WEBVTT - What First Nations People Know About Wellbeing That We Don't 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.520 I think young people are having to navigate a more 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:11.200 racially charged environment than potentially my generation had to. I 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:13.960 think we've made real progress, and all of a sudden 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:18.120 we've come to things like the referendum and we seem 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:21.360 to have stepped backwards as a nation, particularly in terms 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:23.200 of what we're exposed to through media. 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:25.240 So while I don't. 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:27.760 Actually believe that we have more people who are racist 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:30.840 in Australia than we've ever had before, what I do 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:42.559 feel we have is more exposure to events of racism. 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:45.040 Hi, I'm a shiny Dante and this is but are 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:49.320 you happy? In this episode, we're joined by Associate Professor 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:53.720 Clinton Shules, director of First Nation Strategy at the Black 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:58.120 Dog Institute. Clinton is a Gamill roy Man, a registered 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:03.639 psychologist and a leading voice in Indigenous mental health. This 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:08.640 week is natof Week, Australia's national celebration of Aboriginal and 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:14.160 tourist Strait Islander peoples, their history, cultures and achievements. It 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.759 felt important for us to take this moment to have 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.840 a deeper conversation about First Nations mental health and to 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:25.360 better understand how everyday racism and systemic bias can impact 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:30.280 wellbeing for Aboriginal and tourist Straight Islander people. In this conversation, 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.440 we explore the importance of culturally safe, community led approaches 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.680 to care and what it means to support well being 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.320 in ways that are respectful and grounded in lived experience. 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.800 We also talk about how listeners, both First Nation and 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.360 non Indigenous, can play a role in reducing harm in 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:52.400 their own communities. Before we begin, we want to thank 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.840 Clinton for sharing his knowledge and experiences with us. We 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:58.720 acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:02.440 recorded this podcast, and pay our respects to elders past 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:07.120 and present. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much, Clinton 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:11.720 for joining us on today's episode. I also want to 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.040 say something that I don't usually say at the beginning 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.000 when I have a guess that comes on. And I 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.480 also just want to say thank you for the work 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:22.000 that you do as well. I feel like it's really 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.120 really needed. I don't know why I'm getting emotional at 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.520 the beginning of this, but here we are. Yeah, just 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:31.520 like it means, it's amazing just what you do, and 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:34.360 it actually gets me thinking a lot about Wow, it 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:37.639 takes a certain person to do the work that you do, 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.600 and what I'm actually curious about is to hear more 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:43.120 about your story, you know, like, what is it that 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:45.200 what was your upbringing? 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:51.360 Like, yeah, Yamagabiyada and gabnindos Hi and yeah, thank you. You know, 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.720 it means a lot to know that there's people out 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.000 there that to recognize the importance of, you know, the 0:02:58.040 --> 0:02:59.920 work that so many of us are trying to do 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:04.960 in the social motion wellbeing space at present, particularly given 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:10.160 the tough times that we seem to be continually trying 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:13.680 to navigate. So I really do appreciate that. Yeah, my 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:18.400 story is pretty interesting, particularly how I ended up in 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.920 this field of psychology and the broader sociomotion of wellbeing space. 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:23.320 You know, I. 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:27.280 Guess I'll start all the way back in my childhood 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.480 because it really stems from there, and you know, I 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.000 kind of I experienced a lot of abuse from when 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:35.520 I was about the ages of five to fifteen, and 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.720 I probably didn't cope with that abuse in the most 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:42.520 positive ways, and I guess I was recognized as as 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.520 a delinquent, you know, by the time I was a teenager, 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:48.000 and then by the time I was sort of fifteen, 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.280 and definitely by sixteen, you know, I was CouchSurfing and 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.560 had left home and had basically turned to drugs and 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:59.640 alcohol as a way of trying to navigate the experiences 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.320 of trying that I'd had, And it took me a 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.160 really long time to figure out that all that was 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:09.720 doing was creating further trauma, both for myself and those 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.040 that actually did care about me and did love me. 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.480 So it was a long learning journey, but in that 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:19.120 space of time, I guess both fortunate and unfortunate at 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:19.760 the same time. 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:21.239 It was a bit of a double edged sword. 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:24.919 I was extremely high functioning throughout that whole period, so 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:30.560 I still managed to do high school by correspondence, to 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:33.440 complete a chef's apprenticeship, to work in some of the 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:35.680 best restaurants both here in Australia and then to move 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:40.080 overseas and to work in some really well known restaurants 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:42.680 in the UK and other parts of Europe as well. 