Speaker 1: I think young people are having to navigate a more
Speaker 1: racially charged environment than potentially my generation had to. I
Speaker 1: think we've made real progress, and all of a sudden
Speaker 1: we've come to things like the referendum and we seem
Speaker 1: to have stepped backwards as a nation, particularly in terms
Speaker 1: of what we're exposed to through media.
Speaker 2: So while I don't.
Speaker 1: Actually believe that we have more people who are racist
Speaker 1: in Australia than we've ever had before, what I do
Speaker 1: feel we have is more exposure to events of racism.
Speaker 3: Hi, I'm a shiny Dante and this is but are
Speaker 3: you happy? In this episode, we're joined by Associate Professor
Speaker 3: Clinton Shules, director of First Nation Strategy at the Black
Speaker 3: Dog Institute. Clinton is a Gamill roy Man, a registered
Speaker 3: psychologist and a leading voice in Indigenous mental health. This
Speaker 3: week is natof Week, Australia's national celebration of Aboriginal and
Speaker 3: tourist Strait Islander peoples, their history, cultures and achievements. It
Speaker 3: felt important for us to take this moment to have
Speaker 3: a deeper conversation about First Nations mental health and to
Speaker 3: better understand how everyday racism and systemic bias can impact
Speaker 3: wellbeing for Aboriginal and tourist Straight Islander people. In this conversation,
Speaker 3: we explore the importance of culturally safe, community led approaches
Speaker 3: to care and what it means to support well being
Speaker 3: in ways that are respectful and grounded in lived experience.
Speaker 3: We also talk about how listeners, both First Nation and
Speaker 3: non Indigenous, can play a role in reducing harm in
Speaker 3: their own communities. Before we begin, we want to thank
Speaker 3: Clinton for sharing his knowledge and experiences with us. We
Speaker 3: acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we
Speaker 3: recorded this podcast, and pay our respects to elders past
Speaker 3: and present. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much, Clinton
Speaker 3: for joining us on today's episode. I also want to
Speaker 3: say something that I don't usually say at the beginning
Speaker 3: when I have a guess that comes on. And I
Speaker 3: also just want to say thank you for the work
Speaker 3: that you do as well. I feel like it's really
Speaker 3: really needed. I don't know why I'm getting emotional at
Speaker 3: the beginning of this, but here we are. Yeah, just
Speaker 3: like it means, it's amazing just what you do, and
Speaker 3: it actually gets me thinking a lot about Wow, it
Speaker 3: takes a certain person to do the work that you do,
Speaker 3: and what I'm actually curious about is to hear more
Speaker 3: about your story, you know, like, what is it that
Speaker 3: what was your upbringing?
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, Yamagabiyada and gabnindos Hi and yeah, thank you. You know,
Speaker 1: it means a lot to know that there's people out
Speaker 1: there that to recognize the importance of, you know, the
Speaker 1: work that so many of us are trying to do
Speaker 1: in the social motion wellbeing space at present, particularly given
Speaker 1: the tough times that we seem to be continually trying
Speaker 1: to navigate. So I really do appreciate that. Yeah, my
Speaker 1: story is pretty interesting, particularly how I ended up in
Speaker 1: this field of psychology and the broader sociomotion of wellbeing space.
Speaker 2: You know, I.
Speaker 1: Guess I'll start all the way back in my childhood
Speaker 1: because it really stems from there, and you know, I
Speaker 1: kind of I experienced a lot of abuse from when
Speaker 1: I was about the ages of five to fifteen, and
Speaker 1: I probably didn't cope with that abuse in the most
Speaker 1: positive ways, and I guess I was recognized as as
Speaker 1: a delinquent, you know, by the time I was a teenager,
Speaker 1: and then by the time I was sort of fifteen,
Speaker 1: and definitely by sixteen, you know, I was CouchSurfing and
Speaker 1: had left home and had basically turned to drugs and
Speaker 1: alcohol as a way of trying to navigate the experiences
Speaker 1: of trying that I'd had, And it took me a
Speaker 1: really long time to figure out that all that was
Speaker 1: doing was creating further trauma, both for myself and those
Speaker 1: that actually did care about me and did love me.
Speaker 1: So it was a long learning journey, but in that
Speaker 1: space of time, I guess both fortunate and unfortunate at
Speaker 1: the same time.
Speaker 2: It was a bit of a double edged sword.
Speaker 1: I was extremely high functioning throughout that whole period, so
Speaker 1: I still managed to do high school by correspondence, to
Speaker 1: complete a chef's apprenticeship, to work in some of the
Speaker 1: best restaurants both here in Australia and then to move
Speaker 1: overseas and to work in some really well known restaurants
Speaker 1: in the UK and other parts of Europe as well.
Speaker 1: And it was in that period while I was overseas
Speaker 1: that I really started to reflect on what I wanted
Speaker 1: to do when I came home. I made a decision
Speaker 1: that I definitely didn't want to continue in the hospitality issue,
Speaker 1: in the hospitality sort of space, and that a lot
Speaker 1: of the issues that I was continuing with were being
Speaker 1: driven by hospitality and the pressures of that space and
Speaker 1: the habits of that space. So I knew I wanted
Speaker 1: to disconnect myself from that lifestyle and do something different,
Speaker 1: but I really didn't know what or how. But I'd
Speaker 1: started to write up, I guess a bunch of programs
Speaker 1: that I thought would be beneficial to other young people
Speaker 1: that may have gone through similar things to me, similar
Speaker 1: life experiences and maybe turned to similar negative coping strategies
Speaker 1: in that period, and thought, there must be a way
Speaker 1: that we can help young people to just stay passionate
Speaker 1: and connected to the things that they really love. And
Speaker 1: as a young Aboriginal person, unless you were good at sport,
Speaker 1: there wasn't many opportunities for you when I was a
Speaker 1: young fella. So you know, if you played football or
Speaker 1: you could run fast, then yeah, you probably had a
Speaker 1: few avenues in front of you to at least help
Speaker 1: you through high school and maybe into a professional sort
Speaker 1: of sport career post that.
Speaker 2: But if you were into the.
