WEBVTT - UPDATE: The Idaho Four Killer Wants To Withdraw His Guilty Plea 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:04.880 Hi. I'm Jemma Bath, host of True Crime Conversations, and 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:06.720 I'm dropping in your ears with an update on a 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:11.520 case we covered almost a year ago, exactly the Idaho Four, 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:15.080 the murders of four young college students in their sharehouse 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:21.120 in November twenty twenty two. Kaylee Gonzalvez, Madison Mogan, Xanakernodle, 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:25.520 and her boyfriend Ethan Chapin were stabbed multiple times and 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:29.080 found in two separate bedrooms of their three story rental. 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:33.600 Two other roommates, Styllan Mortensen and Bethany Funk, were home 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:37.760 during the attacks and left unharmed. The killings set off 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:42.280 a nationwide manhunt, including an elaborate effort to track a 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:47.240 white sedan spotted on CCTV repeatedly driving past the house. 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:52.400 Seven weeks later, Brian Coburger, a criminal justice graduate at 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:57.080 the nearby Washington State University, was arrested and charged. He 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:00.000 took a plea deal and was given four life sentences 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.880 without the possibility of parole. If he'd gone to trial, 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:07.720 the death penalty would have been on the table. Now 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:10.240 he's back in our headlines. He's trying to get his 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:15.880 case revisited. We've invited Vicky Ward, author of The Idaho Four, 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:20.039 an American tragedy, back on the show to explain exactly 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:24.160 what's happening. VICKI, thanks for coming back on. We last 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.640 spoke to you in August twenty twenty five. So around 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.679 the time of the sentencing of Brian Coburger, did you 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:34.280 think that that was case closed? Are you surprised to 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.160 see he is pursuing another legal avenue. 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:38.480 I'm not really. 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.920 I mean I think that you know, it's funny timing 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:45.360 doing this, right, because we have just put out the 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.760 paperback version of The Idaho Four, in which there is 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:53.600 a whole new ending which I wrote that really covers 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:58.080 the events of last summer after Brian Coburger quite suddenly 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:04.800 made that gil plea, and the extra section at the 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:10.600 end talks about how the four victims' families were very 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:17.840 divided about sort of the prosecution's rush, as some of 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:18.640 them saw it. 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:19.400 To. 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:26.360 Accept that plea, because the Gonzalves family, for one, really 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:30.480 wanted Brian Coburger to stand there in a court of 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:34.519 law and explain to the world what he'd done and 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:39.359 most of all why, and they felt that the guilty 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:45.720 plea really robbed them of answers, and that they were 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:50.359 then now left with this appalling tragedy, the loss of 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:55.160 Kaylee Gonzalves, and really not understanding why she'd been taken 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:57.960 from them, and not really having any closure as to 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:01.680 what the last few minutes of life were like. 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:03.600 I also. 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.560 Think, you know, it's important to remember that part of 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:09.480 their objections weren't. 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:09.840 Just about that. 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.280 They were about the very fact that they were afraid 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:21.920 that Coburger would try to pervert the sentence, that he 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:27.160 would find some way to try to appeal, that he 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:33.000 would from jail teach other people inside the prison sort 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:37.600 of tell them what he'd done, kind of mentor other criminals, 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:41.240 if you will, That he would try to capitalize on 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.400 the infamy of this case. I mean, it was a 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:48.600 hugely famous case in the US, and that he would 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.680 perhaps try to sell his story for money. He'd sit 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.600 down with one of his former prosecutors and sorry, one 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:57.280 of his former profecers, it's time. 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:02.400 It's late here in New York. And so they they 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:04.120 were really. 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.600 Worried that this was you know, that what happened was 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.240 not closure, It was not closure for them, and that 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:16.000 and that somehow he would try to control the narrative. 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.960 And so, you know, I talk about how in the 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:30.160 book when his sentencing came and the Gonzalves family showed up, 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.560 not every family showed up for that that the Chapin family, 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.440 the family of Ethan Chapin chose, you know. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:36.880 They didn't. 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:42.160 They attended court for when they heard Brian Coburger say guilty, 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:44.719 But as far as they were concerned, that was the 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:48.000 end of it. They you know, their their view was 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.840 that they wanted to cope with all of this by 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:56.559 focusing on the living, by focusing on Ethan's triplet brother 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.719 and sister, Maisie and Hunter. But the Gonzalves family wanted 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:05.960 to go to the sentencing and they wanted to face Coburger, 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:10.520 which was kind of actually directly against the court protocol. 