WEBVTT - MID: Amanda Keller on The Life Saving Power Of Friendships

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Mama Miya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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<v Speaker 2>that this podcast is recorded on.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi Kateline Brooke here dropping into your feed with a

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<v Speaker 3>very special gift. And I say gift because what you're

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<v Speaker 3>about to hear will fill you with all of the

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<v Speaker 3>warm feelings and it should make you want to call

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<v Speaker 3>your best friend. This is an episode of Holly Wainwright's

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<v Speaker 3>podcast Mid her guests Oh My Goodness, Amanda Keller A

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<v Speaker 3>Piece of Gold, and her beautiful best friend Anita McGregor.

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<v Speaker 3>You'll know Amanda from her many decades as an Australian

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<v Speaker 3>television and radio presenter, comedian, writer, actor and journalist, and

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<v Speaker 3>you'll likely be meeting her best friend, Anita, a forensic psychologist,

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<v Speaker 3>for the first time, but you'll very quickly understand why

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<v Speaker 3>these two have been inseparable since they first met seventeen

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<v Speaker 3>years ago. This conversation goes everywhere from the things your

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<v Speaker 3>friends can hold your hand true and what they can't,

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<v Speaker 3>and when or eve you should ever offer your best

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<v Speaker 3>friend feedback. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Mead.

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<v Speaker 2>I met my soulmate when I was eleven. The way

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<v Speaker 2>I remember it is that our respective mothers banned us

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<v Speaker 2>from going to some party or other, and instead it

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<v Speaker 2>was suggested that we have a sleepover together. We were furious.

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<v Speaker 2>Forty two years later and any time I get to

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<v Speaker 2>have a sleepover with my best and oldest friend Lindsey,

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<v Speaker 2>I will take it. It doesn't happen often because we live

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<v Speaker 2>on opposite sides of the world. When I was twenty three,

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<v Speaker 2>Lindsay was at London's Heathrow Airport to wave me off

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<v Speaker 2>as I traveled to Australia for a year long traveling adventure.

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<v Speaker 2>We cried and we cried, and that year has turned

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<v Speaker 2>into thirty thirty years. And yet if we get the

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<v Speaker 2>opportunity to spend even a few days together anywhere in

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<v Speaker 2>the world, those days are worth years, and we still

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<v Speaker 2>cry at airports. I also, as a fifty three year

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<v Speaker 2>old woman, still have regular sleepovers with another great maid

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<v Speaker 2>of mine, Penny, my treasure weekends away with a pick

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<v Speaker 2>and Mix bag of my closest friends. I have mates

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<v Speaker 2>I message daily and beloved ones I don't speak to

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<v Speaker 2>for months. I have new friends I already can't imagine

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<v Speaker 2>life without, and friends I share professional passions with to

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<v Speaker 2>whom I owe a great deal. I'm bragging now and

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<v Speaker 2>you know it. Because friendship, if you're lucky enough to

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<v Speaker 2>have it in your life, is the greatest privilege of

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<v Speaker 2>all and the thing that makes an enormous difference to

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<v Speaker 2>our happiness and our well being. And one of the

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<v Speaker 2>profound joys of getting older is getting to write new

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<v Speaker 2>pages into your friendship histories and mark birthdays. The losses

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<v Speaker 2>and the struggles, and the splits and the bad days

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<v Speaker 2>all scroll out across pages that bound together tell us

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<v Speaker 2>everything about ourselves and each other. I also have ex friends.

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<v Speaker 2>You probably do too, relationships that ended mid sentence, leaving

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<v Speaker 2>unsatisfying blank pages, and I've mourned them like old lovers,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've wrestled with how to heal rifts may be

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<v Speaker 2>left too long to revive. Because friends are the loves

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<v Speaker 2>of our lives, as the iconic, aspirational, sometimes toxic Carrie

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<v Speaker 2>Bradshaw's Girl Gang told us back when we were young,

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<v Speaker 2>and in the manner of loves of our lives, they

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<v Speaker 2>run the gammer of being the best and worst of us.

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<v Speaker 2>They lift you higher, and they break your fucking heart,

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<v Speaker 2>and respect must be paid here's a raised, steaming tea mug.

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<v Speaker 2>To the friend you can itch your hormone patch in

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<v Speaker 2>front of, who will walk beside you in your stupid

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<v Speaker 2>weighted vest, who will congratulate you for your teeny weeny

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<v Speaker 2>tomato harvest and agree that your partner is a dickhead

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<v Speaker 2>today and a hero tomorrow. Who sees you through your job,

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<v Speaker 2>through your children, through what your body's doing today. Who

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<v Speaker 2>knows your mum's not been well. Who knows when your

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<v Speaker 2>next appointment is. Who knows when to ask if you're

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<v Speaker 2>okay and when to shut the hell up. Who dropped

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<v Speaker 2>the meme of your dreams in the group chat on

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<v Speaker 2>a bad day, and will sing in the car with

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<v Speaker 2>you at the top of your terrible voices when life

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<v Speaker 2>feels right. The friends who know the backstory, who indulge

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<v Speaker 2>your tantrums just enough. To the deep grown up friendships

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<v Speaker 2>and the ones forged over silly shared enthusiasms. To the

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<v Speaker 2>ones who live next door and the ones on the

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<v Speaker 2>other side of the world, and the ones who aren't

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<v Speaker 2>here anymore. Soul mats all, Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright, and

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<v Speaker 2>I am mid midlife, mid family, mid midlife crisis Number eight.

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<v Speaker 2>We've been away for a while, and now we're back.

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<v Speaker 2>This is season four, a mid the show for gen

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<v Speaker 2>X women who are anything but, and over the next

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<v Speaker 2>eight episodes, I'm going to be talking to grown up women,

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<v Speaker 2>some of whom you know, some you'll be meeting for

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<v Speaker 2>the first time, who have great stories and spot on

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<v Speaker 2>insights into the things that make a life. I always

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<v Speaker 2>say we've got no time or tolerance for small talk

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<v Speaker 2>by the time we get here, but that doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 2>everything is heavy, quite the opposite. I know that right now,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm searching for conversations that cheer me, that soothe me,

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<v Speaker 2>that make me laugh, make me hopeful, distract me from

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<v Speaker 2>the enormous and tiny challenges that we're all wading through

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<v Speaker 2>every day in our real lives and out in the

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<v Speaker 2>big scary world. Some of the conversations we've got for

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<v Speaker 2>you here are about things like shamefree sex, and falling

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<v Speaker 2>in love again after a big split, about reinvention after

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<v Speaker 2>a massive career crash, about caring for our aging parents,

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<v Speaker 2>and about hair and a lot more too. So I

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<v Speaker 2>hope you I'm going to love season four. But today

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<v Speaker 2>I'm having a conversation about something I've been dying to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about with people I've been dying to talk to.

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<v Speaker 2>I think you probably all know who Amanda Keller is.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you really quickly just in case, that she's

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<v Speaker 2>an accomplished and experienced media everything. She's a TV host

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<v Speaker 2>and an award winning rating topping breakfast radio legend. But

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to stop talking because what I've got Amanda

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<v Speaker 2>to come in and tell us about was none of that, really,

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<v Speaker 2>even though we obviously go there a little bit. I

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<v Speaker 2>invited her and her best friend to come in and

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<v Speaker 2>talk about friendship. The person sitting beside Amanda in this

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<v Speaker 2>conversation is her equally accomplished and impressive best friend, Anita McGregor.

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<v Speaker 2>The two make their own podcasts together, which you'll hear

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<v Speaker 2>about obviously, but I predict that five minutes into this

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<v Speaker 2>you'll be as obsessed with Anita as I am, and

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<v Speaker 2>with their friendship. And now I really am going to

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<v Speaker 2>stop talking, because the first thing I asked Amanda and

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<v Speaker 2>Nita to do was to introduce each other through a

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<v Speaker 2>best friend's eyes to you.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, Anita McGregor, by profession, is a forensic psychologist. I

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<v Speaker 4>only mentioned the profession is because it gives her an

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<v Speaker 4>insight into society that many of us wouldn't normally have,

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<v Speaker 4>and you do it with such kindness. I'm always amazed

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<v Speaker 4>at the respect you give your clients. These are people

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<v Speaker 4>who are before the courts, people who have transgressed, people

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<v Speaker 4>who might be major sex offenders, people who are living

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<v Speaker 4>really tough lives.

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<v Speaker 5>And the delicacy with.

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<v Speaker 4>Which you treat them and the respect you give them

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<v Speaker 4>and their place in society, I find is a very

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<v Speaker 4>refreshing take. So that's why you're a very interesting person

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<v Speaker 4>to have in the room to reflect on anyone talking

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<v Speaker 4>about society, life, rules, justice.

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<v Speaker 5>You're a great calming voice.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 5>And she's a scrag scrag favorite strat favorites.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the pressure is on them.

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<v Speaker 1>Something nice about that wasn't what was in my head.

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<v Speaker 6>This is my friend Amanda Keller, who, gosh, I would

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<v Speaker 6>imagine everyone in Australia knows of you that you are

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<v Speaker 6>a radio broadcaster, you are a TV star. You are

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<v Speaker 6>but you are also more than that. You are a wife,

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<v Speaker 6>you are a mother, you are a great friend, an

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<v Speaker 6>intrepid walker with me.

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<v Speaker 1>You are all those things and.

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<v Speaker 6>The thing that I think that is the most amazing

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<v Speaker 6>quality of you is that when people ask you know,

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<v Speaker 6>oh you know Amanda Keller, you know what she like?

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<v Speaker 6>And I think my response is generally, you know how

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<v Speaker 6>kind and generous she seems, you know on the air

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<v Speaker 6>on the TV. That's exactly what you get. She is

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<v Speaker 6>kind and she is generous and I love her.

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<v Speaker 5>Oh it's lovely.

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<v Speaker 2>And she didn't wood, not even once. Beautiful and nada.

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<v Speaker 2>You're from Canada, I am. And you met Amanda quite

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<v Speaker 2>early in your time in Australia, within about a month.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you tell me how we met? Story?

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<v Speaker 6>Oh, so we meet cute, I meet cute. Yes, so

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<v Speaker 6>we had moved here. It was supposed to be like

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<v Speaker 6>a two year adventure. My husband had been offered a

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<v Speaker 6>contract to work and I thought, oh, it's going to

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<v Speaker 6>be just such a fun thing.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't know a soul.

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<v Speaker 6>I'd never been here, and we had rented a place

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<v Speaker 6>in Coujie at the recommendation of one of my husband's workmates,

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<v Speaker 6>and we had just got all the shipment in. I

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<v Speaker 6>was exhausted and I went for a massage with a

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<v Speaker 6>friend of ours, Jackie Racist, and she said, Oh, you're

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<v Speaker 6>new here, why don't you come there's a Dancing with

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<v Speaker 6>the Stars on which I didn't know. I had no

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<v Speaker 6>idea what the show was. And my friend and Amanda

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<v Speaker 6>is dancing in it. Why don't you come over and

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<v Speaker 6>watch this? And I thought this is weird, but I

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<v Speaker 6>went and I watched.

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<v Speaker 4>Because you didn't know Jackie either, I don't know how

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<v Speaker 4>jack here you had to step over the friendship divide

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<v Speaker 4>with her to beginning.

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<v Speaker 6>Yes, absolutely, And so saw you on Dancing with the Stars.

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<v Speaker 6>Had no idea, and then you invited us out to

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<v Speaker 6>it was a charity thing, and I went out and

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<v Speaker 6>met you there and all these people were pointing and going,

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<v Speaker 6>that's Amanda Keller.

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<v Speaker 1>I had no idea.

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<v Speaker 6>And then, you know, so we just kind of got

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<v Speaker 6>to know each other that way, with me just being

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<v Speaker 6>completely naive to you know, the world of Amanda Keller,

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<v Speaker 6>and which was really actually kind of a nice way

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<v Speaker 6>to do it, because I, you know, I think I

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<v Speaker 6>would have probably been intimidated or weirded out or something,

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<v Speaker 6>and I just wasn't. And so yeah, and then we

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<v Speaker 6>started started dating friendship.

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<v Speaker 5>Dating friendship.

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<v Speaker 2>When you're new in a new country, you have some

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<v Speaker 2>friendship vacancies that need filling.

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<v Speaker 6>Oh, It's a scary thing is on the one hand,

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<v Speaker 6>there's just this I can be whoever I want. But

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<v Speaker 6>on the other hand, it's like nobody knows. Like those

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<v Speaker 6>friendships that you have with people that you've known since

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<v Speaker 6>you've been kids, or university or kids, you know, when

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<v Speaker 6>you've had kids, and there's this kind of shorthand that

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<v Speaker 6>you have as a friend, and I didn't have any

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<v Speaker 6>of that. So there it was a double edged sword

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<v Speaker 6>for for quite a while.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like nobody knows me, and it's like nobody knows me,

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<v Speaker 2>but Amanda, you presumably didn't necessarily have very many vacancies.

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<v Speaker 2>How did Anita get.

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<v Speaker 5>Questions? She's got an enormous chick.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm for assistance.

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<v Speaker 4>I just think there was some hugely common ground in

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<v Speaker 4>our nature's maybe because I don't actually know how to

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<v Speaker 4>answer that question.

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<v Speaker 5>We would start to.

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<v Speaker 4>Go for walks as a group, but as a group

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<v Speaker 4>we would socialize, and then you and I kind of

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<v Speaker 4>splinted off at some point and we'd go for weekly

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<v Speaker 4>walks and just talk. And I don't know how to

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<v Speaker 4>be more specific than that. It kind of just evolved

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<v Speaker 4>really that it wasn't like we were starstruck with each

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<v Speaker 4>other when we saw each other and fell in love.

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<v Speaker 5>It just evolved.

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<v Speaker 4>And often in those big groups you form your little

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<v Speaker 4>factions within them. Factions is a harsh word, but your

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<v Speaker 4>little friendship groups within them. And we kind of splint

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<v Speaker 4>it off and made one of those a little satellite.

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<v Speaker 2>And was there a moment when you kind of went, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>we're definitely going to be friends or was it just

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<v Speaker 2>that slow burn? Oh I'm gonna I need to call Anita.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to tell Anita that like that kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>I really think it was a slow burn.

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<v Speaker 5>I think so too.

