1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,302 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges the 2 00:00:16,342 --> 00:00:20,182 Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was recorded 3 00:00:20,182 --> 00:00:25,542 Speaker 1: on It's a Chilly Night in November nineteen seventy eight 4 00:00:25,662 --> 00:00:29,222 Speaker 1: in the town of Speedway, Indianapolis, and the four teenagers 5 00:00:29,262 --> 00:00:32,062 Speaker 1: on shift at the local burgerschef are starting to clean up. 6 00:00:35,262 --> 00:00:37,462 Speaker 2: Hey, Mama, I was just wondering if I could stay 7 00:00:37,502 --> 00:00:38,262 Speaker 2: back to help close. 8 00:00:38,822 --> 00:00:41,382 Speaker 1: Danny Davis is talking to his mum Norma in the 9 00:00:41,382 --> 00:00:45,342 Speaker 1: back room. He's only sixteen and state law dictates that 10 00:00:45,382 --> 00:00:49,302 Speaker 1: he's only supposed to work until ten pm, but his manager, 11 00:00:49,382 --> 00:00:52,102 Speaker 1: twenty year old Jane Freed, wants him to check with 12 00:00:52,142 --> 00:00:54,862 Speaker 1: his parents if he can stay in extra hour or so. 13 00:00:54,982 --> 00:00:59,342 Speaker 1: They agree. He joins sixteen year old Mark Flemons and 14 00:00:59,462 --> 00:01:02,342 Speaker 1: seventeen year old Ruth Shelton as they go through the 15 00:01:02,382 --> 00:01:07,702 Speaker 1: motions of mopping, wiping and packing away. But when their colleague, 16 00:01:07,782 --> 00:01:10,982 Speaker 1: fellow teenager Brian Crane, stops by the sh shop just 17 00:01:11,022 --> 00:01:14,382 Speaker 1: after midnight to pay his coworkers a visit, he notices 18 00:01:14,462 --> 00:01:18,382 Speaker 1: something odd. The lights are on, the door is open, 19 00:01:18,942 --> 00:01:23,982 Speaker 1: but there is no one there. Scared, he calls police. 20 00:01:24,342 --> 00:01:27,462 Speaker 1: Thank you Police, emergency, but they very quickly decide it's 21 00:01:27,542 --> 00:01:30,462 Speaker 1: just a case of a bunch of irresponsible youngsters walking 22 00:01:30,542 --> 00:01:32,582 Speaker 1: off the job to go party for the night. It 23 00:01:32,662 --> 00:01:35,862 Speaker 1: is a Friday, after all, But none of them return home, 24 00:01:36,662 --> 00:01:51,382 Speaker 1: and thirty six hours later police receive a devastating call. 25 00:01:51,542 --> 00:01:55,302 Speaker 1: I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations Amoma 26 00:01:55,382 --> 00:01:59,502 Speaker 1: mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking 27 00:01:59,502 --> 00:02:02,342 Speaker 1: to the people who know the most about them. The 28 00:02:02,382 --> 00:02:07,022 Speaker 1: bodies of Danny, Jane Mark, and Druth were found two 29 00:02:07,102 --> 00:02:10,502 Speaker 1: days after their final shift at Bergershev in late nineteen seven, 30 00:02:11,182 --> 00:02:16,222 Speaker 1: twenty miles away in a rural field. They've been shot, stabbed, 31 00:02:16,582 --> 00:02:20,022 Speaker 1: and bashed, each of their murders telling its own devastating 32 00:02:20,062 --> 00:02:24,822 Speaker 1: tale of the teenager's last terrifying moments alive. They were 33 00:02:24,862 --> 00:02:27,982 Speaker 1: all still wearing their orange and brown Burger chef uniforms. 34 00:02:28,502 --> 00:02:31,542 Speaker 1: They were all left in the positions they died. Their 35 00:02:31,542 --> 00:02:34,662 Speaker 1: deaths shocked their small, tight knit community, but from the 36 00:02:34,702 --> 00:02:39,062 Speaker 1: start the police investigation was bungled, and forty years later, 37 00:02:39,622 --> 00:02:44,062 Speaker 1: so many questions about that night remain. Ossies Luke Rinderman 38 00:02:44,182 --> 00:02:46,702 Speaker 1: and Adam came in are the co writers and directors 39 00:02:46,702 --> 00:02:50,502 Speaker 1: of a new documentary drama called The Speedway Murders, which 40 00:02:50,542 --> 00:02:54,422 Speaker 1: tries to unpick and unpack the various theories in this case. 41 00:02:55,342 --> 00:02:59,062 Speaker 1: They've been working on this investigation for five years, speaking 42 00:02:59,102 --> 00:03:03,702 Speaker 1: to families, witnesses, friends, and law enforcement about their recollections. 43 00:03:04,342 --> 00:03:15,422 Speaker 1: Both Luke and Adam join us. Now, Adam Luke, you 44 00:03:15,502 --> 00:03:18,422 Speaker 1: both live in Australia. This crime happened on the other 45 00:03:18,462 --> 00:03:23,142 Speaker 1: side of the world. So what drew you to revisiting 46 00:03:23,382 --> 00:03:24,662 Speaker 1: this crime? We'll start with you. 47 00:03:24,702 --> 00:03:28,662 Speaker 3: Adam Luke's a true crime tragic to the point where 48 00:03:28,702 --> 00:03:30,942 Speaker 3: I worry about him a little bit from time to time. 49 00:03:31,542 --> 00:03:33,542 Speaker 3: We had just had some interest in a script that 50 00:03:33,582 --> 00:03:37,302 Speaker 3: we'd written and were kind of looking for the next 51 00:03:37,462 --> 00:03:41,382 Speaker 3: thing to kind of keep the momentum going. We're big 52 00:03:41,422 --> 00:03:45,182 Speaker 3: fans of the period fashion music. For people who are 53 00:03:45,222 --> 00:03:47,702 Speaker 3: listening that don't know the crime that films based on 54 00:03:47,742 --> 00:03:50,782 Speaker 3: took place in nineteen seventy eight, that was appealing to us. 55 00:03:51,302 --> 00:03:54,822 Speaker 3: We discovered that it was unsolved, the investigation was botched, 56 00:03:54,902 --> 00:03:57,182 Speaker 3: so it felt like that it hadn't sort of been 57 00:03:57,182 --> 00:03:59,422 Speaker 3: given the attention that it should have. So we sort 58 00:03:59,422 --> 00:04:01,782 Speaker 3: of thought, well, maybe if we do a deep dive, 59 00:04:01,862 --> 00:04:04,982 Speaker 3: we can uncover some stuff. So we sort of went 60 00:04:05,062 --> 00:04:08,342 Speaker 3: down this rabbit hole and never really emerged. 61 00:04:08,902 --> 00:04:10,662 Speaker 1: Luke, is there a reason you didn't decid had to 62 00:04:10,702 --> 00:04:13,342 Speaker 1: go down a more Australian unsolved crime. 