Speaker 1: Arts, or if you're into academia or anything else really
Speaker 1: outside of sport, your options were limited. So I really
Speaker 1: wanted to be able to come back and help young
Speaker 1: people to stay connected to and maintain that passion they
Speaker 1: had with whatever it was that they were.
Speaker 2: Good at and that they cared about.
Speaker 1: And I came back to Australia and I started hitting
Speaker 1: up some large organizations with these programs that I'd written up,
Speaker 1: and I got really positive feedback.
Speaker 2: It was like, these programs are great.
Speaker 1: But what's your qualification?
Speaker 2: And every time I'd say, well, mate, I'm a chef.
Speaker 1: And they basically just go, well, what the hell has
Speaker 1: that got to do with these programs that you've brought
Speaker 1: us and presented. And I'd say, well, nothing, but I've
Speaker 1: got a lot of lived experience, you know, I've been
Speaker 1: one of these kids and I've managed to make a
Speaker 1: go of it for myself in the chefing space, and
Speaker 1: I think I've got something to offer. And they all
Speaker 1: just said, yeah, that's great, but come back when you've
Speaker 1: got a qualification saying that you are capable of doing this.
Speaker 1: Okay then, And I took myself off to Griffith University
Speaker 1: and went into the Aberage on to on a student
Speaker 1: support center there, and I went and met with a
Speaker 1: couple of arnies there and I just was like this
Speaker 1: is kind of what I want to do, what do
Speaker 1: I need to study? And they just started writing out
Speaker 1: all these different programs on a piece of paper, and
Speaker 1: it just started to confuse me, to be honest, so
Speaker 1: I kind of just looked at the piece of paper,
Speaker 1: started swirling my finger and I just threw it down
Speaker 1: on something and here I am. I ended up in
Speaker 1: psychology and saw that through and yeah, the rest is
Speaker 1: gone to continued history From there, I did my honors
Speaker 1: with Griffith University, completed my PhD. At Griffith University. I
Speaker 1: worked in the space of aberage on to show on
Speaker 1: a social most well being as an academic and as
Speaker 1: a practitioner for the last two decades.
Speaker 3: Now, Wow, that's incredible, and it's really amazing because like
Speaker 3: what I'm hearing in it as well is that I
Speaker 3: feel like some of the greatest people is their ability
Speaker 3: to be able to turn pain into their purpose. And
Speaker 3: that's what I'm kind of hearing in your story as well,
Speaker 3: which is really beautiful, and also just recognizing the hardships
Speaker 3: that you went through as well, so really honoring you
Speaker 3: on your journey as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1: Know. I was fortunate enough to have the right people
Speaker 1: at the right times to help me get through that.
Speaker 1: And so that's something I'm really passionate about today is
Speaker 1: being able to hopefully be that person for others help
Speaker 1: them to see a different path. And you know, that's
Speaker 1: required me to make some big changes in my life.
Speaker 1: So you know, I had to. I had to reflect
Speaker 1: on that period and go, well, the drug and alcohol
Speaker 1: abuse that may have been helping me to run from
Speaker 1: the trauma wasn't actually helping with it, and so I
Speaker 1: didn't want my children to sort of learn those same habits.
Speaker 1: And we live on the Gold Coast that most people
Speaker 1: recognize as party central, and so I had to make
Speaker 1: an active decision that if they were going to have
Speaker 1: the opportunity to learn something different, the only way to
Speaker 1: sort of bring that about was for me to create
Speaker 1: it in our own chaos and sort of start from there. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: the last thirteen years been sort of straight and sober
Speaker 1: and trying to do my best to deal with my
Speaker 1: traumas in more positive ways.
Speaker 3: Yeah, congratulations. It's amazing as well, because I think you
Speaker 3: spoke to you mentioned the right people at the right time.
Speaker 3: And what I'm curious about as well is like, how
Speaker 3: has culture and community helped to reclaim and strengthen your
Speaker 3: identity since then, because it sounds as you said, it
Speaker 3: was this long journey for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, culture has been the main thing to keep me
Speaker 1: on track and to get me back on track in
Speaker 1: you know, anything that I've tried to achieve, and particularly
Speaker 1: the last fifteen.
Speaker 2: Years of my life.
Speaker 1: It's you know, we've had such strong fundamentals as Aboriginal
Speaker 1: peoples for we'd say since a double of Bitu. We
Speaker 1: so the beginning of time on how to be in
Speaker 1: a good relationship with ourself other in place across time,
Speaker 1: and we've tended to sort of sway away from those
Speaker 1: a little bit, and we you know, colonization has done
Speaker 1: a good job of trying to push us away from
Speaker 1: those at times. But I think we're in a time
Speaker 1: now where we've got this wonderful opportunity to be able
Speaker 1: to reconnect, relearn, reconnect and to look at how do
Speaker 1: we use those old principles that kept us well for
Speaker 1: so long, and how do we use those in today's
Speaker 1: systems and societies to keep us strong and deadly moving forward.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And it's actually really interesting like hearing more
Speaker 3: about the things that you're doing in the present day
Speaker 3: moment or what you believe is missing. You know, you're
Speaker 3: the director of the first Nations Strategy Black Dog Institute,
Speaker 3: which is incredible. Love to hear more about the work
Speaker 3: that you do there as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm really fortunate to have the job that
Speaker 1: I do and to be able to work with such
Speaker 1: a wonderful organization like the Black Dog Institute. The people
Speaker 1: and the passion there is just palpable. You know, people
Speaker 1: are there because they care about what they do. We're
Speaker 1: not the highest paying workplace on the planet, but you know,
Speaker 1: we're driven by passion and I think that's one of
Speaker 1: the magical ingredients that we've actually got. And we've got
Speaker 1: some wonderful mind we've got some wonderful skills, we've got
Speaker 1: some wonderful lived experience knowledges as well that I think,
Speaker 1: when all brought together, allow us to really look at
Speaker 1: how do we use research to make change. So we're
Speaker 1: really passionate about ensuring that we're not just doing research
Speaker 1: for research purposes in this mental health and broader social
Speaker 1: motion wellbeing space, that we're doing research for a purpose,
Speaker 1: that our translation work is just as important as our
Speaker 1: research work. So nothing is just piece of paper sitting
Speaker 1: on a shelf and gathering dust that in some shape
Speaker 1: or form, everything that we're doing from our research is
Speaker 1: translatable and implementable back into communities and trying to bring
Speaker 1: around change. So yeah, my little space within there is
Speaker 1: obviously is the director of First Nation Strategy. And so
Speaker 1: we've got kind of two arms that we do. We've
Speaker 1: got our research arm and then we've got how do
Speaker 1: we turn that into something useful our translation arm. I've
Speaker 1: got a great team around me. They make me look
Speaker 1: really intelligent, really capable, far more than i'dea claim to
Speaker 1: be myself, which is awesome. And I've got full trust
Speaker 1: in them to do the work that they need to do.