0:13:03.725 --> 0:13:07.245
<v Speaker 4>And it's interesting how much when people meet Anita as

0:13:07.285 --> 0:13:10.645
<v Speaker 4>a psychologist for you, but I reckon you. Probably a

0:13:11.005 --> 0:13:13.845
<v Speaker 4>see of people saying, don't analyze me, thinking that that's

0:13:13.885 --> 0:13:16.885
<v Speaker 4>what she'll do. And I laugh when I hear that.

0:13:17.005 --> 0:13:19.405
<v Speaker 4>But at the same time, I find it so interesting

0:13:19.445 --> 0:13:21.605
<v Speaker 4>that I blab about every single thing to you in

0:13:21.645 --> 0:13:26.845
<v Speaker 4>my life and you answer with friendship, never with I

0:13:26.925 --> 0:13:30.325
<v Speaker 4>never feel your sounds terrible, never being professional.

0:13:30.885 --> 0:13:36.805
<v Speaker 1>Your sometimes I really am.

0:13:37.045 --> 0:13:39.565
<v Speaker 4>There's never a you know what you should do, there's

0:13:39.645 --> 0:13:41.925
<v Speaker 4>never any of I never think, oh, that's right, you're

0:13:41.965 --> 0:13:45.685
<v Speaker 4>a psychologist. I never ever feel that we meet as friends,

0:13:46.125 --> 0:13:48.205
<v Speaker 4>and I don't know how you separate the two.

0:13:48.205 --> 0:13:49.085
<v Speaker 5>I don't know how you do that.

0:13:50.245 --> 0:13:53.165
<v Speaker 6>I you know, I think for the most part the

0:13:54.125 --> 0:13:57.365
<v Speaker 6>it well, because I've been a psychologist for over thirty years,

0:13:57.405 --> 0:13:59.845
<v Speaker 6>like half my life, more than half my life.

0:14:00.245 --> 0:14:02.685
<v Speaker 1>That it's you know, just the.

0:14:05.205 --> 0:14:08.485
<v Speaker 6>That main idea about I'm going to listen is, you know,

0:14:08.565 --> 0:14:10.765
<v Speaker 6>that's kind of my life as a psychologist, but it's

0:14:10.805 --> 0:14:13.445
<v Speaker 6>also my life as a friend. And I you know,

0:14:13.485 --> 0:14:15.845
<v Speaker 6>I don't give advice to my clients either, really, so

0:14:16.245 --> 0:14:19.085
<v Speaker 6>it feels pretty comfortable in doing that.

0:14:20.165 --> 0:14:22.125
<v Speaker 2>I think some people would be really jealous that you're

0:14:22.125 --> 0:14:26.565
<v Speaker 2>best friend's a psychologists, because you would imagine that you'd

0:14:26.565 --> 0:14:29.485
<v Speaker 2>be like, you know, we all go through things, particularly

0:14:29.485 --> 0:14:34.845
<v Speaker 2>midlife can get very rolling pastry, and you're like free therapy.

0:14:34.885 --> 0:14:38.485
<v Speaker 5>But it's interesting, it never feels like therapy.

0:14:38.525 --> 0:14:41.605
<v Speaker 4>But though maybe subconsciously, and I don't know if it's

0:14:41.605 --> 0:14:45.045
<v Speaker 4>subconscious for you, but maybe you're like a border Collie

0:14:45.085 --> 0:14:48.485
<v Speaker 4>like my dog that kind of just subtly hurts me somewhere. Yeah,

0:14:48.525 --> 0:14:49.685
<v Speaker 4>and I'm not even aware of it.

0:14:49.805 --> 0:14:52.965
<v Speaker 2>I was listening to your show recently to double a Chattery,

0:14:53.405 --> 0:14:55.445
<v Speaker 2>and I think Amanda you were talking about and I've

0:14:55.445 --> 0:14:58.765
<v Speaker 2>been doing this too, reframing I have to with I

0:14:59.165 --> 0:15:02.765
<v Speaker 2>get to gratitude. And I was listening to your conversation,

0:15:03.365 --> 0:15:05.325
<v Speaker 2>and if I was in your shoes, Amanda, I would

0:15:05.325 --> 0:15:07.725
<v Speaker 2>have been looking for approval from Anita on that like that.

0:15:07.845 --> 0:15:10.325
<v Speaker 2>She goes, that's very good. I know.

0:15:10.725 --> 0:15:13.685
<v Speaker 7>I find myself saying to her, I read this incredible

0:15:13.765 --> 0:15:18.645
<v Speaker 7>theme in Dolly magazine, like I must tell you the

0:15:18.645 --> 0:15:21.725
<v Speaker 7>most basic psychological things I've read and you and like,

0:15:21.765 --> 0:15:23.765
<v Speaker 7>I've been seeing this incredible person. She said, I should

0:15:23.805 --> 0:15:26.885
<v Speaker 7>try this and you must go God.

0:15:27.605 --> 0:15:29.965
<v Speaker 2>But you were great, Anita, because you said something like

0:15:30.045 --> 0:15:32.045
<v Speaker 2>and how's it going for you? Like, which is a

0:15:32.565 --> 0:15:35.085
<v Speaker 2>therapistic thing to say in a way, but like, but

0:15:35.205 --> 0:15:37.805
<v Speaker 2>exactly what you need and you are like, it's helping,

0:15:37.925 --> 0:15:41.565
<v Speaker 2>it's helping. So I imagine that that is it's not

0:15:41.645 --> 0:15:44.125
<v Speaker 2>a deliberate dynamic, but it must be great.

0:15:44.805 --> 0:15:47.645
<v Speaker 4>But I never feel self conscious saying to Anita the dumbest,

0:15:47.845 --> 0:15:51.365
<v Speaker 4>most basic way I cope with anything, and you never

0:15:51.445 --> 0:15:53.965
<v Speaker 4>make me feel judged, and sometimes like it's only now

0:15:54.005 --> 0:15:57.205
<v Speaker 4>talking to you, Holly, I think, yeah, actually, how embarrassing

0:15:57.485 --> 0:16:00.725
<v Speaker 4>that I've said to Anita here's an interesting psychology you

0:16:00.765 --> 0:16:01.565
<v Speaker 4>probably haven't.

0:16:01.325 --> 0:16:05.365
<v Speaker 5>Heard Of't be grateful.

0:16:05.445 --> 0:16:09.925
<v Speaker 4>Apparently, it's really let me introduce her to it, Anita can't.

0:16:10.045 --> 0:16:10.845
<v Speaker 1>Let's try that.

0:16:11.165 --> 0:16:14.005
<v Speaker 2>Well, at the risk of doing the same thing to

0:16:14.005 --> 0:16:18.445
<v Speaker 2>it now, I was going to say that there's a

0:16:18.445 --> 0:16:21.045
<v Speaker 2>lot of studies out there that friendship is absolutely crucial

0:16:21.085 --> 0:16:23.045
<v Speaker 2>to our mental health, right and connection, and there's a

0:16:23.125 --> 0:16:26.725
<v Speaker 2>lot of sort of handringing about that. Maybe as a community,

0:16:26.725 --> 0:16:29.445
<v Speaker 2>as a world, we're getting less connected and we're finding

0:16:29.485 --> 0:16:33.525
<v Speaker 2>friendships harder because we fear the judgment that comes with it,

0:16:33.605 --> 0:16:35.525
<v Speaker 2>or we're not sure how to connect, or we're just

0:16:35.645 --> 0:16:39.365
<v Speaker 2>not in the same physical spaces to connect. I mean,

0:16:39.445 --> 0:16:42.965
<v Speaker 2>what do you inter One of the things that mid

0:16:43.005 --> 0:16:45.245
<v Speaker 2>listeners tell me all the time is it's their girlfriends often.

0:16:45.285 --> 0:16:47.525
<v Speaker 2>I mean, they're friends, but their girlfriends often that save them,

0:16:47.525 --> 0:16:50.445
<v Speaker 2>that get them through the hard times. Do you think

0:16:50.485 --> 0:16:53.285
<v Speaker 2>that we're in a crisis of connection? And are we

0:16:53.405 --> 0:16:55.325
<v Speaker 2>right to think that our friendships are the things that

0:16:55.405 --> 0:16:56.245
<v Speaker 2>keep us saying.

0:16:56.285 --> 0:16:57.765
<v Speaker 6>There's a big part of me that would just like

0:16:57.845 --> 0:17:00.085
<v Speaker 6>to answer, yes, it's a crisis. We need you know,

0:17:00.525 --> 0:17:03.605
<v Speaker 6>we've really disconnected and all that. But I was actually

0:17:03.645 --> 0:17:07.885
<v Speaker 6>just recently reading some research that really delighted me that

0:17:08.085 --> 0:17:11.085
<v Speaker 6>was talking about. It was mostly about adolescent mental health,

0:17:11.565 --> 0:17:14.805
<v Speaker 6>but what they were talking about is that often we're

0:17:14.845 --> 0:17:16.525
<v Speaker 6>looking about like how many friends do we have?

0:17:16.645 --> 0:17:18.925
<v Speaker 1>And you know, but the.

0:17:18.805 --> 0:17:22.685
<v Speaker 6>Research actually is much more supportive of having one or

0:17:22.725 --> 0:17:27.125
<v Speaker 6>two really good friends, and because once you get into

0:17:27.245 --> 0:17:30.285
<v Speaker 6>a bigger like any more than three or four and

0:17:30.325 --> 0:17:32.845
<v Speaker 6>we've all been there where you get into a bigger

0:17:32.885 --> 0:17:35.645
<v Speaker 6>friendship group and it does split into like not I

0:17:35.685 --> 0:17:38.805
<v Speaker 6>know you were saying factions, and sometimes it is, but

0:17:38.925 --> 0:17:41.565
<v Speaker 6>it's you know, it's like she likes me better, and

0:17:41.765 --> 0:17:43.245
<v Speaker 6>you know, you've get all the way left.

0:17:44.085 --> 0:17:45.725
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't invited on that wall.

0:17:45.525 --> 0:17:48.965
<v Speaker 6>Course, yeah yeah, or you know they've they've organized to

0:17:49.005 --> 0:17:52.325
<v Speaker 6>do something and I'm not there, And especially with social media,

0:17:52.325 --> 0:17:56.285
<v Speaker 6>that can be so hurtful. So I actually was really

0:17:57.005 --> 0:18:00.845
<v Speaker 6>encouraged by the idea that, yes, there is a disconnection,

0:18:01.085 --> 0:18:03.525
<v Speaker 6>and yet the answer isn't I need one hundred friends

0:18:03.565 --> 0:18:06.005
<v Speaker 6>and I need to be out and doing things every night.

0:18:06.405 --> 0:18:10.725
<v Speaker 6>The idea, sometimes, I think, is more about finding those

0:18:11.245 --> 0:18:14.485
<v Speaker 6>those opportunities to get deeper with somebody, to be a

0:18:14.565 --> 0:18:17.485
<v Speaker 6>little bit vulnerable with somebody, and to see whether you

0:18:17.525 --> 0:18:20.245
<v Speaker 6>can create that friendship you know, like you know, sometimes

0:18:20.245 --> 0:18:22.685
<v Speaker 6>it's not you know, just falling in love in a friendship,

0:18:22.685 --> 0:18:25.925
<v Speaker 6>but it's sometimes it is that slow burn. And you know,

0:18:25.965 --> 0:18:28.485
<v Speaker 6>there's there's also riches that research that says you need

0:18:28.525 --> 0:18:31.365
<v Speaker 6>to spend about one thousand hours with somebody to actually

0:18:31.405 --> 0:18:35.285
<v Speaker 6>create that depth, that that history with each other.

0:18:35.285 --> 0:18:37.245
<v Speaker 4>It's one thousand dollars a lot puts. What's that in

0:18:37.285 --> 0:18:39.845
<v Speaker 4>a context of a week or a year. I can't

0:18:39.845 --> 0:18:40.645
<v Speaker 4>do the meths on it.

0:18:40.725 --> 0:18:41.965
<v Speaker 6>I don't know, And I mean I don't know how

0:18:41.965 --> 0:18:44.245
<v Speaker 6>they count that. I mean, it is it just a

0:18:44.285 --> 0:18:45.085
<v Speaker 6>text to each other?

0:18:45.165 --> 0:18:45.805
<v Speaker 1>Does that count?

0:18:45.845 --> 0:18:45.965
<v Speaker 5>But?

0:18:46.285 --> 0:18:48.005
<v Speaker 6>I mean I think that we can connect in a

0:18:48.005 --> 0:18:49.485
<v Speaker 6>lot of different ways now.

0:18:49.445 --> 0:18:54.845
<v Speaker 2>Because people worry about their friendship connections faltering as life changes. Right,

0:18:54.925 --> 0:18:56.685
<v Speaker 2>so you two have been friends for the best part

0:18:56.725 --> 0:19:00.485
<v Speaker 2>of two decades. Right, busy people, big jobs in different ways.

0:19:01.085 --> 0:19:04.205
<v Speaker 2>How practically do you stay connected to your friends? Is

0:19:04.285 --> 0:19:09.885
<v Speaker 2>like little kids to big kids, Career shifts, geographical moves

0:19:09.965 --> 0:19:13.725
<v Speaker 2>like are you schedule people? Are you like it's every Wednesday?

0:19:13.965 --> 0:19:14.885
<v Speaker 2>I mean, how do you do that?

0:19:14.925 --> 0:19:15.885
<v Speaker 5>It's interesting.

0:19:17.405 --> 0:19:19.525
<v Speaker 4>Before I get to how we do it, I often

0:19:19.565 --> 0:19:21.725
<v Speaker 4>feel anxiety around the fact I'm not very good at

0:19:21.725 --> 0:19:24.405
<v Speaker 4>it with a lot of people and a text may

0:19:24.445 --> 0:19:26.845
<v Speaker 4>come up let's get together, and I have a panic

0:19:26.885 --> 0:19:29.965
<v Speaker 4>over it. I never do that with you, Anita, And

0:19:30.005 --> 0:19:31.765
<v Speaker 4>there are some friends where you go, I'll get to

0:19:31.805 --> 0:19:34.885
<v Speaker 4>you and I can get to you, or let's put

0:19:35.045 --> 0:19:37.085
<v Speaker 4>it in the diary for the future. I'm not really

0:19:37.165 --> 0:19:39.805
<v Speaker 4>I don't have time right now that can fill me

0:19:39.845 --> 0:19:44.365
<v Speaker 4>with anxiety, so I can limit my work. But sometimes

0:19:44.405 --> 0:19:46.565
<v Speaker 4>it's the social stuff that I find I'm not very

0:19:46.605 --> 0:19:49.205
<v Speaker 4>good at limiting, and that makes me panic.

