1 00:00:11,064 --> 00:00:14,104 Speaker 1: So much. You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,784 --> 00:00:18,104 Speaker 2: Mum and mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 3 00:00:18,224 --> 00:00:22,944 Speaker 2: borders that this podcast is recorded on. Hello Spillers today, 4 00:00:22,984 --> 00:00:25,304 Speaker 2: we have a treat for you because, as you know, 5 00:00:25,624 --> 00:00:28,464 Speaker 2: on the many years that I've been hosting the Spill podcast, 6 00:00:28,624 --> 00:00:32,264 Speaker 2: we have talked about the iconic teen drama One Tree 7 00:00:32,344 --> 00:00:35,624 Speaker 2: Hill too many times to count. Not only is it 8 00:00:35,704 --> 00:00:39,024 Speaker 2: one of my personal favorite shows, but it has become 9 00:00:39,104 --> 00:00:41,984 Speaker 2: quite iconic in pop culture, not just for the beloved 10 00:00:42,064 --> 00:00:45,504 Speaker 2: characters and the storylines, but also from some of the 11 00:00:45,544 --> 00:00:48,024 Speaker 2: allegations that came out from the cast against the show 12 00:00:48,064 --> 00:00:50,664 Speaker 2: runner many years later. So if you haven't watched One 13 00:00:50,664 --> 00:00:52,464 Speaker 2: Tree Hill, and I don't believe there are too many 14 00:00:52,464 --> 00:00:54,784 Speaker 2: people in our spill community that fall into that bracket, 15 00:00:54,784 --> 00:00:57,864 Speaker 2: but just in case, The iconic teen drama came out 16 00:00:57,904 --> 00:01:01,064 Speaker 2: in two thousand and three and it ran for nine seasons. 17 00:01:01,464 --> 00:01:04,104 Speaker 2: The show is about two half brothers who grew up 18 00:01:04,144 --> 00:01:07,024 Speaker 2: a strange from each other, played by Chad Michael Murray 19 00:01:07,064 --> 00:01:09,784 Speaker 2: and James Lafferty. They both get put on the same 20 00:01:09,824 --> 00:01:12,264 Speaker 2: basketball team and they come back together. But it's so 21 00:01:12,464 --> 00:01:17,104 Speaker 2: much more than a show about teenagers or basketball, anything 22 00:01:17,184 --> 00:01:20,064 Speaker 2: like that. It becomes this whole community. It's about growing up, 23 00:01:20,104 --> 00:01:24,384 Speaker 2: falling in love, issues with parents, there's some stalking in there, romance. 24 00:01:24,504 --> 00:01:27,424 Speaker 2: Pretty Much every storyline you think could appear on a 25 00:01:27,464 --> 00:01:30,424 Speaker 2: TV show happened on One Tree Hill. It also made 26 00:01:30,664 --> 00:01:34,264 Speaker 2: household names of the cast members, especially the show's three 27 00:01:34,344 --> 00:01:38,544 Speaker 2: leading ladies, Sophia Bush, Hillary Burton Morgan, and of course 28 00:01:38,904 --> 00:01:42,704 Speaker 2: Bethany joy Lenz, who portrayed the iconic Hailey James Scott. 29 00:01:42,944 --> 00:01:45,744 Speaker 2: So Hailey James Scott was always seen as a bit 30 00:01:45,784 --> 00:01:48,064 Speaker 2: of the good girl of the show. Her romance with 31 00:01:48,184 --> 00:01:50,704 Speaker 2: Nathan Scott was a real pillar of the show. That's 32 00:01:50,744 --> 00:01:52,824 Speaker 2: what happens when you get married when you're still in 33 00:01:52,904 --> 00:01:55,904 Speaker 2: high school twice. But it only came out years later 34 00:01:55,984 --> 00:01:59,784 Speaker 2: that while Bethany joy Lenz was portraying Hailey on One 35 00:01:59,824 --> 00:02:03,024 Speaker 2: Tree Hill being this musician and wonderful character that so 36 00:02:03,144 --> 00:02:06,024 Speaker 2: many women across the world looked up to, it also 37 00:02:06,184 --> 00:02:08,544 Speaker 2: came out that at the time she was part of 38 00:02:08,904 --> 00:02:13,224 Speaker 2: a very manipulative, dangerous cult. And it's only recently that 39 00:02:13,304 --> 00:02:16,064 Speaker 2: we have really seen these jewel lives that she was 40 00:02:16,104 --> 00:02:19,224 Speaker 2: living while she was in that spotlight the interview that 41 00:02:19,264 --> 00:02:21,984 Speaker 2: you are about to hear sheds even more light on 42 00:02:22,064 --> 00:02:24,664 Speaker 2: her situation and what was going on behind the scenes. 43 00:02:24,944 --> 00:02:29,024 Speaker 2: Because Bethany Joy Lens was interviewed on another Mamma Mia podcast, 44 00:02:29,184 --> 00:02:32,864 Speaker 2: No Filter, which is hosted by Mia Friedman, and because 45 00:02:32,904 --> 00:02:35,264 Speaker 2: we have talked about Bethany and her show and her 46 00:02:35,304 --> 00:02:38,264 Speaker 2: co hosts so many times over the years, we thought 47 00:02:38,264 --> 00:02:41,024 Speaker 2: this was such an important story for you to all 48 00:02:41,064 --> 00:02:44,384 Speaker 2: hear this story in Bethany joy Lens's own words. In 49 00:02:44,424 --> 00:02:47,464 Speaker 2: this interview with Mia Freeman, she discusses how she became 50 00:02:47,544 --> 00:02:49,904 Speaker 2: involved in the cult, the cost of that chapter in 51 00:02:49,944 --> 00:02:53,264 Speaker 2: her life, which is literally millions of dollars, and the 52 00:02:53,344 --> 00:03:14,104 Speaker 2: journey that ultimately led her to reclaim her freedom. 53 00:03:05,104 --> 00:03:08,664 Speaker 1: From Mamma Maya. I'm Maya Friedman. You're listening to No Filter, 54 00:03:09,304 --> 00:03:13,624 Speaker 1: and this is an episode about cults and Bethany Joy Lentz, 55 00:03:13,664 --> 00:03:17,744 Speaker 1: who has been in two different kinds of cults, a 56 00:03:17,784 --> 00:03:22,384 Speaker 1: good cult and a really really bad one. The good 57 00:03:22,464 --> 00:03:25,744 Speaker 1: kind is the television show One Tree Hill, where she 58 00:03:25,864 --> 00:03:29,224 Speaker 1: played the iconic character Hayley for nearly a decade. 59 00:03:29,304 --> 00:03:31,984 Speaker 3: We made our decision, we got married and were happy. 60 00:03:31,984 --> 00:03:33,504 Speaker 3: And if you're not here to celebrate with us, then 61 00:03:33,504 --> 00:03:36,344 Speaker 3: you should just go home, because I don't want you here, and. 62 00:03:36,304 --> 00:03:40,504 Speaker 1: Which even today has what we would colloquially call a 63 00:03:40,584 --> 00:03:43,504 Speaker 1: cult following, because when we use that word to talk 64 00:03:43,544 --> 00:03:47,304 Speaker 1: about a TV show or a band, what we're saying 65 00:03:47,384 --> 00:03:51,984 Speaker 1: is that it's captivated a particular type of very committed audience, 66 00:03:52,504 --> 00:03:55,264 Speaker 1: and that it has a devoted following, and that it's 67 00:03:55,304 --> 00:03:58,704 Speaker 1: something that's become almost a part of the fabric of 68 00:03:58,744 --> 00:04:01,744 Speaker 1: who those people are. And those are the features of 69 00:04:01,784 --> 00:04:05,624 Speaker 1: the more sinister and truer meaning of the word cult 70 00:04:05,664 --> 00:04:10,624 Speaker 1: as well. And Bethany Joy Lentz, who prefers to by 71 00:04:10,624 --> 00:04:13,504 Speaker 1: the name Joy, was in that kind of cult at 72 00:04:13,504 --> 00:04:17,824 Speaker 1: the same time, she was in a bad, toxic, abusive 73 00:04:18,344 --> 00:04:22,064 Speaker 1: kind of cult. The kind of cult that isolates you 74 00:04:22,104 --> 00:04:26,184 Speaker 1: from your friends and family, that controls every facet of 75 00:04:26,224 --> 00:04:31,024 Speaker 1: your life, that demands your utter loyalty, and, in Joy's case, 76 00:04:31,584 --> 00:04:35,544 Speaker 1: your hard earned money millions of dollars. The kind of 77 00:04:35,584 --> 00:04:39,584 Speaker 1: cult that puts you in emotional and physical danger and 78 00:04:39,664 --> 00:04:43,304 Speaker 1: makes you too scared to ask for help, let alone 79 00:04:43,304 --> 00:04:49,424 Speaker 1: get away. But eventually, when something unthinkable and intolerable began 80 00:04:49,504 --> 00:04:54,104 Speaker 1: to happen, Joy did ask for help, and eventually she 81 00:04:54,184 --> 00:04:58,224 Speaker 1: did get out. She's written a memoir about her experience 82 00:04:58,584 --> 00:05:02,264 Speaker 1: called Dinner for Vampires. She spent a really long time 83 00:05:02,464 --> 00:05:05,344 Speaker 1: coming to terms with what happened to her, and she's 84 00:05:05,464 --> 00:05:10,544 Speaker 1: finally ready to talk about it, especially how she escaped 85 00:05:11,064 --> 00:05:15,824 Speaker 1: and recovered. It's an incredible story that was even more 86 00:05:15,864 --> 00:05:19,864 Speaker 1: incredible because it was happening under the noises of everybody 87 00:05:19,864 --> 00:05:22,464 Speaker 1: who watched and loved One Tree. 88 00:05:22,304 --> 00:05:24,264 Speaker 3: Heel for all those years. 