1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:01,640
Speaker 1: Hallo, beautiful neighborhood.

2
00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,000
Speaker 2: I had a fresh new episode ready for you for today,

3
00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,520
Speaker 2: but I saw on Facebook Memories what a marvelous invention

4
00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,920
Speaker 2: that it's been one year exactly since one of our

5
00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,360
Speaker 2: most popular episodes ever, so it felt like a nice

6
00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,840
Speaker 2: time to bump this one back into your ears, especially

7
00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,599
Speaker 2: with so many of us still in lockdown. I personally

8
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,120
Speaker 2: loved the escapism of going back to this one again,

9
00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,880
Speaker 2: so hopefully some of you do too, or if you

10
00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:27,880
Speaker 2: missed it the first time, it is one of my

11
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,240
Speaker 2: favorites ever. Please ignore any time specific references, although most

12
00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,839
Speaker 2: of our ya is evergreen, so hopefully you enjoy it

13
00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:36,960
Speaker 2: as much as I did the first time, the second time,

14
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,000
Speaker 2: and probably the third time that I've listened to it.

15
00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,599
Speaker 2: I truly soak this one up, as you guys can

16
00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,879
Speaker 2: tell since a year later, I'm still banging on about it,

17
00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,040
Speaker 2: and I'll keep this week's fresh episode for you for

18
00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,519
Speaker 2: next week, which is also a banger you might have

19
00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,600
Speaker 2: seen on socials that We very very closely followed the

20
00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,680
Speaker 2: amazing Jess Fox's Gold Metal performance in Tokyo this year

21
00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:58,600
Speaker 2: and was so lucky to be able to sit down

22
00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,080
Speaker 2: with her while she is in we are preparing for

23
00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,600
Speaker 2: the World Cup to chat about that experience, Her Way,

24
00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,240
Speaker 2: Toya to get there and everything else in between, which

25
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,000
Speaker 2: I'm so excited to share, So make sure you've subscribed

26
00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:11,680
Speaker 2: to get that one as well next week.

27
00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,760
Speaker 3: When it drops, the water is like coffee. You cannot

28
00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:16,440
Speaker 3: see your hand in front of your face. So that

29
00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:18,919
Speaker 3: must have been just horrific swimming through that water waiting

30
00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,440
Speaker 3: to find all these bodies. When suddenly these lights came

31
00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,320
Speaker 3: on and one by one all these boys started running

32
00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,360
Speaker 3: down the hill. Of course, the whole world suddenly went, yeah,

33
00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,720
Speaker 3: they're saved, you know, no worries, But anyone who knows

34
00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,399
Speaker 3: anything about caving and cave diving went, oh my god,

35
00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,600
Speaker 3: what do we do now? There are risks out there,

36
00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,640
Speaker 3: but without risk taking, we don't become resilient. We don't

37
00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,560
Speaker 3: become confident. We have to do things that challenges and

38
00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,080
Speaker 3: can be hard or uncomfortable. If you think you're no good,

39
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 3: it's something, the best way to fix it is to

40
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:48,840
Speaker 3: just do it.

41
00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,960
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Seas the YA Podcast. Busy and happy

42
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,080
Speaker 2: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

43
00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,880
Speaker 2: makes the heart seeing We work, then we rest, but

44
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,160
Speaker 2: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

45
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,960
Speaker 2: one way. So this is the platforms to hear and

46
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,480
Speaker 2: explore the stories of those who found lives they adore,

47
00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,320
Speaker 2: the good, bad and ugly, The best and worst day

48
00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,959
Speaker 2: will bear all the facets of seizing your Yea. I'm

49
00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,360
Speaker 2: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned

50
00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,200
Speaker 2: funentrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found

51
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,440
Speaker 2: matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bar. Sez the Ya is

52
00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,240
Speaker 2: a series of conversations on finding a life you love

53
00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,280
Speaker 2: and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along

54
00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:38,640
Speaker 2: the way. Sometimes I choose our guests out of purely

55
00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,440
Speaker 2: selfish curiosity to converse with a particular person, regardless of

56
00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,840
Speaker 2: whether anyone else would find them interesting, although I suspect

57
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,800
Speaker 2: most of you will be as fascinated by doctor Richard

58
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:49,880
Speaker 2: Harris as I am.

59
00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:51,799
Speaker 1: After a random.

60
00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,200
Speaker 2: News article led me off on a multi hour internet

61
00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,720
Speaker 2: tangent a few weeks ago, I bought doctor Harris's book

62
00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,360
Speaker 2: against all odds and got it in my head that

63
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 2: I had to talk to him, and I'm so glad

64
00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:04,919
Speaker 2: He very kindly agreed to.

65
00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:05,840
Speaker 1: Jump on the show.

66
00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,040
Speaker 2: You know, I get overly excited about the unique way

67
00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,960
Speaker 2: our talents and interests can intersect to create a yayfield life.

68
00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,320
Speaker 2: And Doctor Harris, or Harry as he insists I call him,

69
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,320
Speaker 2: has a truly unique set of skills as an anthetist

70
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,919
Speaker 2: and technical cave diver. I'm pretty sure I said that wrong. Aneseotist,

71
00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,760
Speaker 2: a nethetist anyway, you know what I'm saying. So unique,

72
00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,840
Speaker 2: in fact were his skills that he was pretty much

73
00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,600
Speaker 2: the only person in the world equipped to help sedate

74
00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 2: and thereby save the thirteen young Thaie boys of the

75
00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,720
Speaker 2: Wild Boars soccer team who got stuck four kilometers into

76
00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,040
Speaker 2: a cave in Thailand in the rainy season of twenty eighteen,

77
00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,640
Speaker 2: along with diving mate and co author Dr Craig Challon,

78
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,000
Speaker 2: with whom he won Australian of the Year last year.

79
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,000
Speaker 2: I don't think I need to say much more to

80
00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,920
Speaker 2: explain why I'm fascinated by historian skill set. I gush

81
00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,440
Speaker 2: a lot in this one, but I just couldn't fathom

82
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,840
Speaker 2: the enormity of the task before him, the details of

83
00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,080
Speaker 2: which definitely went over my head watching it on the

84
00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,000
Speaker 2: news at the time, among many other things. Harry also

85
00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,760
Speaker 2: has his own wonderful podcast, the Real Risk Podcast, so

86
00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,919
Speaker 2: was equipped with a proper mic, such a pro so

87
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,680
Speaker 2: that'll be a nice little break from our guest zoom audio.

88
00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,840
Speaker 2: I highly recommend both his book and his podcast, the

89
00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,320
Speaker 2: latest episode of which is actually with the legendary James

90
00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,960
Speaker 2: Cameron of Titanic fame. I'll include links at the end,

91
00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,760
Speaker 2: and I hope you enjoy doctor Harris, even though you

92
00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,160
Speaker 2: very humbly told me I was only allowed to call

93
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,039
Speaker 2: you that once. Welcome to the show.

94
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:41,400
Speaker 3: Are you welcome, Sarah?

95
00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,279
Speaker 2: I am so impressed. You have such a good setup

96
00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,000
Speaker 2: going there. You're the first person in a long time

97
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:47,200
Speaker 2: who's had a professional mic.

98
00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,600
Speaker 3: Well, we're both professionals here, and we've both chosen the

99
00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,560
Speaker 3: same microphone, so we're off to a good start.

100
00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:52,880
Speaker 1: Great minds.

101
00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,240
Speaker 2: So we usually kick off each episode with a little icebreaker,

102
00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,760
Speaker 2: but I've taken to adding in as simple how are you?

103
00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,599
Speaker 2: Since twenty twenty has been so crazy? And I think

104
00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,680
Speaker 2: Adelaide is faring a bit better than we are here

105
00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,360
Speaker 2: in Victoria. But how are you going over there?

106
00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,680
Speaker 3: Well? We are extraordinarily lucky here in South Australia. As

107
00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:13,720
Speaker 3: you know, we've got very few cases and we're still

108
00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,839
Speaker 3: wandering the streets pretty well, so I feel like I

109
00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,080
Speaker 3: have no reason to complain at all looking what you

110
00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,240
Speaker 3: guys are suffering through in Victoria.

111
00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:25,080
Speaker 2: Well, thankfully, getting totally engrossed in books and stories like

112
00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,560
Speaker 2: yours has definitely been helping me through, which brings me

113
00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,479
Speaker 2: back to the actual icebreaker, which is to ask what

114
00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,000
Speaker 2: the most down to earth thing is about each guest.

115
00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,839
Speaker 2: And that's mainly because for people who have been in

116
00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,400
Speaker 2: the media, and particularly yourself, after having read your book

117
00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,320
Speaker 2: twice in the past couple of weeks, it can be

118
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,760
Speaker 2: so easy to put people on a pedestal and forget

119
00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,719
Speaker 2: they're not superheroes, even though of course I still insist.

120
00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:49,920
Speaker 3: That you are.

121
00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 2: And I've actually heard you refer to yourself a couple

122
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,880
Speaker 2: of times as a paunchy old man, so I'm sure

123
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,760
Speaker 2: there's something relatable that you can share in between all

124
00:05:58,800 --> 00:05:59,640
Speaker 2: the superpowers.

125
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,840
Speaker 3: Oh well, in addition to being a punchy middle aged man.

126
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,919
Speaker 3: If you could see me now, I'm in my tracking

127
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,880
Speaker 3: docks and my ug boots and i haven't shaved for

128
00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,360
Speaker 3: three days because I've had the weekend off. So, yeah,

129
00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 3: I'm just a dag.

130
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,200
Speaker 1: Amazing. I love it.

131
00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,480
Speaker 2: I love that you think you're a dag, mean while

132
00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,760
Speaker 2: you're out actually saving the world. But that's really nice

133
00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:18,279
Speaker 2: that you think that.

134
00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:18,800
Speaker 3: Well.

135
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the first section is Your Wayta, which again

136
00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,400
Speaker 2: focuses on humanizing our guests, tracing their story and pathway

137
00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,520
Speaker 2: back through you know, all the chapters that came before

138
00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,560
Speaker 2: the one we often encounter them in and I love

139
00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,720
Speaker 2: to remind the listeners just how uniquely we all find

140
00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,000
Speaker 2: our place in the world and how nonlinear the journey

141
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,640
Speaker 2: to get there often is. So take us back to

142
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,599
Speaker 2: young Harry. What was your childhood? Like doctor and nurse

143
00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,560
Speaker 2: parents are really outdoorsy beginning to your life?

144
00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think I had a very privileged childhood.

145
00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,600
Speaker 3: As you said, my parents both had good jobs. My

146
00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,559
Speaker 3: dad was a surgeon, so we were never short of money,

147
00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,760
Speaker 3: we never had to do anything you know, tough really,

148
00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:07,800
Speaker 3: so I consider myself to be incredibly lucky through just

149
00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,120
Speaker 3: my birth and most circumstances. So life was, you know,

150
00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,480
Speaker 3: as close to perfection as it could be. I think

151
00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 3: we're a very happy family, really close, very tight with

152
00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,200
Speaker 3: our you know, uncles and aunties and cousins, you know,

153
00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:26,320
Speaker 3: big extended family, very Australian upbringing here in Adelaide. Life

154
00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,640
Speaker 3: for me revolved around summer. You know, I would be

155
00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,560
Speaker 3: pretty much in my short snow shirt, pair of thongs

156
00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,680
Speaker 3: and walking, whether it was walking the streets or walking

157
00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,000
Speaker 3: the beaches, getting sun burnt so badly every year that

158
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,680
Speaker 3: I would sort of count how good a summer it

159
00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,200
Speaker 3: was by how many times my back peeled off, you know,

160
00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,720
Speaker 3: that sort of disgraceful upbringing that you would be. You know,

161
00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,520
Speaker 3: the parents would be sent to prison for child abuse

162
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:51,400
Speaker 3: now if that happened.

163
00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,040
Speaker 1: But we've come a long way.

164
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,040
Speaker 3: We have, and you know, I'm not saying this is

165
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,080
Speaker 3: a good thing, but that was that was summer for us.

166
00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,480
Speaker 3: It was just stub toes and thongs and foot shorts

167
00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,440
Speaker 3: and sunburn and growing up in a family who loved

168
00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,920
Speaker 3: the ocean, small boats, catching whiting ie fish to eat,

169
00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,600
Speaker 3: and also at the same time exploring the sea as

170
00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,920
Speaker 3: a young boy as a snorkeler with a little hand

171
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,880
Speaker 3: spear trying to catch food and look at stuff. I

172
00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,280
Speaker 3: just loved it, just look at stuff.