Speaker 1: So we work really well, and I hope that that's
Speaker 1: a really good guide for others within our organization about
Speaker 1: how you can use those elements of trust and empowerment
Speaker 1: to really have strong and purposeful and productive teams.
Speaker 3: Beautiful, there was something you were saying before around fundamentals,
Speaker 3: and I actually have heard you speak on a previous
Speaker 3: interview around how Aboriginal psychology is actually very different to
Speaker 3: Western psychology. Would love to hear more about that because
Speaker 3: I find that really fascinating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's massive differences between I guess, Western reflections of
Speaker 1: psychology and in this case, Abriiginal people's I guess, understandings
Speaker 1: of a broader notion of social and emotional wellbeing. Why
Speaker 1: I say in this case is because I actually think
Speaker 1: this is a human perspective. I don't actually see it
Speaker 1: as a pure aboriginal terro show one. I think it's
Speaker 1: just a perspective that more fits for human beings who
Speaker 1: are being, whereas psychology at times doesn't necessarily look at
Speaker 1: all the other facets that make us what we are
Speaker 1: as beings. So you know, everything for us is aboriginal.
Speaker 1: Torrestraint of people's is based around relationships, and that's those
Speaker 1: relationships that we first and foremost have with ourselves that
Speaker 1: allows us to then have relationship with other and other
Speaker 1: can be people that can be placed, it can be
Speaker 1: the cosmos, it can actually be the words that we speak.
Speaker 1: So there is a relationship built into everything, which then
Speaker 1: helps us to understand what is my role and responsibility,
Speaker 1: what are the obligations reciprocal that exist within those relationships.
Speaker 1: So there's a higher call I guess, to being mindful
Speaker 1: about the impacts of what you choose to create through
Speaker 1: those processes. And I think that's a really beautiful way
Speaker 1: to start reflecting on how we can get along better
Speaker 1: with both ourselves but then with others and everything else
Speaker 1: around us. So some of the elements that are really
Speaker 1: important to us and are well documented are things like
Speaker 1: connection to culture, connection to country, connection to environment nature
Speaker 1: as well for those that may not necessarily know country
Speaker 1: because the things that have happened, and connection to our ancestors.
Speaker 1: To be honest, you know, we again some of the
Speaker 1: things that hold us well in who we are and
Speaker 1: in our overall well being, and things that psychology would
Speaker 1: suggest are unreal or not present. You know, I'm well
Speaker 1: documented for telling people that I spend a lot of
Speaker 1: my time talking to dead people in trees. If I
Speaker 1: walked into most psychology practices and said I spent a
Speaker 1: lot of my spare time talking to dead people and trees,
Speaker 1: they'd probably want to send me off to a psychiatrist
Speaker 1: and have me medicate it, rather than seeing that as
Speaker 1: a fundamental piece of my well being.
Speaker 3: Wow, that is so true. And if I mean I
Speaker 3: love that you do that, I love talking to trees.
Speaker 3: I mean I love connecting to nature. And it's so
Speaker 3: funny because I find it so refreshing, yet it is
Speaker 3: so important, like we've lost touch of the things that
Speaker 3: are so important. So I think it's really great that
Speaker 3: you're really paving the way in a way which is
Speaker 3: sad because it should be a way that you need
Speaker 3: to pave in the first place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent agree. And you know, some of
Speaker 1: the best lessons I'd've had in my life have just
Speaker 1: come from things in nature that most people spend their
Speaker 1: days just walking past or would never bother to spend
Speaker 1: the time to and allow themselves to learn from. I
Speaker 1: think you know, at times, as human beings, and particularly
Speaker 1: within Western societies, we've allowed ego to get in the
Speaker 1: way of us actually seeing ourselves as part of We
Speaker 1: see ourselves as more than and that's led to this
Speaker 1: disconnect and our inability to really allow ourselves to learn
Speaker 1: from from the everyday lessons that exist around us in nature.
Speaker 3: So true. And I actually have heard you talk about
Speaker 3: this previously around how psyche what actually? What does psyche
Speaker 3: actually mean? And I found that so interesting and I
Speaker 3: really want you to tell our listeners because I thought
Speaker 3: that was amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if we really take it back to Latin. You know,
Speaker 1: when we're talking about psyche, we're actually talking about the spirit,
Speaker 1: where we're not actually talking about the mind. So the
Speaker 1: field of psychology and its essence should be about maintaining
Speaker 1: the spirit rather than fixing mental ill health or maintaining
Speaker 1: mental health. So that's I guess the reflection that I
Speaker 1: use and the work we do. And it's a common
Speaker 1: sort of understanding or theme amongst average on torres straight
Speaker 1: on to people, you'll more commonly hear us talking about
Speaker 1: having a broken spirit than you will us talking about
Speaker 1: feeling mentally unwelled.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so true. So what do you think mainstream
Speaker 3: mental health systems still misunderstand most?
Speaker 2: Then?
Speaker 1: I think the biggest divide that we actually have, and
Speaker 1: it's not just in the mental health space, it's in
Speaker 1: I guess, the societal different space, and that's that we
Speaker 1: live in one of the most individualized nations in the world,
Speaker 1: being Australia. We're ranked as the second most individualius nation
Speaker 1: in the world. People can look that up on the
Speaker 1: Hofsteed website. We have been there for several decades. We're
Speaker 1: about third, and then we bumped up to second more
Speaker 1: recently and then, so we've got a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: people living in Australia who function through a very individualistic
Speaker 1: lens of how to be, and we have a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of systems that have been created through that lens.
