WEBVTT - A Generation Of Try-Hards 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:15.022 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges 0:00:15.062 --> 0:00:18.062 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:18.102 --> 0:00:18.822 is recorded on. 0:00:19.142 --> 0:00:21.342 You know how we are preparing for our live show 0:00:21.542 --> 0:00:23.822 in May. Yes, we are, okay, And I try and 0:00:23.982 --> 0:00:26.102 get out of certain parts of it that I don't enjoy, 0:00:26.222 --> 0:00:28.302 which has for some reason gone from zero to one 0:00:28.342 --> 0:00:29.982 hundred very very fast. 0:00:30.622 --> 0:00:34.781 The rehearsals and the lyrics and the measurement. 0:00:34.982 --> 0:00:35.141 Yeah. 0:00:35.222 --> 0:00:38.302 Yeah, And I've been trying to tell you that I 0:00:38.342 --> 0:00:41.942 don't like to dance. Wasn't on my job application when 0:00:41.982 --> 0:00:45.222 I came here. I shouldn't have to. Anyway, They've got 0:00:45.222 --> 0:00:47.622 this new thing on Ancestry DNA where they have your traits. 0:00:47.782 --> 0:00:51.062 They have like forty traits, right, so think like morning 0:00:51.102 --> 0:00:53.942 on night person, do you require a lot of caffeine? 0:00:53.982 --> 0:00:56.462 Do mosquito mosquitos buy you all that stuff because. 0:00:56.262 --> 0:00:59.222 Mosquitoes don't bite her bite out of me? 0:00:59.622 --> 0:01:01.782 Yeah. Not only does it tell you what your traits are, 0:01:01.982 --> 0:01:03.502 but what parent you got them from? 0:01:03.662 --> 0:01:03.862 Right? 0:01:03.902 --> 0:01:06.941 This is how amazing it is. Anyway, I was going 0:01:06.941 --> 0:01:11.062 through and apparently I do not possis s the DNA 0:01:11.222 --> 0:01:14.662 to learn choreography. It said there's a there's. 0:01:14.502 --> 0:01:17.662 Actually a spit in a stick to find that out. 0:01:17.182 --> 0:01:19.142 I feel like this is mine. You know how you 0:01:19.262 --> 0:01:22.942 use your adhd as a get our jail? This is mine, Mia. 0:01:23.022 --> 0:01:25.142 I feel a sick note coming on from Jesse Stephens. 0:01:25.222 --> 0:01:28.622 My doctor precludes me from having anticipates it. 0:01:28.622 --> 0:01:31.581 Said, I can't learn choreography. Totally different, DNA marker. I 0:01:31.622 --> 0:01:34.542 don't like dancing, yeah, said it said, you don't like dancing? 0:01:35.382 --> 0:01:36.862 Dancing? What about when you're drunk? 0:01:36.942 --> 0:01:39.262 Yeh, when I've had a few drinks actually dancing. But 0:01:40.262 --> 0:01:41.502 I don't want to dance right now? 0:01:42.542 --> 0:01:42.822 Did you? 0:01:42.942 --> 0:01:48.902 She did? I saw her doing that. Hello and welcome 0:01:48.942 --> 0:01:51.702 to Mama Mia out loud and to our Friday show 0:01:51.862 --> 0:01:54.222 where we take a break from the news cycle because 0:01:54.342 --> 0:01:58.302 holy hell is scary out there. Deep breaths, because today 0:01:58.382 --> 0:02:01.102 it's Friday, it's the thirty first of January, and we 0:02:01.182 --> 0:02:04.102 are talking about other stuff. I am Holly wayIn right, 0:02:04.222 --> 0:02:04.742 I'm mea. 0:02:04.662 --> 0:02:06.342 Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 0:02:06.382 --> 0:02:09.342 And on today's show, there's a new item of clothing 0:02:09.621 --> 0:02:12.942 that the finger wagging trendsetters of gen Z have assigned 0:02:13.022 --> 0:02:18.181 just TikTok's sartorial binfire and we think we know why. Also, 0:02:18.302 --> 0:02:21.022 a viral essay has reignited a debate about whether there's 0:02:21.102 --> 0:02:24.462 any such thing as an a for effort recommendations which 0:02:24.462 --> 0:02:26.862 include a meal to eat while you're wearing your weighted vest, 0:02:27.102 --> 0:02:29.302 a movie that you'll sop through on a TV show 0:02:29.342 --> 0:02:33.302 about bitches, and our very best and worst of the week. 0:02:33.542 --> 0:02:35.662 But first, Mia Friedman, we're. 0:02:35.462 --> 0:02:38.142 Big fans of pettiness here on Mama Mer out loud 0:02:38.262 --> 0:02:40.062 or maybe that's just me, but no, I think Jesse, 0:02:40.622 --> 0:02:41.782 you're very petty. 