89 00:05:24,784 --> 00:05:27,304 Speaker 1: Because the years that Joy was in that cult are 90 00:05:27,344 --> 00:05:31,104 Speaker 1: the same years that she was incredibly famous on one 91 00:05:31,144 --> 00:05:35,344 Speaker 1: of the most successful TV shows in the world. Here's 92 00:05:35,424 --> 00:05:39,624 Speaker 1: Joy with her story. The title of the book, Dinner 93 00:05:39,664 --> 00:05:43,704 Speaker 1: for Vampires, Where did that come from? 94 00:05:44,344 --> 00:05:47,024 Speaker 3: You know, that is as much my guess as it 95 00:05:47,064 --> 00:05:49,944 Speaker 3: is yours. It flew out of my pen. I was, well, 96 00:05:50,104 --> 00:05:52,744 Speaker 3: you know, my metaphoric pen, meaning my keyboard. I was 97 00:05:52,864 --> 00:05:58,464 Speaker 3: typing this paragraph that was just something about how I 98 00:05:58,504 --> 00:06:00,544 Speaker 3: never could have known in that moment that I would 99 00:06:00,584 --> 00:06:05,224 Speaker 3: eventually end up becoming dinner for these vampires. And as 100 00:06:05,264 --> 00:06:08,184 Speaker 3: it came out, I went, oh, yeah, that's actually exactly 101 00:06:08,184 --> 00:06:11,064 Speaker 3: what it was. That really encompasses the book, and I 102 00:06:11,184 --> 00:06:13,424 Speaker 3: like the tone of it. Being a little a little 103 00:06:13,424 --> 00:06:15,424 Speaker 3: tongue in cheek because I wanted that tone for the 104 00:06:15,424 --> 00:06:16,224 Speaker 3: book overall. 105 00:06:16,944 --> 00:06:21,424 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're the Dinner and the vampires are essentially 106 00:06:21,664 --> 00:06:22,944 Speaker 1: the Big House family. 107 00:06:23,624 --> 00:06:26,304 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it's a it's a term that's I think 108 00:06:26,344 --> 00:06:29,744 Speaker 3: commonly used for a narcissist. That's that's what they are. 109 00:06:29,784 --> 00:06:32,624 Speaker 3: They you know, they can't they don't have an identity 110 00:06:32,624 --> 00:06:35,144 Speaker 3: of their own, so they have to suck yours out. 111 00:06:35,144 --> 00:06:37,264 Speaker 3: They have to suck the life out of you. 112 00:06:37,264 --> 00:06:43,224 Speaker 1: You quote something from the series The Vow, and you said, 113 00:06:43,424 --> 00:06:46,304 Speaker 1: nobody joins a cult, you join a good thing. Nobody 114 00:06:46,304 --> 00:06:48,984 Speaker 1: walks into a situation and says, sign me up. I 115 00:06:49,024 --> 00:06:51,064 Speaker 1: want to fuck up the rest of my life. 116 00:06:51,624 --> 00:06:56,144 Speaker 3: That's Mark Vincent Davy. Yeah, that's such a great quote. 117 00:06:56,264 --> 00:06:58,704 Speaker 1: That's the name I was looking for, smart man, And 118 00:06:58,784 --> 00:07:02,104 Speaker 1: I want to start with a bit about your life 119 00:07:02,144 --> 00:07:06,424 Speaker 1: before you walked into that situation. You grew up in Texas. 120 00:07:07,464 --> 00:07:09,904 Speaker 1: When did you decide that you wanted to be an actor? 121 00:07:10,464 --> 00:07:13,704 Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I mean I wasn't aware that that could 122 00:07:13,744 --> 00:07:19,024 Speaker 3: really be something you do as a career until I 123 00:07:19,144 --> 00:07:22,224 Speaker 3: was probably ten or eleven. I think I started to 124 00:07:22,224 --> 00:07:24,464 Speaker 3: become really more aware that, oh, this is something people 125 00:07:24,504 --> 00:07:27,224 Speaker 3: actually do with their lives. But I did begin doing 126 00:07:27,264 --> 00:07:29,864 Speaker 3: local theater when I was about seven, and it was 127 00:07:29,944 --> 00:07:34,024 Speaker 3: probably just a way of my parents being like this, 128 00:07:34,104 --> 00:07:37,504 Speaker 3: she can't sit still, she's always singing, she's always writing 129 00:07:37,584 --> 00:07:40,864 Speaker 3: songs and making up stories and just be you know, 130 00:07:40,904 --> 00:07:44,504 Speaker 3: she's got this huge imagination. And my father was no 131 00:07:44,984 --> 00:07:47,584 Speaker 3: stranger to this, having grown up with two parents in 132 00:07:47,824 --> 00:07:50,824 Speaker 3: musical theater. I'm sure he was like, I know exactly 133 00:07:50,824 --> 00:07:52,904 Speaker 3: what this is. 134 00:07:52,904 --> 00:07:55,064 Speaker 1: Is that your grandmother Doris, because Shay was. 135 00:07:55,264 --> 00:07:57,264 Speaker 3: Yes, my grandma Doris, who I write about in the 136 00:07:57,304 --> 00:08:01,064 Speaker 3: book and the impact that she had in my artistic life. 137 00:08:01,144 --> 00:08:04,464 Speaker 3: And his father, George Lenz, who is I mean, playbill 138 00:08:04,544 --> 00:08:06,944 Speaker 3: dot com go check it out. You'll see his resume. 139 00:08:07,104 --> 00:08:12,344 Speaker 3: So he definitely recognized the sign. And my mom was 140 00:08:12,904 --> 00:08:16,584 Speaker 3: also really creative, and so I think they both just went, 141 00:08:16,944 --> 00:08:18,704 Speaker 3: let's just put her in some theater and see if 142 00:08:18,704 --> 00:08:20,064 Speaker 3: that helps her get her energy out. 143 00:08:20,424 --> 00:08:23,104 Speaker 1: And it worked, because you started getting jobs as a kid, 144 00:08:23,344 --> 00:08:26,104 Speaker 1: and you traveled to LA and you built up your resume. 145 00:08:26,224 --> 00:08:29,024 Speaker 1: You got some pretty big gigs alongside people like Paul 146 00:08:29,064 --> 00:08:32,264 Speaker 1: Savino and James Franco, and eventually you got a regular 147 00:08:32,344 --> 00:08:35,744 Speaker 1: role on a really big soap opera, Guiding Light. What 148 00:08:35,904 --> 00:08:39,584 Speaker 1: was it like being a teenage girl navigating Hollywood and 149 00:08:39,624 --> 00:08:43,344 Speaker 1: then back home navigating a pretty religious family and community, 150 00:08:43,384 --> 00:08:44,944 Speaker 1: which is how you grew up? 151 00:08:45,584 --> 00:08:49,504 Speaker 3: Great question, you know, I never considered New York to 152 00:08:49,544 --> 00:08:52,704 Speaker 3: be Hollywood. There was so much more serious in New 153 00:08:52,784 --> 00:08:54,864 Speaker 3: York than it was whenever I would go to La 154 00:08:55,104 --> 00:08:58,944 Speaker 3: and go audition for pilots, you know, with the wide 155 00:08:59,024 --> 00:09:01,264 Speaker 3: roads and the sun and the palm trees and the 156 00:09:01,784 --> 00:09:06,264 Speaker 3: very sort of glamorous feeling in the air driving onto 157 00:09:06,304 --> 00:09:10,144 Speaker 3: these big studios, and so I would go and do 158 00:09:10,544 --> 00:09:14,104 Speaker 3: some of those pilots for a few weeks. But I 159 00:09:14,224 --> 00:09:16,224 Speaker 3: lived in New Jersey, and I was in New York 160 00:09:16,304 --> 00:09:18,424 Speaker 3: City for you know, three or four days out of 161 00:09:18,424 --> 00:09:20,504 Speaker 3: the week for my voice lessons and dance lessons and 162 00:09:20,904 --> 00:09:25,504 Speaker 3: auditions for films and things. So in New York, living 163 00:09:25,584 --> 00:09:28,544 Speaker 3: in that environment, I didn't feel really like I was 164 00:09:28,784 --> 00:09:32,944 Speaker 3: a part of that Hollywood experience as much as just 165 00:09:33,024 --> 00:09:36,224 Speaker 3: the very serious actory artist community in New York. 166 00:09:36,944 --> 00:09:39,704 Speaker 1: I was going to ask about how the church reacted 167 00:09:39,744 --> 00:09:43,424 Speaker 1: because as soap opera, you know, apart from the idea 168 00:09:43,464 --> 00:09:46,944 Speaker 1: of show business, the content on the soap opera itself. 