1 00:00:11,445 --> 00:00:16,364 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the 2 00:00:16,445 --> 00:00:19,724 Speaker 1: traditional owners of the land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:19,805 --> 00:00:20,605 Speaker 1: is recorded on. 4 00:00:26,845 --> 00:00:30,245 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Parenting Out Loud. I'm Jesse Stevens 5 00:00:30,245 --> 00:00:33,284 Speaker 2: and I am joined by Amelia Lester, and we are 6 00:00:33,365 --> 00:00:36,045 Speaker 2: here to talk about some of the stories that dominated 7 00:00:36,285 --> 00:00:39,485 Speaker 2: the week, because if parents are thinking about it, we're 8 00:00:39,685 --> 00:00:43,805 Speaker 2: talking about it. Amelia, Welcome, Thanks Jesse. I wanted to 9 00:00:44,125 --> 00:00:46,604 Speaker 2: thank you because a lot of people may know you 10 00:00:46,605 --> 00:00:49,925 Speaker 2: as a fashionista. I believe it tree is the correct term, 11 00:00:50,445 --> 00:00:55,845 Speaker 2: and you recommended to me your Lulu Lemon fled pants. 12 00:00:56,725 --> 00:00:59,845 Speaker 2: We both agreed that they were an elevated active way. 13 00:00:59,725 --> 00:01:01,845 Speaker 1: Look, an elevated pant. 14 00:01:03,045 --> 00:01:07,044 Speaker 2: Term that fashion is to be used, and I bought them. 15 00:01:07,125 --> 00:01:08,565 Speaker 2: I went and found them, like secondhand. 16 00:01:08,645 --> 00:01:10,125 Speaker 1: You wearing your elevated pants. 17 00:01:10,885 --> 00:01:13,565 Speaker 2: Feel they're so. 18 00:01:13,444 --> 00:01:16,164 Speaker 1: Good because no one knows their leggings except you. 19 00:01:16,485 --> 00:01:18,525 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're my new uniform. 20 00:01:18,725 --> 00:01:22,125 Speaker 1: Like I feel so jens Z like how I'm like 21 00:01:22,205 --> 00:01:25,005 Speaker 1: Billie Eilish the same I feel she has them. 22 00:01:25,125 --> 00:01:27,645 Speaker 2: I'm so bad in them. I just just. 23 00:01:27,684 --> 00:01:29,924 Speaker 1: Mixed metaphors there, but let's go with it. 24 00:01:30,164 --> 00:01:33,925 Speaker 2: Infinitely cooler. So you are my cool, Gurula. 25 00:01:34,324 --> 00:01:35,324 Speaker 1: People say that to me. 26 00:01:35,324 --> 00:01:38,084 Speaker 2: A lot, actually, and on the show today, one of 27 00:01:38,125 --> 00:01:41,804 Speaker 2: the most pervasive pieces of parenting advice is making everyone 28 00:01:41,845 --> 00:01:45,005 Speaker 2: feel bad about themselves. We've solved the mystery of what 29 00:01:45,125 --> 00:01:49,325 Speaker 2: happened to the family dinner table. Plus Courtney Kardashian thinks 30 00:01:49,325 --> 00:01:52,445 Speaker 2: school is dated, why more kids are being homeschooled than 31 00:01:52,445 --> 00:01:56,845 Speaker 2: ever before? And Skinny Talk Amelia is here to explain 32 00:01:57,005 --> 00:02:00,645 Speaker 2: the social media phenomenon promoting a skinny lifestyle. 33 00:02:01,045 --> 00:02:04,205 Speaker 1: But first, in case you missed it, Kate Hudson has 34 00:02:04,245 --> 00:02:07,765 Speaker 1: revealed Mindy Kayling was back to work an hour after 35 00:02:07,805 --> 00:02:11,645 Speaker 1: giving birth, which made me feel bad. Hudson, who will 36 00:02:11,685 --> 00:02:14,205 Speaker 1: be forever almost famous to me and I'm assuming to 37 00:02:14,245 --> 00:02:17,445 Speaker 1: you too, Jesse, but is in fact, somehow now forty 38 00:02:17,485 --> 00:02:20,085 Speaker 1: six years old and has three children. She is on 39 00:02:20,125 --> 00:02:22,085 Speaker 1: a press tour with Mindy Kayling and they have a 40 00:02:22,125 --> 00:02:25,085 Speaker 1: new show on Netflix called Running Point. I had to 41 00:02:25,125 --> 00:02:27,245 Speaker 1: look up what this was about. It's apparently about a 42 00:02:27,245 --> 00:02:30,125 Speaker 1: reformed party girl put in charge of her family's pro 43 00:02:30,205 --> 00:02:31,125 Speaker 1: basketball team. 44 00:02:31,605 --> 00:02:33,645 Speaker 2: Apparently it's a lot of fun. It's like a female 45 00:02:33,645 --> 00:02:35,125 Speaker 2: ted Lassie. That's what I've mead. 46 00:02:35,245 --> 00:02:37,805 Speaker 1: Okay, well, It's not an immediately interesting plot to me, 47 00:02:37,845 --> 00:02:39,725 Speaker 1: I had to admit, but I do love everything Mindy 48 00:02:39,765 --> 00:02:43,405 Speaker 1: Kayling does, and she co created the show. Anyway, Hudson said, 49 00:02:43,565 --> 00:02:45,965 Speaker 1: we had a script she and Mindy at our first 50 00:02:45,965 --> 00:02:48,845 Speaker 1: table read she's on zoom. Then she has a baby 51 00:02:48,925 --> 00:02:51,325 Speaker 1: and is sending notes like an hour after she has 52 00:02:51,365 --> 00:02:54,845 Speaker 1: the baby. I was like, isn't Mindy literally in labor? 53 00:02:55,365 --> 00:02:58,325 Speaker 1: She is a powerhouse and delivers what she's going to deliver. 54 00:02:58,525 --> 00:03:02,165 Speaker 1: Hudson continued, I want to unpack this with you because 55 00:03:02,645 --> 00:03:04,805 Speaker 1: so Mindy Kayling is forty five, she has three children. 56 00:03:05,245 --> 00:03:08,205 Speaker 1: I don't have an issue with Mindy Kayling doing anything 57 00:03:08,205 --> 00:03:11,485 Speaker 1: an hour after giving birth. God speed Mindy Kayling. She's 58 00:03:11,645 --> 00:03:15,645 Speaker 1: an amazing creative woman. But I think what I'm annoyed 59 00:03:15,685 --> 00:03:19,805 Speaker 1: about here is Kate Hudson lionizing the behavior. I think 60 00:03:19,845 --> 00:03:22,845 Speaker 1: that's what annoys me because doesn't it just put pressure 61 00:03:22,885 --> 00:03:26,365 Speaker 1: on other women who have maybe less power, fewer financial 62 00:03:26,405 --> 00:03:29,325 Speaker 1: resources to immediately get back to work after having a 63 00:03:29,365 --> 00:03:30,565 Speaker 1: baby when they hear stuff like this. 64 00:03:30,925 --> 00:03:33,885 Speaker 2: Yeah right, I agree with you. I'm in two minds 65 00:03:33,885 --> 00:03:38,205 Speaker 2: about it, because, like you, I think a woman can do. 66 00:03:38,565 --> 00:03:40,765 Speaker 2: I was gonna say whatever she wants post birth probably 67 00:03:40,885 --> 00:03:42,925 Speaker 2: limits on that. I think that she can pick up 68 00:03:42,925 --> 00:03:45,445 Speaker 2: her phone if she wants, right, I've heard I remember 69 00:03:45,525 --> 00:03:48,445 Speaker 2: Roxy just saying co speaking years ago, she's had two babies, 70 00:03:48,565 --> 00:03:51,205 Speaker 2: and she joked that she took one hour maternity leave, 71 00:03:51,245 --> 00:03:53,525 Speaker 2: and she said she checked her emails laying in the 72 00:03:53,525 --> 00:03:55,325 Speaker 2: hospital bed, and when she was sort of pressed on it, 73 00:03:55,365 --> 00:03:57,485 Speaker 2: she said, the baby was sleeping. I was going to 74 00:03:57,525 --> 00:03:59,045 Speaker 2: turn on the TV. I was going to have a sleeper. 75 00:03:59,045 --> 00:04:00,885 Speaker 2: I was going to open my emails, and I chose that. 76 00:04:00,925 --> 00:04:03,645 Speaker 2: And she's a woman running her own business like you do. 77 00:04:03,765 --> 00:04:04,005 Speaker 1: You. 78 00:04:04,205 --> 00:04:07,005 Speaker 2: I actually find it really infantalizing when people tell women 79 00:04:07,245 --> 00:04:08,445 Speaker 2: what they can and can't do. 80 00:04:08,645 --> 00:04:08,925 Speaker 1: Yep. 81 00:04:09,565 --> 00:04:12,405 Speaker 2: But I agree that the pressure it then puts on 82 00:04:12,765 --> 00:04:16,844 Speaker 2: other mothers in particular, because let's not pretend like we 83 00:04:16,844 --> 00:04:20,164 Speaker 2: wouldn't have any issue really with a dad checking his 84 00:04:20,245 --> 00:04:22,804 Speaker 2: emails an hour after birth, that doesn't have the same. 85 00:04:22,725 --> 00:04:24,484 Speaker 1: He's probably checking his emails during. 86 00:04:24,485 --> 00:04:27,005 Speaker 2: During birth, yep, just checking his slack, making sure there's 87 00:04:27,005 --> 00:04:31,805 Speaker 2: nothing urgent coming through. But women, I think we do 88 00:04:31,885 --> 00:04:35,165 Speaker 2: put this pressure on each other. I remember seeing this 89 00:04:35,325 --> 00:04:38,805 Speaker 2: imagery of a woman pumping in the boardroom and that 90 00:04:38,885 --> 00:04:41,005 Speaker 2: being like it was some image that was going around 91 00:04:41,045 --> 00:04:42,125 Speaker 2: and it's like working mothers. 92 00:04:42,125 --> 00:04:44,285 Speaker 1: I feel like when I was growing up, that was 93 00:04:44,405 --> 00:04:46,844 Speaker 1: just sort of an image you saw every day. It 94 00:04:46,885 --> 00:04:48,805 Speaker 1: was like in the nineties there was a say of 95 00:04:48,885 --> 00:04:52,405 Speaker 1: women in boardrooms pumping yeah, with babies. 96 00:04:52,045 --> 00:04:55,245 Speaker 2: And I saw that and I felt furious because it 97 00:04:55,285 --> 00:04:57,285 Speaker 2: was like, but I don't want to be pumping in 98 00:04:57,325 --> 00:04:59,205 Speaker 2: a boardroom. I want to be at home with my baby. 99 00:04:59,245 --> 00:05:02,405 Speaker 2: And does that make me less ambitious or less hard working? 