Speaker 1: So that has inherently led to a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: epistemic discrimination existing in our systems that impact on people
Speaker 1: who come from collective as based societies. And we're in
Speaker 1: a situation in Australia where we have all these Aboriginal
Speaker 1: to Shade Islanders societies here groups within Australia who we
Speaker 1: all come from some of the most collective based societies
Speaker 1: known globally. So there's an inherent conflict just in that
Speaker 1: that I think as an Australian nation we're still struggling
Speaker 1: to sort of overcome. And I think we're another space
Speaker 1: that we're getting better at. But I think we've got
Speaker 1: a history of working in the space of ill health
Speaker 1: rather than allowing ourselves to work in the space of
Speaker 1: health and well being, and there's a corporatization that's kind
Speaker 1: of happened around that. But I think we are improving
Speaker 1: in that and it's great to see.
Speaker 3: And when you mean by there's a corporatization around that.
Speaker 3: Can you share more about that? What do you mean
Speaker 3: by that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, if I really reflect on situations within developed
Speaker 1: countries and you look at the things that are really
Speaker 1: driving our ill health and despair, they're things that we
Speaker 1: generally accept as being normal parts of our life. So
Speaker 1: we create these situations where people have better access to
Speaker 1: unhealthy food than they do healthy food. We create situations
Speaker 1: where people put in positions where both parents have to
Speaker 1: work full time from when their children are really young,
Speaker 1: which creates situations of disconnect between children and older people
Speaker 1: and other generations. We have at the other end of
Speaker 1: that scale, we have an aged care system leads to
Speaker 1: disconnect between young people and old people so that generational
Speaker 1: learning's not occurring. There are things that actually, you know,
Speaker 1: have been monetized and in their own shape or form,
Speaker 1: you know, they add to the distress that is being
Speaker 1: experienced by people within society today. And if we flip
Speaker 1: that all around, then if we really cared about health
Speaker 1: and well being, then we'd be looking at how do
Speaker 1: we increase the the opportunities people have to remain connected
Speaker 1: to the things that we know keep them well. How
Speaker 1: do we make sure that people have the opportunities to
Speaker 1: maintain connections to their family. How do we help increase
Speaker 1: the opportunities that people have the opportunity to form a
Speaker 1: strong sense of positive identity as connected to a place
Speaker 1: and the others within that place. Yeah, and I just
Speaker 1: don't think we've got there yet.
Speaker 3: More of my conversation with Clinton after this short break.
Speaker 3: You were talking a bit before around discrimination and essentially
Speaker 3: when two ways of being can come into conflict when
Speaker 3: we talk about racism, what kinds of harms are most
Speaker 3: often missed in public conversations.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when we're having these discussions around racism
Speaker 1: and discrimination, we need to be prepared to really take
Speaker 1: it back to that form of racism that lies within epistemic.
Speaker 1: So epistemic discrimination is the discrimination that simply exists within thought.
Speaker 1: So whose thought led to the systems? Whose thought led
Speaker 1: to what we create as such? And so in an
Speaker 1: Australian society, you know, we've had one over overarching influence
Speaker 1: that has led to a whole bunch of policies, procedures, systems,
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera that haven't necessarily been inclusive. And
Speaker 1: so that's meant that there's a whole bunch of people
Speaker 1: that they don't necessarily work for. So I think that's
Speaker 1: where we need to start. We need to really step
Speaker 1: it back and go, you know, what we see out
Speaker 1: on the football field, or what we see in the
Speaker 1: school yard, or what we see in the workplace is
Speaker 1: in itself inherently a product of what was created back here.
Speaker 1: So we need to be prepared to look at, well,
Speaker 1: how do we allow new thought in that can help
Speaker 1: to then shift systems. And for me, that's about us
Speaker 1: embracing first nations knowledges.
Speaker 2: You know, we're the oldest.
Speaker 1: Practitioners, environmentalists, business people, artists, whatever you want to reflect
Speaker 1: on on the planet, and we've got a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of knowledge there that can be really beneficial to humanity.
Speaker 1: And I'd suggest that far more of us are wanting
Speaker 1: to share that than are not. But we want to
Speaker 1: share when we know it's going to be one respected
Speaker 1: and two used in the way that it was intended.
Speaker 1: So that's where I think we need to be doing
Speaker 1: the work is in terms of how do we bring
Speaker 1: people forward to ensure that the knowledges that we hold
Speaker 1: that we think can be beneficial for everybody are going
Speaker 1: to be respected, are not going to be stolen and
Speaker 1: used one or potentially against us, or two for individual
Speaker 1: financial gain in some shape or form, being collective based knowledges.
Speaker 1: So I think if we allow more First Nations peoples
Speaker 1: the opportunities to share First Nations knowledges in influential platforms
Speaker 1: such as this, such as some of the conferences that
Speaker 1: some people listening to this may have heard me presenting at,
Speaker 1: I think that's wonderful opportunity to let people dip their
Speaker 1: toes into thinking about another way of thought.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, I guess my next question is around how
Speaker 3: does everyday racism accumulate over time and affects the well
Speaker 3: being for Aboriginal and tour Straight Islander people.
Speaker 1: That's the key word is accumulate, and that really is
Speaker 1: what is the damaging effect. You know, we all experience
Speaker 1: discrimination at some shape of form and time in our lives.
Speaker 1: The difference for many people as compared to others is
Speaker 1: that the exposure and the experiences are so frequent that
Speaker 1: you don't have time to process or heal from each one.
Speaker 1: So for us, as Aboriginal torro Straate Island to people's,
Speaker 1: our lived experience is one of experiencing individual, systemic, institutional
Speaker 1: discriminations and racism so constantly that we don't get to heal.
Speaker 1: So two things come from that. A snowballing effect, whereas
Speaker 1: it just accumulates and builds up, and we see the
Speaker 1: damages in terms of people's social emotion wellbeing from that.
