1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: You're listening to I'm Ama mea podcast. 2 00:00:09,399 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 2: I'm literally so tired of being understanding about things. No worries, 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 2: no worries, worries, literally worries. Oh no, big deal, big deal, 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 2: big deal. Always being empathetic, always being understanding. It's so exhausting. Honestly, 5 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 2: I don't want to do it anymore. 6 00:00:25,639 --> 00:00:28,679 Speaker 1: For Mama Mia, I'm your host Ashani Dante. 7 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 3: Welcome to But. 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: Are You Happy? The podcast for people who can't remember 9 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: what they had for lunch, but vividly recall the thing 10 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: that they said at a party back in twenty thirteen. 11 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 3: And I'm doctor Anastaga Hernus, a clinical psychologist passionate about 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 3: happiness and mental health. Now, do you ever feel like 13 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 3: there's only so much empathy or compassion you can give 14 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 3: before you just hit a wall? 15 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yes, it's like, am I the asshole? 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: Because I can't sit down and listen to someone with 17 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: all their negativity. 18 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 3: You're not You're not the arta that got. It's actually 19 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 3: something very real called empathy fatigue. So today we're going 20 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 3: to be talking about out why constantly being the supportive 21 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 3: one can leave you feeling mentally and emotionally drained. And 22 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 3: how to set boundaries with people in your life when 23 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 3: you feel like you need a break. 24 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: Let's get into it. 25 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 3: Okay. 26 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: So I am so glad we're talking about empathy fatigue 27 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: because to be honest, I didn't know much about it, 28 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: and when I started researching into it, I just had 29 00:01:26,960 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 1: this moment of relief because I started to think I 30 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: was becoming this colehearted bitch or something, do you know 31 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: what I mean? 32 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 3: So that's how you really feel a Shani what is. 33 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: She hiding underneath? 34 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 2: So funny? 35 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: But yeah, so like what is empathy fatigue? 36 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 3: Yeah? You know what, I'm going to like pause answering 37 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 3: that and go one step before and like, let's just 38 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 3: talk about what empathy is for a minute before we 39 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 3: kind of get into the fatigue conversation and how that 40 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 3: shows up. Let's just talk about what empathy is. Because similarly, 41 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 3: I was doing some research and I love a definition, 42 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 3: and in doing the research, I kind of I learnt 43 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 3: a lot actually around this topic of empathy because we use, 44 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 3: you know, we understand the word empathy, but what is 45 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 3: it really When we're talking about empathy, we're talking about 46 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 3: our ability to understand someone else's emotional experience. And also 47 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 3: share in the feeling of someone else's emotional experience. So 48 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 3: it's kind of got these two features to it. There's 49 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 3: that sort of rational understanding of someone's emotions and someone's pain, 50 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 3: but there's also that emotional element of being able to 51 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 3: put ourselves in someone else's shoes and in some way 52 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 3: feel what they're feeling. 53 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: It's really interesting when you say that, because I didn't 54 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: know that, Like, I kind of understood the understanding piece 55 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,399 Speaker 1: when it comes to empathy, but to know that it's 56 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: something you share as well, I was quite surprised by 57 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: that because I know, for me, I can be such 58 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: a sensitive person and a very deep EmPATH So when 59 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: I'm like holding space for someone, I feel it, and 60 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: then my issue is like I keep holding on to it, 61 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, isn't that a bad thing? 62 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 3: You know, well, it's an exhausting thing. 63 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: It's exhausting exactly. Yeah. 64 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 3: And it's interesting because these kind of different components of empathy. 65 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 3: We've got the cognitive side of it, that rational understanding, 66 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 3: but then we've also got that more effective side, so 67 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: for listeners, effective with an a meaning the emotional side. 68 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 3: And it's interesting because different people have different experiences of empathy. 