1 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 2: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 3: So I'm a narcissist, but you seem so nice. Oh, 5 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 3: I'm pretending. I figured out if I'm charming and funny 6 00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 3: and give you lots of attention and affection, then I 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 3: can get you to fall in love with me. Why 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 3: do you need me to fall in love with you? Oh, 9 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 3: because then you're less likely to leave once I start 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 3: lying and belittling and gas lighting you and chipping away 11 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 3: yourself worth in order to control and manipulate you. 12 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 4: Huh. 13 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: Poor Mamma Mia. I'm your host, Ashani Dante, Welcome to 14 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: But are you happy because jes b de Lulu isn't 15 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 1: a coping strategy? 16 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastaga Hornus, a clinical psychologist passionate about 17 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 2: happiness and mental health. 18 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 4: Have you, like many of us, heard. 19 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 2: The word narcissist thrown around a lot lately and are 20 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: you sometimes not entirely sure if what is actually being 21 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 2: described is a narcissist or maybe someone who's just not 22 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 2: very nice. 23 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: Narcissism is definitely one of those psychological frameworks that's been 24 00:01:15,759 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: thrown around a lot, from conversations with your girlfriends to 25 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: our social media feed, and by. 26 00:01:20,119 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: The end of this episode, you're going to have a 27 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,639 Speaker 2: better understanding of narcissism, how to spot the traits, and 28 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 2: what to do if you find yourself with a narcissist 29 00:01:29,039 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 2: in your life. 30 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 4: Let's do it. 31 00:01:35,759 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: At as Asia. I want to start by asking if 32 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: you've worked with many people with narcissism. 33 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 2: I have, and I think it's something that I really 34 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 2: want to address first up, because the whole topic of 35 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: narcissism narcissistic personalities, I think is a really topical one, 36 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,279 Speaker 2: but one that I want to address sensitively, and I 37 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: want to address it with sensitivity for the people who 38 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 2: may have been on the receiving end of someone who 39 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: is narcissistic, but also for the people who actually have 40 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 2: those narcissistic qualities themselves. Right, I've read a fair bit 41 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 2: of the kind of pop psychology literature about narcissism in 42 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: preparation for today, and a lot of it can be 43 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 2: very shaming to people who do display these narcissistic traits. Now, 44 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 2: I'm not here sitting and agreeing with some of the 45 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: traits that they exhibit, But I think it's important for 46 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: us to hold sensitivity in this whole conversation. 47 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: Oh. I think it's a really good frame up and 48 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: really important to keep in mind because it is a 49 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: very sensitive topic to many. So what's that like working 50 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: with people with narcissism. 51 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: It's interesting A lot of the time a person who 52 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 2: has these narcissistic traits won't necessarily come into the therapy 53 00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: room because they think they have narcissism. Right, It's a 54 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 2: very rare day that someone comes in and goes, I 55 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: think I'm a narcissist. Can you help figure out if 56 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: that's an accurate diagnosis for me? They usually come in 57 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: because of secondary problems in their life. Maybe they're feeling 58 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 2: quite depressed, maybe they've got some sort of addiction concern. 59 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: These are quite common dual diagnoses we might see for people, 60 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 2: and through the process of assessing their mood, their mental health, 61 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 2: and addiction, it might come to the forefront that they 62 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 2: actually do have these narcissistic traits as well, so. 63 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: They kind of connect it so they can overlap absolutely. 64 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: So then in terms like in the clinic room, then 65 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: people that actually do come to actively seek your support 66 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: would you say that they are more people that are 67 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: in relationships with a narcissist. 68 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: Definitely, I would see many more people who come to 69 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: therapy who believe that they may have a narcissist in 70 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: their life. Whether that be a partner, a romantic partner, 71 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 2: that's a common question that's brought into the therapy room, 72 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 2: but also a narcissistic parent is the other common theme 73 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 2: that we see come through a person coming into the 74 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 2: therapy room feeling like they're experiencing difficulties in their life, 75 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 2: and when we sort of unpack their early childhood experiences 76 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 2: and the trajectory of their life, it comes out that 77 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 2: they may have had a parent who had these narcissistic traits. 78 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: I feel like we need to break this down now. 79 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 1: What is narcissism because as we've mentioned before, the label 80 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: gets thrown around a lot. It can be misinterpreted. Give 81 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: us the lowdown. 82 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: Okay, So narcissism, like any personality style, I guess, exists 83 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: on a spectrum. So we can meet people in our 84 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: day to day life who have very mild flavors of narcissism. 85 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: So this might be, you know, the person who loves 86 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 2: to tell stories about themselves, and when you jump in 87 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: with your kind of experience of the weekend and what 88 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 2: you got up to, they'll bring it back to what 89 00:04:58,400 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 2: they did. 90 00:04:58,760 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 4: On the weekend. 91 00:04:59,520 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: Right. 92 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 2: People who are very sort of self focused, who can 93 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 2: be quite grandiose, a little bit overconfident, sometimes arrogant in 94 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: their personality style. And these people well, are not necessarily harmful. 95 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 2: Sometimes they're a little bit annoying to be around, a 96 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 2: little bit unpleasant to be around, but they're not harmful. 97 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 2: That's one end of the spectrum. The other end of 98 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 2: the spectrum where we meet someone who has quite intense 99 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: narcissistic personality traits, might be someone who has quite rigid 100 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 2: patterns of over inflating themselves in situations and devaluing others. 