WEBVTT - The Australian Filmmakers Determined To Solve America’s Burger Chef Murders 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:16.302 You're listening to Amma Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges the 0:00:16.342 --> 0:00:20.182 traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was recorded 0:00:20.182 --> 0:00:25.542 on It's a Chilly Night in November nineteen seventy eight 0:00:25.662 --> 0:00:29.222 in the town of Speedway, Indianapolis, and the four teenagers 0:00:29.262 --> 0:00:32.062 on shift at the local burgerschef are starting to clean up. 0:00:35.262 --> 0:00:37.462 Hey, Mama, I was just wondering if I could stay 0:00:37.502 --> 0:00:38.262 back to help close. 0:00:38.822 --> 0:00:41.382 Danny Davis is talking to his mum Norma in the 0:00:41.382 --> 0:00:45.342 back room. He's only sixteen and state law dictates that 0:00:45.382 --> 0:00:49.302 he's only supposed to work until ten pm, but his manager, 0:00:49.382 --> 0:00:52.102 twenty year old Jane Freed, wants him to check with 0:00:52.142 --> 0:00:54.862 his parents if he can stay in extra hour or so. 0:00:54.982 --> 0:00:59.342 They agree. He joins sixteen year old Mark Flemons and 0:00:59.462 --> 0:01:02.342 seventeen year old Ruth Shelton as they go through the 0:01:02.382 --> 0:01:07.702 motions of mopping, wiping and packing away. But when their colleague, 0:01:07.782 --> 0:01:10.982 fellow teenager Brian Crane, stops by the sh shop just 0:01:11.022 --> 0:01:14.382 after midnight to pay his coworkers a visit, he notices 0:01:14.462 --> 0:01:18.382 something odd. The lights are on, the door is open, 0:01:18.942 --> 0:01:23.982 but there is no one there. Scared, he calls police. 0:01:24.342 --> 0:01:27.462 Thank you Police, emergency, but they very quickly decide it's 0:01:27.542 --> 0:01:30.462 just a case of a bunch of irresponsible youngsters walking 0:01:30.542 --> 0:01:32.582 off the job to go party for the night. It 0:01:32.662 --> 0:01:35.862 is a Friday, after all, But none of them return home, 0:01:36.662 --> 0:01:51.382 and thirty six hours later police receive a devastating call. 0:01:51.542 --> 0:01:55.302 I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations Amoma 0:01:55.382 --> 0:01:59.502 mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking 0:01:59.502 --> 0:02:02.342 to the people who know the most about them. The 0:02:02.382 --> 0:02:07.022 bodies of Danny, Jane Mark, and Druth were found two 0:02:07.102 --> 0:02:10.502 days after their final shift at Bergershev in late nineteen seven, 0:02:11.182 --> 0:02:16.222 twenty miles away in a rural field. They've been shot, stabbed, 0:02:16.582 --> 0:02:20.022 and bashed, each of their murders telling its own devastating 0:02:20.062 --> 0:02:24.822 tale of the teenager's last terrifying moments alive. They were 0:02:24.862 --> 0:02:27.982 all still wearing their orange and brown Burger chef uniforms. 0:02:28.502 --> 0:02:31.542 They were all left in the positions they died. Their 0:02:31.542 --> 0:02:34.662 deaths shocked their small, tight knit community, but from the 0:02:34.702 --> 0:02:39.062 start the police investigation was bungled, and forty years later, 0:02:39.622 --> 0:02:44.062 so many questions about that night remain. Ossies Luke Rinderman 0:02:44.182 --> 0:02:46.702 and Adam came in are the co writers and directors 0:02:46.702 --> 0:02:50.502 of a new documentary drama called The Speedway Murders, which 0:02:50.542 --> 0:02:54.422 tries to unpick and unpack the various theories in this case. 0:02:55.342 --> 0:02:59.062 They've been working on this investigation for five years, speaking 0:02:59.102 --> 0:03:03.702 to families, witnesses, friends, and law enforcement about their recollections. 