Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges
Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
Speaker 1: is recorded on.
Speaker 2: You know how we are preparing for our live show
Speaker 2: in May. Yes, we are, okay, And I try and
Speaker 2: get out of certain parts of it that I don't enjoy,
Speaker 2: which has for some reason gone from zero to one
Speaker 2: hundred very very fast.
Speaker 1: The rehearsals and the lyrics and the measurement.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I've been trying to tell you that I
Speaker 2: don't like to dance. Wasn't on my job application when
Speaker 2: I came here. I shouldn't have to. Anyway, They've got
Speaker 2: this new thing on Ancestry DNA where they have your traits.
Speaker 2: They have like forty traits, right, so think like morning
Speaker 2: on night person, do you require a lot of caffeine?
Speaker 2: Do mosquito mosquitos buy you all that stuff because.
Speaker 1: Mosquitoes don't bite her bite out of me?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Not only does it tell you what your traits are,
Speaker 2: but what parent you got them from?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: This is how amazing it is. Anyway, I was going
Speaker 2: through and apparently I do not possis s the DNA
Speaker 2: to learn choreography. It said there's a there's.
Speaker 3: Actually a spit in a stick to find that out.
Speaker 2: I feel like this is mine. You know how you
Speaker 2: use your adhd as a get our jail? This is mine, Mia.
Speaker 1: I feel a sick note coming on from Jesse Stephens.
Speaker 1: My doctor precludes me from having anticipates it.
Speaker 2: Said, I can't learn choreography. Totally different, DNA marker. I
Speaker 2: don't like dancing, yeah, said it said, you don't like dancing?
Speaker 1: Dancing? What about when you're drunk?
Speaker 2: Yeh, when I've had a few drinks actually dancing. But
Speaker 2: I don't want to dance right now?
Speaker 4: Did you?
Speaker 1: She did? I saw her doing that. Hello and welcome
Speaker 1: to Mama Mia out loud and to our Friday show
Speaker 1: where we take a break from the news cycle because
Speaker 1: holy hell is scary out there. Deep breaths, because today
Speaker 1: it's Friday, it's the thirty first of January, and we
Speaker 1: are talking about other stuff. I am Holly wayIn right,
Speaker 1: I'm mea.
Speaker 2: Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 1: And on today's show, there's a new item of clothing
Speaker 1: that the finger wagging trendsetters of gen Z have assigned
Speaker 1: just TikTok's sartorial binfire and we think we know why. Also,
Speaker 1: a viral essay has reignited a debate about whether there's
Speaker 1: any such thing as an a for effort recommendations which
Speaker 1: include a meal to eat while you're wearing your weighted vest,
Speaker 1: a movie that you'll sop through on a TV show
Speaker 1: about bitches, and our very best and worst of the week.
Speaker 1: But first, Mia Friedman, we're.
Speaker 3: Big fans of pettiness here on Mama Mer out loud
Speaker 3: or maybe that's just me, but no, I think Jesse,
Speaker 3: you're very petty.
Speaker 1: You like some pettiness?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do like a little bit of pettiness.
Speaker 3: I think it's an underrated personality trait. Personally, does being
Speaker 3: petty make you the bigger person? No, it makes you
Speaker 3: the smaller one, and sometimes that's okay. I'm excited to
Speaker 3: report that we've discovered a new form of petty behavior
Speaker 3: that's even more petty than the regular kind. It's more subtle,
Speaker 3: it's smaller, and it's easy to miss, but it can
Speaker 3: still be deeply satisfying.
Speaker 1: In case you missed.
Speaker 3: It, we learned about it via a viral tweet this
Speaker 3: week from a woman called bex Luthor, who wrote, there's
Speaker 3: someone in our team who behaves horribly to me, and
Speaker 3: whenever I have to type his name, I've taken to
Speaker 3: using a slightly smaller font.
Speaker 1: Size than for everyone else's. I love that. I love it.
Speaker 1: Micro pettiness is pettiness via.
Speaker 2: Stealth, Yes, And what I love about it is that
Speaker 2: it is a level of petty that makes the other
Speaker 2: person feel crazy. Because if I said to you, guys
Speaker 2: really weird. But every time Mia sends me an email,
Speaker 2: I swear she puts my name a little bit smaller,
Speaker 2: people would ye paranoid. Yeah, it would make you question
Speaker 2: your grasp on reality. But that means the person's really
Speaker 2: getting to you. And I love that.
Speaker 3: We have asked out loud as if they do any
Speaker 3: acts of micro pettiness, maybe in the workplace or in
Speaker 3: their life generally, Jesse, you've got one.
Speaker 2: One out Louder said that when someone in her family
Speaker 2: is really pissing her off, she'll go and sit in
Speaker 2: their usual seat, Like, say, there's a head of the
Speaker 2: table that someone normally sits in, so it puts everyone
Speaker 2: a little off. Kiltop sag.
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the outlauders said, I tell my best
Speaker 1: friend if her boyfriend is being mean to her she
Speaker 1: should just take small things from his house, nothing important,
Speaker 1: just inconvenient, like the base of his phone charge and
Speaker 1: leave the cord. Just take the plug, one of the
Speaker 1: stove dials, only one, the little spitty thing under the
Speaker 1: plate in the microwave, so it won't yes one shoe,
Speaker 1: but leave the other. That's great, that falls into the hole. Like,
Speaker 1: am I going crazy? Yeah? I love that.
Speaker 3: I've got some examples from out louders of admin pettiness.
Speaker 3: One person says, I'll stop using exclamation marks when I
Speaker 3: talk to this person over email or slack.
Speaker 2: It makes me feel like I'm being Yeah, that is
Speaker 2: my peak. Rude is when you get proper punctuality.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Someone else said that people often get her name
Speaker 3: wrong in emails, so she does the same back, calling
Speaker 3: them by their last name or spell their name wrong.
Speaker 3: Instead of signing off every email with many thanks, they
Speaker 3: just sign off their email with thanks.
Speaker 2: I realize that I have been guilty of micro pettiness
Speaker 2: in the last twenty four hours. I do this often,
Speaker 2: which is when I get up in the middle of
Speaker 2: the night with our baby, which has been happening a
Speaker 2: bit lately. I will send my husband a text message
Speaker 2: about something that's not very ard. But yesterday I did
Speaker 2: it at four fifteen. I went, we need milk, and
Speaker 2: I just it's like a marker of just going I'm awake.
Speaker 1: Just so you know, just so you know. Do you
Speaker 1: know what I used to do?
Speaker 3: Every time I was annoyed with my husband, I'd take
Speaker 3: off my wedding ring.
Speaker 2: That's not my friend, just petty.
Speaker 1: He never noticed. I wish I was more of an
Speaker 1: evil genius. Maybe I'm going to try and develop that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not genius enough.
Speaker 5: Hi, I'm married, David. I want to tell you about
Speaker 5: a new store I'm opening called lat Larry. Why am
Speaker 5: I getting into the coffee game? Because I went to
Speaker 5: this coffee shop next door and the guy was such
Speaker 5: a jerk that I felt like I had to do something.
Speaker 1: You know what.
Speaker 5: I got me a little Spots store.
Speaker 2: As the fashion correspondent on this show, I've come across
Speaker 2: some urgent news. I read an article this week on
Speaker 2: Muma Maya that told me, in no uncertain terms, that
Speaker 2: I a millennial. Must bury yet another of my beloved staples.
Speaker 2: There was the eyeliner. I remember they came from my eyeliner.
Speaker 1: Oh your winged eyeliner.
Speaker 2: Yep. Then they came from my skinny jeans. They came
Speaker 2: for my socks. Now I've got a bide part yep,
Speaker 2: visible socks, yeah, yep, yep, yep. And now I've got
Speaker 2: to wear the long ones. Now apparently we are doing
Speaker 2: bags wrong. So Nicola Dolf, who's the head of style
Speaker 2: at the Iconic, has declared the cross body bag done. Interestingly,
Speaker 2: you know who I see wear a cross body bag
Speaker 2: more than anyone else is this lady who thinks she's
Speaker 2: a fashion icon over.