169 00:09:47,144 --> 00:09:51,424 Speaker 1: I mean it's not raunchy, but you know, soaps aren't. 170 00:09:51,544 --> 00:09:55,864 Speaker 1: Are they godly? I don't know how they. 171 00:09:54,984 --> 00:09:57,104 Speaker 3: Well, the community I was a part of at the 172 00:09:57,104 --> 00:09:59,304 Speaker 3: time certainly didn't think so I was. I was a 173 00:09:59,344 --> 00:10:03,064 Speaker 3: part of the worship team, which is just the people 174 00:10:03,104 --> 00:10:05,504 Speaker 3: who sing music on stage when you go to a 175 00:10:05,584 --> 00:10:08,624 Speaker 3: church where they have music. Some churches do choirs and 176 00:10:08,664 --> 00:10:11,544 Speaker 3: some have a band on stage, and our was kind 177 00:10:11,584 --> 00:10:13,504 Speaker 3: of the band, and it was called the worship team 178 00:10:13,504 --> 00:10:15,904 Speaker 3: and I was on it, and they asked me to 179 00:10:15,904 --> 00:10:18,624 Speaker 3: step down after I got this job on a soap opera, 180 00:10:18,664 --> 00:10:22,984 Speaker 3: which was so confusing to me because to your original question, 181 00:10:23,184 --> 00:10:29,104 Speaker 3: navigating this spiritual life and also navigating being in the 182 00:10:29,264 --> 00:10:37,064 Speaker 3: entertainment industry was never terribly conflicting for me because to me, 183 00:10:37,544 --> 00:10:39,664 Speaker 3: like I was raised on the Bible, Like how do 184 00:10:39,704 --> 00:10:42,904 Speaker 3: you get better, bigger stories than the Bible? And I'm 185 00:10:42,944 --> 00:10:46,224 Speaker 3: a storyteller, so it went hand in hand to me. 186 00:10:46,344 --> 00:10:48,064 Speaker 3: I was just like, yeah, we're just making art, we're 187 00:10:48,064 --> 00:10:51,264 Speaker 3: telling stories. And I mean, you want to talk about 188 00:10:51,304 --> 00:10:54,264 Speaker 3: some really racy stuff, Like I could direct you to 189 00:10:54,304 --> 00:10:56,024 Speaker 3: several books in the Bible that have a lot of 190 00:10:56,144 --> 00:10:59,824 Speaker 3: really controversial things in them, so it just was not 191 00:11:00,064 --> 00:11:02,984 Speaker 3: on my radar. And I was really surprised when I 192 00:11:03,184 --> 00:11:06,424 Speaker 3: started to get older and realized that a lot of 193 00:11:06,464 --> 00:11:11,064 Speaker 3: people didn't view art in the same way that I did. 194 00:11:11,104 --> 00:11:14,424 Speaker 3: They felt like it was a very anti god, anti 195 00:11:14,464 --> 00:11:18,184 Speaker 3: religious thing, and I'm still baffled by that. 196 00:11:18,184 --> 00:11:21,424 Speaker 1: That contradiction must have been sort of hard to navigate. 197 00:11:21,464 --> 00:11:25,664 Speaker 1: And what's interesting to me is how you describe sort 198 00:11:25,664 --> 00:11:28,264 Speaker 1: of living at different times. You live alone in New 199 00:11:28,344 --> 00:11:32,024 Speaker 1: York and then eventually you moved to La Your faith 200 00:11:32,064 --> 00:11:34,744 Speaker 1: remains really important to you, and you always seek out 201 00:11:35,224 --> 00:11:39,504 Speaker 1: those subcultures of you know, artists who are also Christian. 202 00:11:40,064 --> 00:11:42,504 Speaker 1: So it wasn't just you that was feeling that contradiction. 203 00:11:43,064 --> 00:11:45,144 Speaker 3: And the thing is it didn't feel like a contradiction 204 00:11:45,304 --> 00:11:47,984 Speaker 3: to us. It seemed to be that way to so 205 00:11:48,064 --> 00:11:51,624 Speaker 3: many other people in the religious communities that we were in, 206 00:11:51,784 --> 00:11:54,224 Speaker 3: which was confusing. But yeah, so we would really seek 207 00:11:54,264 --> 00:11:56,744 Speaker 3: each other out, like, where are the other storytellers in 208 00:11:56,784 --> 00:12:00,024 Speaker 3: the world who believe in God, who have a sense 209 00:12:00,224 --> 00:12:05,384 Speaker 3: of morality? And that looks a specific way, I guess 210 00:12:05,504 --> 00:12:07,944 Speaker 3: is what I felt when I was young, and I 211 00:12:08,024 --> 00:12:11,824 Speaker 3: wanted to be surrounded by like my people. As anyone 212 00:12:12,464 --> 00:12:15,584 Speaker 3: with any set of beliefs I think looks for. You 213 00:12:15,744 --> 00:12:18,184 Speaker 3: want to have people around you that support what you 214 00:12:18,264 --> 00:12:21,024 Speaker 3: believe and to who can encourage you when you're feeling 215 00:12:21,064 --> 00:12:22,824 Speaker 3: down and things like that. So it seemed like a 216 00:12:22,904 --> 00:12:24,504 Speaker 3: very natural thing to look for. 217 00:12:25,104 --> 00:12:28,024 Speaker 1: You talk about floating around a little bit, about finding 218 00:12:28,064 --> 00:12:31,744 Speaker 1: your community, and then the night everything changed. What happened 219 00:12:31,744 --> 00:12:32,104 Speaker 1: on that. 220 00:12:32,144 --> 00:12:36,064 Speaker 3: Night, I yeah, So I had found this really lovely 221 00:12:36,144 --> 00:12:38,664 Speaker 3: group of people through my roommate in LA. I was 222 00:12:38,784 --> 00:12:41,864 Speaker 3: feeling sorry for you guys hear my dog's park sometimes 223 00:12:41,984 --> 00:12:46,064 Speaker 3: I loved them. I had moved to LA, I was 224 00:12:46,064 --> 00:12:49,464 Speaker 3: feeling really lonely. I missed my New York community. And 225 00:12:49,824 --> 00:12:52,184 Speaker 3: my roommate invited me to come to a Bible study 226 00:12:52,184 --> 00:12:54,544 Speaker 3: that she was a part of with other young artists 227 00:12:54,664 --> 00:12:59,664 Speaker 3: and entertainment industry professionals, and we all just became really 228 00:12:59,704 --> 00:13:02,144 Speaker 3: good friends and got to know each other very well. 229 00:13:02,144 --> 00:13:05,144 Speaker 3: It was an easy community to slip into, and there 230 00:13:05,264 --> 00:13:10,144 Speaker 3: wasn't anything that gave me red flags. In fact, I 231 00:13:10,384 --> 00:13:12,144 Speaker 3: didn't write about this in the book, but I remember 232 00:13:12,224 --> 00:13:15,504 Speaker 3: once when I was probably around the age of twelve, 233 00:13:16,264 --> 00:13:19,304 Speaker 3: my parents took us that we were visiting churches, and 234 00:13:19,344 --> 00:13:22,344 Speaker 3: my parents took me to this one church. We started 235 00:13:22,344 --> 00:13:24,424 Speaker 3: going for like three months and I just loved it. 236 00:13:24,464 --> 00:13:26,224 Speaker 3: I was so close, it was artists, it was all 237 00:13:26,264 --> 00:13:29,584 Speaker 3: this great thing. And then one day my dad said, 238 00:13:29,584 --> 00:13:32,184 Speaker 3: we're not going there anymore. After a church service. He 239 00:13:32,224 --> 00:13:34,304 Speaker 3: came and picked me up after the Sunday school youth 240 00:13:34,344 --> 00:13:36,624 Speaker 3: group thing, and I said, why he goes it's a cult. 241 00:13:37,704 --> 00:13:40,024 Speaker 3: It's like, what are you talking about, Dad, And he 242 00:13:40,144 --> 00:13:42,704 Speaker 3: was like, no, no, it's a cult. We got to go. 243 00:13:42,864 --> 00:13:44,784 Speaker 3: This is not right. And I was devastated. I