1 00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:13,047 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767 Speaker 2: Mama Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,807 --> 00:00:19,367 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on out Louders. 4 00:00:19,407 --> 00:00:22,087 Speaker 3: If you're missing your weekly out Loud routine over the break, 5 00:00:22,127 --> 00:00:24,367 Speaker 3: how could you not? We wanted to let you know 6 00:00:24,487 --> 00:00:28,287 Speaker 3: that we're still dropping episodes for Mamma mea subscribers all 7 00:00:28,367 --> 00:00:31,767 Speaker 3: summer long. So as a subscriber, you get full access 8 00:00:31,807 --> 00:00:35,007 Speaker 3: to out Loud, including the back catalog of over two 9 00:00:35,207 --> 00:00:39,407 Speaker 3: hundred and fifty subscriber only episodes. Subscribe to Mamma Mia 10 00:00:39,647 --> 00:00:41,447 Speaker 3: via the link in the episode description. 11 00:00:45,087 --> 00:00:47,687 Speaker 1: Hey out Louders, it's Maya. This is the time of year. 12 00:00:47,687 --> 00:00:49,847 Speaker 1: We often get reflective, don't we, about the year that 13 00:00:49,887 --> 00:00:52,807 Speaker 1: we've had, where we are in our lives, what we 14 00:00:52,807 --> 00:00:55,647 Speaker 1: want more of in our life, or even what we 15 00:00:55,687 --> 00:00:58,967 Speaker 1: want less of. And sometimes in these reflective moments, when 16 00:00:58,967 --> 00:01:01,447 Speaker 1: we have a minute to catch our breath, it can 17 00:01:01,527 --> 00:01:05,127 Speaker 1: lead us to making big life decisions. Someone who made 18 00:01:05,247 --> 00:01:08,727 Speaker 1: one of those big life decisions not long ago is 19 00:01:08,767 --> 00:01:11,087 Speaker 1: one whole Wayne Wright, and so many of you have 20 00:01:11,127 --> 00:01:14,487 Speaker 1: written to us this year with questions about the decision 21 00:01:14,607 --> 00:01:17,807 Speaker 1: she made to move from the city to the country. 22 00:01:18,047 --> 00:01:21,167 Speaker 1: So I thought I would sit down with Holly. I mean, 23 00:01:21,207 --> 00:01:23,567 Speaker 1: I didn't have to go very far. We're often sitting 24 00:01:23,567 --> 00:01:26,847 Speaker 1: at the same table chatting, and I wanted to ask 25 00:01:26,887 --> 00:01:28,847 Speaker 1: her all the questions that you have about that lifestyle 26 00:01:28,967 --> 00:01:30,847 Speaker 1: change and whether or not it was the right decision, 27 00:01:31,167 --> 00:01:34,287 Speaker 1: the highs, the lows, the things she wasn't prepared for. 28 00:01:34,567 --> 00:01:38,727 Speaker 1: Here's Holly holds. So many outlouders are fascinated with your garden. 29 00:01:39,247 --> 00:01:42,727 Speaker 1: I'm not one of them, but also your decision to 30 00:01:42,767 --> 00:01:46,327 Speaker 1: swap city life for country life. Take us back to 31 00:01:46,327 --> 00:01:48,807 Speaker 1: the beginning, though, how's your lifestyle changed since you made 32 00:01:48,847 --> 00:01:49,167 Speaker 1: the move? 33 00:01:49,527 --> 00:01:51,767 Speaker 2: Do you know it's three years since we moved to 34 00:01:51,847 --> 00:01:54,527 Speaker 2: the country, which is wild, righto? 35 00:01:54,567 --> 00:01:56,047 Speaker 1: We in lockdown? It feel like we were. 36 00:01:56,247 --> 00:01:59,127 Speaker 2: Yes, it was the day that I left. Was the 37 00:01:59,207 --> 00:02:01,687 Speaker 2: day that Sydney went into that lockdown that then lasted 38 00:02:01,767 --> 00:02:03,887 Speaker 2: till October June twelve? 39 00:02:04,047 --> 00:02:05,847 Speaker 1: Was it? Oh? 40 00:02:05,887 --> 00:02:08,487 Speaker 2: So the day that I left Sydney was that day? 41 00:02:08,527 --> 00:02:10,687 Speaker 2: So that's how long ago that was? Everybody? That was 42 00:02:10,727 --> 00:02:11,367 Speaker 2: three years ago. 43 00:02:12,127 --> 00:02:13,367 Speaker 1: Our lives have changed a lot. 44 00:02:13,687 --> 00:02:17,127 Speaker 2: My life has become in some ways more simple and 45 00:02:17,167 --> 00:02:20,247 Speaker 2: in some ways more complicated. So when I'm down there 46 00:02:20,527 --> 00:02:22,407 Speaker 2: where I live, which is like two hour drives south 47 00:02:22,407 --> 00:02:26,447 Speaker 2: of Sydney to in a bit hours drive. It's beautiful, peaceful. 48 00:02:26,607 --> 00:02:29,127 Speaker 2: There's not a lot going on. Obviously, there is a 49 00:02:29,127 --> 00:02:30,687 Speaker 2: lot going on in my life in terms of I've 50 00:02:30,687 --> 00:02:32,927 Speaker 2: got kids who need to get to school and life 51 00:02:32,927 --> 00:02:36,287 Speaker 2: and all those things. But it's a very peaceful, quiet place. 