0:02:41.862 --> 0:02:43.022 You like some pettiness? 0:02:43.102 --> 0:02:44.901 Yeah, I do like a little bit of pettiness. 0:02:45.181 --> 0:02:48.542 I think it's an underrated personality trait. Personally, does being 0:02:48.582 --> 0:02:50.862 petty make you the bigger person? No, it makes you 0:02:50.902 --> 0:02:54.862 the smaller one, and sometimes that's okay. I'm excited to 0:02:54.902 --> 0:02:58.302 report that we've discovered a new form of petty behavior 0:02:58.542 --> 0:03:02.462 that's even more petty than the regular kind. It's more subtle, 0:03:02.542 --> 0:03:04.782 it's smaller, and it's easy to miss, but it can 0:03:04.822 --> 0:03:06.381 still be deeply satisfying. 0:03:06.462 --> 0:03:07.502 In case you missed. 0:03:07.222 --> 0:03:09.782 It, we learned about it via a viral tweet this 0:03:09.822 --> 0:03:13.622 week from a woman called bex Luthor, who wrote, there's 0:03:13.622 --> 0:03:16.622 someone in our team who behaves horribly to me, and 0:03:16.662 --> 0:03:18.782 whenever I have to type his name, I've taken to 0:03:18.902 --> 0:03:20.702 using a slightly smaller font. 0:03:20.542 --> 0:03:23.622 Size than for everyone else's. I love that. I love it. 0:03:24.062 --> 0:03:28.022 Micro pettiness is pettiness via. 0:03:27.902 --> 0:03:30.342 Stealth, Yes, And what I love about it is that 0:03:30.382 --> 0:03:31.982 it is a level of petty that makes the other 0:03:32.022 --> 0:03:35.142 person feel crazy. Because if I said to you, guys 0:03:35.342 --> 0:03:37.742 really weird. But every time Mia sends me an email, 0:03:37.782 --> 0:03:40.062 I swear she puts my name a little bit smaller, 0:03:40.422 --> 0:03:45.662 people would ye paranoid. Yeah, it would make you question 0:03:45.742 --> 0:03:48.662 your grasp on reality. But that means the person's really 0:03:48.702 --> 0:03:50.022 getting to you. And I love that. 0:03:50.342 --> 0:03:53.422 We have asked out loud as if they do any 0:03:53.662 --> 0:03:56.662 acts of micro pettiness, maybe in the workplace or in 0:03:56.702 --> 0:03:59.782 their life generally, Jesse, you've got one. 0:03:59.902 --> 0:04:03.022 One out Louder said that when someone in her family 0:04:03.102 --> 0:04:05.342 is really pissing her off, she'll go and sit in 0:04:05.382 --> 0:04:07.822 their usual seat, Like, say, there's a head of the 0:04:07.862 --> 0:04:10.822 table that someone normally sits in, so it puts everyone 0:04:10.862 --> 0:04:12.142 a little off. Kiltop sag. 0:04:12.262 --> 0:04:14.462 Yeah. One of the outlauders said, I tell my best 0:04:14.502 --> 0:04:16.462 friend if her boyfriend is being mean to her she 0:04:16.502 --> 0:04:19.862 should just take small things from his house, nothing important, 0:04:20.262 --> 0:04:23.222 just inconvenient, like the base of his phone charge and 0:04:23.301 --> 0:04:26.101 leave the cord. Just take the plug, one of the 0:04:26.222 --> 0:04:29.821 stove dials, only one, the little spitty thing under the 0:04:29.821 --> 0:04:33.101 plate in the microwave, so it won't yes one shoe, 0:04:33.142 --> 0:04:36.381 but leave the other. That's great, that falls into the hole. Like, 0:04:36.541 --> 0:04:39.342 am I going crazy? Yeah? I love that. 0:04:39.662 --> 0:04:43.541 I've got some examples from out louders of admin pettiness. 0:04:44.142 --> 0:04:47.621 One person says, I'll stop using exclamation marks when I 0:04:47.662 --> 0:04:49.901 talk to this person over email or slack. 0:04:50.262 --> 0:04:52.181 It makes me feel like I'm being Yeah, that is 0:04:52.421 --> 0:04:55.541 my peak. Rude is when you get proper punctuality. 