Speaker 1: Here, although she wears like a cross phone strap thing
Speaker 1: a lot.
Speaker 3: I wear everything cross and it's for reasons of feminism
Speaker 3: and also disorganization, because I tend to lose things.
Speaker 1: Yes, right, keeps your hands free.
Speaker 2: Gen Z's in the office were asked how they felt
Speaker 2: about the cross body bag and if they were surprised
Speaker 2: by this news item, and here's what they said. Cross
Speaker 2: body bags are very millennial coded. Gen Z's are all
Speaker 2: about under the shoulder bag, big or small. Another said,
Speaker 2: it's not so much that the cross body bag is bad,
Speaker 2: it's more so you can spot a millennial out in
Speaker 2: the crowd with it. It's a millennial identifier.
Speaker 3: See gen x is are stoked because if someone thinks
Speaker 3: we're a millennial, that's a compliment. Thrilled. People who get
Speaker 3: really upset about these pronouncements from Gen Zed are millennials. Yes,
Speaker 3: how are you feeling? You don't wear a lot of
Speaker 3: cross body bags. You still wear like a backpack like
Speaker 3: Dora the Explorer.
Speaker 2: I was going to ask, how are we feeling about backpacks?
Speaker 2: They're in, They're still in, right, justipractice videos love a backpack.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you need to grab something, No, I do
Speaker 1: struggle with that because you have to take it off,
Speaker 1: put it down, pick it up, put it back on again.
Speaker 3: The reason I also like cross body bags, apart from
Speaker 3: having your hands free, is that it also can give
Speaker 3: a bit of color. It's like something going across your body.
Speaker 1: I thought, if you.
Speaker 2: Are a big busted woman, then the cross body bag
Speaker 2: has never worked.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2: It's like a seat belt. It's just it doesn't It
Speaker 2: just sits between, it kind of emphasizes.
Speaker 1: Sometimes.
Speaker 3: See, sometimes I find that it cuts because I am
Speaker 3: now a big bustard woman. Sometimes I find that it cuts.
Speaker 3: If I feel like I've got pillow bust, it cuts
Speaker 3: it in half. Dagally, I actually think it can be
Speaker 3: quite complimentary. I have a theory about why jen z
Speaker 3: are so obsessed with telling you millennials, millennials that you're old.
Speaker 3: And the difference between now and say, when we were
Speaker 3: in our teens or twenties, is that now pretty much
Speaker 3: everybody dresses the same. Like there are three generations of
Speaker 3: my family women who shop at Uniclo, my mother, me,
Speaker 3: my daughter. We're all buy the same kinds of items.
Speaker 2: Your mother and I wear the same shoes, tevas, Yes,
Speaker 2: we love a Tevah do love a teva?
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 3: My father and my son were the same kind of runners,
Speaker 3: so that was very different. Like if I think about
Speaker 3: my grandmother growing up and my grandfather, they didn't even
Speaker 3: wear jeans.
Speaker 1: So over the last couple of.
Speaker 3: Generations, there's been this blurring of you know, everyone chops
Speaker 3: at cotton On, everybody shops at Zara, whether it's a
Speaker 3: small label, I'm using those because there are labels that
Speaker 3: everybody's heard of. It's become very democratized. Why do you
Speaker 3: think that is because we don't want to look old.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think there's greater existential angst about getting old than
Speaker 2: ever before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think you've got four generations who are
Speaker 3: essentially the broad constructs of it addressing the same. Like
Speaker 3: they could be wearing sambas, they could be wearing jeans,
Speaker 3: and they could be wearing a graphic T shirt right,
Speaker 3: and they might wear it all in their own way,
Speaker 3: but they could all be wearing essentially the same. So
Speaker 3: what gen z's have to do because they don't want
Speaker 3: to look like their parents or their grandparents or their
Speaker 3: older millennial siblings, they have to pick on very small
Speaker 3: subtle aspects of it, specific aspects, and you know, demonize
Speaker 3: those and.
Speaker 1: Say they're the coders.
Speaker 3: So it's the socks, it's the bags. It's not like genes,
Speaker 3: it's the type of gen do.
Speaker 2: You think, Because I'm not convinced when I think about
Speaker 2: growing up or whatever, we've always laid shit on people
Speaker 2: older than us. That's not entirely new. Like I have
Speaker 2: been giving my mum shit about what she wears since
Speaker 2: I could speak. I wonder if the difference is that
Speaker 2: we used to bitch in private and now we bitch
Speaker 2: on TikTok, Like is it that now we're just so
Speaker 2: open about Oh this makes you look cold, this makes
Speaker 2: you look cold?
Speaker 1: Well? You also now you get to watch the reaction. See,
Speaker 1: millennials are in this very particular moment of realizing they're
Speaker 1: not the young ones anymore, and that's a very painful
Speaker 1: space to be because you go through in this relatively
Speaker 1: short time, oh I'm the young one at work to like,
Speaker 1: oh I'm not more, and it's jarring and you're trying
Speaker 1: to figure it out. And now when people mock your
Speaker 1: side part or your skinny jeans, because I think me
Speaker 1: is right, it's all about the micro although let me
Speaker 1: tell you me. If I walked in here dressed in
Speaker 1: the clothes that my fifteen year old daughter was, oh.
Speaker 4: My god, you people would throw me out onto the street,
Speaker 4: like giant white leg jeans.
Speaker 1: And teeny tiny crop tops. My god, can you imagine.
Speaker 1: But anyway, that aside the little markers of it, they
Speaker 1: see how upset you get. People get furious about this.
Speaker 1: What do you mean I can't wear my skinny jeans?
Speaker 1: What do you mean my socks aren't cool? And they
Speaker 1: get so upset. And that's fun for the young people
Speaker 1: to see the old people getting upset about stuff, Whereas
Speaker 1: you used to not see it so much, but now
Speaker 1: it's like hilarious watching us get upset about sock.
Speaker 3: I think the problem is we're just too cool. Like
Speaker 3: mothers and daughters go and get tattoos together.
Speaker 1: That's what I did. It's this is what everyone's doing.
Speaker 1: It's not darling.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of people, like young people have always
Speaker 3: wanted to separate themselves from older people.
Speaker 1: We've never resisted aging more.
Speaker 3: And also old things have become cool, like you know,
Speaker 3: older people can wear sexy things and wear crop tops
Speaker 3: if they want to, although I will judge them for it.
Speaker 1: And younger people want.
Speaker 3: To wear daggy old man shoes or old woman shoes
Speaker 3: like you do.
Speaker 1: And so it's like norm core. It's all blurred.
Speaker 2: In the article on Mum and May, out Fran said,
Speaker 2: gen Z haven't lived through enough to understand all the
Speaker 2: benefits of a cross body bag. And I think that
Speaker 2: that's very true. It's like maybe we just have the wisdom.
Speaker 2: We have the wisdom of knowing that certain trends.
Speaker 3: Also, gen Z, you don't have any responsibility.
Speaker 2: No, you just can said I don't use a bag.
Speaker 1: You can just.
Speaker 3: Punching bag under your arm because you never have to
Speaker 3: lift your arm if you don't want to.
Speaker 2: Yes, And because they don't have to put their phone
Speaker 2: in their bag because they've never put their phone down.
Speaker 2: It's just attached to their point.
Speaker 3: We've got a funny ven diagram in our house because
Speaker 3: you know, my daughter, her girlfriend, my son, who's sixteen.
Speaker 3: My daughter's girlfriend has this ven diagreen where she's in
Speaker 3: the middle. She shares clothes with me, she shares clothes
Speaker 3: with Coco, she shares clothes with Remy, And even though Coco,
Speaker 3: Remy and I don't dress at all the same, we all.
