2: it also gave a voice to a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: people who we never had to listen to before. Right,

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Speaker 2: if you put your mind back to a time when

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Speaker 2: the only media was controlled by big organizations and the

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Speaker 2: gatekeepers of those things were very from a very specific

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Speaker 2: group of people, You've also got to remember that social

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Speaker 2: media is a platform for social activism and cause advancement

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Speaker 2: in lots of ways has been great. Me too would

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Speaker 2: never have happened without it, nor would lots of other

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Speaker 2: really positive things. So you give a mic to a

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Speaker 2: lot of people who didn't have mics before, and they're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about the things that are important to them.

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Speaker 2: I think we kind of flatten it when we just

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Speaker 2: say it's terrible, don't use social media to express an opinion.

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Speaker 1: Now, hang on, hang on. But that's not what waitness is.

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Speaker 1: Because everyone's got the right to an opinion, But it's

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Speaker 1: the idea of your opinion shouldn't exist if it's different

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Speaker 1: to mine, and you're a fascist if it's black.

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Speaker 3: And white thinking.

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Speaker 4: And I think that it's a definitional issue sometimes because

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Speaker 4: it started off. It was derived from African American vernacular English.

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Speaker 4: It originally meant alertness to racial prejudice and discrimination.

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Speaker 1: It was a compliment, and it was also is literal.

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Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, sometimes you need your eyes opened. You

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Speaker 2: can't see what you can't see.

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Speaker 4: But in terms of what it evolved into, and I

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Speaker 4: do think it evolved, is that it's now considered sort

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Speaker 4: of left wing attitudes or practices that are about opposing

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Speaker 4: social injustice or discrimination, but they're viewed as self righteous

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Speaker 4: or manitious or insincere.

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Speaker 3: And I actually think it has.

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Speaker 4: Less to do with Trump and more to do with

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Speaker 4: the Internet, like woke, isn't it Generally it's to do

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Speaker 4: with the two dimensional black and white view of the

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Speaker 4: internet and how most of our sometimes all of our

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Speaker 4: discussions are occurring online. And what I think has happened

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Speaker 4: is that when you're in it, or maybe it's taking

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Speaker 4: a step back, you see that there are a lot

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Speaker 4: of logical fallacies or contradictions, or a lot of hypocrisy

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Speaker 4: within this ideology that you start going this doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 4: If you're about diversity, yet there isn't allowed to be

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Speaker 4: any diversity of opinion, Then there's hypocrisy there that frustrates people.

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Speaker 2: But there's no diversity of opinion on the other side either.

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Speaker 2: Have you been on Twitter lately? Oh?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: But the thing is, with all the and Tim Minchin

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Speaker 4: has actually said this, with all the yelling at the right,

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Speaker 4: which I am there, like Trump deserves all the criticism

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Speaker 4: in the world, it doesn't mean that we don't have

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Speaker 4: notes to take.

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Speaker 3: Is how he's put it.

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Speaker 4: And I think that progressives are also doing a bit

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Speaker 4: of soul searching because whatever we've been doing for the

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Speaker 4: last decade isn't working. And if you think it is,

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Speaker 4: it's like, just look at the state of things. And

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Speaker 4: we talked yesterday in the subscriber episode about Trump. It

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Speaker 4: briefly came up the Brittany Mahomes and Taylor Swift incident.

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Speaker 4: I would think that kind of a wo kism mightyology

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Speaker 4: has led us to think that sitting beside someone who

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Speaker 4: likes a social media post by a different presidential candidate is.

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Speaker 3: Akin to literal evil like and.

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Speaker 2: That is just that's not exclusive to the left. Plenty

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Speaker 2: of people on the right who think exactly that. Have

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Speaker 2: you seen what Donald Trum's been tweeting about Taylor.

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Speaker 4: Lot I'm with you, but isn't that just going But

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Speaker 4: they do it too, But they do it mean. But

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Speaker 4: this is my point, right is I agree with both

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Speaker 4: of you entirely about shamy, judgy, pointlessness of infighting and everything.

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Speaker 4: But I think that building wokeness up as the enemy,

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Speaker 4: to me, is a gift to the real enemy. Who

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Speaker 4: are the people want to take us back and take

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Speaker 4: back the progress that women and minority groups have made.

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Speaker 4: It's a nice easy straw man, in my opinion, to go. Well,

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of young, idealistic people shouting on the

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Speaker 4: internet who have extreme opinions and they are telling other

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Speaker 4: people what to do and calling them out and all

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Speaker 4: the things, and that's the enemy, And in my mind,

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Speaker 4: they're not actually the people we need to have our

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Speaker 4: eyes on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, because I know what has been

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Speaker 1: most scarring for me is not being called names by

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Speaker 1: people on the right. It's being called names by people

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Speaker 1: on the left. And it's not the actual well, it

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Speaker 1: is the actual names. It goes to character like it

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Speaker 1: goes to your I mean, it's easy to dismiss if

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Speaker 1: someone says you're a fat, dumb blah blah whatever. But

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Speaker 1: when the left says words like racist, homophobe. I'm not

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Speaker 1: talking particularly about me, but about someone fascist. That's very

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Speaker 1: different to someone just slagging me off, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean. And that's very different too. If someone says, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're so woke, it can be dismissive, I agree, and

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Speaker 1: it can be weaponary.

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Speaker 2: They say groomer, you know, to gay people, they say

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Speaker 2: you're a groomer. They is just as divisive.

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Speaker 3: You do, think you're right?

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Speaker 4: I think that to unpick wocism and put that to

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Speaker 4: the side, I actually think Africa Brooks said it perfectly

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Speaker 4: on the front cover of her book. She calls it

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Speaker 4: the age of intolerance. And that's both.

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Speaker 2: That's the issue.

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Speaker 3: That's the issue, right, it's in my mind that's there

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Speaker 3: because there's.

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Speaker 4: Not enough diversity of opinion in any political party and

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Speaker 4: any ideology. All of these logical fallacies that we see

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Speaker 4: from like slippery slope stuff to the language that we use.

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Speaker 4: You know, when you see something on social media or

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Speaker 4: you see a trend and you go, this just doesn't

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Speaker 4: feel right, like it just doesn't feel true or whatever,

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Speaker 4: like you're probably right. So we hear things like silence

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Speaker 4: is violence or believe women, which might actually in some

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Speaker 4: cases be true and in the correct context work, but

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Speaker 4: they don't work in every context, and so there are

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Speaker 4: these sort of sprawling generalizations.

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Speaker 1: And or an orthodoxy. It's like you have to have

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Speaker 1: all of these beliefs, and if you divert from these

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Speaker 1: orthodox beliefs that someone is a gatekeeper of we will

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Speaker 1: surveil you. We will look at what posts you like,

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Speaker 1: We will check to see what you have or haven't posted,

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Speaker 1: and we will question your humanity and base you those

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Speaker 1: names based on that. And then, yeah, that idea is

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Speaker 1: surveillance and control.

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Speaker 4: And the danger I suppose is and I think that

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Speaker 4: this exists to some extent for a lot of people,

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Speaker 4: not just if you're in the public eye, but that

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Speaker 4: your whole moral quality or your character is the product

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Speaker 4: of what you've put on social media or something, as

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Speaker 4: though those two things, as though it's an actual avatar

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Speaker 4: for who you are in real life. And everyone that

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Speaker 4: we we know is complicated, and we all sit at

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Speaker 4: family Christmases beside people who think differently politically to how

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Speaker 4: we do, and I think that's really important, and we

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Speaker 4: kind of talk about that being important, But then, yeah,

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Speaker 4: something happens on social media where it just goes No,

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Speaker 4: I think I know the whole person, or I can

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Speaker 4: sum you up because of what you have or having.

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Speaker 2: Some of us have just figured out that that's not

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Speaker 2: the right place to have these conversations. Right, So, if

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Speaker 2: I think about myself, obviously I've become increasingly like public

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Speaker 2: I suppose obviously over the past decade as I've used

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Speaker 2: social media. But even when having opinions about these kind

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Speaker 2: of things wasn't part of my job, which it kind

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Speaker 2: of is, we sit here and espouse our opinions about

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Speaker 2: stuff all the time, right, I would definitely have been

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Speaker 2: much more opinionated on social media one hundred percent. Now

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Speaker 2: these days, I'm incredibly, incredibly unlikely to express a political

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Speaker 2: opinion on Instagram because in my mind it's not the

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Speaker 2: place for it. But sometimes that is very hard, like

436
00:21:40,967 --> 00:21:43,407
Speaker 2: as in, there are things that you do believe it,

437
00:21:43,607 --> 00:21:47,607
Speaker 2: very deeply cultural positions that you'd take that would be

438
00:21:47,647 --> 00:21:53,087
Speaker 2: considered political, that you would like to go, look at this, everybody,

439
00:21:53,207 --> 00:21:56,007
Speaker 2: this is outrageous, but you know the storm it will cause,

440
00:21:56,047 --> 00:21:58,327
Speaker 2: and so you don't write. And there's a lot of

441
00:21:58,327 --> 00:22:00,287
Speaker 2: thought which I agree with, that actually the bigger the

442
00:22:00,287 --> 00:22:02,407
Speaker 2: audience you have, and it's not like my audience is massive.

443
00:22:02,727 --> 00:22:04,927
Speaker 2: But the more cautious you have to be about that,

444
00:22:05,007 --> 00:22:08,287
Speaker 2: because your influence is enormous, right, as in much bigger

445
00:22:08,327 --> 00:22:12,327
Speaker 2: than you realize. So I understand that it's a fine line.