0:03:04.342 --> 0:03:15.422 Both Luke and Adam join us. Now, Adam Luke, you 0:03:15.502 --> 0:03:18.422 both live in Australia. This crime happened on the other 0:03:18.462 --> 0:03:23.142 side of the world. So what drew you to revisiting 0:03:23.382 --> 0:03:24.662 this crime? We'll start with you. 0:03:24.702 --> 0:03:28.662 Adam Luke's a true crime tragic to the point where 0:03:28.702 --> 0:03:30.942 I worry about him a little bit from time to time. 0:03:31.542 --> 0:03:33.542 We had just had some interest in a script that 0:03:33.582 --> 0:03:37.302 we'd written and were kind of looking for the next 0:03:37.462 --> 0:03:41.382 thing to kind of keep the momentum going. We're big 0:03:41.422 --> 0:03:45.182 fans of the period fashion music. For people who are 0:03:45.222 --> 0:03:47.702 listening that don't know the crime that films based on 0:03:47.742 --> 0:03:50.782 took place in nineteen seventy eight, that was appealing to us. 0:03:51.302 --> 0:03:54.822 We discovered that it was unsolved, the investigation was botched, 0:03:54.902 --> 0:03:57.182 so it felt like that it hadn't sort of been 0:03:57.182 --> 0:03:59.422 given the attention that it should have. So we sort 0:03:59.422 --> 0:04:01.782 of thought, well, maybe if we do a deep dive, 0:04:01.862 --> 0:04:04.982 we can uncover some stuff. So we sort of went 0:04:05.062 --> 0:04:08.342 down this rabbit hole and never really emerged. 0:04:08.902 --> 0:04:10.662 Luke, is there a reason you didn't decid had to 0:04:10.702 --> 0:04:13.342 go down a more Australian unsolved crime. 0:04:13.542 --> 0:04:16.662 I mean, there's definitely Australian unsolved crimes that we're interested in. 0:04:16.782 --> 0:04:19.582 But you know, we were looking all over the world, 0:04:20.062 --> 0:04:22.502 and you know, there was just a certain tragedy to 0:04:22.542 --> 0:04:24.862 the fact that it wasn't solved, and you know, there 0:04:24.902 --> 0:04:27.622 was four people at the center, of young people that 0:04:28.022 --> 0:04:32.182 nothing had been done about, and you know, the families 0:04:32.262 --> 0:04:34.462 not knowing, and so yeah, it just kind of like 0:04:34.582 --> 0:04:38.422 it hit us, and as Adam said, we never really 0:04:38.422 --> 0:04:39.222 come up from it. 0:04:39.342 --> 0:04:41.662 The crime itself happened on the same weekend as the 0:04:41.742 --> 0:04:47.902 Jonestown massacre, so it had always kind of gotten short shrift. 0:04:47.982 --> 0:04:51.462 It never really got the attention that it deserved, which 0:04:51.502 --> 0:04:53.222 was another thing that sort of enticed us. 0:04:53.582 --> 0:04:55.262 Before we get more into the crime, I'd love to 0:04:55.262 --> 0:04:57.902 get a bit more background on you two. You guys 0:04:57.902 --> 0:04:59.622 have known each other for a long time, haven't you. 0:05:00.022 --> 0:05:02.662 It's true we were introduced by a mutual friend in 0:05:03.582 --> 0:05:06.982 I think nineteen eighty nine, so we've kind of been 0:05:07.262 --> 0:05:08.702 really tight ever since. 0:05:09.262 --> 0:05:12.062 What's it like working on a project this big, this 0:05:12.342 --> 0:05:15.502 in depth, this kind of gruesome with your best mete. 0:05:15.742 --> 0:05:17.062 It's a great friendship tester. 0:05:17.742 --> 0:05:20.582 It can be maddening at times. I mean we do 0:05:20.902 --> 0:05:23.582 piss each other off at times, and it is definitely 0:05:23.622 --> 0:05:26.542 a tester and you know, going over and doing you know, 0:05:26.662 --> 0:05:31.342 various trips to Indianapolis and staying very closely together, you know, 0:05:31.502 --> 0:05:35.862 does test the friendship. We never fight about anything not creative. 0:05:35.902 --> 0:05:40.062 It's always creative issues. So it's never like anything about 0:05:40.182 --> 0:05:43.182 the person. It's just you know, we're both so passionate 0:05:43.182 --> 0:05:43.662 about it. 0:05:44.222 --> 0:05:46.462 The burger chef we're talking about is in a place 0:05:46.502 --> 0:05:50.822 called Speedway in Indianapolis, Adam, what's that part of America? 0:05:51.022 --> 0:05:53.502 Like? It's Midwest, so it's sort of in the heartland. 