0:04:55.702 --> 0:04:58.222 Yeah. Someone else said that people often get her name 0:04:58.222 --> 0:05:00.341 wrong in emails, so she does the same back, calling 0:05:00.381 --> 0:05:03.301 them by their last name or spell their name wrong. 0:05:04.101 --> 0:05:07.141 Instead of signing off every email with many thanks, they 0:05:07.181 --> 0:05:09.261 just sign off their email with thanks. 0:05:09.702 --> 0:05:12.861 I realize that I have been guilty of micro pettiness 0:05:12.861 --> 0:05:15.301 in the last twenty four hours. I do this often, 0:05:15.421 --> 0:05:17.461 which is when I get up in the middle of 0:05:17.462 --> 0:05:20.222 the night with our baby, which has been happening a 0:05:20.222 --> 0:05:23.741 bit lately. I will send my husband a text message 0:05:23.861 --> 0:05:27.942 about something that's not very ard. But yesterday I did 0:05:27.941 --> 0:05:31.902 it at four fifteen. I went, we need milk, and 0:05:31.941 --> 0:05:35.222 I just it's like a marker of just going I'm awake. 0:05:35.061 --> 0:05:36.502 Just so you know, just so you know. Do you 0:05:36.582 --> 0:05:37.301 know what I used to do? 0:05:37.421 --> 0:05:40.101 Every time I was annoyed with my husband, I'd take 0:05:40.142 --> 0:05:40.861 off my wedding ring. 0:05:41.142 --> 0:05:43.942 That's not my friend, just petty. 0:05:44.821 --> 0:05:48.421 He never noticed. I wish I was more of an 0:05:48.421 --> 0:05:51.981 evil genius. Maybe I'm going to try and develop that. Yeah, 0:05:52.061 --> 0:05:53.342 I'm not genius enough. 0:05:53.782 --> 0:05:55.662 Hi, I'm married, David. I want to tell you about 0:05:55.662 --> 0:05:59.182 a new store I'm opening called lat Larry. Why am 0:05:59.181 --> 0:06:02.261 I getting into the coffee game? Because I went to 0:06:02.301 --> 0:06:05.782 this coffee shop next door and the guy was such 0:06:05.821 --> 0:06:08.621 a jerk that I felt like I had to do something. 0:06:09.741 --> 0:06:10.142 You know what. 0:06:10.941 --> 0:06:12.221 I got me a little Spots store. 0:06:13.181 --> 0:06:16.582 As the fashion correspondent on this show, I've come across 0:06:16.621 --> 0:06:19.022 some urgent news. I read an article this week on 0:06:19.101 --> 0:06:22.342 Muma Maya that told me, in no uncertain terms, that 0:06:22.501 --> 0:06:28.262 I a millennial. Must bury yet another of my beloved staples. 0:06:29.181 --> 0:06:31.222 There was the eyeliner. I remember they came from my eyeliner. 0:06:31.301 --> 0:06:32.301 Oh your winged eyeliner. 0:06:32.462 --> 0:06:34.821 Yep. Then they came from my skinny jeans. They came 0:06:34.861 --> 0:06:37.301 for my socks. Now I've got a bide part yep, 0:06:37.902 --> 0:06:40.061 visible socks, yeah, yep, yep, yep. And now I've got 0:06:40.101 --> 0:06:43.221 to wear the long ones. Now apparently we are doing 0:06:43.342 --> 0:06:47.821 bags wrong. So Nicola Dolf, who's the head of style 0:06:47.861 --> 0:06:53.421 at the Iconic, has declared the cross body bag done. Interestingly, 0:06:53.462 --> 0:06:55.261 you know who I see wear a cross body bag 0:06:55.262 --> 0:06:57.702 more than anyone else is this lady who thinks she's 0:06:57.741 --> 0:06:59.702 a fashion icon over. 0:06:59.501 --> 0:07:02.902 Here, although she wears like a cross phone strap thing 0:07:02.941 --> 0:07:03.222 a lot. 0:07:03.421 --> 0:07:06.461 I wear everything cross and it's for reasons of feminism 0:07:07.022 --> 0:07:10.862 and also disorganization, because I tend to lose things. 