446
00:22:12,367 --> 00:22:14,607
Speaker 2: I mean, I would use for myself an example of

447
00:22:14,647 --> 00:22:17,367
Speaker 2: the referendum on the Voice last year. I had really

448
00:22:17,447 --> 00:22:21,407
Speaker 2: strong opinions about that, and obviously on our podcast, shoving

449
00:22:21,407 --> 00:22:23,487
Speaker 2: our opinions down people's throat isn't what we do, even

450
00:22:23,487 --> 00:22:25,247
Speaker 2: though some people might think it is. It's actually not.

451
00:22:25,287 --> 00:22:29,287
Speaker 2: We're very careful about not doing that. But if I

452
00:22:29,527 --> 00:22:31,687
Speaker 2: wasn't as aware as I am of how what an

453
00:22:31,767 --> 00:22:34,527
Speaker 2: unhelpful place that was for conversation, I would have posted

454
00:22:34,567 --> 00:22:36,887
Speaker 2: about that a lot more, and I would have been

455
00:22:36,927 --> 00:22:39,727
Speaker 2: involved in that a lot more. But you knew that

456
00:22:39,847 --> 00:22:43,607
Speaker 2: by doing it you were leading to a divisive conversation, right,

457
00:22:44,087 --> 00:22:45,407
Speaker 2: so you pull yourself back.

458
00:22:45,447 --> 00:22:48,327
Speaker 1: I don't want no one ever had their mind changed

459
00:22:49,047 --> 00:22:51,287
Speaker 1: by being shouted at or no.

460
00:22:51,247 --> 00:22:54,207
Speaker 2: But did they have, well, but didn't know. I agree

461
00:22:54,207 --> 00:22:56,007
Speaker 2: with you that no one's ever had then mine changed

462
00:22:56,047 --> 00:22:57,887
Speaker 2: by being shouted on social media. I agree with that

463
00:22:58,087 --> 00:23:01,807
Speaker 2: so much, the scolding nature. But have I learnt a

464
00:23:01,847 --> 00:23:04,887
Speaker 2: lot of things from seeing other people's perspectives on social

465
00:23:04,927 --> 00:23:06,887
Speaker 2: media that I would never come across in my day

466
00:23:06,927 --> 00:23:09,887
Speaker 2: to day life. One hundred percent. Yes, have I been

467
00:23:09,927 --> 00:23:12,887
Speaker 2: exposed to some really interesting ideas that I go. Do

468
00:23:12,967 --> 00:23:15,167
Speaker 2: I agree with that? Maybe I agree with a bit

469
00:23:15,167 --> 00:23:17,007
Speaker 2: of that, but not that on social media.

470
00:23:17,047 --> 00:23:17,687
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

471
00:23:17,767 --> 00:23:20,767
Speaker 2: Yes. I don't think that we should be suggesting it

472
00:23:20,767 --> 00:23:25,247
Speaker 2: should just become more to all my tomato plants or

473
00:23:25,287 --> 00:23:26,527
Speaker 2: your shoes or whatever.

474
00:23:26,607 --> 00:23:26,807
Speaker 1: You know.

475
00:23:27,367 --> 00:23:29,567
Speaker 2: I think that we've all told ourselves for a while

476
00:23:29,607 --> 00:23:32,047
Speaker 2: that it was the public square, and what we've realized

477
00:23:32,127 --> 00:23:33,607
Speaker 2: is it's not the public square.

478
00:23:33,727 --> 00:23:35,647
Speaker 1: But away from social media for a second, I want

479
00:23:35,647 --> 00:23:38,567
Speaker 1: to talk to this idea of wokeness and anti wokeness.

480
00:23:39,047 --> 00:23:43,927
Speaker 1: We're seeing a massive divide between the ideology of teenage

481
00:23:43,967 --> 00:23:46,487
Speaker 1: girls and teenage boys, or young girls and young boys,

482
00:23:47,127 --> 00:23:51,647
Speaker 1: and girls are becoming increasingly left and boys are becoming

483
00:23:51,687 --> 00:23:56,007
Speaker 1: increasingly right. And I so see those things connected. And

484
00:23:56,047 --> 00:23:57,967
Speaker 1: anyone who's got a son and a daughter who are

485
00:23:58,007 --> 00:24:03,047
Speaker 1: teenagers or young adults in their own house, we'll see

486
00:24:03,527 --> 00:24:06,807
Speaker 1: how that's playing out in real life in many instances.

487
00:24:07,327 --> 00:24:11,007
Speaker 1: And I think that when you start shaming people and

488
00:24:11,087 --> 00:24:14,527
Speaker 1: telling them they are bad and they are homophobic, and

489
00:24:14,567 --> 00:24:16,647
Speaker 1: they are racist, and they are blah blah because they

490
00:24:16,847 --> 00:24:20,087
Speaker 1: maybe used a word, or when you're writing them off

491
00:24:20,127 --> 00:24:23,647
Speaker 1: and trying to make them feel ashamed, that doesn't bring

492
00:24:23,687 --> 00:24:26,487
Speaker 1: them around. You've always said this about all the studies

493
00:24:26,527 --> 00:24:31,527
Speaker 1: around obesity, and if you stigmatize someone, that doesn't make

494
00:24:31,567 --> 00:24:34,967
Speaker 1: them more likely to make a different choice or to

495
00:24:35,487 --> 00:24:38,047
Speaker 1: lose weight if that's what's required for their health. It

496
00:24:38,127 --> 00:24:41,967
Speaker 1: actually will do often the opposite. Yeah, And I look,

497
00:24:42,167 --> 00:24:44,567
Speaker 1: I think the same for if you shame someone about who.

498
00:24:44,447 --> 00:24:45,967
Speaker 3: They are on both sides.

499
00:24:46,207 --> 00:24:50,047
Speaker 4: I think if you look at history and how whether

500
00:24:50,087 --> 00:24:54,167
Speaker 4: it's civil rights or LGBTQI rights, the only way that

501
00:24:54,207 --> 00:24:57,687
Speaker 4: those things ever happened was because descent was allowed and

502
00:24:57,727 --> 00:25:00,527
Speaker 4: because different opinions were allowed to float to the surface.

503
00:25:00,527 --> 00:25:04,127
Speaker 4: So the people who are going this authoritarian tone where

504
00:25:04,127 --> 00:25:05,967
Speaker 4: we yell at each other and we have groupthink and

505
00:25:06,007 --> 00:25:07,527
Speaker 4: there are things you can say and that there are

506
00:25:07,567 --> 00:25:10,687
Speaker 4: things you can't say. That that's a really dangerous history.

507
00:25:11,047 --> 00:25:14,127
Speaker 4: I agree in pushing back at that. And Tim Mintion

508
00:25:14,207 --> 00:25:16,847
Speaker 4: has also talked about the principle of charity, which I'm

509
00:25:16,847 --> 00:25:18,887
Speaker 4: sure we've talked about on this show before your cousin

510
00:25:18,927 --> 00:25:22,167
Speaker 4: has a podcast by that name Maya. But the principle

511
00:25:22,207 --> 00:25:25,447
Speaker 4: of charity is the philosophical concept that when you hear

512
00:25:25,487 --> 00:25:28,247
Speaker 4: someone else's argument, you give them the benefit of the doubt, essentially,

513
00:25:28,407 --> 00:25:30,327
Speaker 4: and you assume they're coming from a good place, and

514
00:25:30,367 --> 00:25:32,727
Speaker 4: then you go with the argument. But what we're seeing

515
00:25:32,767 --> 00:25:36,487
Speaker 4: increasingly online I've seen people disagree, and I actually think

516
00:25:36,487 --> 00:25:39,287
Speaker 4: the disagreement online is fine, but you've just lost me

517
00:25:39,407 --> 00:25:42,607
Speaker 4: the second that you go, it's laced with ridicule or

518
00:25:42,607 --> 00:25:45,087
Speaker 4: contempt or something ridiculously personal.

519
00:25:45,127 --> 00:25:47,487
Speaker 1: And once you call someone a fascist and say that

520
00:25:47,527 --> 00:25:52,407
Speaker 1: their position is a moral or immoral, the argument's over.

521
00:25:52,687 --> 00:25:55,647
Speaker 1: And so often that's what people do, or they say,

522
00:25:55,927 --> 00:25:59,287
Speaker 1: you need to delete that instead of engaging with the argument.

523
00:25:59,647 --> 00:26:02,327
Speaker 1: They need to say that argument or that point of

524
00:26:02,407 --> 00:26:05,647
Speaker 1: view cannot even be in the world because I can't tolerate.

525
00:26:05,727 --> 00:26:07,847
Speaker 4: I think whatever happens with this election coming up in

526
00:26:08,087 --> 00:26:11,327
Speaker 4: the US, I think that will have a bearing whether

527
00:26:11,447 --> 00:26:13,807
Speaker 4: or not any lessons will learn from twenty sixteen about

528
00:26:13,847 --> 00:26:17,247
Speaker 4: you speaking well, just speaking across the divide. I mean,

529
00:26:17,287 --> 00:26:19,367
Speaker 4: I think that's the biggest cultural issue of our time.

530
00:26:19,447 --> 00:26:24,207
Speaker 2: But here's the thing. The Democrats are trying to do that.

531
00:26:24,247 --> 00:26:28,007
Speaker 2: They have literally put Republicans on their payroll. They are

532
00:26:28,087 --> 00:26:32,167
Speaker 2: literally saying we will put Republicans in our cabinet. They

533
00:26:32,167 --> 00:26:35,247
Speaker 2: are trying to do that. It's not an issue of

534
00:26:35,367 --> 00:26:38,687
Speaker 2: left and right. It's not. It's an issue of intolerance

535
00:26:38,767 --> 00:26:42,087
Speaker 2: and tolerance on both sides. And I think that personally,

536
00:26:42,087 --> 00:26:45,167
Speaker 2: I think workness died a while ago, and it's an insult.