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:45.360 And it was in that period while I was overseas 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:47.360 that I really started to reflect on what I wanted 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.839 to do when I came home. I made a decision 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.640 that I definitely didn't want to continue in the hospitality issue, 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.160 in the hospitality sort of space, and that a lot 0:04:56.160 --> 0:05:00.320 of the issues that I was continuing with were being 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.960 driven by hospitality and the pressures of that space and 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:06.440 the habits of that space. So I knew I wanted 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:09.520 to disconnect myself from that lifestyle and do something different, 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.480 but I really didn't know what or how. But I'd 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.360 started to write up, I guess a bunch of programs 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:19.040 that I thought would be beneficial to other young people 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.479 that may have gone through similar things to me, similar 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:27.160 life experiences and maybe turned to similar negative coping strategies 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.840 in that period, and thought, there must be a way 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.880 that we can help young people to just stay passionate 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.840 and connected to the things that they really love. And 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:40.599 as a young Aboriginal person, unless you were good at sport, 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.160 there wasn't many opportunities for you when I was a 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:46.960 young fella. So you know, if you played football or 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.320 you could run fast, then yeah, you probably had a 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:51.120 few avenues in front of you to at least help 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:55.400 you through high school and maybe into a professional sort 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:56.719 of sport career post that. 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:58.080 But if you were into the. 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:01.960 Arts, or if you're into academia or anything else really 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.320 outside of sport, your options were limited. So I really 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:07.000 wanted to be able to come back and help young 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:10.720 people to stay connected to and maintain that passion they 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:12.520 had with whatever it was that they were. 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:13.719 Good at and that they cared about. 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.240 And I came back to Australia and I started hitting 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:20.240 up some large organizations with these programs that I'd written up, 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:22.920 and I got really positive feedback. 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:24.760 It was like, these programs are great. 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:27.800 But what's your qualification? 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:31.520 And every time I'd say, well, mate, I'm a chef. 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:34.680 And they basically just go, well, what the hell has 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.039 that got to do with these programs that you've brought 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.800 us and presented. And I'd say, well, nothing, but I've 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.000 got a lot of lived experience, you know, I've been 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.680 one of these kids and I've managed to make a 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:47.960 go of it for myself in the chefing space, and 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.080 I think I've got something to offer. And they all 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:53.440 just said, yeah, that's great, but come back when you've 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:58.480 got a qualification saying that you are capable of doing this. 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.280 Okay then, And I took myself off to Griffith University 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.680 and went into the Aberage on to on a student 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:09.000 support center there, and I went and met with a 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:12.000 couple of arnies there and I just was like this 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.120 is kind of what I want to do, what do 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:16.520 I need to study? And they just started writing out 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:18.800 all these different programs on a piece of paper, and 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.120 it just started to confuse me, to be honest, so 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:23.880 I kind of just looked at the piece of paper, 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.720 started swirling my finger and I just threw it down 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:30.360 on something and here I am. I ended up in 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.800 psychology and saw that through and yeah, the rest is 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:38.360 gone to continued history From there, I did my honors 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:41.800 with Griffith University, completed my PhD. At Griffith University. I 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:44.560 worked in the space of aberage on to show on 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:46.920 a social most well being as an academic and as 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.280 a practitioner for the last two decades. 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.320 Now, Wow, that's incredible, and it's really amazing because like 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.880 what I'm hearing in it as well is that I 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.000 feel like some of the greatest people is their ability 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.600 to be able to turn pain into their purpose. And 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.360 that's what I'm kind of hearing in your story as well, 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.920 which is really beautiful, and also just recognizing the hardships 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:08.520 that you went through as well, so really honoring you 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:09.679 on your journey as well. 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:11.520 Yeah, thank you. 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:13.840 Know. I was fortunate enough to have the right people 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:15.640 at the right times to help me get through that. 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:18.640 And so that's something I'm really passionate about today is 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:22.920 being able to hopefully be that person for others help 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.840 them to see a different path. And you know, that's 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:28.960 required me to make some big changes in my life. 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:31.200 So you know, I had to. I had to reflect 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:33.439 on that period and go, well, the drug and alcohol 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:35.559 abuse that may have been helping me to run from 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.440 the trauma wasn't actually helping with it, and so I 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.120 didn't want my children to sort of learn those same habits. 