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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hey friends, I just

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Speaker 2: wanted to let you know before we start today that

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Speaker 2: we aren't discussing recent events in Gaza and it could

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Speaker 2: be a difficult listen, so please take care. I'm Claire Murphy.

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Speaker 2: This is Mumma MIA's daily news podcast, The Quickie. The

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Speaker 2: Israeli military campaign in the southern Gaza city of Rapha

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Speaker 2: is now nearly three weeks old, and the forever shrinking

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Speaker 2: territory that can hold those who are fleeing the violence

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Speaker 2: just got even smaller.

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Speaker 1: There's increased pressure on the Israeli Prime Minister tonight after

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Speaker 1: rare strikes in southern Gaza killed dozens of display civilians.

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Speaker 3: Israel has confirmed the strike, saying it targeted a Hamas

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Speaker 3: compound where militants were located.

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Speaker 4: This eyewitness says families were killed by Israeli missiles as

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Speaker 4: they baked bread. Today we're looking into where Palestinians are

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Speaker 4: suppose to go now now that their last.

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Speaker 2: Refuge is a refuge no more. But first, here's the

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Speaker 2: letters from the Cookie newsroom. Thursday May thirty, a group

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Speaker 2: of hackers is allegedly trying to sell data stolen from Ticketmaster,

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Speaker 2: with potentially many Australians caught up in the breach. Online

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Speaker 2: posts claiming to be from Shiny Hunters are advertising the

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Speaker 2: sale of five hundred and sixty million users stolen info,

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Speaker 2: claiming the group hacked the details of Ticketmaster's customers, the

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Speaker 2: ticketing site owned by Live Nation, asking for seven hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty thousand dollars for one point three terabytes of data.

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Speaker 2: Cybersecurity industry publication cyber Daily has reported that a sample

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Speaker 2: of the data was posted along with the sale notice

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Speaker 2: that included credit card details, but it's not yet known

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Speaker 2: if Australian customers have been exposed. Israeli authorities say the

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Speaker 2: war in Gaza is likely to last at least another

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Speaker 2: seven months, as their tanks moved into the heart of Rafa,

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Speaker 2: despite calls from the International Court of just to end

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Speaker 2: its attacks on the city. The Palestinian Health Minister has

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Speaker 2: urged the US to pressure Israel into opening the Rafa

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Speaker 2: crossing to allow aid in for those desperately trying to survive,

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Speaker 2: saying patients in the besieged area were dying from lack

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Speaker 2: of medical treatment. The Israeli military controls three quarters of

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Speaker 2: the buffer zone along the border with Egypt, with plans

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Speaker 2: to control it all. Israel's National security adviser saying it's

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Speaker 2: to prevent Hamas from smuggling weapons in the UNRWA reported

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Speaker 2: yesterday that around one million Palestinians who've taken shelter in

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Speaker 2: Rafa are now fleeing the area after Israeli orders to evacuate.

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Speaker 2: The preliminary findings into what caused a Singapore airline's flight

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Speaker 2: to suddenly drop, injuring dozens of passengers and leading to

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Speaker 2: the death of a seventy three year old man showed

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Speaker 2: a rapid change in gravitational force. Flight Sq three two

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Speaker 2: one was en route from London to Singapore on May

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Speaker 2: twenty one when it hit severe turbulence. The preliminary report

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Speaker 2: from the Transports Safety in vas Investigation Bureau showing the

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Speaker 2: plane suffered a rapid change in gravitational force followed by

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Speaker 2: an accelerated fifty four meter altitude drop, saying this likely

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Speaker 2: resulted in the occupants who were not builted up to

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Speaker 2: become airborne. Then vertical acceleration changing from negative one point

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Speaker 2: five g to positive one point five g within four seconds,

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Speaker 2: likely resulted in the occupants who were airborne falling back down.