537
00:26:45,287 --> 00:26:46,927
Speaker 1: Now what do you mean by that?

538
00:26:47,007 --> 00:26:50,007
Speaker 2: Because I think that that peak woke time was twenty

539
00:26:50,047 --> 00:26:52,927
Speaker 2: twenty twenty twenty twenty twenty two. Maybe I think that

540
00:26:52,967 --> 00:26:55,527
Speaker 2: workners died a while ago, and now it's an insult.

541
00:26:56,007 --> 00:27:01,327
Speaker 2: And personally, I'm not going to let annoying extremists take

542
00:27:01,407 --> 00:27:04,007
Speaker 2: my leftist values from me just because they might want

543
00:27:04,007 --> 00:27:05,647
Speaker 2: to weaponize them. Do you know what I mean? Like

544
00:27:06,167 --> 00:27:10,847
Speaker 2: the idea that somehow you're value use because some people

545
00:27:11,047 --> 00:27:13,247
Speaker 2: weaponize them and use them against other people, that that

546
00:27:13,327 --> 00:27:15,047
Speaker 2: means that your values are wrong. Like I'm not going

547
00:27:15,127 --> 00:27:15,807
Speaker 2: to let that happen.

548
00:27:23,687 --> 00:27:29,967
Speaker 1: Hell, it's time for recommendations, where we're going to tell

549
00:27:30,007 --> 00:27:35,167
Speaker 1: you, you know, how recommendations were, explain what one needs, closing

550
00:27:35,247 --> 00:27:39,407
Speaker 1: the names of recommendation I'm going first. You don't need

551
00:27:39,447 --> 00:27:41,527
Speaker 1: me to tell you this. In Vogue the nineties on

552
00:27:41,567 --> 00:27:46,327
Speaker 1: Disney Plus, what's the defining publication about fashion The Vogue

553
00:27:46,367 --> 00:27:51,967
Speaker 1: Vogue Bowls of course, Bogue's biggest forest an went tour.

554
00:27:52,087 --> 00:27:55,687
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm not taking SSEs all now I'm

555
00:27:55,687 --> 00:27:56,287
Speaker 2: going to wear them.

556
00:27:58,167 --> 00:28:00,247
Speaker 1: In the nineties, everything was changing.

557
00:28:00,327 --> 00:28:03,527
Speaker 2: It was a world way too massive, a crazy, amazing,

558
00:28:03,527 --> 00:28:04,487
Speaker 2: astonishing time.

559
00:28:04,927 --> 00:28:07,967
Speaker 6: The nineties terms of fashion industry upside down.

560
00:28:09,807 --> 00:28:15,247
Speaker 1: An outstanding doco. If you liked remember the Supermodels doco

561
00:28:15,287 --> 00:28:16,807
Speaker 1: that I think was on Apple Teby I can't remember.

562
00:28:17,047 --> 00:28:19,447
Speaker 1: We all love that. This is so much better because

563
00:28:19,487 --> 00:28:23,647
Speaker 1: it takes all the main characters from the nineties around

564
00:28:23,687 --> 00:28:27,287
Speaker 1: Anna Wintle, because that's the orbit around which everybody pivots.

565
00:28:27,767 --> 00:28:32,927
Speaker 1: But there's supermodels, there's designers, there's celebrities like Gwyneth Paltrow

566
00:28:33,607 --> 00:28:35,047
Speaker 1: and Sarah Jessica Parker.

567
00:28:35,407 --> 00:28:37,727
Speaker 2: Is it like, have they cooperated? Yeah, they're in it.

568
00:28:37,767 --> 00:28:40,287
Speaker 1: So it's all of those you know, like the format

569
00:28:40,367 --> 00:28:42,447
Speaker 1: of sitting down and you're at a table or you're

570
00:28:42,447 --> 00:28:45,207
Speaker 1: in your house, and so all the different locations. And

571
00:28:45,767 --> 00:28:50,047
Speaker 1: my favorite person is this iconic fashion editor called Carleen

572
00:28:50,487 --> 00:28:55,767
Speaker 1: de fonzel nerf or something. She's French. She's absolutely bonkers

573
00:28:55,807 --> 00:28:58,527
Speaker 1: in the best way. She's wearing these leopard boots. She's

574
00:28:58,567 --> 00:29:01,527
Speaker 1: probably about seventy five guys. Conington's in it, all the

575
00:29:01,607 --> 00:29:04,407
Speaker 1: key stylists that were worked at American Vogue and orbited

576
00:29:04,447 --> 00:29:08,247
Speaker 1: around Anna, and just the things they say, and they

577
00:29:08,247 --> 00:29:11,567
Speaker 1: talk about the George My Call Freedom video. Okay Moss

578
00:29:11,647 --> 00:29:14,447
Speaker 1: is in it, cap Moss. Can I just say it's

579
00:29:14,567 --> 00:29:18,007
Speaker 1: really jarring to hear her talk. Firstly, she sounds like

580
00:29:18,127 --> 00:29:21,167
Speaker 1: she has the worst smokers coffe you've ever heard, Like

581
00:29:21,247 --> 00:29:24,687
Speaker 1: she wheezes. You can just she's parted hard about limit

582
00:29:24,727 --> 00:29:27,007
Speaker 1: of life because she's so iconic. One of the most

583
00:29:27,007 --> 00:29:29,447
Speaker 1: interesting choices, and many say the smartest is that she

584
00:29:29,527 --> 00:29:32,287
Speaker 1: decided a long time ago not to give interviews. This

585
00:29:32,407 --> 00:29:34,807
Speaker 1: is one of the only interviews I've ever heard her give.

586
00:29:34,967 --> 00:29:38,487
Speaker 1: She never almost never speaks, never did through the whole nineties,

587
00:29:38,727 --> 00:29:41,287
Speaker 1: and so she was able to sort of create this

588
00:29:41,727 --> 00:29:45,687
Speaker 1: air of mystery and iconic status. And oh, it's just

589
00:29:45,727 --> 00:29:46,127
Speaker 1: so good.

590
00:29:46,127 --> 00:29:47,967
Speaker 2: It's fourteen hours long.

591
00:29:48,127 --> 00:29:50,407
Speaker 1: I'm up to the third episode. I don't know. Yeah,

592
00:29:50,407 --> 00:29:52,567
Speaker 1: there's quite a few. There's quite a few hours of it.

593
00:29:52,767 --> 00:29:54,767
Speaker 1: In the nineties, a lot of it was like a movie.

594
00:29:54,927 --> 00:29:55,047
Speaker 3: No.

595
00:29:55,047 --> 00:29:57,527
Speaker 1: No, the nineties were long. So I'm up to about

596
00:29:57,567 --> 00:30:00,447
Speaker 1: episode two or three. But it's glorious.

597
00:30:00,847 --> 00:30:02,567
Speaker 2: I am so hair for your recommendation.

598
00:30:02,767 --> 00:30:04,127
Speaker 3: Yeah, Holly, what have you got?

599
00:30:04,167 --> 00:30:07,207
Speaker 2: I'm cheating. I've got two Okay. The only reason I've

600
00:30:07,207 --> 00:30:08,767
Speaker 2: got too is because the first one is gonna be

601
00:30:08,807 --> 00:30:11,767
Speaker 2: real fast, because it's actually you can't explain it right.

602
00:30:12,127 --> 00:30:14,287
Speaker 2: There is a comedy show on ABC iView at the

603
00:30:14,287 --> 00:30:18,687
Speaker 2: minute called Guy Montgomery's Spelling Bee. That is, as it sounds,

604
00:30:18,807 --> 00:30:21,287
Speaker 2: a spelling bee hosted by a Key Week comedian called

605
00:30:21,327 --> 00:30:21,967
Speaker 2: Gay Montgomery.

606
00:30:22,047 --> 00:30:26,367
Speaker 7: Hey, Aaron, how do you spell Australian Broadcasting Corporation ABC.

607
00:30:27,047 --> 00:30:28,927
Speaker 7: It's more of an acronym than a correct spelling, but

608
00:30:28,967 --> 00:30:31,847
Speaker 7: I'll accept it because that's precisely with Viewers will find

609
00:30:31,847 --> 00:30:35,087
Speaker 7: Guy Montgomery's Game on Spelling Bee, the thrilling new show

610
00:30:35,087 --> 00:30:38,487
Speaker 7: that challenges Australia's beers comedians in the ancient art of spelling.

611
00:30:38,847 --> 00:30:40,767
Speaker 7: Join myself and Aaron Chin as we put them to

612
00:30:40,807 --> 00:30:42,367
Speaker 7: the test and watch them squirm.

613
00:30:42,687 --> 00:30:45,327
Speaker 3: I think this show will be totally OMG.

614
00:30:45,607 --> 00:30:47,807
Speaker 7: That is an acronym.

615
00:30:47,887 --> 00:30:50,247
Speaker 2: It is so funny. I watch it with Brent. It's

616
00:30:50,287 --> 00:30:53,847
Speaker 2: like our weekend nighttime treat. I'm like falling off the

617
00:30:53,847 --> 00:30:55,727
Speaker 2: couch laughing. But I can't tell you why.

618
00:30:55,847 --> 00:30:58,087
Speaker 3: Like it's just he is very fun.

619
00:30:58,167 --> 00:31:00,647
Speaker 1: It's just very never him like it's great.

620
00:31:00,727 --> 00:31:01,887
Speaker 2: It's very stupid.

621
00:31:02,007 --> 00:31:03,007
Speaker 1: But it's kids.

622
00:31:03,327 --> 00:31:06,007
Speaker 2: No, it's not kids, it's so it's comedians, and so

623
00:31:06,047 --> 00:31:09,847
Speaker 2: it's all Australian comedians, most of whom can't spell Aaron

624
00:31:09,927 --> 00:31:12,487
Speaker 2: Chen who anyone who watches fisk Oh, I love it.

