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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on Hi. I'm Clare Murphy. This is Mma

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Speaker 1: MIA's daily news podcast for Quickie. For as long as

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Speaker 1: there have been people, there have been relationships, and as

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Speaker 1: long as there have been relationships, there's been infidelity.

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Speaker 2: We were on the prad and for the record, it

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Speaker 2: took two people to break up this relationship.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you and that group in the copy place, which

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Speaker 1: yesterday you took full responsibility for. Today, we're exploring cheating

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Speaker 1: three ways from someone who's been the cheater, the cheated

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Speaker 1: on and the other woman. But before we explore the

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Speaker 1: reasons behind our straying ways, let's head to the Quickie

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Speaker 1: newsroom for the latest for Thursday August eight. Australian hockey

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Speaker 1: player Tom Craig has apologized after he was busted trying

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Speaker 1: to buy cocaine in Paris. The twenty eight year old

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Speaker 1: said he made a terrible mistake and took full responsible

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Speaker 1: for his actions after he was seen by a police

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Speaker 1: officer trying to buy the drug. Craig says his actions

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Speaker 1: are his own and by no way reflect the values

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Speaker 1: of his family, teammates, friends, sport or the Australian Olympic team.

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Speaker 1: Craig was released without charges, coppying a warning from the

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Speaker 1: Prosecutor's office. The federal government will cover a fifteen percent

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Speaker 1: wage increase for early childhood educators in an attempt to

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Speaker 1: increase the number of staff in what is a female

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Speaker 1: dominated workforce. Staffing shortages have been plaguing the sector in

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Speaker 1: recent years. This pay increase, which will be phased in

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Speaker 1: over two years, beginning with a ten percent bump in December,

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Speaker 1: followed by a five percent increase in December twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: hopes to bolster the ranks of early childhood educators. That

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Speaker 1: translates into around one hundred and three dollars per week

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Speaker 1: pay rise. The increase also applying to those working in

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Speaker 1: outside of ours care for school children. To protect parents

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Speaker 1: and careers who are sometimes paying fees akin to mortgage

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Speaker 1: or payments, childcare centers will have to commit to limit

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Speaker 1: fee increases to no more than four point four percent

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Speaker 1: over the next twelve months. Will be catching up with

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Speaker 1: Prime Minister Anthony Alberzi later today to discuss this in

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Speaker 1: more detail. The family of a French explorer who was

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Speaker 1: on board the Titan submersible when it imploded on a

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Speaker 1: descent to see the Titanic wreck in the North Atlantic

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Speaker 1: in June last year, a suing for more than fifty

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Speaker 1: million dollars US Paul Henri Nagelai was one of five

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Speaker 1: people who died in the accident. His estate's attorneys saying

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Speaker 1: the doomed submersible had a troubled history that the company

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Speaker 1: who ran the trips down to the ocean floor, ocean Gate,

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Speaker 1: had failed to disclose the key facts about the vessel

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Speaker 1: and its durability, even to Nagelais himself, who was a

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Speaker 1: crew member. Concerns were raised in the aftermath of the

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Speaker 1: disaster over the Titan's unconventional design and the company's refusal

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Speaker 1: to submit to independent checks that are standard in the industry.

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Speaker 1: Two suspected extremists have been arrested in Vienna who seemed

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Speaker 1: to be planning an attack on a major event, such

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Speaker 1: as the upcoming Taylor Swift concerts. The nineteen year old

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Speaker 1: had pledged an oath of all line Agians to the

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Speaker 1: Islamic State group. The Austrian citizen believed to have been

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Speaker 1: radicalized online The public Security director said they had secured

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Speaker 1: chemical substances which were currently being evaluated, but didn't give

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Speaker 1: any more detail on what exactly the planned attack entailed.

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Speaker 1: Swift House concerts scheduled in Vienna on Thursday, Friday and

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Speaker 1: Saturday as part of her Eras tour. In the wake

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Speaker 1: of the arrest, security measures will be ramped up, with

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Speaker 1: a special focus on entry checks.