52 00:02:37,207 --> 00:02:39,527 Speaker 2: And we have some friends, you know, but like a 53 00:02:39,567 --> 00:02:42,687 Speaker 2: relatively small group of nice friends who we see or 54 00:02:42,687 --> 00:02:44,487 Speaker 2: we just have a routine of doing it. But I've 55 00:02:44,487 --> 00:02:48,207 Speaker 2: bought everybody already with my interest in gardening, etc. And 56 00:02:48,247 --> 00:02:50,047 Speaker 2: so in some ways it's simple. But then in other 57 00:02:50,087 --> 00:02:52,567 Speaker 2: ways my life is more complicated because a lot of 58 00:02:52,567 --> 00:02:55,527 Speaker 2: my work is still in Sydney, so I come up 59 00:02:55,567 --> 00:02:57,687 Speaker 2: to Sydney a lot, which makes for the either long 60 00:02:57,687 --> 00:03:00,887 Speaker 2: commuting days or more time away from family. To be honest, though, 61 00:03:00,927 --> 00:03:03,647 Speaker 2: I like it, like I like the mixture. Although it 62 00:03:03,647 --> 00:03:06,927 Speaker 2: can be a bit tiring, I really like having that 63 00:03:07,127 --> 00:03:09,927 Speaker 2: mixture if I have a choice. I was my week, 64 00:03:09,967 --> 00:03:11,767 Speaker 2: So the first few days of the week is busy 65 00:03:11,807 --> 00:03:14,087 Speaker 2: Sydney stuff, and later in the week I can be 66 00:03:14,167 --> 00:03:17,727 Speaker 2: home writing or focusing on creative work. And it's like 67 00:03:18,327 --> 00:03:20,247 Speaker 2: I love the city and I love seeing my friends 68 00:03:20,247 --> 00:03:22,247 Speaker 2: and seeing you guys, and you know, maybe I'll go 69 00:03:22,287 --> 00:03:24,127 Speaker 2: and have a dinner with mates if I'm staying over 70 00:03:24,367 --> 00:03:26,567 Speaker 2: or whatever that kind of stuff. And then when I 71 00:03:26,647 --> 00:03:28,967 Speaker 2: get back there on a Wednesday night, it's like this 72 00:03:29,087 --> 00:03:33,047 Speaker 2: big exhalation and you're just like ah. And so I 73 00:03:33,087 --> 00:03:33,887 Speaker 2: do like it a lot. 74 00:03:33,967 --> 00:03:37,127 Speaker 1: You know why I'm envious because when you're working, you're working, yes, 75 00:03:37,167 --> 00:03:39,567 Speaker 1: and you're by yourself in the big city essentially are 76 00:03:39,567 --> 00:03:42,767 Speaker 1: staying with friends. And when you're home it's not that 77 00:03:42,807 --> 00:03:46,007 Speaker 1: you're not working as well. But the most stressful times 78 00:03:46,007 --> 00:03:47,927 Speaker 1: for me, particularly when my kids were younger, was when 79 00:03:47,927 --> 00:03:49,687 Speaker 1: I was doing the two things at once and I 80 00:03:49,807 --> 00:03:52,647 Speaker 1: longed to be able to just focus on one or 81 00:03:52,687 --> 00:03:53,007 Speaker 1: the other. 82 00:03:53,407 --> 00:03:57,527 Speaker 2: I definitely have more, you know, the much overused and 83 00:03:57,567 --> 00:04:00,487 Speaker 2: slightly vomitous term work life balance, but I think that's 84 00:04:00,527 --> 00:04:01,767 Speaker 2: also because my career. 85 00:04:01,527 --> 00:04:03,807 Speaker 1: Has evolved, like and your kids are older, yeah. 86 00:04:03,687 --> 00:04:06,087 Speaker 2: And I'm not doing a managerial role anymore. That bleeds 87 00:04:06,167 --> 00:04:08,047 Speaker 2: into so there's still a lot of work to be done, 88 00:04:08,087 --> 00:04:10,287 Speaker 2: but it's it can be done more on my time, 89 00:04:10,407 --> 00:04:13,647 Speaker 2: whereas when you're managing people and everything, that's not a 90 00:04:13,727 --> 00:04:16,087 Speaker 2: luxury that's supported to you if they need you, they 91 00:04:16,127 --> 00:04:16,647 Speaker 2: need you right. 92 00:04:16,727 --> 00:04:19,167 Speaker 1: One of the big differences I've noticed in your lifestyle, 93 00:04:19,207 --> 00:04:21,407 Speaker 1: we talked about this a lot before you moved, was 94 00:04:22,007 --> 00:04:25,607 Speaker 1: because in Sydney, with property prices and rental and everything, 95 00:04:25,767 --> 00:04:29,127 Speaker 1: you were in quite a small apartment and so your 96 00:04:29,207 --> 00:04:31,447 Speaker 1: kids were a lot younger as well, And because the 97 00:04:31,527 --> 00:04:35,127 Speaker 1: apartment was small, it meant that you were out a lot. 98 00:04:35,327 --> 00:04:37,327 Speaker 1: You had a really busy social life. You were living 99 00:04:37,327 --> 00:04:41,087 Speaker 1: in a really busy coastal suburb. You had lots and 100 00:04:41,127 --> 00:04:43,647 Speaker 1: lots of friends in the area. Your kids had lots 101 00:04:43,647 --> 00:04:46,167 Speaker 1: of friends, they went to local schools, so you were 102 00:04:46,287 --> 00:04:49,687 Speaker 1: out constantly. And one of the things that you talked about, 103 00:04:49,727 --> 00:04:52,127 Speaker 1: I think was one of your reasons for wanting to move, 104 00:04:52,367 --> 00:04:54,607 Speaker 1: was that you could afford to have a bigger house 105 00:04:55,207 --> 00:04:57,727 Speaker 1: and you could have more hanging out at home time, 106 00:04:57,727 --> 00:05:00,727 Speaker 1: which you thought would benefit particularly