like 244 00:13:44,904 --> 00:13:47,104 Speaker 3: missed this group of friends that I had built. And 245 00:13:47,184 --> 00:13:49,904 Speaker 3: so it's funny how you know, it can take a 246 00:13:49,904 --> 00:13:53,864 Speaker 3: while to notice things sometimes. And it felt really benign, 247 00:13:53,944 --> 00:13:55,824 Speaker 3: and I think it was. But then two of the 248 00:13:55,904 --> 00:13:59,304 Speaker 3: young men who were running the group, and they had 249 00:13:59,304 --> 00:14:03,184 Speaker 3: invited a pastor from another state to come down and 250 00:14:03,744 --> 00:14:07,304 Speaker 3: speak to the group, and he himself had been going 251 00:14:07,344 --> 00:14:10,264 Speaker 3: through a hard time leaving the church that he had 252 00:14:10,384 --> 00:14:14,824 Speaker 3: previously been associated with, and we were so young and 253 00:14:14,864 --> 00:14:18,704 Speaker 3: we felt really empathetic toward him and his family and 254 00:14:19,304 --> 00:14:22,104 Speaker 3: wanted to greet him with open arms, and we were 255 00:14:22,224 --> 00:14:25,344 Speaker 3: happy to have a real, older, actual pastor in our 256 00:14:25,424 --> 00:14:29,304 Speaker 3: midst and wanted to listen for his wisdom. I mean, 257 00:14:29,304 --> 00:14:31,464 Speaker 3: it was just a perfect storm. I think he looked 258 00:14:31,504 --> 00:14:35,384 Speaker 3: around and saw a bunch of young entertainment professionals and 259 00:14:35,424 --> 00:14:38,864 Speaker 3: got dollar signs in his eyes and went, oh, I 260 00:14:38,904 --> 00:14:41,024 Speaker 3: know what I can do here. But we weren't not 261 00:14:41,104 --> 00:14:41,544 Speaker 3: the wiser. 262 00:14:41,584 --> 00:14:44,424 Speaker 1: Of course, there's a sort of cost of characters who 263 00:14:44,464 --> 00:14:48,184 Speaker 1: went to your life at this point. Can you set 264 00:14:48,224 --> 00:14:51,984 Speaker 1: the stage a little bit and explain who Les and 265 00:14:52,064 --> 00:14:53,864 Speaker 1: Martin and Ed and Pam. 266 00:14:54,104 --> 00:14:57,184 Speaker 3: Ah? Yes, so in the book, I start to explain 267 00:14:58,224 --> 00:15:01,744 Speaker 3: when I meet this pastor whose name is Les and 268 00:15:01,904 --> 00:15:07,224 Speaker 3: his wife is Martin. He's got three sons, he's got 269 00:15:07,784 --> 00:15:12,384 Speaker 3: good friends who he's met through these younger gentlemen in 270 00:15:12,424 --> 00:15:16,744 Speaker 3: the group. Their parents are from the same state where 271 00:15:16,824 --> 00:15:21,384 Speaker 3: the pastor is from less and that's Ed and Pam. 272 00:15:21,824 --> 00:15:24,944 Speaker 3: They all have this history in Seventh day Adventism, which 273 00:15:24,984 --> 00:15:27,984 Speaker 3: I really knew nothing about. It was not I was 274 00:15:28,224 --> 00:15:33,344 Speaker 3: always raised in the non denominational charismatic Christian Church and 275 00:15:33,664 --> 00:15:37,344 Speaker 3: didn't know anything really about the other denominations, and so 276 00:15:38,024 --> 00:15:40,624 Speaker 3: it was interesting. I was curious. I wanted to know 277 00:15:40,704 --> 00:15:45,464 Speaker 3: more about their history and why they had grown disaffected 278 00:15:45,544 --> 00:15:49,624 Speaker 3: with their branch of Christianity. You know, I just felt 279 00:15:49,664 --> 00:15:53,344 Speaker 3: like a nice community to be a part of when 280 00:15:53,344 --> 00:15:56,104 Speaker 3: I didn't have my parents around or any of my 281 00:15:56,224 --> 00:15:58,064 Speaker 3: friends from the East Coast. 282 00:15:58,824 --> 00:16:03,904 Speaker 1: You refer to Less and Pam, even though they weren't 283 00:16:03,944 --> 00:16:06,944 Speaker 1: a couple, that they sort of become your spiritual parents. 284 00:16:07,384 --> 00:16:10,784 Speaker 1: Is that how you felt being a white from your 285 00:16:10,784 --> 00:16:11,504 Speaker 1: own family. 286 00:16:12,104 --> 00:16:18,704 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think anytime we're longing for pieces of community 287 00:16:18,744 --> 00:16:22,064 Speaker 3: that are not there's like gaps in our in our 288 00:16:22,104 --> 00:16:25,624 Speaker 3: heart for different people in community. We seek that out. 289 00:16:25,824 --> 00:16:30,024 Speaker 3: And I grew up as an only child. There was 290 00:16:30,064 --> 00:16:34,184 Speaker 3: a lot of tempestuousness in the air in my home 291 00:16:34,264 --> 00:16:37,544 Speaker 3: with my parents and what they were going through among themselves, 292 00:16:37,824 --> 00:16:40,944 Speaker 3: and I just really wanted to feel like I was 293 00:16:40,944 --> 00:16:44,024 Speaker 3: a part of a family, like a real family. And 294 00:16:44,104 --> 00:16:50,744 Speaker 3: so Less was this, you know, sort of jovial, sweet, funny, 295 00:16:51,104 --> 00:16:57,104 Speaker 3: irreverend character who was very warm in a way that 296 00:16:57,424 --> 00:17:00,464 Speaker 3: my father I think is really deep down. He's a 297 00:17:00,464 --> 00:17:03,744 Speaker 3: big puppy dog, but he's got a harder exterior. And 298 00:17:03,824 --> 00:17:09,664 Speaker 3: I was craving that open, masculine, warm energy that I 299 00:17:09,704 --> 00:17:13,984 Speaker 3: didn't eve a lot of as a child, and Pam 300 00:17:15,184 --> 00:17:21,064 Speaker 3: came in with the same type of motherly, gentle kind, sweet, 301 00:17:21,184 --> 00:17:27,224 Speaker 3: soft spoken, good listener, really encouraging and all these things 302 00:17:27,264 --> 00:17:31,304 Speaker 3: that I also believe my mother feels underneath her exterior. 303 00:17:31,824 --> 00:17:34,224 Speaker 3: But I you know, as a child, we only see 304 00:17:34,224 --> 00:17:37,944 Speaker 3: what we see, and so without understanding the complexity of 305 00:17:37,984 --> 00:17:40,944 Speaker 3: who people are and how we develop and what's really 306 00:17:40,944 --> 00:17:44,664 Speaker 3: going on behind the surface, it's hard to see those things. 307 00:17:44,704 --> 00:17:46,864 Speaker 3: And you know, again, I was young, so I just 308 00:17:46,984 --> 00:17:52,744 Speaker 3: was like, oh, warm, open dad figure, gentle kind, encouraging 309 00:17:52,784 --> 00:17:55,224 Speaker 3: mother figure. This is what I need in my life. 310 00:17:55,464 --> 00:17:58,784 Speaker 3: And I adopted them as much as they adopted me. Metaphorically. 311 00:17:59,624 --> 00:18:03,704 Speaker 1: I want to understand how, you know, it's seem so inoqs. 312 00:18:03,744 --> 00:18:06,144 Speaker 1: It's you go to a Bible study group, there's this 313 00:18:06,264 --> 00:18:11,784 Speaker 1: guest speaker onnot you're auditioning, you'll you're getting rolls, You're 314 00:18:11,824 --> 00:18:15,024 Speaker 1: twenty two years old, living in LA How does it 315 00:18:15,224 --> 00:18:18,904 Speaker 1: escalate like in the actual the next week? Do you 316 00:18:18,984 --> 00:18:22,904 Speaker 1: go again? And then how do things get to get 317 00:18:22,944 --> 00:18:25,504 Speaker 1: to the point, yeah, where you stop coming. I imagine 318 00:18:25,504 --> 00:18:27,504 Speaker 1: it's like frog and boiling water, right, It doesn't start 319 00:18:27,544 --> 00:18:28,504 Speaker 1: out boiling. 320 00:18:28,624 --> 00:18:31,264 Speaker 3: That's absolutely what it is. It's the frog and boiling water. 