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Speaker 2: The Pulse on Paris thanks to move by Mamma Mia

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Speaker 2: the exercise app He'll actually.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy another four gold for Australia overnight, with Nina Kennedy

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Speaker 1: winning the women's pole vault this morning and skateboarder Keegan

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Speaker 1: Palmer defending his title to take home gold in the

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Speaker 1: men's park event. Matt Wern also backed up his Tokyo

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Speaker 1: win with the gold in the men's dinghy. He's now

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Speaker 1: the first person ever to win dingy gold at consecutive

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Speaker 1: Olympic Games. The Ossie men's team Pursuit defeated Great Britain

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Speaker 1: in the cycling final, grabbing gold in the event for

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Speaker 1: the first time since Athens in two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 3: Four.

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Speaker 1: We also picked up bronze in the mixed walk relay

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Speaker 1: with Jemima Montag who already has a bronze to her

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Speaker 1: name in the twenty k individual walk at this Games,

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Speaker 1: coming in third with her partner Ruddy and Cowley, And

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Speaker 1: it was bronze for Matt Denny in the men's discus,

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Speaker 1: the first Ossie to ever win a medal in the

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Speaker 1: sport at in Olympic Games. The Opals are also through

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Speaker 1: to the semifinals for the first time since twenty twelve,

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Speaker 1: defeating Servia eighty five to sixty seven, and on the field,

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Speaker 1: Mackenzie Little and Catherine Mitchell have made the javelin final.

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Speaker 1: The men's water polo team, though the Ossie Sharks around

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Speaker 1: after going down to the US eleven to ten in

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Speaker 1: the quarterfinals, and Bailey Lewis also lost his taekwondo quarterfinal.

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Speaker 1: That's the latest news headlines. Next, why do we cheat?

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Speaker 1: We find out from a psychologist and someone who has

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Speaker 1: experienced every way there is to be unfaithful. Katie has

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Speaker 1: experienced cheating from every perspective. She'd been married for two

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Speaker 1: years when she started to feel like the relationship wasn't

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Speaker 1: giving her what she needed.

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Speaker 3: I felt like I was doing the line's share of everything.

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Speaker 3: He wasn't helping out in any way. He has children

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Speaker 3: from previous relationships, and one of them ended up moving

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Speaker 3: and to live with us full time, and I was

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Speaker 3: doing all of the cares for that child as well

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Speaker 3: as working and trying to upkeep the house. Just came

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Speaker 3: down to I was feeling very undervalued, overworked. I'd had

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Speaker 3: so many discussions with him prior to making that decision

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Speaker 3: about how my needs weren't being met, and unfortunately, as

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Speaker 3: probably most, it comes down to a lack of sex.

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Speaker 1: She admits she didn't feel good about what she was doing,

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Speaker 1: but told herself what she needed to to just fight.

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Speaker 3: I absolutely felt guilty about it. It wasn't just one person,

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Speaker 3: it was a series of encounters. Now, having been on

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Speaker 3: the other side of things as well, I realized that

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Speaker 3: it's just as horrible when they're having casual encounters as

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Speaker 3: it is having a relationship. But I suppose in my

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Speaker 3: head I justified it as I was just kind of

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Speaker 3: getting needs met, whereas I think if it was a relationship,

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Speaker 3: but it's a different sort of cheating, I suppose, so yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think guess it is easy to justify it to yourself.

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Speaker 1: Katie admits her mental health had been suffering at the time,

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Speaker 1: but when the guilt of the affair piled up on

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Speaker 1: top of it, she cracked.

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Speaker 3: I had a bit of a mental breakdown, and he

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Speaker 3: was with me in the hospital when I was admitted.

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Speaker 3: I just told him everything. He was amazing, to be honest,

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Speaker 3: He was very forgiving and just accepted that, you know,

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Speaker 3: he hadn't really up his end of the bargain as

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Speaker 3: a husband, which I did not expect at all. He

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Speaker 3: was willing to move forward and work with me and

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Speaker 3: heal that, but I unfortunately think I was just a

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Speaker 3: bit too far gone at that point in time, and

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Speaker 3: did consequently a few months later, make the decision to separate.

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Speaker 1: After the end of her marriage, Katie moved on quickly

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Speaker 1: with the man she'd had a relationship with in the past.

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Speaker 1: She says she didn't intend on becoming the other woman,

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Speaker 1: but she fell for the stories he was telling her.