your youngest child at 107 00:05:00,727 --> 00:05:01,047 Speaker 1: the time. 108 00:05:01,127 --> 00:05:03,007 Speaker 2: And it has one hundred percent what about you though, 109 00:05:03,167 --> 00:05:05,327 Speaker 2: and me? But the thing that's interesting about that is 110 00:05:05,407 --> 00:05:08,327 Speaker 2: I've changed like this is the thing that's interesting is 111 00:05:08,447 --> 00:05:11,767 Speaker 2: I've always lived in cities until now. It's so true 112 00:05:11,767 --> 00:05:13,007 Speaker 2: what you say. You know, we lived in a small 113 00:05:13,047 --> 00:05:15,287 Speaker 2: apartment in a very busy suburb close to lots of 114 00:05:15,327 --> 00:05:18,487 Speaker 2: our friends, which is great, but life was very hectic. 115 00:05:19,047 --> 00:05:21,047 Speaker 2: There's a bit of me that likes that for sure. 116 00:05:21,247 --> 00:05:23,527 Speaker 2: You know, I don't like sitting still too much, but 117 00:05:23,607 --> 00:05:27,287 Speaker 2: I didn't know how much I would enjoy having more space. So, 118 00:05:27,487 --> 00:05:29,807 Speaker 2: like a lot of people who are making this decision 119 00:05:29,847 --> 00:05:31,927 Speaker 2: now about if we want space, we have to move 120 00:05:32,087 --> 00:05:35,767 Speaker 2: further away, I've got a garden. I love it pottering, 121 00:05:36,007 --> 00:05:39,567 Speaker 2: having outdoor space, having indoor space. And it is true 122 00:05:39,567 --> 00:05:43,447 Speaker 2: that my son in particular, who is neuro divergent, suits 123 00:05:43,527 --> 00:05:46,007 Speaker 2: him much better to have a quieter life and have 124 00:05:46,047 --> 00:05:47,647 Speaker 2: a home that you can hang out in and have 125 00:05:47,727 --> 00:05:50,807 Speaker 2: his own space. But you know, I always pains to say, 126 00:05:50,847 --> 00:05:53,287 Speaker 2: like I don't think any decisions perfect. I worry all 127 00:05:53,327 --> 00:05:57,687 Speaker 2: the time. Have I limited their opportunities by moving somewhere 128 00:05:57,727 --> 00:06:00,447 Speaker 2: where there isn't so much to do in schools and 129 00:06:00,487 --> 00:06:02,487 Speaker 2: blah blah, Like you worry about all that stuff. And 130 00:06:02,847 --> 00:06:05,407 Speaker 2: I think if I was down there all the time, 131 00:06:06,447 --> 00:06:08,527 Speaker 2: I would find it a bit more limiting than I do. 132 00:06:08,727 --> 00:06:11,047 Speaker 2: But I love the balance I've got, and I have 133 00:06:11,167 --> 00:06:13,407 Speaker 2: become someone who likes being home and li likes pottering 134 00:06:13,447 --> 00:06:15,047 Speaker 2: me or always used to say to me, don't have 135 00:06:15,047 --> 00:06:17,087 Speaker 2: a potter, and I'll be like, no, But now I do. 136 00:06:17,167 --> 00:06:19,007 Speaker 2: I potter in the garden, I potter in the house. 137 00:06:19,047 --> 00:06:21,567 Speaker 2: I potter potter. And so I think I've changed, and 138 00:06:21,607 --> 00:06:25,727 Speaker 2: I generally speaking, it's being great. 139 00:06:26,767 --> 00:06:28,487 Speaker 1: I know this isn't no filter. But I have a 140 00:06:28,487 --> 00:06:30,687 Speaker 1: couple more questions about back. So we haven't talked about 141 00:06:30,687 --> 00:06:33,447 Speaker 1: it for ages. We haven't the decision to actually do it. 142 00:06:33,607 --> 00:06:36,487 Speaker 1: You said you'd never lived out of a city before, 143 00:06:37,087 --> 00:06:37,527 Speaker 1: had Brent? 144 00:06:37,927 --> 00:06:39,847 Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. Like he'd spent lots of 145 00:06:39,887 --> 00:06:42,167 Speaker 2: time traveling, and I've done a favorit of traveling, But no, 146 00:06:42,247 --> 00:06:43,727 Speaker 2: I think he always lived in the city too. 147 00:06:44,127 --> 00:06:47,647 Speaker 1: That's a huge call. Like, particularly we're in the middle 148 00:06:47,647 --> 00:06:50,687 Speaker 1: of the pandemic. You had two kids in primary school, 149 00:06:51,247 --> 00:06:53,967 Speaker 1: You had no family that you were moving to be 150 00:06:54,047 --> 00:06:58,447 Speaker 1: closer to. I always joke that every time you make relationships, 151 00:06:58,567 --> 00:07:01,447 Speaker 1: I just keep moving away from people, like Maunchester wasn't 152 00:07:01,487 --> 00:07:04,127 Speaker 1: far enough. So then you created a community in Sydney 153 00:07:04,167 --> 00:07:06,487 Speaker 1: and then had to move away from that. But how 154 00:07:06,527 --> 00:07:08,487 Speaker 1: did you know what was going to work? Like what 155 00:07:08,567 --> 00:07:10,967 Speaker 1: was the decision making process you went through. 