WEBVTT - Emergency Meeting: The Blake Lively Smear Campaign Unpacked 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:26.247 that this podcast is recorded on Hello out louders. It's Monday, 0:00:26.327 --> 0:00:29.367 the twenty third of December, and I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm 0:00:29.407 --> 0:00:30.767 me of Friedman, and. 0:00:30.687 --> 0:00:33.407 I'm Jesse Stevens. And we were not meant to be 0:00:33.607 --> 0:00:35.887 here right now, but alas. 0:00:35.967 --> 0:00:40.607 We are here because we can bury anyone inside a 0:00:40.647 --> 0:00:44.447 Hollywood smear machine. That is the New York Times headline. 0:00:44.527 --> 0:00:47.367 That meant we definitely had to be here right now, 0:00:47.447 --> 0:00:51.887 Jesse Stevens, because you might remember, you definitely remember bits 0:00:51.887 --> 0:00:53.447 of it. It was one of the stories of the 0:00:53.527 --> 0:00:56.607 year that one of the most watched movies of twenty 0:00:56.647 --> 0:01:00.487 twenty four, It Ends with Us, came alongside the mass 0:01:00.567 --> 0:01:05.127 cancelation of its star, Blake Lively. The prestore that accompanied 0:01:05.127 --> 0:01:07.527 that movie was notable for the fact that the star 0:01:07.727 --> 0:01:12.407 and producer Lively and its other star and director, Justin Baldoni, 0:01:12.527 --> 0:01:16.007 went to great and unusual lengths not to be seen together, 0:01:16.367 --> 0:01:19.127 to be interviewed together, to show any of the usual 0:01:19.167 --> 0:01:23.607 camaraderie required of co creators of a big film. Lively 0:01:23.887 --> 0:01:26.807 the rumors went wanted to promote the movie as if 0:01:26.807 --> 0:01:32.207 it were a flowery rom com. Baldoni supposedly loudly insisted 0:01:32.207 --> 0:01:35.367 that he wanted its serious subject matter coercive control and 0:01:35.407 --> 0:01:39.847 domestic violence, to be front and center. Lively was criticized 0:01:39.887 --> 0:01:43.127 for trivializing a serious topic, for being a tone death 0:01:43.247 --> 0:01:48.527 self promoter, for launching a haircare brand. The backlash was huge, 0:01:48.567 --> 0:01:51.967 and then yesterday The New York Times reported that Lively 0:01:52.087 --> 0:01:55.927 is taking legal action against Baldoni, accusing him of sexual 0:01:55.927 --> 0:01:59.687 harassment and an effort to destroy her reputation. It's a 0:01:59.767 --> 0:02:04.127 story that has massive implications for I'd say almost every 0:02:04.167 --> 0:02:07.607 celebrity story you see on the internet. Mia, what did 0:02:07.647 --> 0:02:10.487 the story the one with the we can bury anyone 0:02:10.567 --> 0:02:11.887 headline allege? 0:02:12.247 --> 0:02:14.367 I think Jesse's going to take us through some of 0:02:14.407 --> 0:02:19.447 the allegations in more detail, but overall, it alleged serious 0:02:19.527 --> 0:02:22.447 misconduct on the set. Now, what's important to understand is 0:02:22.447 --> 0:02:26.367 that Justin was not only the director and the producer 0:02:26.527 --> 0:02:29.367 and the co star. He also was a co owner 0:02:29.407 --> 0:02:32.447 of the studio that was making the film. So even 0:02:32.487 --> 0:02:36.687 though Blake Lively was more famous, he had huge power 0:02:36.767 --> 0:02:39.967 in the context of making this film, so it alleged 0:02:40.207 --> 0:02:44.447 sexual harassment, and then also it detailed that when Blake 0:02:44.527 --> 0:02:47.887 Lively complained about it and insisted on a meeting with 0:02:47.967 --> 0:02:51.447 all the stakeholders before she returned to filming in January 0:02:51.447 --> 0:02:55.007 this year, after the writers' strike, Justin Baldoni hired a 0:02:55.007 --> 0:02:57.687 crisis pr to smear her, which we're also going to 0:02:57.687 --> 0:03:00.007 get into in a moment, but let's just rewind to 0:03:00.047 --> 0:03:02.487 August to remind ourselves what this movie was about and 0:03:02.487 --> 0:03:04.927 why there was so much controversy when it was released, 0:03:05.007 --> 0:03:08.007 because it was only released a few months ago, and 0:03:08.367 --> 0:03:10.527 it's about to come on streaming, or I think it's 0:03:10.607 --> 0:03:13.487 just come on to streaming. The movie is based on 0:03:13.607 --> 0:03:16.847 the Colleen Hoover book that was also called It Ends 0:03:16.847 --> 0:03:18.727 with Us, and it tells the story of a florist 0:03:18.847 --> 0:03:23.407 called Lily Bloom played by Lively, who navigates the romance 0:03:23.527 --> 0:03:28.887 with a neurosurgeon called Ryle Kincaid that becomes abusive. 