173
00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think one of the things I loved

174
00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:26,880
Speaker 2: so much about your story. The first time I heard

175
00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,240
Speaker 2: it was that you can trace both your medical interests

176
00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,320
Speaker 2: and your underwater interests back to those early days. Even

177
00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,840
Speaker 2: though possibly no one could have guessed how that would

178
00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,480
Speaker 2: manifest later, it was present right from those early days.

179
00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,160
Speaker 2: And you've got your open water diving course at fifteen,

180
00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,680
Speaker 2: so you'd started diving at least not in caves just yet,

181
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,120
Speaker 2: but you'd started the diving process.

182
00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,320
Speaker 1: Then what drove you towards that?

183
00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,319
Speaker 3: Well, it was an extension of the snorkeling and spearfishing

184
00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,920
Speaker 3: for me, and in fact I started diving probably when

185
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,680
Speaker 3: I was about thirteen. We're lucky to have family friends

186
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,800
Speaker 3: who were into it. A couple of my parents' friends.

187
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,920
Speaker 3: One was a woman who was a marine biologist who

188
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,920
Speaker 3: was a really important figure in my childhood. In retrospect

189
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,439
Speaker 3: looking back, I used to go spearfishing, and I recount

190
00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,280
Speaker 3: one story in the book. I think that I came

191
00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,760
Speaker 3: back from catching some reef fish which were completely inedible,

192
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,559
Speaker 3: and I laid them proudly on the beach in front

193
00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,400
Speaker 3: of all the parents. I must have been twelve or

194
00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,240
Speaker 3: thirteen at the time, and this lady came over to

195
00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,440
Speaker 3: me and went, oh, OK, what have you caught here.

196
00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,640
Speaker 3: And I said, well, I don't really know what their

197
00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,960
Speaker 3: names are, but this is you know, I'm pretty proud

198
00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,520
Speaker 3: of myself. And she said, well, you know, this one's

199
00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,520
Speaker 3: are such and such, and this is what it eats

200
00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,640
Speaker 3: and that's where it lives. And of course you can't

201
00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:41,920
Speaker 3: eat that one, it's not edible. And one by one

202
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,719
Speaker 3: she went through the fish and told me what they were,

203
00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,200
Speaker 3: and told me about their habits and all this sort

204
00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,880
Speaker 3: of stuff. And she then said, very cleverly, so what

205
00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:50,560
Speaker 3: are you going to do with them now? And I

206
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,120
Speaker 3: suddenly felt this wave of shame over me that I

207
00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,360
Speaker 3: just killed these really interesting and pretty fish for no

208
00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,280
Speaker 3: reason whatsoever. And from that point on I kind of

209
00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,760
Speaker 3: changed the way I looked at the water, and it

210
00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,600
Speaker 3: really made me think about what I was doing. So

211
00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:06,360
Speaker 3: it didn't stop me spearfishing. I mean I loved I

212
00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,600
Speaker 3: did enjoy it, and so, but I would only shoot

213
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,560
Speaker 3: a fish that I could eat. And I decided to

214
00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,679
Speaker 3: learn the names and the habits of all these fish.

215
00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:15,920
Speaker 3: In fact, she gave me a book. I've still got it.

216
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,520
Speaker 3: The first book I had, called The Marine and Freshwater

217
00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,120
Speaker 3: Fishes of South Australia, was produced by the South Australian Museum,

218
00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,760
Speaker 3: and I had all these beautiful black and white plates

219
00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,840
Speaker 3: of the fishes, pictures and names, and I just studied it.

220
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,880
Speaker 3: I became obsessed by it and decided then and there

221
00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:32,880
Speaker 3: that I was going to be a marine biologist, which

222
00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,520
Speaker 3: a dream that I really hung onto actually, And it

223
00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,360
Speaker 3: was almost a toss of the coin choice between that,

224
00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,520
Speaker 3: veterinary science and medicine for me, which of the three

225
00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,199
Speaker 3: I would do. And I ended up in medicine, partly

226
00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,040
Speaker 3: because I got the marks to do it, and I

227
00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,640
Speaker 3: missed out on vet science. Interestingly, I had enough marks

228
00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:52,080
Speaker 3: to be a doctor, but not to be a vet

229
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,400
Speaker 3: and a cousin who was doing marine biology told me

230
00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,760
Speaker 3: that there were no jobs in the field and taught

231
00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,680
Speaker 3: me out of it. So it was and still is

232
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,400
Speaker 3: quite a strong interest for me.

233
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,920
Speaker 2: It's so interesting looking back now and realizing how just

234
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,360
Speaker 2: how early that was in your journey, and how much

235
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,240
Speaker 2: more control you have over your decisions later in life

236
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,320
Speaker 2: than you think. I imagine at that time, when you

237
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,400
Speaker 2: were choosing between those three things, you thought it was

238
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,720
Speaker 2: like a forever choice and it was the most important

239
00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,320
Speaker 2: decision you were ever going to make. But I think

240
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,120
Speaker 2: we so overestimate how final that decision is and how

241
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,960
Speaker 2: many different directions your life is expected to go after that.

242
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,160
Speaker 2: And you know, medicine didn't put an end to your

243
00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,240
Speaker 2: marine adventures at all.

244
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,480
Speaker 3: No, definitely not, although I do I worry about some

245
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:41,920
Speaker 3: doctors because they do become completely immersed in the world

246
00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,360
Speaker 3: of medicine and their career. It's almost like a vocation

247
00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:49,240
Speaker 3: for them, and many of them find themselves at retirement age.

248
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,240
Speaker 3: And I'm starting to see, you know, some colleagues who

249
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,640
Speaker 3: are maybe ten years older than me, they're getting close

250
00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,880
Speaker 3: to retirement, and some of them have said to me, Ah,

251
00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,360
Speaker 3: I sort of admire the way you've conducted your life, Harry,

252
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,360
Speaker 3: you know, or other outside interests, because I'm suddenly thinking

253
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:04,079
Speaker 3: I don't know what I'm going to do with myself.

254
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,600
Speaker 3: I've got nothing else. And you need doctors to be

255
00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,360
Speaker 3: pretty focused, obviously on their job, and you'd want that

256
00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,040
Speaker 3: in your doctor as a patient. But I also think

257
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,680
Speaker 3: it's very important that your doctor has a life outside

258
00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,800
Speaker 3: of medicine, because how can they relate to people normally.

259
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,160
Speaker 3: I mean, some doctors don't really have to if they're

260
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,400
Speaker 3: looking at your X rays or looking at a piece

261
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,960
Speaker 3: of view under the microscope. But you know, if you

262
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,840
Speaker 3: want your GP to be a well rounded person, so

263
00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,800
Speaker 3: they have some idea of what goes on outside their office.

264
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,040
Speaker 2: It's so interesting that you said that, because this is

265
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,120
Speaker 2: where I get so fascinated. So I think the people

266
00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,360
Speaker 2: who tend to be not necessarily the most successful. And

267
00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,880
Speaker 2: the whole idea of this podcast is to separate and

268
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,640
Speaker 2: make a distinction between success and fulfillment, because I think

269
00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,800
Speaker 2: we chase success, we get on this very productivity hamster

270
00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,720
Speaker 2: wheel and end up on this autopilot's circuit that can

271
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:54,760
Speaker 2: lead people to be in their fifties and sixties and

272
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,800
Speaker 2: retirement age and have no hobbies and no interests and

273
00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,600
Speaker 2: no experience and think what have I done this time?

274
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,359
Speaker 2: But the people who have sort of recalibrated from financial

275
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,280
Speaker 2: metrics and titles and looked for joy and had activities,

276
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,440
Speaker 2: I call them your playt eight. Like if you don't

277
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,040
Speaker 2: play outside your vocation, you're missing a whole part of

278
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,240
Speaker 2: yourself that's for joy and exploration and that develops other

279
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,559
Speaker 2: sides of you that actually makes you a better worker

280
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:20,480
Speaker 2: as well, because you've got a.

281
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:21,800
Speaker 1: Breadth of experience behind you.

282
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,360
Speaker 2: And I love that You've always had such a strong

283
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,240
Speaker 2: endeavor outside of career that some would think would be

284
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,720
Speaker 2: all consuming, but you've still managed to do both, and

285
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,240
Speaker 2: I think it's obviously made you better for it and

286
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,040
Speaker 2: made your life experience better for it.

287
00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, I mean it depends how you measure success,

288
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,800
Speaker 3: for example, in medicine or in any career. But you know,

289
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,960
Speaker 3: obviously there are anythetus out there who are far more academic,

290
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,120
Speaker 3: They've done more research, they might be professors, they might

291
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 3: be far more skilled even at giving an anesthetic. But

292
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,480
Speaker 3: I certainly feel that I do enough and have been

293
00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,199
Speaker 3: well rounded enough to give a good quality anesthetic, a

294
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,360
Speaker 3: safe anesthetic. I'm not saying I'm the best, but I

295
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,640
Speaker 3: don't think i'm the worst. Fortunately, it's not a bad

296
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,160
Speaker 3: place to be. No. No, So I don't think I'm

297
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,080
Speaker 3: a star of Anesesia by any stretch. But my career

298
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,840
Speaker 3: has been so interesting to me, at least because I

299
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,040
Speaker 3: haven't been happy just to give anesthetics nine to five.

300
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,800
Speaker 3: I've really mixed it up in terms of the places

301
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,560
Speaker 3: I've worked, the types of medical work that I've done,

302
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:27,560
Speaker 3: which include stuff aligned with but not purely anesesia. The

303
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,920
Speaker 3: whole time, so that's been really important to me as well.

304
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:32,800
Speaker 3: I find I get this sort of five year each

305
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,360
Speaker 3: with my work. Where I go, I think I need

306
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,520
Speaker 3: to shake things up a bit and try something a

307
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,840
Speaker 3: bit different. I always do some anesesia, but the other

308
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:42,840
Speaker 3: half the time or part of the time, I might

309
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,120
Speaker 3: be off doing diving medicine, or eero medical retrieval work,

310
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,000
Speaker 3: or working in a third world country, or just something different.

311
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,040
Speaker 3: And as long as it fits in with the family,

312
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,600
Speaker 3: which it usually does, you know, it's been a huge

313
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:56,720
Speaker 3: success for me.

314
00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,440
Speaker 2: And that's the other thing that you just touched on

315
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,280
Speaker 2: that's important, is that it only has to really work

316
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,560
Speaker 2: for you. We're all meant to have different interpretations of

317
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,160
Speaker 2: a successful and joyful and fulfilling career, and for some

318
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,000
Speaker 2: that is pure academic achievement and rigor, and for others

319
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:13,600
Speaker 2: that does involve more of a balance.

320
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:14,240
Speaker 1: And I love that.

321
00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,000
Speaker 2: I love finding people who have stuck to things that

322
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,560
Speaker 2: have really invigorated them their whole lives and not let

323
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,800
Speaker 2: go of it because society thinks that things should look

324
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:23,960
Speaker 2: a certain way, or career paths should look a certain way.

325
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,760
Speaker 3: I certainly don't want to disrespect those medical people who

326
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,040
Speaker 3: are so focused and so passionate about their work that

327
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,359
Speaker 3: that is their life. I mean, that's fantastic, but that's

328
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,160
Speaker 3: never been me. I can't be happy unless I've got

329
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,120
Speaker 3: some way of making life a bit messy along the way.

330
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,880
Speaker 2: Well, your life has definitely not been short of a

331
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,080
Speaker 2: challenge in terms of all of your vocations. So before

332
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,160
Speaker 2: we get to obviously the chapter that I am so

333
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,400
Speaker 2: so excited to talk to you more about, how did

334
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,640
Speaker 2: you actually start that kind of broad practice.

335
00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,400
Speaker 1: So firstly, it takes a really.

336
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,840
Speaker 2: Long time to specialize, as in anything including anesthesia, and

337
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,000
Speaker 2: then on top of that to branch out after your

338
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,560
Speaker 2: specialization to get experience in aeromedical work. You ended up

339
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,680
Speaker 2: in New Zealand, and then you were here and then

340
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,040
Speaker 2: rural communities and then even started to sort of move

341
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,280
Speaker 2: your way back towards diving in hyperbaric medicine back in Adelaide.

342
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,040
Speaker 1: How did you craft that?

343
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,000
Speaker 2: Do you have that level of control from early or

344
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:24,840
Speaker 2: did you set out from the beginning, like how did

345
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,480
Speaker 2: you build that career for yourself?