625
00:31:12,487 --> 00:31:14,807
Speaker 2: It's just unbelievably good. But I can't really explain to

626
00:31:14,807 --> 00:31:16,087
Speaker 2: you why. But if you just want to laugh, go

627
00:31:16,127 --> 00:31:18,087
Speaker 2: watch that. The thing I can tell you about is

628
00:31:18,087 --> 00:31:19,767
Speaker 2: a book that I've actually been dying to tell you

629
00:31:19,847 --> 00:31:22,127
Speaker 2: all about since I read it a while ago. But

630
00:31:22,207 --> 00:31:23,887
Speaker 2: I was waiting for the author to be on mid

631
00:31:23,887 --> 00:31:26,407
Speaker 2: this week, which she was. So it's a book, an

632
00:31:26,447 --> 00:31:29,167
Speaker 2: Australian fiction book called Tilda is Visible by an author

633
00:31:29,207 --> 00:31:32,767
Speaker 2: called Jane Tara. Now it has the best premise of

634
00:31:32,807 --> 00:31:35,087
Speaker 2: a book I've heard of for so long. It is

635
00:31:35,127 --> 00:31:37,967
Speaker 2: not surprising that it is currently subject of a bit

636
00:31:38,007 --> 00:31:40,967
Speaker 2: of a bidding war in Hollywood because it's about a woman,

637
00:31:41,007 --> 00:31:43,887
Speaker 2: a midlife woman who's life's in the toilet. She wakes

638
00:31:43,967 --> 00:31:47,567
Speaker 2: up one day and half her little finger has disappeared.

639
00:31:48,087 --> 00:31:51,487
Speaker 2: It's there, you just can't see it. And she's like what.

640
00:31:51,727 --> 00:31:53,767
Speaker 2: She thinks she's going crazy. And then she wakes up

641
00:31:53,767 --> 00:31:55,887
Speaker 2: the next day and the tip of her ear lobe

642
00:31:55,967 --> 00:31:59,407
Speaker 2: has disappeared, and so she goes to the doctor and

643
00:31:59,447 --> 00:32:02,207
Speaker 2: she's like, I don't know what's happening. And then the

644
00:32:02,247 --> 00:32:05,807
Speaker 2: doctor examines her and the doctor's like, oh, you're becoming invisible.

645
00:32:05,847 --> 00:32:09,087
Speaker 2: That's a condition that happens to lots of midlife women.

646
00:32:09,367 --> 00:32:10,967
Speaker 3: Oh my god, it's so good.

647
00:32:11,007 --> 00:32:14,007
Speaker 2: And there's like a support group for invisible midlife women

648
00:32:14,047 --> 00:32:16,207
Speaker 2: and there's like she said, like who like who and

649
00:32:16,287 --> 00:32:19,687
Speaker 2: the like remember that comedian such and such, And she's like, yeah,

650
00:32:19,687 --> 00:32:21,807
Speaker 2: whatever happened to her, she became invisible.

651
00:32:22,127 --> 00:32:24,767
Speaker 3: It's like that's so creative.

652
00:32:24,447 --> 00:32:27,327
Speaker 2: So clever. It is so funny. And then the book itself,

653
00:32:27,567 --> 00:32:29,567
Speaker 2: it's a novel, but it also kind of goes into

654
00:32:30,087 --> 00:32:32,967
Speaker 2: sort of self helpy world. Jane herself, as she talks

655
00:32:32,967 --> 00:32:36,007
Speaker 2: about on mid went into a very sort of meditation

656
00:32:36,087 --> 00:32:39,207
Speaker 2: almost woo wooy place to get through her midlife crisis

657
00:32:39,527 --> 00:32:41,167
Speaker 2: and so does Tilda, and so then she goes on

658
00:32:41,207 --> 00:32:43,847
Speaker 2: all that and it's just really it's a great book.

659
00:32:43,887 --> 00:32:46,967
Speaker 2: What can I tell you? It's very clever Australian fiction book.

660
00:32:46,967 --> 00:32:47,887
Speaker 2: It's by Jane Tara.

661
00:32:47,967 --> 00:32:49,367
Speaker 3: It's called Tilda Is Visible.

662
00:32:49,527 --> 00:32:51,087
Speaker 1: Can we hear her on Mid this week?

663
00:32:51,407 --> 00:32:53,127
Speaker 2: She is on Mid this week. We'll put the link

664
00:32:53,167 --> 00:32:55,087
Speaker 2: in the show notes. We talk about invisibility.

665
00:32:55,407 --> 00:32:56,167
Speaker 3: My recommendation.

666
00:32:56,527 --> 00:32:59,247
Speaker 4: You know when you are reading a fantastic book and

667
00:32:59,527 --> 00:33:02,487
Speaker 4: you're always half in another world, You're just walking around

668
00:33:02,527 --> 00:33:03,767
Speaker 4: in another world and you're another.

669
00:33:03,567 --> 00:33:05,247
Speaker 1: Character and you just want to get back to it.

670
00:33:05,287 --> 00:33:06,847
Speaker 3: And it's a break from yourself.

671
00:33:06,887 --> 00:33:09,167
Speaker 4: You're not you anymore. You become someone else for a while.

672
00:33:09,647 --> 00:33:11,887
Speaker 4: At the moment, I am a single mother's two children

673
00:33:12,007 --> 00:33:13,207
Speaker 4: because I am Missy Higgins.

674
00:33:13,287 --> 00:33:15,727
Speaker 1: Oh yes, because she's written a book.

675
00:33:16,167 --> 00:33:18,167
Speaker 4: Well this is the thing, and this I don't often

676
00:33:18,167 --> 00:33:22,127
Speaker 4: get this from music, but there is something about Missy

677
00:33:22,207 --> 00:33:25,647
Speaker 4: Higgins's songwriting that feels like I'm reading a book that's

678
00:33:25,687 --> 00:33:30,607
Speaker 4: so narrative and so evocative. I started listening after I

679
00:33:30,647 --> 00:33:32,407
Speaker 4: listened to Claire's but Are You Happy?

680
00:33:32,447 --> 00:33:32,847
Speaker 3: Interview?

681
00:33:32,887 --> 00:33:34,527
Speaker 4: And I went and saw miss Higgins a few months

682
00:33:34,527 --> 00:33:36,687
Speaker 4: ago and she played some new songs from the album,

683
00:33:37,207 --> 00:33:39,207
Speaker 4: and I really like them, and I never like songs

684
00:33:39,247 --> 00:33:40,127
Speaker 4: the first time I hear them.

685
00:33:40,167 --> 00:33:40,527
Speaker 1: It's true.

686
00:33:40,567 --> 00:33:42,367
Speaker 2: At the concert she was like, no, don't yeah, my

687
00:33:42,407 --> 00:33:44,407
Speaker 2: planning one I know, and I just kind of went, oh,

688
00:33:44,487 --> 00:33:45,367
Speaker 2: I actually like that.

689
00:33:45,567 --> 00:33:47,687
Speaker 1: I've been playing this album on repeat as well.

690
00:33:47,847 --> 00:33:49,847
Speaker 3: And then Miss I think she's an out louder.

691
00:33:50,007 --> 00:33:54,287
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm I started listening and I have not been

692
00:33:54,287 --> 00:33:56,687
Speaker 4: able to stop. And I'm now loving my commute to

693
00:33:56,727 --> 00:33:58,367
Speaker 4: and from work because I just I just put this

694
00:33:58,407 --> 00:34:01,007
Speaker 4: album one. I'm just a I feel like I'm fourteen again,

695
00:34:01,047 --> 00:34:03,567
Speaker 4: where you just listen to the same songs over and

696
00:34:03,567 --> 00:34:06,527
Speaker 4: over again. It is about her and you get this

697
00:34:06,567 --> 00:34:09,007
Speaker 4: from but are you Happy? But she and her husband

698
00:34:09,287 --> 00:34:13,047
Speaker 4: split's got two little kids, and it's about explaining that

699
00:34:13,167 --> 00:34:16,407
Speaker 4: and like relationships falling apart and that period of her

700
00:34:16,407 --> 00:34:18,567
Speaker 4: life and it's just brilliant.

701
00:34:18,647 --> 00:34:20,567
Speaker 3: Go and listen. It's yeah so good.

702
00:34:23,007 --> 00:34:26,607
Speaker 2: Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mom

703
00:34:26,607 --> 00:34:30,007
Speaker 2: and Me Are Out Loud just for momm and MIA subscribers.

704
00:34:30,527 --> 00:34:32,367
Speaker 2: Follow the link in the show notes to get your

705
00:34:32,447 --> 00:34:35,287
Speaker 2: daily dose ab out Loud and a big thank you

706
00:34:35,327 --> 00:34:49,087
Speaker 2: to all our current subscribers. It's best and worst. Again.

707
00:34:49,127 --> 00:34:51,247
Speaker 2: I don't think I need to explain this except that

708
00:34:51,727 --> 00:34:53,607
Speaker 2: as always our best and most can be silly, they

709
00:34:53,647 --> 00:34:55,967
Speaker 2: can be serious, they can be a mixture of those things.

710
00:34:56,047 --> 00:34:57,887
Speaker 3: Yep, yeah, why don't you go first.

711
00:34:58,287 --> 00:35:01,127
Speaker 1: My worst is that I'm not sure if I've got

712
00:35:01,247 --> 00:35:05,687
Speaker 1: Rosasha or if I've just fucked my skin barrier.

713
00:35:07,047 --> 00:35:07,927
Speaker 2: You've done.