0:03:29.127 --> 0:03:30.687 That's the essence of the film. 0:03:30.727 --> 0:03:32.887 The three of us went to see it, it was 0:03:32.927 --> 0:03:37.007 already completely swamped in controversy. I really liked the film. 0:03:37.087 --> 0:03:40.367 I thought Blake Lively was fantastic. Yeah, I thought it 0:03:40.407 --> 0:03:41.727 was not the best film in the world, but I 0:03:41.727 --> 0:03:45.167 thought it was really good. And I was surprised at 0:03:45.207 --> 0:03:48.847 the controversy that had completely engulfed this film. It seemed 0:03:48.887 --> 0:03:52.927 really out of whack. So what was the controversy. Well, 0:03:52.967 --> 0:03:55.367 there's a few different elements to it, but it was 0:03:55.407 --> 0:04:01.847 basically all about Blake Lively being inappropriate during the promotional 0:04:02.087 --> 0:04:04.087 part of the tour, So it wasn't about the actual 0:04:04.127 --> 0:04:07.167 movie itself, it was about how it was promoted. There 0:04:07.207 --> 0:04:11.087 was an interview where she encouraged fans to grab your friends, 0:04:11.127 --> 0:04:13.647 wear your florals, and head out to see it, which 0:04:13.727 --> 0:04:17.087 kind of suggested that it was a lighthearted viewing experience. 0:04:17.487 --> 0:04:19.807 There was no trigger warning at the beginning of it, 0:04:19.887 --> 0:04:22.127 so there was a whole big debate about trigger warnings, 0:04:22.847 --> 0:04:26.847 and the whole marketing campaign was criticized as tone deaf 0:04:27.367 --> 0:04:30.447 given how serious the themes were in the movie about 0:04:30.487 --> 0:04:34.287 domestic abuse, and that all landed on Blake Lively. Now, 0:04:34.367 --> 0:04:36.167 there were some things she did during the tour that 0:04:36.367 --> 0:04:39.527 particularly made her a target of criticism, like she was 0:04:39.607 --> 0:04:42.287 launching a hair care line at the time. She also 0:04:42.407 --> 0:04:46.607 promoted her beverage brand, which was called Betty booze, and 0:04:47.167 --> 0:04:50.407 many people said that alcohol is often connected with domestic violence, 0:04:50.407 --> 0:04:54.247 so that's insensitive, and so it was seen that she 0:04:54.407 --> 0:04:57.727 was just not taking it seriously, which led to this 0:04:57.847 --> 0:05:02.607 big backlash against her. And you'd have to say one 0:05:02.607 --> 0:05:07.007 of the worst cancelations that we've seen in a long 0:05:07.047 --> 0:05:11.407 time for reasons that it seemed really spurious. 0:05:11.887 --> 0:05:15.487 Yes, I agree, because back at the time we talked 0:05:15.487 --> 0:05:18.367 about it, and it felt as though the facts we 0:05:18.407 --> 0:05:21.567 had in front of us were not proportionate to the 0:05:21.847 --> 0:05:27.007 avalanche of hate that Blake Lively was getting, particularly on TikTok. 0:05:27.087 --> 0:05:30.127 Maybe that's because that's where I leave most of the time, 0:05:30.767 --> 0:05:33.647 and we were getting these leaks. So the leaks that 0:05:33.687 --> 0:05:36.607 we were getting were that there was something that said 0:05:36.687 --> 0:05:40.367 justin Baldoni lingered too long on a kiss, He asked 0:05:40.407 --> 0:05:44.087 how much she weighed because he had a former back 0:05:44.127 --> 0:05:46.607 injury and was worried about picking her up like weird, 0:05:47.127 --> 0:05:47.887 weird stuff. 0:05:48.247 --> 0:05:50.127 None of those took hold, so there were a few 0:05:50.207 --> 0:05:53.447 rumors of was it uncomfortable on set. The other thing 0:05:53.487 --> 0:05:58.007 that really came out was Blake had taken over and 0:05:58.367 --> 0:06:02.167 she'd insisted on doing her own edit that somehow Ryan 0:06:02.207 --> 0:06:04.567 Reynolds got involved and was rewriting a few scenes. 