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Speaker 2: The plane, carrying two hundred and eleven passengers fifty six

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Speaker 2: from Australia was diverted to bang Conk after the incidents,

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Speaker 2: where many remained being treated for their injuries, including some

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Speaker 2: who required spinal surgery. Jurors are beginning their deliberation at

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump's hush money trial, sifting through weeks of evidence

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Speaker 2: and testimony to determine if he will become the first

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Speaker 2: US president convicted of a crime. Trump is accused of

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Speaker 2: falsifying business records to cover up the payments to several people,

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Speaker 2: including adult film style Stormy Daniels, allegedly paying them off

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Speaker 2: so their stories didn't come out in the lead up

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Speaker 2: to the twenty sixty presidential election. It's not known how

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Speaker 2: long the jurors will take to reach a verdict, after

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Speaker 2: having spent six weeks in a New York courtroom as

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Speaker 2: prosecutors laid out their case and his lawyers attempted to

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Speaker 2: knock it down. The verdict could impact the twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: four presidential race, in which Trump is seeking another term

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Speaker 2: In the White House polling finding that if he is

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Speaker 2: found guilty, it could cost him support amongst some independent

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Speaker 2: and Republican voters. That's the latest news headlines. Next, we

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Speaker 2: head into the streets of Rafa to find out what

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Speaker 2: will happen to those who have nowhere left to go.

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Speaker 2: Gaza's tent camp stretches for more than sixteen kilometers along

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Speaker 2: the coast. It spills into empty fields, onto the beaches,

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Speaker 2: up streets, and into empty lots. Those who live there

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Speaker 2: have dug trenches for toilets to try and contain the

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Speaker 2: biological hazards of so many people living together in unsanitary conditions.

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Speaker 2: Children dig through rubbish and search for anything they can

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Speaker 2: burn so their mothers can cook whatever little food they've

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Speaker 2: managed to secure. The supplies coming in to support them

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Speaker 2: are thin on the ground. The UN and other aid

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Speaker 2: agencies say what they can get in when they can

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Speaker 2: get it across borders or through the temporary peer. The

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Speaker 2: US setup, which has now had to be dismantled and

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Speaker 2: fixed due to rough weather causing damage, are becoming increasingly

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Speaker 2: hard to obtain. The basics are barely being covered, food,

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Speaker 2: medical supplies, and water, something that would become even more

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Speaker 2: vital on the evening of Sunday, May twenty six. That night,

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Speaker 2: families displaced by the war and Gaza were settling in

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Speaker 2: for the evening in their makeshift ten camp in the

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Speaker 2: Tel al Sultan neighborhood in the southern Ghazan city of Rufa.

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Speaker 2: These people had relocated from another May shiftingcampment in the

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Speaker 2: east of the city, where they had set up before

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Speaker 2: Israeli forces began their military campaign against Hermas in the

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Speaker 2: city itself. Um Muhammad Alatar, a Palestinian woman who was

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Speaker 2: in the camp, told reporters and Israeli airstrike hit as

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Speaker 2: they tried to settle their children.

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Speaker 5: We were praying and we were getting our children's beds

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Speaker 5: ready to sleep. There was nothing unusual, and then we

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Speaker 5: heard a very loud noise and fire erupted around us.

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Speaker 5: All the children started screaming. The sound was terrifying. We

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Speaker 5: felt like the medal was about to collapse on us

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Speaker 5: and shrapnel fell into the rooms.

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Speaker 2: Video footage from the night shows fire raging in the darkness.

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Speaker 2: Voices are yelling, panicked and scared. There's not enough water

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Speaker 2: to extinguish the flames. In the hours after the strike,

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Speaker 2: it would be revealed that more than half of the

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Speaker 2: forty five immediate deaths are women, children and the elderly,

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Speaker 2: but they expect that number to rise as victims succumb

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Speaker 2: to burns injuries. Again, hospitals are flooded with the wounded,

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Speaker 2: too many to take in locally, emergency crews faring those

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Speaker 2: who cannot be treated there Further north. The air strike

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Speaker 2: came just hours after Israel intercepted eight rockets fired by

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Speaker 2: Hamas into Israeli territory, the first to be fired in

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Speaker 2: their direction in several months. Israel still determined to exterminate Hamas,

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Speaker 2: who launched a terror attack on them back in October,

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Speaker 2: killing twelve hundred people and taking more than two hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty hostages, many of whom are still held somewhere

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Speaker 2: in Gaza. Said Sundays strike was based on precise intelligence

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Speaker 2: and had eliminated Hamas's chief of staff for the West

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Speaker 2: Bank and another official. Israeli Prime Minister Benjaminette Nyaho claims

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Speaker 2: the strike hitting the displacement camp was a tragic accident.

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Speaker 2: The response from some world leaders has been French President

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Speaker 2: Emmanuel Macron said he was outraged, saying these operations must stop.