346
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,960
Speaker 3: A lot of it's a bit I kind of go

347
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,280
Speaker 3: with the flow sometimes, but it comes back to this

348
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,960
Speaker 3: getting bored easily probably if I'm doing the same thing

349
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,920
Speaker 3: for too long, I start to seek out other opportunities.

350
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,200
Speaker 3: So diving in hyperbaric medicine was an obvious one because

351
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,880
Speaker 3: of my interest in diving since such a young age,

352
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,800
Speaker 3: and a lot of hyperbaric medicine units in the public

353
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:54,480
Speaker 3: hospitals in Australia are run by an esthetus or intensive

354
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:59,360
Speaker 3: care doctors or emergency medicine people or occupational physicians tend

355
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,520
Speaker 3: to be the group, but anissaus primarily, so I was

356
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,119
Speaker 3: always surrounded by people who worked in that field and

357
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:06,639
Speaker 3: it was always in the back of my mind that

358
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,600
Speaker 3: that's something I'd like to do. And yeah, an opportunity

359
00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,119
Speaker 3: came up, basically, so I started to do that and

360
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,760
Speaker 3: working part time, and I was just starting to think

361
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,880
Speaker 3: about maybe I've done this for long enough. I'd been

362
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,760
Speaker 3: working there about twelve years part time, and I actually

363
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:26,679
Speaker 3: opened the health Essay Health computer to renew my application

364
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:31,080
Speaker 3: or whatever it was, and the advertisement popped up for MedStar,

365
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:36,919
Speaker 3: Theessa Ambulance eramedical Service recruiting. Now I went, oh, that's me,

366
00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,439
Speaker 3: And that had been the other thing that I'd just

367
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:40,960
Speaker 3: been thinking about because I did a bit of it

368
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,119
Speaker 3: when I was training as an anissa, certainly in Adelaide

369
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,000
Speaker 3: and New Zealand. I did some so that had been

370
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:48,440
Speaker 3: in the back of my mind is something I'd like

371
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,600
Speaker 3: to revisit. And so this message popped up on the computer.

372
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,120
Speaker 3: I said, wow, I could just give them a call.

373
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,440
Speaker 3: I suppose see what happens. And I knew the guy

374
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,760
Speaker 3: who was the director of the service, and so I

375
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,960
Speaker 3: just gave him a ring and said, look, I haven't

376
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,680
Speaker 3: done this for the last eight years or something, since

377
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,000
Speaker 3: I was a trainee or a bit longer. Perhaps is

378
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,200
Speaker 3: it worth me coming down for a chat? And he said, sure, Harry,

379
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 3: come down, We'll have a talk. And there it was.

380
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,239
Speaker 3: So I got into that and really threw myself into that.

381
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,760
Speaker 3: Then I found it to be really to my liking.

382
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,960
Speaker 3: I love the excitement of that work, and I love

383
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,440
Speaker 3: the organization and the people that work. They're amazing bunch

384
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:27,320
Speaker 3: of doctors, nurses and paramedics, all really extraordinary people. And yeah,

385
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,840
Speaker 3: it got right into it and was going well until

386
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,000
Speaker 3: this crazy thing in Thailand happened when I had to

387
00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,760
Speaker 3: sadly sort of step away from it because I just

388
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,760
Speaker 3: didn't have time to commit to it.

389
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I still actually looking at your LinkedIn and the.

390
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,800
Speaker 1: Timeline, I was like, how has he fitted in all

391
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:44,600
Speaker 1: this stuff? Oh my god, how are you not a hundred?

392
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:47,800
Speaker 2: It's just I think you're such a testament to the

393
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,000
Speaker 2: fact that you can fit in a lot of life experience.

394
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,679
Speaker 2: If you're good at time management and you're committed to

395
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,000
Speaker 2: if you genuinely love it, you can make room for

396
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:55,720
Speaker 2: the things that you love.

397
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,040
Speaker 3: Well. My wife does take note that if ever things

398
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 3: are a bit quiet, diary is looking a bit empty,

399
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,800
Speaker 3: then I will find a project to sabotage that status

400
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,119
Speaker 3: quo very quickly, and I usually end up regretting it, going,

401
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,040
Speaker 3: oh my god, I've got so much on my plate,

402
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,520
Speaker 3: and I get really stressed. But then she says, she

403
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 3: notes that, well, as soon as you're quiet, then you

404
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,040
Speaker 3: know you do it to yourself. You find something to

405
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 3: take one.

406
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 1: Sucker for punishment.

407
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I also think people who have an insatiable

408
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,480
Speaker 2: thirst for adventure and extension, like self extension and mind

409
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 2: opening and new experiences your comfort zone. I have stepped

410
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,200
Speaker 2: out of it once, obviously, leaving corporate and moving into business,

411
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:35,760
Speaker 2: and I sort of patter myself on the back for

412
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 2: five years, thinking like I'm never going to have to

413
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,439
Speaker 2: take another step out of my comfort zone, but it

414
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,000
Speaker 2: catches up with you over time you grow into becoming

415
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,480
Speaker 2: comfortable again, and you need to continue to seek out

416
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,720
Speaker 2: those next steps that challenge you. And I'm sure you

417
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,399
Speaker 2: probably didn't imagine that the thail end step would be.

418
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,760
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a huge jump in challenge from a

419
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 2: difficult thing to something that the globe thinks is impossible quickly.

420
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,720
Speaker 2: Just before we go there, I mentioned before we started

421
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 2: recording that I'm also a sucker for a niche community

422
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 2: and just digging really deep into things that day to

423
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,760
Speaker 2: day most people have no idea about. But when you

424
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 2: start to dig beneath the surface, it's there's a whole

425
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,000
Speaker 2: worldwide community of people who are fascinated by something. And

426
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 2: I didn't actually think about cave diving as being such

427
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,640
Speaker 2: a specific skill, like separate to just deep sea diving

428
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,439
Speaker 2: or open water diving.

429
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,119
Speaker 1: It's very very specific.

430
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,119
Speaker 2: You all seem to know each other, and it's very technical.

431
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,359
Speaker 2: Like when we're talking caves, it's like at any one time,

432
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 2: you can't just surface like you're usually in tunnels. And

433
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 2: I didn't know any ofone would dive into zero visibility,

434
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 2: and how do you actually become proficient at that, Like,

435
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:42,879
Speaker 2: how do you graduate from like a normal diver to

436
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 2: a cave diver.

437
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 1: How do you even find the caves?

438
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,119
Speaker 3: All these days? It's a very established pathway actually, So

439
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,439
Speaker 3: if you're a comfortable scuba diver and you're looking to

440
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 3: do something more challenging, then I guess that's the one

441
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 3: of the next logical steps. So there's an area of

442
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 3: scuba diving that's become known as technical dive, which is

443
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 3: basically going beyond the normal recreational dive limits. So, as

444
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 3: an open water scuba divy, you're told that really the

445
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 3: maximum depth you should ever go to breathing a tank

446
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,439
Speaker 3: of air is forty meters, maybe even thirty is recommended,

447
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,479
Speaker 3: and you have a single tank on your back, you've

448
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,120
Speaker 3: got two regulators coming off that, and you always dive

449
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,199
Speaker 3: with your dive buddy right next to you. That's the

450
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 3: sort of mantra don't hold your breath and ascend slowly. Well,

451
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,919
Speaker 3: when you go technical diving, you're looking to extend those limits,

452
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 3: whether it's in depth or duration or into what we

453
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 3: call the overhead environment, which might mean inside a shipwreck

454
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 3: or inside a cave or with an artificial ceiling above you,

455
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 3: which is a decompression ceiling, which means that you can

456
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,919
Speaker 3: no longer go straight to the surface because you've got

457
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 3: to do stops on the way up, otherwise you get

458
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 3: this decompression sickness or the bends, and to do that

459
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 3: it requires a lot more training, It requires a lot

460
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,360
Speaker 3: more time in the water, and it requires specialty equipment

461
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 3: and sometimes other gases that you breathe on as well.

462
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 3: And cave diving, you can train for cave diving the

463
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 3: same way as you can train for some of these

464
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 3: other aspects of technical diving, and a lot of cave

465
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 3: divers sort of gather all these certificates along the way,

466
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 3: so they become proficient in deeper diving with mixed gases,

467
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 3: and they might start using rebreathers, which are a different

468
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,119
Speaker 3: type of diving equipment. They certainly have to learn to

469
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 3: use more than one scuba tank to prolong both their

470
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 3: duration but also their redundancy, because if you're obviously in

471
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 3: a cave and you can't go straight back to the surface,

472
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 3: if one of your pieces of equipment fails, you have

473
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,159
Speaker 3: to have a backup, and you need to back up

474
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,360
Speaker 3: for everything including your lights and your tanks, in your

475
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 3: ear supply and so forth. So in Australia, the easiest

476
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 3: way to learn all this is through the Cave Divers

477
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 3: Association of Australia, and they've got three or four levels

478
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 3: of training. I say three or four because I should know,

479
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 3: but it keeps changing, so I think at the moment

480
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 3: of three, yeah, And it takes maybe four to six

481
00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 3: years probably to go through that training progression quite slow

482
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 3: and arduous, and you need a lot of time underwater

483
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 3: in between each of the levels of the courses. And

484
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 3: because there's so much attention to detail and safety, the

485
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 3: sport is actually incredibly safe and the risk of a

486
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 3: bad accident, which means a death really in this sport

487
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 3: is very very low.

488
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,919
Speaker 2: Indeed, Oh my gosh, I just sort of shiver thinking

489
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 2: about the idea of having a roof over you so

490
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 2: you can't just sort of float up to the surface

491
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 2: if anything happens. And I read quite a few times

492
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 2: in the book you're mentioning that, you know, keeping your

493
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: cool and not panicking in those situations because you can't

494
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 2: just sort of rip off your mask and fly to

495
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: the surface is something that also with your training technically

496
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 2: comes a lot of psychological training to get yourselves ready

497
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 2: for the situations that you're going too. What mentally keeps

498
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 2: you going through say a zero visibility you know, tunnel

499
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 2: that your top and your bottom at both scratching, Like,

500
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 2: to me, that's just so scary and foreign. What makes

501
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 2: you keep going? Is it the view that you're going

502
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 2: to get at the end. Is it the things that

503
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 2: you've seen at the end of some tunnels that makes

504
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 2: you go? Or the fact that no other humans been there?

505
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 2: Is it the adrenaline or the risk? Like what brings

506
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 2: you back every time?

507
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 3: Yeah? I guess it's the motivation. Depends on the motivation

508
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 3: for what you're trying to achieve. You might be in

509
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 3: there for reasons of exploration, or you might be in

510
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 3: there because you're doing some work for some scientists, or

511
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 3: you might be in that situation of a restricted zero

512
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 3: visibility squeeze as we call them, because you've got to

513
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 3: go out that way to get home and that way,

514
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 3: you're pretty motivated. I can tell you to stay calm.

515
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 3: The way we cope with it is purely through familiarity

516
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 3: and training and pattern recognition and muscle memory. It's just

517
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 3: having done this sort of stuff time and time and

518
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 3: time again, in gradually increasing difficulty circumstances. And that starts

519
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 3: right at the very beginning with the training. You don't

520
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 3: actually get to see very much at all during cave

521
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 3: diving courses because you've either got a blindfold on or

522
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 3: someone's ripped your mask off face. So, yeah, the courses,

523
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 3: I mean, the courses are run not in those sort

524
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 3: of environments. They're running open water sinkholes where you can

525
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 3: just pop up to the surface. But mentally, I tell you,

526
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 3: you're in a cave when someone puts this blindfold on

527
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 3: you and then taps you on the shoulder, which means

528
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 3: something bad's about to happen to you, and they pull

529
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 3: your regulator out of your mouth or or you know,

530
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 3: cut the line that you're following to get out of

531
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 3: the cave. All this sort of stuff. Then you have

532
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 3: to fall back on the training that you've been given

533
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 3: and solve the problem. And if you don't solve the problem,

534
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 3: you don't pass. And they give you a thing called

535
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 3: a stress test at the end of the course, which

536
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 3: sort of throws all these things together in quick succession.

537
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 3: And I think some people, I mean most people pass

538
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 3: these things because they're you know, you're pretty comfortable underwater

539
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 3: by the time you start this sort of course. But

540
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 3: some people actually go, you know what, this is not

541
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 3: for me because I don't like the way I'm feeling,

542
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 3: or I don't like the way this makes me feel.