69 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 3: Some people lean more towards that more cognitive empathy where 70 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 3: we have more of a rational understanding of other people's experiences, 71 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 3: and other people lean more into the affective empathy, where 72 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 3: they feel the feelings, they take on the feelings. If 73 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 3: someone else is sad and they sit with them, they 74 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 3: walk away and feel sad at the end of it 75 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 3: as well, because they've absorbed that emotional experience that someone 76 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 3: else has. 77 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: H That makes a lot more sense because I've definitely 78 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: been in conversations where I'm like noticing some people can 79 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: feel me deeply if I'm sharing some but then I 80 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: can tell when someone's a little bit in their head 81 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: about it. And again, it's no right or wrong right, 82 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: it's just people show empathy in different ways. 83 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, absolutely, And I think that's important to understand 84 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 3: because if we are seeking empathy from someone, we might 85 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 3: expect it in the way that we experience empathy, but 86 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 3: they might deliver it to us in the way that 87 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 3: actually shows up for them. 88 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: Yes, this is so funny as you're speaking, because it 89 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: gets me thinking about how so often you see these 90 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: things on social media and conversations where you know, my 91 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: girlfriend's talking to me and they're like, Oh, I just 92 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: wanted my partner to just listen. Like they're going into 93 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: the problem solving things like is there some correlation there, 94 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: like around in terms of their not getting the kind 95 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: of empathy they're wanting. 96 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, so what you're kind of speaking to actually this 97 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 3: sort of like problem solving bitch. Yeah, this desire to help. 98 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 3: This is where we look at the difference between empathy 99 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 3: and compassion. So empathy is the sharing, whether that's a 100 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 3: kind of cognitive sharing or whether that's an emotional sharing. 101 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 3: Compassion is slightly different. Compassion the word literally from Latin 102 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 3: means to suffer together or to suffer wee wow, which 103 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 3: is kind of confronting when you think about that. To 104 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 3: suffer together. 105 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds so different to what I thought it 106 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: would mean. 107 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, but it's also like the in the kind 108 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 3: of modern day, the way we understand compassion is to 109 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 3: understand someone's suffering and pain and have a desire to 110 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 3: do something about that. So compassion comes with this added 111 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 3: element of wanting to help, wanting to help change the 112 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 3: experience for someone, problem solve with them, etc. So we 113 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 3: could almost say like empathy is necessary for compassion to exist. 114 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, that's so good. So essentially, like compassion has 115 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: that action element, that's where the help's coming. 116 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 3: In a desire to help. So it doesn't necessarily mean 117 00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 3: we are actually do something. You know, I might see 118 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 3: videos online of people suffering overseas. I might not practically 119 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 3: feel like I can do anything, but I may have 120 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 3: a desire to wish that I could help that situation. 121 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 3: That's compassion versus empathy, which is the kind of feeling 122 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 3: of being pulled into that emotional experience and being kind 123 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 3: of pulled down into it. So different parts of that 124 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 3: experience are useful in different ways. It's actually said in 125 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 3: the literature that that affective empathy, where we feel other 126 00:06:40,280 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 3: people's feelings and really take them on, that's not necessarily 127 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 3: very helpful. A more cognitive empathy that can lead to compassion, 128 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 3: that's actually more useful for us. 129 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: So I just wanted to circle back to something you 130 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: were talking about before around the two different types of empathy. 131 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: Does that show up differently for people who have different 132 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: mental health diagnoses. 133 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 3: Yes, so we actually see based on sort of brain 134 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 3: imaging studies that different kind of parts of the brain 135 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 3: light up. So for people who are more prone towards narcissism, 136 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 3: or people who have a diagnosis of schizophrenia, for example, 137 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 3: we see that they have lower levels of that affective 138 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 3: empathy and higher levels of the more cognitive empathy. On 139 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 3: the flip side, we see that for people who have 140 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 3: conditions like autism, bipolar, borderline personality disorder, there might be 141 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 3: kind of lower levels of the more cognitive empathy, but 142 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 3: higher levels of the affective empathy. 143 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: That's really good to get an understanding of it because 144 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: it just allows us to again be empathetic and understanding 145 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: with people who do have those diagnoses. 146 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and to recognize that there are just generally individual 147 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 3: differences when it comes to the experiences of and the 148 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 3: expression of empathy. 