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:44.200 And we live on the Gold Coast that most people 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.480 recognize as party central, and so I had to make 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:49.600 an active decision that if they were going to have 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:52.160 the opportunity to learn something different, the only way to 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:54.920 sort of bring that about was for me to create 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.160 it in our own chaos and sort of start from there. So, yeah, 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.760 the last thirteen years been sort of straight and sober 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.400 and trying to do my best to deal with my 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:05.640 traumas in more positive ways. 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:09.400 Yeah, congratulations. It's amazing as well, because I think you 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:12.360 spoke to you mentioned the right people at the right time. 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.120 And what I'm curious about as well is like, how 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.839 has culture and community helped to reclaim and strengthen your 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.520 identity since then, because it sounds as you said, it 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:23.000 was this long journey for you. 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:26.360 Yeah, culture has been the main thing to keep me 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:28.320 on track and to get me back on track in 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.160 you know, anything that I've tried to achieve, and particularly 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:32.920 the last fifteen. 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:33.319 Years of my life. 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.760 It's you know, we've had such strong fundamentals as Aboriginal 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.800 peoples for we'd say since a double of Bitu. We 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.960 so the beginning of time on how to be in 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:47.400 a good relationship with ourself other in place across time, 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:52.080 and we've tended to sort of sway away from those 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:54.680 a little bit, and we you know, colonization has done 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:56.480 a good job of trying to push us away from 0:09:56.480 --> 0:10:00.000 those at times. But I think we're in a time 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.560 now where we've got this wonderful opportunity to be able 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.800 to reconnect, relearn, reconnect and to look at how do 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:09.880 we use those old principles that kept us well for 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:13.000 so long, and how do we use those in today's 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:17.040 systems and societies to keep us strong and deadly moving forward. 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:20.600 Yeah. Absolutely, And it's actually really interesting like hearing more 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:22.680 about the things that you're doing in the present day 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.559 moment or what you believe is missing. You know, you're 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:29.040 the director of the first Nations Strategy Black Dog Institute, 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:31.720 which is incredible. Love to hear more about the work 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:32.760 that you do there as well. 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:36.760 Yeah, so I'm really fortunate to have the job that 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:38.280 I do and to be able to work with such 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.960 a wonderful organization like the Black Dog Institute. The people 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:46.200 and the passion there is just palpable. You know, people 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:49.080 are there because they care about what they do. We're 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.560 not the highest paying workplace on the planet, but you know, 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:55.760 we're driven by passion and I think that's one of 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:59.240 the magical ingredients that we've actually got. And we've got 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:02.600 some wonderful mind we've got some wonderful skills, we've got 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.320 some wonderful lived experience knowledges as well that I think, 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.559 when all brought together, allow us to really look at 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:13.600 how do we use research to make change. So we're 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.280 really passionate about ensuring that we're not just doing research 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:18.920 for research purposes in this mental health and broader social 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:23.040 motion wellbeing space, that we're doing research for a purpose, 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.160 that our translation work is just as important as our 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.439 research work. So nothing is just piece of paper sitting 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:31.920 on a shelf and gathering dust that in some shape 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:34.280 or form, everything that we're doing from our research is 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:38.559 translatable and implementable back into communities and trying to bring 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.719 around change. So yeah, my little space within there is 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:46.280 obviously is the director of First Nation Strategy. And so 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:48.760 we've got kind of two arms that we do. We've 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:50.760 got our research arm and then we've got how do 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:54.760 we turn that into something useful our translation arm. I've 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:56.840 got a great team around me. They make me look 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.640 really intelligent, really capable, far more than i'dea claim to 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:03.920 be myself, which is awesome. And I've got full trust 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.720 in them to do the work that they need to do. 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:10.040 So we work really well, and I hope that that's 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:13.240 a really good guide for others within our organization about 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.200 how you can use those elements of trust and empowerment 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:21.000 to really have strong and purposeful and productive teams. 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:26.000 Beautiful, there was something you were saying before around fundamentals, 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.760 and I actually have heard you speak on a previous 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:34.240 interview around how Aboriginal psychology is actually very different to 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.800 Western psychology. Would love to hear more about that because 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:39.120 I find that really fascinating. 