543
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 3: So maybe cave diving is not for me. But for

544
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 3: most people who obviously who pass the courses, they get

545
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 3: a lot of pleasure out of that environment. Yeah, and

546
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 3: actually the more advanced you get, the more gnarly some

547
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 3: of these places are. They can actually be quite fun.

548
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 3: It's like sort of three dimensional problem solving with your

549
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 3: eyes closed and the clock tickings. It's kind of weird,

550
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 3: but it's fun.

551
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 2: I often say that self awareness is the best tool

552
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 2: you could possibly develop because it allows you to really

553
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 2: find what you think is fun and block out what

554
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 2: anyone else might think, because I'm not sure we would

555
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 2: all agree that what you're describing is our idea of fun.

556
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 2: But I guess it only really matters that you think

557
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 2: it's fun. But as we know now, you've been called

558
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: up on a global government level to use your skills

559
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: outside of just pure leisure. Was Thailand the first time

560
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: that happened? Or can you even dive professionally. Had you

561
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 2: ever done rescue missions before?

562
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 3: When you say professional, I guess the answers no, because

563
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 3: never been paid for anything. But I am involved in

564
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 3: volunteer cave rescue in Australia and in about the year

565
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 3: twenty ten I actually started a training course for this

566
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 3: sort of scenario because I recognized that there was a

567
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 3: lack of a capability not only in Australia but worldwide

568
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 3: for rescuing people through an underwater underground body of water.

569
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 3: And you'd think, well, why would you ever need to

570
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 3: do that, But you know, as cave divers and cavers,

571
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 3: we often go to remote caves which we have to

572
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 3: visit by passing through a sump, a water filled section

573
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 3: of the cave. For example, out on the nullaboard plane,

574
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 3: there's a very well known cave called Cocklebitty Cave and

575
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: it's about six kilometers long and most of it is underwater,

576
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 3: but it's interrupted by two rock chambers a third and

577
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 3: two thirds along the way. So to cross these rock

578
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 3: chambers you have to get out of the water and

579
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 3: carry all your diving equipment across this underwater mountain pretty

580
00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 3: much and then back into the water and then head

581
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 3: off again to the next one, and then at four

582
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 3: and a half kilometers in there, you come across the

583
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 3: second one, which is even bigger and longer, and again

584
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 3: have to carry all your equipment across it. And these

585
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 3: places like a huge rock pile, their massive boulders about

586
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 3: forty meters high that you have to climb up and

587
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 3: across the top and then down the other side into

588
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 3: the water. So I was out there with Craig, actually

589
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 3: Craig Challon, and I said, I remember saying to him,

590
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 3: what happens if one of us falls over here and

591
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: breaks your leg? Or how would anyone possibly rescue us?

592
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 3: Because the only way out is back through the water,

593
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 3: back across the other mountain, and then back through the

594
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 3: water to the entrance. That seems like an impossible quest.

595
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 3: So it was kind of selfish self interest that made

596
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 3: me think, well, we need to we need to get organized,

597
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 3: because I don't think anyone could rescue us. So I

598
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 3: went home and we gathered some of the emergency services around,

599
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 3: the police divers and some very experienced cave divers and

600
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 3: so forth, and we ran this little weekend of chit

601
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 3: chat and exercises, scenarios and came away with a kind

602
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 3: of a coarse structure which I've subsequently taught every year

603
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 3: since in South Australia, but also taken it over to

604
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 3: New South Wales and New Zealand. So we'd spend a

605
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 3: fair bit of time by the Thaire Cave Rescue thinking

606
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 3: about how we were going to approach this sort of problem.

607
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,719
Speaker 3: But we never anticipated they would be non English speaking

608
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 3: children at thirteen of them, and in such a difficult cave,

609
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 3: and people who were not cave divers. I mean, they

610
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 3: were quite good cavers, the fact that they've gotten themselves

611
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 3: that far in, but they certainly weren't divers.

612
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 2: Well, Okay, so I'm so excited about this part of

613
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: the interview. And I've already read the book, so I

614
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 2: already know a lot of the detail. But what's so

615
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: interesting to me is that it was all over the news.

616
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: Of course, we all knew the fundamental details of the

617
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 2: thirteen boys getting stuck inside the cave, water coming down,

618
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: they couldn't get back out, and you know, you mentioned

619
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,959
Speaker 2: the whole situation of there was actually no way out,

620
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: accept a way that they couldn't physically get them, And

621
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 2: then we all knew that the world came together. There

622
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: was a lot of difficult to get in them out,

623
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 2: but then they got out, and I think a lot

624
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: of us missed a lot of the subtleties in between

625
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 2: of actually how literally small the chances were of a

626
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: successful removal of the children from that cave were.

627
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: And as I was reading it was just particularly because.

628
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 2: It was written by you, guys, and written in your

629
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: chronological mindset at each stage of the plan, where you

630
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 2: you know, the plan you ended up with is definitely

631
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: not the one that you guys first started with. Just

632
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: talk us through it all from your perspective. How did

633
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: you get there? I know, you guys, you know the

634
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 2: Thai navy seals had had a good go before you

635
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 2: even arrived, before you were called on, and then there

636
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 2: was a lot of diplomacy to get there. But there

637
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: were nine chambers, you know. I think we all thought

638
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: that this cave diving again, misunderstood that it was just

639
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: some boys in a cave. But there were like nine

640
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: different chambers to get in, and you're in your wet

641
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: suits and you're dragging all your stuff, and even just

642
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 2: to get in to find them was a challenge, let alone,

643
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: to then work out how to bring out thirteen of

644
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 2: them who couldn't dive themselves.

645
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: So take us through it.

646
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 3: Well, you've painted a pretty good picture. Actually, I don't

647
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 3: know if I could do much better, but yeah, so,

648
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 3: I mean, there were a couple of interesting things about

649
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 3: this cave that made it different to what we would

650
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 3: consider normally going into ourselves. I would never go into

651
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 3: a cave that is actively flooding, that's the first thing.

652
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 3: So the environment itself was potentially quite hazardous. In fact,

653
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 3: when the first rescuers got on site, they tried to

654
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 3: dive in. When once they got some divers there, like

655
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 3: the Thai navy guys, they tried to dive in there.

656
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 3: It was physically impossible to swim into the flow of

657
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 3: water appearing from the entrance of the cave. So then

658
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: they called these British guys Rick Stanton and John Valanthine

659
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 3: because of some local contacts a guy called vern Unsworth,

660
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 3: a British caver who lived in the area. Rick and

661
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 3: John are extremely proficient, like they are the go to

662
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 3: guys for this sort of thing. There are two of

663
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 3: three or four people in the world who have even

664
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 3: swum an injured person out through a cave underwater like

665
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 3: this before, so they had the experience the runs on

666
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 3: the board, I guess, and also Rick and John in particular,

667
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 3: they're kind of the rock stars of our sport, if

668
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 3: you like. They are very very highly regarded, very tough guys,

669
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: very capable.

670
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: Second only to you and Craig.

671
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 3: Now obviously, well i'd say I would honestly say, we're

672
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 3: very very long second to these guys. They're just in

673
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 3: a class of their own, honestly, and I've been on

674
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 3: expeditions with them, so I can tell your first hand

675
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 3: that they know they continue to do stuff that I'm

676
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 3: just in awe of, just way out of my leg

677
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 3: But anyway, so they arrived on scene and they thought, well,

678
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 3: we'll give this a go. They tried to get into

679
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 3: the cave and they were the same They got spat

680
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,479
Speaker 3: out by the strength of the water. So they were

681
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 3: pretty despondent. They thought, there's no way that anyone's getting

682
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 3: in there to get these kids, even if they are

683
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 3: still alive, and the chances are frankly that they've already drowned.

684
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 3: But they stuck around for a few days. They kept trying,

685
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 3: and the reins eased off, and gradually the water settled

686
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 3: to the point where they could actually start to make

687
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 3: some forward progress, and in what I would say is

688
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 3: the greatest diving achievement of the modern era from what

689
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 3: I've seen, they drag these huge sacks full of climbing

690
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 3: rope with them and laid this rope through the cave

691
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 3: to where the kids were over the next three to

692
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 3: four five days, and that would be extremely difficult and

693
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 3: dangerous dive to do. You can imagine the water is

694
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: like coffee. You cannot see your hand in front of

695
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 3: your face. You're just pushing and swimming, pulling yourself hand

696
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 3: over hand, pointing yourself into where the strongest flow is

697
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 3: coming from. You have no idea where you're going. There's

698
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 3: so many places in a cave like that that you

699
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 3: can get trapped or hooked behind a rock in the flow,

700
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 3: or squashed or whatever. And they would tie off the

701
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 3: rope every fifty meters or so, so they always had

702
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 3: this rope they could follow back out find their way home,

703
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 3: and every now and again they'd pop up into an

704
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 3: air chamber, from which point they could walk or wade

705
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 3: or swim on the surface to the next point where

706
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 3: they had to go back underwater. And as you say that,

707
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 3: repeated nine times and a very very long way, about

708
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 3: two point four kilometers in the end, so it's a

709
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 3: hell of a journey. And then finally popping up into

710
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 3: Chamber nine, whereby they took their masts off and sniffed

711
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 3: the air to see if they could smell any sign

712
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 3: of where if the kids were in there. And Rick

713
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 3: I remember him telling me that when he first smelt

714
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 3: the air in that chamber, he thought he'd swum into

715
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 3: a tomb, because he said the smell was so bad

716
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 3: that he was expecting to find the bodies of these

717
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 3: kids floating in the water. So, you know, huge pressure

718
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 3: on these guys, and that must have been just horrific

719
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 3: swimming through that water waiting to find all these bodies.

720
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 3: When suddenly these lights came on up the hill up

721
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 3: to the right, and one by one, all these boys

722
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 3: started running down the hill. And you've probably seen that

723
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 3: amazing bit of video from John Valanthin's head camera when

724
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 3: he says how many of you are there, and one

725
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 3: of the boys, Adul, who speaks a little bit of English,

726
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 3: says thirt. John says, brilliant, you're all here. Rick, being

727
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 3: a bit of a wise guy says he'd already counted

728
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 3: them by then he knew there was so that's pretty cool.

729
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 3: And of course the whole world suddenly went, yeah, they're saved,

730
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 3: you know, no worries. But anyone who knows anything about

731
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 3: caving and cave diving went, oh my god, what do

732
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 3: we doing now?

733
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's exactly That's it, the fact that

734
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 2: none of us did know anything about caving and cave diving.

735
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 2: As soon as we knew they'd been located, we were like,

736
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 2: it's done, Like you can just sort.

737
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 1: Of helicopter them out somehow, like drill a hole in

738
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: the you know.

739
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: And as I read the book and I realized just

740
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 2: how that almost posed a worse problem for the caving

741
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 2: community and the emergency services, because if there's a dive

742
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 2: that Navy seals can't do, like who is going to

743
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 2: do it? I don't think anyone at that time in

744
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 2: the general public actually understood how technical the problem became,

745
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 2: and then how impossible it almost was. That if men

746
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 2: could barely dive in to find the boys, than how

747
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: to even get them out. And I know there was

748
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: an attempt to drill. There were some attempts to drain

749
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 2: the water out the entrance.

750
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: Elon Musk then.

751
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 2: Got involved with the submarine thing and the tube that

752
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: he was going to try and put through, And I remember,

753
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: like I've obviously voraciously consumed content on this whole thing

754
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 2: since reading your book, because I've been so fascinated looking

755
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 2: at some of the diagrams to scale of the tunnels

756
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 2: between each chamber. It's just mind boggling to think that

757
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 2: they got that far in and that you guys then

758
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 2: had to get every time you went in and out

759
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: was hours, not like twenty minutes or half an hour,

760
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 2: but hours.

761
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was about a three hour trip each way,

762
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 3: which got a little bit faster actually as we got

763
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 3: more practiced in the cave and coming out was slightly

764
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 3: faster because you were going with the flow, I suppose.

765
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was a solid day in the cave.

766
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 3: We're in there for ten or twelve hours each day,

767
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 3: you know, getting to the kids, looking after them, and

768
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 3: then coming back out again. Oh my gosh.

769
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 2: And so very very few of us, I mean, many

770
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: of us have found our purpose and maybe done something

771
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: quite rewarding with it, but very very few of us

772
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 2: have actually been called up as the only person in

773
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 2: the universe who is capable of doing a certain task,

774
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 2: especially not by a government after the Seals have already

775
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 2: not been able to do that.