63 00:04:13,542 --> 00:04:16,662 Speaker 2: I mean, there's definitely Australian unsolved crimes that we're interested in. 64 00:04:16,782 --> 00:04:19,582 Speaker 2: But you know, we were looking all over the world, 65 00:04:20,062 --> 00:04:22,502 Speaker 2: and you know, there was just a certain tragedy to 66 00:04:22,542 --> 00:04:24,862 Speaker 2: the fact that it wasn't solved, and you know, there 67 00:04:24,902 --> 00:04:27,622 Speaker 2: was four people at the center, of young people that 68 00:04:28,022 --> 00:04:32,182 Speaker 2: nothing had been done about, and you know, the families 69 00:04:32,262 --> 00:04:34,462 Speaker 2: not knowing, and so yeah, it just kind of like 70 00:04:34,582 --> 00:04:38,422 Speaker 2: it hit us, and as Adam said, we never really 71 00:04:38,422 --> 00:04:39,222 Speaker 2: come up from it. 72 00:04:39,342 --> 00:04:41,662 Speaker 3: The crime itself happened on the same weekend as the 73 00:04:41,742 --> 00:04:47,902 Speaker 3: Jonestown massacre, so it had always kind of gotten short shrift. 74 00:04:47,982 --> 00:04:51,462 Speaker 3: It never really got the attention that it deserved, which 75 00:04:51,502 --> 00:04:53,222 Speaker 3: was another thing that sort of enticed us. 76 00:04:53,582 --> 00:04:55,262 Speaker 1: Before we get more into the crime, I'd love to 77 00:04:55,262 --> 00:04:57,902 Speaker 1: get a bit more background on you two. You guys 78 00:04:57,902 --> 00:04:59,622 Speaker 1: have known each other for a long time, haven't you. 79 00:05:00,022 --> 00:05:02,662 Speaker 3: It's true we were introduced by a mutual friend in 80 00:05:03,582 --> 00:05:06,982 Speaker 3: I think nineteen eighty nine, so we've kind of been 81 00:05:07,262 --> 00:05:08,702 Speaker 3: really tight ever since. 82 00:05:09,262 --> 00:05:12,062 Speaker 1: What's it like working on a project this big, this 83 00:05:12,342 --> 00:05:15,502 Speaker 1: in depth, this kind of gruesome with your best mete. 84 00:05:15,742 --> 00:05:17,062 Speaker 4: It's a great friendship tester. 85 00:05:17,742 --> 00:05:20,582 Speaker 2: It can be maddening at times. I mean we do 86 00:05:20,902 --> 00:05:23,582 Speaker 2: piss each other off at times, and it is definitely 87 00:05:23,622 --> 00:05:26,542 Speaker 2: a tester and you know, going over and doing you know, 88 00:05:26,662 --> 00:05:31,342 Speaker 2: various trips to Indianapolis and staying very closely together, you know, 89 00:05:31,502 --> 00:05:35,862 Speaker 2: does test the friendship. We never fight about anything not creative. 90 00:05:35,902 --> 00:05:40,062 Speaker 2: It's always creative issues. So it's never like anything about 91 00:05:40,182 --> 00:05:43,182 Speaker 2: the person. It's just you know, we're both so passionate 92 00:05:43,182 --> 00:05:43,662 Speaker 2: about it. 93 00:05:44,222 --> 00:05:46,462 Speaker 1: The burger chef we're talking about is in a place 94 00:05:46,502 --> 00:05:50,822 Speaker 1: called Speedway in Indianapolis, Adam, what's that part of America? 95 00:05:51,022 --> 00:05:53,502 Speaker 3: Like? It's Midwest, so it's sort of in the heartland. 96 00:05:54,102 --> 00:05:56,782 Speaker 3: You know, most people when they go and visit America, 97 00:05:56,822 --> 00:05:58,982 Speaker 3: they don't tend to go to the Midwest. They go 98 00:05:59,062 --> 00:06:01,022 Speaker 3: to the coasts, you know, sort of LA or New 99 00:06:01,102 --> 00:06:03,262 Speaker 3: York or you know, maybe a Chicago or something like that, 100 00:06:03,502 --> 00:06:06,022 Speaker 3: which actually is just kind of on top of Indiana 101 00:06:06,062 --> 00:06:08,382 Speaker 3: where this is. In a lot of ways, it's the 102 00:06:08,422 --> 00:06:11,742 Speaker 3: real America. Indianapolis is kind of a small town. I 103 00:06:11,742 --> 00:06:15,382 Speaker 3: think there's under a million people there, and Speedway is 104 00:06:15,462 --> 00:06:19,742 Speaker 3: kind of a town within Indianapolis, a suburb within Indianapolis. 105 00:06:19,782 --> 00:06:25,862 Speaker 3: I guess they're an extremely hospitable people, and you know, 106 00:06:25,982 --> 00:06:27,942 Speaker 3: if you sort of venture outside the city, it's a 107 00:06:27,982 --> 00:06:32,862 Speaker 3: lot of cornfields and diners and that sort of typical 108 00:06:33,102 --> 00:06:33,862 Speaker 3: Middle America. 109 00:06:34,462 --> 00:06:38,022 Speaker 1: You've mentioned that we're talking nineteen seventy eight, and around 110 00:06:38,102 --> 00:06:40,182 Speaker 1: the time of this crime, there had actually been quite 111 00:06:40,222 --> 00:06:43,782 Speaker 1: a few violent incidents. Can you set that scene for us? 112 00:06:44,062 --> 00:06:46,502 Speaker 4: So Speedway is this little enclave. 113 00:06:46,622 --> 00:06:49,902 Speaker 3: I guess that, by all reports was kind of a 114 00:06:49,982 --> 00:06:52,902 Speaker 3: sleepy little hamlet. People didn't tend to lock their doors. 115 00:06:52,942 --> 00:06:55,022 Speaker 3: It was a safe place to grow up. It was 116 00:06:55,022 --> 00:06:57,982 Speaker 3: an autoparts industry, you know, it was the sort of 117 00:06:58,222 --> 00:07:04,182 Speaker 3: economic driver. Something happened in the late seventies. This kind 118 00:07:04,182 --> 00:07:07,302 Speaker 3: of hell mouth opens in Speedway, and all of a sudden, 119 00:07:08,022 --> 00:07:14,702 Speaker 3: we've got bike gangs, I've got drugs, we've got violent crime, murder, 120 00:07:15,342 --> 00:07:19,262 Speaker 3: and a lot of these things play into the theory 121 00:07:19,382 --> 00:07:22,662 Speaker 3: surrounding what happened at the Burgershev and in a lot 122 00:07:22,702 --> 00:07:25,142 Speaker 3: of ways, it's quite maddening when you're trying to investigate 123 00:07:25,182 --> 00:07:28,822 Speaker 3: a crime because there were so many bad actors in 124 00:07:29,222 --> 00:07:32,782 Speaker 3: Speedway at the time, you know, chop shops as well, 125 00:07:32,902 --> 00:07:35,902 Speaker 3: so places that would sort of steal cars and piece 126 00:07:35,942 --> 00:07:39,422 Speaker 3: them out, that it's kind of hard to narrow the field. 127 00:07:39,462 --> 00:07:41,462 Speaker 3: It's hard to kind of rule anybody out when you 128 00:07:41,502 --> 00:07:43,742 Speaker 3: look at people that you think may have been capable 129 00:07:43,742 --> 00:07:47,342 Speaker 3: of something as heinous as the quadruple murder of four 130 00:07:47,462 --> 00:07:51,342 Speaker 3: kids in Speedway specifically at the time, there were plenty 131 00:07:51,382 --> 00:07:52,262 Speaker 3: of people with form. 132 00:07:53,022 --> 00:07:57,342 Speaker 1: How was the initial disappearance of these four young people 133 00:07:57,542 --> 00:08:01,222 Speaker 1: discovered on that night or on that following morning in 134 00:08:01,262 --> 00:08:03,582 Speaker 1: November nineteen seventy eight, there. 