0:07:11.142 --> 0:07:12.742 Yes, right, keeps your hands free. 0:07:12.982 --> 0:07:15.582 Gen Z's in the office were asked how they felt 0:07:15.622 --> 0:07:17.702 about the cross body bag and if they were surprised 0:07:17.742 --> 0:07:20.982 by this news item, and here's what they said. Cross 0:07:21.022 --> 0:07:24.902 body bags are very millennial coded. Gen Z's are all 0:07:24.941 --> 0:07:28.941 about under the shoulder bag, big or small. Another said, 0:07:29.182 --> 0:07:31.622 it's not so much that the cross body bag is bad, 0:07:31.982 --> 0:07:34.702 it's more so you can spot a millennial out in 0:07:34.742 --> 0:07:37.422 the crowd with it. It's a millennial identifier. 0:07:37.702 --> 0:07:40.261 See gen x is are stoked because if someone thinks 0:07:40.302 --> 0:07:44.622 we're a millennial, that's a compliment. Thrilled. People who get 0:07:44.702 --> 0:07:49.822 really upset about these pronouncements from Gen Zed are millennials. Yes, 0:07:49.862 --> 0:07:51.702 how are you feeling? You don't wear a lot of 0:07:51.702 --> 0:07:53.782 cross body bags. You still wear like a backpack like 0:07:53.821 --> 0:07:54.662 Dora the Explorer. 0:07:54.742 --> 0:07:57.261 I was going to ask, how are we feeling about backpacks? 0:07:57.502 --> 0:08:01.702 They're in, They're still in, right, justipractice videos love a backpack. 0:08:01.782 --> 0:08:06.582 Yeah, when you need to grab something, No, I do 0:08:06.622 --> 0:08:08.782 struggle with that because you have to take it off, 0:08:08.821 --> 0:08:10.941 put it down, pick it up, put it back on again. 0:08:11.381 --> 0:08:13.462 The reason I also like cross body bags, apart from 0:08:13.502 --> 0:08:17.101 having your hands free, is that it also can give 0:08:17.381 --> 0:08:20.622 a bit of color. It's like something going across your body. 0:08:20.862 --> 0:08:21.782 I thought, if you. 0:08:21.782 --> 0:08:25.141 Are a big busted woman, then the cross body bag 0:08:25.182 --> 0:08:25.742 has never worked. 0:08:25.821 --> 0:08:26.542 Yeah, that's true. 0:08:26.662 --> 0:08:30.382 It's like a seat belt. It's just it doesn't It 0:08:30.502 --> 0:08:33.262 just sits between, it kind of emphasizes. 0:08:33.742 --> 0:08:34.222 Sometimes. 0:08:34.862 --> 0:08:37.102 See, sometimes I find that it cuts because I am 0:08:37.102 --> 0:08:39.582 now a big bustard woman. Sometimes I find that it cuts. 0:08:40.262 --> 0:08:42.662 If I feel like I've got pillow bust, it cuts 0:08:42.662 --> 0:08:44.462 it in half. Dagally, I actually think it can be 0:08:44.542 --> 0:08:48.102 quite complimentary. I have a theory about why jen z 0:08:48.542 --> 0:08:52.902 are so obsessed with telling you millennials, millennials that you're old. 0:08:52.942 --> 0:08:57.382 And the difference between now and say, when we were 0:08:57.622 --> 0:09:00.582 in our teens or twenties, is that now pretty much 0:09:00.582 --> 0:09:04.182 everybody dresses the same. Like there are three generations of 0:09:04.222 --> 0:09:08.862 my family women who shop at Uniclo, my mother, me, 0:09:09.022 --> 0:09:12.302 my daughter. We're all buy the same kinds of items. 0:09:12.662 --> 0:09:15.982 Your mother and I wear the same shoes, tevas, Yes, 0:09:16.222 --> 0:09:18.302 we love a Tevah do love a teva? 0:09:18.382 --> 0:09:18.902 Exactly. 0:09:19.582 --> 0:09:22.302 My father and my son were the same kind of runners, 0:09:22.622 --> 0:09:24.702 so that was very different. Like if I think about 0:09:24.742 --> 0:09:27.902 my grandmother growing up and my grandfather, they didn't even 0:09:27.902 --> 0:09:28.542 wear jeans. 0:09:29.222 --> 0:09:30.542 So over the last couple of. 0:09:30.542 --> 0:09:34.902 Generations, there's been this blurring of you know, everyone chops 0:09:34.942 --> 0:09:38.222 at cotton On, everybody shops at Zara, whether it's a 0:09:38.262 --> 0:09:40.462 small label, I'm using those because there are labels that 0:09:40.502 --> 0:09:44.102 everybody's heard of. It's become very democratized. Why do you 0:09:44.142 --> 0:09:46.462 think that is because we don't want to look old. 0:09:46.582 --> 0:09:47.062 Yeah. 0:09:47.142 --> 0:09:49.942 I think there's greater existential angst about getting old than 0:09:49.982 --> 0:09:50.502 ever before. 