776
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: So what did that feel like for you?

777
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 3: Well, I was excited, to be honest, because we've done

778
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 3: all this training. I've been you know, the last eight

779
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 3: years or so, I've been running these courses thinking, actually,

780
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 3: we're training for something that will probably never happen. And

781
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 3: I know Craig and I were secretly hoping that we

782
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 3: would get called over to Thailand because you felt like

783
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 3: a fireman who's never put out a fire, you know,

784
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 3: you want to get a gold And it's funny, I've

785
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 3: spoken to quite a few soldiers, especially special forces, people

786
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 3: who are desperately keen to actually test what they've learned

787
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 3: and their training and just and themselves, I suppose, which

788
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 3: is hard to understand and maybe even harder to sympathize with,

789
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: but I sort of understand it. Now, You've got these

790
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 3: skills and you really wonder whether you're up to the

791
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 3: task yourself, and you want to put them to some good.

792
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 3: So yeah, we were keen to go and to say

793
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 3: I'm the only person in the world who could have

794
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 3: done that. It's a slight exaggeration. There are definitely other

795
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 3: cave diving anesthetis, but maybe no one else is silly

796
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 3: enough to get involved. But I just happened to know

797
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 3: Rick Stanton and some of the other people that were

798
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 3: already there, So yeah, I was always in the crosshairs,

799
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: I suppose.

800
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 2: I mean, even still having said that, though, I feel

801
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: like there's still maybe only five or you could count

802
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 2: them on two.

803
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 3: It's just not one hand.

804
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's why.

805
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 2: This fascinates me so much, because that very very unique

806
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 2: intersection between you love the cave diving and your actual

807
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 2: day job. What a sliding doors moment that that suddenly

808
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 2: became so relevant for a whole global community and like

809
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 2: thirteen families. It's just absolutely incredible. And I love how

810
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: you and Craig were actually really honest about from the

811
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 2: very beginning, how you were kind of angling to figure

812
00:38:58,200 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 2: out how you could get over there, because you did,

813
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: we actually have skills that were relevant to offer to

814
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,919
Speaker 2: a very very difficult problem once you actually got there,

815
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 2: and then I mean, everyone who's interested you can read

816
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: in the book there's a lot about even just diplomatically,

817
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: how you get someone there, and then you get them

818
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 2: immunity when they're going to go into something so intense

819
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 2: and high risk. Can you describe the actual tunnel to

820
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 2: us and like what you actually faced, because again I

821
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 2: don't think any of us really understood at the time

822
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 2: that it was hours in, hours out. The only way

823
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 2: really that was left after exploring all the options was

824
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 2: to sedate the children, and then it was on your

825
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 2: shoulders to choose with what how long would that last?

826
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 2: Would they panic if they woke up? You're sedating them,

827
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 2: so who's diving them out? All the other divers had

828
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 2: never injected anyone with anything before, Like my mind, just

829
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 2: none of us in the public heard really because it

830
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 2: was just so technical. But like, how did you and

831
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: Crag go about making some order in the chaos?

832
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were about a million decision points to face,

833
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 3: and we had a very limited time to get through that.

834
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 3: The forecasters were saying that we probably had three to

835
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 3: six days before the monsoon rains would really kick in again.

836
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 3: And we knew from the experience of the first divers

837
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 3: on scene that once that happened, and if the monsoon

838
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 3: came and stayed, then that's it. That's the end of

839
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 3: the rescue. Because the river floods again, no diving can

840
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 3: be achieved, and if we can't drill a hole or

841
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 3: something else, then those kids to have to stay there

842
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 3: until the end of the monsoon, which is conservatively three

843
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 3: to four months, probably more like five by the time

844
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 3: all the water drains away again. And that turned out

845
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 3: to be the reality of that, by the way, so

846
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 3: we really had twenty four hours to make a decision

847
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 3: how we were going to do this. As soon as

848
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 3: I arrived, there was an assumption and actually quite a

849
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 3: lot of pressure on me to agree to this anesthetic plan.

850
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 3: And I had said to Rick on the phone before

851
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 3: I even left Adelaide, that I think that's impossible. It

852
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 3: cannot be done. It's never been tried. I can think

853
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 3: of a million ways those children will die if we

854
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 3: try and do that. But I'm prepared to come over

855
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 3: and maybe as a doctor, I can go and look

856
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 3: after the kids while you guys come up with a

857
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 3: better plan, or as a cave diver, and maybe I

858
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 3: can just give you guys a hand in the rescue

859
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 3: or even in the recovery of the bodies, if that's

860
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 3: what's needed, because the kids still had to come out

861
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 3: one way or the other back to their families. So

862
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 3: on that basis, we went over and as I say,

863
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 3: as soon as we hit the ground, everyone's going, right, well,

864
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 3: how are you going to anesetize and what are you

865
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 3: going to do? I'm not doing it. I'm not even

866
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 3: talking about it until I've looked at what else is

867
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 3: going on, until I've seen the cave for myself. And

868
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 3: of course I'd been racking my brains for the last

869
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 3: twenty four hours anyway, thinking about how I would anesthetize them,

870
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 3: and getting as many opinions from friends and colleagues about

871
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 3: that in the meantime, so I had a bit of

872
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 3: an idea what I was going to do if it

873
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 3: came to that, But for me, that was off the

874
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 3: table until it was absolutely the last resort. And you've

875
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 3: mentioned all the plans around water pumping and draining the

876
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 3: cave and drilling and all these sorts of things. I

877
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 3: had to be sure my own mind that none of

878
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 3: those things were possible. I had to be sure that

879
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 3: it wasn't possible to teach the kids how to know

880
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 3: just the rudimentary diving skills we could safely escort them

881
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 3: out awake. I had to be sure that we couldn't

882
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 3: maybe just stock up the larder with food in there

883
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 3: for them and let them sit there for three months,

884
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,240
Speaker 3: if that was the safer option. And so my first

885
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 3: request or demand really was that I had to dive

886
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 3: the cave myself and have a look at it and

887
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 3: see the kids for myself, see the environment they were in,

888
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 3: see how difficult the cave was, and that would just

889
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 3: help me get my head around all this stuff. And

890
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 3: that's all I had to do, really, to be very

891
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 3: sure in my own mind that there was no way

892
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 3: these kids were coming out any other way than anesthetized,

893
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 3: and that they would not survive more than a few

894
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: weeks in there without food and proper medical care and

895
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 3: so forth. And not only that, but there were four

896
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 3: Thay Navy military people in there with the kids, and

897
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 3: they were in exactly the same boat. If the kids

898
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 3: were not rescued, that meant those four men would also

899
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 3: perish in there. So it was a bit of responsibility

900
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 3: to do something. And I actually still believed, really right

901
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 3: until the last child was out, that this would not work,

902
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 3: and I believed it with all my heart. To be honest,

903
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,399
Speaker 3: I'd still thought there's no chance that this plan can

904
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 3: conceivably be successful, and that any of these kids could survive,

905
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 3: let alone all of them. And the only reason I

906
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 3: managed to push your head with the plan was that

907
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 3: the alternative seemed even worse to me, and that was

908
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,919
Speaker 3: to leave these kids to die very slow and lingering death.

909
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 3: And I couldn't walk away from them with that, you know,

910
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 3: on the card. So we had to try it. And

911
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 3: I thought that, well, at least if the kids die

912
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 3: under our care, they'll be anesthetized and asleep when it happens.

913
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 3: So when you put it in those sort of binary terms,

914
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 3: it seemed like a pretty clear choice. You know, it

915
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 3: was a bad outcome for me if we went with

916
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 3: that plan, but either way, the kids would be dead,

917
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 3: and we forget that.

918
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: You know, I think the images that you get in

919
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: your mind are of them with light and heat and

920
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 2: dry flaws.

921
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: But when I was reading through the fact.

922
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 2: That they like to get food in someone actually has

923
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 2: to dive it in that three hour trek, like there's

924
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 2: no convenient way to actually get stuff to them and

925
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 2: goods to them. Like there's just so many things that

926
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 2: I just couldn't unless you've read the book. And I

927
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,879
Speaker 2: highly recommend everyone does, because showing how you eliminated each

928
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 2: option was actually fascinating to read how technical then the

929
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: ultimate solution did become. And also I'm so fascinated by

930
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 2: self doubt and how psychologically how much of a barrier

931
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 2: that can be to us in our day to day lives,

932
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: but let alone in a situation where the outcome that

933
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 2: you're doubting is actually fatal for people, you know, children.

934
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,399
Speaker 2: I just don't know how you stayed focused for such

935
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: a huge task with so much weight on your shoulders.

936
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 2: And I've heard you speak about how what you actually

937
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 2: had to do with the children to test their masks

938
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 2: and stuff that is, by any normal standards in any

939
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: normal situation, counterintuitive to anything that you would do for

940
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 2: someone's well being, But it's what you had to do.

941
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 2: So talk us through the sort of mental challenge you

942
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: went through in coming to that plan and then actually

943
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 2: executing it, not knowing each day that any of them

944
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 2: had survived until you got out at the end of

945
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 2: the day. Like if anyone doesn't know, doctor Harris was

946
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 2: in Chamber nine with the children all day and the

947
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 2: other divers were diving the children out sedated. So do

948
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 2: you want to maybe explain that process as well, so

949
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 2: that people know how it happened with the other divers

950
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: sort of taking one child.

951
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 3: There are some really interesting moral dilemmas in this whole

952
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 3: story which I've become a bit fascinated with actually, and

953
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 3: how we you know, again sliding door moments. You know,

954
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 3: if things had gone differently, we would have faced some

955
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 3: really awful moral outcomes, I think. But anyway, the actual

956
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 3: process of anesthetizing these children was that I would go

957
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 3: to Chamber nine with the four British divers who were

958
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 3: going to actually physically swim the children out. They would

959
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 3: take charge of one child each. I would call each

960
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 3: child down one at a time. They would already be

961
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 3: dressed in a wetsuit. They'd come down and sit on

962
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 3: my lap in the water. Was at the base of

963
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 3: a very steep slope, so I was in water up

964
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 3: to my lower chest, I guess, and I couldn't really

965
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 3: get much higher out of the water than that, So

966
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 3: I'd cock a knee up and they would sit on

967
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 3: my knee with their top half of their body up

968
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 3: out of the water, and I would show them the

969
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 3: needle and syringe and I would then inject them in

970
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 3: the leg with ketamine, the anesthetic drug, and it would

971
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,439
Speaker 3: take about five minutes for that to work, and they'd

972
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 3: slowly get a bit knotty and then get limp and

973
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 3: become like a rag doll and fall asleep, and so

974
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 3: I'd support their head and their face to make sure

975
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 3: their airway was okay whilst that happened, and then the

976
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 3: British diver would bring over the full face masks that

977
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 3: we were going to use to make sure that their

978
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 3: face and airway stayed dry during the diving extraction, and

979
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 3: then we'd try and put that on the kid's head,

980
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 3: which is actually quite hard to do when the kids

981
00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 3: will floppy like a rag doll. So we had a

982
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 3: few issues with that, and a couple of kids sort

983
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 3: of ended up flopping into the water by accident. And

984
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 3: you know, it's not even funny, but it is, well,

985
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 3: that kind of is, but it wasn't you know, I

986
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 3: agree entirely. I mean, it was just a circus and

987
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 3: we were sort of giggling at times because it was

988
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 3: just so awful and it just seems so hopeless. It's

989
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 3: like a movie of how not to give an anesthetic basically.

990
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 3: But anyway, with us. So we get the mask on,

991
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 3: and we do the straps up so tight because we're

992
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 3: terrified that these masks would get dislodged or bumped with

993
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 3: all the stalic tights and projections in the cave, and

994
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 3: the poor kids ended up with squashed noses and I

995
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 3: think some blood noses and things. But anyway, they were safe, obviously.