101 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 2: When we see the more extreme forms of narcissism, we 102 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: look at potentially diagnosing what we refer to as a 103 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: narcissistic personality disorder, So there is an official diagnosis that 104 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: we can give people who present with many themes and 105 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 2: patterns of narcissism to the point where it is actually 106 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 2: a clinically defined personality disorder, and a personality disorder is 107 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: essentially someone who's got very rigid patterns of thinking and 108 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 2: being in the world. This can present in all sorts 109 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 2: of ways. There's lots of different personality disorders that. 110 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 4: I won't get into now. 111 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 2: Maybe we can cover that in another episode sometimes, but 112 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: for narcissistic personality disorder, it really is about this grandiosity, 113 00:06:27,840 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 2: an overinflated sense of self and importance, sometimes a preoccupation 114 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 2: with power and control over other people. A belief that 115 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: they are superior to others, that they should live by 116 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 2: a different set of rules to what other people should. 117 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: A lack of empathy, finding it quite hard to put 118 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 2: themselves in the shoes of other people and think about 119 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 2: how others might be feeling. And they may also take 120 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 2: advantage of people or have unreasonable expectations of others. 121 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: What would you say are the signs and symptoms that 122 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: you are in some kind of relationship with a narcissist. 123 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 4: This is a great question. 124 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 2: If you think you might be in a relationship with 125 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 2: a narcissist, you might be seeing signs of what I 126 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: would refer to as a power struggle. 127 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 4: When you want to put forward a thought. 128 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: An opinion, an emotional experience you're having. A person with 129 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 2: a narcissistic personality style may have trouble validating, recognizing, and 130 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 2: giving space to what you're saying, and so you might 131 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: end up in this feeling of a struggle for power 132 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 2: and control. You might also find that when you do 133 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: bring forward your emotions that the person you're with is 134 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: really lacking empathy in how they respond to you. They 135 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: might be able to give some surface level empathy, like 136 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: people tend to know what to say if someone's upset 137 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: and struggling, but beyond that they might really struggle to 138 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 2: maintain empathy and compassion. And you may also feel like 139 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 2: maybe you feel like you're being manipulated in certain ways 140 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: that it's the feeling in your gut that says, I 141 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 2: don't feel emotionally safe in this interaction. 142 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: As you're saying that, it actually reminds us back to 143 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: episode one where you talked about emotions being a data. 144 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: So I feel like this is one of those moments 145 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: where it's like, what is that dynamic bringing up for 146 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: you personally? How is it feeling? 147 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 2: Yes, what am I feeling in my body? What are 148 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 2: my emotions telling me about how I feel when I'm 149 00:08:33,439 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: in the room with this person or when I'm having 150 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 2: a conversation with that person. Because as you say, shiny, 151 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 2: those emotions are such important sources of information for us. 152 00:08:43,560 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: So where does narcissism come from. 153 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 4: So there's two pathways. 154 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 2: Let's say, to developing narcissistic traits, and they really start 155 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 2: in early life. For the most part, people who experience 156 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 2: this narcissistic personality style, who have this narcissistic personality style, 157 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: they ultimately have very deep seated feelings of guilt and shame. 158 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: Now I want to pause and talk about the difference 159 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: between guilt and shame for a moment. Guilt is the 160 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: feeling that tells me I have done something wrong, I 161 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 2: have done something that breaks my moral code. I've done 162 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: something I don't like. That's really useful because we can, 163 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 2: you know, change and make amends. Shame, on the other hand, 164 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 2: tells me not that I have done something bad or wrong, 165 00:09:41,560 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: but that I am bad or I am wrong. So 166 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,839 Speaker 2: there's a big difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is 167 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 2: about my actions. Shame is about who I am fundamentally 168 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:58,479 Speaker 2: as a person. So while the narcissistic person might appear 169 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 2: on the outside to be very grandiose and very confidence 170 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: and very charismatic and can easily connect and talk to people, 171 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 2: it's very different to what their internal experience is that's 172 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: conscious or subconscious. We know that for most narcissistic people 173 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 2: there are those deep seated feelings of guilt, but predominantly shame. 174 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 2: They do not feel good about themselves. They have strong 175 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: feelings of worthlessness. Now, to bring that back to your 176 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 2: question about where does this come from, it comes from 177 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 2: early life experiences. 178 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 4: If I have. 179 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 2: Lived a life where I have in some way internalized 180 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: the message that there is something wrong with me, I 181 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 2: may develop these narcissistic, grandiose ways of coping as a 182 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 2: way to manage that feeling of shame and worthlessness within me. 183 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 2: So that's one pathway to developing these narcissistic traits. The 184 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: other pathway we see is where someone from very early 185 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 2: on in life has been overindulged and told not just 186 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 2: that they're special, but that they're more special than other people. 187 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 2: So if you think about this, little Freddy's got his 188 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: soccer game on this Saturday, and Mum and Dad are 189 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: on the sideline saying to the coach, Freddy should play 190 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 2: the whole game, when actually everyone only gets to play 191 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 2: half a game, but Freddy should play the whole game. 192 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 2: It's this idea that my child is special and different 193 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 2: rules should apply to him as opposed to all the 194 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: other kids. It's the people that rock up to the 195 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: airport and go I shouldn't have to wait in this line. 196 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 2: I should be able to go to the front of 197 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 2: the line. Right, It's this idea that the rules that 198 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 2: apply to everyone else don't apply to me. I'm in 199 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 2: some way more special, and that this is a message 200 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 2: that some parents also give their children. So this is 201 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 2: the other trajectory and pathway to developing that narcissistic, grandiose 202 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 2: personality style. But as I said, this is less common 203 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: than the pathway that's rooted in shame. 