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:15.040 They wanted to talk to him and it was their way, 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.600 and they wanted to tell him how they felt, in 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.640 particular Olivia gones out as Katie's older sister, and that 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:26.040 was their way of taking back control of the narrative 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:27.120 from him. 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.200 They had a really frustrating. 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:33.440 Three years in which they felt the prosecutors hadn't shared 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:38.600 everything that they knew in order to protect the investigation 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:43.400 and to protect sort of the trial, you know, because 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.560 the last thing you want in a case like this 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.240 is for there to be any reason for someone who 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:54.680 goes to trial to appeal. And so the prosecutor really 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:59.440 hadn't shared an awful lot of what happened with the victims' families, 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:06.239 and as a result, I think they felt very much 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.480 a loss of control. I mean, I was quite horrified. 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.839 As a journalist who never really covered a true crime before, 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:19.839 I was stunned to learn actually how little agency murder 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:21.400 victims families. 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:22.320 Have in the US. 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:24.279 It's horrible. It happens here too. 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:26.359 Yeah, it's a flaw in the system. 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:32.000 And so they, you know, so they they and they 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.000 were worried that by not having this trial, by accepting 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:41.000 Coburger's guilty plea, that they were still giving him control 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.400 of the narrative in some way. So they, you know, 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:50.000 that's why. I mean, Olivia Gonzalvez is her quote unquote 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:54.440 victim impact statement was one of the most powerful, stunning 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:58.919 things I've ever seen. And in the book This New Ending, 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:03.400 we you know, take you into her thought processes and 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:07.400 her nerves and all the decisions that went into to 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:11.120 making that and delivering it. But there was always this 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:14.880 fear that Coburger would put a stunt like the one 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.520 he's just pulled to try to take back the control 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:20.920 of the narrative. 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:24.160 In terms of the options available to him. Though, because 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:28.000 he took a plea deal, is it that he couldn't 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:31.000 do a normal appeal And that's why he's gone for this. 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.760 I believe it's called a called a post conviction relief. 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:36.400 Yeah, that's exactly why. I mean. 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.320 I spoke to Steve Gonzalbas and I spoke to James Fry, 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.520 the former police chief involved. Neither of them were surprised 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:46.240 that this has happened. But yeah, it is important that 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:50.960 there is this distinction. He can't appeal, but he can 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:57.200 claim that he didn't have a proper defense. You know, 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:00.080 that is a legitimate you know, he can do that. 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:04.680 Having said all of that, I mean, I believe that 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:10.720 and Taylor, his public defender, spent about five million dollars 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:15.000 of US taxpayer money on Brian Coburger's defense. It was 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:20.480 considerably more than the prosecution team spent. And so, I mean, 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:26.040 the general expectation here is that a judge will just 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:30.280 knock this down straight away. And you know that Brian 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.199 Coburger has you know, doesn't like being in prison. He's 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.000 a very anti social person as we know. I mean, 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.280 he's a you know, strange, strange guy. I'm sure he 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:43.400 doesn't like the scenery. But as James Fry, former police chief, 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:44.880 said to me, well, you know, he should have thought 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.560 about that before he went out and killed four people 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:48.439 in the middle of the night. 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:55.120 Yeah, he's used some pretty strong language. You know that 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:59.840 he was convinced to falsely confess he received ineffective counsel. 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.400 It has already been two weeks at the time we're talking. 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:04.880 So do you think the chances of it just being 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:08.280 thrown out are getting further and further away, that this 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:10.800 actually will go through the courts again? And what would 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:11.800 that look like. 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:15.360 If this were to go through the courts again? I 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:20.600 think the loss of trust and faith in the US 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:22.880 justice system by the American public would be at an 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.240 all time high. It would be astonishing. I would be 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:31.720 absolutely shocked. I'm not shocked by the way that Brian 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:36.920 Coberger is articulate and you know and smart. 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.400 I mean, we know this about him. 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:43.920 This is a guy who came from abject poverty, overcame 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:47.760 a heroin addiction to wind up in a criminology PhD 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.960 program in a really good school. I mean, the guy 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:57.480 is very smart, so that doesn't surprise me. And I'm 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.120 not shocked that it's taken two weeks because again, and 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:08.280 you know, the legal system had you know, has rolls carefully. 