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Speaker 2: That there are no safe areas in Rafa for Palestinian civilians.

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Speaker 2: German Foreign Minister and Elena Berbach mirrored Macron's stance, saying

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Speaker 2: international humanitarian law applies for all, which also means for

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Speaker 2: Israel's conduct in this war. Australia's own Foreign Minister, Penny

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Speaker 2: Wong condemned the attack, saying Israel's strikes have had horrific

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Speaker 2: and unacceptable consequences, calling for a ceasefire so civilians can

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Speaker 2: be protected, also calling for Harmas to release all the

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Speaker 2: remaining Israeli hostages taken in the October seven terror attack,

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Speaker 2: and for Hermas to stop using Palestinian civilians as human shields.

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Speaker 2: The International Court of Justice last Friday had ordered Israel

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Speaker 2: to halt its Rafa offensive or any other operation that

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Speaker 2: could bring the physical destruction of the Palestinians. Last Monday,

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Speaker 2: the International Criminal Court had advised that they were seeking

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Speaker 2: arrest warrants for Israeli leaders, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu,

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Speaker 2: for war crimes, including using starvation as a form of warfare,

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Speaker 2: wilful killing, and exterminational murder. They're also seeking arrest warrants

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Speaker 2: for top Hamas leaders accused of extermination, rape and other

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Speaker 2: acts of sexual violence, and for taking hostages. The US,

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Speaker 2: Israel's staunchest ally reminded Israel to protect civilians, but Biden's

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Speaker 2: government is facing increasing pressure even from within its own party,

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Speaker 2: to stop arming Israel and halt all military shipments. A

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Speaker 2: National security spokesperson commented saying, Israel has every right to

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Speaker 2: go after Hamas, but we've been clear. He said, Israel

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Speaker 2: must take every precaution possible to protect civilians, but with

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Speaker 2: every strike on Rapha, there are reports of civilian casualties.

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Speaker 2: Just forty eight hours after the deadly Sunday night strike

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Speaker 2: that devastated the displacement camp, another hit on a tent

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Speaker 2: city saw twenty one people killed, shrapnel tearing through the

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Speaker 2: thin material that erected to help give them some sense

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Speaker 2: of home.

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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, this is something and behind me. Another tint

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Speaker 1: massacre in less than forty eight hours, A bomb targeted

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Speaker 1: tent with only civilians, only women and children.

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Speaker 5: All these people were in a tent getting ready.

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Speaker 1: To have their lunch and they were bombed. People are shocked,

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Speaker 1: People cannot talk.

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Speaker 5: People found themselves gathering the remains of their beloved.

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Speaker 2: Once that's besigan Alda a filmmaker who's been posting from

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Speaker 2: the ground in Gaza, Israel denies they're responsible for the

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Speaker 2: deaths this time. So if international courts can't stop this,

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Speaker 2: if clear messaging from world leaders doesn't hold the progress

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Speaker 2: of tanks and guns through the streets of the one

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Speaker 2: place that Israel told Palestinians to flee and be safe

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Speaker 2: from the bombs, where do the people Garza go now?

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Speaker 2: Doctor Jessica Ganawa is a senior lecturer in international relations

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Speaker 2: at Flinders University. Jessica, why don't Gaza's neighbors open their

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Speaker 2: borders to these people?

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Speaker 1: So that's a complicated question that doesn't have an easy answer.

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Speaker 1: We would maybe think that, of course Egypt would be

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Speaker 1: the first one to open their borders, for example, to

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Speaker 1: allow those displaced people from Gaza to enter. But what

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Speaker 1: we often find with international politics is that state governments

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Speaker 1: are not only dealing with international issues, but they're also

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Speaker 1: dealing with domestic issues at the same time, and that's

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Speaker 1: certainly the case for PRESIDENCYC in Egypt. So the Egyptian

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Speaker 1: government is really primarily concerned about their own domestic political

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Speaker 1: and security context, and they want to make sure they

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Speaker 1: don't introduce any kind of instability into their own domestic areas,

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Speaker 1: which sounds in some ways quite harsh and a little

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Speaker 1: bit brutal when there are these people, you know, suffering

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Speaker 1: just over the border. But they're concerned that if there

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Speaker 1: is a flood of refugees into Egypt that that might

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Speaker 1: actually inflame tensions and dissatisfaction with the existing governing regime

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Speaker 1: in Egypt.