204 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: So kind of circling back to the spectrum you gave 205 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: us around the personality disorder and using experiencing narcissism. I'm 206 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: really curious because i want to bust some myths and 207 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: I'm curious to know what's the difference between narcissism versus 208 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: having narcissistic behaviors, Like, is there a difference? 209 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: So I'd say there's a difference between having a narcissistic 210 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: personality style, right, because we can have an agreeable personality 211 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: style or an introverted personality style. We can have all 212 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: these sort of features to our personality without it being 213 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 2: a diagnosis. So some people have more narcissistic styles to 214 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: their personality. The other end of that spectrum is a 215 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 2: clinical diagnosis and a disorder where the narcissistic traits are 216 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: so strong that, like with any clinical diagnosis, they're causing 217 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 2: some sort of negative impact in a person's day to 218 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: day life. 219 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 4: If I am going through the world. 220 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 2: And I'm very unagreeable, an antagonistic, and I lack empathy 221 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 2: and I'm not willing to put myself in the shoes 222 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 2: of others, and I manipulate and I control, I'm going 223 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: to end up with some real problems in my life, 224 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: probably into personal problems. But maybe it's trouble keeping a job, 225 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 2: Maybe it's trouble keeping a relationship. Maybe it's I develop 226 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: some sort of an addiction. As a result, that person 227 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: who meets those diagnostic criterias is going to be struggling 228 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 2: in some way. 229 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: When you were kind of talking about the mild characteristics 230 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: of narcissism, I was like, Oh my gosh, I think 231 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: I do that. So does that mean like I might 232 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: be a. 233 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 2: Narcissist I can assure you you're not a. 234 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 4: Shiny let's clear that up right now. 235 00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 2: But we all exhibit some of these traits. I'm sure 236 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: there have been times in my life where someone's been 237 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 2: telling a great story and I'm like, oh, let me 238 00:13:58,440 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 2: tell you about that time. 239 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 4: I went to Hawaii. 240 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 2: If I hadn't cut off what they're saying, that's normal 241 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 2: human behavior. I'm sure there's times where maybe I could 242 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 2: have been more empathetic towards someone than what I actually was. Right, 243 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 2: So we don't ever want to look at just one 244 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 2: of these traits in isolation and in an isolated experience. 245 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 2: What we're looking for is patterns through a person's life. 246 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 2: It's not that one time I accidentally cut someone off 247 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 2: midstory and then feel. 248 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 4: Bad about it afterwards. 249 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 2: It's whether I do that every single time I have 250 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 2: a conversation with that person. 251 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: I really like that the isolated experience versus the pattern. 252 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: So what does it actually look like to coexist in 253 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: a relationship with a narcissist? 254 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 2: It can feel very confusing. What a person might experience 255 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: is this almost Jeckel and hide experience from the person 256 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: who has the narcissistic traits. So what I mean by 257 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: that a person who has narcissism, who feels very vulnerable, 258 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: full of shame. Right, they are working very hard every 259 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 2: day to protect themselves. So when they're in a situation 260 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 2: where they feel emotionally. 261 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 4: Safe, they can be really pleasant to be around. 262 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 2: They can be enjoyable, they can be often quite intelligent, 263 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 2: charismatic people, right, So they can be a real nice 264 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: side to that experience. However, the person who has such 265 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: deep seated feelings of shame and vulnerability and worthlessness can 266 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: very easily feel threatened. Now I don't mean physically threatened, 267 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: I mean emotionally threatened. So if they're with a partner 268 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: who challenges them, who provides feedback slash criticism, or who 269 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 2: says something that they don't agree with, they might be 270 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 2: very quick to react to that experience because it brings 271 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: up all those feelings of shame. No one likes to 272 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 2: feel shame, for any of us. It's an awful feeling 273 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: to sit in. So the person who is narcissistic will 274 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: protect themselves, but they will do it in a way 275 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 2: that often comes with some sort of attack, some sort 276 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 2: of inflation of self and put down of the other person. 277 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 2: So the twenty four hours of being in a relationship 278 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: with someone who is narcissistic can feel very confusing because 279 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 2: you can see a really lovely side to that person 280 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 2: and you can see a really mean side to that 281 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 2: person as well. 282 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: So, something that I've heard that narcissists do is especially 283 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: early on in a relationship, is love bombing. Can you 284 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: tell me more about love bombing? 285 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 4: Yes, this is true. 286 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 2: We often see early on in a romantic relationship patterns 287 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 2: of love bombing, and so, you know, we come up 288 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 2: with all these great terms, but what is love bombing? 289 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 4: It's essentially this notion. 290 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: Of the narcissistic person making the person their dating feel 291 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 2: like the most amazing, special, lovely, unique person that ever existed. 292 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 2: And my god, who doesn't like to. 293 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 4: Feel like that? Right, It's why it's very effective. We 294 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 4: love to feel special. 295 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it might sound like a narcissistic person saying 296 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 2: to someone else, I've never met anyone like you. You 297 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 2: are incredible. You are so special. I've never had such 298 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 2: deep and meaningful conversations with someone. It's amazing how we 299 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 2: can connect on such an incredible level. You and I 300 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: are very aligned in the way that we think. That 301 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 2: could be an example and so the person on the 302 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 2: receiving end is like. 303 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 4: Huh, well look at me. Go right, this feels nice. 304 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 2: I feel special, I feel really seen, I feel really valued, 305 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 2: I feel really important. 