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.160 You know, if they're too quick to bat this down, 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.400 that could open yet another door. You know, I'm in 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.200 the middle of writing a new book which about there's 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:23.720 another huge case going on here, Luigi Mangoni, who allegedly 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:28.079 murdered the CEO of United Health Group, their healthcare rather 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:28.880 Brian Thompson. 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.040 There's a lot going on in that trial. And the 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:32.520 moral that. 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.720 I covered these stories, you know, you learn that for 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:41.720 all its flaws, there is a careful method to the 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:46.200 way that the US justice system rolls, and you have 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:50.960 to be super careful to protect that process or that 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:52.760 would hand the advantage. 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:53.600 To someone like Brian Coburger. 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:55.560 Frankly, they've got to take their time and look at 0:10:55.559 --> 0:11:01.120 what he's saying and otherwise otherwise it you know, actually 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.360 that that could that could be to his advantage. But 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:09.080 I would be shocked if a judge doesn't just say sorry, no, 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:13.120 and when you know the idea that he wasn't he 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:19.439 didn't understand when he was asked again and again and 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:21.920 again in that courtroom. 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:22.920 By the judge. 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:28.720 You know, have you been coerced or told to say 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.040 that you've done this? Are you making that? Are you 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:35.120 saying guilty of your own free volition? I mean, this 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.960 is precisely why the judge goes through all of this 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.200 in open court. In Coburger's case, it was televised to 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:47.280 the country. I remember watching it. I was on a plane, 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:51.520 And you know that's exactly why, so that he can't 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:53.960 come up out a year later and come up with 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:55.840 this furious claim. 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.240 Well, as you mentioned, he's a criminology student. Yeah, so 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:00.559 he knows this stuff. 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:02.040 In and out right. 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:04.800 If it was to go through the courts, obviously we're 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.640 hoping that doesn't happen. But doesn't that open him up 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.160 again to the death penalty? 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:14.479 Yeah, actually, which I guess. 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:17.600 Would please some of the families who don't think justice 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:21.240 was had here. But you know, we'd have to go 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:22.280 through all of this again. 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:23.160 Right. 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:25.079 Well, look, I mean. 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.000 The last I spose I spoke to Steve Gonzalves last 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:36.079 week and he was not spiraling. He was not going 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:37.040 where you. 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:37.760 Are right now? 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:38.079 Right? 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.520 Okay? He you know, what he said. 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:45.440 To me is that, you know, he takes no pleasure 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:50.920 in being right. In other words, he warned some of 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:54.240 the other families. You know, I mean, Kaylee Gonzalvez was 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:58.240 best friends with Maddie Morgan, and I think at the. 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.400 Time, ADDIE's parents. 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.920 Had wanted to take the plea deal, and Steve had 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:09.960 voiced his concerns and they but they you know, you know, 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.760 they had sort of gone along with it. So had 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:19.640 Xana's parents, the Kernodles, and and so when they heard 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.800 the news of you know, Brian's interview quote unquote with 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:29.000 the New York Times, they were very upset and sort 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:31.240 of said to Steve Gonzabaz, we should have listened to you. 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:37.079 And he took no pleasure in that scenario at all. 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.400 But I also think he's he's not sitting there thinking, well, 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:43.640 now we may get the trial that I wanted a 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.000 year ago. I don't think that's not where he is, 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.679 or it wasn't when we last spoke. He was like, 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:51.080 this is this is ridiculous. This is what I was 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:55.000 afraid of. But he did believe that a judge would 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:55.640 knock it down. 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.720 Why do you think Coburger is doing this now? It's 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.479 very interesting timing because we've just had a Netflix documentary 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:07.319 come out, you know that's very based on the victims 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.280 and the families, as it should be. He is a 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:13.439 kind of subplot. Am I being a bit too conspiratorial here? 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:13.840 Is that? 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:17.360 Could it be related to the attention the families are getting? 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:19.960 You know, this is a guy, you know, based on 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:23.200 my reporting and what I say in the Idaho for 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:29.600 he's a narcissist, right, He's a He's an arrogant narcissist 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:35.360 who almost got away with this, right. I mean they 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:39.080 never found the murder weapon. I mean that you know that, 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:44.000 you know, if were it not for technological advances and 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.560 the fact that now you know the use of genealogical 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.760 websites in the very clever way they could they could 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:54.560 take that speck of DNA on the knife sheath that 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.360 he met, you know, his one mistake that he left behind, 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.560 and then go and very carefully put together family trees 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.440 from you know, people like you and me who do 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:09.800 ancestry and me or you know those dnaes and you 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:10.640 know the way they. 