156 00:07:11,247 --> 00:07:13,487 Speaker 2: I don't think we did necessarily know it was going 157 00:07:13,567 --> 00:07:15,927 Speaker 2: to work, but we'd been talking about it forever, right 158 00:07:16,007 --> 00:07:18,807 Speaker 2: because this issue about space, and Brent in particular was 159 00:07:18,927 --> 00:07:21,727 Speaker 2: very keen for a change, and I was quite keen 160 00:07:21,767 --> 00:07:24,407 Speaker 2: for a change. I was feeling quite burnt out. But 161 00:07:24,527 --> 00:07:26,927 Speaker 2: I knew that he would love living in a small town. 162 00:07:26,967 --> 00:07:29,207 Speaker 2: So Brent if for those who don't know him, he's 163 00:07:29,247 --> 00:07:32,807 Speaker 2: the most sociable, gregarious person, right he gets on with everybody, 164 00:07:33,327 --> 00:07:34,687 Speaker 2: which you'd think, oh, well, he'd like to be in 165 00:07:34,687 --> 00:07:36,287 Speaker 2: a busy place. But actually I knew that if we 166 00:07:36,327 --> 00:07:38,447 Speaker 2: moved to a small town, he would know everyone within 167 00:07:38,487 --> 00:07:40,167 Speaker 2: a month. And it is kind of like that, like 168 00:07:40,247 --> 00:07:42,607 Speaker 2: he doesn't. He knows a lot of people. He joins things, 169 00:07:43,367 --> 00:07:45,927 Speaker 2: he's on the p and C. He's in an organizing 170 00:07:45,927 --> 00:07:48,487 Speaker 2: committee for this, He's joined a poker group that he's 171 00:07:48,527 --> 00:07:51,647 Speaker 2: you know, like. And I'm a bit less gregarious because 172 00:07:51,687 --> 00:07:53,687 Speaker 2: I'm quite well, I guess I'm folcused on my work 173 00:07:53,727 --> 00:07:55,447 Speaker 2: a lot, Like you know, when you're busy and your 174 00:07:55,487 --> 00:07:57,887 Speaker 2: working family, work and family, isn't it. And I'm a 175 00:07:57,887 --> 00:07:58,967 Speaker 2: bit more like that than he is. 176 00:07:59,047 --> 00:08:00,647 Speaker 1: I've thought about this a lot. We spend a lot 177 00:08:00,647 --> 00:08:02,967 Speaker 1: of social energy at work. We do a lot more 178 00:08:03,007 --> 00:08:06,007 Speaker 1: than most people do, whereas you know, Brent, for example, 179 00:08:06,047 --> 00:08:07,207 Speaker 1: doesn't so so. 180 00:08:07,207 --> 00:08:10,087 Speaker 2: He works alone at home most the time. And in fact, 181 00:08:10,127 --> 00:08:12,447 Speaker 2: I've just bullied him into joining a coworking space because 182 00:08:12,447 --> 00:08:15,567 Speaker 2: I worry a bit about him getting isolated. But it's true. 183 00:08:15,607 --> 00:08:17,127 Speaker 2: We talk all the time at work, and I get 184 00:08:17,167 --> 00:08:19,607 Speaker 2: a lot of you know that need filled in my job, 185 00:08:20,247 --> 00:08:22,567 Speaker 2: so I'm quite happy for weekends to be really quiet 186 00:08:22,727 --> 00:08:24,287 Speaker 2: or things to be really quiet. But how do we 187 00:08:24,327 --> 00:08:25,767 Speaker 2: know it's going to work. I don't think we did, 188 00:08:25,807 --> 00:08:27,447 Speaker 2: but I think we'd got to a point where it 189 00:08:27,487 --> 00:08:29,687 Speaker 2: was like, let's just try. And when we first went 190 00:08:29,727 --> 00:08:32,287 Speaker 2: down there, we rented, and at the time it was 191 00:08:32,327 --> 00:08:34,167 Speaker 2: so hard to rent in the regions because everyone was 192 00:08:34,207 --> 00:08:37,527 Speaker 2: doing the tree change, so that was actually quite stressful. Now, 193 00:08:37,567 --> 00:08:39,367 Speaker 2: of course people have moved back to the city and 194 00:08:39,367 --> 00:08:41,727 Speaker 2: it's a bit different. We thought we'll try it on 195 00:08:41,807 --> 00:08:44,127 Speaker 2: this short term rental, see how it goes. As it's 196 00:08:44,167 --> 00:08:46,567 Speaker 2: turned out, it's been great, but I often like I 197 00:08:46,647 --> 00:08:48,767 Speaker 2: still it's been three years and I still sometimes just go, 198 00:08:48,847 --> 00:08:50,687 Speaker 2: I can't believe we did that. We both do it 199 00:08:50,687 --> 00:08:52,207 Speaker 2: all the time. We just look at each other and go, 200 00:08:52,247 --> 00:08:54,327 Speaker 2: I can't believe we did that. Or the thing that's 201 00:08:54,367 --> 00:08:56,087 Speaker 2: lovely about where we live is we live now on 202 00:08:56,127 --> 00:08:58,607 Speaker 2: the coast and also on a river. On the mornings 203 00:08:58,607 --> 00:09:00,607 Speaker 2: i'm home, we get up early, walk the dog along 204 00:09:00,607 --> 00:09:03,007 Speaker 2: the river, along the beach. It is so beautiful, there's 205 00:09:03,007 --> 00:09:06,567 Speaker 2: no one around, there's bloody wallabies, and like it's it's 206 00:09:06,687 --> 00:09:09,207 Speaker 2: just so lovely, and I'm like, I can't believe we live. 207 00:09:09,487 --> 00:09:11,287 Speaker 2: I think that all the time, to be honest, I 208 00:09:11,367 --> 00:09:13,087 Speaker 2: used to think that quite a lot in Sydney too, 209 00:09:13,127 --> 00:09:15,407 Speaker 2: because Sydney's beautiful and I live by the sea, and 210 00:09:15,447 --> 00:09:16,847 Speaker 2: you know I grew up. The place I grew up 211 00:09:16,927 --> 00:09:20,327 Speaker 2: is so different. I often think that. So I don't know. 212 00:09:20,407 --> 00:09:22,967 Speaker 2: But when people are like trying to make a big decision, 213 00:09:23,167 --> 00:09:24,887 Speaker 2: I remember before when I was trying to make this 214 00:09:24,927 --> 00:09:26,727 Speaker 2: big decision. You used to get annoyed with me, because 215 00:09:26,727 --> 00:09:28,647 Speaker 2: we're not annoyed, but we tease each other about it. 216 00:09:28,847 --> 00:09:30,567 Speaker 2: Annoyed you make decisions very quickly. 