0:19:50.125 --> 0:19:51.445
<v Speaker 2>I feel the same way.

0:19:51.365 --> 0:19:53.165
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And one of the reasons why we bought a

0:19:53.285 --> 0:19:55.005
<v Speaker 4>place on the South Coast was so that I could

0:19:55.005 --> 0:19:57.445
<v Speaker 4>say I'm not here this week because I will fill

0:19:57.485 --> 0:19:59.685
<v Speaker 4>every gap if people ask me to, whether I want

0:19:59.725 --> 0:20:00.085
<v Speaker 4>to or not.

0:20:00.405 --> 0:20:04.685
<v Speaker 2>Do you fill the gaps because you feel anxious to

0:20:04.685 --> 0:20:06.525
<v Speaker 2>have the space, or do you feel gaps as a people?

0:20:06.525 --> 0:20:07.565
<v Speaker 2>Please fill the gaps?

0:20:08.045 --> 0:20:10.445
<v Speaker 4>People, please, And to let people down and they're my

0:20:10.525 --> 0:20:11.805
<v Speaker 4>friends and I haven't seen them for a while, and

0:20:11.805 --> 0:20:12.605
<v Speaker 4>that's what friends do.

0:20:12.765 --> 0:20:15.565
<v Speaker 6>But you have gotten much better, or at least with me.

0:20:17.125 --> 0:20:17.925
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying no.

0:20:19.565 --> 0:20:21.365
<v Speaker 6>Of you know, kind of saying I don't want to

0:20:21.405 --> 0:20:22.885
<v Speaker 6>do this now, or I can't do this, or I

0:20:22.925 --> 0:20:25.045
<v Speaker 6>don't have the energy, or those kinds of which is

0:20:25.725 --> 0:20:28.805
<v Speaker 6>you know, I think a lovely thing that friends can

0:20:28.845 --> 0:20:33.565
<v Speaker 6>do with each other. But we and we're not exactly

0:20:33.645 --> 0:20:36.925
<v Speaker 6>schedule people, but other than we have a standing date

0:20:37.325 --> 0:20:39.565
<v Speaker 6>at least once on the weekend to go for a

0:20:39.565 --> 0:20:41.045
<v Speaker 6>while when we're in town.

0:20:41.165 --> 0:20:44.165
<v Speaker 4>And now that you've moved further away, that now involves

0:20:44.165 --> 0:20:45.925
<v Speaker 4>a car. We used to just meet down at the

0:20:45.965 --> 0:20:47.925
<v Speaker 4>beach and go for a walk, so one of us

0:20:47.925 --> 0:20:49.365
<v Speaker 4>has to get up half an hour earlier and be

0:20:49.565 --> 0:20:52.165
<v Speaker 4>ready earlier. The first time I went to Anita's new

0:20:52.165 --> 0:20:54.325
<v Speaker 4>place with my dog, I was very.

0:20:54.285 --> 0:20:55.965
<v Speaker 2>Rude of her to move, and I could feel it.

0:20:57.525 --> 0:21:00.405
<v Speaker 2>An you moved like a few So you've moved across town.

0:21:00.645 --> 0:21:02.685
<v Speaker 5>Yes, it's probably about half an hour away. Twenty minutes.

0:21:02.805 --> 0:21:03.285
<v Speaker 1>Twenty minutes.

0:21:03.405 --> 0:21:06.005
<v Speaker 4>Well, my dog must have taken it very personally because

0:21:06.005 --> 0:21:07.605
<v Speaker 4>when you went to Anita's new but she just had

0:21:07.605 --> 0:21:10.605
<v Speaker 4>the carpets, claimed many has never done this before. She

0:21:10.685 --> 0:21:12.325
<v Speaker 4>went in and did a giant whee on then.

0:21:12.285 --> 0:21:15.685
<v Speaker 5>You come out. It was awful, awful.

0:21:15.885 --> 0:21:19.405
<v Speaker 4>But I find also physically as things get harder for me.

0:21:19.565 --> 0:21:21.805
<v Speaker 4>I've had two hit replacements and I've got a thritis

0:21:21.805 --> 0:21:22.165
<v Speaker 4>in my back.

0:21:22.205 --> 0:21:24.045
<v Speaker 5>We all do it some we've all got stuff.

0:21:24.485 --> 0:21:26.565
<v Speaker 4>But there's some days we'll say to Anita, I had

0:21:26.605 --> 0:21:28.085
<v Speaker 4>I was filming this week or whatever it is, and

0:21:28.125 --> 0:21:30.085
<v Speaker 4>I stood up all week. I'm just too sort of

0:21:30.085 --> 0:21:33.605
<v Speaker 4>go for a walk. So I'm being more diligent with

0:21:33.645 --> 0:21:37.845
<v Speaker 4>myself in protecting myself. But I know I can say

0:21:37.845 --> 0:21:41.325
<v Speaker 4>that to you With other people, I may not know

0:21:41.325 --> 0:21:42.765
<v Speaker 4>I can say to you, sorry about that. I just

0:21:42.805 --> 0:21:44.045
<v Speaker 4>feel crap today.

0:21:44.525 --> 0:21:46.485
<v Speaker 2>Do you think it's the mark of good friendship. I

0:21:46.525 --> 0:21:48.645
<v Speaker 2>think I heard a conversation that you were where you

0:21:48.725 --> 0:21:52.125
<v Speaker 2>were talking about how a good friendship is someone can

0:21:52.125 --> 0:21:53.525
<v Speaker 2>come over to your house and you don't feel like

0:21:53.525 --> 0:21:55.605
<v Speaker 2>you have to tidy, you know, you have to feel

0:21:55.605 --> 0:21:57.405
<v Speaker 2>like you have to tidy the counters or whatever. I'm

0:21:57.445 --> 0:21:59.285
<v Speaker 2>not a natural hostess. It sends me into a panic

0:21:59.325 --> 0:22:01.405
<v Speaker 2>if somebody is coming to my house. But is it

0:22:01.525 --> 0:22:04.445
<v Speaker 2>also a sign of good friendship that when you do

0:22:04.605 --> 0:22:07.085
<v Speaker 2>say I just don't have the energy or there's just

0:22:07.165 --> 0:22:09.125
<v Speaker 2>too many other demands that they're not going to get

0:22:10.085 --> 0:22:10.925
<v Speaker 2>offended by that.

0:22:11.005 --> 0:22:11.165
<v Speaker 5>Oh?

0:22:11.205 --> 0:22:15.885
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, And I'm trying to push through worrying about that

0:22:15.885 --> 0:22:17.605
<v Speaker 4>that this is what I have, this is what I

0:22:17.605 --> 0:22:20.685
<v Speaker 4>have to do to survive today. Not survive that's overly dramatic,

0:22:21.165 --> 0:22:23.325
<v Speaker 4>but you know I work hard all week as many

0:22:23.325 --> 0:22:26.085
<v Speaker 4>of us do stuff and stuff and stuff, and you

0:22:26.125 --> 0:22:27.285
<v Speaker 4>get to the weekend and think, I just don't have

0:22:27.325 --> 0:22:28.845
<v Speaker 4>anyemy to tick it up earlier this morning.

0:22:28.645 --> 0:22:29.245
<v Speaker 5>And go for a walk.

0:22:29.405 --> 0:22:31.845
<v Speaker 1>You're doing a very good job at ignoring my tears

0:22:31.965 --> 0:22:32.565
<v Speaker 1>that you know.

0:22:33.045 --> 0:22:33.685
<v Speaker 5>What's she doing.

0:22:33.925 --> 0:22:35.965
<v Speaker 4>She's put on the water works, hasn't she She's going

0:22:36.005 --> 0:22:43.285
<v Speaker 4>with the waterworks. But also what I love about our

0:22:43.365 --> 0:22:46.445
<v Speaker 4>friendship is that you mentioned before about being vulnerable and eata.

0:22:46.965 --> 0:22:50.205
<v Speaker 4>You can bitch and moan about your husband, about your parents,

0:22:50.245 --> 0:22:53.485
<v Speaker 4>about you, anything, and it's such a safe space that

0:22:53.565 --> 0:22:56.925
<v Speaker 4>you know that that isn't the mark of that relationship

0:22:56.925 --> 0:22:59.685
<v Speaker 4>that you're having. That's just how you're feeling Today's like

0:22:59.725 --> 0:23:01.805
<v Speaker 4>you could never tell your mum how you if you

0:23:01.805 --> 0:23:03.565
<v Speaker 4>had a fight with your boyfriend or your husband, because

0:23:03.565 --> 0:23:06.125
<v Speaker 4>they would never get over it, they'd mark them forever.

0:23:06.685 --> 0:23:09.445
<v Speaker 4>Whereas I feel quite safe sharing that stuff with you

0:23:09.565 --> 0:23:09.885
<v Speaker 4>when we.

0:23:09.885 --> 0:23:13.925
<v Speaker 6>Have I love early in our friendship, I think that

0:23:14.125 --> 0:23:16.685
<v Speaker 6>remember we had a conversation that one of us was

0:23:17.005 --> 0:23:19.925
<v Speaker 6>saying something about our husband, and you know, and and

0:23:19.965 --> 0:23:23.645
<v Speaker 6>we said, let's recognize that I might like if it

0:23:23.685 --> 0:23:26.245
<v Speaker 6>was me, I might be mad at Emmett right now.

0:23:27.165 --> 0:23:29.365
<v Speaker 6>And you get to hear this, but you don't get

0:23:29.405 --> 0:23:32.605
<v Speaker 6>to hear us make up. You don't get to hear

0:23:32.685 --> 0:23:35.605
<v Speaker 6>the conversation that happens after when we resolve things.

0:23:35.605 --> 0:23:37.525
<v Speaker 1>You don't get to hear any of that.

0:23:37.805 --> 0:23:43.005
<v Speaker 6>So you know, you need that cognitive process to kind

0:23:43.005 --> 0:23:45.045
<v Speaker 6>of say I get that, you know, I might be

0:23:45.085 --> 0:23:48.325
<v Speaker 6>mad at Emmett today, but you know we have a

0:23:48.365 --> 0:23:51.645
<v Speaker 6>long term marriage, and so we're going to get through it.

0:23:52.325 --> 0:23:54.445
<v Speaker 4>And that's the stuff you never see in popular culture.

0:23:54.765 --> 0:23:58.445
<v Speaker 4>You never see the boring bits in the middle where

0:23:58.445 --> 0:24:00.965
<v Speaker 4>things get resolved, because that's not interesting to anybody.

0:24:01.165 --> 0:24:04.285
<v Speaker 2>It's true, I often wonder this as we get older

0:24:04.285 --> 0:24:06.965
<v Speaker 2>and wise, there are lots of things happen. Do you

0:24:07.045 --> 0:24:10.925
<v Speaker 2>think friends, good friends call each other out when they're

0:24:10.925 --> 0:24:15.845
<v Speaker 2>being unreasonable, you know, maybe making choices that aren't good

0:24:15.885 --> 0:24:18.605
<v Speaker 2>for them, Or do you think that good friends are

0:24:18.645 --> 0:24:22.605
<v Speaker 2>always the supportive rock. That's what I'm always wrestling with

0:24:22.725 --> 0:24:25.645
<v Speaker 2>is whether you you know that where people say the

0:24:25.645 --> 0:24:28.285
<v Speaker 2>people closer to you should be the ones you say

0:24:28.445 --> 0:24:30.965
<v Speaker 2>you need to stop doing that thing, or whether they're

0:24:30.965 --> 0:24:33.405
<v Speaker 2>the ones who are the understanding ones. What do you think?

0:24:33.725 --> 0:24:38.685
<v Speaker 4>I'm highly sensitive, and so I judge the messenger very harshly.

0:24:40.645 --> 0:24:43.205
<v Speaker 4>And even though in an ideal world you say yes,

0:24:43.925 --> 0:24:46.685
<v Speaker 4>you're you know, practically you want your friends to tell

0:24:46.685 --> 0:24:48.565
<v Speaker 4>you that, I don't think I want to hear it.

0:24:49.245 --> 0:24:49.885
<v Speaker 5>How do you feel?

0:24:50.445 --> 0:24:52.285
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like you know that friend And I'm not saying

0:24:52.285 --> 0:24:55.085
<v Speaker 2>any wanted this, but the friend who is always complaining

0:24:55.085 --> 0:24:57.125
<v Speaker 2>about their husband or their job or whatever it is,

0:24:57.925 --> 0:25:01.885
<v Speaker 2>or you know, something in their lifestyle. Always at what

0:25:01.965 --> 0:25:03.965
<v Speaker 2>point do good friends say? Hey?

0:25:04.805 --> 0:25:07.885
<v Speaker 6>I think it depends on the friendship. Like like you

0:25:07.925 --> 0:25:11.045
<v Speaker 6>and I have had that conversation that you know, if

0:25:11.085 --> 0:25:14.405
<v Speaker 6>I looked really terrible in an outfit, you wouldn't tell

0:25:14.445 --> 0:25:14.605
<v Speaker 6>me that.

0:25:14.685 --> 0:25:15.685
<v Speaker 5>I would never tell you.

0:25:15.725 --> 0:25:18.045
<v Speaker 6>They never tell even though I'd want to hear it.

0:25:18.125 --> 0:25:22.325
<v Speaker 6>Like I'm really big on feedback, and so I gut

0:25:22.565 --> 0:25:25.045
<v Speaker 6>that that would make you feel uncomfortable, even though I'd

0:25:25.125 --> 0:25:27.925
<v Speaker 6>like to hear it. And so, and I recognize that

0:25:27.965 --> 0:25:29.365
<v Speaker 6>you are sensitive, and so.

0:25:29.725 --> 0:25:32.925
<v Speaker 4>All my outfits terrible. It's all I've heard in this

0:25:33.085 --> 0:25:35.925
<v Speaker 4>entire conversation, she's mean to.

0:25:35.885 --> 0:25:36.485
<v Speaker 1>Talk to you about it.

0:25:37.725 --> 0:25:38.245
<v Speaker 5>We've had this.

0:25:38.325 --> 0:25:40.325
<v Speaker 4>We actually have had this conversation. I wrote a book

0:25:40.325 --> 0:25:42.645
<v Speaker 4>a number of years ago and Anita wanted to read it,

0:25:42.685 --> 0:25:44.365
<v Speaker 4>and I said, oh, here it is, just thinking, I'm just.

0:25:44.285 --> 0:25:44.885
<v Speaker 5>Passing it over.