996
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 3: And then once the mask was on, then I would

997
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 3: do this first test. And I remember very clearly with

998
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 3: the first boy that we did this too, getting him

999
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 3: and just pushing his face down into the water for

1000
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 3: just a few seconds, and then lifting him up again

1001
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 3: and expecting the mask to be half full of water

1002
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 3: and seeing that, okay, it's still dry, and so try

1003
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 3: again for maybe twenty seconds, and then finally leaving him

1004
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 3: lying face down in the water. And I remember very

1005
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 3: clearly the feeling of this is not what I'm supposed

1006
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 3: to be doing as a doctor. You know, I feel

1007
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 3: like I'm basically ethanazing this child. It's like drowning a

1008
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 3: kitten or something. It just felt it felt awful and

1009
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 3: so so wrong. But the kid be bubbling away happily,

1010
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 3: you know, the bubbles coming out of the face mask

1011
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 3: as they should and so the British dive would then

1012
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 3: go off and get his own equipment ready, and whilst

1013
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 3: he was doing that, I'd get the kid make the

1014
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 3: final preparations by tying the kid's hands behind their back

1015
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 3: with a carabine a clipped to two cable ties, and

1016
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 3: then wrapping their feet together with a bungee cord. And

1017
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 3: the idea of that is to make them into the

1018
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 3: most streamlined kind of dart that we could, so they'd

1019
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 3: be easy to push through the water and through these

1020
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 3: tight restrictions in the cave. Because if their arms were

1021
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 3: flailing about then obviously they would get injured or tangled

1022
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 3: in the ropes or the projections in the cave. But

1023
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 3: more importantly, if they suddenly woke up underwater water, then

1024
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 3: they might reach up and rip their mask off, or

1025
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 3: even more worryingly, do the same to the rescue diver

1026
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 3: and drown the rescue diver. Because you can imagine if

1027
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 3: you're in the tight confines of a very restricted part

1028
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 3: of the tunnel, you can't see anything at all, and

1029
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 3: suddenly this kid starts waking up and thrashing around, you're

1030
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 3: both going to end up dying. There's no way that

1031
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 3: one of these British guys was going to just abandon

1032
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 3: a child. You know, they would do everything in their

1033
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 3: power to try and rescue them, and that would almost

1034
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 3: certainly end in the death of both of them. So,

1035
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 3: you know, the first rule of any rescuers to protect

1036
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 3: the rescuers number one, and then the victims come a

1037
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 3: close second, but it has to be in that order,

1038
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 3: because without the rescuers, you can't do anything for the

1039
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 3: other boys. Yeah.

1040
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely, What were the in the sort of Gnarlia Settler

1041
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 2: that you caught it nally before the narliest section of

1042
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: the dive?

1043
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: Like how tight are we talking? And how rough?

1044
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 2: Like I think we have this idea of like a

1045
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 2: tube that's smooth, but I'm sure it actually wasn't like.

1046
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 3: That at all. Yeah, the type parts of the cave

1047
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 3: were different configurations. Most of them were quite wide but

1048
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 3: very flat, so maybe I don't know, you know, this

1049
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 3: sort of height you could fit your head its head

1050
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 3: and chest through it and then you would be scraping

1051
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 3: with your back and your chest and you would have

1052
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 3: to wriggle, you know, to push yourself through them. So

1053
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 3: they were pretty tight. Like if I was any bigger,

1054
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 3: I would struggle Fortunately the floor of the cave was mud,

1055
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 3: so that actually works in your favor because you can

1056
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 3: scrape a bit of a trench through, and the more

1057
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 3: times people go through, the easier it gets.

1058
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: So you'd have to push the child through first, or

1059
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: you'd go through and then pull them.

1060
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, or maybe have them alongside you. But sometimes there

1061
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 3: was only one spot in that wide what we call

1062
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 3: a flattener, only one spot where you could fit through,

1063
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 3: and the rope wouldn't necessarily follow that part of the cave,

1064
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,919
Speaker 3: of course, so the rope might be out of arm's length,

1065
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 3: and then you'd have to feel out with your other

1066
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 3: arm to find where that hole is. And as I say,

1067
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 3: it's like a blind three dimensional problem solving exercise, which

1068
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,399
Speaker 3: is fine when you're by yourself and you've got time

1069
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 3: on your side, but when you've got someone else to

1070
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 3: worry about, and knowing that the anesthetic will be wearing

1071
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 3: off and you've got to keep moving, the kids getting

1072
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 3: colder every minute they're in there. There's a lot of

1073
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 3: pressure on these British guys to do this, and a

1074
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 3: huge amount of mental strain and stress on them.

1075
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And they had to inject the kids a

1076
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 2: couple of times to make it last, didn't they? Because

1077
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 2: the extraction was so long, the sedatives wouldn't actually last

1078
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 2: long enough, would they.

1079
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, ketamine is a drug that we use quite

1080
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 3: a lot in ana seesure and especially in emergency situations

1081
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 3: because it's very forgiving in many ways. But giving it

1082
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 3: as an intramuscular injection is a bit unusual, not unheard of,

1083
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 3: but a bit unusual. But giving it repeated doses as

1084
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 3: an intramuscular injection is just about unheard of. And so

1085
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,319
Speaker 3: I had no idea really how much to give, how

1086
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 3: often it would need to be given. There's really no

1087
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 3: recipe for what we did, so I just had to

1088
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 3: best guess it, really, and just as best we could

1089
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 3: as we went along. Now, of course, these other divers

1090
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 3: aren't medical people, and so they took on an enormous responsibility.

1091
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 3: I mean, they never would have looked after an unconscious

1092
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 3: person on the surface, let alone underwater when you can't

1093
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,879
Speaker 3: see the patient. So, you know, imagine if I asked

1094
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 3: you to do this right now in a you know,

1095
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 3: if I turn the lights out and said, right, there's

1096
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,800
Speaker 3: an unconscious person there, just look after them for three hours,

1097
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 3: keep them alive and if they start to wriggle, inject

1098
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 3: them in the leg. They'll give you one little torch.

1099
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 3: It can shine on them briefly while you do the injection.

1100
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: Let alone, if we were in a tunnel.

1101
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 3: It was a big ask on these British guys, which

1102
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 3: says a lot about the quality of these blokes, which

1103
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 3: is why I was alluding to their excellent natures early on.

1104
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 2: You know, one thing I did love about reading the

1105
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 2: book was how much of you guys and the other

1106
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 2: personalities you injected into the story as well. Like it was,

1107
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 2: it's a terrible, overwhelming, all consuming experience, but you have

1108
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 2: to be able to laugh at the end of the day,

1109
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 2: like you guys have to be there to make each

1110
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 2: other sane through If a child like you know, slips

1111
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 2: and slides on their wetsuit down into the water, like

1112
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 2: you have to laugh because what else can you do.

1113
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: And I love that you all had banter with each

1114
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: other and we're each other.

1115
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,800
Speaker 3: A hard time. That's very much. That's very much for

1116
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 3: our benefit, that kind of black humor, I think, to

1117
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 3: keep the positivity to keep going back another day and

1118
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 3: another day after that. You know, you had to jolly

1119
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 3: yourself up a bit with some kind of technique.

1120
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1121
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: And why I love going through these kind of events

1122
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: is that in hindsight, of course it all worked out.

1123
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,320
Speaker 2: We know that there was a happy ending, but you

1124
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 2: didn't know that at the time. Like each day when

1125
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 2: you came out, yes, you got one day closer, but

1126
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 2: there was another whole twelve to fifteen hours twice and

1127
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 2: then another time for you to get through. So when

1128
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 2: you first came out and realized it had worked for

1129
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,399
Speaker 2: four of them, did you have any time to think

1130
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 2: or celebrate that before you were like back the next

1131
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 2: day or no?

1132
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 3: Not really. We had to go straight into debriefing meetings

1133
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 3: as soon as we got out of the cave after

1134
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 3: that first rescue day, And obviously we found out the

1135
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 3: first four boys had survived, which was great news. But

1136
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,359
Speaker 3: actually that night I was more frightened, I think than

1137
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,359
Speaker 3: any other time during the rescue. I sort of got

1138
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 3: it into my head that I don't know how we

1139
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 3: got away with day one, but tomorrow this is definitely

1140
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 3: going to all come unraveled, and we're going to be

1141
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 3: found out to be the fraudsters that I know we are.

1142
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 3: You know, I just was so convinced this plan couldn't work.

1143
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 3: And so that night, you know, I virtually had no sleep.

1144
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 3: It was raining all night, so I was listening to

1145
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 3: the rain on the roof of the hotel, thinking we

1146
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 3: might not even be getting back in to see that

1147
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 3: boys again. And you know, that was really tough each

1148
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 3: day saying goodbye to the remaining boys and those military guys,

1149
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 3: thinking if it rains tonight, you guys are dead. We're

1150
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 3: going back to our hotel. We might never see you again.

1151
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 3: I felt very guilty leaving each day, I have to say,

1152
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 3: and I.

1153
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 2: Can't imagine the exhaustion you would have had as well,

1154
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 2: just with the moral and ethical and physical questions that

1155
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 2: are going through your head the whole entire time. But

1156
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 2: also I think we trauma is kind of not easy

1157
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 2: to deal with, of course, but if you can rip

1158
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 2: a band aid, there's something to that. Whereas you guys

1159
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 2: had to just sit there for fifteen hours and wait,

1160
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 2: there was no just push the boy through the tubernis

1161
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 2: out the other side. It was such a long process

1162
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 2: of you waiting with no answers.

1163
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 3: And yeah, I found the swim out of the cave

1164
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 3: each day quite a good opportunity to kind of try

1165
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 3: and relax and just say, okay, well, look I'm in

1166
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 3: a cave, I'm diving. This is what I enjoyed doing.

1167
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 3: I'll just follow this rope out And that wasn't technically

1168
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 3: too terrible for us, and going with the flow of

1169
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 3: the water was actually quite relaxing. So I found those

1170
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:35,919
Speaker 3: swims out with my own thoughts, because there's no point

1171
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,399
Speaker 3: diving with anyone else in those conditions. They just get

1172
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 3: in your way, so you're completely by yourself for those

1173
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 3: few hours swimming out, and I found that actually quite

1174
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 3: relaxing strangely, and helped me like a deep yeah, get

1175
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 3: some mental energy back, thinking about okay, what do we do?

1176
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 3: What could we do better? I wonder if any of

1177
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 3: them are alive, but we'll soon find out, I suppose.

1178
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 2: So. One of the things that stood out so much

1179
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,760
Speaker 2: as well is just the rellis of those young boys,

1180
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 2: like they were so young, some of them, but every

1181
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 2: time you would come out of the water, my heart

1182
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:10,320
Speaker 2: would just smile reading about how they would greet you

1183
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 2: with such happy, positive and optimistic smiles. And the coach

1184
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 2: was so careful to look after their well being. And

1185
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 2: then the Navy Seals agreed to just sit with them

1186
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:20,879
Speaker 2: until you know, they weren't leaving until the boys left.

1187
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 1: What were some of your biggest.

1188
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 2: Takeaways on sort of humanity and the fact that the

1189
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 2: global community can come together to pull something like this off.

1190
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 2: I imagine it kind of changed your life in how

1191
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 2: you see life and people and connection and community.

1192
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, you've summed it up just there. I mean to

1193
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 3: arrive on this scene with people from every country you

1194
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 3: can imagine being represented in some form, whether it's their

1195
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 3: military or some volunteers, or some equipment being there on

1196
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 3: site that's been donated or sent over. Plus the thousands

1197
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 3: and thousands of tied people on site, from people cooking

1198
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 3: food for all the volunteers were handing out clothing or

1199
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 3: rubber boots or hats or umbrellas or you name it.

1200
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 3: You could get a free haircut there outside the cave

1201
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 3: entrance if you had the time. Unfortunately, there's some beautiful

1202
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 3: typhood being cooked there and these huge woks, but we

1203
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 3: didn't have time to even see any of that. It

1204
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 3: was like a sideshow ali at the agricultural shows. It's

1205
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 3: just people with all these stools and you know, this

1206
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 3: sort of happy atmosphere it was an amazing place. I

1207
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 3: only got stall. It was like that. It was I

1208
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 3: only got to very briefly walk around at once and

1209
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 3: just to see what was going on. But it was

1210
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 3: so colorful and vibrant, you know. But yeah, and then

1211
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 3: it was back into the meetings or planning or you know,

1212
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 3: sorting out equipment and stuff. But it was kind of

1213
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 3: a cool atmosphere there, and overwhelmingly this feeling of community

1214
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 3: that all these people were there for one reason, one

1215
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 3: reason only. It was extraordinary thing to be a part of. Actually,

1216
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 3: it was a real privilege.

1217
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 2: I love that you guys have maintained your connection with

1218
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 2: the boys as well, and that you went back to

1219
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 2: Thailand to see quite a few of them.