714
00:35:09,247 --> 00:35:13,567
Speaker 1: I just feel so hot though it feels hot hot,

715
00:35:13,687 --> 00:35:16,207
Speaker 1: but hot is different. It doesn't just feel sore. It

716
00:35:16,247 --> 00:35:19,727
Speaker 1: actually feels hot from the inside. And I feel like

717
00:35:19,887 --> 00:35:24,447
Speaker 1: maybe I've got roseaisiha. Anyway, have you ever had it before? No,

718
00:35:24,527 --> 00:35:26,927
Speaker 1: but it's something that happens at this age. A lot

719
00:35:26,967 --> 00:35:29,687
Speaker 1: of friends who alwayce dated a guy who had it.

720
00:35:29,727 --> 00:35:32,447
Speaker 4: Actually twenty I was saying, I've always quite liked Roseasia

721
00:35:32,487 --> 00:35:33,887
Speaker 4: because I think it looks like a lovely pigle.

722
00:35:34,287 --> 00:35:36,767
Speaker 1: It feels awful, and I just feel like I'm always

723
00:35:36,887 --> 00:35:40,087
Speaker 1: red and hot. Anyway, that's my worst. My best is

724
00:35:40,127 --> 00:35:44,007
Speaker 1: that Luna's been having sleepovers and I've been doing Nana sleepovers,

725
00:35:44,087 --> 00:35:48,007
Speaker 1: and it's such a different experience because she's not sleeping

726
00:35:48,007 --> 00:35:51,047
Speaker 1: through the night properly, and Luca and Jesse have been

727
00:35:51,167 --> 00:35:53,807
Speaker 1: so kind of apologetic and like, oh, you sure, and

728
00:35:53,807 --> 00:35:55,207
Speaker 1: you've had a big week. Last week, I had a

729
00:35:55,207 --> 00:35:58,607
Speaker 1: really big week. We're traveling around for upfronts, and I said, oh,

730
00:35:58,607 --> 00:36:00,567
Speaker 1: why don't I just keep her on Friday night because

731
00:36:00,567 --> 00:36:03,807
Speaker 1: they went out and so jealous and they're like, oh no.

732
00:36:04,087 --> 00:36:05,927
Speaker 1: Jesse was like, oh no, You've had a really big week.

733
00:36:06,007 --> 00:36:08,407
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, it's fine. And Luke's like, oh, there,

734
00:36:08,407 --> 00:36:10,007
Speaker 1: she might wake up, and I'm like, oh, well, she

735
00:36:10,047 --> 00:36:12,767
Speaker 1: wakes up, and what was so interesting? I put it

736
00:36:12,847 --> 00:36:15,847
Speaker 1: down and she did wake up. And I've had a

737
00:36:15,847 --> 00:36:17,567
Speaker 1: lot of years of kids waking up in the middle

738
00:36:17,607 --> 00:36:19,647
Speaker 1: of the night, and it's a feeling. I was trying

739
00:36:19,687 --> 00:36:22,407
Speaker 1: to describe the feeling, and I only realized this because

740
00:36:22,407 --> 00:36:27,327
Speaker 1: it was completely absent. When it's your granddaughter. It's kind

741
00:36:27,367 --> 00:36:29,487
Speaker 1: of like an existential dread. I don't know, Jesse, you're

742
00:36:29,487 --> 00:36:30,647
Speaker 1: in the middle of it. How do you feel when

743
00:36:30,647 --> 00:36:31,847
Speaker 1: she wakes up in the middle of the night.

744
00:36:32,167 --> 00:36:36,007
Speaker 4: It's become quite psychologically distressing, because it's like, the worst

745
00:36:36,087 --> 00:36:38,007
Speaker 4: is when it's taken you a long time to fall

746
00:36:38,007 --> 00:36:39,927
Speaker 4: asleep and then you felt yourself just go to it

747
00:36:39,967 --> 00:36:42,167
Speaker 4: and you get woken up. But then you're on the

748
00:36:42,207 --> 00:36:44,247
Speaker 4: clock because you're going I know I have to be

749
00:36:44,327 --> 00:36:45,847
Speaker 4: up at this time. That time is never going to

750
00:36:45,967 --> 00:36:48,247
Speaker 4: change what time I have to be up. And if

751
00:36:48,247 --> 00:36:50,167
Speaker 4: this is the third or the fourth time that she's

752
00:36:50,207 --> 00:36:54,447
Speaker 4: been up overnight, then it's chipping into like my six

753
00:36:54,487 --> 00:36:56,127
Speaker 4: hours I was planning on getting or whatever.

754
00:36:56,207 --> 00:37:00,007
Speaker 1: And underlying that is the absolute panic that this will

755
00:37:00,047 --> 00:37:02,687
Speaker 1: never be fixed. Yeah, like I'm never going to sleep.

756
00:37:02,727 --> 00:37:04,567
Speaker 1: And also I think the randomness of it, like if

757
00:37:04,647 --> 00:37:07,327
Speaker 1: she woke up every night at two and four, then

758
00:37:07,327 --> 00:37:10,007
Speaker 1: you would deal with it. But maybe she'll up four times,

759
00:37:10,287 --> 00:37:12,767
Speaker 1: maybe she'll sleep through the night, which she has done occasionally.

760
00:37:13,007 --> 00:37:15,287
Speaker 1: But anyway, so she woke up, and what did you

761
00:37:15,327 --> 00:37:17,047
Speaker 1: do with her once she wake some care? I just

762
00:37:17,087 --> 00:37:19,967
Speaker 1: did just like I got her up and we went

763
00:37:20,047 --> 00:37:22,127
Speaker 1: and got a bottle, and I came back and I

764
00:37:22,167 --> 00:37:25,487
Speaker 1: cuddled her and she went doggy and it's a doggy.

765
00:37:25,567 --> 00:37:28,087
Speaker 1: And I can't even tell you how neutral I felt

766
00:37:28,127 --> 00:37:30,127
Speaker 1: about it. If anything, I felt happy because it was

767
00:37:30,167 --> 00:37:34,087
Speaker 1: like what time, Yeah, I get to say it's a doggie,

768
00:37:34,127 --> 00:37:35,607
Speaker 1: and then I put her back down. She doesn't need

769
00:37:35,607 --> 00:37:37,247
Speaker 1: a lot of settling. She just wants a bottle and

770
00:37:37,287 --> 00:37:39,847
Speaker 1: then she goes straight back down to bed. I'm easily

771
00:37:40,127 --> 00:37:43,927
Speaker 1: sleepable again. And if I'm tired in the morning, oh well,

772
00:37:44,047 --> 00:37:44,927
Speaker 1: I'm tired in the morning.

773
00:37:45,047 --> 00:37:48,887
Speaker 2: I love that you've got grunny sleepovers'.

774
00:37:48,167 --> 00:37:51,967
Speaker 1: And then then having rep in the morning is just

775
00:37:52,207 --> 00:37:55,247
Speaker 1: so fun. It's just like it's fun.

776
00:37:55,527 --> 00:37:56,407
Speaker 2: What time.

777
00:37:57,207 --> 00:37:58,887
Speaker 4: Oh look, I went and got her. I had a

778
00:37:58,927 --> 00:38:01,367
Speaker 4: morning to myself. Oh hell yeah, yeah, like I went

779
00:38:01,407 --> 00:38:01,887
Speaker 4: and got her Alley.

780
00:38:01,967 --> 00:38:04,127
Speaker 2: It's so cute. I'm just imagining you padding around the

781
00:38:04,167 --> 00:38:05,727
Speaker 2: house with baby Leanna on your head.

782
00:38:05,767 --> 00:38:07,887
Speaker 1: And of course Luca gives me eight million instructions, don't

783
00:38:07,927 --> 00:38:09,167
Speaker 1: sleep in the same room with her, don't put her in,

784
00:38:09,447 --> 00:38:11,367
Speaker 1: don't do this, don't and I'm just like, yep, yep, yep,

785
00:38:11,407 --> 00:38:11,927
Speaker 1: and then I do it.

786
00:38:12,087 --> 00:38:12,927
Speaker 3: I'll do my thing.

787
00:38:13,687 --> 00:38:18,087
Speaker 4: My worst is semi Luna related. She has developed as me. No,

788
00:38:18,127 --> 00:38:21,327
Speaker 4: it's a pathological fear of the bath. In fact, Holly,

789
00:38:21,647 --> 00:38:24,287
Speaker 4: this is I'm asking for parenting advice, and you're you're

790
00:38:24,327 --> 00:38:26,847
Speaker 4: closer to it than me. She will not go in

791
00:38:26,927 --> 00:38:30,167
Speaker 4: the bath, oh no. And she's also smear's yogurt in

792
00:38:30,247 --> 00:38:30,927
Speaker 4: her hair every night.

793
00:38:31,047 --> 00:38:32,527
Speaker 2: Yes, so she needs She made the.

794
00:38:32,887 --> 00:38:36,127
Speaker 1: Screams as if the water is like boiling. The first

795
00:38:36,127 --> 00:38:38,887
Speaker 1: time it happened to me, I'm like, bug at the water.

796
00:38:39,167 --> 00:38:41,007
Speaker 3: Yeah, have you ever had that with kids?

797
00:38:41,047 --> 00:38:41,207
Speaker 5: Yeah?

798
00:38:41,247 --> 00:38:44,247
Speaker 2: Actually, which one of them? Billy? He did not like

799
00:38:44,327 --> 00:38:46,407
Speaker 2: baths at all, and it was always showers. And the

800
00:38:46,567 --> 00:38:49,127
Speaker 2: annoying thing about showers, as I'm sure you're about to say,

801
00:38:49,687 --> 00:38:53,047
Speaker 2: is that a little child like that cannot shower themselves.

802
00:38:53,207 --> 00:38:54,727
Speaker 2: So then you're in the freaking shower.

803
00:38:54,847 --> 00:38:57,647
Speaker 4: Yeah, you've got this slippery ten kilos on you.