Speaker 1: Share clothes with Jack.
Speaker 2: She's a hybrid.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you tried really really hard, you worked super duper hard.
Speaker 1: You didn't succeed, In fact, you failed. Should you be
Speaker 1: commended for effort over result? This is a familiar debate
Speaker 1: kicked off again by an essay by Adam Grant, who's
Speaker 1: one of the most prestigious and popular organizational psychologists of
Speaker 1: our time. We love organizational psychologists, don't we, because they
Speaker 1: know things, but they also make us more productive. He's
Speaker 1: the loveliest guy just to name dropped us quickly. Everyone
Speaker 1: loves that.
Speaker 3: I interviewed him for No Filter a few years ago,
Speaker 3: and he's amazing. He also co wrote Cheryl Sandberg's book
Speaker 3: that we love, Option B about dealing with grief. He's
Speaker 3: like the cool internet psychologist.
Speaker 1: And he also teaches university at the prestigious Warden School
Speaker 1: in the US, and he wrote an essay called No,
Speaker 1: you Don't get an A for effort at the end
Speaker 1: of last year about how he's noticed that his students
Speaker 1: are now frequently presenting him with their marks and complaining
Speaker 1: that they should have been higher because they tried really hard.
Speaker 1: He wrote, recently, at the end of a week long
Speaker 1: course with the light workload, multiple students had a new complaint.
Speaker 1: My grade doesn't reflect the effort I put into this course.
Speaker 1: High marks are for excellence, he writes, not grit. In
Speaker 1: the past, students understood that hard work was not sufficient
Speaker 1: and a required great work. And yet today many students
Speaker 1: expect to be rewarded for the quantity of their effort
Speaker 1: rather than the quality of their knowledge. Now, he goes
Speaker 1: on to explain that this isn't their fault. The young
Speaker 1: people I guess who are coming to him and talking
Speaker 1: about this. He says, we've had a shift that was
Speaker 1: made in educational work ago, which ended up entering the
Speaker 1: psyche of the mainstream that acknowledged that rewarding effort cultivates
Speaker 1: a strong work ethic in people and often reinforces learning.
Speaker 1: So it's a good thing to enforce that effort is
Speaker 1: a really good thing. It makes people want to work hard.
Speaker 1: But he argues that we might have taken it too far,
Speaker 1: not just at school or at UNI or on whatever
Speaker 1: course we might be taking, but in the workplace and
Speaker 1: even in relationships. Jesse, are you an a for effort person?
Speaker 2: This made me really think because the respect we have
Speaker 2: for effort I broadly agree with. I don't think this
Speaker 2: is the same as like a participation ribbon, giving everyone
Speaker 2: a participation ribbon. It's different because this is saying it's
Speaker 2: about growth, mindset and understanding that it's not fixed. It's
Speaker 2: not you're smart, you're not. You're good at netball, you're not.
Speaker 2: It's saying, if you try, it's something you'll get better,
Speaker 2: which is true. I love that, and I think that
Speaker 2: is how we should teach kids.
Speaker 3: Now. That's encouraging, Yeah, exactly, kind of demoralize.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's not rewarding you just for showing up. It's
Speaker 1: rewarding you for showing up and they're putting in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you had to decide if you're hiring
Speaker 2: someone for a job, I reckon you would go the
Speaker 2: hard worker over the person with natural ability any day.
Speaker 2: So conscientiousness in terms of like the beat five, I
Speaker 2: think the big five personality traits that you look at
Speaker 2: like there's openness, as neuroticism or that conscientiousness, those people
Speaker 2: that work hard. And I remember this from school. There
Speaker 2: were people that worked hard, and then there were people
Speaker 2: that didn't even study and would get really really good marks. Right,
Speaker 2: I can look at it and see who's more successful,
Speaker 2: and it was the people who put their head down
Speaker 2: and developed that work ethic succeeded. And I think that
Speaker 2: grit and resilience are really important qualities, and you generally
Speaker 2: get better at things when you have a good work ethic.
Speaker 2: In saying that, what this made me think about was
Speaker 2: how you can work really hard ineffectively. So there have
Speaker 2: been periods of my life where I know I've done this.
Speaker 2: In fact, the university exam really resonated. I turned up
Speaker 2: to university, I worked harder than I've ever worked, and
Speaker 2: I got about sixty in my essays. I just wasn't
Speaker 2: doing the work effectively. I was applying this other strategy
Speaker 2: that I'd always used to this new thing and failing
Speaker 2: at it and.
Speaker 1: The day I hadn't been in meta yet. You couldn't cheat.
Speaker 2: Putting your hand up and going. But I tried really
Speaker 2: hard on that isn't the point, and that's it's.
Speaker 3: An honorable So are you saying it's an honorable character trait?
Speaker 3: But it doesn't necessarily assure you anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and more honorable, which is what Adam Grant says,
Speaker 2: is to put your hand up and go to your
Speaker 2: lecture or whatever. I tried really hard in this. What
Speaker 2: am I missing?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: What can I do that's better? And it reminded me
Speaker 2: of do you remember this story? Blew my mind. At
Speaker 2: the Olympics, Cam McAvoy the fifty meter Australian gold medalist swimmer. Right,
Speaker 2: he was a first Australian man ever to win the
Speaker 2: fifty meter freestyle. I think it was his late thirties, right,
Speaker 2: like he was older than most.
Speaker 1: Happened at the last one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the last Olympics and he had been
Speaker 2: training for years, couldn't win it. At the beginning of
Speaker 2: his career, he would do seventy kilometers a week swimming
Speaker 2: when he trained for this Olympics, he did three kilometers
Speaker 2: a week and he just went, I'm going to change
Speaker 2: how I do it, and I'm going to train in
Speaker 2: a twenty five meter pool. And he won the gold medal.
Speaker 2: And I think you know how they say insanity. The
Speaker 2: definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting
Speaker 2: different results. It's like sometimes sitting down and this is
Speaker 2: what Adam Grant's all about, and going and putting in
Speaker 2: all this effort. It's not paying off, then your effort
Speaker 2: is misguided. It's misdirected. There must be a better way
Speaker 2: to do it, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you can see how it's happened because
Speaker 3: it did start out in parenting. It's funny that when
Speaker 3: we were talking about this earlier today, Holly and I
Speaker 3: who when your kids get to a certain age, you
Speaker 3: start getting reports. And in our kids' school reports were
Speaker 3: always interested in the effort and the comments more than
Speaker 3: the actual marks.
Speaker 1: I tell my kids, and I'm sure that having read
Speaker 1: this now I should not. I always say that's the
Speaker 1: mark I care about the most is the effort.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: The only trouble is in their final exams, there's no
Speaker 3: little brackets for how hard they try.
Speaker 2: If you ever, like me to see a cardiologist, you
Speaker 2: don't want the one who tried the hardest, do you, No,
Speaker 2: I just want the one who's good.
Speaker 3: And then when you get into the workforce, the person
Speaker 3: who prepared the hardest and for the job interview doesn't
Speaker 3: necessarily get the job. So I'm torn about this, but
Speaker 3: I find that I have it in everything that I
Speaker 3: do as a parent, because it's all about good trying,
Speaker 3: good waiting, good thinking, good sharing. So we're very focused
Speaker 3: on effort and intention. But I have noticed this at
Speaker 3: work as well. I've been a boss for a lot
Speaker 3: of years now, about thirty, and I've noticed over the
Speaker 3: last maybe ten years there's a lot of sometimes indignant
Speaker 3: insistence on output as the most important thing versus outcome.
Speaker 3: We talk about this in our business a lot, and
Speaker 3: so to many others, because people will often say I
Speaker 3: tried really hard, we worked really hard, we put a
Speaker 3: lot of time into this project, and it's like, well,
Speaker 3: that's great. However it didn't work. The output might have
Speaker 3: been huge, but as Jesse said, if the outcome is
Speaker 3: not good, the actual effort itself.