100 00:05:02,445 --> 00:05:06,525 Speaker 2: I think when it's used as a proxy for unshakable 101 00:05:06,565 --> 00:05:09,725 Speaker 2: work ethic, it's super, super dangerous because if there's ever 102 00:05:10,085 --> 00:05:13,325 Speaker 2: excus use to not be on your emails, yeah, surely 103 00:05:13,405 --> 00:05:14,765 Speaker 2: it's when you've had a baby. 104 00:05:14,805 --> 00:05:19,285 Speaker 1: You've dislodged a memory deep within me of a cover 105 00:05:19,485 --> 00:05:22,685 Speaker 1: of a magazine with Rachel McAdams pumping. 106 00:05:22,925 --> 00:05:24,085 Speaker 2: Oh I remember that. 107 00:05:24,725 --> 00:05:27,525 Speaker 1: Now. There's also been covers. For instance, Australian l I 108 00:05:27,565 --> 00:05:29,485 Speaker 1: think was a World leader in a cover with a 109 00:05:29,525 --> 00:05:33,405 Speaker 1: woman breastfeeding. So I guess I shouldn't have an issue 110 00:05:33,405 --> 00:05:36,844 Speaker 1: with the Rachel McAdams pumping cover. It's certainly not anything prudish, 111 00:05:36,965 --> 00:05:40,285 Speaker 1: but again it's this sense of why are you multitasking, 112 00:05:40,885 --> 00:05:44,565 Speaker 1: because now I have to multitask. Isn't it enough to 113 00:05:44,645 --> 00:05:46,445 Speaker 1: just do one thing at a time. 114 00:05:46,645 --> 00:05:49,245 Speaker 2: And the thing with pumping is that it's always it's 115 00:05:49,285 --> 00:05:51,805 Speaker 2: always spilling and you're always running, like that's the imagery 116 00:05:51,805 --> 00:05:56,044 Speaker 2: of the pumping that it's like, now you're not physically bound, 117 00:05:56,605 --> 00:05:57,925 Speaker 2: you too can do a marriage. 118 00:05:57,965 --> 00:06:01,485 Speaker 1: Sorry, do you not run when you pump? That's weird, Jessie. 119 00:06:01,725 --> 00:06:05,045 Speaker 2: It's like, if you do want to sit down, it's lazy. 120 00:06:05,045 --> 00:06:07,485 Speaker 2: And I looked at this story and I even looked 121 00:06:07,485 --> 00:06:10,365 Speaker 2: at Roxy a little bit more closely, and I thought, 122 00:06:10,085 --> 00:06:13,525 Speaker 2: I don't know if anyone here is actually telling us 123 00:06:13,965 --> 00:06:18,285 Speaker 2: that this is aspirational. But there is this sensitivity when 124 00:06:18,285 --> 00:06:22,005 Speaker 2: it comes to anything motherhood that we internalize it, that 125 00:06:22,045 --> 00:06:24,604 Speaker 2: we immediately go, you've just made me feel bad. 126 00:06:24,485 --> 00:06:27,645 Speaker 1: And specifically the competition element, like this is probably my 127 00:06:27,805 --> 00:06:30,365 Speaker 1: problem more than it is Kate Hudson's. Yeah, yeah, I 128 00:06:30,365 --> 00:06:33,245 Speaker 1: should understand that what Mindy Kayling does after birth has 129 00:06:33,285 --> 00:06:36,964 Speaker 1: nothing to do with me, and yet we're always implicitly comparing. 130 00:06:37,685 --> 00:06:41,485 Speaker 2: One of the most pervasive pieces of parenting advice is 131 00:06:41,525 --> 00:06:43,765 Speaker 2: making people feel bad about themselves, and it's got to 132 00:06:43,805 --> 00:06:46,885 Speaker 2: do with the dinner table. Eating dinner as a family 133 00:06:47,165 --> 00:06:50,685 Speaker 2: is seen as a cornerstone of good parenting, According to 134 00:06:50,725 --> 00:06:54,485 Speaker 2: an article published in Slate last month. Research has linked 135 00:06:54,485 --> 00:06:59,485 Speaker 2: the practice too better nutrition, improved academic performance, decreased depression, anxiety, 136 00:06:59,485 --> 00:07:03,445 Speaker 2: and kids improve communication. I could go on, but the 137 00:07:03,485 --> 00:07:06,645 Speaker 2: author of this article, her name is Dawn t, says 138 00:07:06,725 --> 00:07:10,165 Speaker 2: that in reality, most families just can't make it work. 139 00:07:10,605 --> 00:07:15,045 Speaker 2: In Australia, less than half of families currently eat together. Amelia, 140 00:07:15,245 --> 00:07:17,965 Speaker 2: why do you think this is? On the surface, it 141 00:07:18,005 --> 00:07:19,525 Speaker 2: looks like a relatively simple thing to do. 142 00:07:20,525 --> 00:07:24,565 Speaker 1: I think, Jessie, that this is a real estate story. 143 00:07:24,765 --> 00:07:25,365 Speaker 2: In what way? 144 00:07:25,525 --> 00:07:28,525 Speaker 1: Let me unpack this? Do people even have dining room 145 00:07:28,565 --> 00:07:32,525 Speaker 1: tables anymore? And aren't they doubling mostly as laundry rooms? 146 00:07:32,725 --> 00:07:33,445 Speaker 1: Or is that just me? 147 00:07:33,765 --> 00:07:37,285 Speaker 2: I had my first dining table when I moved into 148 00:07:37,285 --> 00:07:39,405 Speaker 2: a home two months before we had Luna, and my 149 00:07:39,565 --> 00:07:41,725 Speaker 2: twin sister did not have a dining table for the 150 00:07:41,725 --> 00:07:44,085 Speaker 2: first year of her baby's life. 151 00:07:44,165 --> 00:07:46,605 Speaker 1: So did you grow up sitting around the dining room table? Yeah? 152 00:07:46,765 --> 00:07:51,885 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I was reading about Actually, they surveyed a 153 00:07:51,885 --> 00:07:54,085 Speaker 2: bunch of millennials about whether you grew up in a 154 00:07:54,085 --> 00:07:56,605 Speaker 2: house or an apartment, and the overwhelming majority was a house, 155 00:07:56,645 --> 00:07:59,245 Speaker 2: not necessarily a big house, not necessarily in a city, 156 00:07:59,565 --> 00:08:02,405 Speaker 2: but there was a house, which meant you had a backyard, 157 00:08:02,965 --> 00:08:06,725 Speaker 2: it meant you didn't have super close neighbors who were 158 00:08:06,725 --> 00:08:11,525 Speaker 2: maybe sensitive to yelling and crying. And now the percentage 159 00:08:11,805 --> 00:08:15,085 Speaker 2: because of high density living in cities, I believe it's 160 00:08:15,085 --> 00:08:16,325 Speaker 2: gone through the roof. 161 00:08:16,765 --> 00:08:19,965 Speaker 1: Yeah. An SPS story basically summed it up with the 162 00:08:20,005 --> 00:08:22,965 Speaker 1: headline raised in a house, but parenting in an apartment. 163 00:08:23,165 --> 00:08:26,885 Speaker 1: That is the experience. It's certainly my experience. And just 164 00:08:26,925 --> 00:08:28,685 Speaker 1: to throw some numbers at you because I thought they 165 00:08:28,685 --> 00:08:31,325 Speaker 1: were really interesting, the number of families with children and 166 00:08:31,365 --> 00:08:35,085 Speaker 1: apartments has increased by fifty six percent from twenty eleven, 167 00:08:35,485 --> 00:08:38,364 Speaker 1: which is huge. Yeah, and then one in five apartments 168 00:08:38,405 --> 00:08:41,964 Speaker 1: now are occupied by a family with children. Certainly, anecdotally, 169 00:08:42,485 --> 00:08:46,285 Speaker 1: almost everyone I know lives in an apartment and yet 170 00:08:46,325 --> 00:08:47,245 Speaker 1: grew up in a house. 171 00:08:47,325 --> 00:08:49,804 Speaker 2: But apartments fundamentally are not built for families. 172 00:08:49,845 --> 00:08:52,365 Speaker 1: They're not. Well, this is what I need to get 173 00:08:52,365 --> 00:08:55,205 Speaker 1: on my high horse about. I think, even though Australians 174 00:08:55,205 --> 00:08:57,605 Speaker 1: are now living more and more in apartments and raising 175 00:08:57,685 --> 00:09:00,605 Speaker 1: children in apartments, I don't think that culturally we've caught 176 00:09:00,685 --> 00:09:03,405 Speaker 1: up with this. And I want to mention one particular 177 00:09:03,445 --> 00:09:06,285 Speaker 1: aspect that you touched on before. I think noise is 178 00:09:06,325 --> 00:09:08,725 Speaker 1: a real issue. So i live in an apartment with 179 00:09:08,845 --> 00:09:12,605 Speaker 1: two kids, and I've noticed that I'm not the most 180 00:09:12,685 --> 00:09:16,165 Speaker 1: popular resident of the apartment building. I think that's safe 181 00:09:16,165 --> 00:09:18,084 Speaker 1: to say. I don't think any of them listen to this, 182 00:09:18,245 --> 00:09:20,165 Speaker 1: and I don't think that I need to worry about 183 00:09:20,165 --> 00:09:22,725 Speaker 1: them being offended. I just don't think they like us 184 00:09:22,765 --> 00:09:25,725 Speaker 1: living in the apartment very much. Can talk about the 185 00:09:25,765 --> 00:09:28,525 Speaker 1: various microaggressions, but this is not time for my real 186 00:09:28,605 --> 00:09:30,885 Speaker 1: estate gripes. It's not just in my head, because it 187 00:09:30,925 --> 00:09:34,804 Speaker 1: turns out a twenty eighteen study found that Australians correlate 188 00:09:34,885 --> 00:09:37,525 Speaker 1: being a good neighbor with being a quiet neighbor, which, 189 00:09:37,525 --> 00:09:39,885 Speaker 1: fair enough, I get it, Yeah, quiet neighbors are probably 190 00:09:39,965 --> 00:09:43,045 Speaker 1: better on balance than loud neighbors. But also the survey 191 00:09:43,125 --> 00:09:45,765 Speaker 1: found that people think that children shouldn't be the norm 192 00:09:45,805 --> 00:09:47,845 Speaker 1: in apartments. They think that they shouldn't be noise from 193 00:09:47,925 --> 00:09:52,005 Speaker 1: children in apartments. And so how this changes my parenting 194 00:09:52,085 --> 00:09:54,885 Speaker 1: is that I'm constantly telling my children to speak less loudly. 