306 00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 4: But the thing is it happens too quickly. 307 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 2: Right, this might happen like on the first or second 308 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 2: date and way too intensely. That is, we might actually 309 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 2: feel super connected with someone, but to have those very 310 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: strong conversations on a second date, I would be like, who, 311 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 2: let's hold our horses and let's really just get to 312 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 2: know each other first. And it then could be things 313 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 2: like I could see a future with you, I could 314 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 2: see us having kids together. I can't wait to save 315 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: money so that we can buy a house together. 316 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 4: It could be all these kinds of. 317 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 2: Things where we're then projecting to the future as well. 318 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: But it's all designed to make that person feel so 319 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 2: incredibly special that they then are in a position of vulnerability. 320 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: It's really interesting because I fully get the world of 321 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: love bombing, But how do you discern between maybe this 322 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: guy's actually just really kind guy, he's really just emotionally 323 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: it tuned, versus it might actually be more of a 324 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: strategy from a narcissist. 325 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 2: Think about if it sounds a little bit too good 326 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 2: to be true, Like, do you really think this person 327 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 2: has fallen in love with you on the second date? 328 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 2: Would you fall in love with someone on a second date? 329 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 2: I mean, for me, it's a bit hard to imagine, 330 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 2: you know, would you be saying to someone I've never 331 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 2: met anyone like you, like you are so special and 332 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: I've never had these kind of conversations. I'd be like 333 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: I have, you know, like I've met lots of special people. 334 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 2: I mean, you're one of them, but are You're not 335 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 2: the only ones. So it's this, it's this feeling of 336 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 2: special that comes with isolation, like you are the only 337 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 2: person who's ever made me feel this way. You really 338 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 2: get me in a way that other people haven't. It 339 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 2: comes with this sort of separation. It's different to I'm 340 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 2: really getting along with you and this feels like we're 341 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: having a nice time. Yeah, that's great. But when it's 342 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: like you're the only person who has ever made me 343 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 2: feel like I'm really seen and heard. 344 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 4: Well, that rings alarm bells for me. 345 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: Okay, So are there gender differences in narcissism. 346 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: We see both males and females can display narcissistic traits, 347 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 2: and they're quite similar, right, the control, the power struggle, 348 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 2: the grandiosity. What we might see is in different situations, 349 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 2: we might notice a male narcissist more than a female narcissist. 350 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 2: So if we think about the workplace, for example, I'm 351 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 2: just going to give a very stereotypical example of maybe 352 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 2: an older male who's very high up in the hierarchy 353 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 2: in a workplace who exhibits those narcissistic tendencies. We might 354 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 2: see that more so in men than we would women. 355 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 2: But when we think about intimate relationships, women can also 356 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 2: display narcissistic traits. I think one of the key differences 357 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 2: that I want to highlight is when it comes to 358 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 2: things like abuse. 359 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 4: We only have to look at the news to. 360 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 2: See that women are significantly more vulnerable when it comes 361 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 2: to leaving a relationship with a male narcissistic partner. And 362 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: we know that the time of leaving is the riskiest 363 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 2: time for a woman, and it's the time where we 364 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: often see things like murder come to the forefront, even 365 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 2: if there hasn't been a history of physical abuse in 366 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: that relationship. Now, that's not a dynamic that we see 367 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 2: in the reverse. 368 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: So one of the traits. Is love bombing that one 369 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: of the behaviors that a narcissist does. But what about 370 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: gas lighting because we hear this a lot, especially in 371 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: these kind of relationships. 372 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 4: Yes, gas lighting is common. 373 00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 2: It's a form of control and manipulation, and for the 374 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 2: person who's on the receiving end of gas lighting, it 375 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 2: can be totally discombobulating, right, like you lose your sense 376 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 2: of reality. Gas Lighting is essentially where one person denies reality. 377 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: So a partner might say to the narcissistic person, oh, 378 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 2: but you said X y Z. 379 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 4: The other day and they'll be like no, I didn't. 380 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 4: Or did you move my cup? And they did, but 381 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 4: they'll be like, no, I didn't. 382 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 2: So it's this denial of reality that for the person 383 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: who's on the receiving end, can make them feel absolutely crazy. 384 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 2: Like literally, people who have experienced narcissistic abuse will come 385 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 2: into the therapy room and say, I feel like I'm 386 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 2: losing my mind, Like am I going crazy? Or is 387 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 2: something happening here? Because they literally feel like they're losing 388 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 2: their marbles. 389 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: That's really it's a scary place to be, like questioning 390 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: your own reality as. 391 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 4: Well questioning your own sanity. 392 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: So do narcissists know that they're doing what they're doing? 393 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 4: Yes and no? 394 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 2: Okay, I think it varies person to person on their 395 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 2: level of insights. 