0:06:04.607 --> 0:06:07.207 So the image that came across through the press tour 0:06:07.727 --> 0:06:09.087 was that she was. 0:06:09.647 --> 0:06:14.407 Not taking it seriously, was dominating an a diva on set, 0:06:15.007 --> 0:06:18.287 and that he was a victim of all this. Because, 0:06:18.407 --> 0:06:20.607 in case you're not familiar with Justin Baldoni, his most 0:06:20.607 --> 0:06:23.407 famous role as an actor was in Jane the Virgin, 0:06:24.087 --> 0:06:27.767 and he's really fushioned himself over the last few years 0:06:27.807 --> 0:06:31.607 as a feminist and as he has a podcast called 0:06:31.687 --> 0:06:34.527 Man Enough where he questions toxic masculinity. 0:06:35.007 --> 0:06:37.687 He had a viral ted talk about it like he's 0:06:37.807 --> 0:06:39.247 very much he's that. 0:06:39.207 --> 0:06:42.207 Guy, a champion of women. That was his vibe. 0:06:42.367 --> 0:06:44.967 And among all these rumors, what was very clear the 0:06:45.007 --> 0:06:49.367 whole like smoke fire thing, is that they had definitely 0:06:49.447 --> 0:06:52.407 fallen out, Like there was no question about that. You know, 0:06:52.487 --> 0:06:55.527 the other cast members had stopped following him on Instagram 0:06:55.527 --> 0:06:57.967 and seemed to very much be siding with her. As 0:06:58.007 --> 0:07:00.047 I said at the beginning, they weren't photographed together, they 0:07:00.047 --> 0:07:02.567 didn't do any promo. It was kind of like jeweling 0:07:03.047 --> 0:07:04.887 press tours, which is very unusual. 0:07:05.007 --> 0:07:08.927 And Baldoni at the time he spoke to Today and 0:07:09.007 --> 0:07:12.807 of addressing some of the creative differences, and he said, 0:07:13.287 --> 0:07:16.207 I'm a best idea wins person and I always have 0:07:16.327 --> 0:07:18.447 been to a fault, sometimes to a point where at 0:07:18.487 --> 0:07:20.327 times I think I've had people wonder if I know 0:07:20.407 --> 0:07:22.367 what I'm doing or if I have a point of view, 0:07:22.567 --> 0:07:25.607 because I'm so willing to have my vision changed. I 0:07:25.607 --> 0:07:29.327 don't believe that inspiration or creativity comes through one person. 0:07:29.727 --> 0:07:31.887 On the night of the premiere, he was saying, this 0:07:31.967 --> 0:07:34.887 isn't about me, It's a night for Blake, It's for Colleen. 0:07:35.607 --> 0:07:38.727 I'm so grateful we're here, and again it was clear 0:07:38.767 --> 0:07:41.527 that neither of those women were speaking to him. 0:07:42.127 --> 0:07:44.527 What happened on the weekend is that Blake Lively has 0:07:44.527 --> 0:07:47.207 filed a legal complaint that presents her side of the 0:07:47.247 --> 0:07:50.087 story to all of the things that we were just discussing, 0:07:50.127 --> 0:07:52.127 and Jesse's going to tell us about them in a minute, 0:07:52.207 --> 0:07:53.327 but first short break. 0:08:01.407 --> 0:08:06.327 So the allegations of misconduct on set are pretty damning 0:08:06.487 --> 0:08:11.527 in terms of physical boundaries and relations. There are allegations 0:08:11.607 --> 0:08:15.847 that he improvised unwanted kissing scenes. He would enter this 0:08:15.967 --> 0:08:19.127 is Baldoni would enter her makeup trailer uninvited, while she 0:08:19.167 --> 0:08:23.367 was undressed, including while she was breastfeeding. In terms of 0:08:23.407 --> 0:08:28.367 sexual harassment, Baldoni and Jamie Heath, he was a producer 0:08:28.367 --> 0:08:32.647 and co owner. There are allegations that they would describe 0:08:32.687 --> 0:08:36.527 their genitalia on set. Baldoni would frequently refer to his 0:08:36.687 --> 0:08:40.927 past porn addiction and describe previous sexual encounters where he 0:08:41.047 --> 0:08:45.447 said he may or may not have received consent. Now 0:08:45.487 --> 0:08:48.767 we know that Lively made a series of requests. Part 0:08:48.767 --> 0:08:52.247 way through filming. They actually had this all hands meeting 0:08:52.327 --> 0:08:56.327 which included her husband, Ryan Reynolds, and it was held 0:08:56.367 --> 0:09:01.087 to address Baldoni and Jamie Heath's alleged inappropriate conduct. 