217 00:09:30,607 --> 00:09:33,807 Speaker 1: Mia does no, No, it's fine. 218 00:09:33,967 --> 00:09:36,007 Speaker 2: You did get annoyed. You'd be like, for God's sake, woman, 219 00:09:36,127 --> 00:09:38,967 Speaker 2: she don't get off the body basically, and I can 220 00:09:39,047 --> 00:09:40,647 Speaker 2: take quite a long time to make a decision, but 221 00:09:40,767 --> 00:09:43,207 Speaker 2: usually when I make it, like I've made it, and 222 00:09:43,287 --> 00:09:45,767 Speaker 2: I do miss my friends. But also in a way, 223 00:09:45,887 --> 00:09:49,007 Speaker 2: I think I needed a quieter life too, and I'm 224 00:09:49,007 --> 00:09:51,847 Speaker 2: a bit healthier down there. You know, we eat better 225 00:09:51,927 --> 00:09:54,487 Speaker 2: and move more, all that boring stuff. Like I just 226 00:09:54,567 --> 00:09:57,207 Speaker 2: think it's been really good for us. But you know, 227 00:09:57,327 --> 00:09:59,487 Speaker 2: if you're a forward thinker, a lot of people I 228 00:09:59,527 --> 00:10:01,807 Speaker 2: know down there are like, oh, when the kids move 229 00:10:01,887 --> 00:10:03,847 Speaker 2: out and go to UNI, or like we were, like, 230 00:10:04,007 --> 00:10:06,007 Speaker 2: there are lots of things about living in the regions, 231 00:10:06,527 --> 00:10:08,407 Speaker 2: and the services aren't as good. It takes weeks and 232 00:10:08,407 --> 00:10:10,287 Speaker 2: weeks again into your dot. It's all those kind of 233 00:10:10,327 --> 00:10:12,207 Speaker 2: things that some people wouldn't cope with. You have to 234 00:10:12,287 --> 00:10:14,607 Speaker 2: be a you have to be at no ubery. There 235 00:10:14,647 --> 00:10:16,967 Speaker 2: is no delivery of food in my suburb at all. 236 00:10:17,047 --> 00:10:21,047 Speaker 2: There is no ubers or taxis, hardly any public transport. 237 00:10:21,087 --> 00:10:23,287 Speaker 2: Even It's a very different life to the life I 238 00:10:23,327 --> 00:10:26,527 Speaker 2: lived up to three years ago, but I love it. 239 00:10:28,967 --> 00:10:31,327 Speaker 1: Was there a time when you went, Okay, we're going 240 00:10:31,367 --> 00:10:33,527 Speaker 1: to give it twelve months and we're going to reassess 241 00:10:33,567 --> 00:10:36,167 Speaker 1: on this date. Like I imagine that re signing, leases 242 00:10:36,207 --> 00:10:39,207 Speaker 1: and stuff were a bit of an in built inflection 243 00:10:39,327 --> 00:10:40,647 Speaker 1: point to decide. 244 00:10:40,327 --> 00:10:41,847 Speaker 2: They were and when we decided whether or not we 245 00:10:41,847 --> 00:10:44,047 Speaker 2: were going to buy, so we had a flat and 246 00:10:44,087 --> 00:10:45,487 Speaker 2: cugi wh when I say we had it, we had 247 00:10:45,487 --> 00:10:47,847 Speaker 2: a big mortgage on a flatten Cuidji. There was a 248 00:10:47,887 --> 00:10:51,487 Speaker 2: decision about whether or not we were going to sell 249 00:10:51,527 --> 00:10:54,047 Speaker 2: it or whether we were going to buy down there, 250 00:10:54,287 --> 00:10:57,807 Speaker 2: and that was probably the big like cutting the cord decision. 251 00:10:58,847 --> 00:11:00,287 Speaker 2: And the thing is is I was thinking about this 252 00:11:00,367 --> 00:11:02,327 Speaker 2: recently for an interview that I did for mid with 253 00:11:02,407 --> 00:11:04,407 Speaker 2: this woman called Catherine May, and it was about burnout 254 00:11:04,407 --> 00:11:06,247 Speaker 2: and she had written this book called Wintering that I 255 00:11:06,327 --> 00:11:09,207 Speaker 2: read when I first moved there, and it's about retreat 256 00:11:09,327 --> 00:11:11,607 Speaker 2: and restoration and how sometimes in your life you have 257 00:11:11,687 --> 00:11:16,727 Speaker 2: to embrace quiet times winters. That might be because season seasons, 258 00:11:16,767 --> 00:11:19,127 Speaker 2: but it might be because you've had a diagnosis, or 259 00:11:19,407 --> 00:11:23,007 Speaker 2: one of your kids needs you, or you move, or 260 00:11:23,567 --> 00:11:25,887 Speaker 2: you know a million reasons that might mean you have 261 00:11:25,887 --> 00:11:28,087 Speaker 2: a breakdown, a million reasons that might mean you need 262 00:11:28,127 --> 00:11:30,767 Speaker 2: a period of retreat and that you should treat it 263 