195 00:09:55,445 --> 00:09:57,365 Speaker 1: The net result is that they actually play less. They 196 00:09:57,445 --> 00:10:00,805 Speaker 1: certainly horse play less because that's very loud. And often, 197 00:10:00,845 --> 00:10:03,005 Speaker 1: if I'm really stressed out about the volume, I'll just 198 00:10:03,045 --> 00:10:05,125 Speaker 1: turn on the TV because then I know they won't 199 00:10:05,125 --> 00:10:08,045 Speaker 1: be screaming and running through the apartment playing tip And 200 00:10:08,165 --> 00:10:09,605 Speaker 1: I think that we're seeing the same thing with the 201 00:10:09,645 --> 00:10:13,005 Speaker 1: dinner table idea. We're constantly told that you'll only raise 202 00:10:13,045 --> 00:10:15,445 Speaker 1: good conversation as if you sit down at the dinner table. 203 00:10:15,605 --> 00:10:17,965 Speaker 1: And certainly I was raised sitting at the dinner table 204 00:10:18,005 --> 00:10:20,725 Speaker 1: watching the news every night. I cannot imagine subjecting my 205 00:10:20,805 --> 00:10:22,685 Speaker 1: children to the news in this day and age. But 206 00:10:22,845 --> 00:10:25,525 Speaker 1: the idea of that's what makes you a good parent 207 00:10:25,685 --> 00:10:29,245 Speaker 1: is grounded in an assumption that people are living in houses, 208 00:10:29,405 --> 00:10:30,085 Speaker 1: not flats. 209 00:10:30,405 --> 00:10:33,765 Speaker 2: Exactly right, And I suppose as well, the difference from 210 00:10:33,805 --> 00:10:37,444 Speaker 2: parenting in an apartment is a necessity every single day 211 00:10:37,525 --> 00:10:40,045 Speaker 2: to get out of the house. There is no like 212 00:10:40,125 --> 00:10:43,724 Speaker 2: they talk about how important it is to know, not supervise, 213 00:10:43,805 --> 00:10:47,525 Speaker 2: and to let kids sort of play and explore. When 214 00:10:47,565 --> 00:10:49,965 Speaker 2: you've got an apartment that's for square meters, there isn't 215 00:10:50,005 --> 00:10:52,525 Speaker 2: a lot of places to explore. And I was reading 216 00:10:52,525 --> 00:10:56,324 Speaker 2: about how in Singapore, for example, they open up public 217 00:10:56,365 --> 00:10:59,845 Speaker 2: schools after school hours and stuff so that parents, because 218 00:11:00,005 --> 00:11:02,045 Speaker 2: let's not pretend like Australia is the only place with 219 00:11:02,125 --> 00:11:05,885 Speaker 2: high density living right like France, China, Singapore is one 220 00:11:05,925 --> 00:11:09,725 Speaker 2: of them, and so they found ways to make communal 221 00:11:09,765 --> 00:11:12,445 Speaker 2: green space where people can go out and play. And 222 00:11:12,605 --> 00:11:16,925 Speaker 2: Australia or the cities, it really depends on your suburb. 223 00:11:17,285 --> 00:11:19,925 Speaker 1: This was something that really surprised me when I moved 224 00:11:19,965 --> 00:11:22,485 Speaker 1: back to Australia last year after many years in the US. 225 00:11:22,605 --> 00:11:26,685 Speaker 1: Public schools in the US routinely are open after school, 226 00:11:26,685 --> 00:11:29,605 Speaker 1: before school, and on the weekends they're just not closed 227 00:11:29,805 --> 00:11:31,645 Speaker 1: so you can take your kid in and play on 228 00:11:31,685 --> 00:11:34,725 Speaker 1: the playground equipment. Here, I was shocked by this notion 229 00:11:34,845 --> 00:11:37,605 Speaker 1: that when school ends, the gates close and you can't 230 00:11:37,685 --> 00:11:40,405 Speaker 1: use the playground, and it feels like a waste of 231 00:11:40,445 --> 00:11:43,405 Speaker 1: space because you've got all these areas for kids to play, 232 00:11:43,445 --> 00:11:46,005 Speaker 1: and it also again feels like it's a relic from 233 00:11:46,005 --> 00:11:48,645 Speaker 1: a time when kids went home from school and maybe 234 00:11:48,685 --> 00:11:51,045 Speaker 1: frolicked around the yard like chickens. We don't have a 235 00:11:51,125 --> 00:11:51,845 Speaker 1: yard now. 236 00:11:51,765 --> 00:11:53,965 Speaker 2: Most people don't. It makes a really big difference. But 237 00:11:54,045 --> 00:11:57,645 Speaker 2: back to the dinner table. Example. I think even people 238 00:11:57,925 --> 00:12:00,925 Speaker 2: who live in homes or who do have dining tables, 239 00:12:00,925 --> 00:12:02,845 Speaker 2: and I think the apartment thing is that open it's 240 00:12:02,885 --> 00:12:05,165 Speaker 2: too small for a dining table, or they've got like 241 00:12:05,285 --> 00:12:08,444 Speaker 2: built in benches, so the bench is kind of the hub. 242 00:12:08,805 --> 00:12:11,165 Speaker 2: But I think the way our home have changed is 243 00:12:11,205 --> 00:12:13,245 Speaker 2: that the centerpiece of the house is now the living 244 00:12:13,325 --> 00:12:17,805 Speaker 2: room with a television. True, and so screens have stolen 245 00:12:17,845 --> 00:12:20,965 Speaker 2: the time that we would ordinarily sit around and have 246 00:12:21,045 --> 00:12:25,325 Speaker 2: a chat. Maybe, and that's not like we don't value 247 00:12:25,365 --> 00:12:28,405 Speaker 2: that as much, or because we are living in smaller, 248 00:12:28,445 --> 00:12:32,925 Speaker 2: smaller places, the dining table has become a place with 249 00:12:33,005 --> 00:12:34,245 Speaker 2: just a lot of crap on it. So it could 250 00:12:34,285 --> 00:12:36,885 Speaker 2: be where you work during the day, if you're working remotely. 251 00:12:36,925 --> 00:12:39,845 Speaker 2: It could be homework. It could be laundry, because I 252 00:12:39,885 --> 00:12:42,925 Speaker 2: don't have a laundry, like we have to put it somewhere. 253 00:12:43,445 --> 00:12:45,565 Speaker 2: The other thing I thought, Amelia, and I wanted to 254 00:12:45,565 --> 00:12:47,804 Speaker 2: know whether you feel the same when I now picture 255 00:12:47,885 --> 00:12:50,804 Speaker 2: a family sitting around at dinner table. Do you see 256 00:12:50,805 --> 00:12:55,045 Speaker 2: that as class coded because I see it as a 257 00:12:55,085 --> 00:12:59,685 Speaker 2: sign of money, Yes, Like because you've got both parents 258 00:12:59,685 --> 00:13:02,405 Speaker 2: at home at six pm, which is I would say, 259 00:13:02,445 --> 00:13:05,045 Speaker 2: pretty rare. You've got someone who's made the meal before 260 00:13:05,165 --> 00:13:08,965 Speaker 2: six pm, or maybe you've got help who's made the meal. 261 00:13:09,365 --> 00:13:12,325 Speaker 2: But when I see that image, I go, oh, that's 262 00:13:12,405 --> 00:13:14,525 Speaker 2: become really loaded with class for me. 263 00:13:14,645 --> 00:13:18,125 Speaker 1: You're so right, because there's a fundamental physics problem in 264 00:13:18,525 --> 00:13:22,165 Speaker 1: getting a hot meal on a table at the time 265 00:13:22,205 --> 00:13:25,005 Speaker 1: that children want to eat it when we're all working 266 00:13:25,245 --> 00:13:27,125 Speaker 1: around the clock. How does that work? 267 00:13:27,405 --> 00:13:29,085 Speaker 2: I don't know. It's like an impossible equation. 268 00:13:29,285 --> 00:13:32,245 Speaker 1: And so this idea of having the space for the 269 00:13:32,285 --> 00:13:36,165 Speaker 1: dining room table, having the parents who have divided the 270 00:13:36,285 --> 00:13:40,125 Speaker 1: labor such that someone's made the meal or they, as 271 00:13:40,165 --> 00:13:43,605 Speaker 1: you say, assigned that to someone else, and then having 272 00:13:43,645 --> 00:13:46,005 Speaker 1: you all sit around the table, Yeah, it does feel 273 00:13:46,005 --> 00:13:47,925 Speaker 1: like a luxury in this day and age. But I 274 00:13:47,965 --> 00:13:50,205 Speaker 1: wonder do you think we should be worried about this 275 00:13:50,405 --> 00:13:53,165 Speaker 1: or do you think that the studies themselves are kind 276 00:13:53,205 --> 00:13:54,205 Speaker 1: of caught in the past. 277 00:13:54,645 --> 00:13:57,245 Speaker 2: Look, I think ideally it would be really good for us. 278 00:13:57,405 --> 00:14:01,285 Speaker 2: I think it would because in terms of nutrition and mindfulness, 279 00:14:01,285 --> 00:14:03,565 Speaker 2: when you're eating, it is better to not be looking 280 00:14:03,565 --> 00:14:05,485 Speaker 2: at a screen. I say, this is someone who often 281 00:14:05,485 --> 00:14:07,925 Speaker 2: eates in front of a screen and The second thing 282 00:14:08,005 --> 00:14:13,205 Speaker 2: is I was reading about how evolutionary we tend to 283 00:14:13,445 --> 00:14:16,525 Speaker 2: trust people we eat with. It's like a programmed thing. 284 00:14:16,725 --> 00:14:20,525 Speaker 2: That's like there's a sense of connection we feel equal to. 285 00:14:21,085 --> 00:14:25,085 Speaker 2: It is hardwired into us that something social happens when 286 00:14:25,125 --> 00:14:27,725 Speaker 2: we eat, Like, for example, if you're doing a business negotiation, 287 00:14:27,805 --> 00:14:29,965 Speaker 2: you have snacks on the table, it's more likely to 288 00:14:30,005 --> 00:14:33,445 Speaker 2: go well. So that's hardwired into us. And I think 289 00:14:33,445 --> 00:14:35,725 Speaker 2: that that connection even growing up. I think they're some 290 00:14:35,765 --> 00:14:37,925 Speaker 2: of my favorite memories. So I keep going, I'll do 291 00:14:37,965 --> 00:14:40,805 Speaker 2: it eventually, I'll do it eventually. It's aspirational. 