0:09:01.287 --> 0:09:04.487 So, yeah, this was interesting because this was like she 0:09:04.607 --> 0:09:08.247 had Ryan there as her support person, and it was 0:09:08.287 --> 0:09:10.447 after the Writer's strike, so they'd only been filming for 0:09:10.487 --> 0:09:12.807 six weeks. Then that was the writer's strike and she 0:09:12.887 --> 0:09:14.887 had this meeting and she said, I'm not coming back 0:09:15.607 --> 0:09:18.767 unless we have this meeting. She included Sony who's the distributor, 0:09:18.767 --> 0:09:20.687 and all these different people, So there are a lot 0:09:20.727 --> 0:09:22.767 of people at that meeting, which means that there will 0:09:22.807 --> 0:09:25.047 be a lot of you know, and none of this 0:09:25.527 --> 0:09:26.967 was disputed at the time. 0:09:27.207 --> 0:09:30.847 So there was a list of thirty things. They're quite 0:09:30.887 --> 0:09:34.607 revealing some of Lively's requests, and these were, as you say, 0:09:34.647 --> 0:09:37.887 they were confirmed because it's a document. Her requests were 0:09:37.927 --> 0:09:41.647 that Baldoni would stop asking her about religious beliefs, stop 0:09:41.727 --> 0:09:44.727 asking her trainer about her weight she was four months 0:09:44.807 --> 0:09:48.127 postpartum with her fourth baby, and stop claiming to be 0:09:48.207 --> 0:09:52.367 able to speak to her dead father. There are allegations 0:09:52.367 --> 0:09:56.047 that Baldoni improvised while on set, so in one scene, 0:09:56.207 --> 0:09:58.767 they weren't miked up. It was just to be filmed. 0:09:58.767 --> 0:10:01.727 It was just a visual scene, and Lively claims that 0:10:01.807 --> 0:10:05.727 as himself, Baldoni leaned in and slowly dragged his lips 0:10:05.767 --> 0:10:08.487 from her ear to her neck and said, it smells 0:10:08.527 --> 0:10:12.767 so good. It says that when Lively objected to his actions, 0:10:13.167 --> 0:10:18.687 Baldoni retorted, I'm not even attracted to you. Baldoni added, 0:10:18.767 --> 0:10:22.887 this is an allegation improvised sexual content and nude scenes, 0:10:23.047 --> 0:10:25.527 and he fought to have a scene where the characters 0:10:25.567 --> 0:10:28.167 climaxed at the same time on their wedding night, and 0:10:28.247 --> 0:10:31.607 told Lively that he and his partner always did, and 0:10:31.647 --> 0:10:34.567 allegedly pressed her on whether that was the case with 0:10:34.727 --> 0:10:37.767 her husband. And she says she was very uncomfortable by 0:10:37.767 --> 0:10:42.887 that conversation. There's an allegation about the childbirth scene, which 0:10:42.927 --> 0:10:46.367 is particularly unsettling. It wasn't agreed that she would be 0:10:46.487 --> 0:10:48.287 naked for it, but then when she got on set, 0:10:48.367 --> 0:10:52.247 she says that he insisted she be naked. They compromised 0:10:52.647 --> 0:10:55.327 that she would be naked from the waist down, but 0:10:55.887 --> 0:10:59.607 the set wasn't closed and in the end his friend 0:10:59.767 --> 0:11:02.527 came in to play the role of the obgyn. 0:11:02.927 --> 0:11:05.887 I think this is possibly the most chilling thing because 0:11:05.927 --> 0:11:08.527 what's so illuminating about reading will link to it if 0:11:08.607 --> 0:11:11.367 anybody wants to look at it, which I think you should. 0:11:11.527 --> 0:11:14.567 But you learn a lot about Hollywood and how sex 0:11:14.607 --> 0:11:17.327 scenes work right, and there are things like nudity writers 0:11:17.367 --> 0:11:21.287 where everybody agrees what the parameters before. 0:11:21.047 --> 0:11:22.087 You go into a scene. 0:11:22.087 --> 0:11:25.407 Things like closed sets when there's nudity, so only essential 0:11:25.407 --> 0:11:28.327 people are there, Monitors are turned off so other people 0:11:28.367 --> 0:11:30.767 can't look from other rooms and even film you. 0:11:31.287 --> 0:11:32.607 So she was in stirrups. 