00:11:30,807 --> 00:11:33,607 Speaker 2: like a winter, like a season, And that's what her 264 00:11:33,647 --> 00:11:36,927 Speaker 2: book is about. The famous book and when I first 265 00:11:37,047 --> 00:11:39,647 Speaker 2: moved there, and I didn't really realize this until I 266 00:11:39,687 --> 00:11:41,687 Speaker 2: was talking to her about how much her book helped me. 267 00:11:42,127 --> 00:11:45,367 Speaker 2: That first few months was really weird because we drove 268 00:11:45,407 --> 00:11:47,407 Speaker 2: out of Sydney and our first thing we'd said to 269 00:11:47,407 --> 00:11:49,407 Speaker 2: our friends is only two hours away in Australia. That's 270 00:11:49,407 --> 00:11:51,247 Speaker 2: not that far, is it. We were like, we'll see 271 00:11:51,247 --> 00:11:53,367 Speaker 2: each other all the time. You'll be up, we'll be down. 272 00:11:53,447 --> 00:11:57,087 Speaker 2: Da da da da da. The gates clang shot on Sydney, 273 00:11:57,527 --> 00:11:59,767 Speaker 2: and we were in this town where we didn't know anyone. 274 00:11:59,807 --> 00:12:02,407 Speaker 2: We knew one family, our friend Stephen Joe, who had 275 00:12:02,407 --> 00:12:04,287 Speaker 2: already lived down there, which is why we used to 276 00:12:04,287 --> 00:12:07,287 Speaker 2: go down. We knew one family, No one could go anywhere. 277 00:12:07,447 --> 00:12:10,487 Speaker 2: We were all in lockdown in this strange town. It 278 00:12:10,567 --> 00:12:13,327 Speaker 2: was just us and I used to walk around and 279 00:12:13,367 --> 00:12:15,767 Speaker 2: around this place we'd moved to with LVR old dog 280 00:12:15,807 --> 00:12:18,687 Speaker 2: and just be like what the fuck? Like, what the 281 00:12:18,687 --> 00:12:21,687 Speaker 2: fuck have we done? And it was very discombobulating. And 282 00:12:21,727 --> 00:12:23,687 Speaker 2: then I read this book, well, I listened to actually, 283 00:12:24,167 --> 00:12:26,087 Speaker 2: and I realized that this was a winter, like it 284 00:12:26,127 --> 00:12:28,327 Speaker 2: was a literal winter, because the winter's down there colder 285 00:12:28,327 --> 00:12:31,647 Speaker 2: than here, so it was a literal winter frosty rogged 286 00:12:31,687 --> 00:12:35,127 Speaker 2: up fire pits. But it was also a period where 287 00:12:35,167 --> 00:12:37,247 Speaker 2: I think we needed to bed in turn to each 288 00:12:37,287 --> 00:12:39,927 Speaker 2: other and really bed in, and I think that's what 289 00:12:39,967 --> 00:12:43,007 Speaker 2: we did. And I remember, as you know, the first 290 00:12:43,047 --> 00:12:46,847 Speaker 2: lockdowns in Sydney were not fun for us in our 291 00:12:46,887 --> 00:12:50,047 Speaker 2: little flat with Billy who had recently been diagnosed and 292 00:12:50,087 --> 00:12:52,087 Speaker 2: who was bouncing off every wall and everything was and 293 00:12:52,127 --> 00:12:54,407 Speaker 2: we were working really really hard because we didn't know 294 00:12:54,927 --> 00:12:57,487 Speaker 2: what was going to happen all those things. So we 295 00:12:57,487 --> 00:13:00,047 Speaker 2: were working, working, working, homeschooling all those things, and was 296 00:13:00,087 --> 00:13:02,407 Speaker 2: so stressful. And I remember being like, I would never 297 00:13:02,447 --> 00:13:05,327 Speaker 2: say that lockdown was good. That experience was different. It 298 00:13:05,407 --> 00:13:07,967 Speaker 2: was a bit scary and isolating, but it was also 299 00:13:08,247 --> 00:13:12,567 Speaker 2: very like grounding and bonding. Yet grounding and bonding, and 300 00:13:12,607 --> 00:13:16,447 Speaker 2: I think that we're probably closer, Brent and I are 301 00:13:16,487 --> 00:13:19,167 Speaker 2: probably close. So we started that's when we moved. There 302 00:13:19,207 --> 00:13:20,647 Speaker 2: was when we started, and also because the kids were 303 00:13:20,687 --> 00:13:22,087 Speaker 2: of an age where we could leave them in the house, 304 00:13:22,127 --> 00:13:23,447 Speaker 2: even if it was just for half an hour to 305 00:13:23,487 --> 00:13:25,647 Speaker 2: walk the dog, that's when we started our ritual of 306 00:13:25,687 --> 00:13:27,447 Speaker 2: our morning dog walks, which I think has been one 307 00:13:27,447 --> 00:13:29,727 Speaker 2: of the best things for our relationship. Every morning we 308 00:13:29,767 --> 00:13:34,047 Speaker 2: walk the dog together. And what I've realized about periods 309 00:13:34,087 --> 00:13:36,407 Speaker 2: of change like that wintering or whatever is you have 310 00:13:36,527 --> 00:13:38,527 Speaker 2: to not rage against it. After a while, you have 311 00:13:38,607 --> 00:13:40,807 Speaker 2: to go, this is what it is now for a 312 00:13:40,807 --> 00:13:42,967 Speaker 2: while and see what it is. And one of our 313 00:13:43,007 --> 00:13:44,927 Speaker 2: friends who's going through something at the minute, I sent 314 00:13:44,927 --> 00:13:47,247 Speaker 2: her that book and I was like, this period is 315 00:13:47,287 --> 00:13:49,367 Speaker 2: going to be quiet, because it has to be quiet. 