Speaker 1: But the other thing that happens is we build a
Speaker 1: sensitivity to it. But then we get called out on
Speaker 1: our sensitivity. People go, are You're just too sensitive? And
Speaker 1: what we fail to recognize in that moment is sensitivity
Speaker 1: is a protective factor, Like people build a sensitivity to
Speaker 1: certain things as a way of being able to recognize it,
Speaker 1: identify it before it has opportunity to harm. So, yes,
Speaker 1: we are far more sensitive to racism than some other
Speaker 1: people in Australia, but that's unfortunately because we're exposed to
Speaker 1: it more often and we've had to learn how do
Speaker 1: I identify it before it does more harm than potentially
Speaker 1: it may. Yeah, and then to get called out on
Speaker 1: that just drives the circle even further.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and are you able to give some examples of
Speaker 3: what does that actually look like? Like you mentioned some
Speaker 3: of these different types of racism just because I'm sure
Speaker 3: there's people listening in that, you know, really want to
Speaker 3: be allies in this space for Indigenous people.
Speaker 1: Individual racism is that racism that is projected at individuals
Speaker 1: or small groups of individuals as such. So as I've
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, it could be the stuff that we see
Speaker 1: in the workplace, or that we hear on the school
Speaker 1: grounds or on sports fields, whatever it is, where people
Speaker 1: are being heckled for who they are. Institutional racism is
Speaker 1: then the racism that is built within institutions. So you know,
Speaker 1: we know that institutions were created through that certain form
Speaker 1: of epistemic that has led them to work really well
Speaker 1: for some people and to not work at all for
Speaker 1: other people. So institutional racism is the racism that we're
Speaker 1: exposed to within institutions because of the existence of that.
Speaker 1: So that might be in the form of certain policies
Speaker 1: or procedures within the workplace not working for everybody in
Speaker 1: the workplace. So you might have something like a bereavement process,
Speaker 1: a bereavement policy in a workplace that suggests you can
Speaker 1: have two days off or three days off in the
Speaker 1: event of a immediate family member passing away. You then
Speaker 1: might have somebody who has had multiple members of their
Speaker 1: family pass away in a short period of time one
Speaker 1: because of the heightened risk that is experienced by many
Speaker 1: group people within that group. So for us, as Aboriginal
Speaker 1: and torres straded island of people's because of colonization and
Speaker 1: because of ongoing oppression, we are at heightened risk of
Speaker 1: experiencing a whole bunch of chronic diseases, a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of mental health concerns and others that may lead to
Speaker 1: a greater likelihood of unfortunately, something happening. So then you've
Speaker 1: got that, so you might you might have then taken
Speaker 1: multiple times or multiple periods of work because you've had
Speaker 1: to attend to multiple forms of sorry business, and then
Speaker 1: you might get questioned about that by your manager. So
Speaker 1: you might have a manager go, you know, how many
Speaker 1: aunties can you really have? You've said you've been off
Speaker 1: for an Artis's funeral three times over in the last
Speaker 1: three months. I actually had this at a university that
Speaker 1: I was working at where I had you know, I
Speaker 1: had someone in a senior position, and that university questioned
Speaker 1: me about how many grandparents I had because I'd been
Speaker 1: off for multiple funerals in a short period of time.
Speaker 1: For people that I recognized as grandparents to me, either
Speaker 1: through family or culturally, and so that's a form of
Speaker 1: institutional discrimination. Systemic discrimination then takes that even broader, and
Speaker 1: it's the discrimination that exists within the systems that then
Speaker 1: our institutions exist in that we as individuals then exist
Speaker 1: through as well. So larger systems. Things could be things
Speaker 1: like the way that certain measures within child safety assessments
Speaker 1: are constructed in a way that inherently puts or classes
Speaker 1: Aboriginal children at higher risk than others for no rather
Speaker 1: reason than they happen to be Aboriginal. That then puts
Speaker 1: you at an immediate greater risk of removal than non
Speaker 1: Indigenous people. So that's a systemic racism.
Speaker 3: After the break, we discussed what Nonindigenous Australians should understand
Speaker 3: about their role in helping create safer, healthier and more
Speaker 3: supportive well being environments for First Nations peoples. How are
Speaker 3: young First Nations people coping with the world today, especially
Speaker 3: post the Voice referendum.
Speaker 1: I think young people are having to navigate a more
Speaker 1: racially charged environment than potentially my generation had to. I
Speaker 1: think we've made real progress, and all of a sudden
Speaker 1: we've come to things like the referendum, and we seem
Speaker 1: to have stepped backwards as a nation, particularly in terms
Speaker 1: of what we're exposed to through media. So while I
Speaker 1: don't actually believe that we have more people who are
Speaker 1: racist in Australia than we've ever had before, what I
Speaker 1: do feel we have is more exposure to events of racism,
Speaker 1: so be that through how it's cast in media, or
Speaker 1: then how it may be how people are viewing that
Speaker 1: through social media platforms or being exposed to it through
Speaker 1: social media platforms, And I think that social media space
Speaker 1: has led to a constant exposure.
Speaker 2: So for a young person.
Speaker 1: Who may experience racism within school, traditionally they could have
Speaker 1: tapped out from that when they came home and at
Speaker 1: least had a little bit of freedom from it, spent
Speaker 1: time with their family, slept overnight, being able to go
Speaker 1: back to school. Even if it happened at school the
Speaker 1: next day, They've still had a slight respite period in
Speaker 1: many instances. That's not present now because social media is
Speaker 1: there twenty four to seven, and I think if people
Speaker 1: are experiencing racism and discrimination and hate speech through those platforms,
Speaker 1: then they are going to experience it far more frequently
Speaker 1: than others may around them. And I think there's a damaging.
Speaker 3: Impact to that, absolutely, absolutely, And I guess you know,
Speaker 3: for any First Nations people listening to this episode who
Speaker 3: may be struggling with their self worth, identity, and mental health,
Speaker 3: what would you want to say to them right now?
Speaker 2: Ah?
Speaker 1: Look for me, Like, what I really want young people
Speaker 1: to recognize is you know, your indigenity, your abriginality, whoever
Speaker 1: your mob is, that part of you is the strongest
Speaker 1: part of you. It is the most positive, most powerful,
Speaker 1: most protective thing that you can actually have. And it's
Speaker 1: something we should hold on to real dearly, because to
Speaker 1: be honest, it's something that we have that others may
Speaker 1: never ever experience. You know, others will never experience the
Speaker 1: connection to country that I have when I go home
Speaker 1: if they're not from there, and I won't experience that
Speaker 1: where I live here on corn America Country. It's something
Speaker 1: we recognize because we have that strong connection to particular place.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, at times I feel sorry
Speaker 1: for people who may never get to have that experience
Speaker 1: in their life because they're so disconnected from their own histories.