Speaker 1: Doesn't count for anything.
Speaker 3: So we're in an outcome based society, not output.
Speaker 1: But that's tricky, right, I very much recognize that to me,
Speaker 1: But the outcome isn't always in your control. How much
Speaker 1: effort can you put into something is in your control,
Speaker 1: but the outcome is not always because it's affected by
Speaker 1: lots of other factors, right, And it's interesting to me.
Speaker 1: You know, we as a society, although we do say
Speaker 1: that we really value hard work, We really worship natural talent.
Speaker 1: We really worship like high IQ, natural beauty, like speed,
Speaker 1: whatever it might be that people are and renately got
Speaker 1: it and things looking effortless. We really like that.
Speaker 3: Whereas if people when it comes to female appearance, certainly
Speaker 3: when it comes to women and an.
Speaker 1: Intelligence, we talk all the time about they're smart. They're smart,
Speaker 1: they're smart. We don't talk about whether or not they've
Speaker 1: worked really hard to do that. And I wonder if
Speaker 1: that's partly because of that You can work really, really
Speaker 1: hard and what actually comes from that might not be
Speaker 1: in your control. So then how do you measure success
Speaker 1: at all?
Speaker 2: Is the praising of effort really about arts? Attempting to
Speaker 2: teach kids and young people to love the process because
Speaker 2: the process is where you're going to spend ninety nine
Speaker 2: percent of your time and also character.
Speaker 1: I think it's about trying to teach character, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily guarantee success. But would I rather that my
Speaker 1: kids were pleasant and class, did their homework with polite
Speaker 1: to their teachers, or that yes, that's character right, rather
Speaker 1: than though I didn't try, I didn't do anything. I
Speaker 1: wasn't a productive person or a good team player or
Speaker 1: any but I got an A because I'm clever. Like,
Speaker 1: that's not my value system.
Speaker 3: In all situations are the same. So for example, trying
Speaker 3: in a relationship is worth a lot. Some things you
Speaker 3: can't control, but you can control how much you try,
Speaker 3: whereas at work there are no rewards for trying.
Speaker 1: I mean there can be. You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 3: We have a lot of shout outs and encouragement for
Speaker 3: people who try, because that is a character and a
Speaker 3: core value that you really want. But I think what
Speaker 3: Adam Grant says, which is the key to this is
Speaker 3: what you need to do is say I tried really hard,
Speaker 3: which does count for something, but the outcome was not
Speaker 3: what I wanted and not what I'd hoped for and
Speaker 3: feels not true to the amount of effort I put in. Therefore,
Speaker 3: what could I do differently. So I used to hear
Speaker 3: a lot a writer would say, I wrote this really
Speaker 3: great story. It was fantastic, it just didn't do well.
Speaker 3: No one read it, And I'm like, well, then it
Speaker 3: wasn't great. What are we missing? Was it the headline
Speaker 3: perhaps could have been different, was it the image we chose,
Speaker 3: was it the way we promoted it?
Speaker 1: A story, it's a.
Speaker 3: Bit like if a tree falls in a forest. You
Speaker 3: can try really hard, story can be really great, but
Speaker 3: what's the objective measure of that greatness? And in a
Speaker 3: workplace it is fairly objectives.
Speaker 2: A point of effort, though, is that it's meant to
Speaker 2: be internally validating. So what we're trying to teach kids
Speaker 2: is that you should be proud that you tried, and
Speaker 2: pride is meant to come from within. It's not meant
Speaker 2: to be something that your teacher gives you, or your
Speaker 2: boss gives you or whatever. It's something that you go
Speaker 2: to bed at night and your internal validation I know
Speaker 2: I tried my best is the internal validation. Because you
Speaker 2: can sit down and do your best and write a
Speaker 2: book that you believe is really good and put in
Speaker 2: three times as much effort as you ever have with
Speaker 2: anything you've ever done, and that book might absolutely flop.
Speaker 2: And that's because of luck, and it's because of timmunity
Speaker 2: and market and all of the things you can't control.
Speaker 2: But if you're doing everything for external validation, then it's
Speaker 2: never going to be that satisfying anyway. So really, I
Speaker 2: think effort is just something about like it does we
Speaker 2: should get our self esteem from how does that work.
Speaker 3: In the real world when it comes to trying to
Speaker 3: get a job, trying to retain that job, doing your exams.
Speaker 1: It doesn't actually matter how much effort you.
Speaker 2: Think it does, though, Like if I walk through my
Speaker 2: life and I go I didn't get that opportunity, but
Speaker 2: I know that I tried my absolute best. There's a
Speaker 2: real peace with that. There are people I see who
Speaker 2: don't want to try their best because that's a scary
Speaker 2: thing to do because rejection could be on the other side.
Speaker 1: I'm already to try. I see what you're saying.
Speaker 3: So you're saying that as parents, we're trying to help
Speaker 3: our children to get that internal validation so that they're
Speaker 3: not completely beholden to the validation external validation of the
Speaker 3: outside world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is like the weather. You can't control it.
Speaker 2: What you can control is what you But.
Speaker 1: How do you I have a very clear memory of
Speaker 1: being a like early high school kid. It will shock
Speaker 1: you both to learn that I was not sporty, like,
Speaker 1: not even a tiny bit, but I quite like running.
Speaker 1: And we've earned one hundred meters athletics and I remember going,
Speaker 1: I am going to run as fast as I can.
Speaker 1: We're going to run so hard, We're going to try
Speaker 1: so hard, and I was just shit at it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I went, well, clearly, I'm not a runner, and
Speaker 1: I just would go and smoke sickies behind the bike
Speaker 1: shed for the rest of the whole rest of my
Speaker 1: sports career. I see this in my kids where they
Speaker 1: put in a lot of effort on a particular essay
Speaker 1: or whatever and they don't get a good mark and
Speaker 1: they just kind of go, yeah, well, what's clearly I'm
Speaker 1: not good at that, so I'm just not going to
Speaker 1: do that. Or I tried really hard to understand that massing,
Speaker 1: but I'm not good at it. So mathstead to me,
Speaker 1: like it's really hard to there's still a lesson in
Speaker 1: there have any motivation for things that they don't succeed
Speaker 1: that because most of us are average at most things. Right,
Speaker 1: most of us are like a few people are really
Speaker 1: good at a handful of things, but most of us
Speaker 1: are pretty average at most things. So if we're only
Speaker 1: interested in outcome, then you wouldn't do ninety percent of
Speaker 1: the things you've got to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess that's resilience. But it's like maybe,
Speaker 2: then you go, it's about changing your goals, right, and
Speaker 2: you go, well, next time, I want to come second, last, last.
Speaker 3: That is, after the break, We've got you sorted with
Speaker 3: some recos, including something to cook, a movie to make
Speaker 3: you cry, and a TV show about bitches.
Speaker 1: Vibes, ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 2: This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 3: It's Friday, so we want to help you set up
Speaker 3: the weekend with our best recommendations.
Speaker 1: Holly, please go first, something to eat while wearing fast.
Speaker 1: We've been talking about protein around here, Haley. I am
Speaker 1: in my big chicken salad era because I love chicken. Chicken, chicken.
Speaker 1: We talked about it the other week. Maybe chicken with
Speaker 1: egg maybe chicken with legoons.
Speaker 2: What anyways does this chicken?
Speaker 3: Have you noticed that eggs there's a shortage because of
Speaker 3: bird flu, so anyone else.
Speaker 1: It's very disheartening. It's tricky froust vegetarians. I am recommending
Speaker 1: a chicken salad from the one and I only wonderful
Speaker 1: Nagi of recipe in Eats fame now if you don't
Speaker 1: know about Recipe to Eats, and of course you do,
Speaker 1: because everybody does. She is the most unbelievable cook and
Speaker 1: her two most recent cookbooks she became really famous for
Speaker 1: having recip eats online. It's what we might have once
Speaker 1: called a blog became a cult hit. Her last two
Speaker 1: cookbooks have been like they outsell everything in the universe.