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Speaker 3: I fully bought his sub story of you know you

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Speaker 3: are my one. I've regretted every minute since we broke up.

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Speaker 3: I've always just wanted to get back together. I've just

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Speaker 3: been looking for you. You know, my end goal will

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Speaker 3: rule the world together sort of bullshit. And he said that,

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Speaker 3: you know, the relationship was over with the woman that

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Speaker 3: he was with, if he was just kind of trying

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Speaker 3: to get his ducks in a row.

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Speaker 1: Eventually, Katie says, she got tired of being the other woman,

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Speaker 1: and so she took matters into her own hands, but

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Speaker 1: was careful not to expose herself in the process, managing

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Speaker 1: to keep her part in all of it top secret.

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Speaker 3: I didn't tell her about me. I told her about

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Speaker 3: the person that he'd confided in me that he was

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Speaker 3: seeing before me, that she had suspicion that he was

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Speaker 3: having relations with. She beat us home and cleared out

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Speaker 3: all of her stuff and went to her parents' place

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Speaker 3: and just sent him a text message saying, you know,

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Speaker 3: I know everything. I'm gone.

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Speaker 1: At the time, Katie fully believed that she'd done the

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Speaker 1: right thing in telling the woman about her unfaithful man,

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Speaker 1: but she realizes now she had ulterior motives.

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Speaker 3: I felt like I've done her a bit of a favor.

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Speaker 3: I know that sounds stupid, but I stupidly brought into

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Speaker 3: I was the one. I was the end goal. I

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Speaker 3: was young and silly and impatient and wanting a child myself.

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Speaker 1: Katie was now openly in a relationship with this man,

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Speaker 1: but soon the final leg of the cheating trifecta would

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Speaker 1: catch up with her. Other people around her, including the

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Speaker 1: man's own father, had tried to warn her that he

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Speaker 1: was back to his old tricks, but until she had

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Speaker 1: solid evidence, she didn't want to believe that she had

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Speaker 1: finally become the victim.

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Speaker 3: If he cheats with you, he'll cheat on you. Shortly

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Speaker 3: after the birth of my child, I was at home

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Speaker 3: with the baby. He'd left his iPad on the lounge.

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Speaker 3: I picked up the iPad and was looking through it

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Speaker 3: as I did it every spare opportunity, going through all

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Speaker 3: the devices, and I found some Facebook Messenger messages that

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Speaker 3: he hadn't gotten around to deleting before he left to

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Speaker 3: go to this other woman's place.

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Speaker 1: Katie has experienced cheating from all the angles. But why

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Speaker 1: do we do it? And he is a saying once

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Speaker 1: a cheater, always a cheat at a real thing. What

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Speaker 1: can we change our unfaithful ways? Sexual Health Australia data

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Speaker 1: estimates that around sixty percent of men and forty five

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Speaker 1: percent of women are willing to report that they've been

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Speaker 1: unfaithful to their husband or wife, and that up to

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Speaker 1: seventy percent of all marriages will experience an affair at

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Speaker 1: some stage without increased access to potential partners online. The

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Speaker 1: prevalence of internet based affairs has become a more prominent

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Speaker 1: issue in relationships too, the anonymity and convenience making it

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Speaker 1: easier to stray. But these are only those who admit

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Speaker 1: to having an affair and who are willing to be

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Speaker 1: open about it, so those numbers could actually be even higher.

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Speaker 1: And while these stats show men are more likely to

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Speaker 1: cheat than women, scientists claim women actually cheat on an

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Speaker 1: equal basis to men. They're just better at hiding it

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Speaker 1: and are less inclined to admit it. Elizabeth Shaws, the

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Speaker 1: CEO of Relationships Australia, New South Wales and as a

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Speaker 1: practicing clinical and counseling psychologist, Elizabeth, if someone cheats on

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Speaker 1: a partner, is that actually a sign that they will

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Speaker 1: be more likely to do it again?