0:05:54.102 --> 0:05:56.782 You know, most people when they go and visit America, 0:05:56.822 --> 0:05:58.982 they don't tend to go to the Midwest. They go 0:05:59.062 --> 0:06:01.022 to the coasts, you know, sort of LA or New 0:06:01.102 --> 0:06:03.262 York or you know, maybe a Chicago or something like that, 0:06:03.502 --> 0:06:06.022 which actually is just kind of on top of Indiana 0:06:06.062 --> 0:06:08.382 where this is. In a lot of ways, it's the 0:06:08.422 --> 0:06:11.742 real America. Indianapolis is kind of a small town. I 0:06:11.742 --> 0:06:15.382 think there's under a million people there, and Speedway is 0:06:15.462 --> 0:06:19.742 kind of a town within Indianapolis, a suburb within Indianapolis. 0:06:19.782 --> 0:06:25.862 I guess they're an extremely hospitable people, and you know, 0:06:25.982 --> 0:06:27.942 if you sort of venture outside the city, it's a 0:06:27.982 --> 0:06:32.862 lot of cornfields and diners and that sort of typical 0:06:33.102 --> 0:06:33.862 Middle America. 0:06:34.462 --> 0:06:38.022 You've mentioned that we're talking nineteen seventy eight, and around 0:06:38.102 --> 0:06:40.182 the time of this crime, there had actually been quite 0:06:40.222 --> 0:06:43.782 a few violent incidents. Can you set that scene for us? 0:06:44.062 --> 0:06:46.502 So Speedway is this little enclave. 0:06:46.622 --> 0:06:49.902 I guess that, by all reports was kind of a 0:06:49.982 --> 0:06:52.902 sleepy little hamlet. People didn't tend to lock their doors. 0:06:52.942 --> 0:06:55.022 It was a safe place to grow up. It was 0:06:55.022 --> 0:06:57.982 an autoparts industry, you know, it was the sort of 0:06:58.222 --> 0:07:04.182 economic driver. Something happened in the late seventies. This kind 0:07:04.182 --> 0:07:07.302 of hell mouth opens in Speedway, and all of a sudden, 0:07:08.022 --> 0:07:14.702 we've got bike gangs, I've got drugs, we've got violent crime, murder, 0:07:15.342 --> 0:07:19.262 and a lot of these things play into the theory 0:07:19.382 --> 0:07:22.662 surrounding what happened at the Burgershev and in a lot 0:07:22.702 --> 0:07:25.142 of ways, it's quite maddening when you're trying to investigate 0:07:25.182 --> 0:07:28.822 a crime because there were so many bad actors in 0:07:29.222 --> 0:07:32.782 Speedway at the time, you know, chop shops as well, 0:07:32.902 --> 0:07:35.902 so places that would sort of steal cars and piece 0:07:35.942 --> 0:07:39.422 them out, that it's kind of hard to narrow the field. 0:07:39.462 --> 0:07:41.462 It's hard to kind of rule anybody out when you 0:07:41.502 --> 0:07:43.742 look at people that you think may have been capable 0:07:43.742 --> 0:07:47.342 of something as heinous as the quadruple murder of four 0:07:47.462 --> 0:07:51.342 kids in Speedway specifically at the time, there were plenty 0:07:51.382 --> 0:07:52.262 of people with form. 0:07:53.022 --> 0:07:57.342 How was the initial disappearance of these four young people 0:07:57.542 --> 0:08:01.222 discovered on that night or on that following morning in 0:08:01.262 --> 0:08:03.582 November nineteen seventy eight, there. 0:08:03.422 --> 0:08:07.462 Was an employee that was working there that went out 0:08:07.502 --> 0:08:10.902 on a date with another employee, and as he dropped 0:08:10.902 --> 0:08:12.622 his date off, he went back to see if they 0:08:12.622 --> 0:08:15.462 needed help closing and came in the back door and 0:08:15.542 --> 0:08:20.262 then subsequently found it open, and then went in and 0:08:20.302 --> 0:08:22.542 saw that the safe had been ransacked and some things 0:08:22.582 --> 0:08:26.302 were sort of like at place, and he rang the manager, 0:08:26.622 --> 0:08:29.982 and then the manager rang police, and then police came down. 0:08:30.502 --> 0:08:32.702 And what did they do? Did they move quickly? Did 0:08:32.702 --> 0:08:33.662 they ignore it? 0:08:34.062 --> 0:08:38.382 So in their infinite wisdom they let them reopen the 0:08:38.382 --> 0:08:41.902 restaurant the next day for business as usual, hoping that 0:08:42.262 --> 0:08:44.222 the kids had just kind of taken the money and 0:08:44.262 --> 0:08:45.182 gone off to party. 