316 00:13:49,447 --> 00:13:52,127 Speaker 2: But instead of raging and being like, why isn't it. 317 00:13:52,087 --> 00:13:55,607 Speaker 1: Loud, You've got to go this period is quiet and yah. 318 00:13:56,767 --> 00:13:58,327 Speaker 2: So I think we did that down there a bit, 319 00:13:58,367 --> 00:14:00,407 Speaker 2: and then we got quite grounded and the roots began 320 00:14:00,447 --> 00:14:03,847 Speaker 2: to grow. And now our lifetime there isn't hypersocial. But 321 00:14:03,887 --> 00:14:07,407 Speaker 2: the friends we've got are really interesting and different, and 322 00:14:07,447 --> 00:14:09,567 Speaker 2: when we do get together with them, you know, it 323 00:14:09,607 --> 00:14:12,007 Speaker 2: feels nurturing. And then we still see our Sidney people 324 00:14:12,007 --> 00:14:14,087 Speaker 2: all the time because either I'm up here or this 325 00:14:14,167 --> 00:14:17,247 Speaker 2: long weekend, they'll come down and stay and it's been good. 326 00:14:17,327 --> 00:14:20,367 Speaker 2: You've never been to visit me. I know she doesn't 327 00:14:20,407 --> 00:14:23,287 Speaker 2: know where anywhere is outside the city limits. When you moved, 328 00:14:23,447 --> 00:14:26,607 Speaker 2: we had plans to go down and then lockdown happened, and. 329 00:14:26,527 --> 00:14:27,527 Speaker 1: Then it all went to shit. 330 00:14:28,007 --> 00:14:28,887 Speaker 2: I'll get you down there. 331 00:14:29,007 --> 00:14:32,247 Speaker 1: I want to just finish by asking you about the 332 00:14:32,327 --> 00:14:35,327 Speaker 1: lowest moment, if you can share it, where you went 333 00:14:35,647 --> 00:14:38,007 Speaker 1: I don't know if this was a good idea, and 334 00:14:38,047 --> 00:14:41,647 Speaker 1: then also the moment when you went, yeah, this is 335 00:14:41,687 --> 00:14:44,487 Speaker 1: my home. Now I don't feel like I'm a visitor anymore. 336 00:14:44,807 --> 00:14:45,927 Speaker 1: We did the right thing. 337 00:14:46,727 --> 00:14:49,727 Speaker 2: I think in our early days there, when we first 338 00:14:49,767 --> 00:14:52,207 Speaker 2: moved there. We moved to this country town that had 339 00:14:52,567 --> 00:14:55,047 Speaker 2: the house we rented was on this kind of like 340 00:14:55,087 --> 00:14:57,767 Speaker 2: a housing estate, but like a new housing development just 341 00:14:57,847 --> 00:15:00,527 Speaker 2: outside town. And I used to walk, as I say, 342 00:15:00,567 --> 00:15:03,007 Speaker 2: walk the dog around and around there, and I do 343 00:15:03,767 --> 00:15:07,407 Speaker 2: remember thinking, sometimes, these aren't my people. I don't relate 344 00:15:07,447 --> 00:15:10,127 Speaker 2: to any of this, like, you know, without wanting to 345 00:15:10,127 --> 00:15:13,047 Speaker 2: be in any way sort of negative about it. Was like, 346 00:15:13,647 --> 00:15:16,487 Speaker 2: you know, shiny new houses in the countryside and big 347 00:15:17,047 --> 00:15:18,687 Speaker 2: like I don't know, it just felt like this this 348 00:15:18,807 --> 00:15:21,727 Speaker 2: is my world stuff. Yeah, this isn't my world. These 349 00:15:21,727 --> 00:15:27,727 Speaker 2: aren't my people, and you make like value judgments about that. 350 00:15:28,047 --> 00:15:31,567 Speaker 2: And it is an adjustment to be like I can't 351 00:15:32,047 --> 00:15:35,007 Speaker 2: just go and pick up a Vietnamese salad or you know, 352 00:15:35,047 --> 00:15:36,807 Speaker 2: I don't know whatever, you know, that kind of stuff. 353 00:15:37,207 --> 00:15:39,327 Speaker 2: And I do remember thinking we may have made a 354 00:15:39,367 --> 00:15:42,807 Speaker 2: real mistake. I was proved wrong about the thing about 355 00:15:42,847 --> 00:15:45,647 Speaker 2: not my people, because we've met some amazing people down there. 356 00:15:45,727 --> 00:15:47,567 Speaker 2: We don't live there anymore. In that place, we did 357 00:15:47,647 --> 00:15:51,047 Speaker 2: find somewhere that was more us. But I know lots 358 00:15:51,047 --> 00:15:52,487 Speaker 2: of people who do live there and it's a great 359 00:15:52,487 --> 00:15:54,687 Speaker 2: place to live. Like, I think it's kind of made 360 00:15:54,727 --> 00:15:58,607 Speaker 2: me more broad minded in a way, more accepting of 361 00:15:58,807 --> 00:16:02,687 Speaker 2: people's different priorities. But I definitely was a bit panicky, 362 00:16:02,727 --> 00:16:05,567 Speaker 2: and I used to get a bit panicky and be like, oh, 363 00:16:05,607 --> 00:16:07,487 Speaker 2: and especially when we had to make the decision about 364 00:16:07,487 --> 00:16:09,807 Speaker 2: whether we were going to like cut off that opportunity 365 00:16:09,807 --> 00:16:11,727 Speaker 2: to come back if we're going to sell our place 366 00:16:11,727 --> 00:16:13,367 Speaker 2: in Sydney, which we had to do to buy where 367 00:16:13,367 --> 00:16:16,367 Speaker 2: we were going to buy, It was like, oh my god. 368 00:16:16,287 --> 00:16:18,607 Speaker 1: Yeah, because once you're out of the Sydney probably. 