0:25:45.165 --> 0:25:46.645
<v Speaker 4>And she said, how would you how do you take

0:25:46.685 --> 0:25:49.365
<v Speaker 4>feedback feedback?

0:25:51.765 --> 0:25:52.685
<v Speaker 1>Because I didn't know.

0:25:52.885 --> 0:25:55.005
<v Speaker 5>Like, I was like, you're an educator't me?

0:25:55.365 --> 0:25:57.725
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I mean that's my that's my life, you know,

0:25:57.805 --> 0:25:59.805
<v Speaker 6>teaching students and stuff and giving feedback.

0:25:59.925 --> 0:26:04.085
<v Speaker 1>So I'm I'm really like, I was like, do you

0:26:04.445 --> 0:26:04.885
<v Speaker 1>do you?

0:26:05.005 --> 0:26:06.685
<v Speaker 6>And then and it was like hmm, and so we

0:26:06.765 --> 0:26:10.805
<v Speaker 6>just that's a great book, Amanda.

0:26:12.245 --> 0:26:15.205
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, mate, your job is to tell me everything

0:26:15.245 --> 0:26:17.325
<v Speaker 2>I do is great, because there are plenty of other

0:26:17.365 --> 0:26:19.085
<v Speaker 2>people in my life we're going to tell me.

0:26:19.045 --> 0:26:19.485
<v Speaker 5>That it's not.

0:26:20.925 --> 0:26:24.725
<v Speaker 6>But I have friendships where I could say that too,

0:26:25.125 --> 0:26:27.725
<v Speaker 6>and I have colleagues that I you know, that's the

0:26:27.765 --> 0:26:31.085
<v Speaker 6>basis of our work relationship where we give each other

0:26:31.245 --> 0:26:35.085
<v Speaker 6>really strong feedback, and you know, certainly with my supervisors

0:26:35.085 --> 0:26:37.965
<v Speaker 6>and and that kind of stuff. So there, I think

0:26:37.965 --> 0:26:40.845
<v Speaker 6>it depends on the friendship, and it depends on the topic,

0:26:41.005 --> 0:26:45.485
<v Speaker 6>because there may be topics where you know, I may

0:26:46.005 --> 0:26:48.845
<v Speaker 6>think that I don't know, like I mean, if I

0:26:48.885 --> 0:26:52.925
<v Speaker 6>thought that you were being really overreacting to something.

0:26:53.205 --> 0:26:56.965
<v Speaker 4>Actually we had this conversation recently. Is that I was

0:26:57.485 --> 0:27:01.525
<v Speaker 4>overreacting to something. I was cranky about about ten things.

0:27:02.005 --> 0:27:04.085
<v Speaker 4>And you showed me a clip of a woman who

0:27:04.125 --> 0:27:06.485
<v Speaker 4>had a nail in her head and she was talking

0:27:06.485 --> 0:27:09.565
<v Speaker 4>to her husband and she was and she was saying,

0:27:10.205 --> 0:27:11.165
<v Speaker 4>I just don't feel right.

0:27:11.245 --> 0:27:12.285
<v Speaker 5>You're not supporting me enough.

0:27:12.285 --> 0:27:13.685
<v Speaker 4>And he's trying to say, we've got a nail in

0:27:13.725 --> 0:27:15.965
<v Speaker 4>your head, and she said, no, no, no, this this,

0:27:16.565 --> 0:27:17.845
<v Speaker 4>and he said, no, you've got a nail in your head.

0:27:17.845 --> 0:27:20.045
<v Speaker 4>And finally he says, oh, sweetheart, I hear what she's saying.

0:27:20.045 --> 0:27:23.205
<v Speaker 4>You're not feeling going. She's just thank you. And I've

0:27:23.245 --> 0:27:25.765
<v Speaker 4>been thinking about that a lot, because you probably observed me.

0:27:28.005 --> 0:27:29.685
<v Speaker 4>My husband's done well, and so I'm looking at the

0:27:29.725 --> 0:27:35.045
<v Speaker 4>world through a filter. And you were saying, you know,

0:27:36.045 --> 0:27:38.325
<v Speaker 4>you're seeing all this with a nail in your head.

0:27:38.605 --> 0:27:41.285
<v Speaker 4>I didn't know what to do about the nail, but

0:27:41.325 --> 0:27:43.525
<v Speaker 4>I thought, yes, but I am seeing the world. I

0:27:43.565 --> 0:27:45.845
<v Speaker 4>do have a nail in my head, so I didn't

0:27:45.845 --> 0:27:47.365
<v Speaker 4>know how to process the fact that I do have

0:27:47.365 --> 0:27:49.005
<v Speaker 4>a nail in my head. But that's one of the

0:27:49.045 --> 0:27:51.085
<v Speaker 4>only times where I thought, you're trying to tell me

0:27:51.125 --> 0:27:55.565
<v Speaker 4>something here. I'm not sure exactly what it is, because

0:27:55.605 --> 0:27:59.205
<v Speaker 4>I know that I know that I'm having a negative

0:27:59.245 --> 0:28:03.085
<v Speaker 4>moment or a depressive moment, or an angry moment where

0:28:03.125 --> 0:28:06.525
<v Speaker 4>I'm seeing everything through that veil and I'm aware of it.

0:28:07.285 --> 0:28:09.485
<v Speaker 4>But on the other hand, I think, well, here's why,

0:28:10.365 --> 0:28:11.525
<v Speaker 4>because some things.

0:28:11.365 --> 0:28:15.805
<v Speaker 6>Came pretty shite, and your natural stat is to be

0:28:15.885 --> 0:28:20.565
<v Speaker 6>optimistic and see things, you know, very positively. I cannot

0:28:20.605 --> 0:28:22.765
<v Speaker 6>remember what was going through my head at the time

0:28:22.805 --> 0:28:24.885
<v Speaker 6>I showed it. I you know that that it was

0:28:25.085 --> 0:28:27.365
<v Speaker 6>probably something that I had showed a class or something.

0:28:27.925 --> 0:28:31.725
<v Speaker 6>I probably was thinking about how hard you were seeing

0:28:31.765 --> 0:28:32.645
<v Speaker 6>the world at the time.

0:28:32.965 --> 0:28:36.005
<v Speaker 2>It's interesting because also you would have heard the term

0:28:36.045 --> 0:28:40.205
<v Speaker 2>a million times about toxic positivity, where we're encouraged by

0:28:40.325 --> 0:28:44.685
<v Speaker 2>pop culture and you know, sort of leaking for one

0:28:44.725 --> 0:28:46.845
<v Speaker 2>of a better term, therapy, speaking to everyday life, to

0:28:47.165 --> 0:28:49.285
<v Speaker 2>put a positive spin on everything and to see everything

0:28:49.325 --> 0:28:51.685
<v Speaker 2>as a lesson. And you know what am I learning

0:28:51.685 --> 0:28:54.685
<v Speaker 2>from this today? And I'm sure this you know whereas

0:28:54.685 --> 0:28:57.725
<v Speaker 2>sometimes things are just terrible shit and.

0:28:57.645 --> 0:29:00.365
<v Speaker 5>You need to sit in the shammer into your own hair.

0:29:00.525 --> 0:29:03.885
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, and just sit and feel the nail. Just

0:29:03.885 --> 0:29:04.525
<v Speaker 1>step field.

0:29:04.605 --> 0:29:06.325
<v Speaker 5>But it did give me a really good perspective.

0:29:06.405 --> 0:29:08.885
<v Speaker 4>I just thought, yes, I am being this today, and

0:29:08.925 --> 0:29:11.325
<v Speaker 4>I probably won't be this tomorrow, but I'm seeing a

0:29:11.365 --> 0:29:12.245
<v Speaker 4>whole lot of good things.

0:29:12.285 --> 0:29:13.365
<v Speaker 5>It was because I'm talking about how.

0:29:13.325 --> 0:29:15.165
<v Speaker 4>People were trying to help and I was getting cranky

0:29:15.165 --> 0:29:18.005
<v Speaker 4>at everything. I think that was it. I just needed

0:29:18.165 --> 0:29:19.285
<v Speaker 4>a shift in perspective.

0:29:22.245 --> 0:29:24.845
<v Speaker 2>More of my conversation with best friends Amanda Keller and

0:29:24.925 --> 0:29:30.605
<v Speaker 2>Anita McGregor after this short break stay with us. We've

0:29:30.645 --> 0:29:32.365
<v Speaker 2>touched on a couple of these in this conversation, I think,

0:29:32.405 --> 0:29:34.165
<v Speaker 2>but in which ways are you similar? In which ways

0:29:34.165 --> 0:29:36.725
<v Speaker 2>are you different? So we've acknowledged here that Amanda is

0:29:36.765 --> 0:29:39.565
<v Speaker 2>the sensitive one, and you would be more straight talking

0:29:39.605 --> 0:29:41.165
<v Speaker 2>if she wasn't such a snowflake.

0:29:45.565 --> 0:29:49.445
<v Speaker 4>Interestingly, I have a job where I get rated and

0:29:50.965 --> 0:29:54.565
<v Speaker 4>judged by ratings and constant I don't read a lot

0:29:54.645 --> 0:29:56.925
<v Speaker 4>of social media feedback because I just wouldn't be able

0:29:56.925 --> 0:29:59.885
<v Speaker 4>to handle it. So ironically, in my work life, it's

0:30:00.005 --> 0:30:03.245
<v Speaker 4>constant judgment and constant feedback and constant feedback.

0:30:03.365 --> 0:30:06.525
<v Speaker 2>I think that's probably why in your personal life you're

0:30:06.565 --> 0:30:06.925
<v Speaker 2>also a.

0:30:06.845 --> 0:30:07.245
<v Speaker 5>Bit like that.

0:30:07.685 --> 0:30:10.085
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's try to put the blinkers on. How are

0:30:10.125 --> 0:30:13.365
<v Speaker 4>we similar, Anita, let's ask the grown up?

0:30:13.765 --> 0:30:18.445
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, you know, it is interesting that that. You know,

0:30:18.485 --> 0:30:21.085
<v Speaker 6>when we go to your place on the South Coast

0:30:21.125 --> 0:30:25.645
<v Speaker 6>and we spend a weekend together, we will spend days.

0:30:25.285 --> 0:30:26.525
<v Speaker 1>You know, what are we going to eat? What are

0:30:26.565 --> 0:30:27.045
<v Speaker 1>we going to do?

0:30:27.765 --> 0:30:31.845
<v Speaker 6>And we generally end up eating you know, sardines on toast,

0:30:32.325 --> 0:30:35.725
<v Speaker 6>and we end up reading books together or playing dominoes

0:30:35.765 --> 0:30:39.365
<v Speaker 6>when we can, and you know, so it's the similarities

0:30:39.445 --> 0:30:42.045
<v Speaker 6>are that that. It's a funny thing to say because

0:30:42.085 --> 0:30:44.005
<v Speaker 6>I tend to get up at about you get up

0:30:44.005 --> 0:30:46.765
<v Speaker 6>at what four for work, Yeah, And I usually get

0:30:46.805 --> 0:30:49.085
<v Speaker 6>up at about four thirty, just because that's when my

0:30:49.685 --> 0:30:52.805
<v Speaker 6>you know, my brain starts turning on. And so it's

0:30:53.005 --> 0:30:55.965
<v Speaker 6>I think that because we're both mourning people and we

0:30:56.085 --> 0:31:00.205
<v Speaker 6>both have very similar kind of rhythms about how our

0:31:00.725 --> 0:31:03.485
<v Speaker 6>lives and our work, you know, just go.

0:31:03.685 --> 0:31:04.485
<v Speaker 5>I think that's right.

0:31:04.565 --> 0:31:07.245
<v Speaker 4>And we do kitchen time very well together, yeah, which

0:31:07.285 --> 0:31:09.965
<v Speaker 4>I think is a big part of a great friendship.

0:31:10.365 --> 0:31:12.005
<v Speaker 5>Is that we plann what are we going to eat?

0:31:12.005 --> 0:31:13.245
<v Speaker 5>When are doing this and not being this?

0:31:13.285 --> 0:31:14.645
<v Speaker 4>And we chop chop chop, and I'm going to put

0:31:14.645 --> 0:31:17.245
<v Speaker 4>this on and we potter very well together and then

0:31:17.285 --> 0:31:20.485
<v Speaker 4>we sit down and read very well together comfortably.

0:31:20.925 --> 0:31:22.685
<v Speaker 5>You can't do that with everybody.

0:31:22.245 --> 0:31:24.085
<v Speaker 2>No, you can't. You can't do that with that. You

0:31:24.125 --> 0:31:27.165
<v Speaker 2>can't have that away time where you're not doing, doing

0:31:27.245 --> 0:31:29.725
<v Speaker 2>doing all the time. Is it hard to have a

0:31:29.725 --> 0:31:32.165
<v Speaker 2>friend who's in the public eye, Anita, a best friend

0:31:32.165 --> 0:31:35.565
<v Speaker 2>who's in the public eye, And do you feel defensive

0:31:35.605 --> 0:31:38.885
<v Speaker 2>of her? And when there's invasions of your privacy? And

0:31:38.925 --> 0:31:41.725
<v Speaker 2>do you not talk about work?

0:31:42.085 --> 0:31:47.365
<v Speaker 1>I am protective of you in that I don't.

0:31:47.445 --> 0:31:51.325
<v Speaker 6>I don't often like because you know, by my nature,

0:31:51.365 --> 0:31:54.685
<v Speaker 6>I'm quite private, you know, part of it's just who

0:31:54.725 --> 0:31:56.245
<v Speaker 6>I am, but it's part of it has been my

0:31:56.285 --> 0:32:01.205
<v Speaker 6>profession as well, and so I recognize the need for

0:32:01.565 --> 0:32:04.685
<v Speaker 6>some sense of privacy. So I'm protective of that. I

0:32:04.685 --> 0:32:07.405
<v Speaker 6>don't tell a lot of people that we're friends. I mean,

0:32:07.805 --> 0:32:08.325
<v Speaker 6>it's kind of.

0:32:08.245 --> 0:32:12.245
<v Speaker 2>Hard not to now now now you've got public we're

0:32:12.285 --> 0:32:13.525
<v Speaker 2>going to Esky podcast.

0:32:13.565 --> 0:32:15.005
<v Speaker 1>It is, yeah, so.

0:32:17.285 --> 0:32:19.405
<v Speaker 5>It must it might manifest itself strangely.