804
00:38:58,367 --> 00:38:59,327
Speaker 1: And what does she do?

805
00:38:59,487 --> 00:39:03,727
Speaker 3: And this is my worst nipple cripple every time. It's

806
00:39:03,767 --> 00:39:04,727
Speaker 3: a new party tree.

807
00:39:05,447 --> 00:39:09,207
Speaker 4: So we get in the shower and she nipple cripples,

808
00:39:09,287 --> 00:39:12,127
Speaker 4: and if I scream, she laughs, and it's.

809
00:39:11,927 --> 00:39:13,887
Speaker 1: A game, like we're doing now, yes.

810
00:39:13,887 --> 00:39:16,847
Speaker 4: So then she starts laughing. So now my life is

811
00:39:16,847 --> 00:39:20,127
Speaker 4: being nipple crippled and going don't react And I'm like, oh,

812
00:39:20,127 --> 00:39:24,207
Speaker 4: oh my god, it's so annoying.

813
00:39:24,407 --> 00:39:25,967
Speaker 3: And then Luca came in the other day and does

814
00:39:25,967 --> 00:39:27,767
Speaker 3: she nipple? This doesn't hurt as much.

815
00:39:28,087 --> 00:39:31,007
Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, exactly, I put my nipool on the

816
00:39:31,047 --> 00:39:33,487
Speaker 4: line for a while for you. And now they're just recovering.

817
00:39:33,927 --> 00:39:36,167
Speaker 4: And now Luca comes into my bathroom and he's like,

818
00:39:36,167 --> 00:39:38,127
Speaker 4: why is your bikini top there? And I'm like, I

819
00:39:38,127 --> 00:39:40,447
Speaker 4: have to wear a bikini in the shower now because

820
00:39:40,447 --> 00:39:41,247
Speaker 4: I'm being crippled.

821
00:39:42,127 --> 00:39:44,247
Speaker 3: Anyway, it'll pass, I'm sure.

822
00:39:44,527 --> 00:39:47,127
Speaker 4: It's holy it's been a month.

823
00:39:47,167 --> 00:39:48,807
Speaker 1: You know that thing with kids where you're like, this

824
00:39:48,847 --> 00:39:51,647
Speaker 1: is my life forever. She's going to be eleven and

825
00:39:51,767 --> 00:39:53,967
Speaker 1: nipple crippling me in the shower and I can't.

826
00:39:54,047 --> 00:39:57,207
Speaker 4: It's just so annoying my best And this actually sort

827
00:39:57,247 --> 00:39:58,967
Speaker 4: of relates to a worst I've had. I think I

828
00:39:59,087 --> 00:40:01,527
Speaker 4: told you two months ago that I tested positive for

829
00:40:01,567 --> 00:40:04,927
Speaker 4: this stomach infection called h pylori. Apparently a few people

830
00:40:05,007 --> 00:40:07,247
Speaker 4: have it, Like it's not not that rare, but test

831
00:40:07,287 --> 00:40:09,607
Speaker 4: a positive and I had to do this horrible course

832
00:40:09,647 --> 00:40:11,527
Speaker 4: of all of these things.

833
00:40:11,727 --> 00:40:13,727
Speaker 1: Did it involve a stuel sample, No, it didn't.

834
00:40:13,727 --> 00:40:14,647
Speaker 2: None of it was stool.

835
00:40:15,047 --> 00:40:17,967
Speaker 4: It's very high stomach ache. But anyway, took all these things,

836
00:40:18,127 --> 00:40:19,007
Speaker 4: really horrible treatment.

837
00:40:19,047 --> 00:40:20,007
Speaker 3: Didn't like it. Anyway.

838
00:40:20,007 --> 00:40:21,647
Speaker 4: I had to do a breath test to see that

839
00:40:21,687 --> 00:40:24,447
Speaker 4: it was negative. Still positive, Oh no, which I was like, well, what.

840
00:40:24,407 --> 00:40:26,767
Speaker 3: Do we do now? Am I resistant to antibiotics?

841
00:40:26,807 --> 00:40:27,207
Speaker 2: I don't know.

842
00:40:27,407 --> 00:40:29,367
Speaker 4: So I have all of these questions right, and this

843
00:40:29,487 --> 00:40:31,847
Speaker 4: is my best. On Saturday night, I go to hang

844
00:40:31,847 --> 00:40:34,647
Speaker 4: out with Lucas friends. Difference between my friends and Lucas friends.

845
00:40:34,767 --> 00:40:36,567
Speaker 4: So all these friends are doctors and the ones that

846
00:40:36,607 --> 00:40:40,247
Speaker 4: aren't doctors are lawyers handy, and they're really fucking handy.

847
00:40:40,607 --> 00:40:43,447
Speaker 4: And the thing about handy people after they've had a

848
00:40:43,447 --> 00:40:45,247
Speaker 4: few drinks, oh I love it is that it you

849
00:40:45,247 --> 00:40:47,887
Speaker 4: get free medical advice. Yes, and when they stop giving

850
00:40:47,887 --> 00:40:49,567
Speaker 4: you free medical advice, just go the next one.

851
00:40:49,687 --> 00:40:49,887
Speaker 1: Yeah.

852
00:40:49,967 --> 00:40:51,927
Speaker 4: So I had a few drinks, they had a few drinks.

853
00:40:51,967 --> 00:40:54,207
Speaker 4: I was like, this guy's had six beers, Like he's

854
00:40:54,247 --> 00:40:56,967
Speaker 4: going to be honest with me about how bad this is.

855
00:40:57,407 --> 00:40:59,687
Speaker 4: And I also then started getting.

856
00:40:59,487 --> 00:41:03,127
Speaker 2: Are we going to be irresponsible and share the advice? Well?

857
00:41:03,167 --> 00:41:05,727
Speaker 4: The thing is, you know how in emergency or like,

858
00:41:05,767 --> 00:41:07,007
Speaker 4: you go to a doctor and they've got a really

859
00:41:07,047 --> 00:41:09,607
Speaker 4: good game face and you're like, just pretend having a

860
00:41:09,687 --> 00:41:11,567
Speaker 4: beer at the pub and just be honest with me.

861
00:41:11,767 --> 00:41:13,967
Speaker 3: This is the thing is they I'm like, is it bad?

862
00:41:14,047 --> 00:41:16,487
Speaker 1: Yeah? They haven't learnt to be responsible with their.

863
00:41:17,287 --> 00:41:19,927
Speaker 4: No because they have no inhibitions. And I've also Claire's

864
00:41:19,967 --> 00:41:21,887
Speaker 4: been having with her baby. She had a few health questions.

865
00:41:21,887 --> 00:41:24,007
Speaker 4: So I was like, Claire, I've got this, and I

866
00:41:24,167 --> 00:41:26,767
Speaker 4: was going, would we go to this specialist.

867
00:41:26,327 --> 00:41:28,687
Speaker 1: Or imagining just with a whole lot of like med

868
00:41:28,767 --> 00:41:31,487
Speaker 1: students sitting around you, or maybe are they doctors now?

869
00:41:31,487 --> 00:41:34,327
Speaker 4: Are these doctors now? They're actual doctors and feel so old?

870
00:41:34,407 --> 00:41:37,407
Speaker 4: Lots of different specialties. One was a urologist. I was like,

871
00:41:37,447 --> 00:41:39,327
Speaker 4: I don't really have much use for it, but the

872
00:41:39,367 --> 00:41:41,127
Speaker 4: others I do, like, you can.

873
00:41:41,007 --> 00:41:45,407
Speaker 1: Go together end of the table to get chronic urinary infections.

874
00:41:44,887 --> 00:41:48,047
Speaker 4: I might have cleared up so don't need them. But

875
00:41:48,447 --> 00:41:50,487
Speaker 4: I got such good advice, and then I would go

876
00:41:50,527 --> 00:41:52,407
Speaker 4: the bathroom message Claire and go Okay, this is what

877
00:41:52,447 --> 00:41:53,607
Speaker 4: I'm going to do, and blah blah blah.

878
00:41:53,647 --> 00:41:57,287
Speaker 1: And they've just highly recommend if it all possible, finding

879
00:41:57,287 --> 00:42:00,327
Speaker 1: a friend who's a doctor, especially if you've got health anxiety,

880
00:42:00,967 --> 00:42:03,767
Speaker 1: because yeah helps me.

881
00:42:03,967 --> 00:42:06,447
Speaker 2: My worst of the week is wardrobe related, and I'm

882
00:42:06,487 --> 00:42:08,567
Speaker 2: looking for some advice from my good friend mere Freedman.

883
00:42:08,687 --> 00:42:10,807
Speaker 2: So she will be so horrified when I tell this next.

884
00:42:10,807 --> 00:42:12,127
Speaker 2: But you know how I told you to another hair

885
00:42:12,207 --> 00:42:14,807
Speaker 2: dryer and you were like, oh my god, Well I

886
00:42:14,847 --> 00:42:16,807
Speaker 2: also don't really have a wardrobe.

887
00:42:16,447 --> 00:42:21,127
Speaker 1: Right, So when we moved into our this is what

888
00:42:21,167 --> 00:42:22,887
Speaker 1: goes on in the country. I was going to say

889
00:42:22,927 --> 00:42:26,007
Speaker 1: when we met, you don't at me. I was just

890
00:42:26,087 --> 00:42:28,407
Speaker 1: joking and just trolling Holly. I know that people in

891
00:42:28,407 --> 00:42:30,247
Speaker 1: the country do have wardrobes and hair drives. It's just

892
00:42:30,287 --> 00:42:31,007
Speaker 1: Holly that doesn't.