Speaker 1: Is it just about things in a tin? No, not
Speaker 1: at all, Not at all. I thought it was all
Speaker 1: things that you could make with tin.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 1: No, Recipe in Eats just comes from the original name
Speaker 1: of it, which is like a tin that you keep
Speaker 1: your recipes in. Oh you see, not really, but any
Speaker 1: always stand the reason everyone loves there as the food
Speaker 1: is really tasty. It's relatively simple and basic and it
Speaker 1: always works. And her most recent book is called Tonight,
Speaker 1: and I have been making from it this it's called
Speaker 1: Cowboy Chicken Salad, and it's like a Mexican chicken salad.
Speaker 1: Chicken so you get chicken breast, and obviously you're going
Speaker 1: to need the proper recipe because I'm not.
Speaker 2: But like, do you grill it?
Speaker 1: Do you whack itack whack, which is very satisfying to
Speaker 1: get it nice and flat. Then you marinate rob it
Speaker 1: in some stuff which obviously argue you'll tell you what
Speaker 1: that is, but it's like you know, Mexican spices. You
Speaker 1: marinate it and then you grill it, and then you
Speaker 1: have it on this salad, which is like avocado, tomato, corn,
Speaker 1: black beans. But the thing that makes it amazing, as
Speaker 1: with any salad, is the dressing. And it's this Mexican
Speaker 1: dressing with like lime and cumine and whatever. But I
Speaker 1: make mine with yogurt because too much mayo makes me
Speaker 1: feel poorly. But you can use mayo if that's your vibe.
Speaker 1: I just can't tell you how good it is that
Speaker 1: I love it satisfying and how much it is a
Speaker 1: meal that just fills you up. And if you want
Speaker 1: less avocado because you're not doing that or whatever, of
Speaker 1: course you can do whatever you want.
Speaker 2: Eat it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Matilda loved it, Billy Woni. Then the thing that's
Speaker 1: vaguely looks like a vegetable, but he ate the chicken part.
Speaker 1: Could I do it with a barbecued chicken? Oh chicken? No,
Speaker 1: Well you could, but it wouldn't taste quite as good.
Speaker 1: But yeah, dressing would hide a million sins. I'm looking
Speaker 1: for a lower effort way. Yeah, it's not that hard
Speaker 1: to promise, but it's delicious. Of that cowboy chicken salad,
Speaker 1: it is my recommendation. It is all I'm eating this summer.
Speaker 3: I texted every mother I know about the movie Night Bitch,
Speaker 3: which I watched over the long weekend.
Speaker 1: Is super cute. Do you just love getting to be
Speaker 1: home with them all the time? Yeah? I do. I
Speaker 1: love it. You're an artist, right, well I used to
Speaker 1: feel wow, but that feels like a lifetime agirls. Yeah,
Speaker 1: totally definitely we get it. I used to be a stripper, Mamadie.
Speaker 1: I'm not buzzy. I just feel aw look at my
Speaker 1: teeth sharp.
Speaker 5: There's a little bit weird.
Speaker 1: Motherhood and changes you and connects you to some primal urges.
Speaker 3: Have you ever felt so exhausted as a that you
Speaker 3: worried you might actually be turning into a dog.
Speaker 2: Maybe not not exactly that dog, but a wild animal.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's the premise of Night Bitch. It stars Amy Adams.
Speaker 3: She was nominated for a Golden Globe for Best Actor
Speaker 3: in a Comedy or Musical. It's been categorized in that
Speaker 3: genre body horror, along with the substance. But it's not
Speaker 3: anything like the substance that was too gory for you.
Speaker 3: There's one tiny.
Speaker 1: Scene that's a little bit erh Is it funny? I
Speaker 1: think so much.
Speaker 2: It looked almost like a black comedy, like the concept
Speaker 2: is Finney.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. The concept is funny but also very powerful.
Speaker 3: It captures something really raw about motherhood that I've never
Speaker 3: seen on screen before, and the turning into a dog thing.
Speaker 3: There's no spoilers here, but it's actually just such an
Speaker 3: amazing metaphor for how primal and feral motherhood can feel.
Speaker 3: So Amy Adams is a woman who's got a toddler,
Speaker 3: her husband is away for work a lot, and it's
Speaker 3: just which is so good.
Speaker 1: It's on Disney.
Speaker 3: Plus, I'm just desperate for everyone to see it so
Speaker 3: that I can want to watch it.
Speaker 1: I will totally watch it.
Speaker 2: Jesse My recommendation is also a movie. I went to
Speaker 2: the movies over the weekend and saw We live in
Speaker 2: Time with Andrew Garfield and Florence Pew and it is
Speaker 2: exactly what I expected.
Speaker 4: What's happened to my own?
Speaker 1: Why it's an idea?
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry, But do we know each other yet?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: I run you over? Sorry, Sorry, I'm Alma by the way.
Speaker 1: Both we're going to make sure you have the time
Speaker 1: of your life. Okay, probably ought to get go, he says.
Speaker 1: Unless you have checked to do, then I have nothing.
Speaker 3: Whether we like it or not.
Speaker 1: Clock is ticking because I'm worried. There's a very distinct
Speaker 1: and real possibility that I am about to fall in
Speaker 1: love with you.
Speaker 2: It's brilliant, it's moving. How long did it take me
Speaker 2: to cry?
Speaker 1: I reckon.
Speaker 2: I cried in the first fifteen to twenty minutes, which
Speaker 2: a lot of people have said. And then you just
Speaker 2: you managed to cry the whole way along. But what's
Speaker 2: amazing about it is that at no point does it
Speaker 2: hit you over the head. There are points where I
Speaker 2: went you could have gone harder on that, but it's
Speaker 2: the subtlety of the pain. In a lot of the moments.
Speaker 2: When the lights came on at the end, I just
Speaker 2: was heaving crying like it. It is so so well done,
Speaker 2: and Florence Pugh steals it. In my opinion. The broad
Speaker 2: storyline is that there's Almut and Tobias. It's been called
Speaker 2: a sort of rom com vibe. It's them, and then
Speaker 2: she receives a diet. So yeah, I thought it was
Speaker 2: interesting to call it a rom com, but that's the genre.
Speaker 2: Apparently she receives a diagnosis. And what's new about this
Speaker 2: is that it explores ambition and motherhood and not wanting
Speaker 2: to just be remembered as someone's dying mother, Like what
Speaker 2: do you want out of that period of your life?
Speaker 2: And you know how it's the cliche or no one
Speaker 2: lays on the deathbed thinking they want to work more.
Speaker 2: This may be challenges that a bit and says what
Speaker 2: would you want to do? And what might it take
Speaker 2: from the people you love? So it's so really good?
Speaker 1: Is it very distressing? Well? What do you think? I
Speaker 1: didn't know.
Speaker 2: I knew that it was about illness, but what I
Speaker 2: didn't know was that they had a daughter, and that
Speaker 2: bit killed me, Like that bit there.
Speaker 1: Because I think we talked about this, but like I
Speaker 1: want to go somewhere and just cry. I will. I
Speaker 1: love movies that make me do that. And I love
Speaker 1: the idea because if there are so many movies from
Speaker 1: Turns of Indment to Sleep Sin Seattle that have dead moms, right,
Speaker 1: and it's true, but they are always absolutely selfless angels,
Speaker 1: like it's just the trope, right, So I'm really interested.
Speaker 2: In saying that played with the challenged.
Speaker 1: What was it like when the last came on? It
Speaker 1: was not good.
Speaker 2: I was there with two friends and they just couldn't
Speaker 2: stop laughing, And then they were like, and they kept
Speaker 2: saying one line from it that just got me. It wasn't.