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Speaker 2: Look, I think the efforts you have to go to

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Speaker 2: to cheat requires a great deal of mental gymnastics to

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Speaker 2: get your head around it. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: justification that goes into it in terms of your own

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Speaker 2: position and reasoning for doing it, and also the reasons

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Speaker 2: you have against the other for doing it, and so

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Speaker 2: all the labor that goes into developing that narrative in

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Speaker 2: your head can obviously be reused for the next situation.

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Speaker 1: Does somebody who cheats and then takes the time to

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Speaker 1: understand why they did it less likely to cheat?

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Speaker 2: You think, look absolutely, because you know, I think in

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Speaker 2: a society where monogamy is seen to be the norm

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Speaker 2: and the prize, and generally you have promised that to

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Speaker 2: your partner. So outside of any discussion about polyamory, which

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Speaker 2: is based on transparency, monogamy is based on trust and

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Speaker 2: that mutual commitment. So you know that you have breached

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Speaker 2: that boundary. The only way to stay on top of

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Speaker 2: that is to try and develop a narrative that stacks

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Speaker 2: up for that time. Once you've stepped back from that situation,

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Speaker 2: maybe the relationship has ended, or you've come to this

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Speaker 2: same agreement with a new partner and you have to

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Speaker 2: revisit that. And people do tend to come back to

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Speaker 2: basics thinking, no, I'm ready now to make this commitment,

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Speaker 2: and I can do that. But unless you have spent

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Speaker 2: some time reflecting and really working out why you did that,

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Speaker 2: how it came to that, it's probably at risk of

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Speaker 2: lasting and the reason for that is that most people

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Speaker 2: put it down to the situation at the time and

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Speaker 2: so dispense with it as or that was then, or

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Speaker 2: that was that person, instead of saying, no, maybe there's

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Speaker 2: more to it, maybe there's something else I really need

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Speaker 2: to come to grips within myself.

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Speaker 1: What does it take for a couple to overcome a

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Speaker 1: cheating moment? Because you've got somebody who has been wronged,

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Speaker 1: you've got someone who's carrying guilts. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: emotion and a lot of hurdles to overcome. But what

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Speaker 1: does it take to get through to the other side

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Speaker 1: of that?

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Speaker 2: It does certainly take quite a period of work. People

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Speaker 2: generally start with a double down on monitoring and going

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Speaker 2: into details, So the wronged partner will often want all

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Speaker 2: the details to really come to grips with what at

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Speaker 2: that stage they perceived to be the competition. The mindset

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Speaker 2: in that is, was there something the matter with me?

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Speaker 2: Or was there something the matter with this relationship. It's

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Speaker 2: true enough that couples will look at their relationship and

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Speaker 2: often find that closeness had slipped or intimacy had slipped.

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Speaker 2: But you know, an awful lot of relationships Indeed, the

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Speaker 2: majority of relationships can go through those minorly neglectful times

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Speaker 2: without this happening. An affair is an active choice by

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Speaker 2: one party, even if it was opportunistic, it is an

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Speaker 2: active choice, and it says more about the person who

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Speaker 2: chose to do it than it does about the relationship.

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Speaker 2: So inevitably, trust takes a while to build, and getting

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Speaker 2: the details and doubling down on monitoring. You know, you

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Speaker 2: have to be home when you say you're going to

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Speaker 2: be home, and I want you to text this many

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Speaker 2: times a day. Those things happen initially, but of course

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Speaker 2: trust isn't built on any of those things. And as

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Speaker 2: the couple does the work on the relationship comes to

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Speaker 2: grips with what's happened. And if the person who had

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Speaker 2: the affair really wants to maintain the relationship, and that's

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Speaker 2: the majority of work I do, they go into a

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Speaker 2: panic and want to save the relationship. As long as

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Speaker 2: they're working hard to understand themselves why it happened and

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Speaker 2: bring themselves fully back to the relationship. Eventually those sort

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Speaker 2: of monitoring things slip away and the couple move forward.

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Speaker 2: But the person who's been wronged also needs to say

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Speaker 2: I choose to take the risk to stay with this

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Speaker 2: person even though it happened before. That's a big thing

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Speaker 2: for them to do.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: Intimacy and commitment is built on taking a risk. I

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Speaker 2: do see couples do that work. But often they're couples

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Speaker 2: that are much stronger going forward because mid relationship they've

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Speaker 2: stopped and really focused on each other and decided this

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Speaker 2: is important to fight for, and they're often all the stronger.