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of young people today don't even
Speaker 1: know where their grandparents are from, or their great grandparents,
Speaker 1: or what the history is that led them their families
Speaker 1: to be here in Australia. So they don't even have
Speaker 1: that opportunity a lot of the time to start unpacking
Speaker 1: and learning about where do I come from? What does
Speaker 1: that mean in terms of who I am, how I act,
Speaker 1: what I am or am not comfortable with in my life.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I and it's the same again when I
Speaker 1: go out to remote communities. Know, like I think sometimes
Speaker 1: out there young people out in those remote communities get
Speaker 1: so fixated on what they think they're missing out on,
Speaker 1: and I'm always just trying to drag them back to
Speaker 1: recognizing what they have that city folk just never going
Speaker 1: to have. They've got freedoms that you can't imagine. You know,
Speaker 1: I go out to some of these communities, they're riding
Speaker 1: a horse down the main street, or they're riding them
Speaker 1: They're riding their motorbikes past the police station, their dirt
Speaker 1: bikes past the police station. You know, I live out
Speaker 1: here and tell a Budge Valley, and if me and
Speaker 1: my kids ride out dirt bikes in the in the
Speaker 1: big empty forest at the back here, police get called,
Speaker 1: so you.
Speaker 2: Know, it's a polar opposite.
Speaker 1: And so I think sometimes we really need to get
Speaker 1: back to appreciating what is it that I have and
Speaker 1: how can I turn to that to keep me strong
Speaker 1: and deadly, rather than allowing myself to get so fixed
Speaker 1: to what I think I'm missing out on.
Speaker 2: And it's all a perception.
Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, And I know you've just mentioned about connection
Speaker 3: to country, but for listeners who may not fully understand
Speaker 3: what connection to country actually is, how would you explain
Speaker 3: its role in social and emotional wellbeing.
Speaker 1: So connection to country has been shown through all the
Speaker 1: research for a long time now to be one of
Speaker 1: the strongest protective factors to social and emotional wellbeing. You know,
Speaker 1: you will constantly hear original peoples talking about how when
Speaker 1: they need to heal, they go home, they go back
Speaker 1: to country. And I think that's because we've held onto
Speaker 1: the knowledge that we are what we've come from. I
Speaker 1: am the dust that makes up my country. You know,
Speaker 1: it's the made up of the exact same minerals as
Speaker 1: everything that's on that country. And so when you allow
Speaker 1: yourself to let go again of the ego and everything
Speaker 1: that we've been led to believe, it is to be
Speaker 1: human and just get back to I'm a part of
Speaker 1: nature and I'm actually a part of that ecosystem right there.
Speaker 1: There's a real there's a real power in that that
Speaker 1: allows you to just find a space of silence, silence
Speaker 1: from all the noise that fills our minds and our
Speaker 1: spirits in our general life.
Speaker 3: Totally, And it's interesting as well because as you talk
Speaker 3: about it, I'm like, yeah, it just you know, we
Speaker 3: have been in this individualistic culture absolutely like what you
Speaker 3: were talking about before, and if anything, it's way less
Speaker 3: stressful if we lean into collective ways of being because
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, I don't need to do this alone.
Speaker 3: Oh I can actually get support in these really beautiful
Speaker 3: ways that have obviously have been working for thousands and
Speaker 3: thousands of years. So yeah, it's just it can constantly
Speaker 3: confuses me as well.
Speaker 2: Just seen it all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much protective factors in being a member
Speaker 1: of a collective. Like you just said, You've got other
Speaker 1: people that you can turn to in tough times. You've
Speaker 1: got other people that are going to be there to
Speaker 1: look out for you, to share with you. That comes
Speaker 1: role in responsibility with that. I've got to be prepared
Speaker 1: that if I'm in a position where I've had the
Speaker 1: opportunity to gather more wealth, gather more resources, gather more skills, knowledge,
Speaker 1: whatever it might be, that I actually have a responsibility
Speaker 1: to share that around a bit in whatever way I
Speaker 1: actually can. And I think that's a wonderful thing. There
Speaker 1: is risk factors that come with it, though, you know,
Speaker 1: and I mentioned one of those before in terms of unfortunately,
Speaker 1: when you're connected to more people and more things, you're
Speaker 1: more likely to experience loss. You know, if I see
Speaker 1: more people as family, I'm more likely to lose family
Speaker 1: because there's more people identified in that group. If I
Speaker 1: see myself as connected to certain animals and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden those animals habitats themselves are becoming endangered or
Speaker 1: even extinct, then that's a part of me that goes
Speaker 1: with that. So there is some risks within it, but
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly extremely protective.
Speaker 3: So I know, I've heard previously in interviews where you've
Speaker 3: actually described yourself as someone who has thick skin, and
Speaker 3: you know you're in a role where you're definitely up
Speaker 3: against systems and you know in policy changes, how did
Speaker 3: you develop thick skin?
Speaker 2: For me?
Speaker 1: Developing that thick skin required me to go back and
Speaker 1: really reflect on the principles of my own law and therefore,
Speaker 1: what responsibilities do I actually hold given the position I'm in.
Speaker 1: And you know, as I mentioned at the beginning of
Speaker 1: this year, and I'm really fortunate to be in the
Speaker 1: position that I've in. I've had a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: people that have helped me to get where I am,
Speaker 1: both here present and those that have come before me.
Speaker 1: And so if that requires me to just put on
Speaker 1: another layer and get out there and to have some
Speaker 1: tough conversations, then for me, it was a choice I
Speaker 1: had to make. And once I'd made the choice, that
Speaker 1: allowed me to therefore not take everything as personal, because
Speaker 1: for me, it's not when I'm out there and I'm
Speaker 1: having difficult conversations, I'm not out there, and even when
Speaker 1: people may be saying some and at times very racist
Speaker 1: things back in terms of you know, some of the
Speaker 1: topics that I talk about, I don't take it on
Speaker 1: personally because I see it as a cultural obligation. So
Speaker 1: that's allowed me to continue doing it. And yeah, and
Speaker 1: then I think over time that it's like a muscle, right,
Speaker 1: like the skin at the end of the day's in
Speaker 1: organ and so if I need to toughen it up,
Speaker 1: then I've had to be prepared to put myself out
Speaker 1: there and get in those situations where I have those
Speaker 1: difficult conversations where I allow myself to go and reflect
Speaker 1: and to heal from anything that's come from that, to
Speaker 1: be able to get back in there and do it again.