292 00:14:40,965 --> 00:14:42,085 Speaker 1: It's a work in progress. 293 00:14:43,725 --> 00:14:46,645 Speaker 2: Courtney kardashi In, the forty six year old reality star 294 00:14:46,805 --> 00:14:49,765 Speaker 2: and mum of four biological children and two step kids, 295 00:14:50,085 --> 00:14:53,565 Speaker 2: says going to school is dated and let me explain. 296 00:14:54,445 --> 00:14:54,605 Speaker 1: So. 297 00:14:54,645 --> 00:14:57,605 Speaker 2: She was recently on her sister Chloe's podcast and said 298 00:14:57,645 --> 00:15:01,125 Speaker 2: she has a rebel streak that includes questioning the purpose 299 00:15:01,205 --> 00:15:04,285 Speaker 2: of sending her kids to school. Apparently her kids started 300 00:15:04,325 --> 00:15:07,805 Speaker 2: sending her videos of successful people. She didn't quantify that. 301 00:15:07,885 --> 00:15:10,085 Speaker 2: I don't know what her definition is. I'm going to 302 00:15:10,125 --> 00:15:13,085 Speaker 2: say that coded for rich saying that their kids will 303 00:15:13,085 --> 00:15:16,245 Speaker 2: never go to school and when she really grappled with 304 00:15:16,285 --> 00:15:19,645 Speaker 2: what the goal was. She agreed that it was unnecessary 305 00:15:19,685 --> 00:15:24,285 Speaker 2: and decided to homeschool, and Chloe enthusiastically agreed. Now, there 306 00:15:24,365 --> 00:15:27,805 Speaker 2: are a myriad of reasons why you at homeschool your children. 307 00:15:28,125 --> 00:15:31,445 Speaker 2: But Amelia, do you think it's possible that Courtney just 308 00:15:31,525 --> 00:15:33,445 Speaker 2: got played by her kids who didn't want to go 309 00:15:33,445 --> 00:15:34,285 Speaker 2: to school next week? 310 00:15:34,445 --> 00:15:37,085 Speaker 1: I am intrigued by this notion of the videos of 311 00:15:37,205 --> 00:15:42,085 Speaker 1: successful people saying the kids will never go to school. Look, 312 00:15:42,125 --> 00:15:44,405 Speaker 1: I think this is part of a trend that has 313 00:15:44,405 --> 00:15:47,965 Speaker 1: come out of the US post COVID, and I'm actually 314 00:15:48,005 --> 00:15:51,604 Speaker 1: surprised that this trend has taken so long to make waves. Basically, 315 00:15:51,845 --> 00:15:54,965 Speaker 1: I think that as society becomes less equal, as the 316 00:15:55,125 --> 00:15:57,885 Speaker 1: very rich become not just very rich, but sort of 317 00:15:57,885 --> 00:16:02,325 Speaker 1: gluttonously extravagantly rich, there's no wonder they've decided school is 318 00:16:02,365 --> 00:16:05,405 Speaker 1: not for them. School is a fundamental leveling field. It's 319 00:16:05,445 --> 00:16:07,925 Speaker 1: a place where all children are meant to go to 320 00:16:08,045 --> 00:16:10,685 Speaker 1: learn the same things. And it's actually surprising that we've 321 00:16:10,685 --> 00:16:13,445 Speaker 1: managed to hold on to this kind of egalitarian institution 322 00:16:13,565 --> 00:16:16,605 Speaker 1: for as long as we have in such a stratified society. 323 00:16:16,885 --> 00:16:19,525 Speaker 2: So in Courtney's defense, does it kind of not matter 324 00:16:19,565 --> 00:16:22,245 Speaker 2: if her kids go to school? Like for the rest 325 00:16:22,285 --> 00:16:24,965 Speaker 2: of us, it does matter because it is a great equalizer. 326 00:16:25,365 --> 00:16:29,125 Speaker 2: But if you are the child of Kourtney Kardashian, maybe 327 00:16:29,165 --> 00:16:31,485 Speaker 2: you don't need that. Maybe you don't need that background. 328 00:16:31,525 --> 00:16:33,925 Speaker 1: Well, now that we have this phrase generational wealth in 329 00:16:33,965 --> 00:16:36,845 Speaker 1: the language, I guess it doesn't really matter from a 330 00:16:37,285 --> 00:16:40,565 Speaker 1: financial perspective. But I think that once the rich start 331 00:16:40,605 --> 00:16:43,725 Speaker 1: pulling their kids from school, the institution starts to crumble. 332 00:16:43,765 --> 00:16:46,445 Speaker 1: I'm very worried about this. We've seen it also in 333 00:16:46,485 --> 00:16:49,485 Speaker 1: the US with the way that Silicon Valley has rejected 334 00:16:49,485 --> 00:16:52,645 Speaker 1: the idea of higher education and of university. They've decided 335 00:16:52,685 --> 00:16:56,085 Speaker 1: that you don't intergo to university at all, no matter what. 336 00:16:56,525 --> 00:16:59,245 Speaker 1: It's a waste of time, it's indoctrinating you and certain 337 00:16:59,325 --> 00:17:02,525 Speaker 1: sort of center left ideological beliefs that they don't approve of. 338 00:17:03,125 --> 00:17:05,165 Speaker 1: Now they've come for school. It's all part of the 339 00:17:05,205 --> 00:17:05,885 Speaker 1: same movement. 340 00:17:06,165 --> 00:17:10,804 Speaker 2: There's obviously been this widespread rejection of institutions, some of 341 00:17:10,845 --> 00:17:13,965 Speaker 2: it which is really understandable. For example, the Catholic Church 342 00:17:14,165 --> 00:17:18,205 Speaker 2: that have been criticized, and understandably people are moving away 343 00:17:18,685 --> 00:17:25,244 Speaker 2: but there's also this rejection of education, of the scientific method, 344 00:17:25,845 --> 00:17:31,045 Speaker 2: of academia, of studies, of any sort of rigor to 345 00:17:31,565 --> 00:17:34,005 Speaker 2: the ideas that we put forward. And I wonder if 346 00:17:34,045 --> 00:17:36,685 Speaker 2: this is the beginning of the end in terms of 347 00:17:36,765 --> 00:17:39,764 Speaker 2: any sort of enlightenment ideals like it is worth reading 348 00:17:39,765 --> 00:17:42,885 Speaker 2: what other people say so that you can evolve how 349 00:17:42,925 --> 00:17:43,405 Speaker 2: you'd think. 350 00:17:43,484 --> 00:17:46,685 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fundamentally anti intellectual. And I think that what 351 00:17:46,925 --> 00:17:48,805 Speaker 1: is of a piece with it is the Robert F. 352 00:17:48,925 --> 00:17:52,965 Speaker 1: Kennedy Make America Healthy Again movement, This idea that the 353 00:17:53,045 --> 00:17:56,685 Speaker 1: scientists might say that vaccines are worthwhile and that fluoride 354 00:17:56,925 --> 00:18:00,165 Speaker 1: makes your team stronger, but what do they know. I'm 355 00:18:00,205 --> 00:18:04,365 Speaker 1: sure that Courtney Kardashian is sympathetic to that kind of 356 00:18:04,445 --> 00:18:07,764 Speaker 1: quasi scientific thinking as well. It's really a rejection not 357 00:18:07,845 --> 00:18:09,885 Speaker 1: just of education, but of expertise. 358 00:18:10,484 --> 00:18:13,405 Speaker 2: Yes, And the rejection of that expertise doesn't hurt the 359 00:18:13,484 --> 00:18:16,725 Speaker 2: Kurtnay Kardashians. It hurts the people who don't get the 360 00:18:16,805 --> 00:18:21,645 Speaker 2: vaccination and have comeobidities and a black or Hispanic and 361 00:18:21,885 --> 00:18:24,205 Speaker 2: have you know a number of things that would make 362 00:18:24,245 --> 00:18:27,925 Speaker 2: them particularly vulnerable to an illness. Right, And that's what 363 00:18:28,005 --> 00:18:32,165 Speaker 2: I think Hearing her talk about that, I agree made 364 00:18:32,165 --> 00:18:35,765 Speaker 2: me worried. And I agree as well that this has 365 00:18:35,805 --> 00:18:38,365 Speaker 2: a lot to do with the pandemic, because in Australia, 366 00:18:38,405 --> 00:18:42,725 Speaker 2: if you look at homeschooling rates absenteeism, which we should 367 00:18:42,765 --> 00:18:45,445 Speaker 2: say are not the same thing, but absenteeism school refusal, 368 00:18:46,205 --> 00:18:51,165 Speaker 2: they've gone through the roof, and experts have said they 369 00:18:51,325 --> 00:18:55,925 Speaker 2: think that COVID made parents see schooling as something that 370 00:18:55,965 --> 00:18:58,685 Speaker 2: could be done from home. So in the same way 371 00:18:58,725 --> 00:19:01,605 Speaker 2: that working from home became something all employees went, well, 372 00:19:01,605 --> 00:19:04,645 Speaker 2: it's possible, you just sent us home. If they saw 373 00:19:04,685 --> 00:19:06,845 Speaker 2: that as something that worked for them or was even 374 00:19:06,885 --> 00:19:09,925 Speaker 2: a possibility, then suddenly you've got literally there are more 375 00:19:09,925 --> 00:19:12,285 Speaker 2: Australian Is being homeschooled than ever before. And they say 376 00:19:12,325 --> 00:19:16,045 Speaker 2: that's a result of things like bullying, of obviously the 377 00:19:16,125 --> 00:19:18,845 Speaker 2: increase in tech that it can be done, and also 378 00:19:18,925 --> 00:19:22,285 Speaker 2: of safety like them not feeling safe at school, which 379 00:19:22,325 --> 00:19:27,125 Speaker 2: I think is everyone's prerogative. And also homeschooling is a 380 00:19:27,125 --> 00:19:29,605 Speaker 2: lot higher among people with an autism diagnosis or an 381 00:19:29,605 --> 00:19:32,285 Speaker 2: adh DE diagnosis. Maybe there's also a discussion to be 382 00:19:32,325 --> 00:19:35,125 Speaker 2: had about the failings of some schools to cater to 383 00:19:35,165 --> 00:19:36,205 Speaker 2: those diverse. 