0:32:19.445 --> 0:32:22.325
<v Speaker 4>For example, when we went to see Kat Stevens and

0:32:22.365 --> 0:32:25.645
<v Speaker 4>this guy asked Anita to take a photo of me

0:32:25.725 --> 0:32:29.285
<v Speaker 4>and him, and then he came back after interval and said, well,

0:32:29.325 --> 0:32:30.205
<v Speaker 4>I've been looking for you.

0:32:30.285 --> 0:32:32.925
<v Speaker 5>That was a terrible closure, and.

0:32:36.085 --> 0:32:38.925
<v Speaker 4>I thought sorry for Anita because she hasn't asked to

0:32:38.925 --> 0:32:39.765
<v Speaker 4>be dragged into this.

0:32:40.765 --> 0:32:42.525
<v Speaker 1>It was hilarious. So I took a picture on the

0:32:42.565 --> 0:32:43.445
<v Speaker 1>top of his head.

0:32:44.725 --> 0:32:49.925
<v Speaker 2>Like you totally asked for talking about the podcast, because

0:32:50.285 --> 0:32:53.325
<v Speaker 2>your conversation, your chemistry on that is so brilliant, and

0:32:53.485 --> 0:32:57.525
<v Speaker 2>as you you're I'm sure you had an instinct, Amanda,

0:32:57.525 --> 0:33:00.805
<v Speaker 2>because you knew that Anita's, as you've said in her introduction,

0:33:01.085 --> 0:33:04.125
<v Speaker 2>just such an interesting thinker in terms of what you

0:33:04.205 --> 0:33:06.645
<v Speaker 2>talk about. So you must have been like, this is

0:33:06.645 --> 0:33:08.285
<v Speaker 2>going to be good. But was it also just an

0:33:08.325 --> 0:33:09.725
<v Speaker 2>excuse to spend more time together.

0:33:10.085 --> 0:33:12.725
<v Speaker 5>Oh, it absolutely was. It was all of those things.

0:33:13.165 --> 0:33:15.805
<v Speaker 4>But we'd often talk about things on the walk that

0:33:15.925 --> 0:33:18.445
<v Speaker 4>I think other people might like to be part of

0:33:18.485 --> 0:33:21.845
<v Speaker 4>this conversation too, Because I'd come from things from one

0:33:21.885 --> 0:33:26.445
<v Speaker 4>perspective and Anita would come from a completely different perspective.

0:33:26.845 --> 0:33:29.245
<v Speaker 4>I thought that would be an interesting thing for people

0:33:29.365 --> 0:33:33.165
<v Speaker 4>to hear, because you know, a million people have podcasts

0:33:33.205 --> 0:33:37.045
<v Speaker 4>and have opinions and have things to say. But I

0:33:37.045 --> 0:33:40.445
<v Speaker 4>thought I haven't heard somebody like Anita.

0:33:40.565 --> 0:33:44.925
<v Speaker 2>Do you disagree very much in terms of on issues

0:33:44.965 --> 0:33:47.965
<v Speaker 2>and things that are happening in the world, because so

0:33:48.045 --> 0:33:49.765
<v Speaker 2>on Mama, MI are out loud, which I obviously do

0:33:49.805 --> 0:33:53.245
<v Speaker 2>with two of my good friends. But we do disagree,

0:33:53.805 --> 0:33:56.925
<v Speaker 2>and people often say that must be really hard. And

0:33:56.965 --> 0:33:58.125
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if this is true or not. You

0:33:58.445 --> 0:34:00.245
<v Speaker 2>probably do know an to and it's true or not.

0:34:00.605 --> 0:34:02.925
<v Speaker 2>But somebody said, if you can disagree on the details,

0:34:02.925 --> 0:34:06.285
<v Speaker 2>but if your values are shared, it's easier.

0:34:07.005 --> 0:34:11.245
<v Speaker 6>I think her values are definitely share. I don't think

0:34:11.285 --> 0:34:15.125
<v Speaker 6>that we've ever had any bigger disagreements.

0:34:15.125 --> 0:34:15.725
<v Speaker 1>We tend to.

0:34:16.445 --> 0:34:19.125
<v Speaker 6>You know. What I find is really interesting is that

0:34:19.165 --> 0:34:24.165
<v Speaker 6>Amanda has been my educator in you know, political things,

0:34:24.605 --> 0:34:28.845
<v Speaker 6>Australian history that you know that you know who's you know,

0:34:28.885 --> 0:34:31.005
<v Speaker 6>what's happened in austral.

0:34:30.725 --> 0:34:33.445
<v Speaker 5>History of Peter Andre, that kind of stuff, that kind.

0:34:33.245 --> 0:34:37.005
<v Speaker 6>Of stuff, the really important stuff that culture yeah yeah,

0:34:37.045 --> 0:34:40.725
<v Speaker 6>but yeah, pop culture, but also kind of just historical things.

0:34:40.845 --> 0:34:44.405
<v Speaker 6>And so we tend You're right, we tend to come

0:34:44.485 --> 0:34:47.165
<v Speaker 6>at things with from different angles. But but I think

0:34:47.285 --> 0:34:50.885
<v Speaker 6>under the underlying that is that similarity and values.

0:34:51.005 --> 0:34:54.925
<v Speaker 4>We did a podcast the week of the terrible Bondi stabbings,

0:34:55.525 --> 0:34:58.125
<v Speaker 4>and I was so grateful to have somebody like Anita

0:34:58.485 --> 0:35:01.805
<v Speaker 4>to give a perspective on this in that the media

0:35:01.925 --> 0:35:05.245
<v Speaker 4>was filled with stories about we're not doing enough for

0:35:05.405 --> 0:35:08.125
<v Speaker 4>the victims, and it's so true, but you came at

0:35:08.165 --> 0:35:10.925
<v Speaker 4>it from a different perspective, which was you work every

0:35:11.005 --> 0:35:13.645
<v Speaker 4>day with the perpetrators, and we need to fix the

0:35:13.645 --> 0:35:16.885
<v Speaker 4>problem upstream. We need to invest in the perpetrators. And

0:35:16.925 --> 0:35:19.965
<v Speaker 4>people didn't want to hear about They didn't want him

0:35:20.005 --> 0:35:22.365
<v Speaker 4>to be part of the conversation, they didn't want any

0:35:22.405 --> 0:35:25.005
<v Speaker 4>of that kind of discussed. And it's true that our

0:35:25.005 --> 0:35:28.805
<v Speaker 4>sympathies were downstream, but we were never going to fix

0:35:28.845 --> 0:35:33.005
<v Speaker 4>it until we looked upstream. You spoke with such sympathy

0:35:33.205 --> 0:35:35.965
<v Speaker 4>and clarity about the kind of people that are upstream

0:35:35.965 --> 0:35:38.525
<v Speaker 4>and why we need to help them.

0:35:37.485 --> 0:35:37.605
<v Speaker 5>HM.

0:35:38.565 --> 0:35:42.045
<v Speaker 6>So yeah, but I think that that again your compassion

0:35:42.285 --> 0:35:46.405
<v Speaker 6>for you know, your broad audience, like it's you know,

0:35:46.445 --> 0:35:48.765
<v Speaker 6>you were asking before about is it tough to have

0:35:49.165 --> 0:35:51.885
<v Speaker 6>you know, somebody who's in the public eye as a friend.

0:35:52.005 --> 0:35:53.485
<v Speaker 1>But you know, one of the things.

0:35:53.205 --> 0:35:57.125
<v Speaker 6>That the toughest part is that when you know, we'll

0:35:57.245 --> 0:36:00.925
<v Speaker 6>be out at an event and people stop Amanda, you know,

0:36:00.965 --> 0:36:03.005
<v Speaker 6>and we'll sometimes be in the middle of a conversation,

0:36:03.085 --> 0:36:08.445
<v Speaker 6>but you are often always so kind and willing, and

0:36:08.685 --> 0:36:11.285
<v Speaker 6>you know, so you come from a position of compassion

0:36:11.805 --> 0:36:15.645
<v Speaker 6>as well that you recognize that it is you know,

0:36:15.685 --> 0:36:18.965
<v Speaker 6>the people who listen to you deserve some of your time.

0:36:19.045 --> 0:36:22.405
<v Speaker 4>Well, it's a privilege to be called somebody's friend, that

0:36:22.525 --> 0:36:25.965
<v Speaker 4>they feel they know you and worry about you and

0:36:26.005 --> 0:36:28.245
<v Speaker 4>think about you and care about you and want to

0:36:28.245 --> 0:36:29.245
<v Speaker 4>come up and say hellow, I see.

0:36:29.245 --> 0:36:30.325
<v Speaker 5>That is a privilege.

0:36:30.605 --> 0:36:31.125
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:36:31.165 --> 0:36:34.205
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. I want to ask you both because obviously you

0:36:34.245 --> 0:36:38.005
<v Speaker 2>have started the podcast, you both have big careers. Really

0:36:38.525 --> 0:36:41.325
<v Speaker 2>I want to know how you're, just in terms of

0:36:41.485 --> 0:36:45.325
<v Speaker 2>general wisdom, how your attitude to work and ambition is

0:36:45.405 --> 0:36:49.285
<v Speaker 2>at this point in your lives, because you've made a

0:36:49.445 --> 0:36:53.085
<v Speaker 2>decision to start this new project, which requires commitment, promotion,

0:36:53.885 --> 0:36:54.805
<v Speaker 2>all of those things.

0:36:56.125 --> 0:36:59.445
<v Speaker 4>It's funny that, like I've just come back onto the

0:36:59.565 --> 0:37:03.005
<v Speaker 4>radio that were in the second week, part of me goes,

0:37:03.085 --> 0:37:06.725
<v Speaker 4>oh god, that's right, I'm sixty three this year. Part

0:37:06.725 --> 0:37:13.045
<v Speaker 4>of me thinks this schedule is hard, But I thought

0:37:13.445 --> 0:37:17.205
<v Speaker 4>that I don't know what I pictured when I was younger,

0:37:17.605 --> 0:37:20.085
<v Speaker 4>But I thought the dailiness of radio would have worn

0:37:20.165 --> 0:37:22.845
<v Speaker 4>me down by now. But it's hard with my shifting

0:37:22.885 --> 0:37:25.325
<v Speaker 4>fortunes at home in terms of my husband not being well.

0:37:25.965 --> 0:37:29.125
<v Speaker 5>Is that I need. I now know somewhere to go

0:37:29.165 --> 0:37:29.685
<v Speaker 5>every day.

0:37:30.125 --> 0:37:31.805
<v Speaker 4>I need an alarm clock to go off in the

0:37:31.805 --> 0:37:34.325
<v Speaker 4>morning and for me to go somewhere where I'm fully

0:37:34.365 --> 0:37:37.045
<v Speaker 4>engaged for a chunk of hours of the day, where

0:37:37.085 --> 0:37:40.245
<v Speaker 4>I laugh, I cry, I listen to other people's stories.

0:37:41.405 --> 0:37:44.765
<v Speaker 4>You scratch the surface and everybody has a story. I've

0:37:44.805 --> 0:37:47.365
<v Speaker 4>spoken about this about the word sounder, which means the

0:37:47.365 --> 0:37:52.485
<v Speaker 4>gradual realization that everybody is going through something, something good,

0:37:52.565 --> 0:37:54.765
<v Speaker 4>something sad, and I'm aware of that. With a radio audience,

0:37:54.765 --> 0:37:56.605
<v Speaker 4>they're having their best and their worst days and you're

0:37:56.605 --> 0:37:58.005
<v Speaker 4>not even aware of it, but you're on the ride

0:37:58.045 --> 0:38:00.845
<v Speaker 4>with them. And so I find being there is a

0:38:00.885 --> 0:38:02.925
<v Speaker 4>great equalizer for me. If I think if I was

0:38:02.965 --> 0:38:05.765
<v Speaker 4>just sitting at home, I would wallow. So by the

0:38:05.805 --> 0:38:08.605
<v Speaker 4>time in my life I thought I'd be wrapping this up,

0:38:08.845 --> 0:38:10.205
<v Speaker 4>I actually realize how much I.

0:38:10.205 --> 0:38:11.685
<v Speaker 5>Need it at the moment.

0:38:12.165 --> 0:38:16.165
<v Speaker 2>That's really interesting because a large part of, you know,

0:38:16.485 --> 0:38:19.245
<v Speaker 2>our shifting perspectives is dealing with things that you didn't

0:38:19.245 --> 0:38:21.765
<v Speaker 2>think were going to happen. So, I mean, I'm sure

0:38:21.765 --> 0:38:23.605
<v Speaker 2>that when you were working in breakfast radio every day

0:38:23.605 --> 0:38:26.125
<v Speaker 2>when the boys were small, you have two sons, that

0:38:26.285 --> 0:38:28.765
<v Speaker 2>was a different kind of challenge and you probably thought, well,

0:38:28.765 --> 0:38:30.925
<v Speaker 2>when they're older, it's all going to be easier and whatever.

0:38:30.965 --> 0:38:33.365
<v Speaker 2>And then life throws you a curveball in the form

0:38:33.365 --> 0:38:38.005
<v Speaker 2>of a health, yeah crisis, and work takes a different form. Again.

0:38:38.285 --> 0:38:41.245
<v Speaker 4>Interesting, it kind of saves me, I think. But An

0:38:41.245 --> 0:38:43.245
<v Speaker 4>here and I often talk about this about and we've

0:38:43.245 --> 0:38:45.365
<v Speaker 4>got friends who are at the point of wondering what

0:38:45.405 --> 0:38:47.445
<v Speaker 4>retirement looks like and how we.

0:38:47.365 --> 0:38:48.085
<v Speaker 5>Feel about that.

0:38:48.685 --> 0:38:52.725
<v Speaker 4>And it's that old trope of and I don't agree

0:38:52.725 --> 0:38:55.045
<v Speaker 4>with it, of you put too much stock in your job.

0:38:55.125 --> 0:38:57.525
<v Speaker 4>That's not who people are. But I think there's a

0:38:57.565 --> 0:38:59.525
<v Speaker 4>lot of pride in the jobs that we do, and

0:38:59.565 --> 0:39:03.205
<v Speaker 4>it's okay to be defined by that to a certain extent.

0:39:03.805 --> 0:39:06.085
<v Speaker 4>You know, you don't have to go and pash a

0:39:06.165 --> 0:39:10.685
<v Speaker 4>dolphin every day and work one day a year to

0:39:10.765 --> 0:39:14.085
<v Speaker 4>be a true person. That's not where you necessarily find yourself.