321 00:18:31,464 --> 00:18:34,464 Speaker 3: It happens so slowly, and so many of the things 322 00:18:34,784 --> 00:18:39,624 Speaker 3: are innocuous and look totally fine. And that's how that's 323 00:18:39,664 --> 00:18:42,784 Speaker 3: how narcissists get you, whether it's in a group dynamic 324 00:18:42,904 --> 00:18:46,624 Speaker 3: or whether it's in an individual personal relationship dynamic. There's 325 00:18:46,664 --> 00:18:50,664 Speaker 3: this love bombing phase where everything seems great and there's 326 00:18:50,744 --> 00:18:53,344 Speaker 3: only a couple of red flags like here and there, 327 00:18:53,424 --> 00:18:58,064 Speaker 3: but the good far outweighs the bad, or the things 328 00:18:58,104 --> 00:19:00,784 Speaker 3: that make sense far outweigh the couple of things that 329 00:19:00,824 --> 00:19:03,384 Speaker 3: you're like, I don't know about that, but i guess 330 00:19:03,424 --> 00:19:05,944 Speaker 3: everything else makes sense, so I'm sure it's fine. It 331 00:19:06,024 --> 00:19:09,944 Speaker 3: must be me. I'm so young, I'm so naive. They're so wise. 332 00:19:10,424 --> 00:19:13,344 Speaker 3: I really should just like listen and learn and trust, 333 00:19:14,624 --> 00:19:17,344 Speaker 3: which is a beautiful place to be and for anyone 334 00:19:17,424 --> 00:19:20,104 Speaker 3: to be curious and to be trusting people around you 335 00:19:20,224 --> 00:19:24,824 Speaker 3: and to be interested in people are who have been 336 00:19:24,864 --> 00:19:27,264 Speaker 3: through different things in life, Like, I think that's an 337 00:19:27,304 --> 00:19:30,544 Speaker 3: admirable quality. But of course, when you're so young, it's 338 00:19:30,584 --> 00:19:32,424 Speaker 3: easy to be taking advantage of when you're in that 339 00:19:32,504 --> 00:19:37,024 Speaker 3: place as well. So I mean, really, to answer your question, 340 00:19:37,064 --> 00:19:40,384 Speaker 3: the whole book is that story and why I wanted 341 00:19:40,424 --> 00:19:42,984 Speaker 3: to tell it that way was so that people could 342 00:19:43,064 --> 00:19:47,704 Speaker 3: see how slow and insidious it is. It's a long con. 343 00:19:47,944 --> 00:19:51,944 Speaker 3: It's a slow burn, and you've got to be able 344 00:19:51,984 --> 00:19:55,544 Speaker 3: to start to trust your instinct pretty early on if 345 00:19:55,544 --> 00:19:58,424 Speaker 3: you're not going to get sucked into something. Yeah, you 346 00:19:58,464 --> 00:20:01,904 Speaker 3: know that's got a narcissistic abuse agenda behind it. 347 00:20:06,904 --> 00:20:09,784 Speaker 1: More of my conversation with Joy after this show break. 348 00:20:13,784 --> 00:20:16,344 Speaker 1: You talk about some words that Less said to you 349 00:20:16,664 --> 00:20:19,544 Speaker 1: that sort of hooked you. He said, Joy, it's time 350 00:20:19,584 --> 00:20:21,704 Speaker 1: for you to come out of agreement with the idea 351 00:20:21,744 --> 00:20:24,664 Speaker 1: that you'll runner up and release the spirit of performance 352 00:20:24,784 --> 00:20:29,464 Speaker 1: for love. Why did those words hit so hard for you? 353 00:20:30,384 --> 00:20:34,784 Speaker 3: I was a needy kid, emotionally really needy kid. I 354 00:20:34,864 --> 00:20:38,344 Speaker 3: just wanted to be I wanted to feel safe and loved. 355 00:20:38,424 --> 00:20:41,184 Speaker 3: And I think that con that's something so many people 356 00:20:41,224 --> 00:20:44,264 Speaker 3: can relate to, being a child in a home where 357 00:20:45,544 --> 00:20:48,784 Speaker 3: there are loving parents who have a lot of their 358 00:20:48,784 --> 00:20:51,944 Speaker 3: own complications going on. Parents had me when they were 359 00:20:51,984 --> 00:20:55,464 Speaker 3: twenty two years old. I mean, and they came from 360 00:20:55,544 --> 00:20:59,864 Speaker 3: broken homes. They came from homes with addiction and patterns 361 00:20:59,984 --> 00:21:05,304 Speaker 3: of behavioral abuse, and patterns of fear and I mean, 362 00:21:05,304 --> 00:21:08,784 Speaker 3: there's just so much that they were carrying in and 363 00:21:08,824 --> 00:21:10,984 Speaker 3: then trying to raise a little girl with no money 364 00:21:11,304 --> 00:21:14,704 Speaker 3: and you know, bouncing around from job to job and 365 00:21:14,744 --> 00:21:18,144 Speaker 3: doing their best. I mean, how difficult must that have 366 00:21:18,224 --> 00:21:24,464 Speaker 3: been for them? And I adopted very early on the 367 00:21:25,064 --> 00:21:27,584 Speaker 3: I've got me like you guys clearly have a lot 368 00:21:27,624 --> 00:21:30,624 Speaker 3: going on. Don't worry about me. I'll stay out of 369 00:21:30,624 --> 00:21:34,024 Speaker 3: the way. I don't want to take up space and 370 00:21:34,064 --> 00:21:35,584 Speaker 3: the one. But of course I did want to take 371 00:21:35,624 --> 00:21:38,424 Speaker 3: up space because everyone inherently deserves to take up space 372 00:21:38,424 --> 00:21:41,024 Speaker 3: on the planet. So you know, you're never going to 373 00:21:41,024 --> 00:21:42,784 Speaker 3: get away from that. And so the way that I 374 00:21:42,824 --> 00:21:45,224 Speaker 3: found to take up space was on stage, which is, 375 00:21:45,584 --> 00:21:47,344 Speaker 3: you know, just put me on a stage. I can 376 00:21:47,384 --> 00:21:49,824 Speaker 3: take up all the space on an entire stage. Just 377 00:21:49,864 --> 00:21:51,944 Speaker 3: put me there on a spotlight and we'll be golden 378 00:21:52,624 --> 00:21:56,024 Speaker 3: and as well. Yes, And that's so I felt so free, 379 00:21:56,104 --> 00:21:59,304 Speaker 3: and I felt so like, oh, that's my identity is here. 380 00:21:59,344 --> 00:22:00,904 Speaker 3: But you have to work hard and you have to 381 00:22:00,944 --> 00:22:02,584 Speaker 3: prove it. And if you make a joke and the 382 00:22:02,584 --> 00:22:07,824 Speaker 3: audience doesn't laugh, you're failing at taking up space properly. 383 00:22:07,904 --> 00:22:09,544 Speaker 3: You feel like you don't deserve to take up that 384 00:22:09,584 --> 00:22:12,584 Speaker 3: space because you're not doing a good enough job. And 385 00:22:12,664 --> 00:22:17,064 Speaker 3: so that mindset then carried for me into so many 386 00:22:17,104 --> 00:22:21,944 Speaker 3: realms beyond entertainment, but just in my relationships at school, 387 00:22:21,944 --> 00:22:24,944 Speaker 3: my friendships, in my relationship at home with my parents, 388 00:22:24,984 --> 00:22:27,264 Speaker 3: and trying to earn you know, do things everything the 389 00:22:27,344 --> 00:22:31,264 Speaker 3: right way, my relationship with God. Really trying to get 390 00:22:31,304 --> 00:22:33,584 Speaker 3: everything right and do the things on the checklist and 391 00:22:33,664 --> 00:22:37,464 Speaker 3: make sure that I was earning my way. And it 392 00:22:37,544 --> 00:22:43,984 Speaker 3: was an absolutely true observation that also in retrospect is 393 00:22:44,144 --> 00:22:47,344 Speaker 3: just such a cheap trick, because it's like going to 394 00:22:47,344 --> 00:22:49,584 Speaker 3: see a psychic on a corner and they're like, Oh, 395 00:22:49,624 --> 00:22:52,384 Speaker 3: I'm feeling like you have a dog, but there's your 396 00:22:52,744 --> 00:22:55,984 Speaker 3: jackets covered in dog hair, you know what I mean. Yeah, 397 00:22:56,464 --> 00:22:58,104 Speaker 3: you know, when you're twenty, you're like, oh my. 398 00:22:58,024 --> 00:23:02,264 Speaker 1: God, I feel so sane. I was thinking so much 399 00:23:02,264 --> 00:23:05,024 Speaker 1: about I want to ask about way your acting career 400 00:23:05,224 --> 00:23:09,464 Speaker 1: was at these times, because the vulnerability of actors and 401 00:23:09,544 --> 00:23:13,424 Speaker 1: creative people who need to audition and be rejected and 402 00:23:13,544 --> 00:23:17,624 Speaker 1: audition and be rejected and try and be rejected, and 403 00:23:17,624 --> 00:23:20,744 Speaker 1: then if you get a gig, you get this massive attention, 404 00:23:20,904 --> 00:23:24,664 Speaker 1: so that the whiplash of that must leave you kind 405 00:23:24,704 --> 00:23:28,664 Speaker 1: of emotionally vulnerable to someone who says you're amazing, you'll loved, 406 00:23:29,584 --> 00:23:30,464 Speaker 1: you're the main event. 