0:09:50.742 --> 0:09:52.622 Yeah, And I think you've got four generations who are 0:09:52.702 --> 0:09:56.422 essentially the broad constructs of it addressing the same. Like 0:09:56.422 --> 0:09:58.582 they could be wearing sambas, they could be wearing jeans, 0:09:58.582 --> 0:10:00.582 and they could be wearing a graphic T shirt right, 0:10:00.902 --> 0:10:02.422 and they might wear it all in their own way, 0:10:02.422 --> 0:10:04.542 but they could all be wearing essentially the same. So 0:10:04.622 --> 0:10:06.782 what gen z's have to do because they don't want 0:10:06.782 --> 0:10:08.902 to look like their parents or their grandparents or their 0:10:08.942 --> 0:10:13.782 older millennial siblings, they have to pick on very small 0:10:14.662 --> 0:10:19.622 subtle aspects of it, specific aspects, and you know, demonize 0:10:19.622 --> 0:10:20.742 those and. 0:10:20.662 --> 0:10:22.262 Say they're the coders. 0:10:22.302 --> 0:10:25.982 So it's the socks, it's the bags. It's not like genes, 0:10:26.342 --> 0:10:28.062 it's the type of gen do. 0:10:28.022 --> 0:10:31.022 You think, Because I'm not convinced when I think about 0:10:31.062 --> 0:10:34.462 growing up or whatever, we've always laid shit on people 0:10:34.502 --> 0:10:37.382 older than us. That's not entirely new. Like I have 0:10:37.542 --> 0:10:41.342 been giving my mum shit about what she wears since 0:10:41.382 --> 0:10:45.062 I could speak. I wonder if the difference is that 0:10:45.142 --> 0:10:48.142 we used to bitch in private and now we bitch 0:10:48.182 --> 0:10:51.222 on TikTok, Like is it that now we're just so 0:10:51.462 --> 0:10:54.422 open about Oh this makes you look cold, this makes 0:10:54.462 --> 0:10:55.022 you look cold? 0:10:55.222 --> 0:10:58.302 Well? You also now you get to watch the reaction. See, 0:10:58.342 --> 0:11:01.462 millennials are in this very particular moment of realizing they're 0:11:01.462 --> 0:11:03.822 not the young ones anymore, and that's a very painful 0:11:04.222 --> 0:11:06.822 space to be because you go through in this relatively 0:11:06.862 --> 0:11:08.862 short time, oh I'm the young one at work to like, 0:11:08.942 --> 0:11:11.542 oh I'm not more, and it's jarring and you're trying 0:11:11.542 --> 0:11:15.422 to figure it out. And now when people mock your 0:11:15.462 --> 0:11:17.622 side part or your skinny jeans, because I think me 0:11:17.702 --> 0:11:19.622 is right, it's all about the micro although let me 0:11:19.662 --> 0:11:21.502 tell you me. If I walked in here dressed in 0:11:21.542 --> 0:11:25.462 the clothes that my fifteen year old daughter was, oh. 0:11:25.262 --> 0:11:28.262 My god, you people would throw me out onto the street, 0:11:28.822 --> 0:11:30.582 like giant white leg jeans. 0:11:30.382 --> 0:11:34.382 And teeny tiny crop tops. My god, can you imagine. 0:11:34.622 --> 0:11:37.582 But anyway, that aside the little markers of it, they 0:11:37.622 --> 0:11:41.022 see how upset you get. People get furious about this. 0:11:41.182 --> 0:11:43.222 What do you mean I can't wear my skinny jeans? 0:11:43.222 --> 0:11:45.422 What do you mean my socks aren't cool? And they 0:11:45.462 --> 0:11:47.982 get so upset. And that's fun for the young people 0:11:48.262 --> 0:11:50.902 to see the old people getting upset about stuff, Whereas 0:11:50.942 --> 0:11:53.502 you used to not see it so much, but now 0:11:53.942 --> 0:11:56.261 it's like hilarious watching us get upset about sock. 0:11:56.342 --> 0:11:58.702 I think the problem is we're just too cool. Like 0:11:59.102 --> 0:12:01.262 mothers and daughters go and get tattoos together. 0:12:01.422 --> 0:12:06.982 That's what I did. It's this is what everyone's doing. 