135 00:08:03,422 --> 00:08:07,462 Speaker 2: Was an employee that was working there that went out 136 00:08:07,502 --> 00:08:10,902 Speaker 2: on a date with another employee, and as he dropped 137 00:08:10,902 --> 00:08:12,622 Speaker 2: his date off, he went back to see if they 138 00:08:12,622 --> 00:08:15,462 Speaker 2: needed help closing and came in the back door and 139 00:08:15,542 --> 00:08:20,262 Speaker 2: then subsequently found it open, and then went in and 140 00:08:20,302 --> 00:08:22,542 Speaker 2: saw that the safe had been ransacked and some things 141 00:08:22,582 --> 00:08:26,302 Speaker 2: were sort of like at place, and he rang the manager, 142 00:08:26,622 --> 00:08:29,982 Speaker 2: and then the manager rang police, and then police came down. 143 00:08:30,502 --> 00:08:32,702 Speaker 1: And what did they do? Did they move quickly? Did 144 00:08:32,702 --> 00:08:33,662 Speaker 1: they ignore it? 145 00:08:34,062 --> 00:08:38,382 Speaker 2: So in their infinite wisdom they let them reopen the 146 00:08:38,382 --> 00:08:41,902 Speaker 2: restaurant the next day for business as usual, hoping that 147 00:08:42,262 --> 00:08:44,222 Speaker 2: the kids had just kind of taken the money and 148 00:08:44,262 --> 00:08:45,182 Speaker 2: gone off to party. 149 00:08:45,502 --> 00:08:48,782 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty four, it's hard to comprehend that revisiting 150 00:08:48,822 --> 00:08:51,942 Speaker 1: that yourselves. Is that like a normal thing to do 151 00:08:52,022 --> 00:08:54,542 Speaker 1: in policing in the late seventies to just kind of 152 00:08:54,542 --> 00:08:56,822 Speaker 1: ignore something that looks quite sinister and a bit like 153 00:08:56,862 --> 00:08:57,702 Speaker 1: a crime scene. 154 00:08:57,942 --> 00:08:59,742 Speaker 4: I think everybody accepts now. 155 00:09:00,102 --> 00:09:03,222 Speaker 3: It was a mistake that kind of hamstrung the case 156 00:09:03,342 --> 00:09:07,342 Speaker 3: really speed made police at the time. Remember, is kind 157 00:09:07,382 --> 00:09:09,782 Speaker 3: of a small town, and even though there was a 158 00:09:09,782 --> 00:09:13,062 Speaker 3: lot of violent they wouldn't have had to deal with 159 00:09:13,182 --> 00:09:17,622 Speaker 3: many quadruple murders. And I think they just watched it 160 00:09:17,662 --> 00:09:19,502 Speaker 3: and continued to botch it from there. 161 00:09:19,582 --> 00:09:21,782 Speaker 4: You know. They restaged the crime. 162 00:09:21,502 --> 00:09:23,582 Speaker 3: Scene a few days later so they could take crime 163 00:09:23,622 --> 00:09:26,942 Speaker 3: scene photos. The kids were taken from the burger chef, 164 00:09:26,942 --> 00:09:29,542 Speaker 3: but they were actually discovered about half an hour away 165 00:09:29,582 --> 00:09:33,262 Speaker 3: in a warded area in Johnson County. There were things 166 00:09:33,302 --> 00:09:37,262 Speaker 3: taken from that site in Johnson County. There were police 167 00:09:37,302 --> 00:09:39,822 Speaker 3: that were fired later for being drunk on the job. 168 00:09:39,902 --> 00:09:42,622 Speaker 3: And the whole thing was just a complete mess. 169 00:09:42,902 --> 00:09:45,942 Speaker 2: I think like originally, you know, first forty eight hours, 170 00:09:45,942 --> 00:09:48,342 Speaker 2: which is obviously we know now the most important in 171 00:09:48,382 --> 00:09:51,622 Speaker 2: an investigation. I think, you know, they were hopeful, you know, 172 00:09:51,662 --> 00:09:54,462 Speaker 2: because it was so under resource that you know first 173 00:09:54,502 --> 00:09:56,142 Speaker 2: of all, that they did just go off and they 174 00:09:56,142 --> 00:09:58,062 Speaker 2: were just going to turn up again. And then I 175 00:09:58,102 --> 00:10:00,502 Speaker 2: think that they were hoping then that it would be 176 00:10:00,782 --> 00:10:03,862 Speaker 2: kidnapping and there would be a ransom. And then from 177 00:10:03,902 --> 00:10:06,262 Speaker 2: there when they found the bodies forty eight hours later, 178 00:10:06,422 --> 00:10:08,742 Speaker 2: that's when paddic set in for them that they'd done 179 00:10:08,742 --> 00:10:09,302 Speaker 2: the wrong thing. 180 00:10:10,422 --> 00:10:13,182 Speaker 1: Do you expand a bit on how the bodies were 181 00:10:13,262 --> 00:10:15,982 Speaker 1: found and in what state what had happened to those 182 00:10:16,022 --> 00:10:16,862 Speaker 1: four young people. 183 00:10:17,342 --> 00:10:21,942 Speaker 2: Danny and Ruth were found very close together, almost touching, 184 00:10:22,022 --> 00:10:26,382 Speaker 2: like legs kind of touching. They were both shot in 185 00:10:26,422 --> 00:10:29,062 Speaker 2: the back of the head. There was I think two 186 00:10:29,222 --> 00:10:32,622 Speaker 2: shots in each of them. And then a little bit 187 00:10:32,702 --> 00:10:37,222 Speaker 2: further away, Jane was found stabbed in the heart to 188 00:10:37,862 --> 00:10:40,502 Speaker 2: stab wounds in her chest and it appears to be 189 00:10:40,582 --> 00:10:43,462 Speaker 2: that that was over the shoulder, so either she was 190 00:10:43,582 --> 00:10:46,902 Speaker 2: running or someone came up behind her and surprised her 191 00:10:46,902 --> 00:10:50,302 Speaker 2: and she was stabbed twice. And then even further away, 192 00:10:50,662 --> 00:10:53,582 Speaker 2: which is an infinite source of conversation between me and 193 00:10:53,582 --> 00:10:57,502 Speaker 2: Adam and other people. Mark was found, and he was 194 00:10:57,862 --> 00:11:00,662 Speaker 2: found where his back was sort of like laid back 195 00:11:00,702 --> 00:11:04,342 Speaker 2: on his legs and he actually drowned on his own blood. 196 00:11:04,502 --> 00:11:07,582 Speaker 2: So either he hid a tree branch as he was 197 00:11:07,662 --> 00:11:10,342 Speaker 2: running or someone with a baseball bat. 198 00:11:10,542 --> 00:11:12,782 Speaker 1: I mean, all murders are horrific, but what you've just 199 00:11:12,822 --> 00:11:17,502 Speaker 1: described is horrifying, Like those final moments for those kids 200 00:11:17,822 --> 00:11:18,942 Speaker 1: would have been horrendous. 201 00:11:19,662 --> 00:11:22,342 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you know, we've thought a lot about that. 202 00:11:22,582 --> 00:11:26,222 Speaker 3: It's horrifying and it's confounding as well, because you know, 203 00:11:26,262 --> 00:11:29,422 Speaker 3: you've got three different modes of death. It's hard to 204 00:11:29,462 --> 00:11:33,262 Speaker 3: make sense of it. It sort of suggests a frenzied attack, 205 00:11:33,742 --> 00:11:37,462 Speaker 3: but just don't know exactly what happened once they got 206 00:11:37,502 --> 00:11:39,622 Speaker 3: the kids out to Johnson County. Did they take them 207 00:11:39,662 --> 00:11:43,222 Speaker 3: out there intending to kill them? Did as you know, 208 00:11:43,262 --> 00:11:45,542 Speaker 3: someone in our film says, you know, they went out 209 00:11:45,582 --> 00:11:46,702 Speaker 3: there to buy themselves time. 210 00:11:46,822 --> 00:11:49,502 Speaker 4: Something went wrong out there. We just don't know. 211 00:11:49,902 --> 00:11:55,782 Speaker 3: But I think what you're describing those last few moments 212 00:11:55,862 --> 00:11:58,262 Speaker 3: for the kids haunts us. And you know, we know 213 00:11:58,462 --> 00:12:02,262 Speaker 3: obviously for Teresa and Norma it's the stuff of nightmares. 