149 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: So what's happening in the brain and body when we 150 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: are feeling things like compassion? 151 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 3: I love talking about what happens and the brain let's go, 152 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 3: let's go. Yes. So compassion has an evolutionary function for 153 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 3: the survival of the species. It's important for us to 154 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 3: have group cohesion. So if we can have compassion for 155 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 3: another person, if we have a willingness to understand experience 156 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 3: and want to help their suffering, this helps with group 157 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 3: bonding and group cohesion. The other thing we know is 158 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 3: that when we feel compassion, oxytocin is released. So oxytocin 159 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 3: is a hormone and it's kind of referred to as 160 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 3: the hormone that helps us bond with other people. So 161 00:08:42,199 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 3: if you think about giving someone a hug and you 162 00:08:45,439 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 3: get that warm and fuzzy feeling inside, that's oxytocin working 163 00:08:49,319 --> 00:08:52,719 Speaker 3: its magic, and it helps us feel connected to other people. 164 00:08:53,199 --> 00:08:57,879 Speaker 3: It actually also calms our nervous system, so when oxytocin 165 00:08:57,959 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 3: is released, we actually sort of feel calmer and more 166 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 3: present with other people. So there's a lot of real 167 00:09:02,719 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 3: positive benefits to it. If you're out there listening, give 168 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 3: someone you love a hug. 169 00:09:07,719 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: Oh that's nice, you're already getting a takeaway. There you go. 170 00:09:13,199 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 3: The other thing I'll add to it as well is 171 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 3: we know that oxytocin is activated, but also dope mean pathways. 172 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 3: So those reward pathways. It is rewarding for the brain 173 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 3: and the body for us to connect with people that 174 00:09:25,359 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 3: we enjoy spending time with. So compassion is a key 175 00:09:30,119 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 3: driver to actually help us connect and stay connected with 176 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 3: other people. 177 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 1: So I know we've kind of covered a lot of 178 00:09:37,959 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: ground around empathy and compassion and how it shows up. Yes, 179 00:09:41,839 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 1: so what is empathy fatigue? 180 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, empathy fatigue and compassion fatigue are two interesting terms, 181 00:09:49,479 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 3: sometimes used interchangeably in the research and literature. We tend 182 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,239 Speaker 3: to talk more about compassion fatigue. But if I talk 183 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 3: about empathy fatigue for a minute, right, If we talk 184 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 3: about empathy as that experience of feeling of people's feelings 185 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 3: that's going to get really tiring and exhausting after a while. 186 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 3: The other thing is empathy doesn't necessarily come with that 187 00:10:13,319 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 3: added element of the desire to help. So if we 188 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 3: just feel empathy and we don't have that added element 189 00:10:20,839 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 3: of compassion, we can feel really quite stuck and bogged 190 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 3: down in those feelings. If I'm sitting with someone who's 191 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 3: going through a process of grief and loss, for example, 192 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 3: and I feel empathy for them, I feel some of 193 00:10:35,199 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 3: their grief, I feel some of their sadness. If that's 194 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 3: all that kind of happens internally for me, I'm going 195 00:10:41,359 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 3: to feel really heavy after that interaction. So I think 196 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 3: one of the things that can protect us from feeling 197 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 3: empathy fatigue is that added element of compassion, that desire 198 00:10:53,599 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 3: to help and to do something. Now, that's not to 199 00:10:56,319 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 3: say though, that we can't also experience compassion fatigue, and 200 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 3: this is very well talked about in the literature. We 201 00:11:02,319 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 3: know that people in certain professions can be more prone 202 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 3: to compassion fatigue. So people working on the front lines, 203 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 3: people who are doctors, people who are dealing with people's 204 00:11:13,479 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 3: hardships and pain and difficulties day in day out, carers, 205 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 3: people who are in any sort of caring role, can 206 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,719 Speaker 3: be very prone to developing compassion fatigue. 207 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: I know you touched on like doctors and carers get 208 00:11:25,719 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: compassion fatigue, how do they actually get it in the 209 00:11:29,479 --> 00:11:30,279 Speaker 1: work that they're in. 210 00:11:30,599 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's by being repeatedly exposed to someone else's hardship 211 00:11:36,959 --> 00:11:39,519 Speaker 3: or struggle. That's the main way that we can get 212 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,519 Speaker 3: compassion fatigue. But it can also be for example, being 213 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 3: in environments where maybe someone is physically or verbally threatened. 