384 00:19:35,845 --> 00:19:39,685 Speaker 1: Needs, and specifically the underfunding of public education around the 385 00:19:39,685 --> 00:19:42,524 Speaker 1: country as well. I've heard similar things from friends in 386 00:19:42,565 --> 00:19:45,324 Speaker 1: the US. I have a friend in a US state 387 00:19:45,525 --> 00:19:50,205 Speaker 1: that is very religious and she has to homeschool her 388 00:19:50,285 --> 00:19:53,085 Speaker 1: child because they do not have a lot of schools 389 00:19:53,125 --> 00:19:56,445 Speaker 1: to choose from around and her child has many additional 390 00:19:56,484 --> 00:19:59,525 Speaker 1: needs that the local schools were just not really able 391 00:19:59,525 --> 00:20:03,125 Speaker 1: to meet, so they made the decision to hire a 392 00:20:03,165 --> 00:20:07,004 Speaker 1: private tutor and homeschool their child. When she went to 393 00:20:07,045 --> 00:20:10,685 Speaker 1: the local town office to put in the upp location 394 00:20:10,805 --> 00:20:14,005 Speaker 1: to homeschool, she was shocked by how easy it was 395 00:20:14,125 --> 00:20:16,004 Speaker 1: to say that you're going to homeschool your child, and 396 00:20:16,045 --> 00:20:19,804 Speaker 1: how little supervision was applied to this process. So she 397 00:20:19,925 --> 00:20:23,445 Speaker 1: basically filled in a one page form that asked her 398 00:20:23,565 --> 00:20:25,685 Speaker 1: very little about what she was going to teach, didn't 399 00:20:25,725 --> 00:20:28,965 Speaker 1: provide her with any resources visa VIE, curriculum or anything else. 400 00:20:29,525 --> 00:20:31,765 Speaker 1: She essentially just had to say, I want to homeschool 401 00:20:31,805 --> 00:20:33,925 Speaker 1: my child. I don't need to tell you the reasons, 402 00:20:34,005 --> 00:20:37,085 Speaker 1: and then got approved for it. And it was really 403 00:20:37,165 --> 00:20:39,885 Speaker 1: viscerally upsetting to her because while she's going to be 404 00:20:40,005 --> 00:20:43,285 Speaker 1: making sure that her child is meeting the state curriculum 405 00:20:43,285 --> 00:20:45,965 Speaker 1: requirements and has been in a position where she can 406 00:20:46,045 --> 00:20:48,324 Speaker 1: hire a tutor who she feels really confident in that 407 00:20:48,405 --> 00:20:51,764 Speaker 1: can educate her child properly. There are many people in 408 00:20:51,805 --> 00:20:56,325 Speaker 1: this state who clearly have parents who are not necessarily 409 00:20:56,605 --> 00:20:59,205 Speaker 1: trying to check all those boxes and are doing it 410 00:20:59,245 --> 00:21:01,484 Speaker 1: because they don't want them to be exposed to a 411 00:21:01,525 --> 00:21:05,244 Speaker 1: mainstream school curriculum. And that's really concerning to me. 412 00:21:05,405 --> 00:21:08,725 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And that speaks to the Courtney 413 00:21:08,805 --> 00:21:12,445 Speaker 2: Kardashi an example too, because I don't think any of 414 00:21:12,525 --> 00:21:14,365 Speaker 2: us would imagine that Courtney is going to sit at 415 00:21:14,365 --> 00:21:16,805 Speaker 2: home and teach maths like that's access to a private 416 00:21:16,805 --> 00:21:20,004 Speaker 2: shootor which is again like something that's on offer to 417 00:21:20,605 --> 00:21:24,165 Speaker 2: some families and not to others. Another thing that I've 418 00:21:24,165 --> 00:21:28,405 Speaker 2: heard everyone in my family, teachers and both my parents 419 00:21:28,445 --> 00:21:32,685 Speaker 2: spoke about an enormous rise in this school refusal phenomenon 420 00:21:32,765 --> 00:21:36,325 Speaker 2: after COVID. It's been almost rebranded by some people in 421 00:21:36,365 --> 00:21:40,765 Speaker 2: the space as school can't because they say refusal suggests 422 00:21:41,085 --> 00:21:43,285 Speaker 2: they're making a decision, and these are kids who cannot 423 00:21:43,405 --> 00:21:47,484 Speaker 2: go to school, and so all these psychologists are trying 424 00:21:47,484 --> 00:21:49,284 Speaker 2: to work out what to do because in Australia, you 425 00:21:49,365 --> 00:21:51,484 Speaker 2: have to go to school, like there are repercussions and 426 00:21:51,525 --> 00:21:53,725 Speaker 2: the school has to get involved, and it can be 427 00:21:53,765 --> 00:21:56,925 Speaker 2: really complicated. I would look at these stories and kind 428 00:21:56,925 --> 00:21:59,165 Speaker 2: of go, all right, there were days I didn't want 429 00:21:59,165 --> 00:22:01,004 Speaker 2: to go to school either, like I didn't have a 430 00:22:01,045 --> 00:22:03,605 Speaker 2: lot of empathy for it. And Dad told me this 431 00:22:03,765 --> 00:22:06,885 Speaker 2: story about a kid, the poor mother just putting the 432 00:22:06,925 --> 00:22:09,165 Speaker 2: kid in the car and dads standing there and the 433 00:22:09,205 --> 00:22:11,685 Speaker 2: mother just trying to like pull him by his ankles 434 00:22:11,685 --> 00:22:13,325 Speaker 2: and being like, you have to go to school, this 435 00:22:13,445 --> 00:22:16,965 Speaker 2: is so important, and the kid just couldn't, like couldn't 436 00:22:17,005 --> 00:22:18,365 Speaker 2: go into the classroom. 437 00:22:18,484 --> 00:22:19,725 Speaker 1: This is a post COVID study. 438 00:22:19,765 --> 00:22:23,284 Speaker 2: This is a post COVID story. And the numbers nearly 439 00:22:23,365 --> 00:22:26,004 Speaker 2: half of all students missed ten percent of school in 440 00:22:26,045 --> 00:22:30,125 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, so that's actually quite a lot. The 441 00:22:30,205 --> 00:22:35,445 Speaker 2: sick days thing is becoming more and more prominent, which 442 00:22:35,484 --> 00:22:38,004 Speaker 2: I guess is probably to do with screens. But again 443 00:22:38,685 --> 00:22:42,365 Speaker 2: the idea that it's optional. When something becomes optional as well, 444 00:22:42,405 --> 00:22:45,645 Speaker 2: then I suppose you go. I'm not going to go today. 445 00:22:46,005 --> 00:22:49,445 Speaker 1: I was surprised when I started my kids at their 446 00:22:49,525 --> 00:22:53,525 Speaker 1: school that they still give out prizes for best attendancy. 447 00:22:53,605 --> 00:22:56,405 Speaker 2: Yes, that's controversial, contras, I can. 448 00:22:56,365 --> 00:22:59,764 Speaker 1: See why, because kids can't help it when they get sick. 449 00:23:00,085 --> 00:23:03,445 Speaker 1: Do we learn nothing from COVID? I'm just really surprised. 450 00:23:03,725 --> 00:23:06,125 Speaker 1: Why do you think schools? I mean, I guess I'm 451 00:23:06,165 --> 00:23:08,044 Speaker 1: going to answer something own question here. I think schools 452 00:23:08,045 --> 00:23:10,845 Speaker 1: are persisting with that idea of perfect and tended and 453 00:23:10,925 --> 00:23:13,845 Speaker 1: rewarding kids who make it into school the most because 454 00:23:13,845 --> 00:23:18,284 Speaker 1: they're seeing this trend of school refusal or school can't 455 00:23:18,405 --> 00:23:21,284 Speaker 1: and they want to hammer home what an example of 456 00:23:21,325 --> 00:23:22,205 Speaker 1: a kid showing up. 457 00:23:22,165 --> 00:23:23,925 Speaker 2: Every day looks like and the importance of sitting in 458 00:23:23,925 --> 00:23:26,764 Speaker 2: the classroom, because my parents would say that, you know, 459 00:23:26,805 --> 00:23:28,325 Speaker 2: you might look at your nine, or you might look 460 00:23:28,325 --> 00:23:30,965 Speaker 2: at your five and go, come on, what's a day? 461 00:23:31,285 --> 00:23:35,524 Speaker 2: But if you repeatedly miss that, there are certain blocks 462 00:23:35,565 --> 00:23:38,284 Speaker 2: in learning that are very difficult to catch up on. 463 00:23:38,445 --> 00:23:40,165 Speaker 2: So there is something that you will learn in year five. 464 00:23:40,205 --> 00:23:41,804 Speaker 2: I'm not saying on one day. I'm just saying, like, 465 00:23:41,845 --> 00:23:44,125 Speaker 2: if you you know, and people who have had a 466 00:23:44,165 --> 00:23:46,685 Speaker 2: prolonged illness will know this, you miss that and it 467 00:23:46,765 --> 00:23:48,524 Speaker 2: become very hard to catch up in year six or 468 00:23:48,565 --> 00:23:51,085 Speaker 2: year seven. So I suppose it is like, if you're 469 00:23:51,125 --> 00:23:55,405 Speaker 2: on the fence, go, but presentee is a more forcing 470 00:23:55,445 --> 00:23:56,725 Speaker 2: that also isn't the ideal? 471 00:23:57,125 --> 00:23:58,965 Speaker 1: Yes, So I guess we're kind of talking about a 472 00:23:58,965 --> 00:24:03,405 Speaker 1: few different things here. One is the rise of homeschooling, 473 00:24:03,445 --> 00:24:07,685 Speaker 1: which I think we can attribute to the general decline 474 00:24:07,725 --> 00:24:11,605 Speaker 1: of trust in authority and expertise post COVID, And it's 475 00:24:11,685 --> 00:24:13,965 Speaker 1: right now. It's being led by very wealthy people, I 476 00:24:13,965 --> 00:24:16,285 Speaker 1: would say, who want to control what their children learn 477 00:24:16,325 --> 00:24:17,765 Speaker 1: and are maybe not very interested. 