Speaker 2: I cried all the way home, but it felt good.
Speaker 2: I'm not a crier, Like I can't remember the last
Speaker 2: time I cried, and it just felt very cathartic to
Speaker 2: get that out.
Speaker 3: I've got one more little throw in before we go,
Speaker 3: before I forget. I watched it over the holidays.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite TV shows of all time, The's Split.
Speaker 2: I've never watched remember.
Speaker 1: There were about four seasons.
Speaker 3: It was about a family of women who were all lawyers,
Speaker 3: a mother and her three daughters. Two of the three
Speaker 3: daughters were lawyers, and it was just a beautiful, interesting
Speaker 3: and they were family lawyers. So each week there was
Speaker 3: someone's divorce that they were working on, and it also
Speaker 3: followed their lives. Anyway, I loved it. It was written
Speaker 3: by Abby Morgan who is a phenomenal writer any way
Speaker 3: she has done. They did a bit of a Christmas
Speaker 3: special which was like a three episode arc where they
Speaker 3: got the cast back together and it was the split Barcelona.
Speaker 1: You look amazing. I love a good weather. Have you
Speaker 1: been dating a couple of dates a few months ago?
Speaker 1: Archie asterious lawyer, We may have a Seriously, Hannah, what's ho?
Speaker 1: Are you back? Scared of being alone? Scared of being
Speaker 1: with someone?
Speaker 4: But isn't anything worth doing? Terrifying?
Speaker 1: Another taste of that.
Speaker 3: It was, you know, a bit like four weddings and
Speaker 3: a funeral but in Spain. They all go to Spain
Speaker 3: for the main character, Hannah, her daughter's getting married and
Speaker 3: it's just where do you watch escape as viewing on
Speaker 3: ABC iView And it's worth it just for the Barcelona's scenery.
Speaker 1: It or make you want to go to.
Speaker 2: Spain after the break, an ambition, crisis, a big booboo.
Speaker 2: It is our best and worst of the week.
Speaker 3: Every Tuesday and Thursday we dropped new segments of Mama
Speaker 3: Mia Out Loud just for Muma MEA subscribers. Follow the
Speaker 3: link in the show notes to get your daily dose
Speaker 3: of out Loud and a big thank you to everyone
Speaker 3: who is already subscribed.
Speaker 2: It's time for Best and Worst of the week. This
Speaker 2: is a part of the show where we share a
Speaker 2: bit from our personal lives. What's been going on, Holly?
Speaker 2: Your worst? Please?
Speaker 1: Well you know what my worst is, Jesse, because you've
Speaker 1: got a panicked message from me in the middle of
Speaker 1: Thursday morning saying, do you know how to get something
Speaker 1: out of the trash on your computer when you have
Speaker 1: already emptied it.
Speaker 2: I had a bad feeling when I read that message,
Speaker 2: and I said to you, the good news is you
Speaker 2: have your.
Speaker 1: Worst, and you did. I was in my little office
Speaker 1: at home. We were going away for the long weekend,
Speaker 1: and so I was getting ready and you know, you're
Speaker 1: like prepping things. I was answering some emails, making sure
Speaker 1: I had everything in place, and in the most uncharacteristic
Speaker 1: move of my life, I went my desktop. It's a
Speaker 1: terrible mess.
Speaker 2: I've done this, Yeah, terrible mess.
Speaker 1: Just twenty million random screen shots, you know, all that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. You know what our desktops look like, so,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to get a little clean out, big
Speaker 1: clean out, just whack it all in the trash. And
Speaker 1: then in the second incredibly uncharacteristic move, I went and
Speaker 1: I'm going to empty the trash because I'm sure I'm
Speaker 1: taking up a lot of memory on my computer. So
Speaker 1: I hit empty trash and then I thought, I've got
Speaker 1: to just finish that very important proposition for the next
Speaker 1: book I'm writing that my publishers waiting on that I've
Speaker 1: been working on all summer. That's thousands of words. I
Speaker 1: better just finish that before we go away and send it.
Speaker 1: And then I realized that I had thrown that in
Speaker 1: the bin on my computer and pressed empty. And I
Speaker 1: cannot tell you how upset I was.
Speaker 2: Did you cry?
Speaker 1: You know? I didn't actually cry. I nearly cried. I
Speaker 1: got very mad. Brent heard me screaming, and so he
Speaker 1: came out and he was like, you know, when you're
Speaker 1: getting ready to go away and there's chaos and everything,
Speaker 1: you're packing and the kids, blah blah, and he was
Speaker 1: like what what? And I was like had He immediately
Speaker 1: went into don't panic, you're panicking. You're panicking, and I
Speaker 1: was like yeah, So that was so bad.
Speaker 2: Panic is the only appropriate was that I went to AI.
Speaker 1: I did it before everyone goes you can do time machine.
Speaker 1: I did all that. I went to all my clever
Speaker 1: AI assistants. I asked them, then they told me what
Speaker 1: to do. Then I tried. All those things didn't work,
Speaker 1: which is also my fault. Like my eyicloud, I hadn't
Speaker 1: saved it in the right folder to be on the cloud.
Speaker 1: I hadn't updated my this and my that and all
Speaker 1: that boring stuff, so I hadn't done any of that,
Speaker 1: so it had really really gone. We even went to
Speaker 1: an actual human who works in the computer shop with
Speaker 1: my laptop, like Curry Bradshaw in that scene, yes, saying
Speaker 1: can you help me, sir, please, kind sir, I'm desperate,
Speaker 1: and he said no. And the thing that was so
Speaker 1: weird about it, and I was so mad with myself,
Speaker 1: is that it was so uncharacteristic that I'd written this
Speaker 1: thing in the place that I had in a word
Speaker 1: doc that I kept on my desktop. Normally I do
Speaker 1: all that in a special program that's got saved somewhere,
Speaker 1: like it was just like a series of that was crazy.
Speaker 1: So then I tried to talk myself into well, clearly
Speaker 1: that was meant to happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to try it, you.
Speaker 1: Know what I mean say that, but I don't believe. Yeah.
Speaker 3: The worst thing about that is you want to be
Speaker 3: mad at someone like you want to be mad at
Speaker 3: the technology. You want to be mad, and then it's
Speaker 3: really upsetting when it just is you.
Speaker 1: It was just me, And then I had to obviously
Speaker 1: spend the rest of the weekend trying to recreate this
Speaker 1: thing that I'd been working on in parcels all summer long.
Speaker 1: It was very upsetting. I was very upset. We may recover,
Speaker 1: we may not. Who knows. Anyway, Maybe you won't recover
Speaker 1: the document you emotionally may emotionally.
Speaker 3: I love also that you saving to say to your publisher,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry I can't hand it.
Speaker 1: In because I deleted it. I mean, that's some fucking
Speaker 1: Freudian shit. Yeah, And you wouldn't believe it, would you
Speaker 1: just be like, she's been kicking back all summer long? Anyway,
Speaker 1: I haven't probably Anyway. My best is that then we
Speaker 1: did go away, and the thing that was lovely, but
Speaker 1: it must I can imagine. I was really really fun
Speaker 1: and relaxed, but while I was stressing and trying to
Speaker 1: remember all the great ideas I had. We made the
Speaker 1: children do real life things. So we angst all the
Speaker 1: time about how the kids don't live in the real
Speaker 1: world anymore. And I have this sort of policy that
Speaker 1: I think we've spoken about before where they have to
Speaker 1: do one, like at least one real life thing every day,
Speaker 1: like real life thing that's connected to the world. Anyway,
Speaker 1: where we went was a bit further down the coast
Speaker 1: and where we live, and there's this famous and possibly
Speaker 1: quite dangerous I apologize to anyone who's going to tell
Speaker 1: me I'm irresponsible, like jump there that kids jump off
Speaker 1: not a rock, like not that kind of thing, but
Speaker 1: like kind of like an old platform and you jump
Speaker 1: into the ocean and the ocean's crystal clear and it's gorgeous.