407 00:23:31,264 --> 00:23:35,704 Speaker 3: It does, It definitely leaves you feeling like, uh, it 408 00:23:35,784 --> 00:23:38,824 Speaker 3: well left me feeling like, let's see, this is what's 409 00:23:38,824 --> 00:23:41,704 Speaker 3: so's to continue answering your question, like this is what's 410 00:23:41,744 --> 00:23:45,664 Speaker 3: so insidious about it? To take something that is absolutely true, 411 00:23:45,904 --> 00:23:48,544 Speaker 3: You as a human being have value. You don't have 412 00:23:48,624 --> 00:23:51,544 Speaker 3: to earn it. You're not second place, you are always 413 00:23:51,744 --> 00:23:54,344 Speaker 3: first place. You're never runner up, because this is your 414 00:23:54,424 --> 00:23:57,264 Speaker 3: life and your story and your relationship with the God 415 00:23:57,264 --> 00:24:01,064 Speaker 3: of your understanding, all of those things. But this is 416 00:24:01,064 --> 00:24:03,304 Speaker 3: what the narcissist will do. They get you into a 417 00:24:03,344 --> 00:24:07,424 Speaker 3: position of vulnerability with something that is absolutely true and 418 00:24:07,544 --> 00:24:11,984 Speaker 3: cracks you open and pours this love and positivity into 419 00:24:12,024 --> 00:24:15,064 Speaker 3: you so that you feel attached to them and you 420 00:24:15,104 --> 00:24:17,384 Speaker 3: feel a sense of loyalty to them, And then when 421 00:24:17,424 --> 00:24:20,304 Speaker 3: they start saying really terrible things about you, you really 422 00:24:20,344 --> 00:24:24,624 Speaker 3: believe those things as well, because obviously they can see 423 00:24:24,784 --> 00:24:26,624 Speaker 3: what's really you know, in your mind, they can see 424 00:24:26,624 --> 00:24:29,304 Speaker 3: what's really going on. I don't know if that exactly 425 00:24:29,344 --> 00:24:30,144 Speaker 3: adds your question. 426 00:24:30,424 --> 00:24:34,304 Speaker 1: No, it does. One of the things that is so 427 00:24:34,504 --> 00:24:39,784 Speaker 1: endemic in abuse and cults is isolation. And yes, who 428 00:24:39,784 --> 00:24:45,064 Speaker 1: did the Big Family, which is what this group called itself, right, 429 00:24:45,664 --> 00:24:49,104 Speaker 1: the Big House, the Big House family. Who was in 430 00:24:49,144 --> 00:24:49,704 Speaker 1: the Big House? 431 00:24:49,944 --> 00:24:50,144 Speaker 3: Well? 432 00:24:50,184 --> 00:24:51,424 Speaker 1: And was it an actual house? 433 00:24:51,664 --> 00:24:55,344 Speaker 3: It was an actual house. It was in my story 434 00:24:55,544 --> 00:24:59,304 Speaker 3: Pam and Ed's house. Ed was a doctor and you know, 435 00:24:59,384 --> 00:25:02,504 Speaker 3: well respected in the community. So it was their house, 436 00:25:03,424 --> 00:25:08,224 Speaker 3: and they, out of the goodness of their hearts, offered 437 00:25:08,304 --> 00:25:12,264 Speaker 3: their home to less and Martin, who were being displaced 438 00:25:12,304 --> 00:25:15,544 Speaker 3: from their pastoral home at a previous church. If you're 439 00:25:15,584 --> 00:25:18,664 Speaker 3: not involved in any kind of religious community, I will 440 00:25:18,664 --> 00:25:21,464 Speaker 3: give you a basic rundown, which is that when oftentimes 441 00:25:21,504 --> 00:25:25,384 Speaker 3: pastors are brought in from other states and their family 442 00:25:25,464 --> 00:25:28,304 Speaker 3: is given a home to live in that the church owns. 443 00:25:28,984 --> 00:25:32,424 Speaker 3: So it was some sort of a little mental gymnastics 444 00:25:32,424 --> 00:25:34,464 Speaker 3: because there was no actual church. We didn't have an 445 00:25:34,504 --> 00:25:36,584 Speaker 3: actual five oh one c. Three, we didn't have any 446 00:25:36,664 --> 00:25:40,504 Speaker 3: kind of service times, that's a central meeting place, none 447 00:25:40,504 --> 00:25:44,424 Speaker 3: of those things that qualified as a church. But because 448 00:25:44,464 --> 00:25:48,704 Speaker 3: he was a pastor, and because Pam and Ed had 449 00:25:48,824 --> 00:25:51,144 Speaker 3: this home that their kids had left, and it was 450 00:25:51,144 --> 00:25:53,024 Speaker 3: this great, big house, and they just said, well, we're 451 00:25:53,064 --> 00:25:55,104 Speaker 3: going to move into a smaller We'll move into the 452 00:25:55,104 --> 00:25:57,584 Speaker 3: garage and convert it into an apartment and you can 453 00:25:57,624 --> 00:26:00,104 Speaker 3: take our home and this will be like your pastoral 454 00:26:00,624 --> 00:26:04,544 Speaker 3: home as it were. So again mental gymnastics, but I'm 455 00:26:04,584 --> 00:26:06,384 Speaker 3: sure he convinced them to do it on some level. 456 00:26:06,384 --> 00:26:07,944 Speaker 3: I was not a part of that conversation, so I 457 00:26:07,984 --> 00:26:11,304 Speaker 3: can't say for sure. But living in the house was 458 00:26:12,024 --> 00:26:16,424 Speaker 3: in the garage we had Pam and Ed, and then 459 00:26:16,664 --> 00:26:20,984 Speaker 3: in the big house itself there was Lesson Martine, there 460 00:26:21,024 --> 00:26:28,064 Speaker 3: three boys, there were three girls, me, Jasmine and Gretchen. 461 00:26:28,784 --> 00:26:31,744 Speaker 3: And then in the basement there was another family of 462 00:26:31,824 --> 00:26:36,304 Speaker 3: people who knew less and Pam, and that was Kurt 463 00:26:36,344 --> 00:26:38,944 Speaker 3: and his wife Lucy and their son Brandon. And so 464 00:26:38,984 --> 00:26:41,624 Speaker 3: it was just like a little commune. And then neighboring 465 00:26:41,864 --> 00:26:44,344 Speaker 3: we had several other people who were a part of 466 00:26:44,344 --> 00:26:48,664 Speaker 3: the group that all lived in homes within two mile radius. 467 00:26:49,224 --> 00:26:50,984 Speaker 1: Who did they teach that the enemy was? 468 00:26:51,504 --> 00:26:55,504 Speaker 3: The enemy is a very common term in Christian circles 469 00:26:55,744 --> 00:26:58,704 Speaker 3: to refer to Satan or the devil, So that was 470 00:26:58,904 --> 00:27:05,184 Speaker 3: the explicit verbiage used around a dark spiritual enemy. The 471 00:27:05,264 --> 00:27:11,064 Speaker 3: implicit youth or well, I guess how I explain this, 472 00:27:11,504 --> 00:27:15,264 Speaker 3: The enemy was really anyone who just disagreed with the 473 00:27:15,304 --> 00:27:18,424 Speaker 3: group any less, anyone who disagreed with less, anyone who 474 00:27:18,824 --> 00:27:23,304 Speaker 3: had questions about the group. But that was never flat 475 00:27:23,344 --> 00:27:26,624 Speaker 3: out said because that sounds too crazy, Like you would 476 00:27:26,624 --> 00:27:29,504 Speaker 3: hear that and be like, well, you can't call my 477 00:27:29,584 --> 00:27:33,904 Speaker 3: mom the enemy, but you could say the enemies attacking 478 00:27:33,944 --> 00:27:37,304 Speaker 3: her working through her. You know, pray for your mom 479 00:27:37,384 --> 00:27:40,264 Speaker 3: because she doesn't know that, you know, the enemy's really 480 00:27:40,264 --> 00:27:41,464 Speaker 3: attacking her right now. 481 00:27:42,224 --> 00:27:46,584 Speaker 1: So in scientology they call them suppressive persons. Uh huh, exactly, 482 00:27:46,584 --> 00:27:50,904 Speaker 1: it's kind of anyone who threatens or challenges the ideology. 483 00:27:51,024 --> 00:27:54,384 Speaker 1: And your parents, who were divorced by this point and 484 00:27:54,664 --> 00:28:00,184 Speaker 1: are very religious themselves, they was suspicious of this whole situation. 