478 00:24:18,125 --> 00:24:20,365 Speaker 2: And then on the other hand, people with kids with 479 00:24:20,565 --> 00:24:24,005 Speaker 2: different needs. I think that's the other group. Yeah, we've 480 00:24:24,045 --> 00:24:27,244 Speaker 2: probably got to acknowledge and in fact, for them, the 481 00:24:27,325 --> 00:24:29,125 Speaker 2: outcomes are really good. 482 00:24:30,445 --> 00:24:33,205 Speaker 1: Liv Schmidt is a twenty three year old model in 483 00:24:33,205 --> 00:24:36,165 Speaker 1: New York City who makes her money encouraging women and 484 00:24:36,205 --> 00:24:40,165 Speaker 1: girls to follow the skinny lifestyle. This was a story 485 00:24:40,205 --> 00:24:43,524 Speaker 1: in The Cut last week that is causing people to 486 00:24:43,565 --> 00:24:46,685 Speaker 1: lose their minds. Basically, I knew nothing about this but 487 00:24:46,805 --> 00:24:49,405 Speaker 1: Live Schmidt. She was on TikTok until last year, then 488 00:24:49,445 --> 00:24:52,244 Speaker 1: she was banned after a Wall Street Journal article. Now 489 00:24:52,285 --> 00:24:55,405 Speaker 1: she's on Instagram. She's just been banned from Instagram as 490 00:24:55,445 --> 00:24:59,284 Speaker 1: a result of this article. Basically, she mocks women who 491 00:24:59,405 --> 00:25:03,365 Speaker 1: she says are large and fat. She posts videos where 492 00:25:03,365 --> 00:25:06,484 Speaker 1: she says things like girls be three hundred pounds, saying 493 00:25:06,645 --> 00:25:10,805 Speaker 1: I'm a snack. No Megatron, you're the fkn vending machine. 494 00:25:11,245 --> 00:25:14,044 Speaker 1: So just really nice things like that. She has a 495 00:25:14,085 --> 00:25:19,285 Speaker 1: subscription only group called Skinny Society, which, for twenty dollars 496 00:25:19,365 --> 00:25:23,405 Speaker 1: a month, members gain access to exclusive content, including recipes, 497 00:25:23,445 --> 00:25:27,325 Speaker 1: workout videos, and diaries of everything Schmid eats in one day. 498 00:25:28,125 --> 00:25:31,565 Speaker 1: She gained some notoriety recently because she said that instead 499 00:25:31,565 --> 00:25:36,844 Speaker 1: of having dessert, you could swallow your boyfriend's semen, and 500 00:25:36,885 --> 00:25:39,605 Speaker 1: she said that semen's only something like five calories of 501 00:25:39,685 --> 00:25:42,445 Speaker 1: tea spoon, so that's good to know. There's also a 502 00:25:42,484 --> 00:25:45,325 Speaker 1: group dm thread that you get access to where people 503 00:25:45,365 --> 00:25:49,804 Speaker 1: basically egg themselves on to eat less. And it's just 504 00:25:49,965 --> 00:25:54,405 Speaker 1: really distressing to read about airmail. The publication Airmail recently 505 00:25:54,525 --> 00:25:57,045 Speaker 1: estimated that she makes one hundred and thirty thousand US 506 00:25:57,085 --> 00:25:59,324 Speaker 1: dollars a month from the six and a half thousand 507 00:25:59,365 --> 00:26:03,765 Speaker 1: members in the Skinny Society. So look, I think why 508 00:26:03,805 --> 00:26:07,125 Speaker 1: this article made such as splash is that people definitely 509 00:26:07,125 --> 00:26:11,004 Speaker 1: did not realize how thriving this somewhat underground community is 510 00:26:11,325 --> 00:26:14,645 Speaker 1: because as shown by the fact that TikTok and Meta 511 00:26:14,685 --> 00:26:17,485 Speaker 1: both had to ban her after news articles came out, 512 00:26:17,565 --> 00:26:20,965 Speaker 1: so clearly they're not moderating their platforms very well. If 513 00:26:21,005 --> 00:26:24,085 Speaker 1: you search skinny or skinny talk on TikTok and Instagram, 514 00:26:24,245 --> 00:26:27,484 Speaker 1: you'll apparently see thousands of videos along these lines of 515 00:26:27,645 --> 00:26:31,965 Speaker 1: very thin women showing off their locale diets. What's interesting 516 00:26:32,005 --> 00:26:34,885 Speaker 1: about liv Schmidt to me, having lived through the nineties 517 00:26:34,925 --> 00:26:38,165 Speaker 1: and Kate Moss and heroin Chic, is that she's very 518 00:26:38,205 --> 00:26:42,885 Speaker 1: careful not to advocate for particular foods, particular diets. She 519 00:26:43,045 --> 00:26:46,605 Speaker 1: frames it all in this sort of faux feminist empowering language. 520 00:26:46,645 --> 00:26:49,325 Speaker 1: She says things like eat like you're the main character, 521 00:26:49,445 --> 00:26:52,885 Speaker 1: because you are. She says, eat like your highest self 522 00:26:52,965 --> 00:26:57,365 Speaker 1: is watching. So it's a very interesting kind of twist 523 00:26:57,565 --> 00:27:01,725 Speaker 1: on that feminist rhetoric to basically further eating disorders. And 524 00:27:01,925 --> 00:27:04,764 Speaker 1: the Cut article found evidence of girls in high school 525 00:27:04,845 --> 00:27:08,805 Speaker 1: posting on skinny society, including about how thin they were 526 00:27:09,205 --> 00:27:12,605 Speaker 1: for their graduations. I was shocked by this, but maybe 527 00:27:12,605 --> 00:27:15,764 Speaker 1: that's because I'm not super immersed in social media. Jesse, 528 00:27:16,085 --> 00:27:18,804 Speaker 1: how did this article make you feel? Were you shocked 529 00:27:18,845 --> 00:27:19,205 Speaker 1: by it. 530 00:27:19,605 --> 00:27:23,844 Speaker 2: I was because I'm not being served this. But then 531 00:27:23,885 --> 00:27:26,445 Speaker 2: the way the algorithms work, the people who will be 532 00:27:26,484 --> 00:27:30,205 Speaker 2: most sensitive to it will And maybe it's easy for 533 00:27:30,285 --> 00:27:33,365 Speaker 2: us to assume that the culture has shifted. But I 534 00:27:33,725 --> 00:27:36,845 Speaker 2: was at something a few weeks ago where it was 535 00:27:36,885 --> 00:27:38,885 Speaker 2: like a kid's fun day thing, right, and there was 536 00:27:38,925 --> 00:27:40,925 Speaker 2: like an obstacle course. There was a jumping castle and 537 00:27:40,965 --> 00:27:44,725 Speaker 2: there was face painting, and in the obstacle course there 538 00:27:44,845 --> 00:27:48,445 Speaker 2: was a tunnel thing, you know, kids like run through 539 00:27:48,445 --> 00:27:50,885 Speaker 2: these little tunnels. And there was a girl she might 540 00:27:50,885 --> 00:27:54,405 Speaker 2: have been six or seven, and she was standing there 541 00:27:55,005 --> 00:27:56,885 Speaker 2: and her friend said why aren't you going through the 542 00:27:56,925 --> 00:27:59,525 Speaker 2: tunnel like because she hadn't been doing it, and she said, 543 00:28:00,045 --> 00:28:03,125 Speaker 2: I can't fit through the tunnel. I'm too fat. And 544 00:28:03,205 --> 00:28:06,725 Speaker 2: the look on this girl's face, I went, oh, I 545 00:28:06,725 --> 00:28:09,245 Speaker 2: thought that didn't happen anything. Yes, I thought that that's 546 00:28:09,285 --> 00:28:11,445 Speaker 2: not how we spoke exactly. It wasn't that she said 547 00:28:11,445 --> 00:28:13,325 Speaker 2: I can't fit, because she could have gone I'm too big. 548 00:28:13,365 --> 00:28:14,764 Speaker 2: She was a little bit older than the four year 549 00:28:14,765 --> 00:28:17,805 Speaker 2: olds going through. It was the way the word fat 550 00:28:17,845 --> 00:28:20,885 Speaker 2: came out of her mouth that I went, oh, that's 551 00:28:20,925 --> 00:28:24,725 Speaker 2: got to her at seven. Yeah, like that is sickening. 552 00:28:25,005 --> 00:28:29,485 Speaker 2: There is so much information now on food and solids 553 00:28:29,525 --> 00:28:32,205 Speaker 2: and feeding and all of that and how to prevent 554 00:28:32,845 --> 00:28:34,844 Speaker 2: you know, restriction and all of that. And I've been 555 00:28:34,885 --> 00:28:37,325 Speaker 2: deep in this because I have a child who eating 556 00:28:37,365 --> 00:28:40,365 Speaker 2: has never been very straightforward, and the idea that you 557 00:28:40,445 --> 00:28:42,645 Speaker 2: put it there and you decide when you're full and 558 00:28:42,685 --> 00:28:47,285 Speaker 2: you don't comment on things like that. But I've certainly 559 00:28:47,405 --> 00:28:52,005 Speaker 2: noticed that even like oh, she's so little or whatever, 560 00:28:52,805 --> 00:28:58,845 Speaker 2: has already started. And I wonder how you then protect 561 00:28:59,005 --> 00:29:02,445 Speaker 2: them from because inevitably, and I went through this, you 562 00:29:02,485 --> 00:29:04,845 Speaker 2: then go through puberty where your body starts to change 563 00:29:04,885 --> 00:29:07,365 Speaker 2: and suddenly you know, maybe you're not that little, or 564 00:29:07,405 --> 00:29:10,085 Speaker 2: parts of you, whatever it is, it's a really hard 565 00:29:10,085 --> 00:29:13,805 Speaker 2: thing to sort of recalibrate. I wouldn't think that seven 566 00:29:13,885 --> 00:29:15,765 Speaker 2: year old is even on social media, so I imagine 567 00:29:15,765 --> 00:29:18,085 Speaker 2: that it's just coming into the well. It's plackground. 