214 00:12:02,582 --> 00:12:05,982 Speaker 3: Teresa being Ruth Shelton, one of the victim's sisters, and 215 00:12:06,062 --> 00:12:08,502 Speaker 3: Norma is Danny, who was another victim, his mum. 216 00:12:09,022 --> 00:12:10,902 Speaker 1: Well, let's focus a little bit more on their lives. 217 00:12:11,342 --> 00:12:15,062 Speaker 1: Who were these teenagers? One of them was twenty so 218 00:12:15,102 --> 00:12:18,262 Speaker 1: a young woman, Ruth, Mark, Jane, Danny. What do we 219 00:12:18,302 --> 00:12:20,062 Speaker 1: know about them as people? 220 00:12:20,462 --> 00:12:22,902 Speaker 2: We've read a lot about them and also like spoken 221 00:12:22,942 --> 00:12:28,102 Speaker 2: to their families. So Jane, you know, from all accounts, 222 00:12:28,302 --> 00:12:33,742 Speaker 2: was friendly, vivacious, loved animals, loved art, you know, was 223 00:12:34,262 --> 00:12:38,582 Speaker 2: working her way up pretty quickly in the Burger chef 224 00:12:38,942 --> 00:12:41,782 Speaker 2: you know other burger chefs as well. She'd come from 225 00:12:42,062 --> 00:12:45,622 Speaker 2: another store called Plainfield, and you know, was ambitious and 226 00:12:45,982 --> 00:12:52,022 Speaker 2: doing really well within that company. Mark was good at school, athletic, 227 00:12:52,422 --> 00:12:56,302 Speaker 2: you know, popular, you know from everybody that was spoken 228 00:12:56,342 --> 00:13:00,382 Speaker 2: to around, a good guy. Ruth had actually come from 229 00:13:00,702 --> 00:13:03,662 Speaker 2: the dunkin Donuts next door where she worked and had 230 00:13:03,702 --> 00:13:06,622 Speaker 2: only really just started at the Berger chef. She was 231 00:13:06,662 --> 00:13:10,582 Speaker 2: into computers. She probably would have been a pioneer in 232 00:13:10,622 --> 00:13:14,302 Speaker 2: that area, you know, because it was the seventies. Danny 233 00:13:14,982 --> 00:13:19,542 Speaker 2: was into photography and also wanted to join the Air force. 234 00:13:20,302 --> 00:13:24,862 Speaker 1: Your film really tries to focus on these people as people, 235 00:13:24,982 --> 00:13:27,622 Speaker 1: not just victims, which is something that in the true 236 00:13:27,702 --> 00:13:30,902 Speaker 1: crime genre some creators seem to have gotten a bit 237 00:13:30,942 --> 00:13:35,662 Speaker 1: carried away with. Was that a big focus for you guys, Yeah. 238 00:13:35,462 --> 00:13:35,902 Speaker 4: It was. 239 00:13:36,102 --> 00:13:38,382 Speaker 3: In the course of the research we became quite close with, 240 00:13:38,702 --> 00:13:43,782 Speaker 3: in particular Teresa and also Normal. We felt that we 241 00:13:44,102 --> 00:13:48,062 Speaker 3: owed it to them, you know, that this film wasn't gratuitous, 242 00:13:48,222 --> 00:13:52,782 Speaker 3: that this film was there to memorialize their loved ones, 243 00:13:53,182 --> 00:13:57,142 Speaker 3: rather than having them be kind of pawns into something 244 00:13:57,382 --> 00:14:01,102 Speaker 3: salacious and gratuitous, you know, something that exploits them for 245 00:14:01,102 --> 00:14:03,982 Speaker 3: the sake of entertainment. You know, that was always front 246 00:14:03,982 --> 00:14:06,782 Speaker 3: of mind for us, and that's what drove us. So 247 00:14:06,942 --> 00:14:10,062 Speaker 3: you know, you'll notice in the film there's really very little, 248 00:14:10,102 --> 00:14:12,102 Speaker 3: I mean one sort of description of the death scene, 249 00:14:12,102 --> 00:14:14,982 Speaker 3: as Luke said, and other than that, we chose not 250 00:14:15,182 --> 00:14:19,702 Speaker 3: to recreate that element of the story out of respect 251 00:14:19,702 --> 00:14:22,662 Speaker 3: for them, and I think Teresa says it in the film. 252 00:14:22,862 --> 00:14:26,342 Speaker 3: It's so often the boogeymen in these cases that get 253 00:14:26,422 --> 00:14:30,422 Speaker 3: notarized and the victims are sort of forgotten, and we 254 00:14:30,742 --> 00:14:32,462 Speaker 3: really wanted to sort of flip that on its head, 255 00:14:32,502 --> 00:14:35,062 Speaker 3: and that was the focus in the writing. 256 00:14:35,142 --> 00:14:38,382 Speaker 1: And how do you cast and film something like this 257 00:14:38,542 --> 00:14:41,342 Speaker 1: when you're both based in Australia but you're dealing with 258 00:14:41,382 --> 00:14:44,542 Speaker 1: an American crime. How did that process go? 259 00:14:45,142 --> 00:14:50,062 Speaker 3: We cast Australian actors, We cast them out far and wide, 260 00:14:50,542 --> 00:14:54,502 Speaker 3: and we lucked out with four sort of early career 261 00:14:55,142 --> 00:14:59,302 Speaker 3: actors who were just extraordinary. They worked extensively with a 262 00:14:59,342 --> 00:15:02,422 Speaker 3: dialect coach. The Midwestern drawls are really sort of specific 263 00:15:02,662 --> 00:15:05,182 Speaker 3: kind of accent. It's not just a straight American accent, 264 00:15:05,902 --> 00:15:09,422 Speaker 3: and we had kind of built characters for them, you know, 265 00:15:09,422 --> 00:15:11,982 Speaker 3: it was on the page in the script at the. 266 00:15:12,022 --> 00:15:14,102 Speaker 4: End of the day. You know, it was nineteen seventy eight. 267 00:15:14,102 --> 00:15:16,742 Speaker 3: We didn't have a ton of archive family videos or 268 00:15:16,782 --> 00:15:18,942 Speaker 3: anything like that, so you know, there was a lot 269 00:15:19,062 --> 00:15:23,422 Speaker 3: that was left to them to fill in their mannerisms 270 00:15:24,062 --> 00:15:26,862 Speaker 3: things like that. To their great credit, each of the 271 00:15:26,902 --> 00:15:32,102 Speaker 3: four actors, Joe's Arta, Sie Randalls, Nya Coffee and DaVita 272 00:15:32,142 --> 00:15:38,742 Speaker 3: McKenzie were just incredibly dedicated, so much of themselves, researched, 273 00:15:39,542 --> 00:15:43,742 Speaker 3: worked incredibly diligently, and you know it's reflected in their performances. 274 00:15:44,022 --> 00:15:47,302 Speaker 1: Does that mean you also created the Burger Chef here 275 00:15:47,382 --> 00:15:48,262 Speaker 1: in Australia. 