485 00:28:00,384 --> 00:28:02,824 Speaker 1: What were the early red flags for them? 486 00:28:03,064 --> 00:28:06,544 Speaker 3: Well, as I said, my dad was onto it. He 487 00:28:06,664 --> 00:28:11,944 Speaker 3: was onto it pretty early. I think my mom was too. 488 00:28:12,024 --> 00:28:15,984 Speaker 3: I think she was more concerned just that I wasn't 489 00:28:16,704 --> 00:28:18,784 Speaker 3: visiting her as much. I lived. I had moved to 490 00:28:18,784 --> 00:28:21,224 Speaker 3: California and we were on the same coast again, and 491 00:28:21,264 --> 00:28:24,224 Speaker 3: I wasn't visiting as much. And I really thought of 492 00:28:24,264 --> 00:28:28,024 Speaker 3: that more as just natural independence from a parent at 493 00:28:28,064 --> 00:28:31,184 Speaker 3: a young age. But I think my dad, my dad 494 00:28:31,224 --> 00:28:33,424 Speaker 3: just saw the signs. He was hearing me talk about 495 00:28:33,464 --> 00:28:36,424 Speaker 3: things like I write about in the book. This conversation 496 00:28:36,584 --> 00:28:39,744 Speaker 3: my dad and I had where I was trying to 497 00:28:40,064 --> 00:28:42,584 Speaker 3: explain to him how I was asking God, like what 498 00:28:42,584 --> 00:28:46,424 Speaker 3: should I wear today, you know, just any little thing. 499 00:28:46,704 --> 00:28:49,224 Speaker 3: And I thought I was being really humble and open 500 00:28:49,304 --> 00:28:51,584 Speaker 3: and just like I just want God, I just want 501 00:28:51,624 --> 00:28:53,904 Speaker 3: you to tell me what to do in every area 502 00:28:53,944 --> 00:28:56,704 Speaker 3: of my life ever. And my Dad's like, yeah, but 503 00:28:56,824 --> 00:29:00,464 Speaker 3: God gave you a brain, like you're supposed to be 504 00:29:00,624 --> 00:29:05,584 Speaker 3: using your brain. This is not just you just wait 505 00:29:05,664 --> 00:29:07,344 Speaker 3: and see and say. And then how can you tell 506 00:29:07,384 --> 00:29:09,624 Speaker 3: that God is speaking to you? I mean, that's quite 507 00:29:09,624 --> 00:29:12,824 Speaker 3: a thing to Yeah, God speaking to you, Like, that's 508 00:29:12,864 --> 00:29:15,504 Speaker 3: a very serious thing to claim, I think, and my 509 00:29:15,584 --> 00:29:18,664 Speaker 3: dad thought so too, But at the time I didn't. 510 00:29:18,824 --> 00:29:21,544 Speaker 3: I just thought it was very sort of whimsical and fun. 511 00:29:22,424 --> 00:29:23,344 Speaker 3: But yeah, they caught on. 512 00:29:25,384 --> 00:29:29,344 Speaker 1: In this exchange that Joy tells from the audiobook version 513 00:29:29,424 --> 00:29:33,264 Speaker 1: of her memoir, she illustrates the dangerous gender ideology that 514 00:29:33,264 --> 00:29:35,664 Speaker 1: the cult promoted and some of the ways that it 515 00:29:35,664 --> 00:29:37,384 Speaker 1: had gotten right. Unto her skin. 516 00:29:37,784 --> 00:29:41,024 Speaker 3: Lucy interjected, Now you're not married, but if you were, 517 00:29:41,184 --> 00:29:44,704 Speaker 3: your husband would be your spiritual authority. She rubbed Kurt's leg. 518 00:29:45,584 --> 00:29:49,504 Speaker 3: My chest tightened instantly in spite of hearing this statement. 519 00:29:49,584 --> 00:29:52,904 Speaker 3: My whole life in church gender roles in American Christianity 520 00:29:53,144 --> 00:29:56,424 Speaker 3: never sat right with me, or my mother or either 521 00:29:56,464 --> 00:30:01,424 Speaker 3: of my grandmother's. But in the context of this Jezebel conversation, 522 00:30:01,584 --> 00:30:04,584 Speaker 3: it occurred to me that perhaps that was exactly the point. 523 00:30:05,464 --> 00:30:08,744 Speaker 3: I came from a long line of independent, dominant women, 524 00:30:08,864 --> 00:30:13,384 Speaker 3: and just maybe the Jezebel's spirit had already infiltrated my 525 00:30:13,424 --> 00:30:16,784 Speaker 3: family my mind. Maybe that was why I could never 526 00:30:16,824 --> 00:30:20,664 Speaker 3: get on board with the whole submissive wife idea. Was 527 00:30:20,704 --> 00:30:24,184 Speaker 3: I being attacked by an ancient spirit of control? Was 528 00:30:24,424 --> 00:30:26,744 Speaker 3: being a woman in submission the key I had been 529 00:30:26,744 --> 00:30:27,664 Speaker 3: missing all along? 530 00:30:28,824 --> 00:30:32,184 Speaker 1: So as you drawing closer to the big cast family, 531 00:30:32,784 --> 00:30:35,024 Speaker 1: what was going on in your career around this time? 532 00:30:35,864 --> 00:30:39,704 Speaker 3: I was continuing to work as an actress in LA 533 00:30:39,824 --> 00:30:42,784 Speaker 3: I was getting great jobs. I got a job on 534 00:30:43,184 --> 00:30:47,824 Speaker 3: Felicity Charmed, and I did a sequel to Bring It 535 00:30:47,864 --> 00:30:52,224 Speaker 3: On called Bring It On Again, which my daughter still 536 00:30:52,224 --> 00:30:54,264 Speaker 3: has yet to see. She just go to see that sometimes. 537 00:30:54,264 --> 00:30:58,864 Speaker 3: Soon I was doing theater. I got cast in Gary 538 00:30:58,904 --> 00:31:02,584 Speaker 3: Marshall and Carol King's production of Happy Days the Musical. 539 00:31:03,064 --> 00:31:06,344 Speaker 3: I did The Outsiders of Musical with Adam Lambert and 540 00:31:06,584 --> 00:31:08,824 Speaker 3: Alison Munn, who ended up being on Onntree Hill later. 541 00:31:09,784 --> 00:31:11,864 Speaker 3: That was by our through Alan Settlman. I mean, I 542 00:31:12,064 --> 00:31:15,184 Speaker 3: was really things were working, it was going really well. 543 00:31:15,784 --> 00:31:18,184 Speaker 1: Tell me about One Tree Hill. How did that come about? 544 00:31:18,464 --> 00:31:19,984 Speaker 3: This is one of the fun things that I wrote 545 00:31:19,984 --> 00:31:22,624 Speaker 3: about in the book, is how I it originally came 546 00:31:22,664 --> 00:31:24,584 Speaker 3: around and I said no, and then it came back 547 00:31:24,584 --> 00:31:27,624 Speaker 3: around again. And I'd get really into detail about why 548 00:31:27,664 --> 00:31:29,984 Speaker 3: I said no and what that time in my life 549 00:31:30,064 --> 00:31:32,704 Speaker 3: looked like in the book, but for now, I'll just 550 00:31:32,784 --> 00:31:35,624 Speaker 3: tell you that it came around. I said no. It 551 00:31:35,664 --> 00:31:38,904 Speaker 3: came back around about two weeks before they started filming 552 00:31:39,064 --> 00:31:41,664 Speaker 3: the first episode, and they were going to reshoot a 553 00:31:41,664 --> 00:31:44,184 Speaker 3: couple scenes from the pilot that I would be in, 554 00:31:44,864 --> 00:31:47,744 Speaker 3: and I said yes. I said, okay, let's give it 555 00:31:47,784 --> 00:31:51,504 Speaker 3: a try. Why not, I'll just leave it up to 556 00:31:51,544 --> 00:31:53,504 Speaker 3: God and see if you want me to move to 557 00:31:53,504 --> 00:31:57,024 Speaker 3: North Carolina. And when I got the job, it was 558 00:31:57,104 --> 00:32:00,784 Speaker 3: within days of auditioning probably four days. I mean, it 559 00:32:00,864 --> 00:32:02,024 Speaker 3: all happened very quickly. 560 00:32:02,584 --> 00:32:04,864 Speaker 1: It's funny. The tagline of your book is so brilliant 561 00:32:04,984 --> 00:32:07,144 Speaker 1: life on a cult TV show while also in an 562 00:32:07,184 --> 00:32:11,824 Speaker 1: actual cult If I'm met you during that time when 563 00:32:11,904 --> 00:32:14,304 Speaker 1: you were on One Tree Hill, if I was among 564 00:32:14,304 --> 00:32:18,304 Speaker 1: the castle crew, what would I have noticed about you 565 00:32:18,984 --> 00:32:22,544 Speaker 1: that would have made me go, oh, that's a bit weird. 