893
00:42:31,887 --> 00:42:33,727
Speaker 2: When we moved into what I was going to call

894
00:42:33,727 --> 00:42:35,647
Speaker 2: our new house, and then I remember that this month

895
00:42:35,727 --> 00:42:39,247
Speaker 2: we've been there for two years. The bedroom that Brent

896
00:42:39,287 --> 00:42:42,087
Speaker 2: and I have got does not have a wardrobe, and

897
00:42:42,167 --> 00:42:45,087
Speaker 2: the kids got the bedrooms with the really big wardrobes

898
00:42:45,087 --> 00:42:47,887
Speaker 2: in them, like built ins, and I've never worked out

899
00:42:47,927 --> 00:42:49,487
Speaker 2: where we could put a built in an hour and

900
00:42:49,527 --> 00:42:53,847
Speaker 2: I haven't figured it. So I've got a little cupboard

901
00:42:53,927 --> 00:42:56,367
Speaker 2: in our room that has some of my clothes in it,

902
00:42:56,367 --> 00:42:58,167
Speaker 2: and then half my clothes room Billy's room, and half

903
00:42:58,167 --> 00:43:00,887
Speaker 2: my clothes room Matilda's, and then most heart clothes are

904
00:43:00,927 --> 00:43:02,407
Speaker 2: in a pile on the floor. And then you know what,

905
00:43:02,607 --> 00:43:05,927
Speaker 2: I'm so stressed, I know exactly anyway, I'm having a

906
00:43:05,967 --> 00:43:09,007
Speaker 2: style stuck rut. As discussed in the Emmys episode on Tuesday,

907
00:43:09,007 --> 00:43:11,047
Speaker 2: any Body, if you're wondering what we're talking about. Pop

908
00:43:11,087 --> 00:43:11,367
Speaker 2: back there.

909
00:43:11,407 --> 00:43:13,527
Speaker 1: I don't think your outfits have been banging. I don't

910
00:43:13,527 --> 00:43:17,727
Speaker 1: think you're in a rack at all style.

911
00:43:16,687 --> 00:43:19,927
Speaker 2: Of jeans for three years now, but hey, I like them.

912
00:43:20,207 --> 00:43:22,287
Speaker 2: My other wardrobe challenge, of course, is that very often

913
00:43:22,287 --> 00:43:23,647
Speaker 2: I come up to Sydney for a few days in

914
00:43:23,647 --> 00:43:25,567
Speaker 2: a row, so I'm like packing, like these are the

915
00:43:25,567 --> 00:43:28,647
Speaker 2: things I'm writing. Anyway, this weekend, I've got a bit

916
00:43:28,687 --> 00:43:30,887
Speaker 2: of time. Life's busy, and I don't usually but I've

917
00:43:30,887 --> 00:43:32,687
Speaker 2: got a bit of time, and I'm going to do

918
00:43:32,887 --> 00:43:36,847
Speaker 2: a big wardrobe clear out, chuck out, consolidation where you

919
00:43:36,887 --> 00:43:39,727
Speaker 2: can put it. We still haven't solved that problem.

920
00:43:39,367 --> 00:43:42,807
Speaker 1: But the racks I've got, I'm going to sort you out.

921
00:43:42,847 --> 00:43:44,087
Speaker 1: I've got so many things.

922
00:43:44,167 --> 00:43:46,967
Speaker 2: Here's my question though, about what the system I should use,

923
00:43:46,967 --> 00:43:48,767
Speaker 2: because I'm going to go through the wardrobe and bility

924
00:43:48,927 --> 00:43:52,087
Speaker 2: that has like lots of clothes of mine from various eras.

925
00:43:52,087 --> 00:43:54,447
Speaker 2: We need to consolidate so it's easier for me to

926
00:43:54,447 --> 00:43:56,847
Speaker 2: pick what I'm going to wear and stuff. What's my system?

927
00:43:57,047 --> 00:43:57,247
Speaker 1: Is it?

928
00:43:57,407 --> 00:43:58,847
Speaker 2: Chuck, keep, donate?

929
00:43:58,927 --> 00:43:59,367
Speaker 6: What is it?

930
00:43:59,447 --> 00:44:00,367
Speaker 1: Well, that's the first thing.

931
00:44:00,447 --> 00:44:02,647
Speaker 2: How do I decide what to chuck and what not

932
00:44:02,767 --> 00:44:04,567
Speaker 2: to chuck. I'm nostalgic.

933
00:44:04,727 --> 00:44:06,887
Speaker 1: I think I think there are some things that you

934
00:44:07,047 --> 00:44:11,807
Speaker 1: just keep for sentimental reasons. So anything that is like,

935
00:44:12,207 --> 00:44:15,647
Speaker 1: oh that's what I wore when blah blah, wedding dress,

936
00:44:15,967 --> 00:44:19,807
Speaker 1: like her wedding dress, wedding dress, like your christening dress,

937
00:44:21,127 --> 00:44:26,927
Speaker 1: but you wore when you're christened. Your bumm, it's frock.

938
00:44:27,047 --> 00:44:29,047
Speaker 2: We're very godless over here, you really are.

939
00:44:29,807 --> 00:44:32,367
Speaker 1: You're pagan knock down. I don't know what do your

940
00:44:32,407 --> 00:44:36,607
Speaker 1: people do? Want to dance around the fire. So what

941
00:44:36,647 --> 00:44:39,327
Speaker 1: I want you to do is use all those different places,

942
00:44:39,967 --> 00:44:41,767
Speaker 1: and in one of them you're going to put all

943
00:44:41,807 --> 00:44:45,607
Speaker 1: the things that are just not right now. They might

944
00:44:45,647 --> 00:44:48,447
Speaker 1: not fit you. My view is, if something's too small,

945
00:44:48,967 --> 00:44:51,007
Speaker 1: it's got to go. It's got to go. If something's

946
00:44:51,007 --> 00:44:53,807
Speaker 1: too small, you don't need that pressure. You just don't

947
00:44:53,807 --> 00:44:56,447
Speaker 1: need that pressure. Give it another life, up cycle it,

948
00:44:56,487 --> 00:44:58,607
Speaker 1: give it to someone else. But then you will have

949
00:44:58,647 --> 00:45:01,567
Speaker 1: things that are out of season that just aren't right

950
00:45:01,767 --> 00:45:04,727
Speaker 1: right now. So like, for example, leopard print was out

951
00:45:04,767 --> 00:45:07,567
Speaker 1: for years, but you know it's going to come back again.

952
00:45:08,127 --> 00:45:11,287
Speaker 1: Put that away. You know sequence they were out for

953
00:45:11,327 --> 00:45:13,687
Speaker 1: a while. Put those away. Things that you love but

954
00:45:13,727 --> 00:45:17,367
Speaker 1: that just don't feel current. Just put them away as

955
00:45:17,447 --> 00:45:19,567
Speaker 1: long as they fit you. And things that are out

956
00:45:19,567 --> 00:45:21,927
Speaker 1: of season in terms of it's cold, you know, put

957
00:45:21,927 --> 00:45:24,447
Speaker 1: away your warm stuff. Then we're going to get you

958
00:45:24,487 --> 00:45:27,007
Speaker 1: some things. You know that idea of the stuff that

959
00:45:27,047 --> 00:45:30,527
Speaker 1: you wear every day, the rotation, the ten percent of

960
00:45:30,527 --> 00:45:32,567
Speaker 1: your wardrobe that you wear ninety percent of the time.

961
00:45:32,687 --> 00:45:34,567
Speaker 1: We're going to get that in your bedroom, right and

962
00:45:34,607 --> 00:45:35,927
Speaker 1: we're going to get it off the floor. We're going

963
00:45:35,967 --> 00:45:37,847
Speaker 1: to get a hanging. But you've got to be able

964
00:45:37,887 --> 00:45:40,327
Speaker 1: to see it, because my view with clothes is if

965
00:45:40,367 --> 00:45:42,527
Speaker 1: I can't see it, I won't wear it because it

966
00:45:42,527 --> 00:45:46,447
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. And then what I want you to start

967
00:45:46,487 --> 00:45:49,767
Speaker 1: doing is taking a mirror selfie of yourself every day.

968
00:45:49,847 --> 00:45:51,847
Speaker 1: Don't have to post it, although the outladder would quite

969
00:45:51,847 --> 00:45:55,007
Speaker 1: love that. And what that does is that you can

970
00:45:55,047 --> 00:45:59,367
Speaker 1: then look back and see outfits that you felt good in,

971
00:46:00,247 --> 00:46:02,567
Speaker 1: outfits that you did in things that you know, because

972
00:46:02,607 --> 00:46:04,567
Speaker 1: the worst thing with when you don't know what to

973
00:46:04,607 --> 00:46:06,247
Speaker 1: wear is, oh, I just don't know what to wear

974
00:46:06,647 --> 00:46:08,607
Speaker 1: and it just feels like you've got to reinvent it

975
00:46:08,607 --> 00:46:11,407
Speaker 1: because you forget right. But if you've then got a

976
00:46:11,487 --> 00:46:13,727
Speaker 1: record of the outfits and you can also start to

977
00:46:13,727 --> 00:46:15,247
Speaker 1: look at them and see what they have in common

978
00:46:15,847 --> 00:46:17,727
Speaker 1: and on the days that feel right and the days

979
00:46:17,727 --> 00:46:21,367
Speaker 1: that don't feel right, but be ruthless.

980
00:46:21,447 --> 00:46:23,407
Speaker 3: Do you do like a color Yeah, I.

981
00:46:23,327 --> 00:46:28,127
Speaker 1: Do color code, but more I do buy pants, skirts, tops,

982
00:46:28,407 --> 00:46:31,007
Speaker 1: jackets like I divide them by king yep.