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:11.680 Finally got him. 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:14.160 You know, if this crime had happened ten years ago, 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.440 they wouldn't have been able to do that, most likely. 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:17.800 But no, this is a guy. 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:24.240 This guy is a loner who spent his life, you know, 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:30.080 in his parents' basement in Pennsylvania. You know, he didn't 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:34.160 have friends, he didn't have suddenly didn't have girlfriends, and 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:40.080 suddenly he gets all this attention, and then you've got 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.480 to imagine, and he gets all this attention, and then 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:43.320 now it's been. 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.880 A year that he's been in a jail, he's you. 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.640 Know, we know he's vegan, doesn't like the you know, 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.760 they can't be there can't be much about the setting 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:57.600 that he's in that he is happy about. And so yeah, 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:00.120 I'm not at all surprised. I mean, I'm sure I 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:04.239 hate to say this because it's not helpful for the victims, 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:08.040 for the victims' families, but it probably isn't the last 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:09.080 we've heard from him. 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:16.600 Great. I do want to remind listeners that the evidence 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:18.920 against him was pretty damning. You've just mentioned the DNA 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.160 he was spotted in the like, they traced the car 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.640 that was circling the area to him, and they traced 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.920 the phone that he was using. So it wasn't like 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:31.680 it was just one piece of evidence, was there. 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.160 It was exactly it was, it was, it was all, 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.280 it was all three it was. It was the trifactor, 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:40.520 and the DNA was the most pivotal bit because once 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.560 they got the DNA match, then they could go back 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:46.600 and look at the video footage and find the see 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:49.400 the car clearly for the first time, because remember he 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:54.360 changed the license plates, but they could then clearly see that, 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.280 and then they could go to the DMV and then 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:01.680 see that he had changed the license plates. And yes, 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:06.560 you're right, the phone, the cell phone pings. But at 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.959 the same time, if you didn't have the DNA, you know, 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.919 a decent lawyer could probably have found holes with the 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.040 other two things, because there was you know, his car 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:19.000 was immaculate and clean. There was and you know, they 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:24.159 never found any clothes with blood on them. You know, 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.040 they never found the murder weapons, so they were you know, 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.919 you know he you know, you could tell that this 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:37.520 was a guy who had studied how to commit murder. 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:40.280 And the big elephant in the room has always been 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.000 the motive, hasn't it. Do you a year on have 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.320 a clear understanding of what you think the motive was, 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:47.200 or is it still confusing? 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:47.960 No? 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.120 I mean I feel like, you know, what I wrote 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:56.080 in the book still really is the best, is the closest, 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:58.600 and I still, as far as I know, it's what 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.520 the families, the friends of the victims all still believed 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:04.800 that everything points to the fact that he was targeting 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:11.320 Maddie Morgan and tragically, you know, tragically, not only was 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:16.600 she at home, you know, in bed, but there, you know, 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.680 unexpectedly was Kaylee visiting for the weekend. 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:22.240 Kaylee had already left. 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:26.320 The house and moved out, and you know, clearly Xanna 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:32.560 was awake on the floor below and moving around and 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.679 heard something, which is why when he came down the 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:39.879 stairs he got into a tussle. I mean, Xana, we know, 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:47.320 fought back really bravely, and poor Ethan was lying in 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:52.879 the bed, he was asleep behind her, and you know, 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:57.120 so it's just a horrendous case of sort of being 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:00.880 in the wrong place at the wrong time. And then 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:04.520 you know, as we know, Dylan was one floor down 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:10.119 from all that, but she, you know, she was able 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:15.120 to lock her door, and you know, which is why 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.920 one assumes he moved on past her. 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.000 Obviously, we've got to wait to see what the judge says. 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:25.840 You've mentioned your conversations with Steve. Have you Have you 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:28.280 managed to talk to any of the other families about 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:29.359 how they're feeling right now? 