0:11:32.647 --> 0:11:35.487 She had a little bit of fabric just literally covering 0:11:35.487 --> 0:11:39.127 her and the role of the gynecologist. They were like 0:11:39.167 --> 0:11:43.967 between her legs and also another owner of his studio 0:11:44.087 --> 0:11:46.887 Wayfair had just flown in to visit the set on 0:11:46.967 --> 0:11:50.127 that day for the first time, like it is so 0:11:50.887 --> 0:11:51.967 gross and creepy. 0:11:52.527 --> 0:11:56.207 It also is clearly from this very long list of 0:11:56.327 --> 0:12:00.247 requests clear that this set was a shit show, right 0:12:00.287 --> 0:12:04.007 because one of them is also stop having hours long 0:12:04.127 --> 0:12:09.607 meetings where Baldoni cries and no more pressing from Baldly 0:12:09.767 --> 0:12:14.687 to sage any of Blake Live's employees, like this is 0:12:14.727 --> 0:12:17.327 batshit what's going on on that set, And it seems 0:12:17.327 --> 0:12:19.367 that she's very much trying to say, let's get back 0:12:19.367 --> 0:12:21.207 to a professional set. 0:12:21.407 --> 0:12:23.407 And they're at claims as well that when you know 0:12:23.447 --> 0:12:26.127 there were certain moments where Lively was made to feel uncomfortable, 0:12:26.167 --> 0:12:28.847 other women from the set came up and said, I've 0:12:28.847 --> 0:12:32.047 also had that experience. So the allegations are that it 0:12:32.207 --> 0:12:34.327 was not just her, she was trying to protect the 0:12:34.327 --> 0:12:36.727 whole set. The last thing I'll say, and I. 0:12:36.687 --> 0:12:38.607 Could go on and on about what's in this. 0:12:38.727 --> 0:12:42.767 Complaint, but the last thing is she alleges that there 0:12:42.887 --> 0:12:47.727 was a clear marketing plan that was distributed to the 0:12:47.807 --> 0:12:51.367 cast and everyone involved in marketing it about how to 0:12:51.407 --> 0:12:54.047 promote the film. This was from Sony and they said 0:12:54.407 --> 0:12:57.087 they wanted to focus on hope and resilience and not 0:12:57.247 --> 0:13:00.927 position this as a domestic violence film. They say that 0:13:01.007 --> 0:13:05.607 Baldoni went against this, and that's massive because at the 0:13:05.647 --> 0:13:09.567 time everyone was going, why is she not acknowledged that 0:13:09.607 --> 0:13:12.647 this is a film about domestic violence. Baldoni was over 0:13:12.687 --> 0:13:16.767 here with a link in his Instagram bio to help victims. 0:13:17.167 --> 0:13:21.367 Everything he said in his messaging was acknowledging victims, and 0:13:21.447 --> 0:13:24.247 this made Lively look really bad. 0:13:24.967 --> 0:13:27.127 Well, as it turns out, or at least what's alleged 0:13:27.167 --> 0:13:30.927 here is that that pivot Jesse was a very deliberate 0:13:30.927 --> 0:13:35.407 one to smear Blake Lively because Baldoni and his team 0:13:35.567 --> 0:13:39.007 knew what was coming. So to the smear campaign and 0:13:39.047 --> 0:13:41.847 why I say that this is a story that's not 0:13:41.887 --> 0:13:44.247 just about Blake Lively and just In Baldoni, but gives 0:13:44.407 --> 0:13:48.047 an insight into what is really behind a lot of 0:13:48.047 --> 0:13:51.007 what we believe right on social media. So all those 0:13:51.047 --> 0:13:53.127 tiktoks and stories that we talked about at the beginning 0:13:53.167 --> 0:13:56.207 that were being shared and reshared as facts that Lively 0:13:56.327 --> 0:13:59.207 was a mean girl, that Lively tried to hijack the movie, 0:13:59.727 --> 0:14:02.767 that Lively just wanted to promote a haircare brand. What's 0:14:02.807 --> 0:14:06.207 alleged in this document is there was nothing organic about 0:14:06.247 --> 0:14:10.087 those stories, and that the PR firm hired by when 0:14:10.087 --> 0:14:14.967 he realized that Reynolds had blocked him on Instagram, Baldonian, 0:14:15.047 --> 0:14:18.167 his producing partner, hired this firm who were expert in 0:14:18.247 --> 0:14:21.607 the dark arts of smearing, starting rumors and fanning the 0:14:21.647 --> 