396 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 4: These are patterns that. 397 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,719 Speaker 2: Develop over the course of someone's life, and we're really 398 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 2: talking from kind of child and adolescent years all the 399 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 2: way through adulthood. So these patterns will become ingrained in 400 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 2: a person. Whether they have awareness of those is another 401 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 2: question that's hard to sort of give a blanket answer to. 402 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 2: I think some people with narcissistic styles will have caught 403 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 2: on that behaving in a certain way gives them some 404 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 2: sort of outcome. I don't think they necessarily walk into 405 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,959 Speaker 2: a first date and go, I'm gonna love bumb this person, 406 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 2: but they may know that making someone feel special and 407 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 2: seen gets them some sort of positive feedback in return, 408 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: or by getting angry and criticizing their partner that the 409 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: partner stops talking and stops, you know, creating problems quote 410 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 2: unquote in the relationship. So they will have recognized that 411 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 2: these patterns work in some way, how consciously they set 412 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 2: out in their data use them. 413 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 4: I would put question marks over. 414 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: That, Okay, So can narcissists actually change It depends who 415 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: you ask. 416 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 4: There are different schools of thought on this. 417 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 2: My view is yes, many can not all perhaps. However, 418 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 2: getting the narcissists into the therapy room to do the 419 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: self reflective work to change is. 420 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 4: A very hard process. 421 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 2: People often don't willingly come to therapy if they are 422 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 2: displaying narcissistic traits because part of that goes against that grandiosity, 423 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 2: that sense of self importance and being special and righteous. 424 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 2: Right going into a therapy room and listening to the 425 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 2: feedback someone else has to give you about who you 426 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 2: are is not in alignment with the coping strategy that 427 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 2: they have built up for themselves. Once a person can 428 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 2: come into the room and we can start to have 429 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 2: that conversation, there are definitely ways in which we can 430 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 2: help work with those narcissistic traits and work to ultimately 431 00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 2: not change the narcissism, but change the shame. If I 432 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 2: can get past in the therapy room someone's grandiose exterior 433 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 2: and go, you know what, I can see that that 434 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 2: helps you cope life, It helps you cope in the world. 435 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 2: You hang on to that, but when you're in the 436 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 2: therapy room, let's take off that armor. 437 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 4: Let's just put it to the side. Temporarily. 438 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 2: Let's look at the stuff that's underneath that, the stuff 439 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 2: you don't feel good, the stuff that makes you feel worthless. 440 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 2: Let's do that, and then when you leave the room, 441 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: put your armor back on and go back out into 442 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 2: the world. If I can get a person to sit 443 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 2: in the therapy chair and do that with me, we 444 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 2: can make some great progress. 445 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 1: I love that because it's a little bit like you're 446 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: doing some emotional engineering, like in the therapy room, which 447 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: sounds really effective. 448 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 2: And everyone has different ways of coping, right, This is 449 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 2: why I started this topic saying I want to talk 450 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 2: about it sensitively because the narcissist has developed a way 451 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 2: of coping with their own internal experience that feels awful, 452 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 2: and we all have ways of coping. They're not always 453 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 2: the best ways of coping, but they're coping nonetheless. And 454 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 2: if I can work with someone who has these narcissistic 455 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 2: traits and identify that this, this is your way of 456 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 2: coping in the world, to feel like you can survive 457 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 2: day to day, to feel like you're not threatened day 458 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 2: to day, to feel like you can cope, and we 459 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 2: can recognize. 460 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 4: That for what it is. 461 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 2: That then allows us to kind of be flexible with it. 462 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 2: I don't have to hold on to it so tightly. 463 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 2: I can choose to walk into a room and put 464 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 2: on my sort of top dog armor and feel a 465 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 2: little bit grandiose and important. 466 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 4: But I can also choose to then tone that down 467 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 4: as well. 468 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: So we know with psychopaths there's a lack of empathy. 469 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: With narcissists, do they have the capability to love? 470 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 2: Yes, narcissists can love. However, this is again where we 471 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 2: come back to this spectrum, right, There is so much 472 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 2: to unpack with narcissism. People who have quite extreme forms 473 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 2: of narcissism and more that narcissistic personality disorder, will sometimes 474 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 2: see other people in their life as almost objects, right, 475 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 2: people through which they can get what we refer to 476 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 2: as narcissistic supply, the thing that makes them feel good 477 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 2: about themselves. So they may love someone, but they may 478 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 2: also feel like they're using that person to get their 479 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 2: own self love and self worth and validation in life 480 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: as well. It's different to say like psychopathy or a psychopath, 481 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: where psychopaths are cold and callous, they lack empathy and 482 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 2: they lack remorse. Right, So this feeling of if I've 483 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 2: hurt someone, I then don't actually feel bad about it. 484 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 2: This moves more into the spectrum of what we refer 485 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 2: to as antisocial traits or antisocial personality disorders, where we 486 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 2: see some really kind of cold, callous, criminal behaviors that 487 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 2: can unfold. That's different to the narcissist who is really 488 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 2: just overwhelmed by shame and deeply actually wants to be 489 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 2: loved themselves. 490 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 4: Right. 491 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 2: This is again why we talk about this so sensitively. 492 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 2: The narcissist wants love, they want validation, they want people 493 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 2: to like them, and they just have some really unhealthy 494 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 2: ways of getting that need met. 495 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 1: After the shop rate, doctor Anastasia is going to tell 496 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: you the steps to take to deal with a narcissist. Anastasia, 497 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: what do you want to teach us today to manage 498 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: the narcissists in our lives? 499 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 2: So I'm going to come at this from two angles, because, 500 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 2: as we've said, narcissism can exist on a spectrum. 501 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 4: So let's talk. 502 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: About how to manage the annoying friend who's got some 503 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 2: narcissistic flavors to their personality, and then we'll talk about 504 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 2: how to manage the potentially dangerous partner that someone might have, 505 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 2: because how we manage those situations is going to vary significantly. 506 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 4: Let's start with the annoying friends listeners. 