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:34.400 Do you know? I haven't, and partly actually out of respect. 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:38.600 I mean, I got to know Stacy Chapin very very well, 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:44.080 and I have to believe that she's rolling her eyes, 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:46.440 and you know, she's. 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:47.359 An extraordinary woman. 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:49.000 I mean, you know, one of the other things I 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:53.879 really learned when reporting this book was that when something 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:58.320 like this happens to you, to someone close to you, 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:02.080 we all react in very very different ways, and there's. 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.240 No right and no wrong. 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:11.520 And so the Gonzalves family, I think, really felt that 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:13.000 they were going to fight. 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:15.600 They were going to fight. They weren't going to take. 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:21.400 The prosecutors kind of not telling them all the things 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:22.080 they wanted to know. 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:22.800 They were going to. 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:26.480 Pursue get answers because they felt that that's what Kaylee 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:27.680 would have wanted them to do. 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:30.359 Stacy Chapin is. 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:36.600 A former school principal, and her view was that she 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:40.520 could do nothing to bring Ethan back, and that she 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:45.879 needed that his brother and sister and his close close 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:50.000 friends Emily Allen and Hunter Johnson, the young couple who 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:54.440 found went into that house on that awful morning and found. 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:57.399 I mean, you can't imagine the. 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:01.000 Trauma of young adults to think how that will be 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:02.040 shaping their lives. 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:03.480 And so stay. 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:06.520 Stacey Jabins sort of took the view that her job 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:08.080 was to protect the living. 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:12.440 Was that you know that you that the. 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:17.160 You know that that was just her view, and she 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:21.399 she has been extraordinary in that regard, and I know that, 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:25.959 you know, I didn't want to actually, you know, it's 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:29.359 funny being a journalist in this situation. I don't want 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:35.399 to compound people's suffering. And I knew I know Stacy 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:39.240 Chaffin well enough to know to know what she thinks. 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:41.680 And it's the last thing she needs as a phone 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:43.120 call from me saying how are you feeling? 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:44.639 Well? How are you feeling? 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:44.840 Then? 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:47.960 Are you going to be watching through one eye open? 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:53.520 One eye open? You know I very much Stay. I 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:56.679 mean this is going to sound a strange thing. This 0:21:56.840 --> 0:21:57.280 was a. 0:21:57.280 --> 0:22:03.400 Terrible story and a terrible tragedy, and reporting it was 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:11.560 difficult and obviously incredibly sad, but at the same time, 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:16.879 I saw the best of humanity and that was a 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:25.800 really heartwarming thing to see. And the bond with the 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:29.440 Chapins and the bond with the gonzalvaz Is that I formed, 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:36.560 and the bond with Emily and Hunter and some of 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:40.600 the four victims friends was very special. And so I 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:45.280 really enjoy the positives that have come out of this 0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:49.119 as strangers that may sound. Hunter Johnson and Emily alone 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:55.720 recently got married and that was a truly wonderful thing 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:56.960 to see on Instagram. 0:22:57.200 --> 0:22:58.800 I sent them a note. 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:01.359 I was very proud of them because to have come 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:03.440 through everything they came through. 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:03.800 I mean, this. 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:10.159 Event completely derailed their lives as you would imagine. I mean, 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:14.840 imagine being a senior in college and this going down. 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:15.840 I mean, the last thing in. 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:18.320 The world you're going to be able to do is 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:21.520 focus on your studies. And on top of all of this, 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:24.200 you know, one of the themes in the book is 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:31.879 how difficult the world of social media now is for 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:34.800 people around a crime like this, because all the true 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:37.560 crime sluths have theories, and all the tribe true crime 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:43.240 slus start point fingers at innocent people, and so Emily 0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:45.760 and Hunter, yeah, I got singled out and got trolled, 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:51.120 and that their lives were utterly so and they were afraid. 0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:54.880 So they were dealing with the awful trauma of being 0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:59.000 in that house the morning after the murders. They were 0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:03.399 dealing with the fear that whoever did this might be 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:06.600 coming for them, and then they were dealing with the 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:10.200 trolling of all these people online who thought they were 0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:10.879 the murderer. 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:14.280 And imagine what that would do to you. 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:17.280 So the positive for this was that I got to 0:24:17.280 --> 0:24:24.760 see some remarkable people who went through what I hope 0:24:24.800 --> 0:24:28.800 is the only nightmare, real nightmare that they have to 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:33.080 experience in their lives. And I got to see the 0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:36.080