0:08:45.502 --> 0:08:48.782 In twenty twenty four, it's hard to comprehend that revisiting 0:08:48.822 --> 0:08:51.942 that yourselves. Is that like a normal thing to do 0:08:52.022 --> 0:08:54.542 in policing in the late seventies to just kind of 0:08:54.542 --> 0:08:56.822 ignore something that looks quite sinister and a bit like 0:08:56.862 --> 0:08:57.702 a crime scene. 0:08:57.942 --> 0:08:59.742 I think everybody accepts now. 0:09:00.102 --> 0:09:03.222 It was a mistake that kind of hamstrung the case 0:09:03.342 --> 0:09:07.342 really speed made police at the time. Remember, is kind 0:09:07.382 --> 0:09:09.782 of a small town, and even though there was a 0:09:09.782 --> 0:09:13.062 lot of violent they wouldn't have had to deal with 0:09:13.182 --> 0:09:17.622 many quadruple murders. And I think they just watched it 0:09:17.662 --> 0:09:19.502 and continued to botch it from there. 0:09:19.582 --> 0:09:21.782 You know. They restaged the crime. 0:09:21.502 --> 0:09:23.582 Scene a few days later so they could take crime 0:09:23.622 --> 0:09:26.942 scene photos. The kids were taken from the burger chef, 0:09:26.942 --> 0:09:29.542 but they were actually discovered about half an hour away 0:09:29.582 --> 0:09:33.262 in a warded area in Johnson County. There were things 0:09:33.302 --> 0:09:37.262 taken from that site in Johnson County. There were police 0:09:37.302 --> 0:09:39.822 that were fired later for being drunk on the job. 0:09:39.902 --> 0:09:42.622 And the whole thing was just a complete mess. 0:09:42.902 --> 0:09:45.942 I think like originally, you know, first forty eight hours, 0:09:45.942 --> 0:09:48.342 which is obviously we know now the most important in 0:09:48.382 --> 0:09:51.622 an investigation. I think, you know, they were hopeful, you know, 0:09:51.662 --> 0:09:54.462 because it was so under resource that you know first 0:09:54.502 --> 0:09:56.142 of all, that they did just go off and they 0:09:56.142 --> 0:09:58.062 were just going to turn up again. And then I 0:09:58.102 --> 0:10:00.502 think that they were hoping then that it would be 0:10:00.782 --> 0:10:03.862 kidnapping and there would be a ransom. And then from 0:10:03.902 --> 0:10:06.262 there when they found the bodies forty eight hours later, 0:10:06.422 --> 0:10:08.742 that's when paddic set in for them that they'd done 0:10:08.742 --> 0:10:09.302 the wrong thing. 0:10:10.422 --> 0:10:13.182 Do you expand a bit on how the bodies were 0:10:13.262 --> 0:10:15.982 found and in what state what had happened to those 0:10:16.022 --> 0:10:16.862 four young people. 0:10:17.342 --> 0:10:21.942 Danny and Ruth were found very close together, almost touching, 0:10:22.022 --> 0:10:26.382 like legs kind of touching. They were both shot in 0:10:26.422 --> 0:10:29.062 the back of the head. There was I think two 0:10:29.222 --> 0:10:32.622 shots in each of them. And then a little bit 0:10:32.702 --> 0:10:37.222 further away, Jane was found stabbed in the heart to 0:10:37.862 --> 0:10:40.502 stab wounds in her chest and it appears to be 0:10:40.582 --> 0:10:43.462 that that was over the shoulder, so either she was 0:10:43.582 --> 0:10:46.902 running or someone came up behind her and surprised her 0:10:46.902 --> 0:10:50.302 and she was stabbed twice. And then even further away, 0:10:50.662 --> 0:10:53.582 which is an infinite source of conversation between me and 0:10:53.582 --> 0:10:57.502 Adam and other people. Mark was found, and he was 0:10:57.862 --> 0:11:00.662 found where his back was sort of like laid back 0:11:00.702 --> 0:11:04.342 on his legs and he actually drowned on his own blood. 0:11:04.502 --> 0:11:07.582 So either he hid a tree branch as he was 0:11:07.662 --> 0:11:10.342 running or someone with a baseball bat. 0:11:10.542 --> 0:11:12.782 I mean, all murders are horrific, but what you've just 0:11:12.822 --> 0:11:17.502 described is horrifying, Like those final moments for those kids 0:11:17.822 --> 0:11:18.942 would have been horrendous. 