0:14:24.967 flames of negativity. Some of the tactics that are alleged 0:14:24.967 --> 0:14:28.527 to have happened are that the PR team would boost 0:14:28.607 --> 0:14:32.447 negative stories about Lively, branding her as difficult and tone deaf. 0:14:32.927 --> 0:14:36.527 That contractors were allegedly hired to dominate social media with 0:14:36.607 --> 0:14:42.367 untraceable tactics like social manipulation and proactive fan posting. A 0:14:42.487 --> 0:14:46.527 hired gun helped amplify negative narratives online, including on platforms 0:14:46.567 --> 0:14:50.887 like TikTok and Reddit, and basically all these threads of 0:14:51.007 --> 0:14:54.847 theories started being sown and then amplified. Now it's actually 0:14:54.887 --> 0:14:58.087 impossible even by the investigative journalists at the New York 0:14:58.087 --> 0:15:01.487 Times and actually by the legal team, to be able 0:15:01.527 --> 0:15:05.807 to absolutely identify exactly what the amplification did. As we know, 0:15:05.847 --> 0:15:09.087 the Internet is sprawling and enormous. But the negative stories 0:15:09.087 --> 0:15:13.887 that were planted, were planted very deliberately and then encouraged. 0:15:14.047 --> 0:15:17.527 So this tells you everything about how we the public 0:15:18.007 --> 0:15:20.247 were manipulated in this story. 0:15:20.647 --> 0:15:23.447 In August, there were two things we talked about. The 0:15:23.527 --> 0:15:26.847 first was something that we've referred to as the dig, 0:15:27.287 --> 0:15:29.567 which is what happens when someone is in the process 0:15:29.607 --> 0:15:33.527 of cancelation, and we were saying that it's again back 0:15:33.527 --> 0:15:37.087 to it being disproportionate. Is that people started yelling about 0:15:37.087 --> 0:15:42.727 her plantation wedding, about how Reynolds cheated on Scarlet your 0:15:42.767 --> 0:15:46.567 Hansen with Lively, how she's always been rude. Everyone on 0:15:46.607 --> 0:15:50.207 Gossip Girl hated her. There were weird videos of people 0:15:50.407 --> 0:15:52.607 gifting her a bracelet on a red carpet and she 0:15:52.607 --> 0:15:54.927 would not accept it, or something like. 0:15:55.007 --> 0:15:57.847 The one that got the most traction was and I 0:15:57.887 --> 0:16:00.847 remember thinking at the time, this is weird. Without wanting to, 0:16:01.207 --> 0:16:03.487 we definitely had our doubts and we spoke about this 0:16:03.567 --> 0:16:08.367 on the show, as did others. That interview with a 0:16:08.527 --> 0:16:12.807 Swedish journal last entertainment journalist called Christie Flaher which came 0:16:12.847 --> 0:16:15.447 out where it showed her interviewing Blake Lively for a 0:16:15.447 --> 0:16:19.687 different movie. I think back in twenty fifteen, and it 0:16:19.807 --> 0:16:23.407 showed Blake being a little bit rude, and for some 0:16:23.527 --> 0:16:26.447 reason she posted that with the headline the interview that 0:16:26.487 --> 0:16:29.847 made me want to quit my job. That was in 0:16:29.887 --> 0:16:33.807 twenty sixteen. That interview happened, and yet it came out. 0:16:34.447 --> 0:16:37.167 Now why did it come out? Well, you could say 0:16:37.167 --> 0:16:40.647 that organically that journalist was just trying to ride the 0:16:40.647 --> 0:16:43.967 wave of hate against Blake Lively. But what was revealed 0:16:43.967 --> 0:16:47.767 in this was that this journalist had worked with the 0:16:47.807 --> 0:16:51.447 PR company before, because they'd also represented Johnny Depp in 0:16:51.487 --> 0:16:55.527 his trial against Amber Heard. And we know that some 0:16:55.567 --> 0:16:59.207 really dodgy things happened then, in terms of how Amber 0:16:59.247 --> 0:17:03.007 Heard was trolled and the volume of internet hate towards her, 0:17:03.687 --> 0:17:07.207 so much of which was seen to be manufactured. So again, 0:17:07.327 --> 0:17:09.847 it wasn't organic. And there's a word called ASTROI which 0:17:09.847 --> 0:17:13.967 I learned, which is basically means you think something is 0:17:14.047 --> 0:17:16.647 organic it looks like natural grass, but when you look. 0:17:16.487 --> 0:17:18.327 Closer you see that it's artificial. 