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Speaker 1: For it, Elizabeth, Why do some people choose to cheat

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Speaker 1: and some people choose to fix? Why do some people

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Speaker 1: not try and work harder on their relationship? Is it

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Speaker 1: because it's easier, even though in the long run it's

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Speaker 1: essentially more difficult for them.

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Speaker 2: Look, there are some people who, in their heart of

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Speaker 2: hearts never really are going to be monogamous. They just

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Speaker 2: won't admit to it or won't admit that to their partner.

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Speaker 2: And so it's a small proportion in research of people

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Speaker 2: who are really you know, playing the game because they

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Speaker 2: often do really want the person they've committed to and

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Speaker 2: they don't want to compromise that, but they really don't

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Speaker 2: feel they can be monogamous. Then there are the majority

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Speaker 2: of people who might engage in something opportunistically, you know,

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Speaker 2: the classic being away at a conference kind of moment.

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Speaker 2: All the way through to people who have parallel relationships,

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Speaker 2: and there are people who have an affair, which is

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Speaker 2: the sort of leaving the relationship affair that is really

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Speaker 2: telling them I'm out of here, and I should have

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Speaker 2: been out of here before now. So in that middle group,

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Speaker 2: the majority of people who do something that they perceive

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Speaker 2: to be a mistake, they often will say, look, there

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Speaker 2: was nothing wrong with the relationship as such, I got

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Speaker 2: caught up in something, And there is a seduction in that.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes there is a real contrast of you know, the

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Speaker 2: person that they're working with where there is a real

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Speaker 2: intellectual spark that isn't necessarily where things are out at home.

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Speaker 2: So there is a seduction in a different part of

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Speaker 2: me is coming alive. I mean, when you fall in

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Speaker 2: love or fall in lust, you obviously enjoy something in

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Speaker 2: the other person, but also equally enjoy the feelings in yourself.

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Speaker 2: You love what's come alive in you, and you want

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Speaker 2: those feelings like a drug. But equally you have to

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Speaker 2: work hard to say how do I keep this going?

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Speaker 2: And you have to build a narrative like my partner's

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Speaker 2: busy or my partner's less interested in sex. You have

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Speaker 2: to come up with a justification why you don't turn

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Speaker 2: your energies there. It means then when the affair ends

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Speaker 2: or they feel threatened by the loss of the relationship,

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Speaker 2: that's a lot of energy to switch back on because

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Speaker 2: you're suddenly looking at someone that you haven't invested in,

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Speaker 2: and it's quite a threat to think, well, what did

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Speaker 2: I learn that I want to bring back to the relationship.

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Speaker 2: And the partner who was wronged can say, well, you're

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Speaker 2: expressing a lot of new interests and I know where

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Speaker 2: you learned them. What do I do with that? So

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Speaker 2: you know that is a challenge, but I guess as

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Speaker 2: I say, it's the work that I do, and I

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Speaker 2: see couples do get through this, and it can be

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Speaker 2: very powerful work to do because it's built in that crisis,

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Speaker 2: and in that crisis they can be very sure that

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Speaker 2: this primary relationship is one that they want to say.

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Speaker 1: It's been a few years since Katie's cheater other woman

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Speaker 1: cheated on experience, so what are her relationships like now?

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Speaker 3: I pretty much stayed single that entire time and just

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Speaker 3: taking the time to work on myself and stay single

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Speaker 3: and get to the root of why I felt the

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Speaker 3: need to do what I was doing and the cosmic

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Speaker 3: calma I suppose that I brought upon myself. It's taken

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Speaker 3: me about three years of a lot of intense introspection

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Speaker 3: to work out the root causes and not just jump

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Speaker 3: between relationships. Before that, I think I didn't feel secure

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Speaker 3: enough in myself to be single. So yeah, I was

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Speaker 3: looking for another relationship before leaving the previous one.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in today, friends. The quickie is produced

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Speaker 1: by me, Claire Murphy and our senior producer Taylor Strano,

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Speaker 1: with audio production by tom Lin, Number.

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Speaker 2: Meaning and Numbathy. Said you, Gwendalk