0:11:19.662 --> 0:11:22.342 Yeah, I mean, you know, we've thought a lot about that. 0:11:22.582 --> 0:11:26.222 It's horrifying and it's confounding as well, because you know, 0:11:26.262 --> 0:11:29.422 you've got three different modes of death. It's hard to 0:11:29.462 --> 0:11:33.262 make sense of it. It sort of suggests a frenzied attack, 0:11:33.742 --> 0:11:37.462 but just don't know exactly what happened once they got 0:11:37.502 --> 0:11:39.622 the kids out to Johnson County. Did they take them 0:11:39.662 --> 0:11:43.222 out there intending to kill them? Did as you know, 0:11:43.262 --> 0:11:45.542 someone in our film says, you know, they went out 0:11:45.582 --> 0:11:46.702 there to buy themselves time. 0:11:46.822 --> 0:11:49.502 Something went wrong out there. We just don't know. 0:11:49.902 --> 0:11:55.782 But I think what you're describing those last few moments 0:11:55.862 --> 0:11:58.262 for the kids haunts us. And you know, we know 0:11:58.462 --> 0:12:02.262 obviously for Teresa and Norma it's the stuff of nightmares. 0:12:02.582 --> 0:12:05.982 Teresa being Ruth Shelton, one of the victim's sisters, and 0:12:06.062 --> 0:12:08.502 Norma is Danny, who was another victim, his mum. 0:12:09.022 --> 0:12:10.902 Well, let's focus a little bit more on their lives. 0:12:11.342 --> 0:12:15.062 Who were these teenagers? One of them was twenty so 0:12:15.102 --> 0:12:18.262 a young woman, Ruth, Mark, Jane, Danny. What do we 0:12:18.302 --> 0:12:20.062 know about them as people? 0:12:20.462 --> 0:12:22.902 We've read a lot about them and also like spoken 0:12:22.942 --> 0:12:28.102 to their families. So Jane, you know, from all accounts, 0:12:28.302 --> 0:12:33.742 was friendly, vivacious, loved animals, loved art, you know, was 0:12:34.262 --> 0:12:38.582 working her way up pretty quickly in the Burger chef 0:12:38.942 --> 0:12:41.782 you know other burger chefs as well. She'd come from 0:12:42.062 --> 0:12:45.622 another store called Plainfield, and you know, was ambitious and 0:12:45.982 --> 0:12:52.022 doing really well within that company. Mark was good at school, athletic, 0:12:52.422 --> 0:12:56.302 you know, popular, you know from everybody that was spoken 0:12:56.342 --> 0:13:00.382 to around, a good guy. Ruth had actually come from 0:13:00.702 --> 0:13:03.662 the dunkin Donuts next door where she worked and had 0:13:03.702 --> 0:13:06.622 only really just started at the Berger chef. She was 0:13:06.662 --> 0:13:10.582 into computers. She probably would have been a pioneer in 0:13:10.622 --> 0:13:14.302 that area, you know, because it was the seventies. Danny 0:13:14.982 --> 0:13:19.542 was into photography and also wanted to join the Air force. 0:13:20.302 --> 0:13:24.862 Your film really tries to focus on these people as people, 0:13:24.982 --> 0:13:27.622 not just victims, which is something that in the true 0:13:27.702 --> 0:13:30.902 crime genre some creators seem to have gotten a bit 0:13:30.942 --> 0:13:35.662 carried away with. Was that a big focus for you guys, Yeah. 0:13:35.462 --> 0:13:35.902 It was. 0:13:36.102 --> 0:13:38.382 In the course of the research we became quite close with, 0:13:38.702 --> 0:13:43.782 in particular Teresa and also Normal. We felt that we 0:13:44.102 --> 0:13:48.062 owed it to them, you know, that this film wasn't gratuitous, 0:13:48.222 --> 0:13:52.782 that this film was there to memorialize their loved ones, 0:13:53.182 --> 0:13:57.142 rather than having them be kind of pawns into something 0:13:57.382 --> 0:14:01.102 salacious and gratuitous, you know, something that exploits them for 0:14:01.102 --> 0:14:03.982 the sake of entertainment. You know, that was always front 0:14:03.982 --> 0:14:06.782 of mind for us, and that's what drove us. So 0:14:06.942 --> 0:14:10.062 you know, you'll notice in the film there's really very little, 0:14:10.102 --> 0:14:12.102 I mean one sort of description of the death scene, 0:14:12.102 --> 0:14:14.982 as Luke said, and other than that, we chose not 0:14:15.182 --> 0:14:19.702 to recreate that element of the story out of respect 0:14:19.702 --> 0:14:22.662 for them, and I think Teresa says it in the film. 0:14:22.862 --> 0:14:26.342 It's so often the boogeymen in these cases that get 0:14:26.422 --> 0:14:30.422 notarized and the victims are sort of forgotten, and we 0:14:30.742 --> 0:14:32.462 really wanted to sort of flip that on its head, 0:14:32.502 --> 0:14:35.062 and that was the focus in the writing. 