0:39:14.885 --> 0:39:16.925
<v Speaker 4>And I know a lot of people say, oh, they've retired,

0:39:16.965 --> 0:39:18.645
<v Speaker 4>and few why don't I do it years ago? Because

0:39:18.645 --> 0:39:21.325
<v Speaker 4>you don't know yourself. I love what I get from

0:39:21.365 --> 0:39:21.925
<v Speaker 4>the work I do.

0:39:23.045 --> 0:39:28.645
<v Speaker 6>I love the idea that at my age, I'm still contributing,

0:39:28.925 --> 0:39:31.445
<v Speaker 6>and and in fact I have I think I have

0:39:31.525 --> 0:39:36.205
<v Speaker 6>a lot to contribute. And it's I don't feel as

0:39:36.245 --> 0:39:38.205
<v Speaker 6>though I'm done, and I don't know what done would

0:39:38.205 --> 0:39:41.005
<v Speaker 6>look like. But when I think about all the people

0:39:41.085 --> 0:39:43.525
<v Speaker 6>that you know, we've talked, you know to some of

0:39:43.605 --> 0:39:47.845
<v Speaker 6>who have gone to you know, you know, that retirement place,

0:39:47.925 --> 0:39:50.325
<v Speaker 6>and that they're you know, and they're enjoying life, and

0:39:50.565 --> 0:39:54.205
<v Speaker 6>and that's awesome. I'm happy that they are doing that

0:39:54.645 --> 0:39:57.285
<v Speaker 6>and that they're finding that that part of their lives.

0:39:57.645 --> 0:40:00.565
<v Speaker 6>I just can't see myself not doing what I'm doing

0:40:00.645 --> 0:40:06.005
<v Speaker 6>right now. I can see, you know, somewhere in the distance,

0:40:06.365 --> 0:40:10.725
<v Speaker 6>that there will be something else, but I'm not quite

0:40:10.765 --> 0:40:11.325
<v Speaker 6>there yet.

0:40:12.125 --> 0:40:14.805
<v Speaker 2>It's interesting because on that changing perspectives things. Do you

0:40:14.845 --> 0:40:16.685
<v Speaker 2>think that when you were younger, you thought, you know,

0:40:16.725 --> 0:40:18.925
<v Speaker 2>how you were saying, Amanda, I thought breakfast radio would

0:40:18.925 --> 0:40:21.165
<v Speaker 2>have wore me down, did you. When you're twenty and

0:40:21.205 --> 0:40:24.485
<v Speaker 2>you think about forty, you're like, oh, you know, I'll

0:40:24.485 --> 0:40:26.285
<v Speaker 2>definitely be wanting to put my feet up or whatever,

0:40:26.325 --> 0:40:28.645
<v Speaker 2>and or it'll look like this and it'll feel like that.

0:40:28.765 --> 0:40:31.365
<v Speaker 2>And then you get there and you're like spring chicken,

0:40:31.445 --> 0:40:34.365
<v Speaker 2>and then and like you're you're saying, I'm not done.

0:40:34.485 --> 0:40:38.125
<v Speaker 2>Is that's really resonates because that's what I feel. I'm

0:40:38.165 --> 0:40:42.165
<v Speaker 2>fifty three, so but I'm like, I don't feel and

0:40:42.405 --> 0:40:44.845
<v Speaker 2>I still feel like I've got so much to learn

0:40:44.925 --> 0:40:47.165
<v Speaker 2>and give and do. I'm getting started, but it feels

0:40:47.165 --> 0:40:51.645
<v Speaker 2>sometimes like the wider world is like slow down, calm down,

0:40:51.765 --> 0:40:52.245
<v Speaker 2>back off.

0:40:52.805 --> 0:40:54.565
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well, I get a lot of that, why are

0:40:54.565 --> 0:40:57.405
<v Speaker 4>you still doing this? I get quite blatantly people saying,

0:40:57.445 --> 0:40:59.085
<v Speaker 4>oh my god, don't you want to give it up?

0:40:59.365 --> 0:41:02.045
<v Speaker 4>Because to other people, that early alarm clock, that daily

0:41:02.125 --> 0:41:03.765
<v Speaker 4>thing might seem like a chore.

0:41:04.285 --> 0:41:05.605
<v Speaker 5>It doesn't feel like that to me.

0:41:05.685 --> 0:41:09.605
<v Speaker 4>It's a gift that I get to share my perspective

0:41:09.645 --> 0:41:11.805
<v Speaker 4>on whatever I feel like every day.

0:41:12.685 --> 0:41:14.845
<v Speaker 5>So I don't see it that way.

0:41:15.605 --> 0:41:18.525
<v Speaker 4>When I was younger, I pictured being sixty like being

0:41:18.565 --> 0:41:21.405
<v Speaker 4>like that painting of Whistler's mother just you know, in

0:41:21.445 --> 0:41:24.565
<v Speaker 4>a rocking chair or wearing black. It's all over because

0:41:24.685 --> 0:41:26.885
<v Speaker 4>I didn't have role models who were working women, let

0:41:26.925 --> 0:41:29.845
<v Speaker 4>alone women who work this long. So all of this

0:41:29.925 --> 0:41:32.565
<v Speaker 4>is new, I think for all of us. But I

0:41:32.565 --> 0:41:35.125
<v Speaker 4>can see why in the media, I'm probably the last

0:41:35.165 --> 0:41:39.485
<v Speaker 4>of a certain dinosaur, and I have no interest in reinventing.

0:41:40.165 --> 0:41:44.565
<v Speaker 4>I don't give a rats about starting a new project

0:41:44.805 --> 0:41:47.285
<v Speaker 4>integrated into a blah blah and a blah blah. I'm

0:41:47.285 --> 0:41:49.645
<v Speaker 4>happy to ride this wave that I'm on and then

0:41:49.685 --> 0:41:52.485
<v Speaker 4>when it's time, hopefully I can do a delicate dismount.

0:41:52.525 --> 0:41:54.685
<v Speaker 4>You can never you never assume that, either in the

0:41:54.685 --> 0:41:56.605
<v Speaker 4>media or in life. We're talking about that in terms

0:41:56.605 --> 0:41:59.765
<v Speaker 4>of your home life, but your professional life too. You

0:41:59.845 --> 0:42:02.205
<v Speaker 4>assume that there's a delicate dismount when you hit the shore.

0:42:02.805 --> 0:42:04.725
<v Speaker 4>But maybe you've put in a wave and you've got

0:42:04.765 --> 0:42:07.005
<v Speaker 4>sand through a gust and you just don't know what's there.

0:42:07.565 --> 0:42:09.685
<v Speaker 2>But also you're really really good at what you do

0:42:09.765 --> 0:42:12.765
<v Speaker 2>because you've been doing it. It's like there's a bit

0:42:12.765 --> 0:42:15.485
<v Speaker 2>of a dismissal of experience that I feel as a

0:42:15.965 --> 0:42:20.045
<v Speaker 2>and maybe because the way we see women, particularly women

0:42:20.085 --> 0:42:22.085
<v Speaker 2>in the public eye, but not only certainly a lot

0:42:22.125 --> 0:42:25.085
<v Speaker 2>in other fields too, are like, oh, do you really

0:42:25.125 --> 0:42:27.605
<v Speaker 2>still have something to offer? It's like, I know what

0:42:27.645 --> 0:42:28.205
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing.

0:42:28.845 --> 0:42:31.445
<v Speaker 6>There's the word that's kind of rolling around my head

0:42:31.485 --> 0:42:34.685
<v Speaker 6>right now, and it feels uncomfortable in some ways. Is

0:42:34.725 --> 0:42:37.645
<v Speaker 6>like being a role model for being older and successful

0:42:37.765 --> 0:42:42.725
<v Speaker 6>and still you know, being able to contribute. And it's

0:42:43.405 --> 0:42:46.605
<v Speaker 6>you know, it's interesting because the students that I teach

0:42:47.325 --> 0:42:51.165
<v Speaker 6>now are often in their early twenties, early mid twenties,

0:42:51.725 --> 0:42:55.805
<v Speaker 6>and they, you know, I'm the age of some of

0:42:55.845 --> 0:42:59.885
<v Speaker 6>their parents and even some of their could it be

0:42:59.925 --> 0:43:02.925
<v Speaker 6>possible their grandparents, and you know, you kind of think

0:43:03.765 --> 0:43:07.485
<v Speaker 6>they're probably they have a picture in their head of

0:43:07.845 --> 0:43:12.285
<v Speaker 6>what an old person, what they are, what they can do.

0:43:13.085 --> 0:43:16.805
<v Speaker 6>And I don't mind that the students see me cycling

0:43:16.885 --> 0:43:20.125
<v Speaker 6>to UNI or you know, to the clinic and you know,

0:43:20.205 --> 0:43:24.005
<v Speaker 6>coming in and teaching, and I like that maybe there

0:43:24.125 --> 0:43:26.365
<v Speaker 6>is an aspect where we can kind of break some

0:43:27.205 --> 0:43:30.685
<v Speaker 6>ideas about you know, what an older woman can be.

0:43:30.885 --> 0:43:32.685
<v Speaker 4>And there was I think it was the West Australian

0:43:32.725 --> 0:43:36.805
<v Speaker 4>Premier at one point said we've cracked down on racism, sexism.

0:43:36.845 --> 0:43:39.125
<v Speaker 4>He said agism is the last big one, and he

0:43:39.245 --> 0:43:41.525
<v Speaker 4>was just suggesting that let's look at the potency of

0:43:41.605 --> 0:43:46.085
<v Speaker 4>language around it, not just that dismissive yeah boomer stuff,

0:43:46.485 --> 0:43:50.325
<v Speaker 4>but also how people in the older generation think younger

0:43:50.365 --> 0:43:53.645
<v Speaker 4>people are. But it seems that people trying to re

0:43:53.805 --> 0:43:57.125
<v Speaker 4>enter the workforce and be validated is really hard as

0:43:57.125 --> 0:44:01.045
<v Speaker 4>you get older. Maybe is that evolutionary that at some

0:44:01.165 --> 0:44:05.325
<v Speaker 4>point you'd need you should be moving away for others?

0:44:05.845 --> 0:44:07.725
<v Speaker 4>Is there something maybe bigger in there?

0:44:07.805 --> 0:44:11.565
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and maybe there's a panic that our generations never

0:44:11.645 --> 0:44:12.125
<v Speaker 2>going to go.

0:44:12.725 --> 0:44:15.325
<v Speaker 4>Yes, that's right, We're going to own all the big

0:44:15.365 --> 0:44:16.765
<v Speaker 4>houses and will never go.

0:44:16.965 --> 0:44:19.165
<v Speaker 2>We're going to figure out how to live forever, like

0:44:19.525 --> 0:44:22.925
<v Speaker 2>die in Silicon Valley. Yes, And we're just we're never

0:44:23.005 --> 0:44:23.805
<v Speaker 2>going anywhere.

0:44:23.845 --> 0:44:27.085
<v Speaker 4>So maybe the younger generations have a right to be

0:44:27.165 --> 0:44:30.325
<v Speaker 4>anxious that the old we're still hanging around. When are

0:44:30.365 --> 0:44:31.845
<v Speaker 4>we going to move over and let someone else have

0:44:31.885 --> 0:44:32.565
<v Speaker 4>a crack at it.

0:44:36.645 --> 0:44:39.365
<v Speaker 2>The rest of my conversation with Amanda Keller and Anita

0:44:39.405 --> 0:44:47.125
<v Speaker 2>McGregor best Friends, Colleagues, truth Tellers after the Break Did

0:44:47.165 --> 0:44:51.085
<v Speaker 2>you have strong female friendship role modeled to you by

0:44:51.125 --> 0:44:52.165
<v Speaker 2>your own mothers?

0:44:52.245 --> 0:44:56.805
<v Speaker 6>Do you think, oh, my mother's bridge club, Absolutely that

0:44:57.005 --> 0:45:00.645
<v Speaker 6>was you know, every I think it was every Tuesday

0:45:01.245 --> 0:45:04.445
<v Speaker 6>and they, yeah, there was an end and she had

0:45:04.645 --> 0:45:07.845
<v Speaker 6>my mom had a friend Eileen, who she talked to

0:45:08.045 --> 0:45:11.565
<v Speaker 6>every morning. You know, there is just that connection that

0:45:11.685 --> 0:45:14.125
<v Speaker 6>it was just checking in, how are you doing that

0:45:14.205 --> 0:45:16.565
<v Speaker 6>kind of thing. So yeah, I think it was. It

0:45:16.645 --> 0:45:20.005
<v Speaker 6>was an important part, especially since my mom, you know,

0:45:20.765 --> 0:45:24.045
<v Speaker 6>after she got married, didn't work after a while.

0:45:24.085 --> 0:45:25.605
<v Speaker 2>So connection my.

0:45:25.645 --> 0:45:27.645
<v Speaker 5>Mom had that with her sisters. She was very close

0:45:27.685 --> 0:45:28.365
<v Speaker 5>to her sisters.

0:45:28.565 --> 0:45:32.165
<v Speaker 4>They all lived in different places around Australia, spoke constantly,

0:45:33.085 --> 0:45:37.165
<v Speaker 4>a very very tight unit, a very big clan of

0:45:37.445 --> 0:45:39.805
<v Speaker 4>a gaggle of them, and I felt we were the

0:45:39.845 --> 0:45:42.645
<v Speaker 4>only offshoot in Sydney. And there's just my brother and

0:45:42.725 --> 0:45:45.165
<v Speaker 4>I and very close to all our cousins for a

0:45:45.245 --> 0:45:48.285
<v Speaker 4>number of years, and since Mom passed away twenty years ago.

0:45:48.325 --> 0:45:49.685
<v Speaker 4>Now it's a shock for me to say that to

0:45:49.685 --> 0:45:52.005
<v Speaker 4>you them my lost mom twenty years ago. But the

0:45:52.045 --> 0:45:55.165
<v Speaker 4>women are the keepers of those sort of connections and

0:45:55.205 --> 0:45:58.205
<v Speaker 4>I've kind of lost track with cousins and things like

0:45:58.245 --> 0:46:00.925
<v Speaker 4>that because it was Mum that held all that together.

0:46:01.245 --> 0:46:03.565
<v Speaker 2>I'd love to hear you tell me a little bit

0:46:03.685 --> 0:46:06.485
<v Speaker 2>about what life's like with your adult children.

0:46:06.525 --> 0:46:06.765
<v Speaker 5>Now.