0:12:07.022 --> 0:12:07.782 It's not darling. 0:12:09.542 --> 0:12:12.182 There's a lot of people, like young people have always 0:12:12.222 --> 0:12:15.262 wanted to separate themselves from older people. 0:12:15.782 --> 0:12:19.022 We've never resisted aging more. 0:12:19.182 --> 0:12:22.302 And also old things have become cool, like you know, 0:12:22.422 --> 0:12:25.582 older people can wear sexy things and wear crop tops 0:12:25.582 --> 0:12:28.142 if they want to, although I will judge them for it. 0:12:29.062 --> 0:12:30.942 And younger people want. 0:12:30.742 --> 0:12:34.942 To wear daggy old man shoes or old woman shoes 0:12:34.982 --> 0:12:35.342 like you do. 0:12:35.902 --> 0:12:37.942 And so it's like norm core. It's all blurred. 0:12:38.182 --> 0:12:40.622 In the article on Mum and May, out Fran said, 0:12:40.902 --> 0:12:43.502 gen Z haven't lived through enough to understand all the 0:12:43.502 --> 0:12:45.902 benefits of a cross body bag. And I think that 0:12:45.902 --> 0:12:48.582 that's very true. It's like maybe we just have the wisdom. 0:12:48.822 --> 0:12:50.982 We have the wisdom of knowing that certain trends. 0:12:50.982 --> 0:12:54.102 Also, gen Z, you don't have any responsibility. 0:12:54.262 --> 0:12:56.822 No, you just can said I don't use a bag. 0:12:57.022 --> 0:12:57.582 You can just. 0:12:57.742 --> 0:13:00.782 Punching bag under your arm because you never have to 0:13:00.782 --> 0:13:02.302 lift your arm if you don't want to. 0:13:02.422 --> 0:13:04.062 Yes, And because they don't have to put their phone 0:13:04.062 --> 0:13:05.902 in their bag because they've never put their phone down. 0:13:05.942 --> 0:13:06.942 It's just attached to their point. 0:13:06.982 --> 0:13:09.502 We've got a funny ven diagram in our house because 0:13:09.782 --> 0:13:12.302 you know, my daughter, her girlfriend, my son, who's sixteen. 0:13:13.462 --> 0:13:16.702 My daughter's girlfriend has this ven diagreen where she's in 0:13:16.702 --> 0:13:19.342 the middle. She shares clothes with me, she shares clothes 0:13:19.382 --> 0:13:25.222 with Coco, she shares clothes with Remy, And even though Coco, 0:13:25.342 --> 0:13:28.142 Remy and I don't dress at all the same, we all. 0:13:28.022 --> 0:13:29.382 Share clothes with Jack. 0:13:29.422 --> 0:13:30.222 She's a hybrid. 0:13:30.342 --> 0:13:36.942 Yeah, you tried really really hard, you worked super duper hard. 0:13:37.382 --> 0:13:41.142 You didn't succeed, In fact, you failed. Should you be 0:13:41.182 --> 0:13:45.702 commended for effort over result? This is a familiar debate 0:13:45.822 --> 0:13:48.662 kicked off again by an essay by Adam Grant, who's 0:13:48.662 --> 0:13:52.182 one of the most prestigious and popular organizational psychologists of 0:13:52.182 --> 0:13:55.982 our time. We love organizational psychologists, don't we, because they 0:13:56.062 --> 0:13:58.862 know things, but they also make us more productive. He's 0:13:58.902 --> 0:14:01.822 the loveliest guy just to name dropped us quickly. Everyone 0:14:01.902 --> 0:14:02.261 loves that. 0:14:02.422 --> 0:14:05.342 I interviewed him for No Filter a few years ago, 0:14:05.422 --> 0:14:08.942 and he's amazing. He also co wrote Cheryl Sandberg's book 0:14:08.982 --> 0:14:13.062 that we love, Option B about dealing with grief. He's 0:14:13.182 --> 0:14:16.062 like the cool internet psychologist. 0:14:16.462 --> 0:14:20.182 And he also teaches university at the prestigious Warden School 0:14:20.222 --> 0:14:22.422 in the US, and he wrote an essay called No, 0:14:22.662 --> 0:14:24.862 you Don't get an A for effort at the end 0:14:24.902 --> 0:14:28.182 of last year about how he's noticed that his students 0:14:28.222 --> 0:14:31.862 are now frequently presenting him with their marks and complaining 0:14:31.862 --> 0:14:35.222 that they should have been higher because they tried really hard. 0:14:35.302 --> 0:14:37.542 He wrote, recently, at the end of a week long 0:14:37.582 --> 0:14:40.942 course with the light workload, multiple students had a new complaint. 