0:14:35.142 --> 0:14:38.382 And how do you cast and film something like this 0:14:38.542 --> 0:14:41.342 when you're both based in Australia but you're dealing with 0:14:41.382 --> 0:14:44.542 an American crime. How did that process go? 0:14:45.142 --> 0:14:50.062 We cast Australian actors, We cast them out far and wide, 0:14:50.542 --> 0:14:54.502 and we lucked out with four sort of early career 0:14:55.142 --> 0:14:59.302 actors who were just extraordinary. They worked extensively with a 0:14:59.342 --> 0:15:02.422 dialect coach. The Midwestern drawls are really sort of specific 0:15:02.662 --> 0:15:05.182 kind of accent. It's not just a straight American accent, 0:15:05.902 --> 0:15:09.422 and we had kind of built characters for them, you know, 0:15:09.422 --> 0:15:11.982 it was on the page in the script at the. 0:15:12.022 --> 0:15:14.102 End of the day. You know, it was nineteen seventy eight. 0:15:14.102 --> 0:15:16.742 We didn't have a ton of archive family videos or 0:15:16.782 --> 0:15:18.942 anything like that, so you know, there was a lot 0:15:19.062 --> 0:15:23.422 that was left to them to fill in their mannerisms 0:15:24.062 --> 0:15:26.862 things like that. To their great credit, each of the 0:15:26.902 --> 0:15:32.102 four actors, Joe's Arta, Sie Randalls, Nya Coffee and DaVita 0:15:32.142 --> 0:15:38.742 McKenzie were just incredibly dedicated, so much of themselves, researched, 0:15:39.542 --> 0:15:43.742 worked incredibly diligently, and you know it's reflected in their performances. 0:15:44.022 --> 0:15:47.302 Does that mean you also created the Burger Chef here 0:15:47.382 --> 0:15:48.262 in Australia. 0:15:48.462 --> 0:15:52.342 Yeah, So we built it in Adelaide. We found an 0:15:52.382 --> 0:15:56.182 abandoned Chinese restaurant. The geography was pretty much exactly the 0:15:56.182 --> 0:16:01.782 same as the site in Indiana, and so with a 0:16:01.982 --> 0:16:05.502 lot of research and an amazing team, we were able 0:16:05.542 --> 0:16:09.102 to like gut the building, knockdown walls, put windows in, 0:16:09.742 --> 0:16:12.782 andretty much build it down to the cup. 0:16:13.142 --> 0:16:16.502 Were there any moments from filming, either with the actors 0:16:16.662 --> 0:16:19.422 or with the real people from this story that really 0:16:19.422 --> 0:16:20.582 stand out to either of you. 0:16:20.942 --> 0:16:21.742 There's so many. 0:16:21.822 --> 0:16:24.262 I think the one that sort of stayed with me 0:16:24.342 --> 0:16:26.462 the most was the day that we all interviewed Norma, 0:16:26.502 --> 0:16:30.742 who was Danny's mum. She's someone who's you to move on, 0:16:30.902 --> 0:16:33.862 sort of had to compartmentalize it, doesn't talk about it 0:16:33.902 --> 0:16:37.062 a lot, doesn't do any media. We ended up meeting 0:16:37.102 --> 0:16:39.662 her and developing a bit of a rapport and she 0:16:39.862 --> 0:16:42.062 ended up agreeing to go on camera. That was a really, 0:16:42.062 --> 0:16:47.942 really tough day, particularly given that Danny had called her 0:16:48.182 --> 0:16:50.822 that night because somebody else was supposed to come in 0:16:50.862 --> 0:16:54.382 and help close. But Danny called his mum that night 0:16:54.422 --> 0:16:56.462 and said, hey, you know, can I hang back and 0:16:56.742 --> 0:16:58.502 do a couple of extra hours because he was quite 0:16:58.582 --> 0:17:01.142 young and supposed to be home by ten thirty. He 0:17:01.182 --> 0:17:02.942 called and asked if he could stay back and help 0:17:03.062 --> 0:17:05.342 for the extra couple hours pay so he could buy 0:17:05.382 --> 0:17:09.382 Christmas presents. They were reluctant, but Danny's mum and his 0:17:09.542 --> 0:17:11.662 dad agreed that who would do that and it was 0:17:11.702 --> 0:17:14.342 the last time they ever spoke to him. So hearing 0:17:14.422 --> 0:17:19.022 her recount that story and seeing just the guilt and 0:17:19.062 --> 0:17:22.382 the trauma was a really tough day. 0:17:25.622 --> 0:17:29.462 You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me, Jemma Bass. 0:17:29.942 --> 0:17:32.942 I'm speaking with Luke Linderman and Adam Camian about the 0:17:32.982 --> 0:17:42.942 Speedway murders. Well, there are a number of witnesses to 0:17:43.022 --> 0:17:46.422 the night in question that you've spoken to. I want 0:17:46.422 --> 0:17:50.702 to focus firstly on the two people that gave the 0:17:50.742 --> 0:17:55.582 descriptions that ended up being widely circulated at the time. Luke, 0:17:55.662 --> 0:17:58.342 what kind of description did they give? Who were police 0:17:58.382 --> 0:18:00.342 and the public being told to look out for? 0:18:00.942 --> 0:18:04.902 So there were two witnesses that were behind the dunkin 0:18:04.982 --> 0:18:06.622 Donuts or sort of like on that there was a 0:18:06.662 --> 0:18:10.622 train line behind and they were approached by two men 0:18:11.062 --> 0:18:13.662 who told them to kind of move on. One of 0:18:13.702 --> 0:18:17.022 the men was long haired with a beard, and the 0:18:17.062 --> 0:18:20.582 other was clean shaven with shorter, blonde hair, which is 0:18:20.622 --> 0:18:25.222 basically like describing every man in seventy. Subsequently, they then 0:18:25.502 --> 0:18:29.742 did police sketches based on their descriptions, and then also 0:18:29.862 --> 0:18:33.142 these really weird busts that were made out of clay, 0:18:33.262 --> 0:18:35.982 like I think it was one of the detective's nieces 0:18:36.022 --> 0:18:39.742 who went to art school, and they're like synonymous with 0:18:39.782 --> 0:18:43.422 this case. They are really very freaky and out there. 0:18:43.702 --> 0:18:45.902 I was going to say they look like an art project, 0:18:45.942 --> 0:18:47.382 and interestingly they are. 0:18:48.222 --> 0:18:52.022 It's worth googling for people who are listening, because it 0:18:52.102 --> 0:18:55.622 really is quite wild that anyone would release these two 0:18:55.702 --> 0:18:59.102 ridiculous busts to the public, and then they were put on. 0:18:59.182 --> 0:19:02.622 Public display like in mauls for people to kind of 0:19:02.622 --> 0:19:06.422 walk past and look at and then find those two people. 0:19:06.542 --> 0:19:08.582 So that was quite unique. Actually, that was one of 0:19:08.622 --> 0:19:11.902 the first things that I saw when I was researching 0:19:11.982 --> 0:19:13.942 the case and kind of draw into it that these 0:19:14.142 --> 0:19:17.502 busts were, you know, what was given to the public Adam. 0:19:17.542 --> 0:19:20.302 One of the early prominent theories was that these four 0:19:20.342 --> 0:19:23.502 became victims of a local robbery gang. Can you talk 0:19:23.542 --> 0:19:25.342 us through who they were, what were they doing at 0:19:25.342 --> 0:19:25.742 the time. 0:19:26.222 --> 0:19:29.222 Yeah, this was a crew of guys from around the 0:19:29.302 --> 0:19:36.702 Johnson County area who had been robbing KFC's other fast 0:19:36.742 --> 0:19:39.462 food restaurants, and in particular there were a few burger 0:19:39.582 --> 0:19:42.742 chefs that they knocked over as well. It was a 0:19:42.782 --> 0:19:46.262 theory that came from Indiana State Police detective at a 0:19:46.302 --> 0:19:49.222 time called Ken York, and it's a theory that some 0:19:49.542 --> 0:19:54.222 people in law enforcement and others still believe is the answer. 0:19:54.782 --> 0:19:57.182 I think if you knew nothing about this case and 0:19:57.262 --> 0:19:59.702 you kind of came to the robber gang theory, which 0:19:59.782 --> 0:20:03.222 is what we've called it in the film, it's incredibly compelling. 