0:46:06.925 --> 0:46:09.325
<v Speaker 2>I was listening to Double a Chattery the other day

0:46:09.405 --> 0:46:11.605
<v Speaker 2>and you were both talking about the summer hot Well,

0:46:11.685 --> 0:46:14.165
<v Speaker 2>not summer holidays for you, Anita, because you went to

0:46:14.205 --> 0:46:18.525
<v Speaker 2>Canada where it sounded so cold. Never need to go there.

0:46:20.085 --> 0:46:20.605
<v Speaker 5>In winter.

0:46:21.845 --> 0:46:23.885
<v Speaker 2>I grew up in Manchester, Englhend. That was plenty cold

0:46:23.925 --> 0:46:27.205
<v Speaker 2>enough for me and Amanda. You went away with your boys,

0:46:27.245 --> 0:46:30.845
<v Speaker 2>who are not boys anymore but men. My children are teenagers.

0:46:31.205 --> 0:46:36.285
<v Speaker 2>I'm seeing the pull away, the closed bedroom door, the

0:46:36.325 --> 0:46:39.005
<v Speaker 2>next phase of parenting. Me and Brent talk about it

0:46:39.005 --> 0:46:43.445
<v Speaker 2>all the time. Tell me the good things about the

0:46:43.565 --> 0:46:46.205
<v Speaker 2>kids being grown up. You're a grandma, I needed.

0:46:48.805 --> 0:46:50.605
<v Speaker 4>Well, I'm not yet because when you when you have

0:46:50.605 --> 0:46:52.805
<v Speaker 4>your children at one hundred and fifty eight, it does

0:46:52.885 --> 0:46:53.125
<v Speaker 4>take a.

0:46:53.125 --> 0:46:53.805
<v Speaker 5>Little bit longer.

0:46:54.765 --> 0:46:58.405
<v Speaker 4>That I dreaded the boys leaving home. But the dread

0:46:58.525 --> 0:47:01.685
<v Speaker 4>was harder than the reality. Oh that's yes, because you

0:47:01.765 --> 0:47:05.165
<v Speaker 4>live with the dread from the minute they're born, and

0:47:05.205 --> 0:47:07.725
<v Speaker 4>then when it actually happens, it's almost like you've kind

0:47:07.765 --> 0:47:10.645
<v Speaker 4>of quarterized the wound a little bit, and I found,

0:47:10.725 --> 0:47:11.885
<v Speaker 4>actually I'm surviving.

0:47:11.925 --> 0:47:12.685
<v Speaker 5>This is okay.

0:47:13.525 --> 0:47:17.245
<v Speaker 4>I remember when both boys got big, and I'd be

0:47:17.285 --> 0:47:18.965
<v Speaker 4>in a restaurant and I turn behind me think it

0:47:18.965 --> 0:47:21.285
<v Speaker 4>was the way I think, oh my god, that's liam.

0:47:21.645 --> 0:47:25.885
<v Speaker 4>So the physicality surprised me. And the way you express

0:47:25.925 --> 0:47:28.285
<v Speaker 4>your love for them is different. You don't hug them

0:47:28.525 --> 0:47:30.165
<v Speaker 4>as much, you know when they're little and you hold

0:47:30.205 --> 0:47:33.125
<v Speaker 4>their hands. And suddenly, as a mum with a teenage boy,

0:47:33.125 --> 0:47:33.525
<v Speaker 4>how do you.

0:47:33.485 --> 0:47:34.365
<v Speaker 5>Express that love?

0:47:34.405 --> 0:47:36.965
<v Speaker 2>That's harder that I want you to touch them all

0:47:37.005 --> 0:47:38.325
<v Speaker 2>the time. It's so selfish of that.

0:47:38.485 --> 0:47:38.725
<v Speaker 5>I know.

0:47:40.925 --> 0:47:42.965
<v Speaker 4>And the grace with which you have to read the

0:47:43.005 --> 0:47:45.605
<v Speaker 4>mood and not grope them around the neck.

0:47:45.645 --> 0:47:47.885
<v Speaker 5>And my daughter walks past me.

0:47:47.965 --> 0:47:51.965
<v Speaker 2>Now I just try to get a whiff of her, like, yeah, yes,

0:47:52.085 --> 0:47:52.525
<v Speaker 2>because you.

0:47:52.445 --> 0:47:55.205
<v Speaker 4>Don't want to be that needy parent. But I'm finding

0:47:55.245 --> 0:47:57.085
<v Speaker 4>now neither of my sons live at home. They've been

0:47:57.125 --> 0:47:59.245
<v Speaker 4>on various campuses and things. And because I get up

0:47:59.245 --> 0:48:01.125
<v Speaker 4>so early in the morning, them coming to live at

0:48:01.125 --> 0:48:03.965
<v Speaker 4>home again sort of, my younger son would get home

0:48:03.965 --> 0:48:05.085
<v Speaker 4>at two and I have to get up at four.

0:48:05.125 --> 0:48:05.925
<v Speaker 5>Was all getting bit hard.

0:48:06.485 --> 0:48:09.005
<v Speaker 4>But a valuable lesson I learned was with my younger

0:48:09.045 --> 0:48:13.685
<v Speaker 4>son when he went moved on campus. Every conversation I

0:48:13.725 --> 0:48:16.165
<v Speaker 4>had with him was telling him, don't forget to do this.

0:48:17.005 --> 0:48:18.805
<v Speaker 4>You don't forget to do that. You stuffed this up,

0:48:18.805 --> 0:48:20.445
<v Speaker 4>You've got a blah blah blah. There was an agenda

0:48:20.485 --> 0:48:23.805
<v Speaker 4>for every conversation. I could tell because my mum used

0:48:23.845 --> 0:48:25.965
<v Speaker 4>to do that to me and it was so hard

0:48:26.005 --> 0:48:29.205
<v Speaker 4>to get hold of him. I've chosen to have agender

0:48:29.245 --> 0:48:32.765
<v Speaker 4>free conversations with him, and now he calls me every day,

0:48:33.125 --> 0:48:34.085
<v Speaker 4>as does my oldest son.

0:48:34.165 --> 0:48:36.165
<v Speaker 5>They both we all speak every day.

0:48:36.405 --> 0:48:39.325
<v Speaker 4>But it's only when I stopped telling Jack what to

0:48:39.365 --> 0:48:42.085
<v Speaker 4>do and nagging him about have you done it?

0:48:42.125 --> 0:48:42.765
<v Speaker 5>Have you done it?

0:48:43.045 --> 0:48:45.885
<v Speaker 2>That's interesting. So it was a very deliberate choice for

0:48:46.085 --> 0:48:48.285
<v Speaker 2>your part. I'm not going to be doing have you done?

0:48:48.725 --> 0:48:49.485
<v Speaker 2>Have you thought about it?

0:48:49.525 --> 0:48:51.365
<v Speaker 4>And sometimes I got to the end of the conversation

0:48:51.445 --> 0:48:53.885
<v Speaker 4>and I almost had to physically stitch my lips closed.

0:48:54.445 --> 0:48:56.325
<v Speaker 4>And then what I might do is just a quick

0:48:56.365 --> 0:48:58.605
<v Speaker 4>follow up text, don't forget to blah blah blah. But

0:48:58.645 --> 0:49:01.605
<v Speaker 4>after we'd had a nice conversation, you did.

0:49:01.525 --> 0:49:03.845
<v Speaker 6>Such a good job, and that that was horrid was

0:49:04.045 --> 0:49:05.325
<v Speaker 6>it was very hard for me.

0:49:05.445 --> 0:49:08.365
<v Speaker 2>But that's a really good piece of advice.

0:49:08.485 --> 0:49:10.685
<v Speaker 4>I've told the psychologist all about it.

0:49:11.965 --> 0:49:16.485
<v Speaker 5>Does she get right I've got a gold start.

0:49:17.125 --> 0:49:17.485
<v Speaker 6>You did.

0:49:17.885 --> 0:49:21.125
<v Speaker 2>That's hard, it's really but I can entirely see how

0:49:21.165 --> 0:49:23.445
<v Speaker 2>that because when I think about when we think about

0:49:23.445 --> 0:49:27.165
<v Speaker 2>our own relationships with our parents perhaps and how freeing

0:49:27.205 --> 0:49:31.205
<v Speaker 2>it felt to not have that constant surveillance. Yeah, you

0:49:31.285 --> 0:49:34.245
<v Speaker 2>want if you want to be letting out the rope

0:49:34.285 --> 0:49:36.645
<v Speaker 2>and for them to come back. It can't feel like

0:49:36.725 --> 0:49:39.245
<v Speaker 2>they're constantly just going to be going. You haven't got

0:49:39.285 --> 0:49:39.645
<v Speaker 2>your hair?

0:49:39.925 --> 0:49:40.045
<v Speaker 5>Yes?

0:49:40.245 --> 0:49:41.645
<v Speaker 2>What when was the last time you watched?

0:49:41.725 --> 0:49:43.045
<v Speaker 5>Had you paid that parking five?

0:49:43.325 --> 0:49:47.485
<v Speaker 2>Exactly? Tell me, Anita, how you're finding face family life.

0:49:47.765 --> 0:49:50.485
<v Speaker 6>My sons are both in their early thirties. One is

0:49:50.565 --> 0:49:53.405
<v Speaker 6>in Sydney here, the older one, and the younger one

0:49:53.445 --> 0:49:54.885
<v Speaker 6>is in Vancouver.

0:49:55.205 --> 0:49:57.125
<v Speaker 2>Did they both come with you when you Okay?

0:49:57.205 --> 0:50:00.245
<v Speaker 6>So they were they were fourteen fifteen. Yeah, there were

0:50:00.285 --> 0:50:03.725
<v Speaker 6>teenagers when we came over. And my older son has

0:50:04.005 --> 0:50:07.325
<v Speaker 6>stayed in Sydney, but my younger son moved to Barthurst

0:50:07.365 --> 0:50:11.565
<v Speaker 6>to go and do a degree at the same Yeah.

0:50:11.645 --> 0:50:13.125
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, and he was.

0:50:13.405 --> 0:50:17.925
<v Speaker 4>He became sort of an emergency paramedic who now works

0:50:17.965 --> 0:50:19.485
<v Speaker 4>in all kinds of tricky places.

0:50:19.725 --> 0:50:21.085
<v Speaker 5>I took rather different routs.

0:50:23.165 --> 0:50:27.245
<v Speaker 4>Both very important life an emergency with a time call

0:50:27.285 --> 0:50:30.085
<v Speaker 4>if anyone needs one.

0:50:30.685 --> 0:50:34.165
<v Speaker 6>So yeah, so so so my son went, and my

0:50:34.245 --> 0:50:38.205
<v Speaker 6>younger one moved when he was eighteen to Bathurst and

0:50:38.245 --> 0:50:41.565
<v Speaker 6>then immediately after his degree, moved to London and was

0:50:41.605 --> 0:50:45.285
<v Speaker 6>a paramedic there right through the pandemic, right through everything,

0:50:45.445 --> 0:50:48.965
<v Speaker 6>and then has just recently moved to Vancouver. And so

0:50:50.125 --> 0:50:55.045
<v Speaker 6>it's you know, he went away early, and we had

0:50:55.085 --> 0:50:58.165
<v Speaker 6>to kind of negotiate what that looked like. And I

0:50:58.245 --> 0:51:00.685
<v Speaker 6>was thinking about what we were, you know, talking about

0:51:00.725 --> 0:51:02.525
<v Speaker 6>them going away and wanting.

0:51:02.245 --> 0:51:04.845
<v Speaker 1>That whiff of them. And he gets me.

0:51:04.965 --> 0:51:08.085
<v Speaker 6>Now when we were leaving to come back to Sydney,

0:51:08.565 --> 0:51:10.365
<v Speaker 6>you know, we were at the area port and and

0:51:10.565 --> 0:51:12.565
<v Speaker 6>you know, I look at him and you know, give

0:51:12.605 --> 0:51:14.805
<v Speaker 6>the great big hug, and I'm like trying to hold

0:51:14.845 --> 0:51:17.885
<v Speaker 6>it together. And then you know, he hugs my husband

0:51:17.965 --> 0:51:19.885
<v Speaker 6>and then he looks at me and he goes, you

0:51:19.925 --> 0:51:22.325
<v Speaker 6>get one more and gives me another one, and it

0:51:22.725 --> 0:51:26.605
<v Speaker 6>just you know, it's it's everything I need. And and

0:51:26.685 --> 0:51:30.645
<v Speaker 6>so it's it's they do come back, and they come

0:51:30.685 --> 0:51:33.605
<v Speaker 6>back as these amazing human beings that you've raised, and

0:51:33.645 --> 0:51:36.285
<v Speaker 6>it's it is a different relationship.

0:51:36.445 --> 0:51:37.845
<v Speaker 1>It is a I love.

0:51:38.205 --> 0:51:40.805
<v Speaker 6>I love my sons, and I love that they are

0:51:40.925 --> 0:51:43.405
<v Speaker 6>very different from each other, just kind of like Liam

0:51:43.445 --> 0:51:47.885
<v Speaker 6>and Jack are, and that they are creating these very different,

0:51:47.965 --> 0:51:49.645
<v Speaker 6>very amazing lives for themselves.

0:51:49.805 --> 0:51:51.765
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, it's it's pretty cool.

0:51:51.765 --> 0:51:54.125
<v Speaker 6>And and and as you said, I'm now a grandma

0:51:54.245 --> 0:51:56.365
<v Speaker 6>and I get to go and is the grand is that?

0:51:56.645 --> 0:51:58.965
<v Speaker 6>Is that your Sydney son or my Sydney son? So

0:51:59.085 --> 0:52:01.645
<v Speaker 6>I yeah, so he's he's local. So I get to

0:52:01.685 --> 0:52:04.445
<v Speaker 6>go and and take care of him. And and you know,

0:52:04.485 --> 0:52:06.285
<v Speaker 6>a little Logan and he's like a year and a

0:52:06.325 --> 0:52:08.925
<v Speaker 6>half now, and he's just a bundle of joy.

0:52:09.005 --> 0:52:10.605
<v Speaker 1>He is.

0:52:11.565 --> 0:52:14.565
<v Speaker 6>I did not think I could lose my mind again

0:52:14.685 --> 0:52:16.925
<v Speaker 6>like this, And I have everybody.

0:52:16.405 --> 0:52:20.045
<v Speaker 2>Says Mia, who obviously we're exactly the same age. But

0:52:20.085 --> 0:52:23.125
<v Speaker 2>I had my kids late in Burner Commons, and so

0:52:23.165 --> 0:52:26.445
<v Speaker 2>she's granny now my kids are still kids, and she's

0:52:26.685 --> 0:52:28.325
<v Speaker 2>just besotted.