1220
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 3: I think I think we saw eight of them, including

1221
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 3: the coach, and that was amazing obviously to see how

1222
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 3: they're doing and to meet some of their parents, because

1223
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 3: we never even saw the parents while we were over

1224
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 3: there the first time, which brings me to one of

1225
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 3: those moral dilemmas, you know, about informed consent, both for

1226
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 3: the boys and for their parents. And I'm kind of

1227
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 3: glad I never got to talk to the parents beforehand,

1228
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 3: because what possible way could I frame that conversation with them.

1229
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 3: You know, here's a plan. I think it's got one

1230
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 3: hundred percent failure rate. But we're but but it seems

1231
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 3: better than leaving them to die of illness, starvation, or exposure.

1232
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 3: What do you want me to do? I mean, how

1233
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 3: could you ask a parent to make that decision? It's impossible,

1234
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 3: I think.

1235
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:41,600
Speaker 1: But I love that you asked the boys, though.

1236
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 3: Well, we told them what the plan was. I don't

1237
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 3: know whether we were really seeking their permission. But having

1238
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 3: said that, you know, the last thing I would have

1239
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 3: wanted to do, in fact, I don't think I could

1240
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 3: have done, would be to drag a child, kicking and screaming,

1241
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 3: to the water's edge, plunge a needle into him, and

1242
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 3: then basically a soul him in that way. I couldn't

1243
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 3: have done that, So I had to give them sufficient

1244
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 3: confidence such that they would comply. I guess for my

1245
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 3: own sake. I mean, I couldn't. You couldn't do that

1246
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 3: to a child if they were resisting. It was hard

1247
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 3: enough to do it with someone who was being nice

1248
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 3: to you.

1249
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it seemed like they all had really lovely

1250
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 2: memories of your anethetist banter and just sort of slowly,

1251
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 2: you know, going off into another world. How you guys

1252
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 2: talk to kind of fill the space and make them

1253
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 2: feel really comfortable. I was reading that some of the

1254
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 2: boys when you asked what they remember, they were like, doctor, brigard,

1255
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:34,919
Speaker 2: job job job, job, job, job.

1256
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 1: That's cute.

1257
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, they tease. They did tease me a bit when

1258
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 3: we finally met up with them that, oh hello, hello,

1259
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 3: olch you know.

1260
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 1: Job job next.

1261
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 2: Did you have much dead time while you were waiting

1262
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 2: between sending the boys off or you were just sitting

1263
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 2: in the cave waiting.

1264
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 3: I tried to send them out at about forty five

1265
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 3: minute intervals because we had to give the dive downstream

1266
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 3: in the other chambers time to process them and send

1267
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 3: them on their way and red anesthetize them and sometimes

1268
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 3: unpack them and repackage them in their gear to move

1269
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 3: them through some of the dry chambers and things. So

1270
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 3: I didn't want to overwhelm those guys, so we tried

1271
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 3: to space them out. But it seemed to work out

1272
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 3: at forty five minutes to an hour, so there wasn't

1273
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 3: a lot of time to relax in between. I mean,

1274
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 3: we gradually we're getting colder and colder during the day.

1275
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 3: Of course, we're in the water for all of that time,

1276
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 3: and the water was twenty three degrees, but we only

1277
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 3: had had thin tropical wetsuits on, so it was pretty shivery.

1278
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 3: By the end of the last boys, I'm pretty ready

1279
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 3: to get going as soon as the last kid's done.

1280
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Well, I just I could talk to

1281
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: you about this forever. It is so so fascinating to me.

1282
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 2: But I obviously appreciate this is probably not the first

1283
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 2: time you've talked about it in this level of detail.

1284
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 3: No, it's become a bit of a thing, but which

1285
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 3: has changed my life, you know, honestly in so many

1286
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 3: ways that I never expected when I attended this rescue.

1287
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 3: I can honest say that Craig and I went over

1288
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 3: there we looked at it as a job that we

1289
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 3: could get involved with, that we could contribute to, and

1290
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 3: it was a bit of an adventure. But we had

1291
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 3: no understanding of the size of the story and no

1292
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 3: expectation that that was the case. And I was quite

1293
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 3: appalled actually when I got home and found that there

1294
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 3: was all this media attention and focus on us, I

1295
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 3: just really well, I actually did quite a good job

1296
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 3: at hiding from all the media for at least sort

1297
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 3: of two to three months, and it was only because

1298
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 3: of the South Australian of the Year and Western Australian

1299
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 3: of the Year awards that we received that we started

1300
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 3: to feel like we couldn't really hide from it much

1301
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 3: longer because it would seem a bit rude if we've

1302
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 3: been giving it an award and we wouldn't even talk

1303
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 3: about it, So we kind of had to roll over

1304
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 3: in the end.

1305
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's also another interesting thing, and that

1306
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 2: was my next question for you. Was after an event

1307
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 2: like that, one of the other books that I have

1308
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 2: read many many times is called Emergency Sex, and it's

1309
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 2: got nothing to do with sex. It's just obviously guess

1310
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 2: your attention out four different UN workers who go on

1311
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 2: these expeditions rescue missions in all the major war zones

1312
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 2: of sort of the last twenty years, Rwanda, Cambodia, Somalia,

1313
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 2: and how they just spend their whole trip trying to

1314
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 2: get to safety, and then they get to safety and

1315
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 2: they can't deal with normal life, so they find another

1316
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 2: war zone and they all keep finding each other thinking.

1317
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 1: What are you doing back here? We just got you

1318
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,600
Speaker 1: home safely? Was it hard for you then to go back.

1319
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 2: To normalcy after, you know, back to Little Adelaide, after

1320
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 2: this global scale operation and that adrenaline.

1321
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 3: It wasn't really because, as I said, I just put it.

1322
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 3: I was able to put it in the workbox, to

1323
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 3: say this is you know, this kid's my next patient. Okay,

1324
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 3: this is a slightly strange operating theater and the risks

1325
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 3: are a bit higher than usual for one of my

1326
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 3: awn anesthetics. But nonetheless, that's the way I compartmentalized it

1327
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 3: end my brain and the way I dealt with it,

1328
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 3: I think. So when I came home, I thought, well,

1329
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 3: I'll probably I might give myself a long weekend and

1330
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 3: then back to work. And you know, and that's the

1331
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 3: way I was to work. Well, I got home on

1332
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 3: the Friday night, and I thought, I'll take Monday off,

1333
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:03,160
Speaker 3: treat myself to a long weekend, and then go back

1334
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 3: to work on Tuesday. Stop it. And you know, that's

1335
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 3: just the way I was thinking about it all. I

1336
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 3: didn't think it was that big a deal, honestly, and

1337
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:13,440
Speaker 3: I thought we'll probably get a nice letter from you know,

1338
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 3: maybe the premiere or something saying good job.

1339
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, you but the Australians.

1340
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 3: It just went mental. Well yeah, and all of that

1341
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 3: was completely unexpected.

1342
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 1: But very very well deserved.

1343
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 2: I've been shared Australians of the Year last year. You

1344
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 2: both Order of Australian Metal. You're an OAM now, is

1345
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 2: that right?

1346
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 1: That's right, you're a royal. I kind of remember what

1347
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 1: the tie some super long title, but it's very fancy.

1348
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 3: It's very cool. It is very nice and you get

1349
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 3: a sash, so that's good.

1350
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:41,439
Speaker 1: I've read about the sash.

1351
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 2: I was like, that is so regal and tie of

1352
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 2: them to do. And then the aneth Tist British organization

1353
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 2: thing that was named after the guy who did all the.

1354
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 3: Test about yes, the Edgar Pesk Citation, which is my

1355
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 3: favorite award of all of them actually because Edgar Pesk

1356
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 3: was a physiologist in the Second World War who decided

1357
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 3: he was asked to prove that the May West life

1358
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 3: jackets would support an emmon who had gone down in

1359
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:08,880
Speaker 3: the English Channel if he was unconscious, to prove that

1360
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 3: these life jackets would keep his head out of the water.

1361
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:12,840
Speaker 3: So he said, well, the only way to prove that

1362
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 3: is to have someone anesthetized in a pool wearing the

1363
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 3: life jacket, and of course I can't ask anyone to

1364
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 3: do that, so I'll have to get myself anesthetized and

1365
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 3: get in the pool. So he is the first and

1366
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 3: only person that I'm aware of prior to this rescue

1367
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 3: who has been anesthetized and then intentionally put in water,

1368
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 3: and so he has always been a hero of mine,

1369
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 3: and that kind of has come the full circle that

1370
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 3: I ended up getting that award, which was really nice.

1371
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you are now a hero to so many. Honestly,

1372
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:43,720
Speaker 2: I know, I love how humble you both are about

1373
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:45,440
Speaker 2: the whole thing, and the way you write about it

1374
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 2: is just as if it's like I mean, you express

1375
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 2: the grandiosity of it and the challenge, but in a

1376
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 2: way that makes you guys seem like just so humble

1377
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 2: about your role in the whole thing, even though you

1378
01:04:58,640 --> 01:04:59,880
Speaker 2: are actual Australian hero.

1379
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 3: Well, I think cave divers like problem solving, and all

1380
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 3: the guys there, the British and the European cave dives,

1381
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 3: they're all the same. They just looked on this as

1382
01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 3: a gigantic puzzle to somehow solve and to work out

1383
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:14,880
Speaker 3: how best to do it. And fortunately for us it

1384
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 3: seemed to work. I still don't really understand how, but

1385
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 3: I'm happy that.

1386
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 1: You're happy to go with it.

1387
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:23,840
Speaker 2: So the final section is called playta And I don't

1388
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 2: imagine that you actually have any time for any real

1389
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 2: pursuits outside of being an actual doctor and an ethetist

1390
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 2: as well as a cave diver and now in Australian

1391
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 2: of the Year.

1392
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 1: But what do you now do for fun?

1393
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 2: Is there anything when you unwrap Harry doctor, Harry, cave diver,

1394
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 2: Harry all the roles that you wear and Harry dad

1395
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 2: and Harry family man, like, is there anything that you

1396
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 2: do that's.

1397
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 1: Just for your own joy?

1398
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:51,640
Speaker 3: Do you have well Flix, I have to see. Oh yeah,

1399
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 3: I do like on Netflix. I mean, I'm a very

1400
01:05:54,920 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 3: keen photographer and underwater videographer. So my secret path is

1401
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 3: that i want to make documentaries about our adventures. And

1402
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 3: I've actually been well, I've been trying for about ten years,

1403
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 3: but of course had many many rejection slips. But the

1404
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,680
Speaker 3: great thing about this adventure is that it's opened a

1405
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 3: few doors for me in that regard, And until COVID started,

1406
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 3: things were actually starting to progress quite well with a

1407
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:23,720
Speaker 3: concept for a documentary series. So I'm that's still on

1408
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:26,240
Speaker 3: the table, but has just had to be put to

1409
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 3: bed for a little while until the nasty virus goes away.

1410
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 3: The other exciting thing that I've just started is I

1411
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:34,960
Speaker 3: had my first fora into motor sport yesterday. I've bought

1412
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:38,080
Speaker 3: an old I've bought an Old nineteen sixty eight mini,

1413
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 3: and yesterday I did my first hill climb event in it.

1414
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 3: Absolutely loved it.

1415
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 1: Oh that's so much fun. See.

1416
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 2: I love again that between doctoring and water related things,

1417
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 2: you have another hobby.

1418
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:53,160
Speaker 1: This is amazing.

1419
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 3: Well, my wife, actually I meously does worry about my

1420
01:06:57,360 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 3: cave diving, obviously, especially when I go away out of

1421
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:03,920
Speaker 3: out of range on some major expeditions. She does worry

1422
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 3: a bit, and strangely, yesterday she came to this track

1423
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:09,439
Speaker 3: to watch me, you know, just in case I've rolled

1424
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 3: the car or did something crazy. She said, you know,

1425
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 3: this is so much better than cave do I'm not

1426
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 3: worried about you at all doing this. You compare it

1427
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 3: because I can see you. I can see you in

1428
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:19,640
Speaker 3: this funny old little car. It doesn't seem to go

1429
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 3: very fast.

1430
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 2: And with the documentaries, I saw that James Cameron wrote

1431
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 2: your forward, so I feel like you've got more than

1432
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:28,440
Speaker 2: a good foot in the.

1433
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 1: Door in that department.