0:17:18.607 --> 0:17:21.607 And what that means is that these things are planted 0:17:21.727 --> 0:17:23.727 and then amplified. 0:17:23.367 --> 0:17:26.447 Either by bots or by these agencies. That's what they do. 0:17:26.727 --> 0:17:29.567 Yeah, So in terms of being planted, I think That's 0:17:29.607 --> 0:17:33.847 an important point because in the investigation it sort of 0:17:33.887 --> 0:17:36.807 said this isn't bots. I always imagined it was bots. 0:17:37.327 --> 0:17:41.367 But at the time, I was posting on TikTok about 0:17:41.367 --> 0:17:44.167 the Blake Lively thing, and I was noticing that every 0:17:44.207 --> 0:17:47.887 time I posted something that was defensive, it got no reach. 0:17:48.047 --> 0:17:50.207 So I remember talking about this on the show, only 0:17:50.407 --> 0:17:53.087 a few hundred views, and then I posted one thing 0:17:53.087 --> 0:17:56.167 that was cheeky that had like a something about Blake 0:17:56.207 --> 0:17:59.367 Lively's cancelation. It actually went against it, but all the 0:17:59.407 --> 0:18:01.607 metadata would have suggested that I was about to go 0:18:01.687 --> 0:18:06.807 her blew up, and it seemed that if you were 0:18:06.847 --> 0:18:11.487 being critical of Blake Lively, your content was on steroids. 0:18:11.807 --> 0:18:14.767 As someone who consumes a lot of social media content, 0:18:14.927 --> 0:18:18.047 it is not often that you get a unanimous view 0:18:18.367 --> 0:18:23.007 on anything, but you went onto these media platforms and 0:18:23.167 --> 0:18:26.927 all of a sudden, it was like wall to wall. 0:18:27.967 --> 0:18:31.687 Everyone hated her. And let's be clear, if you saw 0:18:31.727 --> 0:18:33.887 someone pop up and have a go at Blake Lively, 0:18:34.967 --> 0:18:38.567 that was probably legitimate. But where they were getting the information, 0:18:39.247 --> 0:18:43.087 how their brain had been marinating in content kind of 0:18:43.567 --> 0:18:44.367 contributed to that. 0:18:44.767 --> 0:18:47.327 Well. It creates a lens, and I should say, Christy 0:18:47.407 --> 0:18:49.487 Flower has come out and said she has nothing to 0:18:49.487 --> 0:18:53.567 do with the alleged smear campaign, But she was exactly 0:18:53.567 --> 0:18:56.767 what you were talking about, Jesse. She was being opportunistic. Yes, 0:18:56.847 --> 0:18:59.927 so we live in the attention economy and if you 0:19:00.047 --> 0:19:03.527 wanted to go viral, everybody looks at the numbers who 0:19:03.527 --> 0:19:06.407 makes content and in the media, so you knew that 0:19:06.447 --> 0:19:10.447 if you did something that was against Lively, it would 0:19:10.487 --> 0:19:13.687 go off. So it's important to understand how something can 0:19:13.727 --> 0:19:17.087 be both organic and manipulated because. 0:19:16.847 --> 0:19:19.527 People will say, but hang on Blake Lively. 0:19:19.607 --> 0:19:23.247 They didn't make her try and promote her hair care line, 0:19:23.287 --> 0:19:26.607 they didn't make her reference alcohol, they didn't make her 0:19:26.647 --> 0:19:27.727 wear florals. 0:19:28.527 --> 0:19:32.247 But the thing is that it's the volume, so you can. 0:19:32.087 --> 0:19:35.487 Start to believe, oh, everybody hates Blake Lively, and when 0:19:35.487 --> 0:19:39.127 you hear enough of that, it does impact on how 0:19:39.167 --> 0:19:39.967 you view someone. 0:19:40.207 --> 0:19:44.727 And there was also I remember looking at interviews where 0:19:44.847 --> 0:19:48.567 she seemed really insensitive about the subject matter of the film, 0:19:48.927 --> 0:19:51.567 but it was so purposefully cut and if you watch 0:19:51.607 --> 0:19:54.207 the whole interview, that's not how it seemed. And then 0:19:54.247 --> 0:19:56.927 you were getting Justin Baldoni with these incredible cuts of 0:19:57.287 --> 0:20:01.047 him saying something really eloquent about domestic violence. So it 0:20:01.087 --> 0:20:04.607 did seem that, yeah, I suppose that that is allegedly 0:20:04.647 --> 0:20:05.407 part of the smearing. 