568 00:29:18,125 --> 00:29:21,605 Speaker 1: As you point out, with your own child, people are 569 00:29:21,645 --> 00:29:26,885 Speaker 1: already judging or commenting on her body, on Luna's body, 570 00:29:27,485 --> 00:29:31,845 Speaker 1: so it's happening early. And I completely agree with what 571 00:29:31,885 --> 00:29:35,085 Speaker 1: you said about thinking that we were over this, because 572 00:29:35,125 --> 00:29:38,045 Speaker 1: you and I both lived through the body positivity moment 573 00:29:38,245 --> 00:29:40,885 Speaker 1: in the mid two thousands, and thinking back to I 574 00:29:40,925 --> 00:29:44,084 Speaker 1: guess it all started actually with the Dove ads and 575 00:29:44,125 --> 00:29:46,925 Speaker 1: then it kind of snowballed from there, and it coincided 576 00:29:46,965 --> 00:29:49,725 Speaker 1: actually with the decline of magazines, which is where I 577 00:29:49,965 --> 00:29:53,605 Speaker 1: certainly inhaled a lot of this content in the nineties, 578 00:29:54,045 --> 00:29:55,805 Speaker 1: and I sort of thought we were just beyond it, 579 00:29:55,845 --> 00:29:58,285 Speaker 1: that along with them on nuanced understanding of things like 580 00:29:58,365 --> 00:30:02,445 Speaker 1: sexuality and race relations and the environment and taking care 581 00:30:02,485 --> 00:30:05,485 Speaker 1: of the environment, we were just getting more progressive, more enlightened, 582 00:30:05,525 --> 00:30:07,685 Speaker 1: and that our children wouldn't have to deal with this. 583 00:30:08,005 --> 00:30:10,605 Speaker 1: While it turns out I was wrong, and what came 584 00:30:10,605 --> 00:30:14,125 Speaker 1: through to me in this cut article is that every 585 00:30:14,205 --> 00:30:18,085 Speaker 1: generation ends up having this issue, and it's just that 586 00:30:18,165 --> 00:30:20,365 Speaker 1: the language around it changes and the media in which 587 00:30:20,365 --> 00:30:23,285 Speaker 1: it's consumed changes. So I mentioned that for me in 588 00:30:23,325 --> 00:30:26,045 Speaker 1: the nineties, it was very much magazines that were conveying 589 00:30:26,085 --> 00:30:28,365 Speaker 1: the diet tips. In the early two thousands, it was 590 00:30:28,405 --> 00:30:31,365 Speaker 1: probably live journal, Tumblr of those kinds of platforms. 591 00:30:31,405 --> 00:30:34,725 Speaker 2: Oh Tumbler, I forgot, how And that was very much 592 00:30:34,805 --> 00:30:38,205 Speaker 2: the image that it had. This Really there was a 593 00:30:38,325 --> 00:30:41,965 Speaker 2: term that was used that was almost hashtagged, and it 594 00:30:42,045 --> 00:30:45,125 Speaker 2: attracted people who were struggling with eating disorders and glorified 595 00:30:45,245 --> 00:30:45,765 Speaker 2: bro Anna. 596 00:30:45,885 --> 00:30:48,245 Speaker 1: Right, yes, yes, yeah, so that was the thing then 597 00:30:48,325 --> 00:30:50,725 Speaker 1: and now it's just moved on to a different platform. 598 00:30:51,205 --> 00:30:53,245 Speaker 1: What I want to ask you is, do you think 599 00:30:53,285 --> 00:30:55,885 Speaker 1: that there is any escaping it or is this kind 600 00:30:55,965 --> 00:30:59,845 Speaker 1: of like nihilistic idea that every generation of young women 601 00:31:00,005 --> 00:31:02,245 Speaker 1: inevitably has to cope with this. 602 00:31:02,805 --> 00:31:05,525 Speaker 2: I think it's true that we had this optimism. I 603 00:31:05,565 --> 00:31:07,925 Speaker 2: remember hearing mums talk about it in the office of like, 604 00:31:08,005 --> 00:31:10,005 Speaker 2: I'm going to get my daughter when she has a phone, 605 00:31:10,045 --> 00:31:12,765 Speaker 2: I'll just follow a bunch of diverse people on Instagram, 606 00:31:12,845 --> 00:31:14,725 Speaker 2: so she'll see all of those images and it'll be 607 00:31:14,765 --> 00:31:18,165 Speaker 2: the antithesis of a magazine or whatever because she'll have 608 00:31:18,205 --> 00:31:20,925 Speaker 2: all of these different bodies and shapes coming up. You 609 00:31:21,045 --> 00:31:23,885 Speaker 2: can't do that on TikTok, like you just can't. 610 00:31:23,765 --> 00:31:26,405 Speaker 1: And won't curate in that way. No control. 611 00:31:26,725 --> 00:31:29,205 Speaker 2: All it takes is you know, I'm pretty sure if 612 00:31:29,205 --> 00:31:31,604 Speaker 2: that app knows that you're a young girl, it's going 613 00:31:31,645 --> 00:31:33,844 Speaker 2: to go I know what to give you, and then 614 00:31:33,885 --> 00:31:36,005 Speaker 2: all you have to do is stay for a second, 615 00:31:36,285 --> 00:31:39,005 Speaker 2: and you're just going to get more and more so 616 00:31:39,125 --> 00:31:42,965 Speaker 2: in that way. I don't think so. But from what 617 00:31:43,085 --> 00:31:46,365 Speaker 2: I've heard, people I know that grew up with a 618 00:31:46,405 --> 00:31:51,325 Speaker 2: real complex around weight seemed to absorb some of that 619 00:31:51,885 --> 00:31:55,885 Speaker 2: from their family, And I just maybe the hope or 620 00:31:55,925 --> 00:31:58,165 Speaker 2: the thing that I go the difference we can make 621 00:31:58,285 --> 00:32:00,805 Speaker 2: is like how we talk about it inside the house, yes, 622 00:32:01,125 --> 00:32:03,604 Speaker 2: and the language, how you speak about other people, how 623 00:32:03,645 --> 00:32:05,725 Speaker 2: you speak about food, how you speak about bodies, how 624 00:32:05,765 --> 00:32:07,365 Speaker 2: you look at yourself in the mirror, all of those 625 00:32:07,405 --> 00:32:09,925 Speaker 2: things I think does impact it. I grew up with 626 00:32:09,965 --> 00:32:14,165 Speaker 2: a mum who never commented on her body once, not negatively, 627 00:32:14,325 --> 00:32:16,965 Speaker 2: not her face, not anything, and I think it was 628 00:32:17,045 --> 00:32:19,005 Speaker 2: just like to me in my house, it felt irrelevant, 629 00:32:19,485 --> 00:32:22,365 Speaker 2: whereas I know that that really impacted other people who 630 00:32:22,405 --> 00:32:23,685 Speaker 2: grew up with a different experience. 631 00:32:24,005 --> 00:32:26,885 Speaker 1: It's also really hard to escape even when you are 632 00:32:26,925 --> 00:32:31,445 Speaker 1: trying to create a body neutral space within your family. So, 633 00:32:31,525 --> 00:32:34,725 Speaker 1: for instance, I loved roll Dyal books growing up. 634 00:32:34,805 --> 00:32:35,805 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, been. 635 00:32:35,685 --> 00:32:38,925 Speaker 1: Reading them to my children, Matilda, Charlie and the Chocolate 636 00:32:38,965 --> 00:32:42,005 Speaker 1: Factory and the Twits. And the problem with these books 637 00:32:42,085 --> 00:32:48,005 Speaker 1: is that the word fat and the idea that people 638 00:32:48,085 --> 00:32:51,005 Speaker 1: who are ugly on the inside are always ugly on 639 00:32:51,045 --> 00:32:53,845 Speaker 1: the outside, and that those two things are essentially synonymous. 640 00:32:53,885 --> 00:32:58,765 Speaker 1: It pervades those books a sort of repulsion for women's bodies, 641 00:32:59,005 --> 00:33:03,085 Speaker 1: particularly fat women's bodies, particularly women who are maybe not 642 00:33:03,285 --> 00:33:07,725 Speaker 1: your platonic ideal of beauty and the merging of the 643 00:33:07,765 --> 00:33:12,005 Speaker 1: inner and outer self. It's there just through those books. 644 00:33:12,045 --> 00:33:15,165 Speaker 1: It's shot through them, and a lot of older books 645 00:33:15,485 --> 00:33:18,565 Speaker 1: do have that idea of inner beauty being the same 646 00:33:18,605 --> 00:33:21,165 Speaker 1: as out of beauty, and if fairy tales have it too. 647 00:33:21,205 --> 00:33:24,925 Speaker 1: In fact, the ugly stepsisters in Cinderella, for instance, they're 648 00:33:24,965 --> 00:33:29,765 Speaker 1: both ugly and mean. Cinderella is both beautiful and kind, 649 00:33:30,445 --> 00:33:34,125 Speaker 1: and to decouple those qualities if you're going to read 650 00:33:34,125 --> 00:33:37,485 Speaker 1: classic kids literature, it's really difficult to convey that those 651 00:33:37,485 --> 00:33:38,965 Speaker 1: two things are not synonymous. 652 00:33:39,165 --> 00:33:42,405 Speaker 2: That must be why every children's book now is animal. 653 00:33:42,845 --> 00:33:45,565 Speaker 2: It's like it's a gendlest animal because it's like we 654 00:33:45,605 --> 00:33:48,325 Speaker 2: could project on it. It doesn't matter the size. Sometimes 655 00:33:48,325 --> 00:33:50,965 Speaker 2: it's an elephant, sometimes it's a mouse. But it's like 656 00:33:51,205 --> 00:33:54,365 Speaker 2: you don't get all of that complexity of trying to 657 00:33:54,405 --> 00:33:58,205 Speaker 2: then identify them into a certain body or you know that's. 658 00:33:58,045 --> 00:34:01,645 Speaker 1: True because it is also quite recent that we've started 659 00:34:01,645 --> 00:34:04,485 Speaker 1: to talk about this in this way. For instance, Harry 660 00:34:04,525 --> 00:34:07,405 Speaker 1: Potter is full of the same thing, and that was 661 00:34:07,445 --> 00:34:10,884 Speaker 1: written in the two thousands. So it just goes to 662 00:34:10,964 --> 00:34:13,844 Speaker 1: show that we're hopefully on the cutting edge of trying 663 00:34:13,884 --> 00:34:16,805 Speaker 1: to teach a different thing to our children. But then again, 664 00:34:17,325 --> 00:34:19,805 Speaker 1: I'm sure our feminist mothers thought that they were doing 665 00:34:19,844 --> 00:34:23,524 Speaker 1: that too. Alright, it's time for recommendations, Jesse, what have 666 00:34:23,564 --> 00:34:24,204 Speaker 1: you got for us? 667 00:34:24,404 --> 00:34:26,165 Speaker 2: Amelia? Have you ever been to a toy library? 