214 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 3: Maybe there's an element of risk. You know, if someone's working, 215 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 3: for example, in a high security prison setting, for example, 216 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,279 Speaker 3: they may have that element of risk attached to their 217 00:11:58,319 --> 00:12:01,479 Speaker 3: work and they may feel like, over time it's hard 218 00:12:01,479 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 3: to hold compassion for the people that they're meant to 219 00:12:04,239 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 3: be looking after and protecting when they're also receiving some 220 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 3: level of risk or threat from those people as well. 221 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,719 Speaker 3: So being in some sort of dangerous environment can create 222 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 3: a sense of compassion fatigue as well. So it's not 223 00:12:17,079 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 3: just witnessing and being a part of other people's pain, 224 00:12:20,719 --> 00:12:23,639 Speaker 3: but also feeling like there may be risk for yourself 225 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 3: as well. 226 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: Wow, what about for people who aren't in helping professions, Like, 227 00:12:29,479 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: can they get compassion fatigue? 228 00:12:31,599 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 3: The everyday person who's listening to their friend repeatedly tell 229 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 3: them about the struggles that they're going through. Yes, absolutely, 230 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 3: anyone can get compassion fatigue. So there are people who 231 00:12:41,199 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 3: are more at risk, So if you are in those 232 00:12:43,199 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 3: helping professions for example, but absolutely everyday person, a parent 233 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 3: can can get compassion fatigue from you know, caring for 234 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 3: a child, or caring for an elderly parent, or caring 235 00:12:55,719 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 3: for our friend who's going through a difficult time. Anyone 236 00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,239 Speaker 3: can get compassion fatigue. 237 00:13:00,319 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: So what are the signs to look out for. 238 00:13:02,959 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a few indication of compassion fatigue that 239 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 3: you might be able to notice in yourself. If you've 240 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 3: been supporting people who are going through tough times, you 241 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,359 Speaker 3: might find that you feel a little bit more irritable. 242 00:13:15,839 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 3: You might find you feel quieter and want a little 243 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 3: bit more of your own alone time away from other people. 244 00:13:23,319 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 3: You might feel more detached or a bit of a 245 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 3: kind of numbing feeling. So when someone then does share 246 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,119 Speaker 3: about what they're going through, it feels like it's hard 247 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 3: to care. We feel kind of emotionally detached from hearing 248 00:13:36,959 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 3: that experience, and even sometimes this kind of cognitive process 249 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,359 Speaker 3: of like oh, not again, Like Oh, I don't want 250 00:13:43,359 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 3: to do this right now. I don't want to hear 251 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 3: about this right now. Like that sort of feeling and 252 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,559 Speaker 3: thought process is an indicator that you might be suffering 253 00:13:51,719 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 3: from compassion fatigue. 254 00:13:54,199 --> 00:13:57,599 Speaker 1: It's so good that we're really unpacking this and actually 255 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: getting to the root of what does this actually look like? 256 00:13:59,719 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: Because I think, first of all, it's a topic we 257 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: don't talk about, but also it just allows us to 258 00:14:04,439 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: know we're not cold hearted bitches, you know, we're just 259 00:14:07,199 --> 00:14:09,759 Speaker 1: our capacity is low, and it's around how do we 260 00:14:10,119 --> 00:14:11,359 Speaker 1: come back into ourselves? 261 00:14:11,599 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 3: And I love that you use the word capacity because 262 00:14:14,439 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 3: that's so important. We all have individual different levels of capacity. 263 00:14:18,959 --> 00:14:21,479 Speaker 3: There's so many day to day things that influence the 264 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 3: capacity that we have. You know, When I talk about capacity, 265 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 3: I'm thinking about like, how full is the bucket right 266 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 3: throughout the day? A little bit strip out of the 267 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 3: bucket if it's got a little hole on a leak 268 00:14:33,119 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 3: in it, and eventually it will run empty. But things 269 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 3: like have I eaten enough? Have I slept enough? Have 270 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 3: I had personal stresses in my life or in my day? 271 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 3: Have I just been overstimulated by the world today? All 272 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 3: these things impact how much emotional capacity we have for 273 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 3: ourselves and for other people. 274 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: No more leaky buckets, Phil, It's got to seal them up. Now, 275 00:14:58,239 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: that's my dad joke. Have to do one? Okay? On Stasia, 276 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: How do we bounce back from empathy fatigue? Is it 277 00:15:10,359 --> 00:15:11,119 Speaker 1: even possible? 278 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 3: It is possible, There is hope. 279 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: There is hope. 280 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 3: And I know we've talked about empathy fatigue and compassion fatigue. 281 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 3: And while there's sort of slight differences in the definitions 282 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: as we've talked about, I guess the remedy is the 283 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 3: same for both. I would say, so we can sort 284 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 3: of use empathy fatigue and compassion fatigue interchangeably when we're 285 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 3: talking about what to do if you're feeling that burnout, 286 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 3: that emotional burnout. There's a few things I want to 287 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 3: kind of touch on here. A real important starting point 288 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 3: is filling our own cup. We need to find and 289 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 3: figure out the ways that we replenish our own emotional system. 