0:20:06.087 --> 0:20:09.367 This is where the we can bury anyone headline comes 0:20:09.647 --> 0:20:13.407 because in the New York Times investigation, there are literal 0:20:13.447 --> 0:20:18.687 screenshots of text messages between Baldoni's people and the PR 0:20:18.767 --> 0:20:22.927 people saying exactly that that they can bury anybody with 0:20:23.087 --> 0:20:25.807 enough ammunition, and that they needed to do it to 0:20:25.807 --> 0:20:28.927 get Baldoni's story across. We're going to be back in 0:20:28.967 --> 0:20:30.647 a minute, but first a little break. 0:20:37.247 --> 0:20:41.007 I want to talk about the effect of how cancelation 0:20:41.167 --> 0:20:45.327 works and how it can be manipulated, because, having experienced 0:20:45.367 --> 0:20:48.567 it a number of times organically, certainly not to my knowledge, 0:20:48.567 --> 0:20:52.407 with a calculated or paid smear campaign by a publicist, 0:20:53.647 --> 0:20:57.847 things gain traction, and then everybody wants to be part 0:20:57.847 --> 0:21:00.007 of a pylon, right, That's why it's called a dog 0:21:00.047 --> 0:21:06.047 pile or a pylon, and there becomes status in reinforcing 0:21:06.447 --> 0:21:10.967 the accepted narrative, which in this case was that Justin 0:21:11.007 --> 0:21:13.967 Baldoni was a hero and cared about domestic violence victims, 0:21:14.167 --> 0:21:17.727 and Blake Lively was an entitled diva who cared about 0:21:17.727 --> 0:21:20.407 nothing other than her hair and looking pretty. 0:21:20.967 --> 0:21:24.287 And because of that that sort of narrative about who 0:21:24.287 --> 0:21:27.527 Blake Lively was, she's a prime candidate for this, right, 0:21:28.047 --> 0:21:31.767 because the thing that's very depressing about this story is 0:21:31.807 --> 0:21:34.087 that we're all being manipulated all the time right on 0:21:34.127 --> 0:21:36.607 social media, and we think we're having our own thoughts 0:21:36.647 --> 0:21:39.247 about things and going, yes, I see, But what this 0:21:39.327 --> 0:21:42.487 shows very clearly is that we're being As Lively said 0:21:42.527 --> 0:21:44.487 in her statement about it, she said she wanted to 0:21:44.527 --> 0:21:47.407 show behind the curtain of how these things start. But 0:21:47.527 --> 0:21:50.047 one of the things that we've got to ask ourselves 0:21:50.167 --> 0:21:54.087 is why are we so invested in thinking awful things 0:21:54.087 --> 0:21:58.567 about women? And women like Lively? You know she in particular, 0:21:58.687 --> 0:22:01.607 I guess she is blonde and beautiful, married to a 0:22:01.727 --> 0:22:03.967 rich man. She is a striver we've talked about on 0:22:04.007 --> 0:22:05.727 this show lots of times, is the worst thing you 0:22:05.847 --> 0:22:09.247 can be. She has her own businesses, She tries really 0:22:09.327 --> 0:22:12.607 heart like, she promoted the shit out of that movie, 0:22:12.967 --> 0:22:16.927 and it's almost like the world was dying to believe 0:22:16.967 --> 0:22:18.887 this about her, which is one of the things I 0:22:19.047 --> 0:22:21.727 find deeply depressing about it. 0:22:21.807 --> 0:22:25.167 And that's what the crisis pr person behind all of 0:22:25.167 --> 0:22:28.087 this actually said in one of them. And the reason 0:22:28.087 --> 0:22:29.967 we have these texts, I should say, is because they 0:22:29.967 --> 0:22:34.967 were subpoened. So it's the genius of Blake Lively, and 0:22:35.007 --> 0:22:36.887 all of this is to go, I'm going to get 0:22:36.887 --> 0:22:40.007 all the evidence I need to show what really happened, 0:22:40.367 --> 0:22:44.527 which is that you have Melissa Nathan saying basically, I 0:22:44.567 --> 0:22:47.647 can't believe how quickly people just want to hate a woman. 0:22:47.967 --> 0:22:50.887 I'm seeing all this positive justin Baldoni stuff, and I 0:22:50.887 --> 0:22:53.167 don't even agree with half of it. So it was 0:22:53.327 --> 0:22:57.327 like they lit the fire and then when it blew up, 0:22:57.407 --> 0:23:01.927