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.280 Yeah, there's massive differences between I guess, Western reflections of 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:48.679 psychology and in this case, Abriiginal people's I guess, understandings 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:53.080 of a broader notion of social and emotional wellbeing. Why 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:55.200 I say in this case is because I actually think 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.959 this is a human perspective. I don't actually see it 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.720 as a pure aboriginal terro show one. I think it's 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.040 just a perspective that more fits for human beings who 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:11.080 are being, whereas psychology at times doesn't necessarily look at 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.120 all the other facets that make us what we are 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:17.680 as beings. So you know, everything for us is aboriginal. 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:22.040 Torrestraint of people's is based around relationships, and that's those 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:24.720 relationships that we first and foremost have with ourselves that 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.080 allows us to then have relationship with other and other 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.200 can be people that can be placed, it can be 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.720 the cosmos, it can actually be the words that we speak. 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.920 So there is a relationship built into everything, which then 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.800 helps us to understand what is my role and responsibility, 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:44.199 what are the obligations reciprocal that exist within those relationships. 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:50.560 So there's a higher call I guess, to being mindful 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.960 about the impacts of what you choose to create through 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:57.280 those processes. And I think that's a really beautiful way 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.640 to start reflecting on how we can get along better 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.160 with both ourselves but then with others and everything else 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:05.719 around us. So some of the elements that are really 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:07.840 important to us and are well documented are things like 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:12.280 connection to culture, connection to country, connection to environment nature 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.120 as well for those that may not necessarily know country 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.880 because the things that have happened, and connection to our ancestors. 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.480 To be honest, you know, we again some of the 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.400 things that hold us well in who we are and 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.160 in our overall well being, and things that psychology would 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:32.720 suggest are unreal or not present. You know, I'm well 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:34.760 documented for telling people that I spend a lot of 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.720 my time talking to dead people in trees. If I 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.240 walked into most psychology practices and said I spent a 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:42.640 lot of my spare time talking to dead people and trees, 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:44.720 they'd probably want to send me off to a psychiatrist 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.560 and have me medicate it, rather than seeing that as 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.800 a fundamental piece of my well being. 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.000 Wow, that is so true. And if I mean I 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.120 love that you do that, I love talking to trees. 0:14:57.560 --> 0:14:59.480 I mean I love connecting to nature. And it's so 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:02.520 funny because I find it so refreshing, yet it is 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:05.400 so important, like we've lost touch of the things that 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:07.960 are so important. So I think it's really great that 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.040 you're really paving the way in a way which is 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:12.920 sad because it should be a way that you need 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:14.120 to pave in the first place. 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:16.280 Yeah, one hundred percent agree. And you know, some of 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.080 the best lessons I'd've had in my life have just 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.480 come from things in nature that most people spend their 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:22.960 days just walking past or would never bother to spend 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:25.200 the time to and allow themselves to learn from. I 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.160 think you know, at times, as human beings, and particularly 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.440 within Western societies, we've allowed ego to get in the 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.440 way of us actually seeing ourselves as part of We 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:36.640 see ourselves as more than and that's led to this 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.280 disconnect and our inability to really allow ourselves to learn 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:44.240 from from the everyday lessons that exist around us in nature. 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:47.480 So true. And I actually have heard you talk about 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:52.440 this previously around how psyche what actually? What does psyche 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:54.760 actually mean? And I found that so interesting and I 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.080 really want you to tell our listeners because I thought 0:15:57.120 --> 0:15:57.800 that was amazing. 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:00.840 Yeah, if we really take it back to Latin. You know, 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:03.560 when we're talking about psyche, we're actually talking about the spirit, 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:06.680 where we're not actually talking about the mind. So the 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.680 field of psychology and its essence should be about maintaining 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:16.960 the spirit rather than fixing mental ill health or maintaining 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.160 mental health. So that's I guess the reflection that I 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.120 use and the work we do. And it's a common 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.800 sort of understanding or theme amongst average on torres straight 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.800 on to people, you'll more commonly hear us talking about 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.680 having a broken spirit than you will us talking about 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:33.120 feeling mentally unwelled. 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.520 Yeah, that's so true. So what do you think mainstream 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.080 mental health systems still misunderstand most? 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:41.560 Then? 