290 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,519 Speaker 3: When the bucket has had all the water dripped out 291 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 3: of us, we need to figure out how do we 292 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 3: kind of fill it back up again. We can't necessarily 293 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 3: stop the leak, right because as we go through the day, 294 00:16:03,239 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 3: our emotional resources, our emotional capacity will diminish. So it 295 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,119 Speaker 3: is like having a leaky bucket that we can't necessarily 296 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 3: ever fix. What we can do is fill that bucket 297 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 3: and sort of realize that water will drip out of 298 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 3: it throughout the day. 299 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: So the sticky tape won't work because. 300 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,999 Speaker 3: Want to work. It might work temporarily, but it'll get 301 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 3: wet and fall off. 302 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,999 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay in sense very practical. 303 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, for anyone who's a visual learner out there. 304 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 3: So we've got to find the ways to fill the bucket. 305 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 3: We've got to find what helps us feel like our 306 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,879 Speaker 3: emotional resources are replenished, and that'll be different for every person. 307 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 3: So if you don't know and you're listening at the moment, 308 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 3: I would say go through a process of experimenting to 309 00:16:49,479 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 3: find out what that is. It might be that you 310 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 3: replenish through spending time with people. It might be that 311 00:16:56,479 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 3: you get it by spending time alone. It might be 312 00:16:59,239 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 3: that going for a walk is really restorative for you. 313 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 3: It might be that it's listening to music, connecting with people, 314 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 3: doing some mindfulness or meditation. It could be a whole 315 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 3: range of different things. But it sometimes takes a little 316 00:17:11,639 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 3: bit of experimenting to find out what works for us. 317 00:17:14,879 --> 00:17:17,239 Speaker 3: I might take a stive in the dark a shiny 318 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 3: and say journaling might be one for you. 319 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 1: It's like you know you really well. It's like you 320 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: can see inside my soul. Yes, journaling is definitely a. 321 00:17:26,159 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 3: Go to drinking marcher. 322 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, how do you know me so well? 323 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. For anyone that's just tuning in, I'm 324 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: obsessed with March and journaling, there you go, there you go. 325 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 3: For me, it's definitely quiet time. If I know, if 326 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 3: I've had a hard day, if I've got to the 327 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 3: end of the day, it's been a hard emotional day 328 00:17:46,679 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 3: for whatever reason, whether that's a personally hard day or 329 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 3: whether it's that work has been really challenging with the 330 00:17:52,679 --> 00:17:55,959 Speaker 3: clients I've been working with. Quiet time at the end 331 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:57,999 Speaker 3: of the day is really important for me. I need 332 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 3: to be in my own space, in my own head, 333 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 3: with no one around me, no one talking to me, 334 00:18:02,639 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 3: no one asking me questions, one requiring anything that of me. 335 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 1: I love that, And it's just I'm so glad we're 336 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: getting insight into what you do, because I'm like, Okay, well, 337 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: you literally sit and listen to people all day every day, 338 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: so I'm glad you're telling us. Is there any other 339 00:18:17,879 --> 00:18:19,959 Speaker 1: things that you do or that's kind of I mean, 340 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: you sound like you've really got it nailed, like you 341 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: really know what to do. 342 00:18:23,639 --> 00:18:26,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the I know when I'm there. I know 343 00:18:26,879 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 3: when I am feeling fatigued. People around me probably know 344 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 3: it as well, because I'm a little bit less pleasant 345 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 3: to be around, but I can recognize it in myself. 346 00:18:37,639 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 3: It is a bit of a sort of empty kind 347 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 3: of feeling like I've got nothing left to give kind 348 00:18:42,399 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 3: of feeling. Definitely the quiet time. I really enjoy listening 349 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 3: to music and I really enjoy just sort of being 350 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 3: in my own head and in my own space. I 351 00:18:52,919 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 3: don't like noise, like I don't like a TV to 352 00:18:56,399 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 3: be on all sort of like sounds in the background 353 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 3: unless it's like calming music. So that's sort of what 354 00:19:00,919 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 3: works for me. But I will say, we're talking about 355 00:19:04,639 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 3: filling the cup, filling the bucket. Right on the flip 356 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 3: side of that, the other thing that helps me day 357 00:19:10,879 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 3: to day is a slightly different lens, which is when 358 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 3: I am feeling fatigued. Look, we've all got resources we 359 00:19:18,159 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 3: can sometimes pull on, right, So I like to also 360 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 3: just come back to my own value system, my own 361 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 3: kind of moral compass what's important to me. And I've 362 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 3: never regretted caring or giving. The things I do regret 363 