983
00:46:31,247 --> 00:46:33,167
Speaker 2: Okay, we're going to sort it out this weekend. I'm

984
00:46:33,207 --> 00:46:36,447
Speaker 2: going to big sprinkling the wardrobe. I'm going to also

985
00:46:36,527 --> 00:46:38,607
Speaker 2: sort out the kids clouds. We're going to create space,

986
00:46:38,967 --> 00:46:41,167
Speaker 2: and you're right, everything I don't where all the time

987
00:46:41,207 --> 00:46:42,687
Speaker 2: can stay in there. And then we just have the

988
00:46:42,687 --> 00:46:43,407
Speaker 2: wardrobe issues.

989
00:46:43,527 --> 00:46:45,807
Speaker 1: It's too Yeah, and I'll find you that I've got

990
00:46:45,807 --> 00:46:49,207
Speaker 1: a million things that I do. You know, is great problem.

991
00:46:49,647 --> 00:46:53,087
Speaker 1: I'll tell you later. I'll send you some links.

992
00:46:53,127 --> 00:46:55,927
Speaker 2: Okay. My best of the week was a little parenting

993
00:46:55,967 --> 00:46:58,647
Speaker 2: epiphany that I had on Saturday. So at the weekend

994
00:46:58,807 --> 00:47:02,847
Speaker 2: I took Matilda, my daughter, to Canbra. She plays AFL

995
00:47:02,967 --> 00:47:05,367
Speaker 2: and she the last game of this whole season for

996
00:47:05,407 --> 00:47:08,007
Speaker 2: her was in camera because she's like part of this

997
00:47:08,087 --> 00:47:10,007
Speaker 2: academy team and it was like will she get picked?

998
00:47:10,047 --> 00:47:12,087
Speaker 2: When she get picked? That kind of stuff. It was

999
00:47:12,167 --> 00:47:13,807
Speaker 2: very early on Sunday morning, so we decided to make

1000
00:47:13,847 --> 00:47:15,567
Speaker 2: a weekend with it. She and I went down to

1001
00:47:15,607 --> 00:47:18,127
Speaker 2: Canberra on Saturday afternoon and we had the most well,

1002
00:47:18,167 --> 00:47:20,687
Speaker 2: slightly irritating but also delightful day, like doing a little

1003
00:47:20,687 --> 00:47:22,767
Speaker 2: bit of light shopping. I didn't have to stand outside

1004
00:47:22,767 --> 00:47:25,607
Speaker 2: Glassons change room for a while, which was quite stressful.

1005
00:47:26,007 --> 00:47:28,727
Speaker 2: I am not good their life choices. I am not

1006
00:47:28,767 --> 00:47:30,887
Speaker 2: good at being you know, the bloke who waits outside

1007
00:47:30,887 --> 00:47:31,447
Speaker 2: the change.

1008
00:47:31,327 --> 00:47:33,527
Speaker 3: Room never had anything really bored.

1009
00:47:34,087 --> 00:47:37,327
Speaker 2: And then she orders me around. The girl is a

1010
00:47:37,367 --> 00:47:39,607
Speaker 2: special type of hair. Oh, She's just like, get me

1011
00:47:39,687 --> 00:47:41,447
Speaker 2: this in another size, get me that, not that one.

1012
00:47:41,487 --> 00:47:43,207
Speaker 2: And I'm like this pair of Danndom shots and she's

1013
00:47:43,247 --> 00:47:44,567
Speaker 2: like no, and I'm like, what's wrong with them? And

1014
00:47:44,607 --> 00:47:46,767
Speaker 2: she's like, you know, it's just goes on and on

1015
00:47:46,927 --> 00:47:50,367
Speaker 2: and the music's so loud because but anyway, we said

1016
00:47:50,367 --> 00:47:51,927
Speaker 2: in the hotel and we went out for dinner that

1017
00:47:51,967 --> 00:47:55,767
Speaker 2: evening and we had the nicest dinner together, right like

1018
00:47:56,207 --> 00:47:59,727
Speaker 2: she's fourteen fifteen soon And we sat there and we

1019
00:47:59,887 --> 00:48:01,567
Speaker 2: ate food that she wouldn't normally eat, and we had

1020
00:48:01,607 --> 00:48:05,567
Speaker 2: a conversation like about life and her friends and stuff.

1021
00:48:06,167 --> 00:48:08,007
Speaker 2: I sat there because it isn't always like that. Like

1022
00:48:08,047 --> 00:48:10,247
Speaker 2: a lot of teenage me and knows very well, a

1023
00:48:10,247 --> 00:48:13,087
Speaker 2: lot of teenage time is slam doors, mumm, you're an idiot.

1024
00:48:13,447 --> 00:48:16,127
Speaker 2: You don't understand, can I can? I can? I will

1025
00:48:16,167 --> 00:48:18,607
Speaker 2: you will you will you. But it was one of

1026
00:48:18,607 --> 00:48:21,007
Speaker 2: those little moments that you kind of want to snapshot

1027
00:48:21,007 --> 00:48:23,567
Speaker 2: in your head because when I was where you are,

1028
00:48:23,607 --> 00:48:26,207
Speaker 2: and I mean, I know you're enjoying lunar enormously, but

1029
00:48:26,247 --> 00:48:28,567
Speaker 2: when I was in the trenches of little kiddom, the

1030
00:48:28,687 --> 00:48:31,447
Speaker 2: idea that one day I would sit across the table

1031
00:48:31,687 --> 00:48:35,167
Speaker 2: with my beautiful daughter, that we would have like an

1032
00:48:35,167 --> 00:48:39,447
Speaker 2: almost grown up conversation, and we'd just like it seemed impossible,

1033
00:48:39,487 --> 00:48:41,967
Speaker 2: like it was another planet. And it makes me there's

1034
00:48:41,967 --> 00:48:44,447
Speaker 2: a lot to get nostalgic and sad about about your

1035
00:48:44,487 --> 00:48:46,927
Speaker 2: kids growing up, as we've talked about a lot, but

1036
00:48:47,047 --> 00:48:50,567
Speaker 2: there are also some really lovely things about it watching

1037
00:48:50,607 --> 00:48:53,607
Speaker 2: them be. You know, we spent this time together and

1038
00:48:53,647 --> 00:48:55,247
Speaker 2: it was like mother and daughter because every five minutes

1039
00:48:55,287 --> 00:48:58,287
Speaker 2: she was asking me to pay for something, but it

1040
00:48:58,367 --> 00:49:01,007
Speaker 2: was also just this lovely appreciation of each other. And

1041
00:49:01,047 --> 00:49:03,567
Speaker 2: I loved it, and we had a really great weekend

1042
00:49:03,647 --> 00:49:05,887
Speaker 2: and that was my Oh, that's so nice.

1043
00:49:06,727 --> 00:49:09,647
Speaker 4: It's been a big week in the US presidential race.

1044
00:49:09,727 --> 00:49:12,247
Speaker 4: And if you can't get enough of US politics, then

1045
00:49:12,487 --> 00:49:16,167
Speaker 4: we are doing subscriber episodes with Amelia Lester, who is

1046
00:49:16,407 --> 00:49:17,967
Speaker 4: a genius expert.

1047
00:49:18,127 --> 00:49:20,447
Speaker 1: You got to play with the media this week, got.

1048
00:49:20,167 --> 00:49:23,607
Speaker 4: To sit there because you had an appointment, and we

1049
00:49:23,967 --> 00:49:29,807
Speaker 4: talked about the debate, the second attempted assassination, and also

1050
00:49:30,207 --> 00:49:32,807
Speaker 4: Trump's alleged girlfriend. We're being cheeky when we say that,

1051
00:49:32,927 --> 00:49:36,367
Speaker 4: but it's an interesting story. Listen via the link in

1052
00:49:36,447 --> 00:49:38,607
Speaker 4: our show notes and make sure you're signed up to

1053
00:49:38,607 --> 00:49:41,087
Speaker 4: the Mummeer out Loud newsletter because this week we actually

1054
00:49:41,127 --> 00:49:45,287
Speaker 4: have an exclusive bonus chat with Amelia Lester all about

1055
00:49:45,327 --> 00:49:46,527
Speaker 4: Taylor Swift's endorsement.

1056
00:49:48,207 --> 00:49:51,607
Speaker 1: I wasn't already subscribed to this newsletter for free, I

1057
00:49:51,647 --> 00:49:54,407
Speaker 1: would be doing it to just listen to this shows the.

1058
00:49:56,207 --> 00:49:59,087
Speaker 4: Really really good question about it trum Taylor. Make sure

1059
00:49:59,087 --> 00:50:01,207
Speaker 4: you've signed up. There is a link in our show notes.

1060
00:50:01,607 --> 00:50:03,887
Speaker 2: Thank you out louders for being with us all week.

1061
00:50:03,967 --> 00:50:06,287
Speaker 2: That is all we have time for this week, of course,

1062
00:50:06,327 --> 00:50:08,287
Speaker 2: but we will see you back here on Monday. And

1063
00:50:08,327 --> 00:50:12,047
Speaker 2: a massive thank you to our team Executive producer Ruth Devine,

1064
00:50:12,207 --> 00:50:15,967
Speaker 2: Senior producer Emiline Gazillis, our audio producers Leah Porges, and

1065
00:50:16,007 --> 00:50:19,127
Speaker 2: our social media producer is Isabelle Dolphin. And will see

1066
00:50:19,127 --> 00:50:20,727
Speaker 2: you on Monday. Bye bye.

1067
00:50:21,847 --> 00:50:25,007
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Mum and Mia subscribers listening. If

1068
00:50:25,047 --> 00:50:27,647
Speaker 1: you love the show and want to support us as well,

1069
00:50:27,807 --> 00:50:30,247
Speaker 1: subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way

1070
00:50:30,247 --> 00:50:32,727
Speaker 1: to do so. There is a link in the episode description.