507 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 2: I don't know if you have one of these friends 508 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 2: out there, but I'm talking about the friend who likes 509 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: to be the center of attention, who likes to tell 510 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 2: all their stories, who cuts other people off so that 511 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 2: they can talk about themselves, likes to circle every conversation 512 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: back to themselves, but not just themselves, also how great 513 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 2: they are, or what they've recently achieved, or the lovely 514 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 2: compliment that they got about their hair as they were 515 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 2: walking down the street. They want to tell you about 516 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 2: it so that you know that they were complimented. 517 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 4: On their hair. 518 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: Right, it's the person, the friend that we have that 519 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 2: always likes to choose where we go and have lunch 520 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 2: because it's about them, right, How to deal with this friend? 521 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 4: First up, I ask. 522 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 2: People to reflect on how much do you want this 523 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 2: friend in your life right now? That's not a loaded question. 524 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 2: It might sound like it, but I can promise you 525 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 2: it's not. It's a true reflection on how closely do 526 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 2: you want to hold this person in your orbit? Do 527 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 2: you want to have them as one of your closest 528 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 2: friends or are they maybe someone that you can interact with, 529 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 2: you know, once a month, once every six months, only 530 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 2: in a group social situation where there's a bit of buffering, right, 531 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 2: we can determine how close or far away we hold 532 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 2: someone in our life. So that's the first question I 533 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 2: would ask you to reflect on if you've got one 534 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 2: of these friends or these people in your life and 535 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 2: you have some capacity to put space and distance into 536 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: the relationship. The next part is around asserting boundaries. Now, 537 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 2: last episode, we'd had a whole segment on how to 538 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 2: be assertive, right, So if you want more on that, 539 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 2: go listen to our workplace assertiveness episode. But for this topic, 540 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 2: I want you to really reflect on the boundaries you 541 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 2: have that are. 542 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 4: Being pushed or that are being crossed. Right. 543 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 2: So this might sound something like, really value our friendship 544 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 2: and I love hanging out with you, but can we 545 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: take some turns in picking the place where we go 546 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: for lunch. It might sound something like, I really value 547 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 2: our friendship, but I would like our conversations to just 548 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 2: be a bit more balanced. It might sound something like 549 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 2: I look, I love you, but I really don't appreciate 550 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 2: it when you tease me about things, and particularly when 551 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 2: you tease me in front of other people, doesn't make 552 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 2: me feel good about myself. 553 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: Right. 554 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 4: This is us asserting our boundaries. 555 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 2: Now, that's almost as much as we can do because 556 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 2: we have no control over how the other person responds, right, 557 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 2: and it is very likely that we might get a pushback. 558 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 2: Oh but I was only joking. I wasn't really teasing you. 559 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 2: I was only joking. Everyone knows it was a bit 560 00:31:58,400 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 2: of fun. 561 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 4: Or Yeah, why do you say that. 562 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 2: We're always going that we're always talking about me? We 563 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 2: talk about you too. You talked about your trip to Hawaii. Right. 564 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that these boundaries are gonna land. All 565 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 2: I'm saying is it's what you can do to protect 566 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 2: yourself and to assert yourself. Because we don't want to 567 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 2: be in a situation where we feel like we are 568 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 2: being disrespected by someone else and then further disrespecting ourselves 569 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 2: by not speaking up. I would say when setting these boundaries, 570 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 2: be gentle and maybe avoid too much confrontation. Again, the 571 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 2: narcissistic person will feel more criticized and more threatened than 572 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 2: the average person getting this feedback from you, and that 573 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 2: is because they have that deep emotional wound of shame 574 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 2: and of worthlessness. So when you give them this feedback, 575 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 2: that's going to get triggered up. So we would expect 576 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: a reaction if they don't have the insight, a reaction 577 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 2: that probably isn't going to be as helpful as we 578 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 2: might like it to be. So I would say, yes, 579 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 2: assert your boundary, but also be willing to step away 580 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: avoid too much confrontation. The other thing is that these relationships, 581 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 2: these situations, they can be quite challenging to navigate, and 582 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 2: having some support in your life if you do have 583 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 2: a person who is narcissistic around you, having that support 584 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 2: can be really important, whether that be professional support or 585 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,959 Speaker 2: whether that be maybe another friend or you know, a 586 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 2: family member where you can say, I've got this friend, 587 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: we've been friends for a long time. I know she's 588 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 2: a great person, but there's this part of our interaction 589 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 2: and of the dynamic that also doesn't feel so good. 590 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: So how do we know when we're just done with 591 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: the relationship with the narcissist? 592 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 4: When's it time to call it quits? 593 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 2: Yep, Any relationship, and particularly like a friendship like we've 594 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 2: been talking about, has got to be give and take. 595 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 2: There's got to be reciprocity. We've got to feel. 596 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 4: Like we give and we get. 597 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 2: If you feel like you have this kind of friend 598 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 2: and doing a lot of giving, but you're not getting 599 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 2: a lot in return, that's when I would really say, 600 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 2: how is this friendship serving you in your life? Serving 601 00:34:23,319 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 2: might sound like a harsh word, but really, any dynamic 602 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,519 Speaker 2: we have, particularly if it's a friendship, we want to 603 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 2: feel like we're getting something from it. Is that it 604 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 2: serves me because I have a good time? Is it 605 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 2: that I feel like I can open up to this person? 606 00:34:36,359 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 2: Is it that I can be really vulnerable with them? 607 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: You know? 608 00:34:38,879 --> 00:34:41,559 Speaker 2: What is it that I'm getting from this dynamic? Why 609 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 2: is this friendship and this relation important to me? Why 610 00:34:44,759 --> 00:34:48,479 Speaker 2: am I holding onto it? Really reflect on those questions, 611 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,519 Speaker 2: and I think if you can't come up with some 612 00:34:51,279 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 2: pretty good answers, it might be time to consider calling 613 00:34:56,799 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 2: it quits. 