276 00:15:48,462 --> 00:15:52,342 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we built it in Adelaide. We found an 277 00:15:52,382 --> 00:15:56,182 Speaker 2: abandoned Chinese restaurant. The geography was pretty much exactly the 278 00:15:56,182 --> 00:16:01,782 Speaker 2: same as the site in Indiana, and so with a 279 00:16:01,982 --> 00:16:05,502 Speaker 2: lot of research and an amazing team, we were able 280 00:16:05,542 --> 00:16:09,102 Speaker 2: to like gut the building, knockdown walls, put windows in, 281 00:16:09,742 --> 00:16:12,782 Speaker 2: andretty much build it down to the cup. 282 00:16:13,142 --> 00:16:16,502 Speaker 1: Were there any moments from filming, either with the actors 283 00:16:16,662 --> 00:16:19,422 Speaker 1: or with the real people from this story that really 284 00:16:19,422 --> 00:16:20,582 Speaker 1: stand out to either of you. 285 00:16:20,942 --> 00:16:21,742 Speaker 4: There's so many. 286 00:16:21,822 --> 00:16:24,262 Speaker 3: I think the one that sort of stayed with me 287 00:16:24,342 --> 00:16:26,462 Speaker 3: the most was the day that we all interviewed Norma, 288 00:16:26,502 --> 00:16:30,742 Speaker 3: who was Danny's mum. She's someone who's you to move on, 289 00:16:30,902 --> 00:16:33,862 Speaker 3: sort of had to compartmentalize it, doesn't talk about it 290 00:16:33,902 --> 00:16:37,062 Speaker 3: a lot, doesn't do any media. We ended up meeting 291 00:16:37,102 --> 00:16:39,662 Speaker 3: her and developing a bit of a rapport and she 292 00:16:39,862 --> 00:16:42,062 Speaker 3: ended up agreeing to go on camera. That was a really, 293 00:16:42,062 --> 00:16:47,942 Speaker 3: really tough day, particularly given that Danny had called her 294 00:16:48,182 --> 00:16:50,822 Speaker 3: that night because somebody else was supposed to come in 295 00:16:50,862 --> 00:16:54,382 Speaker 3: and help close. But Danny called his mum that night 296 00:16:54,422 --> 00:16:56,462 Speaker 3: and said, hey, you know, can I hang back and 297 00:16:56,742 --> 00:16:58,502 Speaker 3: do a couple of extra hours because he was quite 298 00:16:58,582 --> 00:17:01,142 Speaker 3: young and supposed to be home by ten thirty. He 299 00:17:01,182 --> 00:17:02,942 Speaker 3: called and asked if he could stay back and help 300 00:17:03,062 --> 00:17:05,342 Speaker 3: for the extra couple hours pay so he could buy 301 00:17:05,382 --> 00:17:09,382 Speaker 3: Christmas presents. They were reluctant, but Danny's mum and his 302 00:17:09,542 --> 00:17:11,662 Speaker 3: dad agreed that who would do that and it was 303 00:17:11,702 --> 00:17:14,342 Speaker 3: the last time they ever spoke to him. So hearing 304 00:17:14,422 --> 00:17:19,022 Speaker 3: her recount that story and seeing just the guilt and 305 00:17:19,062 --> 00:17:22,382 Speaker 3: the trauma was a really tough day. 306 00:17:25,622 --> 00:17:29,462 Speaker 1: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me, Jemma Bass. 307 00:17:29,942 --> 00:17:32,942 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Luke Linderman and Adam Camian about the 308 00:17:32,982 --> 00:17:42,942 Speaker 1: Speedway murders. Well, there are a number of witnesses to 309 00:17:43,022 --> 00:17:46,422 Speaker 1: the night in question that you've spoken to. I want 310 00:17:46,422 --> 00:17:50,702 Speaker 1: to focus firstly on the two people that gave the 311 00:17:50,742 --> 00:17:55,582 Speaker 1: descriptions that ended up being widely circulated at the time. Luke, 312 00:17:55,662 --> 00:17:58,342 Speaker 1: what kind of description did they give? Who were police 313 00:17:58,382 --> 00:18:00,342 Speaker 1: and the public being told to look out for? 314 00:18:00,942 --> 00:18:04,902 Speaker 2: So there were two witnesses that were behind the dunkin 315 00:18:04,982 --> 00:18:06,622 Speaker 2: Donuts or sort of like on that there was a 316 00:18:06,662 --> 00:18:10,622 Speaker 2: train line behind and they were approached by two men 317 00:18:11,062 --> 00:18:13,662 Speaker 2: who told them to kind of move on. One of 318 00:18:13,702 --> 00:18:17,022 Speaker 2: the men was long haired with a beard, and the 319 00:18:17,062 --> 00:18:20,582 Speaker 2: other was clean shaven with shorter, blonde hair, which is 320 00:18:20,622 --> 00:18:25,222 Speaker 2: basically like describing every man in seventy. Subsequently, they then 321 00:18:25,502 --> 00:18:29,742 Speaker 2: did police sketches based on their descriptions, and then also 322 00:18:29,862 --> 00:18:33,142 Speaker 2: these really weird busts that were made out of clay, 323 00:18:33,262 --> 00:18:35,982 Speaker 2: like I think it was one of the detective's nieces 324 00:18:36,022 --> 00:18:39,742 Speaker 2: who went to art school, and they're like synonymous with 325 00:18:39,782 --> 00:18:43,422 Speaker 2: this case. They are really very freaky and out there. 326 00:18:43,702 --> 00:18:45,902 Speaker 1: I was going to say they look like an art project, 327 00:18:45,942 --> 00:18:47,382 Speaker 1: and interestingly they are. 328 00:18:48,222 --> 00:18:52,022 Speaker 3: It's worth googling for people who are listening, because it 329 00:18:52,102 --> 00:18:55,622 Speaker 3: really is quite wild that anyone would release these two 330 00:18:55,702 --> 00:18:59,102 Speaker 3: ridiculous busts to the public, and then they were put on. 331 00:18:59,182 --> 00:19:02,622 Speaker 2: Public display like in mauls for people to kind of 332 00:19:02,622 --> 00:19:06,422 Speaker 2: walk past and look at and then find those two people. 333 00:19:06,542 --> 00:19:08,582 Speaker 2: So that was quite unique. Actually, that was one of 334 00:19:08,622 --> 00:19:11,902 Speaker 2: the first things that I saw when I was researching 335 00:19:11,982 --> 00:19:13,942 Speaker 2: the case and kind of draw into it that these 336 00:19:14,142 --> 00:19:17,502 Speaker 2: busts were, you know, what was given to the public Adam. 337 00:19:17,542 --> 00:19:20,302 Speaker 1: One of the early prominent theories was that these four 338 00:19:20,342 --> 00:19:23,502 Speaker 1: became victims of a local robbery gang. Can you talk 339 00:19:23,542 --> 00:19:25,342 Speaker 1: us through who they were, what were they doing at 340 00:19:25,342 --> 00:19:25,742 Speaker 1: the time. 341 00:19:26,222 --> 00:19:29,222 Speaker 3: Yeah, this was a crew of guys from around the 342 00:19:29,302 --> 00:19:36,702 Speaker 3: Johnson County area who had been robbing KFC's other fast 343 00:19:36,742 --> 00:19:39,462 Speaker 3: food restaurants, and in particular there were a few burger 344 00:19:39,582 --> 00:19:42,742 Speaker 3: chefs that they knocked over as well. It was a 345 00:19:42,782 --> 00:19:46,262 Speaker 3: theory that came from Indiana State Police detective at a 346 00:19:46,302 --> 00:19:49,222 Speaker 3: time called Ken York, and it's a theory that some 347 00:19:49,542 --> 00:19:54,222 Speaker 3: people in law enforcement and others still believe is the answer. 