Speaker 1: And I was like, kids aren't going to do that.
Speaker 1: Kids these days don't take risks. My kids spent push them.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't have pushed anyone off anything at this point.
Speaker 4: I wasn't throw myself off there at first.
Speaker 1: I'm just like they spent all weekend of throw themself
Speaker 1: this having the best time ever.
Speaker 4: It was like this.
Speaker 1: Beautiful, wholesome childhood thing. It was great. Billy, who gets
Speaker 1: very obsessed about stuff, started counting how many times he'd
Speaker 1: jumped off this thing. By the end of the weekend,
Speaker 1: he'd jumped off at forty two times. I my wowness,
Speaker 1: it was so much fun. So my worst was my
Speaker 1: IDoc and my best was kids jumping off high stuff.
Speaker 1: Be careful, take precautions. Everybody on both of those topics
Speaker 1: maya what was your worst?
Speaker 3: My worst and my best were intertwined this week in
Speaker 3: the way that occasionally these things happen with bittersweet things.
Speaker 3: I made the announcement yesterday that I am stepping away
Speaker 3: from No Filter after ten years and I think six
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty something episodes.
Speaker 1: I've tried to do this.
Speaker 3: A couple of times before, as listeners to No Filter
Speaker 3: No and as you guys know, when I've needed a
Speaker 3: little bit of a breather, I've persuaded some people, including
Speaker 3: both of you, to step in for occasional episodes. Kate
Speaker 3: Langbrook hosted for me over summer last year, but I
Speaker 3: knew it was time. I've been wanting to do this
Speaker 3: for a couple of years. It hasn't been possible because
Speaker 3: there hasn't been anyone who has been able to take
Speaker 3: it over.
Speaker 1: It's a big job. You're annoying. It's a big show.
Speaker 1: Have jobs. It's a big show.
Speaker 3: And I explain in this announcement that I made in
Speaker 3: the No Filter feed why I decided to do it,
Speaker 3: and it basically comes down to I've been piling things
Speaker 3: on my plate for seventeen years since starting this company
Speaker 3: with my husband, and I've finally worked out that if
Speaker 3: I just keep adding more things, it's not possible. So
Speaker 3: I've finally understood how time works.
Speaker 1: That's part of it.
Speaker 3: So to be able to do more things and new things,
Speaker 3: I have to stop doing some of the things I've
Speaker 3: been doing for a long time, and also creatively. As
Speaker 3: much of an honor and a privilege as it is
Speaker 3: to sit in those rooms and have those intense conversations,
Speaker 3: they are intense, and I've done a lot. I've got
Speaker 3: much better at interviewing from when I started my God
Speaker 3: and I've learned so much. Yes, and I'm proud to
Speaker 3: say I'm a really good interviewer now. But I've done that,
Speaker 3: Like the challenge of it isn't there for me anymore,
Speaker 3: even though every interview is obviously different. I've kind of
Speaker 3: done it, so I was ready to hand it over.
Speaker 3: I have persuaded Kate lane Brook to take the mic
Speaker 3: from me on a permanent basis, and she's the new host.
Speaker 1: Her first episode is next week.
Speaker 3: I am the guest because I was easy to book,
Speaker 3: and we're going to go into a little bit more
Speaker 3: about why I decided to leave, and just also me
Speaker 3: interviewing her. It's more of an in conversation really, because
Speaker 3: she's got amazing for that. And funnily enough, we recorded
Speaker 3: this a year ago before it was going to be
Speaker 3: her first episode of her summer hosting thing. Part of
Speaker 3: the reason I've decided to move away from No Field.
Speaker 3: I was in a really bad state.
Speaker 1: Then we recorded the interview, and then when I heard it,
Speaker 1: I was like, I can't.
Speaker 2: You sent it to both few people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys.
Speaker 2: It was one of my favorite interviews. It was so honest,
Speaker 2: it was so insightful. I loved it, and I was
Speaker 2: so I think I even just a few months ago,
Speaker 2: I said, please release that.
Speaker 3: I really upset that we didn't release it anyway. This
Speaker 3: one's just it was a little bit more, you know,
Speaker 3: I was talking from a wound, and now I'm talking
Speaker 3: from a scar, and I hope you'll find this one
Speaker 3: better because I have more perspective and there's kind of
Speaker 3: more resolution, whereas I was really in it at the
Speaker 3: time and it was just a bit of a hot mess.
Speaker 1: So that's both my worst and my best.
Speaker 2: How do you feel right now having actually really this process?
Speaker 3: Now that I can people know about it and I
Speaker 3: can be public, and I've got some lovely messages, and
Speaker 3: it's been lovely looking back at some of the interviews.
Speaker 3: But I interviewed everybody that I wanted to interview. I
Speaker 3: ticked every box that I wanted to tick.
Speaker 1: Is it hard watching someone else hold your baby? It
Speaker 1: is glorious. It is so so glorious.
Speaker 3: There's a word that I learned from someone I interviewed
Speaker 3: on No Filter who was in a thruple Rowan Mangan
Speaker 3: who she's in a thrapple with two other women, and.
Speaker 1: She said, there's a word. It's the opposite of jealousy.
Speaker 3: It's called compersian, where you feel happier from watching someone
Speaker 3: that you love be loved by someone else. And I
Speaker 3: feel so happy watching Kate do such an incredible job.
Speaker 3: I mean, she just happened in those six episodes that
Speaker 3: she did last summer, did the most downloaded episode of
Speaker 3: the year for No Filter, when she interviewed Andy Lee,
Speaker 3: and not a single scaic of me.
Speaker 1: Was jealous or you know, disappointed that it wasn't me competitive.
Speaker 3: It's the opposite, because my biggest challenge in running this
Speaker 3: company is finding people who are better than me and
Speaker 3: smarter than me so I can do less. And you know,
Speaker 3: for me finding her with No Filter, I'm getting emotional.
Speaker 3: It was beautiful and I'm just so feelly happy.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to miss you on there, but if
Speaker 1: it's going to be anybody, Kate, thank you. I have
Speaker 1: learned a lot listening to that show. Jesse, what was
Speaker 1: your worst? My worst?
Speaker 2: It's a big one that I've sort of had over
Speaker 2: the summer, which is this crisis of ambition, is how
Speaker 2: I would put it. And at the beginning of the year,
Speaker 2: we've talked about this before I go full Oprah for
Speaker 2: a month and I usually I'm very goal oriented and
Speaker 2: I like knowing what I want and having clear goals
Speaker 2: and I don't have any. I don't have one, and
Speaker 2: I've been trying to find them, and I find it
Speaker 2: very discombobulating. And then my word of the year is creativity.
Speaker 2: And I've sat down and I've gone all right, well,
Speaker 2: come on, what are you going to do? And the
Speaker 2: sensation is like when you're trying to run in a
Speaker 2: dream and you can't run, Like I just feel really
Speaker 2: not like myself in that way, and I feel.
Speaker 3: Like there's an itch that you want to scratch, but
Speaker 3: you don't know what the itch is or could this
Speaker 3: just be for the first time in many years, pretty
Speaker 3: much since I've known you, you're not spread completely thin
Speaker 3: and overwhelmed.
Speaker 1: It's that.
Speaker 2: But to be completely on it, I am experiencing.
Speaker 1: Boredom like I'm unchallenged.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And I love going to work like I
Speaker 2: love my job more than I have ever loved my job.
Speaker 2: The problem with this job is that it actually does finish,
Speaker 2: so I found it. Even on the weekend, I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 2: well I want to do something. Luna's gone down for
Speaker 2: sleep and I've got a couple of hours I can't
Speaker 2: do out loud.
Speaker 1: Just spuck up the group chat.
Speaker 4: You can't.
Speaker 2: That's a thing about a book or an idea or
Speaker 2: you've always done.