369 00:16:18,447 --> 00:16:23,207 Speaker 2: Not unless something earth shattering happens. And so there was that, 370 00:16:23,327 --> 00:16:26,647 Speaker 2: and then I think that I knew I was really 371 00:16:26,807 --> 00:16:30,927 Speaker 2: at home there. Well, I think it's a mixture of things. 372 00:16:30,967 --> 00:16:34,727 Speaker 2: It's that I've really bonded with, like it sounds so wanky, 373 00:16:34,767 --> 00:16:37,087 Speaker 2: but like the landscape, I love being in it. I 374 00:16:37,127 --> 00:16:38,167 Speaker 2: feel like I'm part of it. 375 00:16:38,207 --> 00:16:38,767 Speaker 1: I love it. 376 00:16:39,367 --> 00:16:42,367 Speaker 2: But also the pattern of our socializing has shifted because 377 00:16:42,407 --> 00:16:44,127 Speaker 2: we don't go out to restaurants at night much in 378 00:16:44,167 --> 00:16:46,167 Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. But we'll go to a friend's 379 00:16:46,167 --> 00:16:49,207 Speaker 2: house for a lunch and everyone's got more room and 380 00:16:49,247 --> 00:16:52,327 Speaker 2: you're in, you know, so the kids are running around 381 00:16:52,927 --> 00:16:55,407 Speaker 2: and you're having like a nice lunch outside with people, 382 00:16:55,407 --> 00:16:58,007 Speaker 2: and they're interesting people. And sometimes you look around and go, 383 00:16:58,207 --> 00:17:00,807 Speaker 2: this was a life that I didn't I hadn't pictured 384 00:17:01,087 --> 00:17:01,447 Speaker 2: you know. 385 00:17:01,487 --> 00:17:02,647 Speaker 1: That I didn't know I could have. 386 00:17:02,847 --> 00:17:05,407 Speaker 2: And also my shed. We haven't talked about that, but 387 00:17:05,447 --> 00:17:07,887 Speaker 2: my riding shed. You know what, It's funny because I 388 00:17:07,927 --> 00:17:10,447 Speaker 2: wrote my first books, I didn't have a place to write, 389 00:17:10,647 --> 00:17:12,567 Speaker 2: so I would just write them on my bed or 390 00:17:12,647 --> 00:17:16,207 Speaker 2: in a library or in the office or whatever. And 391 00:17:16,527 --> 00:17:19,087 Speaker 2: now I've built myself a little writing hut. And the 392 00:17:19,087 --> 00:17:20,767 Speaker 2: weird thing about it is, I don't know that it 393 00:17:20,767 --> 00:17:22,807 Speaker 2: makes me more productive. In some ways, it doesn't. I 394 00:17:22,847 --> 00:17:24,687 Speaker 2: go in there and I'm like, oh, I love my shed, 395 00:17:24,727 --> 00:17:26,847 Speaker 2: and then I'll be like pottering about my shed. 396 00:17:27,407 --> 00:17:28,287 Speaker 1: Fiddling with things. 397 00:17:28,527 --> 00:17:31,647 Speaker 2: We all know that writers at the world's worst procrastinators. 398 00:17:32,127 --> 00:17:34,767 Speaker 2: But I always said that's what I wanted. I removed 399 00:17:34,767 --> 00:17:36,887 Speaker 2: one say And that's one of the things I've learned 400 00:17:36,927 --> 00:17:39,807 Speaker 2: about being older and wiser is you can get a 401 00:17:39,807 --> 00:17:42,127 Speaker 2: lot of the things you wanted. It won't necessarily make 402 00:17:42,167 --> 00:17:44,487 Speaker 2: you happy that you'll still have the same problems that 403 00:17:44,527 --> 00:17:46,247 Speaker 2: you had, because that whole thing of everywhere you go, 404 00:17:46,287 --> 00:17:50,647 Speaker 2: there you are. But sometimes you can breathe out and go, Wow, 405 00:17:50,807 --> 00:17:52,487 Speaker 2: the things that I for all that time, I was 406 00:17:52,487 --> 00:17:53,807 Speaker 2: thinking I want this, and I want that, and I 407 00:17:53,807 --> 00:17:56,407 Speaker 2: want this and I want that. Now I can sit 408 00:17:56,447 --> 00:17:58,687 Speaker 2: in my little shed sometimes and go like, breathe out 409 00:17:59,007 --> 00:18:02,967 Speaker 2: and go, I've got some of those things, which is nice. 410 00:18:03,607 --> 00:18:05,527 Speaker 1: Out Louders, thank you so much for listening to this 411 00:18:05,607 --> 00:18:08,487 Speaker 1: special Hot Pod Summer episode. Now you know the secret 412 00:18:08,727 --> 00:18:11,487 Speaker 1: of Holly's we should have called it Holy's Secret Garden. 413 00:18:12,087 --> 00:18:14,287 Speaker 1: We want to hear from you. Have you made a 414 00:18:14,327 --> 00:18:16,607 Speaker 1: big move? Are you thinking about it? Has it been 415 00:18:16,647 --> 00:18:19,007 Speaker 1: for the best? Jump in the Outlauders Facebook group and 416 00:18:19,127 --> 00:18:21,007 Speaker 1: share your story with us and we'll be back in 417 00:18:21,047 --> 00:18:24,207 Speaker 1: your ears tomorrow.