614 00:34:57,919 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 1: And I can imagine like it is. It's such a 615 00:35:00,399 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: heavy loaded question and can bring up a lot because 616 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: change is a lot, especially we've had a lot of 617 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,399 Speaker 1: history with someone, so I think it's definitely layering that compassion, right, 618 00:35:10,319 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: So what about the dangerous partner? 619 00:35:12,919 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 4: How do we approach that very differently. 620 00:35:16,399 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 2: So this is a really serious topic, right, And so 621 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 2: I'm going to start off by saying, if you think 622 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 2: you are in a dangerous relationship, please seek out some 623 00:35:32,279 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 2: help before. 624 00:35:33,279 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 4: You do anything. 625 00:35:34,759 --> 00:35:37,639 Speaker 2: In fact, my number one piece of advice is going 626 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 2: to be don't just leave right now, right because leaving, 627 00:35:42,479 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 2: as important as it is, is also incredibly risky. 628 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:48,519 Speaker 4: Right. The data tells us. 629 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,879 Speaker 2: That the most dangerous time for a woman to leave 630 00:35:50,919 --> 00:35:55,079 Speaker 2: an abusive relationship is when she's preparing to leave, when 631 00:35:55,120 --> 00:36:00,039 Speaker 2: she does leave, and the two months after leaving, right, 632 00:36:00,479 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 2: that's the time when she is most vulnerable to things 633 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 2: like murder. So this is really serious, and we want 634 00:36:05,839 --> 00:36:08,359 Speaker 2: to ensure that when someone does leave a relationship that 635 00:36:08,399 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 2: they have all the protection and the resources in place 636 00:36:12,759 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 2: to be safe. The other really risky time for a 637 00:36:15,759 --> 00:36:19,039 Speaker 2: woman in an abusive relationship is also when she has 638 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 2: a child, around that perinatal period when she's pregnant and 639 00:36:23,439 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 2: in the early stages of having the child as well. 640 00:36:26,399 --> 00:36:30,919 Speaker 2: If we understand the narcissist and the narcissists need for 641 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 2: attention and supply, when a woman has a child to 642 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,039 Speaker 2: focus on, the focus no longer becomes the partner, and 643 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 2: that's a really risky time for the female in that relationship. 644 00:36:45,919 --> 00:36:49,079 Speaker 2: So the biggest piece of advice I have is get 645 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,159 Speaker 2: the help, get the support to be able to leave 646 00:36:52,399 --> 00:36:56,439 Speaker 2: and do so safely. Now, some excellent resources one eight 647 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,519 Speaker 2: hundred respect. If you are finding yourself in a situation 648 00:36:59,959 --> 00:37:02,039 Speaker 2: or you're even just questioning. You don't even have to 649 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 2: be sure that you're in a situation where there is 650 00:37:04,359 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 2: abuse or there is control, but even if you're questioning it, 651 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,519 Speaker 2: contact the one eight hundred Respect hot Life. They have 652 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 2: counselors who are professionals and experienced in the exact space 653 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,639 Speaker 2: of domestic violence and domestic abuse, and they can help 654 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 2: you navigate this. The website also has some really fantastic resources. 655 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,439 Speaker 2: One of the ones that I've at times given my 656 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,919 Speaker 2: clients has been they talk you through how to pack 657 00:37:30,959 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 2: an emergency bag. 658 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 4: If you find yourself at. 659 00:37:33,479 --> 00:37:36,559 Speaker 2: Home and in a very unsafe situation where you need 660 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,679 Speaker 2: to just get out of the house, you can have 661 00:37:39,759 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 2: this sort of emergency bag packed and it tells you 662 00:37:42,839 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 2: all the essentials that you should have, so things like identification, money, 663 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 2: your passport, birth certificate, any medications that you take. Just 664 00:37:51,799 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 2: kind of like that emergency bag, which might not be 665 00:37:55,319 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 2: something someone's planned for or has. 666 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 4: Thought through before. But there's this list you can follow 667 00:37:59,919 --> 00:38:00,639 Speaker 4: of what to pack. 668 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,999 Speaker 2: So I guess the key message I'm trying to get 669 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 2: across here is that being in an abusive relationship is 670 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,479 Speaker 2: incredibly dangerous, but we really want to ensure that a 671 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 2: person is as best supported as they possibly can to 672 00:38:17,439 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 2: make that step to leave when they're ready. Now, leaving 673 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:27,119 Speaker 2: is not easy. The data tells us that, on average, 674 00:38:27,479 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 2: it takes a person six to seven attempts to actually 675 00:38:31,799 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 2: leave that relationship before they successfully leave it. So many 676 00:38:35,959 --> 00:38:37,999 Speaker 2: times when I've had people in the clinic who are 677 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,559 Speaker 2: saying that they've been in some sort of abusive relationship 678 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 2: or they're in an abusive relationship, they may have recognized it, 679 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 2: but it took them multiple attempts to leave, and there's 680 00:38:47,439 --> 00:38:50,519 Speaker 2: no judgment to that. As we said, these relationships can 681 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,079 Speaker 2: be incredibly confusing. There's a lot of tactics, a lot 682 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 2: of manipulation that's at play, and it's not always just 683 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 2: as simple as getting up, packing your bags and going, 684 00:39:00,919 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 2: So keep in mind that it can often take multiple 685 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 2: attempts before someone gets there. 686 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: I didn't even know that statistic, So that's just yeah, 687 00:39:08,799 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: it's really big. I'm just process that and it really 688 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: just goes to show I'm just really grateful for the 689 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,919 Speaker 1: resources that are out there, that you really are there 690 00:39:16,919 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: to support people that are in those situations too. 691 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 2: Yep, one eight hundred respect their website, their hotline, and 692 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 2: also White Ribbon have some great resources as well that 693 00:39:25,279 --> 00:39:25,959 Speaker 2: you can look at. 694 00:39:26,279 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll make sure to put that into the show notes. 695 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: After the shotbreak, we hear from a woman who was 696 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: accused of being a narcissist herself. Is she stay with us. 697 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 2: Berb bib Bibby, I'm having a serious Cristy the BRB 698 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 2: having a crisis. 699 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,679 Speaker 1: That's right, it's our BRB having a crisis segment where 700 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: doctor Anastasia gives advice to one of you our listeners. Today, 701 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: we are hearing from Kate. 702 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 5: I got into an argument with a close friend recently, 703 00:39:59,799 --> 00:40:02,039 Speaker 5: and in the middle of it, she said she thought 704 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 5: I was being narcissistic. It caught me completely off guard, 705 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 5: and honestly, I haven't been able to stop thinking about 706 00:40:08,879 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 5: it since. I don't know if she really meant it 707 00:40:11,759 --> 00:40:13,399 Speaker 5: or if it was just something said in the heat 708 00:40:13,439 --> 00:40:16,479 Speaker 5: of the moment, But maybe I am too focused on 709 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,159 Speaker 5: myself without realizing it. If I'm being honest, I do 710 00:40:20,279 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 5: like being the center of attention. But I thought that 711 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 5: was just my extroverted personality. I don't know how do 712 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 5: I find out if I am being a narcissist? And 713 00:40:30,279 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 5: is it too late to improve myself? 