Speaker 1: I think that's probably something that we forget, particularly in
Speaker 1: the field that I work in a lot, is we've
Speaker 1: been led to believe that self care is selfish rather
Speaker 1: than you know, we've been led to believe we just
Speaker 1: need to be there twenty four to seven for everybody,
Speaker 1: all the time, no matter what.
Speaker 2: Rather than for me.
Speaker 1: Self care is the most important part of being the
Speaker 1: most effective member of the collective that I can actually be,
Speaker 1: because if I allow myself to burn out, or if
Speaker 1: I allow myself to get filled up with negativity and
Speaker 1: become really despondent with you know, the work I do
Speaker 1: or the world I live in, then I'm actually not
Speaker 1: the best version of me for the collective. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I've just tried to flip everything in terms of how
Speaker 1: our old peoples have reflected on this, because they went
Speaker 1: through some morrable things that I'm never going to have
Speaker 1: to face, and how might they reflect on this and
Speaker 1: how can I use that to get through whatever the
Speaker 1: situation might be.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and in those moments where people have said really
Speaker 3: racist things to you, what do you do?
Speaker 2: Like do you call that out?
Speaker 3: Or do you have to check your safety and your
Speaker 3: nervous system before you can figure out what to do next.
Speaker 1: I generally have to check my mouth first and foremost,
Speaker 1: so I have this bad habit for swearing.
Speaker 2: Enough.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a bit a lot of times when I'm like,
Speaker 1: are you fing serious?
Speaker 2: Type stuff?
Speaker 1: And I have to like catch myself. Given the forums
Speaker 1: that I'm in, I have to reword it before it
Speaker 1: I allow it to escape my mouth.
Speaker 3: You have a different dialogue going on your head. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: we could say that.
Speaker 1: Look, depending on the situation, there's different ways that I
Speaker 1: deal with it. Sometimes I actually find it comical. Sometimes
Speaker 1: I actually feel pity for those that haven't had the
Speaker 1: opportunity to learn, Like it really depends, like if I'm
Speaker 1: in a situation where somebody's been and had the opportunity
Speaker 1: to learn a lot, and they haven't bothered to take
Speaker 1: that on board and they just remain ignorant. Then I
Speaker 1: experienced frustration like anybody else in those moments. But if
Speaker 1: I'm working with people who I can tell a curious
Speaker 1: but I've never had the opportunity to learn certain stuff,
Speaker 1: and they've asked me a question that's in their mind,
Speaker 1: just a question that they want unpacked, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to allow myself to be triggered by their curiosity. I'm
Speaker 1: actually going to do what I can to help build
Speaker 1: their knowledge base and hopefully that then helps.
Speaker 2: Them on their journey moving forward. I think at times again, we.
Speaker 1: Allow our own triggers to potentially get in the way
Speaker 1: of us helping people on their educational journeys. They're healing journeys,
Speaker 1: whatever it actually may may be. And I understand why
Speaker 1: that happens, because, as I said earlier, sensitivity is built
Speaker 1: through exposure. But I've had the opportunity to learn how
Speaker 1: do I catch that? How do I reflect on it
Speaker 1: before I'm so I'm responding, I'm not just being reactional.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's really powerful. There was something I actually
Speaker 3: wanted to talk about because I know we spoke briefly
Speaker 3: about out where racism shows up in different areas, like
Speaker 3: across systems. But I think something I'm really aware of
Speaker 3: is like we do continue to see instances of racism
Speaker 3: occurring in public spaces, including the heckling and beooing of
Speaker 3: Indigenous leaders and veterans at separate Anzac Day ceremonies. How
Speaker 3: do experiences like these affect the mental health of First
Speaker 3: Nations people?
Speaker 1: Yeah, we can't hide from the fact that these events
Speaker 1: impact negatively on social emotion wellbeing for Aboriginal entire shown
Speaker 1: on peoples. There is direct correlation between the experiences of
Speaker 1: racism that people are exposed to and their overall social
Speaker 1: emotional wellbeing. And I think the more that these events
Speaker 1: occur in large public gatherings or in very highly covered
Speaker 1: through media events, the more exposure actually occurs through that.
Speaker 1: So more people are actually experiencing these things, which I
Speaker 1: don't think is necessarily something that we've always had to
Speaker 1: consider in the past. I think that the only way
Speaker 1: that you know, as a nation, that we can continue
Speaker 1: to move forward through this is to really look at
Speaker 1: how do we build some cohesion, how do we build
Speaker 1: social cohesion? And for me, that really needs to get
Speaker 1: back to how can we get back to reflecting on
Speaker 1: what we have in common rather than having this constant
Speaker 1: dialogue about how different we are. Yes, my ethnicity, my
Speaker 1: cultural background is different to other peoples, but I'm a
Speaker 1: human being and I generally will have the same emotions,
Speaker 1: the same desires and needs as all the other human
Speaker 1: beings around me. So I think if we get if
Speaker 1: we start getting back to a real strong, human rights
Speaker 1: based framework for moving forward. You know, I was watching
Speaker 1: the National Press Club today and you know, it was
Speaker 1: a speech by the Human Rights Commissioner and actually speaking
Speaker 1: about how Australia has been discussing introducing a Human Rights
Speaker 1: Act for a period of time now, and I actually
Speaker 1: see a lot of value in something like that because
Speaker 1: it would give us a guiding frame in terms of
Speaker 1: how do we actually need to treat each other as
Speaker 1: human beings? And that doesn't actually take away from anybody's
Speaker 1: ethnicity or cultural background or religiosity. It just, if anything,
Speaker 1: it embraces all the difference and goes, well, how do
Speaker 1: we take all the difference and make us all stronger
Speaker 1: together while respecting each other. And so, yeah, I really
Speaker 1: hope that we can move in that direction.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm really loving that you're talking about. You know,
Speaker 3: what's the path forward, How can we be stronger together
Speaker 3: social cohesion and kind of leads me to my next
Speaker 3: question of what should non Indigenous Australians understand about their
Speaker 3: role in creating better wellbeing environments.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the first and foremost thing that I think Australians
Speaker 1: need to not just acknowledge, but accept is that colonization
Speaker 1: is an ongoing process. We don't live in this rainbow's
Speaker 1: very floss coated society that governments at times like to
Speaker 1: portray that Australia is a post colonial nation and we've
Speaker 1: moved on from that and everything's great for everybody now,
Speaker 1: colonization is ongoing. We know that, Like the referendum was
Speaker 1: a prime example. You know, if we're still in a
Speaker 1: situation where we're going to give ninety seven percent of
Speaker 1: the population the opportunity to vote on what's in the
Speaker 1: best interest of three percent of the population, that is
Speaker 1: a colonial process. So we can't escape that we are
Speaker 1: still doing things that we've done from the past and
Speaker 1: that continues to have an impact on the social motion
Speaker 1: well being of us as first nations. People's not just
Speaker 1: through the systemic and institutional discriminations and the racism, et cetera.