0:14:41.342 --> 0:14:44.502 My grade doesn't reflect the effort I put into this course. 0:14:45.062 --> 0:14:48.942 High marks are for excellence, he writes, not grit. In 0:14:48.982 --> 0:14:52.302 the past, students understood that hard work was not sufficient 0:14:52.702 --> 0:14:56.502 and a required great work. And yet today many students 0:14:56.542 --> 0:14:59.182 expect to be rewarded for the quantity of their effort 0:14:59.382 --> 0:15:02.142 rather than the quality of their knowledge. Now, he goes 0:15:02.182 --> 0:15:04.342 on to explain that this isn't their fault. The young 0:15:04.382 --> 0:15:06.142 people I guess who are coming to him and talking 0:15:06.182 --> 0:15:08.542 about this. He says, we've had a shift that was 0:15:08.542 --> 0:15:11.542 made in educational work ago, which ended up entering the 0:15:11.542 --> 0:15:16.222 psyche of the mainstream that acknowledged that rewarding effort cultivates 0:15:16.262 --> 0:15:19.382 a strong work ethic in people and often reinforces learning. 0:15:19.422 --> 0:15:21.822 So it's a good thing to enforce that effort is 0:15:21.822 --> 0:15:23.982 a really good thing. It makes people want to work hard. 0:15:24.462 --> 0:15:27.262 But he argues that we might have taken it too far, 0:15:27.662 --> 0:15:29.782 not just at school or at UNI or on whatever 0:15:29.862 --> 0:15:32.182 course we might be taking, but in the workplace and 0:15:32.262 --> 0:15:36.502 even in relationships. Jesse, are you an a for effort person? 0:15:36.742 --> 0:15:42.022 This made me really think because the respect we have 0:15:42.142 --> 0:15:46.302 for effort I broadly agree with. I don't think this 0:15:46.422 --> 0:15:50.022 is the same as like a participation ribbon, giving everyone 0:15:50.022 --> 0:15:52.942 a participation ribbon. It's different because this is saying it's 0:15:52.982 --> 0:15:56.622 about growth, mindset and understanding that it's not fixed. It's 0:15:56.622 --> 0:15:59.302 not you're smart, you're not. You're good at netball, you're not. 0:15:59.462 --> 0:16:01.862 It's saying, if you try, it's something you'll get better, 0:16:01.982 --> 0:16:04.302 which is true. I love that, and I think that 0:16:04.382 --> 0:16:05.542 is how we should teach kids. 0:16:06.342 --> 0:16:09.742 Now. That's encouraging, Yeah, exactly, kind of demoralize. 0:16:09.982 --> 0:16:12.382 Yes, it's not rewarding you just for showing up. It's 0:16:12.422 --> 0:16:15.062 rewarding you for showing up and they're putting in. 0:16:15.742 --> 0:16:17.982 Yeah, and if you had to decide if you're hiring 0:16:18.022 --> 0:16:20.622 someone for a job, I reckon you would go the 0:16:20.662 --> 0:16:23.862 hard worker over the person with natural ability any day. 0:16:24.022 --> 0:16:27.622 So conscientiousness in terms of like the beat five, I 0:16:27.662 --> 0:16:31.102 think the big five personality traits that you look at 0:16:31.142 --> 0:16:34.622 like there's openness, as neuroticism or that conscientiousness, those people 0:16:34.622 --> 0:16:36.382 that work hard. And I remember this from school. There 0:16:36.382 --> 0:16:37.822 were people that worked hard, and then there were people 0:16:37.862 --> 0:16:40.222 that didn't even study and would get really really good marks. Right, 0:16:40.662 --> 0:16:42.622 I can look at it and see who's more successful, 0:16:42.902 --> 0:16:45.062 and it was the people who put their head down 0:16:45.582 --> 0:16:49.822 and developed that work ethic succeeded. And I think that 0:16:50.382 --> 0:16:54.702 grit and resilience are really important qualities, and you generally 0:16:54.782 --> 0:16:57.182 get better at things when you have a good work ethic. 