714 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 1: Oh that's so hard? 715 00:40:34,759 --> 00:40:37,079 Speaker 2: Okay, you know what I want to say, I too 716 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 2: sometimes like being the center of attention. 717 00:40:39,479 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 4: Don't we all what I do must do? 718 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,519 Speaker 2: And I too am an extroverted personality. I like to 719 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,719 Speaker 2: tell stories. I like to talk into a microphone on 720 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,639 Speaker 2: a podcast. You should do that. 721 00:40:51,279 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 4: But I guess what I want. 722 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 2: To say, Kate, is there's a difference between being extroverted 723 00:40:55,799 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 2: and liking to talk and being a bit of the 724 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,959 Speaker 2: center of attention versus being a narcissist. The fact that 725 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 2: you have been thinking about this comment since your friend 726 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:11,079 Speaker 2: said it is a probably good indicator that maybe you 727 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,879 Speaker 2: are not that narcissistic. You know, you're able to reflect 728 00:41:13,919 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 2: on this comment. You're taking it seriously. You're looking inward 729 00:41:17,359 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 2: at yourself, and you're thinking about the impact you know, 730 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 2: the way you acted. 731 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 4: Might have had on your friend. 732 00:41:23,359 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 2: These are all great indicators that you have great qualities 733 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 2: for self reflection. 734 00:41:27,799 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 4: So well done. 735 00:41:29,279 --> 00:41:32,439 Speaker 2: What I would suggest is, if the friendship calls for 736 00:41:32,479 --> 00:41:35,119 Speaker 2: it and you are really wondering what your friend meant 737 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,559 Speaker 2: by it, can you have a conversation with her? Can 738 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 2: you approach her and bring her up and be like, hey, look, 739 00:41:41,319 --> 00:41:44,399 Speaker 2: I've just been thinking about what you said the other 740 00:41:44,439 --> 00:41:46,919 Speaker 2: week where you said I was being a bit narcissistic, 741 00:41:46,959 --> 00:41:48,839 Speaker 2: and oh my god, am I narcissistic? 742 00:41:49,319 --> 00:41:51,679 Speaker 4: What made you say that? Where did that come from? 743 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 2: Your friend might be like, well, look, I was just 744 00:41:54,279 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 2: having a bit of a dig and I wanted to 745 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 2: piss you off, so I decided to call you a narcissist. Okay, 746 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 2: unhealthy conflict, But you know, that's another topic. But maybe 747 00:42:02,359 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 2: there is some underlying resentment there that came out through 748 00:42:06,799 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 2: your friend using. 749 00:42:07,879 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 4: This word narcissistic. 750 00:42:09,799 --> 00:42:12,879 Speaker 2: Maybe she feels like, hey, I want to be able 751 00:42:12,919 --> 00:42:15,119 Speaker 2: to share my stories too, I want to be able 752 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 2: to choose the cafe we go to. I want to 753 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 2: feel like I've got more space to be myself in 754 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,119 Speaker 2: this friendship. Maybe that's what she was trying to communicate, 755 00:42:23,399 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 2: And if you're someone who's open to that, feedback, then 756 00:42:26,839 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 2: go you Kate like, that's fantastic. So I would say, 757 00:42:30,439 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 2: if the relationship and friendship calls for it, have a 758 00:42:34,319 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 2: conversation with your friend find out what she meant. But 759 00:42:37,439 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 2: in the meantime, well done for doing the self reflection. 760 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,599 Speaker 2: And I think that probably means you don't have as 761 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 2: many narcissistic traits as you might be worried to do. 762 00:42:52,439 --> 00:42:55,399 Speaker 1: Oh, this was a big episode, And I feel like 763 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,999 Speaker 1: what you've really just illustrated for all of us is 764 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,519 Speaker 1: that narcissism, like so many parts of the human personality, 765 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 1: is a spectrum. It can range from annoying and frustrating 766 00:43:05,359 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 1: to dangerous and abusive. Can you give us a recap 767 00:43:08,359 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 1: that we can come back to when we need a reminder? 768 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 2: Sure can, And look, I feel like we've only just 769 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,359 Speaker 2: scraped the surface on the topic of narcissism. We could 770 00:43:16,359 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 2: have a whole podcast just dedicated to this topic. 771 00:43:19,759 --> 00:43:21,919 Speaker 4: But for the cheat sheet, let me run you through it. 772 00:43:22,479 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 2: So, first off, narcissistic personality disorder is a diagnosable mental 773 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:33,119 Speaker 2: health condition, and there are treatments that exist. Second, narcissism 774 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:37,319 Speaker 2: exists on a spectrum. From the annoying friends all. 775 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:38,879 Speaker 4: The way up to an abusive partner. 776 00:43:39,799 --> 00:43:43,399 Speaker 2: Third, how we might manage a relationship with someone who 777 00:43:43,479 --> 00:43:50,519 Speaker 2: has narcissistic tendencies varies depending on the degree of narcissism. Four, 778 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,439 Speaker 2: if it's an annoying friend, set some clear boundaries, ask 779 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 2: for what you need. But if things don't change, reevaluate 780 00:43:58,520 --> 00:43:59,840 Speaker 2: this friendship in your life. 781 00:44:00,959 --> 00:44:01,239 Speaker 4: Five. 782 00:44:01,839 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 2: If you're in a relationship with someone who shows signs 783 00:44:04,839 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 2: of abuse, seek support on how to best make a 784 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:13,559 Speaker 2: plan to leave. Finally, as always, there are professionals who 785 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:14,759 Speaker 2: are available to help. 786 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 4: Now. 787 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,359 Speaker 2: Next week's conversation is an important one. It's about the 788 00:44:20,399 --> 00:44:23,919 Speaker 2: little voice in your head that tells you you're not 789 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,839 Speaker 2: good enough. Sometimes we call this imposter syndrome, but it 790 00:44:27,959 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 2: impacts virtually every part of our lives. 791 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,399 Speaker 4: It's a useful episode, so don't miss it. 792 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: If you have any burnie questions. There's a few ways 793 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,399 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us. Links are in the 794 00:44:38,399 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 1: show notes. 795 00:44:39,479 --> 00:44:43,479 Speaker 2: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't 796 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present 797 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 2: here should always take into account your personal history. The 798 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 2: executive producer of But Are You Happy is Niama Brown. 799 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,399 Speaker 1: Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer. 800 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,080 Speaker 2: Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown. 801 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,479 Speaker 1: I'm a Shani Dante. 802 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastasia Heronus. If this conversation brought up 803 00:45:06,759 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 2: any difficult feelings for you, we have links for more 804 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 2: resources in the show notes around the topics we discussed today. 805 00:45:13,879 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 2: You can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue 806 00:45:16,959 --> 00:45:20,319 Speaker 2: or Lifeline if you're wanting more immediate mental health support, 807 00:45:20,919 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 2: or contact one eight hundred respect if you need help 808 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 2: with domestic abuse. 809 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.