Speaker 1: But through the ongoing experience of oppression, because we don't
Speaker 1: have self determination as First Nations peoples. So what we
Speaker 1: really need is strong allies. We need people to be
Speaker 1: able to face that. You know, that cold hard fact
Speaker 1: that everything that is gained in Australia comes at a
Speaker 1: loss to Aboriginal and terrestraight onland peoples. And if I'm
Speaker 1: actively a part of that, I have to acknowledge and
Speaker 1: accept my position within that so that I can reflect
Speaker 1: on how can I do less damage and look at
Speaker 1: how do I do some more good? So I try
Speaker 1: and live my life and I try and encourage others
Speaker 1: to live through that lens of do less harm, do
Speaker 1: more good. We can never live doing no harm. The
Speaker 1: fact that we hear and we're breathing, we're having this conversation.
Speaker 1: I'm using electricity that's come from coal while I sit
Speaker 1: here and talk to you right now. There's no point
Speaker 1: here being here just bagging out the mining industry unless
Speaker 1: I'm prepared to turn off all my electricity. But I
Speaker 1: can be far more mindful in terms of how I
Speaker 1: use it. And they're the type of reflections I think
Speaker 1: we need to have in more and more instances. So
Speaker 1: when it comes to racism, it's like, well, I might
Speaker 1: be able to stop everybody being racist, but I can
Speaker 1: be far more mindful about how I choose to engage
Speaker 1: or what I choose to stand up for. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I think the more people do that, we'll have this
Speaker 1: collective swell that'll bring around a positive change.
Speaker 3: I love that language of collective swell. That's essentially what
Speaker 3: we want to create and having these conversations. So yeah,
Speaker 3: thank you so much. That's really really powerful. And there
Speaker 3: was actually something that you mentioned before, and I know
Speaker 3: you referenced about you connect to law, but it's not law,
Speaker 3: it's l ore. Are you abo to explain more about
Speaker 3: what that actually means.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So for me, I actually would use law, but
Speaker 1: talking about my traditional law because unfortunately, what I think
Speaker 1: we've done in Australia again is we've positioned aboriginal law
Speaker 1: alongside folk law through the use of lore. Like when
Speaker 1: you consider lore, people automatically think about folk law it's
Speaker 1: just some stories of the past. They don't actually see
Speaker 1: the influential purpose and the governance systems and structures that
Speaker 1: are built into our ways of knowing me in doing
Speaker 1: through law. So for me, I purposely. Usually, you know,
Speaker 1: I all purposely position it as law and either call
Speaker 1: it relational law or traditional law or whatever else, customary law, whatever.
Speaker 1: But I tend to not use lore because yeah, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: I think what that automatically does is it positions it
Speaker 1: as lower in terms of importance, integrity, value than Westminster law,
Speaker 1: which for me, it doesn't like living my life through
Speaker 1: my law, which in my language Geria Gamil protects me
Speaker 1: from Westminster law because it's all based around positive principles
Speaker 1: of being in good relationship with self other than place
Speaker 1: across time. Yeah, so you know, how do I understand
Speaker 1: notions of respect, responsibility, reciprocity, acceptance, connectedness, these things, positions
Speaker 1: of truth. You know, they're the fundamentals of Dei Gamil.
Speaker 1: So for me, they're far more of value in terms
Speaker 1: of guiding the way that I choose to live my life,
Speaker 1: the way I choose to do my work. And that
Speaker 1: could be when I'm on my country, when I'm here
Speaker 1: on Kumba, Maria country, or when I'm in Tokyo. It's
Speaker 1: still going to protect me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so beautiful.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing sharing that, and also just like
Speaker 3: thank you so much for this conversation and sharing your experiences,
Speaker 3: the wisdom and just the stuff that you continue to create,
Speaker 3: you and your team, the change that you're creating for
Speaker 3: First Nations people, and also, you know, I really hope
Speaker 3: this conversation inspires listeners to be stronger allies and really
Speaker 3: empower the people in their lives to create social cohesion
Speaker 3: for the good of Australia and the future.
Speaker 2: So thank you, No, I really appreciate.
Speaker 1: Look, all I can ever hope for in engagements like
Speaker 1: this is that everybody just takes one thing away, you know,
Speaker 1: And if everybody just finds that one thing that you
Speaker 1: know has been a bit of an insight, bit of
Speaker 1: a light bulb for them and takes that way and
Speaker 1: reflects on what does that mean in terms of the
Speaker 1: way that I choose to live my life and I
Speaker 1: choose to engage with others, particularly Aboriginal peoples. Again, I
Speaker 1: think that's going to make a momentous positive movement. Thank you, Governanda.
Speaker 3: This was such an informative and important conversation. I'm truly
Speaker 3: so grateful for people like Clinton doing the work that
Speaker 3: he does. Thank you to Clinton for joining me on
Speaker 3: this episode. Today. You can find links to his work
Speaker 3: at the Black Dog Institute. In our show notes, Mama
Speaker 3: Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters
Speaker 3: on which this podcast was recorded