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 3: are when maybe I haven't taken that step, when I 364 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 3: wasn't kind of thoughtful enough towards someone, when I didn't 365 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 3: send that text message to check in to see how 366 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 3: someone was going, you know, when I didn't kind of 367 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: show the love, the kindness, the compassion. So I think 368 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 3: sometimes regret can be a powerful tool to help us 369 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 3: make decisions for ourselves, because even sometimes when I am 370 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 3: feeling like there's not much left in that bucket, if 371 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 3: I think to myself, you know what, you won't regret 372 00:20:06,159 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 3: showing compassion in this moment. You might feel a little 373 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:09,999 Speaker 3: bit more tired at the end of the day, but 374 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 3: you won't regret it. That helps me find what I 375 00:20:12,879 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 3: need to find within myself. 376 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,719 Speaker 1: Okay, well, I feel like you've already touched on about 377 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: how I journal and I have my marcher. But for me, 378 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,959 Speaker 1: I find there is something so calming around just being 379 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: in my own space. And I think, yeah, like being 380 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: able to journal or just let out whatever I'm processing 381 00:20:30,919 --> 00:20:32,999 Speaker 1: because it can just be so much to hold and 382 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: it's just getting it out is just so nice. And 383 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: for me, it's definitely listening to music that gets me 384 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: in my body and just like moving my hips around, 385 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,479 Speaker 1: like just getting the energy flowing is like that's usually 386 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 1: my go to. 387 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 3: Yes, And you know what I'm thinking as well as 388 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 3: you say that, we're talking about how to manage if 389 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 3: we're feeling empathy fatigue or compassion fatigue from helping others. 390 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 3: But really, by going through this process of restoring our 391 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 3: own emotional capacity, we're really showing ourselves compassion. Yeah, by 392 00:21:06,919 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 3: tuning to our own needs and recognizing where we're at 393 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 3: and what's going to help us that is self compassion. 394 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: I really love that phrase, and it actually reminds me 395 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,239 Speaker 1: back on an episode we did earlier this year around 396 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: how you were saying, you know, we talk about, oh, 397 00:21:23,679 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: you put on your own oxygen masks first before the 398 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: other person, and you're like, oh, it's not first, it's equal, 399 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: And I just wanted to bring that back in because 400 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: it sounds like that's what this is about. It's around 401 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: how do we make sure we're equal in the dynamics 402 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: where we're holding space for other people. 403 00:21:37,399 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 3: Yes, we need to feel like we have capacity in 404 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 3: order to help and care for others. 405 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, So speaking of relationship dynamics and the space beholding 406 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: for someone else, how do we communicate clearly around what 407 00:21:50,159 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: we need whilst also you know, we don't want to 408 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: let the other person down right, Yeah? 409 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's important to be transparent about where 410 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 3: we're at. So if we are in our everyday life 411 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 3: supporting someone or trying to be good friends with someone 412 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 3: who's going through a hard time, there are going to 413 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 3: be days where we can't hold that space for them, 414 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 3: or we can't hold it in the same way we 415 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 3: did the previous day. You know, we're human, We change, 416 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 3: and so I think it's important to be transparent and 417 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 3: communicate how much capacity we do have. So if a 418 00:22:21,919 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 3: friend is starting up a conversation that we know we're 419 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 3: just not going to be able to hold right now, 420 00:22:26,879 --> 00:22:29,959 Speaker 3: being able to say to them this sounds really important. 421 00:22:30,399 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 3: It sounds like it really matters. And because it matters 422 00:22:33,399 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 3: to you, it matters to me as well. 423 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: That's nice. 424 00:22:35,879 --> 00:22:39,479 Speaker 3: However, I've had a really long day. I don't have 425 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 3: much left in the bucket. I want to be there 426 00:22:41,919 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 3: to support you, but I don't know that I can 427 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 3: in this moment. Can we revisit this conversation at a 428 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 3: later point. Is there someone else you might be able 429 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 3: to call and talk to you right now if you 430 00:22:50,919 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 3: feel like you really need support? And how about we 431 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 3: chat tomorrow. 432 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: You're so good at wording these things. 433 00:22:56,679 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 3: I might have done this before. What but it seems. 