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Speaker 2: So Israel the IDEF told Palestinian people to go to

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Speaker 2: Rafa for their own safety to avoid the conflict that

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Speaker 2: was happening further north. But if they are committed to

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Speaker 2: annihilating Hamas, how can they possibly do that and also

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Speaker 2: guarantee the safety of civilians within Rafa if Hamas live

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Speaker 2: amongst them, that's right.

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Speaker 1: So this is something that is a really strong issue

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Speaker 1: when it comes to what we call asymmetric conflict, where

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Speaker 1: you have essentially one military force, so in this case,

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Speaker 1: the Israeli military that are a conventional military force trying

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Speaker 1: to fight against Hamas, who are more or less a

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Speaker 1: non state. And so what we see is that in

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Speaker 1: those cases of asymmetric conflict, it's almost impossible to carry

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Speaker 1: out a clear and systematic kind of military solution to

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Speaker 1: the conflict because, as you mentioned, whilst it might be

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Speaker 1: possible from Israel's point of view to eliminate some top

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Speaker 1: Hamas personnel or Hamas leaders, they're never going to be

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Speaker 1: able to eliminate every single person who identifies as a

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Speaker 1: Hummas fighter within Gaza. And that's because there will be

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Speaker 1: quite a thin dividing line sometimes between civilian and military

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Speaker 1: population just because it's not a conventional, organized state military force,

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Speaker 1: So some of those Hummas fighters could essentially blend back

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Speaker 1: into civilian populations. So this is a really complicated aspect

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Speaker 1: of asymmetric conflict, and it means that there usually isn't

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Speaker 1: a clear only military strategy that can be carried out

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Speaker 1: in those cases.

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Speaker 2: So if we've got all these people, and we're talking

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Speaker 2: more than a million people who are stuck essentially in

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Speaker 2: this place with nowhere else to go. Their neighbors can't

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Speaker 2: open their borders to them for fear of their own

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Speaker 2: political unrest. We've got the IDF coming in trying to

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Speaker 2: annihilate Hamas and can't guarantee their safety. What happens to

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Speaker 2: these people at the same time that AID can't get

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Speaker 2: to them. Do we just sit back and watch while

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Speaker 2: these people suffer.

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Speaker 1: So that is unfortunately a question that doesn't have a

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Speaker 1: clear answer at the moment, and it seems that until

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Speaker 1: Israel ceases the military operation and actually sort of withdraws

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Speaker 1: in some capacity from Gaza, we are unlikely to see

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Speaker 1: a turnaround in terms of the humanitarian situation in Gaza.

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Speaker 1: So we have, of course humanitarian organizations that are in Gaza,

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Speaker 1: that it's unfortunately not sufficient. And also as the fighting

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Speaker 1: continues and there is a lot of security instability in Gaza,

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Speaker 1: it's very hard to provide just that material safety for civilians.

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Speaker 2: We've seen some pretty major moves by international courts, like

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Speaker 2: the International Court of Justice ordered the IDF to stop

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Speaker 2: this military mobilization in Rufa. We've also seen potentially the

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Speaker 2: International Criminal Court seeking arrest warrants for the leaders of

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Speaker 2: both sides of this conflict, But none of this seems

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Speaker 2: to be stopping anything. Is there anything another institution can

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Speaker 2: do in order to stop what's happening right now?

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Speaker 1: Basically, in terms of the structure of international law, the

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Speaker 1: International Court of Justice and even the International Criminal Court

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Speaker 1: have very few mechanisms to actually enforce rulings that are

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Speaker 1: made the body. In terms of international governance that really

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Speaker 1: has the ability to enforce decisions is the United Nations

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Speaker 1: Security Council. So the United Nations Security Council could take

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Speaker 1: that International Court of Justice ruling and then try to

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Speaker 1: ensure that it's enforced. However, as we know, within the

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Speaker 1: United Nations Security Council, there are five countries that have

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Speaker 1: veto power, which includes of course the United States as

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Speaker 1: well as four others, and so when a decision concerns

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Speaker 1: one of those five states that has veto power, it's

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Speaker 1: very unlikely that actually an enforcement decision will be made

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Speaker 1: within the United Nations Security Council. And given the way

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Speaker 1: in which the United States has sort of tried to

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Speaker 1: navigate a line between supporting Israel and then ensuring that

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Speaker 1: you know, there is an alignment with international law, certainly

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Speaker 1: I don't see the United States within the United Nations

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Speaker 1: Security Council supporting any kind of specific enforcement decision for

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Speaker 1: that International Court of Justice ruling, which means that it's

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Speaker 1: relatively toothless.