348 00:19:54,782 --> 00:19:57,182 Speaker 3: I think if you knew nothing about this case and 349 00:19:57,262 --> 00:19:59,702 Speaker 3: you kind of came to the robber gang theory, which 350 00:19:59,782 --> 00:20:03,222 Speaker 3: is what we've called it in the film, it's incredibly compelling. 351 00:20:03,422 --> 00:20:07,022 Speaker 3: It's very convincing. We think that there are some holes 352 00:20:07,302 --> 00:20:10,542 Speaker 3: in it. People always say that the mo of the 353 00:20:10,582 --> 00:20:13,142 Speaker 3: robber gang coming in through the back door at closing 354 00:20:13,182 --> 00:20:16,542 Speaker 3: when somebody was taking out the trash. The reality is 355 00:20:16,982 --> 00:20:19,862 Speaker 3: nobody knows that, and yes, the back door was found 356 00:20:19,902 --> 00:20:21,982 Speaker 3: a jar, But how the kids were taken out of 357 00:20:22,022 --> 00:20:25,462 Speaker 3: the restaurant is a complete mystery. Because this is something 358 00:20:25,462 --> 00:20:27,142 Speaker 3: that we sort of try to address in the film. 359 00:20:27,422 --> 00:20:29,702 Speaker 3: The hours between about eleven thirty when we believe the 360 00:20:29,782 --> 00:20:33,862 Speaker 3: kids were taken and sort of roughly one thirty am 361 00:20:34,022 --> 00:20:36,462 Speaker 3: the next morning when shots are heard out at Johnson 362 00:20:36,502 --> 00:20:39,862 Speaker 3: County is kind of this black hole in time that 363 00:20:40,142 --> 00:20:44,422 Speaker 3: you people speculate over endlessly. And the robber gang is 364 00:20:44,462 --> 00:20:47,062 Speaker 3: one of the more convincing theories that you hear. 365 00:20:47,502 --> 00:20:51,102 Speaker 1: Luke tell me about Donald Forrester. How did he become 366 00:20:51,142 --> 00:20:52,062 Speaker 1: involved in this case? 367 00:20:52,502 --> 00:20:57,342 Speaker 2: Donald Forrester was a known bad actor in the area 368 00:20:57,382 --> 00:21:02,502 Speaker 2: who was in jail for a violent rape where he 369 00:21:02,582 --> 00:21:06,862 Speaker 2: was serving ninety five years. He came to police attention 370 00:21:07,902 --> 00:21:13,462 Speaker 2: and then subsequently confess twice, recounted twice. We played some 371 00:21:13,502 --> 00:21:18,062 Speaker 2: of the second confession in the film where it feels 372 00:21:18,142 --> 00:21:22,822 Speaker 2: like he's being led. You know, some of his answers 373 00:21:22,902 --> 00:21:26,582 Speaker 2: don't really kind of correlate with how the bots were 374 00:21:26,622 --> 00:21:30,862 Speaker 2: actually found, and you know, the talk was that, you know, 375 00:21:30,942 --> 00:21:33,902 Speaker 2: he was actually shown into the war room and kind 376 00:21:33,902 --> 00:21:36,942 Speaker 2: of got to see a lot of the crime saying 377 00:21:36,942 --> 00:21:40,622 Speaker 2: photographs before he had his confession. So in the end 378 00:21:41,782 --> 00:21:44,342 Speaker 2: recounted for the second time, and then they didn't have 379 00:21:44,462 --> 00:21:46,782 Speaker 2: enough to prosecute, so it was pretty much dropped. 380 00:21:47,182 --> 00:21:49,462 Speaker 1: But why would he want to confess to a crime 381 00:21:49,502 --> 00:21:49,942 Speaker 1: he didn't do. 382 00:21:50,342 --> 00:21:52,582 Speaker 2: He was in a pretty bad prison at the time 383 00:21:52,662 --> 00:21:55,222 Speaker 2: and wanted to be moved, and I think through the 384 00:21:55,342 --> 00:21:58,062 Speaker 2: kind of police leverage, they're going to move him into 385 00:21:58,222 --> 00:22:02,182 Speaker 2: like a nicer, cushier prison. So you know, he felt like, 386 00:22:02,622 --> 00:22:04,462 Speaker 2: you know, if he gave this confession that you know, 387 00:22:04,782 --> 00:22:05,502 Speaker 2: better treatment. 388 00:22:05,982 --> 00:22:08,582 Speaker 1: Adam, it's kind of obvious to look at the victims 389 00:22:08,622 --> 00:22:11,502 Speaker 1: themselves and see whether there's any possible links there to 390 00:22:11,542 --> 00:22:15,342 Speaker 1: see whether you know they could have enemies or anyone 391 00:22:15,342 --> 00:22:17,982 Speaker 1: potentially out to get them. What were you able to 392 00:22:18,062 --> 00:22:20,782 Speaker 1: find out about that? I understand that there was a 393 00:22:20,822 --> 00:22:24,702 Speaker 1: bit of a focus on Mark for a second, and 394 00:22:24,742 --> 00:22:27,342 Speaker 1: then a lot of focus on Jane and her family. 395 00:22:27,782 --> 00:22:33,662 Speaker 3: Both Mark and Jane had brothers who had their problems 396 00:22:33,822 --> 00:22:37,582 Speaker 3: with the law. Jane's brother in particular, who did kind 397 00:22:37,582 --> 00:22:39,862 Speaker 3: of fit the description of the bearded man. He had 398 00:22:39,862 --> 00:22:41,982 Speaker 3: a sort of shock of brown hair and a beard. 399 00:22:41,982 --> 00:22:45,902 Speaker 3: At the time, he was running with a motorcycle gang 400 00:22:45,982 --> 00:22:49,942 Speaker 3: called the Sons of Silence and ended up being arrested 401 00:22:50,142 --> 00:22:53,662 Speaker 3: for cocaine possession I think at the time, and was 402 00:22:53,702 --> 00:22:58,022 Speaker 3: associated with a lot of other bad actors, interestingly, one 403 00:22:58,062 --> 00:23:01,382 Speaker 3: of whom was Donald Forrester, we believe, So he's one 404 00:23:01,422 --> 00:23:06,062 Speaker 3: that comes up a lot because you often hear speculation 405 00:23:06,142 --> 00:23:08,502 Speaker 3: about whether drugs were being dealt out of the burger chef. 406 00:23:08,742 --> 00:23:11,742 Speaker 3: Apparently this was not an uncommon thing that they would 407 00:23:12,062 --> 00:23:15,982 Speaker 3: move small amounts of marijuana through drive up windows when 408 00:23:16,022 --> 00:23:17,782 Speaker 3: people would come to a lot of their food, So 409 00:23:17,982 --> 00:23:21,102 Speaker 3: speculation that that was happening. If it was happening, did 410 00:23:21,182 --> 00:23:24,302 Speaker 3: Jane know about it? Which kind of snowballed into it 411 00:23:24,382 --> 00:23:26,742 Speaker 3: Jane was dealing drugs and ended up in trouble because 412 00:23:26,782 --> 00:23:29,062 Speaker 3: of that. This is something that Luke and I go 413 00:23:29,102 --> 00:23:32,422 Speaker 3: back and forth on. I'm less convinced about that. I 414 00:23:32,462 --> 00:23:35,182 Speaker 3: haven't really seen any evidence that Jane was dealing drugs, 415 00:23:35,262 --> 00:23:37,742 Speaker 3: nor have I seen any evidence that Mark was dealing drugs. 