0:20:03.422 --> 0:20:07.022 It's very convincing. We think that there are some holes 0:20:07.302 --> 0:20:10.542 in it. People always say that the mo of the 0:20:10.582 --> 0:20:13.142 robber gang coming in through the back door at closing 0:20:13.182 --> 0:20:16.542 when somebody was taking out the trash. The reality is 0:20:16.982 --> 0:20:19.862 nobody knows that, and yes, the back door was found 0:20:19.902 --> 0:20:21.982 a jar, But how the kids were taken out of 0:20:22.022 --> 0:20:25.462 the restaurant is a complete mystery. Because this is something 0:20:25.462 --> 0:20:27.142 that we sort of try to address in the film. 0:20:27.422 --> 0:20:29.702 The hours between about eleven thirty when we believe the 0:20:29.782 --> 0:20:33.862 kids were taken and sort of roughly one thirty am 0:20:34.022 --> 0:20:36.462 the next morning when shots are heard out at Johnson 0:20:36.502 --> 0:20:39.862 County is kind of this black hole in time that 0:20:40.142 --> 0:20:44.422 you people speculate over endlessly. And the robber gang is 0:20:44.462 --> 0:20:47.062 one of the more convincing theories that you hear. 0:20:47.502 --> 0:20:51.102 Luke tell me about Donald Forrester. How did he become 0:20:51.142 --> 0:20:52.062 involved in this case? 0:20:52.502 --> 0:20:57.342 Donald Forrester was a known bad actor in the area 0:20:57.382 --> 0:21:02.502 who was in jail for a violent rape where he 0:21:02.582 --> 0:21:06.862 was serving ninety five years. He came to police attention 0:21:07.902 --> 0:21:13.462 and then subsequently confess twice, recounted twice. We played some 0:21:13.502 --> 0:21:18.062 of the second confession in the film where it feels 0:21:18.142 --> 0:21:22.822 like he's being led. You know, some of his answers 0:21:22.902 --> 0:21:26.582 don't really kind of correlate with how the bots were 0:21:26.622 --> 0:21:30.862 actually found, and you know, the talk was that, you know, 0:21:30.942 --> 0:21:33.902 he was actually shown into the war room and kind 0:21:33.902 --> 0:21:36.942 of got to see a lot of the crime saying 0:21:36.942 --> 0:21:40.622 photographs before he had his confession. So in the end 0:21:41.782 --> 0:21:44.342 recounted for the second time, and then they didn't have 0:21:44.462 --> 0:21:46.782 enough to prosecute, so it was pretty much dropped. 0:21:47.182 --> 0:21:49.462 But why would he want to confess to a crime 0:21:49.502 --> 0:21:49.942 he didn't do. 0:21:50.342 --> 0:21:52.582 He was in a pretty bad prison at the time 0:21:52.662 --> 0:21:55.222 and wanted to be moved, and I think through the 0:21:55.342 --> 0:21:58.062 kind of police leverage, they're going to move him into 0:21:58.222 --> 0:22:02.182 like a nicer, cushier prison. So you know, he felt like, 0:22:02.622 --> 0:22:04.462 you know, if he gave this confession that you know, 0:22:04.782 --> 0:22:05.502 better treatment. 0:22:05.982 --> 0:22:08.582 Adam, it's kind of obvious to look at the victims 0:22:08.622 --> 0:22:11.502 themselves and see whether there's any possible links there to 0:22:11.542 --> 0:22:15.342 see whether you know they could have enemies or anyone 0:22:15.342 --> 0:22:17.982 potentially out to get them. What were you able to 0:22:18.062 --> 0:22:20.782 find out about that? I understand that there was a 0:22:20.822 --> 0:22:24.702 bit of a focus on Mark for a second, and 0:22:24.742 --> 0:22:27.342 then a lot of focus on Jane and her family. 0:22:27.782 --> 0:22:33.662 Both Mark and Jane had brothers who had their problems 0:22:33.822 --> 0:22:37.582 with the law. Jane's brother in particular, who did kind 0:22:37.582 --> 0:22:39.862 of fit the description of the bearded man. He had 0:22:39.862 --> 0:22:41.982 a sort of shock of brown hair and a beard. 0:22:41.982 --> 0:22:45.902 At the time, he was running with a motorcycle gang 0:22:45.982 --> 0:22:49.942 called the Sons of Silence and ended up being arrested 0:22:50.142 --> 0:22:53.662