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Speaker 2: One thing we have seen is several European countries recently

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Speaker 2: did this in recognizing a Palestinian state. There was a

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Speaker 2: Greens backed motion in Parliament this week calling for the

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Speaker 2: same thing which was voted down. But Adam Bant, the

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Speaker 2: Greens leader, said that this would have been a concrete

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Speaker 2: step towards peace. Does recognizing a Palestinian state actually go

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Speaker 2: any ways to stopping this conflict?

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that it has any kind of binding

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Speaker 1: force or specific mechanism to lead towards, for example, a ceasefire.

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Speaker 1: I mean, in order for a ceasefire to take place,

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Speaker 1: or for there to be some kind of negotiated political

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Speaker 1: solution to the conflict, both parties on the ground would

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Speaker 1: need to agree to that. So importantly, of course Israel

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Speaker 1: and then also Hamas or whoever would be representing the

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Speaker 1: Palestinian side, and other countries making statements or claims or

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Speaker 1: supporting a ceasefire is unfortunately in terms of international law,

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Speaker 1: just doesn't have a lot of weight in terms of

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Speaker 1: a mechanism that would actually lead towards a ceasefire, which

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Speaker 1: would ultimately need to be agreed by the parties involved

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Speaker 1: in the conflict.

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Speaker 2: Where's the road out of this, Jessica? Because it seems

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Speaker 2: like every time we get close to maybe some ceasefire talks,

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Speaker 2: one side agreed is the other said no, and then

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Speaker 2: vice versa. We get no progress and then things worsen

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Speaker 2: once again for Palestinian civilians. Where's the road out of this?

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Speaker 1: So, unfortunately, I don't see any clear and simple pathway

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Speaker 1: out of the current conflict. I think that, as we

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Speaker 1: often see with international conflicts, it needs to, unfortunately get

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Speaker 1: to a point where the costs for both sides are

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Speaker 1: greater than continuing with the conflict itself, and I don't

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Speaker 1: think we've quite gotten to that point. We might get

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Speaker 1: to a point where Israel is willing to withdraw from Gaza.

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Speaker 1: In large part, the Israeli government also has an interest

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Speaker 1: in trying to get back any of those hostages that

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Speaker 1: they can who are still being held in Gaza. I

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Speaker 1: think that Hamas is certainly getting close to a point

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Speaker 1: where they would be willing to agree to some kind

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Speaker 1: of ceasefire. However, it's unlikely that Israel would agree to

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Speaker 1: any kind of ceasefire agreement that left Hamas in power.

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Speaker 1: One actor who could be critical here is of course,

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Speaker 1: the United States. So whilst it's still a while away,

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Speaker 1: we're waiting to see what happens with the US presidential

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Speaker 1: elections later this year. If this conflict is still ongoing,

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Speaker 1: the United states is one actor who would sort of

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Speaker 1: have the leverage to bring to bear some kind of

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Speaker 1: pressure in order to create a shift in what's been

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Speaker 1: happening so far in the conflict.

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Speaker 2: Well, the politics rages on, the tanks keep advancing, and

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Speaker 2: it's the innocent ones who pay the biggest price. Albert

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Speaker 2: Muhammad Alatar lost his brother, his sister in law and

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Speaker 2: several other relatives after Sunday nights air strike, and he

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Speaker 2: says there's nowhere for them now.

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Speaker 3: The army is a liar. There is no security in Gaza.

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Speaker 3: There's no security, not for a child, an elderly man

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Speaker 3: or a woman. Here he my brother is with his wife,

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Speaker 3: they were married, Their children have been orphaned. What have

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Speaker 3: they done to deserve this?

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Speaker 2: Thanks for spending time with us today on the Quikie.

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Speaker 2: We'll continue to keep you updated on the situation in

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Speaker 2: Gaza as it unfolds. The Quikie is produced by me

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Speaker 2: Claire Murphy and our executive producer, Callie Rintle, with audio

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Speaker 2: production by Tom Lyon.