434 00:22:59,879 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: Interesting just the way you say it too, because I 435 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 1: know it can be so hard to eat and communicate 436 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,959 Speaker 1: that right because that person you're holding space for like 437 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: they are in such a sensitive space and you don't 438 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: want to hurt their feelings. But the reality is, like 439 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,239 Speaker 1: you just you have to be honest, you know, and 440 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: if anything like that's that's actually what they want deep down, 441 00:23:20,399 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: even though the reaction. We just don't know how they've 442 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: got to react right. 443 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 3: Yes, and that's why I like starting with this sounds 444 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,239 Speaker 3: really important. Yeah, it sounds important. If it's important to you, 445 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 3: it's important to me as well. So I'm recognizing that 446 00:23:32,879 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 3: I value this relationship and I care about the fact 447 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 3: that you don't feel good right now, But that doesn't 448 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,719 Speaker 3: change the fact that I also don't have capacity. It 449 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 3: can be both. Yeah, I can care and not have 450 00:23:43,639 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 3: capacity in this moment. 451 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that, And I think when I'm communicating 452 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,479 Speaker 1: something like that to my friends sometimes I'm also just 453 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: I take it that next step and I literally just 454 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 1: say what I'm thinking, being like, look, I don't want 455 00:23:55,399 --> 00:23:58,959 Speaker 1: to come across as insensitive, especially with friends where you 456 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,999 Speaker 1: think you know what they're going to say as well. 457 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: So I think that kind of helps to disarm it 458 00:24:02,879 --> 00:24:10,479 Speaker 1: all too. You've done everything on your end, Yes, YB, 459 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: hear me, Hearb. 460 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 4: I'm powving a serious Christians BERB having a crisis. 461 00:24:16,639 --> 00:24:19,479 Speaker 1: We've reached that time in that episode where we answer 462 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,239 Speaker 1: a question or dilemma from one of you, Anatasia, this 463 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: one comes from Amelia. 464 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,999 Speaker 4: I've been going through a rough patch lately. And I 465 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 4: feel like I'm constantly venting to my friends. They've been supportive, 466 00:24:32,159 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 4: but I'm starting to worry. Am I being too negative? 467 00:24:35,679 --> 00:24:35,759 Speaker 1: Like? 468 00:24:35,919 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 4: Is there a point where I just become emotionally exhausting 469 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 4: to be around? I don't want to overshare or dump 470 00:24:41,919 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 4: on people, but I also don't want to keep everything 471 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 4: bottled up. Should I wait for my friends to ask 472 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 4: how I'm doing? Or is it okay to just bring 473 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 4: it up when I need to. I guess I'm trying 474 00:24:51,399 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 4: to find the line between being open and being too much. 475 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 1: This is so relatable. I'm so glad we got this dilemma. 476 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 3: The feeling of being too much. This is something I 477 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,959 Speaker 3: hear a lot. Yeah, I love Amelia that you are 478 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 3: asking this question because it shows that you're being mindful 479 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 3: about how you and your experiences might impact other people. 480 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 3: So big tick for self reflection right there. I want 481 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 3: to say that I guess it sounds like you're looking 482 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,479 Speaker 3: for an answer as to how do I navigate this 483 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 3: and what to do? And maybe there's no one size 484 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 3: fits all here. I would say the best approach could be, 485 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,799 Speaker 3: again to be transparent and to preface what you want 486 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 3: to talk about with your friends. So this might sound 487 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 3: something like having a conversation with your friends and saying, 488 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 3: I'm going through this really stressful period at work right now. 489 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 3: Can I talk to you about it and just see 490 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 3: what they say, and if you want them, if you 491 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 3: know what you want, if you want them to listen, 492 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 3: ask them. I just really need someone to hear me 493 00:25:58,879 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 3: out and just hear my side of the story and 494 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,479 Speaker 3: just listen to me. I just feel like I need 495 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 3: to be seen and need to be heard. Or if 496 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 3: you're looking for possible solutions to the problem, ask for 497 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 3: that as well. I'm having this trouble at work right 498 00:26:11,679 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 3: now and I'm not sure what to do about it. 499 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 3: I'm not sure how to navigate the situation. I'm not 500 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 3: sure if I should have a conversation with my boss 501 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 3: or what I should do. If I tell you, can 502 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 3: you try and help me out and let me know 503 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 3: what you think. There's something really valuable about being transparent 504 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 3: with someone. If I share with you, Ashani that I'm 505 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 3: going through a hard time, can I talk to you 506 00:26:31,879 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 3: about it and you say yes, you're agreeing to participate 507 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 3: in this conversation, so it's not me then dumping on 508 00:26:37,919 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 3: you without your consent. Or your permission because you've agreed 509 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 