0:52:28.965 --> 0:52:31.125
<v Speaker 5>That's exactly the word I use A lot of us

0:52:31.245 --> 0:52:32.165
<v Speaker 5>used to talk about.

0:52:32.485 --> 0:52:34.405
<v Speaker 4>I think it's when you become a grandparent when your

0:52:34.445 --> 0:52:37.085
<v Speaker 4>kids are older, you think, was I present enough?

0:52:37.765 --> 0:52:39.485
<v Speaker 5>Because when you're in the midst of it.

0:52:39.685 --> 0:52:41.445
<v Speaker 4>And you're raising a child and you're trying to keep

0:52:41.445 --> 0:52:43.485
<v Speaker 4>them alive and stop them putting a cigarette butt in

0:52:43.525 --> 0:52:45.365
<v Speaker 4>their mouths that they found at the beach, and all

0:52:45.405 --> 0:52:46.125
<v Speaker 4>of that stuff.

0:52:46.685 --> 0:52:51.365
<v Speaker 5>You don't have time to just look at them and breathe.

0:52:52.165 --> 0:52:54.845
<v Speaker 4>And as grand and as a parent of teenage, you think,

0:52:54.885 --> 0:52:56.445
<v Speaker 4>why didn't I make more of those years when I

0:52:56.445 --> 0:52:58.725
<v Speaker 4>held their hands? And when I go to the South Coast,

0:52:58.765 --> 0:53:01.805
<v Speaker 4>I think, oh, we couldn't have afforded to buy a

0:53:01.805 --> 0:53:04.805
<v Speaker 4>holiday house then, and they had weekend football. But I thought, well,

0:53:05.045 --> 0:53:07.165
<v Speaker 4>I wish I could. I wish I had one day

0:53:07.725 --> 0:53:11.285
<v Speaker 4>where there were toddlers again. Their lands makest want to cry.

0:53:11.525 --> 0:53:13.205
<v Speaker 4>But it's only when you get older and become like

0:53:13.245 --> 0:53:16.565
<v Speaker 4>a grandparent you can actually give the time to just

0:53:16.845 --> 0:53:20.965
<v Speaker 4>seeing and being and smelling without the anxiety of it.

0:53:21.165 --> 0:53:24.965
<v Speaker 4>So we judge ourselves, I think, for not being present enough,

0:53:25.125 --> 0:53:26.645
<v Speaker 4>but how could we be?

0:53:28.005 --> 0:53:31.845
<v Speaker 1>But it's the I was going. I was building forts

0:53:32.285 --> 0:53:33.845
<v Speaker 1>the other day with.

0:53:33.565 --> 0:53:36.085
<v Speaker 6>With little Logan, and you know, he was giggling, I

0:53:36.165 --> 0:53:38.565
<v Speaker 6>was giggling and I and I just stopped in the

0:53:38.565 --> 0:53:41.005
<v Speaker 6>middle of it and just kind of recognized this is

0:53:41.205 --> 0:53:44.645
<v Speaker 6>this is that moment where I get to just spend

0:53:44.685 --> 0:53:47.765
<v Speaker 6>it and and I don't have to worry about, you know,

0:53:48.685 --> 0:53:50.485
<v Speaker 6>washing his clothes or doing anything.

0:53:50.765 --> 0:53:53.285
<v Speaker 1>I just get to go and spend some time with him.

0:53:53.445 --> 0:53:56.485
<v Speaker 2>Recognizing those moments is one of the gifts of being

0:53:56.485 --> 0:53:59.045
<v Speaker 2>a bit older and wiser, I think, don't you. I

0:53:59.085 --> 0:54:00.845
<v Speaker 2>heard you say this, Amanda on your show when you're

0:54:00.845 --> 0:54:02.725
<v Speaker 2>talking about the holiday you've just taken with your boys.

0:54:03.085 --> 0:54:04.405
<v Speaker 2>You're getting drunk with them in a.

0:54:04.325 --> 0:54:04.685
<v Speaker 6>Bar and.

0:54:06.765 --> 0:54:08.165
<v Speaker 5>Dreadful thing to do.

0:54:08.285 --> 0:54:11.285
<v Speaker 2>And he said it was like this bubble you knew,

0:54:11.605 --> 0:54:14.085
<v Speaker 2>you knew in the moment, like this is one of

0:54:14.125 --> 0:54:14.885
<v Speaker 2>those times.

0:54:14.965 --> 0:54:19.045
<v Speaker 4>Yes, And I think that's really what life is, and

0:54:19.085 --> 0:54:21.365
<v Speaker 4>that's all we're entitled to, that whole. Anita and I

0:54:21.405 --> 0:54:23.685
<v Speaker 4>talk a lot about this, of the nature of happiness

0:54:23.685 --> 0:54:27.885
<v Speaker 4>and putting up signs saying happiness in your house and

0:54:27.925 --> 0:54:33.725
<v Speaker 4>all of that, and putting out manifestations. It's not the

0:54:33.805 --> 0:54:36.365
<v Speaker 4>human condition to be happy all the time, but to

0:54:36.485 --> 0:54:38.965
<v Speaker 4>recognize them when they come along is the gift.

0:54:39.005 --> 0:54:42.125
<v Speaker 6>I think, and enjoy you just you can. You can

0:54:42.165 --> 0:54:45.285
<v Speaker 6>try to grasp it, but it's so ephemeral. It's just

0:54:45.405 --> 0:54:47.365
<v Speaker 6>it comes and it goes whenever it wants.

0:54:47.445 --> 0:54:50.685
<v Speaker 2>So I'm sure that, look, I'm going to try and

0:54:50.765 --> 0:54:53.965
<v Speaker 2>land the plane really neatly here regard looking at the dismountain,

0:54:55.005 --> 0:54:57.005
<v Speaker 2>because I'm going to say that I'm sure that the

0:54:57.085 --> 0:54:59.885
<v Speaker 2>two of you get a lot of those happiness bubble

0:54:59.885 --> 0:55:04.525
<v Speaker 2>moments together, right Like you a very good friend, someone

0:55:04.565 --> 0:55:08.165
<v Speaker 2>who will figuratively and literally hold your hand through all

0:55:08.205 --> 0:55:11.325
<v Speaker 2>the shit and all the happy moments is a very

0:55:11.365 --> 0:55:13.805
<v Speaker 2>special thing to have, right So I'm sure you too

0:55:13.885 --> 0:55:17.285
<v Speaker 2>sometimes are in that bubble too, absolutely.

0:55:17.045 --> 0:55:19.005
<v Speaker 6>And I think that's why we have the glimmers, you know,

0:55:19.285 --> 0:55:20.325
<v Speaker 6>instead of the triggers.

0:55:20.445 --> 0:55:22.685
<v Speaker 2>I need to talk to you about the glimmers because

0:55:22.725 --> 0:55:24.365
<v Speaker 2>I love that part of your show. You end it

0:55:24.405 --> 0:55:27.085
<v Speaker 2>with a glimmer. And I have a very good friend

0:55:27.245 --> 0:55:29.525
<v Speaker 2>who has been going through some very difficult health stuff,

0:55:29.525 --> 0:55:31.485
<v Speaker 2>and we don't live in the same place, and every

0:55:31.605 --> 0:55:34.325
<v Speaker 2>day we send each other a photograph glimmer of the

0:55:34.365 --> 0:55:37.805
<v Speaker 2>one thing in our day that made us I love

0:55:38.165 --> 0:55:41.205
<v Speaker 2>like happy. So it might be a particularly good cup

0:55:41.245 --> 0:55:44.365
<v Speaker 2>of tea, or it might be an amazing thing that

0:55:44.405 --> 0:55:46.285
<v Speaker 2>happened at work, or it might be a flower.

0:55:46.045 --> 0:55:47.765
<v Speaker 1>Or the kid I had a good hair day.

0:55:48.605 --> 0:55:51.245
<v Speaker 2>A glimmer a day, I believe keeps.

0:55:51.685 --> 0:55:54.565
<v Speaker 5>It's funny how hard I find it to find them.

0:55:54.925 --> 0:56:01.405
<v Speaker 4>My natural humor goes to not sarcasm, but finding something

0:56:01.965 --> 0:56:05.045
<v Speaker 4>like if something terrible happens, to turn it into a joke.

0:56:05.805 --> 0:56:08.245
<v Speaker 4>But I find it hard to look for the natural

0:56:08.245 --> 0:56:10.485
<v Speaker 4>happiness in things though, I think, as you said, an needier.

0:56:10.485 --> 0:56:13.445
<v Speaker 4>I think I'm an optimistic person, but I sometimes have

0:56:13.605 --> 0:56:18.685
<v Speaker 4>to turn turn an a caustic joke into something uplifting,

0:56:19.125 --> 0:56:20.205
<v Speaker 4>which isn't my nature.

0:56:20.725 --> 0:56:23.365
<v Speaker 2>Well that's but also the humor is a survival I

0:56:23.365 --> 0:56:27.045
<v Speaker 2>mean if you can't laugh, and also that's something you

0:56:27.045 --> 0:56:29.645
<v Speaker 2>can also do with someone you're really intimate with, is

0:56:29.765 --> 0:56:32.085
<v Speaker 2>laugh about the difficult health things or the things they

0:56:32.125 --> 0:56:34.805
<v Speaker 2>don't on your house that you couldn't joke with about.

0:56:35.085 --> 0:56:35.205
<v Speaker 3>Oh.

0:56:35.245 --> 0:56:38.765
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely absolutely. That is my complete survival mechanism. And I've

0:56:38.805 --> 0:56:41.605
<v Speaker 4>talked that to my children, particularly my younger son when

0:56:41.645 --> 0:56:44.365
<v Speaker 4>things are going skew with because he wants to do

0:56:44.365 --> 0:56:46.485
<v Speaker 4>a bit of stand up, I said, just store it up,

0:56:46.685 --> 0:56:49.165
<v Speaker 4>to turn it into a joke before anyone else can.

0:56:49.405 --> 0:56:51.845
<v Speaker 4>That's kind of save yourself. Is kind of the lesson

0:56:51.845 --> 0:56:56.605
<v Speaker 4>I've told him along the way is make you make

0:56:56.645 --> 0:56:58.445
<v Speaker 4>the joke about yourself before anyone else can.

0:56:59.765 --> 0:57:01.085
<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you so much.

0:57:01.485 --> 0:57:03.085
<v Speaker 1>For my pleasure sharing.

0:57:03.685 --> 0:57:05.405
<v Speaker 2>Letting me be the third wheel in this.

0:57:06.885 --> 0:57:09.205
<v Speaker 5>Please, I've kind of enjoyed Algogo mobile.

0:57:18.965 --> 0:57:21.845
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so I didn't quite make myself the third wheel

0:57:21.845 --> 0:57:24.045
<v Speaker 2>in that glorious friendship duo, but you can tell how

0:57:24.125 --> 0:57:27.685
<v Speaker 2>hard I tried. I was really angling from an invite

0:57:27.725 --> 0:57:29.925
<v Speaker 2>to dinner. It was a bit embarrassing for everyone, really,

0:57:30.205 --> 0:57:33.005
<v Speaker 2>but I just loved that conversation. And if you have

0:57:33.045 --> 0:57:36.365
<v Speaker 2>a friendship like Amanda and Anita's, send this episode to

0:57:36.405 --> 0:57:38.605
<v Speaker 2>your best friend. Tell them that you love them and

0:57:38.645 --> 0:57:41.285
<v Speaker 2>tell them that they're a scrag. And if you want

0:57:41.285 --> 0:57:43.845
<v Speaker 2>to hear more from these two together, go and check

0:57:43.885 --> 0:57:46.445
<v Speaker 2>out Double a Chattery. That's their podcast and there's a

0:57:46.485 --> 0:57:49.165
<v Speaker 2>link to it in the show notes. And Amanda is

0:57:49.165 --> 0:57:51.565
<v Speaker 2>hosting a new TV show on the ABC about families.

0:57:51.765 --> 0:57:53.685
<v Speaker 2>It's called the Role of a Lifetime and you can

0:57:53.685 --> 0:57:56.925
<v Speaker 2>have a nosey at that too. And if you're just

0:57:57.005 --> 0:58:01.365
<v Speaker 2>discovering mid thanks to Amanda and Anita, welcome. If you

0:58:01.365 --> 0:58:03.485
<v Speaker 2>want to hear more conversations that will lift you up

0:58:03.565 --> 0:58:06.685
<v Speaker 2>rather than push you down, may I recommend you scroll

0:58:06.765 --> 0:58:09.845
<v Speaker 2>back in our feed to hear Casey Chambers talking keeping

0:58:09.845 --> 0:58:14.525
<v Speaker 2>her dickhead list Bruna Papenrea on Ambition, Gina Chick on Truth,

0:58:14.805 --> 0:58:17.725
<v Speaker 2>and one of my all time favorites, Virginia Trioli on

0:58:17.885 --> 0:58:21.365
<v Speaker 2>small Joys, which we all need lots of right now.

0:58:21.725 --> 0:58:26.005
<v Speaker 2>A massive thanks to our mid team, our executive producer

0:58:26.085 --> 0:58:29.525
<v Speaker 2>i am A Brown, our senior producer Grace Ruvre, our

0:58:29.565 --> 0:58:33.725
<v Speaker 2>producer Charlie Blackman, and we've had audio production from Jacob Round.

0:58:33.885 --> 0:58:36.845
<v Speaker 2>They are all such talented people who help us bring

0:58:36.885 --> 0:58:39.885
<v Speaker 2>you your show. And if you haven't had enough of

0:58:39.925 --> 0:58:43.645
<v Speaker 2>me yet, I can't imagine that. Follow me on Instagram,

0:58:43.765 --> 0:58:45.805
<v Speaker 2>or sign up for my newsletter, or listen to me

0:58:45.965 --> 0:58:49.205
<v Speaker 2>and my great mates Mia Friedman and Jesse Stevens talk

0:58:49.245 --> 0:58:51.525
<v Speaker 2>about fifteen thousand times a week on Mom and Me

0:58:51.605 --> 0:58:55.525
<v Speaker 2>Are Out Loud. Is that an exaggeration maybe? But links

0:58:55.525 --> 0:58:57.845
<v Speaker 2>to all that are in our show notes and I'll

0:58:57.845 --> 0:59:00.205
<v Speaker 2>see you back here next week. Bye,