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.000 I think the biggest divide that we actually have, and 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.440 it's not just in the mental health space, it's in 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:52.440 I guess, the societal different space, and that's that we 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.480 live in one of the most individualized nations in the world, 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.000 being Australia. We're ranked as the second most individualius nation 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:01.120 in the world. People can look that up on the 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:06.080 Hofsteed website. We have been there for several decades. We're 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:08.360 about third, and then we bumped up to second more 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:12.720 recently and then, so we've got a whole bunch of 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:16.879 people living in Australia who function through a very individualistic 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.800 lens of how to be, and we have a whole 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.399 bunch of systems that have been created through that lens. 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.199 So that has inherently led to a whole bunch of 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:31.040 epistemic discrimination existing in our systems that impact on people 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.639 who come from collective as based societies. And we're in 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.720 a situation in Australia where we have all these Aboriginal 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:41.159 to Shade Islanders societies here groups within Australia who we 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.000 all come from some of the most collective based societies 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:49.920 known globally. So there's an inherent conflict just in that 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.120 that I think as an Australian nation we're still struggling 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:57.600 to sort of overcome. And I think we're another space 0:17:57.640 --> 0:17:59.520 that we're getting better at. But I think we've got 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:01.879 a history of working in the space of ill health 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:05.439 rather than allowing ourselves to work in the space of 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.560 health and well being, and there's a corporatization that's kind 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.920 of happened around that. But I think we are improving 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.200 in that and it's great to see. 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:18.880 And when you mean by there's a corporatization around that. 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:21.200 Can you share more about that? What do you mean 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:21.439 by that? 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:26.480 Yeah, So, if I really reflect on situations within developed 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.840 countries and you look at the things that are really 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:32.640 driving our ill health and despair, they're things that we 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.919 generally accept as being normal parts of our life. So 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.199 we create these situations where people have better access to 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:43.080 unhealthy food than they do healthy food. We create situations 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:47.000 where people put in positions where both parents have to 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.800 work full time from when their children are really young, 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:54.200 which creates situations of disconnect between children and older people 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.840 and other generations. We have at the other end of 0:18:56.880 --> 0:19:00.520 that scale, we have an aged care system leads to 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.240 disconnect between young people and old people so that generational 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:09.280 learning's not occurring. There are things that actually, you know, 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.920 have been monetized and in their own shape or form, 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.200 you know, they add to the distress that is being 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:22.200 experienced by people within society today. And if we flip 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.399 that all around, then if we really cared about health 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:27.960 and well being, then we'd be looking at how do 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:34.440 we increase the the opportunities people have to remain connected 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:36.440 to the things that we know keep them well. How 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:38.399 do we make sure that people have the opportunities to 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:41.600 maintain connections to their family. How do we help increase 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:44.760 the opportunities that people have the opportunity to form a 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.560 strong sense of positive identity as connected to a place 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:52.720 and the others within that place. Yeah, and I just 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:53.960 don't think we've got there yet. 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.440 More of my conversation with Clinton after this short break. 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.080 You were talking a bit before around discrimination and essentially 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.480 when two ways of being can come into conflict when 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:09.080 we talk about racism, what kinds of harms are most 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:11.520 often missed in public conversations. 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:14.960 Yeah, I think when we're having these discussions around racism 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:17.560 and discrimination, we need to be prepared to really take 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:22.760 it back to that form of racism that lies within epistemic. 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:28.840 So epistemic discrimination is the discrimination that simply exists within thought. 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:32.520 So whose thought led to the systems? Whose thought led 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.199 to what we create as such? And so in an 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:40.359 Australian society, you know, we've had one over overarching influence 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:45.280 that has led to a whole bunch of policies, procedures, systems, 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:50.840 et cetera, et cetera that haven't necessarily been inclusive. And 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:52.720 so that's meant that there's a whole bunch of people 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:56.000 that they don't necessarily work for. So I think that's 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:57.760 where we need to start. We need to really step 0:20:57.800 --> 0:20:59.840 it back and go, you know, what we see out 0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:02.199 on the football field, or what we see in the 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:04.800 school yard, or what we see in the workplace is 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:10.880 in itself inherently a product of what was created back here. 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:12.840 So we need to be prepared to look at, well, 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:16.480 how do we allow new thought in that can help 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:20.439 to then shift systems. And for me, that's about us 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.040 embracing first nations knowledges. 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:25.480 You know, we're the oldest. 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:33.200 Practitioners, environmentalists, business people, artists, whatever you want to reflect 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:36.359