3: to participate in it. If your friend can't be there 510 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 3: for you, Amelia, hopefully they're able to say, ooh, look, 511 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 3: it sounds like a really tough time. I'm actually going 512 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 3: through work stress at the moment myself, so I don't 513 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 3: know that I can hear even more about work. I 514 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 3: might not be the best person to help you right now, 515 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 3: and that's okay too. But if we can have open, 516 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 3: transparent conversations where we can preface what we're about to 517 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 3: talk about with some one, I think everyone feels more 518 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 3: comfortable and confident knowing the conversation they're about to go into. 519 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: I really like that that's the opening to a conversation 520 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: like that, because I think so often we can overthink 521 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 1: being like, oh, I'm going to come across as a 522 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: negative nancy if I say all this stuff, but you're 523 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: asking straight up being like, oh, can we have this conversation? 524 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: And then if that other person says yes, but they 525 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: actually met no, that's actually on them Yes. Do you 526 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like, this is where responsibility comes 527 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 1: into a conversation. 528 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:40,479 Speaker 3: Yes, well yes, And to maintain the reciprocity in the 529 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 3: relationship ensure that there are times where you are also 530 00:27:44,639 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 3: opening space for your friends, when you're feeling like you 531 00:27:47,919 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 3: have more capacity, more emotional capacity, be there for your friends. 532 00:27:51,639 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 3: Is there anything you want to talk through? Is there 533 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 3: anything I can help you with at the moment? Is 534 00:27:54,639 --> 00:27:56,479 Speaker 3: there anything that's going on in your world that I 535 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,999 Speaker 3: don't know about that we can chat about. Open that 536 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 3: space for them in return? 537 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:01,479 Speaker 1: I love that. 538 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,959 Speaker 3: And just one last thing I'll say on this is, Amelia, 539 00:28:05,159 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 3: if you feel like you are really needing someone to 540 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,719 Speaker 3: talk to quite frequently and regularly, and like you are 541 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 3: leaning on your friends a lot, it might be worth 542 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 3: considering if some more professional support, like seeing a therapist 543 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 3: could be a good option for you. If you do 544 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 3: want to talk through some of these challenging situations with 545 00:28:22,399 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 3: someone and get some guidance around how to handle them 546 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 3: without feeling like you're burdening your friends. 547 00:28:28,399 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: You got this, Amelia, Anastasia. Can you tell us the 548 00:28:32,679 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: main takeaways from today's episode? 549 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 3: Yes, I can. First of all, empathy allows us to 550 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 3: understand and feel the emotional experiences of others, while compassion 551 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 3: comes with an added desire to relieve someone's pain. Second, 552 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 3: we can suffer from both empathy fatigue and compassion fatigue, 553 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 3: particularly if we're in roles where we take on other 554 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 3: people's hardships and finally reconnect with your own core values 555 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 3: to help you be present for others while also filling 556 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 3: your own cup. 557 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: If you have a burning question for us, there are 558 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: a few ways to get in contact with us. Links 559 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: are in the show notes. 560 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 3: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't 561 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 3: a diagnostic tool. The advice and ideas we present here 562 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,519 Speaker 3: should always take into account your personal medical history. 563 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,959 Speaker 1: Next week's episode, we're going to be talking all about 564 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: how cults can manipulate our sense of identity, purpose, and belonging. 565 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: Stay tuned next week. 566 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 3: The senior producer of But Are You Happy is Charlie. 567 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,719 Speaker 1: Blackman, Executive producer is Naima Brown, and social producer is 568 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: Jemma Donaho. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok 569 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: search at but Are You Happy? Pod? 570 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 3: Sound design and editing by Tina Mattilov. 571 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: I'm a Shani Dante. 572 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 3: And I'm doctor Anastagia Heronus. The names and stories of 573 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 3: people discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. 574 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 3: If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you. 575 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 3: We have links for more resources in the show notes 576 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 3: around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach 577 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 3: out to organizes like Lifeline or Beyond Blue if you're 578 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 3: wanting more immediate support. 579 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next time. 580 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 3: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 581 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 3: waters that this podcast is recorded on