0:16:57.942 --> 0:17:00.662 In saying that, what this made me think about was 0:17:00.942 --> 0:17:06.181 how you can work really hard ineffectively. So there have 0:17:06.262 --> 0:17:08.141 been periods of my life where I know I've done this. 0:17:08.222 --> 0:17:11.101 In fact, the university exam really resonated. I turned up 0:17:11.101 --> 0:17:13.782 to university, I worked harder than I've ever worked, and 0:17:13.821 --> 0:17:16.542 I got about sixty in my essays. I just wasn't 0:17:17.101 --> 0:17:21.661 doing the work effectively. I was applying this other strategy 0:17:21.661 --> 0:17:25.302 that I'd always used to this new thing and failing 0:17:25.341 --> 0:17:26.542 at it and. 0:17:27.182 --> 0:17:29.702 The day I hadn't been in meta yet. You couldn't cheat. 0:17:30.302 --> 0:17:32.341 Putting your hand up and going. But I tried really 0:17:32.341 --> 0:17:35.262 hard on that isn't the point, and that's it's. 0:17:35.141 --> 0:17:38.222 An honorable So are you saying it's an honorable character trait? 0:17:39.182 --> 0:17:42.662 But it doesn't necessarily assure you anything. 0:17:42.782 --> 0:17:45.662 Yeah, and more honorable, which is what Adam Grant says, 0:17:45.742 --> 0:17:47.221 is to put your hand up and go to your 0:17:47.302 --> 0:17:49.542 lecture or whatever. I tried really hard in this. What 0:17:49.621 --> 0:17:50.302 am I missing? 0:17:50.702 --> 0:17:50.821 Like? 0:17:50.861 --> 0:17:53.221 What can I do that's better? And it reminded me 0:17:53.302 --> 0:17:55.742 of do you remember this story? Blew my mind. At 0:17:55.742 --> 0:18:01.502 the Olympics, Cam McAvoy the fifty meter Australian gold medalist swimmer. Right, 0:18:01.702 --> 0:18:03.741 he was a first Australian man ever to win the 0:18:03.942 --> 0:18:07.382 fifty meter freestyle. I think it was his late thirties, right, 0:18:07.542 --> 0:18:09.101 like he was older than most. 0:18:09.661 --> 0:18:10.502 Happened at the last one. 0:18:10.621 --> 0:18:12.542 Yeah, this is the last Olympics and he had been 0:18:12.581 --> 0:18:15.341 training for years, couldn't win it. At the beginning of 0:18:15.341 --> 0:18:17.662 his career, he would do seventy kilometers a week swimming 0:18:17.901 --> 0:18:20.061 when he trained for this Olympics, he did three kilometers 0:18:20.101 --> 0:18:21.942 a week and he just went, I'm going to change 0:18:21.942 --> 0:18:23.141 how I do it, and I'm going to train in 0:18:23.182 --> 0:18:25.502 a twenty five meter pool. And he won the gold medal. 0:18:25.942 --> 0:18:28.542 And I think you know how they say insanity. The 0:18:28.542 --> 0:18:30.741 definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting 0:18:30.782 --> 0:18:33.621 different results. It's like sometimes sitting down and this is 0:18:33.621 --> 0:18:36.381 what Adam Grant's all about, and going and putting in 0:18:36.422 --> 0:18:39.581 all this effort. It's not paying off, then your effort 0:18:39.661 --> 0:18:42.622 is misguided. It's misdirected. There must be a better way 0:18:42.621 --> 0:18:43.341 to do it, right. 0:18:43.542 --> 0:18:46.902 Yeah, I think you can see how it's happened because 0:18:47.101 --> 0:18:49.462 it did start out in parenting. It's funny that when 0:18:49.462 --> 0:18:53.461 we were talking about this earlier today, Holly and I 0:18:53.502 --> 0:18:55.141 who when your kids get to a certain age, you 0:18:55.182 --> 0:18:58.462 start getting reports. And in our kids' school reports were 0:18:58.502 --> 0:19:01.861 always interested in the effort and the comments more than 0:19:01.901 --> 0:19:02.702 the actual marks. 0:19:02.821 --> 0:19:05.061 I tell my kids, and I'm sure that having read 0:19:05.101 --> 0:19:07.262 this now I should not. I always say that's the 0:19:07.302 --> 0:19:09.061