416 00:23:38,182 --> 00:23:40,782 Speaker 3: So one of the things that people speculated about is, 417 00:23:40,942 --> 00:23:43,902 Speaker 3: you know, could it have been drug related but through 418 00:23:44,022 --> 00:23:47,342 Speaker 3: James's brother And you know, Charlie Gray, who was dating 419 00:23:47,422 --> 00:23:50,982 Speaker 3: Jane at the time that she died, said that, in fact, 420 00:23:51,022 --> 00:23:55,102 Speaker 3: she would have tried to protect her brother had that happened, 421 00:23:55,542 --> 00:23:57,262 Speaker 3: if it came to that, So you know, was the 422 00:23:57,342 --> 00:24:02,542 Speaker 3: debt being collected that night owed by James free Jane's brother? 423 00:24:03,022 --> 00:24:06,182 Speaker 3: You know, the other one is Mark's brother, less is 424 00:24:06,262 --> 00:24:09,142 Speaker 3: known about him, but he also had his issues and 425 00:24:09,342 --> 00:24:10,262 Speaker 3: was in and out of prison. 426 00:24:22,222 --> 00:24:26,542 Speaker 1: There was one eyewitness called Alan who gave actual names 427 00:24:26,942 --> 00:24:32,342 Speaker 1: that he says he saw that night, Jeffreed and Tim Willoughby. Adam, 428 00:24:32,382 --> 00:24:34,662 Speaker 1: Who were they? And what did Alan say that he 429 00:24:34,742 --> 00:24:35,422 Speaker 1: saw that night? 430 00:24:36,062 --> 00:24:39,542 Speaker 3: Mary and George who are the teenagers who were sitting 431 00:24:39,582 --> 00:24:42,982 Speaker 3: on the tracks. They claim to have seen these two 432 00:24:43,022 --> 00:24:46,062 Speaker 3: men that moved them on. But there's only one person 433 00:24:46,102 --> 00:24:50,022 Speaker 3: that claims to have seen anything other than that, and 434 00:24:50,062 --> 00:24:53,142 Speaker 3: that is Alan Prewitt who turns up drunk to the 435 00:24:53,222 --> 00:24:56,142 Speaker 3: dunkin Donuts with a friend, goes outside to get some 436 00:24:56,222 --> 00:24:59,102 Speaker 3: heir because he's feeling unwell, and says he sees an 437 00:24:59,142 --> 00:25:02,742 Speaker 3: orange van pull up and he recognizes two people. They 438 00:25:02,782 --> 00:25:08,062 Speaker 3: are Jeffreed and Tim Willoughby. In terms of what Alan 439 00:25:08,142 --> 00:25:11,342 Speaker 3: Prewitt saw, it depends on the day that you talk 440 00:25:11,422 --> 00:25:15,542 Speaker 3: to him. Unfortunately, he was, how should we put it, 441 00:25:15,662 --> 00:25:18,902 Speaker 3: a bit of an unreliable narrator, to the point where 442 00:25:18,982 --> 00:25:21,022 Speaker 3: in nine point eighty one he gave a statement to 443 00:25:21,182 --> 00:25:22,462 Speaker 3: Jim Kramer was a detective. 444 00:25:22,502 --> 00:25:24,342 Speaker 4: I had the case for the best part of twenty 445 00:25:24,422 --> 00:25:25,502 Speaker 4: five years, I think. 446 00:25:25,782 --> 00:25:30,422 Speaker 3: And that statement drove the investigation from the state police 447 00:25:30,462 --> 00:25:33,982 Speaker 3: for a really long time. In talking to us, so 448 00:25:34,062 --> 00:25:37,462 Speaker 3: many parts of his story fell apart, and we sort 449 00:25:37,502 --> 00:25:39,542 Speaker 3: of gave him the opportunity. We said to him, listen, 450 00:25:39,782 --> 00:25:42,422 Speaker 3: because what he claims is that he was kind of 451 00:25:42,502 --> 00:25:45,582 Speaker 3: under pressure and felt like a police were going to 452 00:25:45,582 --> 00:25:47,542 Speaker 3: pin the crime on him because he had been there. 453 00:25:47,582 --> 00:25:49,982 Speaker 3: He was also a kind of near do well. He 454 00:25:50,062 --> 00:25:53,862 Speaker 3: said that he just starts making stuff up to sort 455 00:25:53,862 --> 00:25:58,262 Speaker 3: of divert their attention somewhere else. So, you know, in 456 00:25:58,302 --> 00:26:01,022 Speaker 3: our conversations with him, he ends up walking back almost 457 00:26:01,142 --> 00:26:03,822 Speaker 3: all of what he said in that nineteen eighty one statement, 458 00:26:04,422 --> 00:26:08,142 Speaker 3: but he maintains and I think in the film he says, 459 00:26:08,142 --> 00:26:10,782 Speaker 3: and I will take this to the grave that he 460 00:26:10,822 --> 00:26:14,382 Speaker 3: saw that Van and Jeffreed and Tim Willoby, and that's 461 00:26:14,382 --> 00:26:17,862 Speaker 3: something that he never walked back. So Jeff Freed and 462 00:26:17,862 --> 00:26:21,062 Speaker 3: Tim Willerby were We probably need a separate interview to 463 00:26:21,062 --> 00:26:24,822 Speaker 3: talk about Tim Willerby because that's a crazy story. Local 464 00:26:24,862 --> 00:26:29,702 Speaker 3: bad actor involved with chop shops. Jeffreed was a local 465 00:26:30,102 --> 00:26:33,102 Speaker 3: character who was known as the Mayor of the Snake Pit, 466 00:26:33,142 --> 00:26:35,662 Speaker 3: which was sort of a turn speedway's name for the 467 00:26:35,702 --> 00:26:39,102 Speaker 3: Indianapolis five hundred race and there's a turn on the 468 00:26:39,182 --> 00:26:41,382 Speaker 3: racetrack that in the month of May is like a 469 00:26:41,462 --> 00:26:43,982 Speaker 3: kind of party place, and that's called the Snake Pit. 470 00:26:44,022 --> 00:26:46,542 Speaker 3: And Jeffreed was the mayor of the Snake Pit. He 471 00:26:46,622 --> 00:26:48,302 Speaker 3: was known as a guy who could be violent. He 472 00:26:48,382 --> 00:26:50,702 Speaker 3: was known as a guy who would collect debts. 473 00:26:51,102 --> 00:26:53,022 Speaker 1: I know you say that Alan might not be the 474 00:26:53,022 --> 00:26:56,262 Speaker 1: most credible witness, but he's not the only person that 475 00:26:56,382 --> 00:26:59,302 Speaker 1: mentions Jeff. And this is potentially the biggest bombshell from 476 00:26:59,382 --> 00:27:03,622 Speaker 1: your documentary. You have a mate of Jeff's who told 477 00:27:03,622 --> 00:27:08,862 Speaker 1: you something quite remarkable. Tell me about what Tim told you. 478 00:27:09,462 --> 00:27:13,742 Speaker 2: So Tim dropped a bombshell that Jeff came to him 479 00:27:14,222 --> 00:27:17,782 Speaker 2: and had somewhat of a confession that he wanted to 480 00:27:17,782 --> 00:27:21,262 Speaker 2: get off his chest. That you know, he was there 481 00:27:21,342 --> 00:27:25,982 Speaker 2: that night and subsequently things got out of hand and 482 00:27:27,182 --> 00:27:32,022 Speaker 2: he was forced to handle a situation and pretty much 483 00:27:33,062 --> 00:27:36,782 Speaker 2: confessed details of what happened that night. 