Speaker 1: That's true.
Speaker 2: I've read this thing about how motherhood Like your hands
Speaker 2: are busy, but your mind can be idle. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of time to think, and I don't know what
Speaker 2: I meant to be thinking about. I would like to
Speaker 2: be marinating on something, but I don't have a thing
Speaker 2: to hold on to.
Speaker 1: Are you going to write another book?
Speaker 2: I want you, but I don't like. I kind of
Speaker 2: have an idea. This is a thing, right, is that
Speaker 2: when I go to work, I've designed my life around
Speaker 2: being incredibly efficient, and I have no guilt around working
Speaker 2: with a baby. I've no guilt, but I go I'm
Speaker 2: a efficient and then I go home to her. The
Speaker 2: problem with creativity and writing is that it's not very efficient.
Speaker 2: So the idea of sitting there and writing for two
Speaker 2: hours and taking that time away from lunar and coming
Speaker 2: up with nothing, I can't justify that. And I'm really
Speaker 2: struggling with how to explore creativity in a way that
Speaker 2: doesn't feel incredibly selfish. When it's like I sit down
Speaker 2: at the computer, I'm like, well, I'm going to write
Speaker 2: a book. But you know, if I'm going to spend
Speaker 2: two hundred hours writing a book, it better be an
Speaker 2: award winning masterpiece. Oh wow, and guess what not how.
Speaker 1: That Protestant work effort.
Speaker 2: It's a bad effort.
Speaker 1: That's interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so kind of in a weird place of that.
Speaker 2: But my best is I did an escape room this
Speaker 2: week with eight friends. We went and I had forgotten
Speaker 2: about escape rooms. I got really into them like maybe
Speaker 2: five or six years ago, and then a friend suggested
Speaker 2: it and it was so fun. And before you go,
Speaker 2: you're kind of like, oh, can I be bothered? And
Speaker 2: before we were all going, someone was dating someone new
Speaker 2: and you're kind of trying to talk, and then you
Speaker 2: go into the escape room and you're like, well, we
Speaker 2: can't gossip.
Speaker 1: I've never done. So they sound like my worst nightment.
Speaker 1: No no, no, no no.
Speaker 2: They're very mindful because it's like you don't think about
Speaker 2: anything else. They take your phone. It's a different part
Speaker 2: of your brain that you're operating. Everyone's brains work differently,
Speaker 2: Like it was so fun.
Speaker 1: Who's the Boss in an Escape Room? US escape leaderboard?
Speaker 2: We were thrown in and it was a senses It
Speaker 2: was about your senses, so you had to use all
Speaker 2: of your senses from smell to sight. There was one
Speaker 2: where it was completely dark. There was a braille like
Speaker 2: all of that. It was amazing.
Speaker 1: Who takes the lead? You are some people are better
Speaker 1: at those things than others, right, so it would be
Speaker 1: it must be competitive in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's like everyone's looking around at different things.
Speaker 1: So problems treasure hunt, I'm terrible of that kind of yeah, terrible.
Speaker 2: And there's lots of red herrings. So when we walked in,
Speaker 2: there was newspaper all over the walls and there were
Speaker 2: different random letters circled and you had to work out
Speaker 2: if it was spelling something or whatever. But an additional
Speaker 2: recommendation is that I was speaking to a friend who
Speaker 2: has just met someone on a dating app and it
Speaker 2: is an AI dating app, and I have become obsessed.
Speaker 2: It is called a Marta Amata and she's been on
Speaker 2: dating apps for years no luck. She finds this dating
Speaker 2: app and it's a chatbot and she goes, Hi, I'm
Speaker 2: looking for someone who blah blah blah, and just gave
Speaker 2: them all this information and they said you might like Jack,
Speaker 2: and they say here's Jack. Jack likes this and that
Speaker 2: and blah, and she goes, yeah, great, looks great. Went
Speaker 2: on a date with this person and it's just like
Speaker 2: the best relationship she's had in forever. But people are
Speaker 2: talking about this dating app because a chatbot takes in
Speaker 2: all the nuances of what you want, yeah and matches you, and.
Speaker 1: Like they should do that on maths. There should be
Speaker 1: the robot that matches the people up. Get Ai to
Speaker 1: do it.
Speaker 2: Because all my single friends are saying, hinge Tinder a
Speaker 2: lot of issues, right, is that it's just they're not
Speaker 2: succerethful at the moment. But this one, she was just saying,
Speaker 2: go and try it. So everyone who's single and looking
Speaker 2: for dating app, try this one.
Speaker 1: We need to do an episode. We get to respond
Speaker 1: to Jesse's Cristi of Ambition because I have twenty five
Speaker 1: pieces of useless advice for you. Oh I'm excited, but
Speaker 1: we need to do that. We need to do that
Speaker 1: because we have run out of time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right, exactly. I can update you all on
Speaker 2: my performance psychologist.
Speaker 1: Cand wait and share the tips so that we don't
Speaker 1: have to go see one. That is all we've got
Speaker 1: time for. Out louder Is on our Friday show, Thank
Speaker 1: you for being with us all week. We will be
Speaker 1: back in your ears next week. Of course, Jesse and
Speaker 1: Mia read us out today.
Speaker 2: A big thank you to our team group executive producer
Speaker 2: Ruth Devine, executive producer Emiline Gazillis, our audio producer is
Speaker 2: Leah Porgis, and video producer is Josh Green, and.
Speaker 3: A bonus record from our group EP Ruth. She's desperate
Speaker 3: to tell you about a product she believes makes her
Speaker 3: look less dead in the morning. Out louder, she says,
Speaker 3: home home, h O home, I know this brain is
Speaker 3: home like Katie Holmes, Yeah, Holme beauty. It's a setting spray,
Speaker 3: and she says it has glow for days.
Speaker 1: I heard.
Speaker 2: I was just googling yesterday about wearing white with makeup,
Speaker 2: and it was saying that you've got to put a
Speaker 2: setting spray on because you've told me this, You've got
Speaker 2: to put hairspray on your color.
Speaker 3: So if you're ever wearing white or something light, use
Speaker 3: hairspray before you put it on. You don't do it
Speaker 3: when it's on you and leave it for like five
Speaker 3: seconds or ten seconds to set and then put it
Speaker 3: on and then your makeup went smudge onto it.
Speaker 2: But setting spray is the other top tip. You put
Speaker 2: it on, it's not going to transfer out louders. If
Speaker 2: you're not ready to say goodbye. We thought we'd leave
Speaker 2: you with a little bit of a conversation we had
Speaker 2: on a subscriber episode with one of your favorites, Amelia Lester.
Speaker 2: We were talking about fashion and the tyranny of looking
Speaker 2: like you haven't tried. I want to start today by
Speaker 2: asking you both. I should probably say as well. We
Speaker 2: have a very special guest on this subscriber episode, Amelia.
Speaker 2: Lest you are sitting in hollywain Wright seat.
Speaker 1: I am. Should I push on a different accent? Don't try?
Speaker 1: I try for me cringe.
Speaker 2: Apparently we try often. Hello, Nor, I want to know
Speaker 2: how do you want to look when you leave the house?
Speaker 3: Maya?
Speaker 2: You first? What are you aiming for when you walk
Speaker 2: out of the house in the morning.
Speaker 1: How I want to look to the others or how
Speaker 1: I want to feel in myself?
Speaker 2: How you want to look to others? What do you
Speaker 2: want people to think of what you're wearing?
Speaker 1: Is Copenhagen? Oh my god? Can I say Copenhagen? I
Speaker 1: want people to think She's A.
Speaker 2: Link to that episode will be in the show notes.
Speaker 1: Bye bye.
Speaker 2: Shout out to any mum and mea subscribers listening. If
Speaker 2: you love the show, and you want to support us,
Speaker 2: Subscribing to Mom and Maya is the very best way
Speaker 2: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.
Speaker 1: Therein s