1434
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 3: Yes, it was quite a nice I'd worked with him

1435
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,280
Speaker 3: on a couple of little things. Well, he was working

1436
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 3: on some very big things. I had very minor roles

1437
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,120
Speaker 3: in them. But so I had met him before because

1438
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:45,040
Speaker 3: he's actually a very passionate ocean explorer himself and he

1439
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 3: loves everything about diving. So he was very generous to

1440
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 3: actually give me a call after the rescue and say

1441
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:54,880
Speaker 3: well done, and gave me some advice about the media

1442
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 3: and so forth, and so I thought, well, maybe I

1443
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 3: could just ask a favor back to him and asked

1444
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:02,760
Speaker 3: him to write the forward. And then I've just interviewed

1445
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:06,640
Speaker 3: him for my podcast. So no, so that is super exciting.

1446
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

1447
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 2: Well again, Okay, Also, guys, he's also managed to squeeze

1448
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 2: in a podcast on the side. I don't know how,

1449
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:15,160
Speaker 2: but this is absolutely amazing. Is that what your next

1450
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:16,720
Speaker 2: big goal is? Documentaries?

1451
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 1: Podcast?

1452
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:21,120
Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, I am quite enjoying all the media side

1453
01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 3: of stuff now, and doing a podcast has been a

1454
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:27,360
Speaker 3: real challenge. Yeah. I'm quite a nervous interviewer. I don't

1455
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 3: like the way I talk, of course, and like nobody does.

1456
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:32,479
Speaker 3: And I I'm an R all the time, but I

1457
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:34,400
Speaker 3: think it's really good for you to do stuff like

1458
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:36,800
Speaker 3: this too. If you think you're no good at something,

1459
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 3: the best way to fix it is to just do it.

1460
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:42,599
Speaker 3: And so in the COVID madness, so I was sitting

1461
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 3: around thinking, Ah, I think I'll just do a podcast,

1462
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:46,800
Speaker 3: see how that goes. And had I known how much

1463
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,439
Speaker 3: work it was, Sarah, as you probably already could have

1464
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:51,720
Speaker 3: told me, maybe I wouldn't have rushed into it. But

1465
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:53,479
Speaker 3: I've done twelve. Now can I give it a plug?

1466
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:54,719
Speaker 3: It's called Real Risk.

1467
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 1: Oh please do.

1468
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:59,680
Speaker 3: I basically talk to adventurers about risk taking and how

1469
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 3: they perceive risks and things and how they manage them.

1470
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 2: Oh. I actually, I'm just going to binge. I'm not

1471
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 2: going to sleep tonight. This is all I'm going to

1472
01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:06,640
Speaker 2: listen to.

1473
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 3: Start with number twelve. James Cameron.

1474
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:10,599
Speaker 1: Oh he is the most recent one.

1475
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh wonderful?

1476
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:15,040
Speaker 2: Is that? One of the weirdest things that happened afterwards?

1477
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:16,519
Speaker 2: Like who else called you that you were just like,

1478
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:17,040
Speaker 2: how do you know?

1479
01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 3: OK? The weirdest thing that well, not quite the weirdest

1480
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 3: thing that happened was meeting Harry and Meghan at Admiral

1481
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:25,000
Speaker 3: t House in Sydney.

1482
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:26,560
Speaker 1: Photo is it?

1483
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 3: There is? Craig and I are just having a stubby

1484
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:31,960
Speaker 3: and we're chadding to Harry and Meghan. There we are,

1485
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 3: and they're just like, oh, hi guys, how are.

1486
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:36,880
Speaker 1: How you doing?

1487
01:09:37,200 --> 01:09:39,599
Speaker 3: Harry said, I love afternoon tea in Australia. You get

1488
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:39,960
Speaker 3: a beer.

1489
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, what an incredible journey. I just have

1490
01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 2: so much admiration for you. Very very last question. I'm

1491
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:48,920
Speaker 2: so grateful for your time, but I would love to

1492
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:51,880
Speaker 2: know three interesting things about you that don't normally come

1493
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:53,679
Speaker 2: up in interviews because I feel like you get interviewed

1494
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:55,600
Speaker 2: a lot, but people would ask a lot of the

1495
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:59,000
Speaker 2: same questions. So what stuff that doesn't come up that's

1496
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 2: interesting about you? And you can't use the bird thing

1497
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:02,400
Speaker 2: because I already said.

1498
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 3: That all right, Well, I think the motorsport's a new

1499
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 3: thing because that only started yesterday.

1500
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exclusive content everything.

1501
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:16,280
Speaker 3: And I don't I'm at least what would she say? Well,

1502
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 3: snore like yeah, snore like a train, like a train.

1503
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:22,560
Speaker 3: In fact, last night she said, do you remember me

1504
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:25,200
Speaker 3: waking you up and poking you and telling you to

1505
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:26,760
Speaker 3: roll over? Because I thought you were just about to

1506
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:29,720
Speaker 3: stop breathing. I do love my food, and so I

1507
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:32,400
Speaker 3: tend to get a bit fat if I'm not if

1508
01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:36,679
Speaker 3: I haven't got a project. Sometimes I get into running,

1509
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:39,840
Speaker 3: and I got up to like thirty three k's run

1510
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 3: like I've just got OCD. I think, whatever I do,

1511
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 3: I'll throw myself into it, and then I suddenly get

1512
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 3: sick of it and I'll never run again. And that's

1513
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:50,720
Speaker 3: what that's the phase I'm in right now. We're not

1514
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:51,479
Speaker 3: running phase.

1515
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:54,759
Speaker 1: I love how they're in Craigs chapters.

1516
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:57,040
Speaker 2: There's a few little subtle digs that you're getting back

1517
01:10:57,040 --> 01:10:59,719
Speaker 2: into your wet suit and oh, I can tell you guys.

1518
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:00,000
Speaker 1: Are good mate.

1519
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:01,200
Speaker 3: It's a long running thing.

1520
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:06,320
Speaker 1: Husbands. And since I love quotes so much, what's your

1521
01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 1: favorite quote?

1522
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:10,400
Speaker 3: Well, it's a complete cliche, but to me it's become

1523
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:14,000
Speaker 3: more and more obvious that it's true. And that is

1524
01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 3: what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and that's perfect

1525
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:20,519
Speaker 3: for you. I think. As Australian of the Year, the

1526
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 3: message I wanted to get out was to young parents

1527
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:26,600
Speaker 3: and to kids that it's very important to get outside,

1528
01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:30,599
Speaker 3: have some adventures, take a few sensible risks, get off

1529
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:34,599
Speaker 3: your screens and explore your local environment, whether that's jumping

1530
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:36,439
Speaker 3: on your bike with your best friend and riding up

1531
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:38,880
Speaker 3: to the park and damming up the creek and catching

1532
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:41,559
Speaker 3: frogs and all that stuff that kids should be doing

1533
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 3: instead of playing on their computers, and to the parents

1534
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:48,040
Speaker 3: to let them go and ride their bikes around. They're

1535
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:49,920
Speaker 3: not going to get snatched by a predator, They're not

1536
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:53,600
Speaker 3: properly going to get hit by a car. And you know,

1537
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:55,680
Speaker 3: I'm a parent, and I know it's very hard and

1538
01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 3: there are risks out there. But without risk taking, we

1539
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:03,560
Speaker 3: don't become resilient, we don't become confident. We have to

1540
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:07,080
Speaker 3: do things that challenges and can be hard or uncomfortable,

1541
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:09,960
Speaker 3: and that will make us overall much better people. So

1542
01:12:10,439 --> 01:12:13,000
Speaker 3: wrapping kids up in cotton wool and hovering around them,

1543
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 3: not letting them even get a scratch, actually will make

1544
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:17,920
Speaker 3: them much worse off in the long run.

1545
01:12:18,280 --> 01:12:21,240
Speaker 2: I loved reading that about your acceptance speech, and I

1546
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:23,800
Speaker 2: think it had really strong parallels for me with the

1547
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:27,960
Speaker 2: trip that started my leaving corporate to move into business

1548
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 2: was to a country town in Rwanda in Africa, and

1549
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,120
Speaker 2: it was the first time I'd ever thought about the

1550
01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 2: idea of happiness and separated that from success, because the

1551
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 2: children I saw there were happier than any child I'd

1552
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:43,639
Speaker 2: seen in the West, playing with leaves for twelve hours

1553
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:45,920
Speaker 2: a day. And I saw that in the way that

1554
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:49,360
Speaker 2: the Thaie children were not released to the media straightaway,

1555
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 2: kept together and sent on a meditation retreat together without

1556
01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:56,160
Speaker 2: their phones, without social media, and I just thought that's

1557
01:12:56,280 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 2: such a valuable takeaway for all parents that you know,

1558
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:03,559
Speaker 2: they don't need to be on their phones, they don't

1559
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 2: need to be on screens, like there's a lot of

1560
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:07,960
Speaker 2: happiness outside of that world that we need to allow

1561
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:09,400
Speaker 2: children to explore. You know.

1562
01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:11,240
Speaker 3: The other thing that really impressed me about the Thai

1563
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:14,519
Speaker 3: people was that, and I predicted that this at the time,

1564
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:16,840
Speaker 3: that as soon as the first comments I read in

1565
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:20,560
Speaker 3: the Western media were things like that coach, how irresponsible

1566
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:23,280
Speaker 3: for him to take those kids into the cave in Thailand,

1567
01:13:23,360 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 3: it was thank goodness, the coach is in there to

1568
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:28,280
Speaker 3: look after those boys. We love and support the coach.

1569
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 3: It's a totally different mindset and to me, that says

1570
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:35,280
Speaker 3: a lot about us and them. Yeah, and speaks to

1571
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:38,439
Speaker 3: the resilience of the kids as well. You know, whether

1572
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:41,320
Speaker 3: it's their Buddhist faith or the fact that they're just

1573
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 3: country kids who are kind of rough and tumble kind

1574
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:47,160
Speaker 3: of guys, or whether it's that ethos that you find

1575
01:13:47,240 --> 01:13:50,560
Speaker 3: in Thai culture of forgive and forget and move on.

1576
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:53,000
Speaker 3: Those kids are the real heroes of this story. And

1577
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 3: the four Thai Navy seals, you know, amazing people, and

1578
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:56,840
Speaker 3: the fact that they.

1579
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:59,240
Speaker 2: Chose the order that they all came out with. I thought,

1580
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:02,240
Speaker 2: actually my first thought was if any of us when

1581
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:04,519
Speaker 2: we were kids were told to like, we would have

1582
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:06,720
Speaker 2: eaten each other. There's absolutely no way we would have

1583
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:10,599
Speaker 2: come out in an orderly fashion and cooperated enough to say,

1584
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:12,960
Speaker 2: here's our neat order. We're all going to sit here

1585
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:13,880
Speaker 2: while the other four leave.

1586
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:14,920
Speaker 1: Not a chance.

1587
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:17,240
Speaker 3: Would you be fighting to go first or last?

1588
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:18,080
Speaker 1: I haven't.

1589
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:23,160
Speaker 3: I'd go somewhere in the middle. Once that anius has

1590
01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:25,479
Speaker 3: got the technique sorted out, I'd.

1591
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:27,680
Speaker 2: Pick like the like one who I thought looked like

1592
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:30,800
Speaker 2: the most athletic swimmer, and be like that one him.

1593
01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:36,120
Speaker 2: Thank you so so much, doctor Richard Harry, doctor Harris,

1594
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:40,360
Speaker 2: for everything you've done, obviously for the nation, for the community,

1595
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 2: and for all the listeners You've been.

1596
01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:43,120
Speaker 1: Such an inspiration.

1597
01:14:43,280 --> 01:14:44,400
Speaker 3: Oh thanks Sarah. Cheers.

1598
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 2: Okay, my mind is still absolutely blown by what a

1599
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 2: mammoth task it was to save those thirteen boys, and

1600
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:55,840
Speaker 2: also by how humble Harry still is about his role

1601
01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:58,240
Speaker 2: in the whole thing. I don't know about you, but

1602
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:01,559
Speaker 2: I find the pulling of global talents, the technical nature

1603
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:06,480
Speaker 2: of certain skill sets, and the psychology of impossibility so interesting.

1604
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 2: Please do show Harry some love by sharing and tagging

1605
01:15:11,160 --> 01:15:15,680
Speaker 2: at Richard dot Harris Underscore or his fabulous podcast at

1606
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:16,919
Speaker 2: Real Risk Podcast.

1607
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:18,240
Speaker 1: I'll pop links in the.

1608
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:20,640
Speaker 2: Episode notes to that and his book so you can

1609
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:23,600
Speaker 2: have a listen. Hope you're having an amazing week and

1610
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:25,040
Speaker 2: is seizing your yay