484 00:27:37,302 --> 00:27:40,182 Speaker 1: So he knew kind of what happened to those kids. 485 00:27:40,622 --> 00:27:44,062 Speaker 2: Yeah, so he was there and was partly responsible and 486 00:27:44,742 --> 00:27:46,542 Speaker 2: felt like he needed to get it off his chest 487 00:27:46,582 --> 00:27:51,022 Speaker 2: to his very good friend Tim and dropped this bombshell 488 00:27:51,062 --> 00:27:51,942 Speaker 2: of a story on him. 489 00:27:52,422 --> 00:27:55,422 Speaker 1: So why had Tim never gone to police with this information? 490 00:27:55,822 --> 00:27:58,982 Speaker 2: I mean, he claims that the police never came to him. 491 00:27:59,062 --> 00:28:02,262 Speaker 2: He's never seen the police. The police were never interested. 492 00:28:02,822 --> 00:28:06,542 Speaker 2: After we filmed this segment, we took him down to 493 00:28:06,622 --> 00:28:09,782 Speaker 2: the prosecutor's office and dropped him off and basically waited 494 00:28:09,782 --> 00:28:13,382 Speaker 2: for him to go and tell his story. So we 495 00:28:13,702 --> 00:28:17,062 Speaker 2: had done everything that we could to give everything over 496 00:28:17,142 --> 00:28:19,702 Speaker 2: to the place that we had, including Tim and his 497 00:28:19,782 --> 00:28:21,022 Speaker 2: bombshell story. 498 00:28:21,422 --> 00:28:24,222 Speaker 1: It's one thing to want to tell a story like 499 00:28:24,262 --> 00:28:27,022 Speaker 1: you guys did. You're making a film about an unsolved case. 500 00:28:27,102 --> 00:28:30,022 Speaker 1: But to get information like this that is brand new, 501 00:28:30,342 --> 00:28:33,502 Speaker 1: that hasn't been heard by police or anyone. How did 502 00:28:33,582 --> 00:28:36,262 Speaker 1: it feel for you in that moment to actually hear 503 00:28:36,342 --> 00:28:37,102 Speaker 1: something like this? 504 00:28:37,742 --> 00:28:40,382 Speaker 4: It was exhilarating, if I'm honest. 505 00:28:40,702 --> 00:28:43,862 Speaker 3: It's a real emotional rollercoaster when you're so invested in 506 00:28:43,902 --> 00:28:46,502 Speaker 3: something like this. Sometimes it's maddening because you keep coming 507 00:28:46,582 --> 00:28:50,902 Speaker 3: up against dead ends were otherwise hopeful. Some days are 508 00:28:50,942 --> 00:28:52,462 Speaker 3: the days where you get to speak to someone like 509 00:28:52,502 --> 00:28:55,822 Speaker 3: a Tim Boyer, And I remember I had gotten on 510 00:28:55,902 --> 00:28:59,462 Speaker 3: to him and he didn't reveal everything to me on 511 00:28:59,502 --> 00:29:01,782 Speaker 3: the phone because he was pretty adamant that he wanted 512 00:29:01,822 --> 00:29:04,662 Speaker 3: to talk to us face to face to give us 513 00:29:04,702 --> 00:29:07,862 Speaker 3: the whole story, but he gave me enough information over 514 00:29:07,902 --> 00:29:10,742 Speaker 3: the phone that I remember getting off the phone. You 515 00:29:10,742 --> 00:29:13,022 Speaker 3: know it's two am because of the time difference in 516 00:29:13,102 --> 00:29:15,662 Speaker 3: calling Luke and saying, hey, I think I know what happened. 517 00:29:16,182 --> 00:29:18,182 Speaker 4: So you know, that was pretty special. 518 00:29:18,622 --> 00:29:21,302 Speaker 1: So where does that leave us in terms of an investigation? 519 00:29:21,462 --> 00:29:24,342 Speaker 1: Are police still looking into this? Is it currently still cold? 520 00:29:24,982 --> 00:29:28,822 Speaker 3: The reason that this case is still unsolved, it's partly 521 00:29:28,822 --> 00:29:32,302 Speaker 3: because the police watched the investigation early on, but there's 522 00:29:32,302 --> 00:29:37,262 Speaker 3: also very very little physical evidence, which makes it extremely challenging. 523 00:29:37,262 --> 00:29:39,782 Speaker 3: We know they have tested DNA in the past what 524 00:29:39,822 --> 00:29:42,742 Speaker 3: little DNA they did have, and we know that they're 525 00:29:42,782 --> 00:29:46,342 Speaker 3: sort of preserving some other DNA in the hope that 526 00:29:46,382 --> 00:29:49,582 Speaker 3: technology improves, because when you test a DNA sample often 527 00:29:49,902 --> 00:29:52,942 Speaker 3: you destroy that sample, so that don't want to shoot 528 00:29:52,942 --> 00:29:53,822 Speaker 3: their shot right now. 529 00:29:54,342 --> 00:29:59,662 Speaker 4: But there's very very little physical evidence, which makes closing 530 00:29:59,702 --> 00:30:00,942 Speaker 4: the case challenging. 531 00:30:01,422 --> 00:30:03,342 Speaker 1: What do you think the families hope they're going to 532 00:30:03,342 --> 00:30:06,022 Speaker 1: get from sharing their stories with you and from having 533 00:30:06,262 --> 00:30:10,062 Speaker 1: this crime retold on such a big platform. Do you 534 00:30:10,102 --> 00:30:13,102 Speaker 1: think that they're hopeful that that slim chance of actually 535 00:30:13,102 --> 00:30:17,022 Speaker 1: getting a conviction or justice in any way is still 536 00:30:17,062 --> 00:30:18,942 Speaker 1: what they're kind of leaning towards. 537 00:30:19,342 --> 00:30:21,542 Speaker 3: They want answers, they want to know, you know, they're 538 00:30:21,542 --> 00:30:24,902 Speaker 3: not knowing is the hardest part. People often sort of 539 00:30:24,902 --> 00:30:28,502 Speaker 3: throw around the word closure. I think when you lose 540 00:30:28,502 --> 00:30:31,462 Speaker 3: a loved one in a fashion as brutal as this, 541 00:30:31,622 --> 00:30:34,702 Speaker 3: there's probably not ever really closure. But I think for 542 00:30:34,822 --> 00:30:39,742 Speaker 3: some peace of mind, knowing what happened in their final 543 00:30:39,822 --> 00:30:42,822 Speaker 3: moments would help. I think that's what they're desperate for. 544 00:30:43,142 --> 00:30:46,222 Speaker 3: So our great hope in doing this, and really it's 545 00:30:46,382 --> 00:30:49,262 Speaker 3: kind of been one of the driving factors is that 546 00:30:49,502 --> 00:30:55,022 Speaker 3: someone sitting somewhere will see this and call authorities and 547 00:30:55,142 --> 00:30:56,942 Speaker 3: it'll be a tip that breaks the case open. 548 00:31:01,782 --> 00:31:04,422 Speaker 1: Thanks to Luke Rinderman and Adam camee In for assisting 549 00:31:04,502 --> 00:31:07,702 Speaker 1: us to tell this story. True Crime Conversations is a 550 00:31:07,782 --> 00:31:11,622 Speaker 1: Mumaier podcast hosted and produced by me above. Thanks so 551 00:31:11,702 --> 00:31:14,342 Speaker 1: much for listening. I'll be back next week with another 552 00:31:14,342 --> 00:31:15,422 Speaker 1: true Crime Conversation