668 00:34:26,285 --> 00:34:28,884 Speaker 1: No? I see these sides, tell me what they're If 669 00:34:28,924 --> 00:34:30,245 Speaker 1: they sound wondering. 670 00:34:29,844 --> 00:34:32,645 Speaker 2: They're so good and it's so not something I would 671 00:34:33,285 --> 00:34:35,085 Speaker 2: ever have gone and found. 672 00:34:35,165 --> 00:34:37,485 Speaker 1: Well, it would be weird if you didn't have kids 673 00:34:37,524 --> 00:34:40,125 Speaker 1: and were just hanging out at toy library exactly. 674 00:34:40,165 --> 00:34:43,404 Speaker 2: But the toy library is part of my local library, 675 00:34:43,404 --> 00:34:46,245 Speaker 2: which is on my string. That's so very, very easy. 676 00:34:46,364 --> 00:34:47,844 Speaker 2: But I looked it up and there are hundreds across 677 00:34:47,884 --> 00:34:50,565 Speaker 2: the country. It's not just my neighborhood. But a toy 678 00:34:50,645 --> 00:34:53,884 Speaker 2: library is literally you go in and it's got every 679 00:34:53,964 --> 00:34:57,285 Speaker 2: toy you could possibly imagine. It has costumes. You know, 680 00:34:57,364 --> 00:34:59,925 Speaker 2: there's a stage at which they might like a little 681 00:34:59,924 --> 00:35:02,325 Speaker 2: pram to practice their walking because and you know, you 682 00:35:02,364 --> 00:35:04,325 Speaker 2: need that for like two months and then you never 683 00:35:04,364 --> 00:35:07,244 Speaker 2: need it again. It has things like that, and then 684 00:35:07,325 --> 00:35:09,605 Speaker 2: you do aigh. I think it was like seventy bucks 685 00:35:09,604 --> 00:35:12,285 Speaker 2: for twelve month subscription and I could go every week 686 00:35:12,444 --> 00:35:14,124 Speaker 2: if I want it, and I can get like three 687 00:35:14,205 --> 00:35:16,084 Speaker 2: or four toys, and then I get three at a time. 688 00:35:16,285 --> 00:35:16,444 Speaker 1: Yeah. 689 00:35:16,524 --> 00:35:19,364 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you get multiple toys return them. And I 690 00:35:19,404 --> 00:35:21,124 Speaker 2: was like, can I donate toys to this because I 691 00:35:21,165 --> 00:35:23,844 Speaker 2: remember reading something a while ago about how there's an 692 00:35:23,884 --> 00:35:27,604 Speaker 2: ideal amount of toys. They say it's between ten and 693 00:35:27,645 --> 00:35:32,444 Speaker 2: fifteen so and probably wouldn't and probably wouldn't And it 694 00:35:32,524 --> 00:35:36,284 Speaker 2: inspires creativity because it's like, if they don't have the doll, 695 00:35:36,604 --> 00:35:38,444 Speaker 2: then they have to make the doll out of playtoes, 696 00:35:38,564 --> 00:35:41,084 Speaker 2: which is yeah, yeah, that's. 697 00:35:41,125 --> 00:35:42,804 Speaker 1: That's where my parents went wrong. 698 00:35:44,205 --> 00:35:46,724 Speaker 2: But Toy Library is so so good because we all 699 00:35:46,765 --> 00:35:49,844 Speaker 2: know the clutter everything. Often your kid just wants it 700 00:35:49,844 --> 00:35:51,604 Speaker 2: for two weeks and then it disappears and they never 701 00:35:51,645 --> 00:35:52,404 Speaker 2: think about it again. 702 00:35:52,524 --> 00:35:53,484 Speaker 1: So I love that. 703 00:35:53,285 --> 00:35:56,045 Speaker 2: That's my my hack. How about you, Amelia. 704 00:35:56,165 --> 00:35:59,564 Speaker 1: My recommendation is one very near and dear to my heart. 705 00:35:59,725 --> 00:36:02,125 Speaker 1: It's been a companion in my life. For years now. 706 00:36:02,325 --> 00:36:06,004 Speaker 1: It's a podcast. It's called Grim Grimmer, Grimist. Have you 707 00:36:06,044 --> 00:36:06,524 Speaker 1: heard of it? 708 00:36:06,564 --> 00:36:07,805 Speaker 2: Is it Grim Brothers related? 709 00:36:07,884 --> 00:36:08,124 Speaker 1: Yes? 710 00:36:08,125 --> 00:36:09,045 Speaker 2: Oh I love them? 711 00:36:09,524 --> 00:36:12,685 Speaker 1: Yes, it grim fairy tales. I mean the Grim Brothers 712 00:36:12,685 --> 00:36:14,685 Speaker 1: are like true crime for the eighteenth century? 713 00:36:14,844 --> 00:36:16,765 Speaker 2: Right, Were they twins or just brothers? I think they 714 00:36:16,805 --> 00:36:18,964 Speaker 2: want maybe just brothers. But Clara and I find them 715 00:36:19,044 --> 00:36:21,924 Speaker 2: very inspiring because they watchmen. Yeah, it's really sweet. 716 00:36:22,004 --> 00:36:25,204 Speaker 1: So the host is Adam Gidwitz. It's an American podcast, 717 00:36:25,364 --> 00:36:28,404 Speaker 1: and the fifth season of this podcast drops, And yes 718 00:36:28,444 --> 00:36:31,285 Speaker 1: I did say dropped. I'm very excited about it. Dropped 719 00:36:31,325 --> 00:36:34,805 Speaker 1: a couple of days ago. That's my household version of 720 00:36:34,844 --> 00:36:36,805 Speaker 1: rep TV. Just to give you a sense of how 721 00:36:36,844 --> 00:36:39,965 Speaker 1: exciting this is. So here's the premise. Adam Gibwitz goes 722 00:36:39,964 --> 00:36:42,484 Speaker 1: to the classroom of a very fancy school in Brooklyn, 723 00:36:42,484 --> 00:36:45,125 Speaker 1: New York to tell grim fairy tales, and he records 724 00:36:45,165 --> 00:36:48,604 Speaker 1: himself telling the story and also records the kids responding 725 00:36:48,685 --> 00:36:52,124 Speaker 1: in real time to the story. So this podcast works 726 00:36:52,125 --> 00:36:55,884 Speaker 1: on a number of levels for parents. There's something slightly 727 00:36:55,964 --> 00:36:59,444 Speaker 1: voyeuristic about the milieu of this podcast, which is, like 728 00:36:59,484 --> 00:37:02,125 Speaker 1: I mentioned this very fancy school because the kid's parents, 729 00:37:02,165 --> 00:37:05,444 Speaker 1: you learn through their anecdotes, are all like really fancy careers, 730 00:37:05,444 --> 00:37:08,805 Speaker 1: like their set designers, their novelists, and you're just getting 731 00:37:08,844 --> 00:37:11,924 Speaker 1: this glimpse into kind of like the upper crust of 732 00:37:11,964 --> 00:37:13,764 Speaker 1: New York and how they're raising their kids. 733 00:37:13,805 --> 00:37:15,245 Speaker 2: It's heavy. I love it, Yeah, I love it. 734 00:37:15,364 --> 00:37:17,165 Speaker 1: And then the second thing is the kids are extremely 735 00:37:17,205 --> 00:37:21,364 Speaker 1: precocious and well spoken because their parents are again set 736 00:37:21,404 --> 00:37:23,604 Speaker 1: design as a novelist in the upper crust of New York, 737 00:37:23,645 --> 00:37:27,325 Speaker 1: so they add in these actually very witty interjections to 738 00:37:27,404 --> 00:37:29,884 Speaker 1: the stories. And then the third thing that's great about 739 00:37:29,924 --> 00:37:32,044 Speaker 1: it is that the grim fairy tales are just the 740 00:37:32,084 --> 00:37:32,844 Speaker 1: best stories. 741 00:37:32,884 --> 00:37:35,325 Speaker 2: It's like canceling Gretelin styf Yeah, right, Like it's all 742 00:37:35,404 --> 00:37:37,685 Speaker 2: the really disturbing ones that I loved. 743 00:37:37,844 --> 00:37:40,484 Speaker 1: Really disturbing. And so that's why it's called grim, Grimmer, Grimmest, 744 00:37:40,604 --> 00:37:44,604 Speaker 1: because each fairy tale is ranked is it grim, is 745 00:37:44,645 --> 00:37:47,484 Speaker 1: it grimmer, or is it grimmest, And so you can 746 00:37:47,564 --> 00:37:50,044 Speaker 1: kind of pick how dark you want the story to be. 747 00:37:50,765 --> 00:37:52,964 Speaker 1: They're not sugar coated, they're not done down. In fact, 748 00:37:53,044 --> 00:37:55,364 Speaker 1: some of the stories most of the stories are quite violent. 749 00:37:55,685 --> 00:37:59,245 Speaker 1: Love that, but in a kind of kid's storybook somehow 750 00:37:59,325 --> 00:38:00,525 Speaker 1: age appropriate way. 751 00:38:00,765 --> 00:38:02,444 Speaker 2: How long are the episodes. 752 00:38:02,125 --> 00:38:05,564 Speaker 1: They range in between about twenty and fifty minutes. You 753 00:38:05,645 --> 00:38:09,325 Speaker 1: probably need to buy some episodes if you want the 754 00:38:09,364 --> 00:38:12,245 Speaker 1: whole back catalog, but there's plenty available for free on 755 00:38:12,325 --> 00:38:15,484 Speaker 1: podcast platforms to just try out. A good one to 756 00:38:15,524 --> 00:38:19,084 Speaker 1: try out versus Rumpelstiltskin, which is one of my favorites, 757 00:38:19,484 --> 00:38:22,805 Speaker 1: and Gidwitz itself. He's just a fantastic storyteller. There's a 758 00:38:22,805 --> 00:38:24,884 Speaker 1: reason why when you type his name into Google the 759 00:38:24,964 --> 00:38:29,364 Speaker 1: first result is Adam Gibbwits married, because I've definitely googled 760 00:38:29,364 --> 00:38:31,125 Speaker 1: that and you will too. 761 00:38:31,604 --> 00:38:35,204 Speaker 2: I love that. Thank you so much. That is all 762 00:38:35,245 --> 00:38:38,324 Speaker 2: we have time for on Parenting out Loud today. MoMA 763 00:38:38,364 --> 00:38:41,764 Speaker 2: Mea Studios are styled with furniture from Fenton Inventon. Visit 764 00:38:41,884 --> 00:38:52,325 Speaker 2: Ventoninventon dot com, dot au. We will see you next Saturday. Bye.