566 00:32:23,504 --> 00:32:27,704 Speaker 3: I think it really was mostly that I talked about 567 00:32:27,744 --> 00:32:30,344 Speaker 3: my family, and then the more people would ask me 568 00:32:30,424 --> 00:32:32,544 Speaker 3: questions about it, they would realize, oh, this isn't your 569 00:32:32,624 --> 00:32:35,784 Speaker 3: actual family. And I detail this in the book. There's 570 00:32:35,944 --> 00:32:38,664 Speaker 3: you know, there would be a moment where somebody might say, so, 571 00:32:38,704 --> 00:32:41,504 Speaker 3: your mom's in California and your dad's in New Jersey, 572 00:32:41,664 --> 00:32:43,904 Speaker 3: but you spend all your time in Idaho with your 573 00:32:44,304 --> 00:32:47,224 Speaker 3: family who's not are you related to them? Are you? 574 00:32:47,824 --> 00:32:49,664 Speaker 3: And the more that I would explain, well, no, it's 575 00:32:49,704 --> 00:32:52,144 Speaker 3: like a spiritual family. It's like my chosen family, you know. 576 00:32:52,704 --> 00:32:55,024 Speaker 3: And then I think those were kind of key moments 577 00:32:55,024 --> 00:32:56,944 Speaker 3: where people are like, yeah, they do exactly what you 578 00:32:56,984 --> 00:32:57,544 Speaker 3: just did, Like. 579 00:32:59,944 --> 00:33:02,264 Speaker 1: Okay, like backing slowly away, Yeah. 580 00:33:02,224 --> 00:33:05,824 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. That's interesting, And what do you guys do together. 581 00:33:06,104 --> 00:33:10,544 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, was part of the Big House family and 582 00:33:10,944 --> 00:33:15,344 Speaker 1: that family. Cults are about recruiting new people usually, So 583 00:33:15,464 --> 00:33:18,744 Speaker 1: did you like proselytize and sort of we were evangelical 584 00:33:18,784 --> 00:33:21,864 Speaker 1: and try to get people to join the family or 585 00:33:21,904 --> 00:33:24,704 Speaker 1: was it very much a closed gait? 586 00:33:25,344 --> 00:33:30,904 Speaker 3: I think because we had well, I think because it 587 00:33:31,224 --> 00:33:34,104 Speaker 3: became the Bank of Joy, Like I just funded everything. 588 00:33:34,344 --> 00:33:37,504 Speaker 3: So I don't think that there was a need for 589 00:33:37,744 --> 00:33:44,464 Speaker 3: recruiting in Less's mind because he was able to. It's funny, 590 00:33:44,464 --> 00:33:46,464 Speaker 3: he's kind of the worst cult leader ever because he 591 00:33:46,664 --> 00:33:48,704 Speaker 3: just like I don't know if he was just lazy, 592 00:33:48,784 --> 00:33:51,464 Speaker 3: Like he definitely was lazy. I don't know if he 593 00:33:51,944 --> 00:33:54,264 Speaker 3: just didn't want to work that hard, Like it's just 594 00:33:54,264 --> 00:33:56,864 Speaker 3: so much work to go out and recruit people, and 595 00:33:57,904 --> 00:34:01,144 Speaker 3: he was already managing the twenty four of us that 596 00:34:01,184 --> 00:34:05,984 Speaker 3: were in the group. I also heard many years later, 597 00:34:06,024 --> 00:34:08,344 Speaker 3: when I was speaking to the DA's office and presenting 598 00:34:08,424 --> 00:34:11,104 Speaker 3: them with my financial case and everything that had gone 599 00:34:11,144 --> 00:34:14,744 Speaker 3: down and money that had crossed state lines, and we 600 00:34:14,744 --> 00:34:17,264 Speaker 3: were like, is the FBI need to get involved? The 601 00:34:17,384 --> 00:34:20,504 Speaker 3: DA said, yeah, I don't think we can really prosecute 602 00:34:20,504 --> 00:34:25,464 Speaker 3: this because it's less than seventy people, and anything less 603 00:34:25,504 --> 00:34:28,304 Speaker 3: than that isn't really considered a danger to society. It's 604 00:34:28,424 --> 00:34:32,144 Speaker 3: just like a like a little club that's gone back 605 00:34:32,504 --> 00:34:36,224 Speaker 3: like that. Yeah, yeah, and maybe he knew that. I 606 00:34:36,264 --> 00:34:38,424 Speaker 3: don't know if he knew that and tried to keep 607 00:34:38,464 --> 00:34:42,024 Speaker 3: it small on purpose, or if it was just too 608 00:34:42,104 --> 00:34:44,544 Speaker 3: much work and he just was happy to rest on 609 00:34:44,544 --> 00:34:48,944 Speaker 3: his laurels and whatever he had around, which was us. 610 00:34:49,424 --> 00:34:51,464 Speaker 1: When did he start taking money from you? 611 00:34:51,864 --> 00:34:55,104 Speaker 3: Well, the first pitch was it was a low ball, 612 00:34:55,624 --> 00:34:58,784 Speaker 3: ten thousand dollars. Y're on a TV series. That's nothing 613 00:34:58,904 --> 00:35:01,704 Speaker 3: for you. We want to open up a hotel. It's 614 00:35:01,744 --> 00:35:04,944 Speaker 3: going to be a ministry. We're going to bring people 615 00:35:05,024 --> 00:35:08,784 Speaker 3: in and help them fall in love with God and 616 00:35:08,984 --> 00:35:10,944 Speaker 3: let them know how loved they are. And we're just 617 00:35:10,984 --> 00:35:14,304 Speaker 3: going to be hospitable and it'll be a place where 618 00:35:14,344 --> 00:35:18,144 Speaker 3: we can have meetings and conferences and just really bless 619 00:35:18,224 --> 00:35:21,184 Speaker 3: the community. And I'm thinking I would love to be 620 00:35:21,224 --> 00:35:24,704 Speaker 3: a part of something that encourages the community. That sounds great. 621 00:35:25,384 --> 00:35:29,784 Speaker 3: A motel isn't really my idea of that dream, but 622 00:35:30,104 --> 00:35:31,944 Speaker 3: it's yours, and I care about you and I want 623 00:35:31,984 --> 00:35:36,264 Speaker 3: to support you. Yes, Sure, here's the check, and I 624 00:35:36,344 --> 00:35:39,944 Speaker 3: think that was the first like doorcrack open, Like how 625 00:35:39,984 --> 00:35:41,824 Speaker 3: much is she willing? What is she willing to do? Oh, 626 00:35:41,864 --> 00:35:44,384 Speaker 3: she'll give us money too. Oh you know, we also 627 00:35:44,504 --> 00:35:47,624 Speaker 3: really need a new we need a swamp cooler, we 628 00:35:47,704 --> 00:35:49,304 Speaker 3: need a you know what else we need you know. 629 00:35:49,344 --> 00:35:51,504 Speaker 3: And it's just like all the little things started to 630 00:35:51,984 --> 00:35:54,264 Speaker 3: in the same way that they've sort of latched on 631 00:35:54,344 --> 00:35:57,904 Speaker 3: and were sucking out my life emotionally. Then they started 632 00:35:57,984 --> 00:36:02,464 Speaker 3: siphoning off financially as well, once the testing proved to 633 00:36:02,504 --> 00:36:03,384 Speaker 3: be fruitful. 634 00:36:05,904 --> 00:36:12,904 Speaker 1: The rest of my conversation with Joy after this, did 635 00:36:12,904 --> 00:36:16,144 Speaker 1: you still have friends? What about dating? Like friends relationships? 636 00:36:16,344 --> 00:36:18,544 Speaker 1: You were engaged at one point to someone who wasn't 637 00:36:18,584 --> 00:36:19,304 Speaker 1: part of the group. 638 00:36:19,904 --> 00:36:24,264 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was. I was definitely still wanted to date, 639 00:36:24,344 --> 00:36:27,144 Speaker 3: still wanted to get I was obsessed with getting married. 640 00:36:27,184 --> 00:36:30,744 Speaker 3: I just really wanted to have a partner. And I 641 00:36:30,784 --> 00:36:34,264 Speaker 3: was engaged to someone after probably three months of dating 642 00:36:34,464 --> 00:36:38,944 Speaker 3: and knowing each other. It was so fast and it 643 00:36:38,984 --> 00:36:41,464 Speaker 3: was a very I do write about this in the 644 00:36:41,504 --> 00:36:46,824 Speaker 3: book sweet Man, But we both just really wanted to 645 00:36:46,904 --> 00:36:48,864 Speaker 3: get married, really wanted to have a companion, and it 646 00:36:48,904 --> 00:36:51,184 Speaker 3: didn't matter that we weren't combatible, and it didn't matter 647 00:36:51,224 --> 00:36:53,944 Speaker 3: that we had only known each other for a little while, 648 00:36:54,544 --> 00:36:56,824 Speaker 3: or that there were red flags from other friends of ours. 649 00:36:57,304 --> 00:37:00,904 Speaker 3: We just were like, let's do it. But I had 650 00:37:01,104 --> 00:37:04,504 Speaker 3: this sort of contingency in my mind of my family 651 00:37:04,784 --> 00:37:08,264 Speaker 3: up here that I've become so tight with. These are 652 00:37:08,264 --> 00:37:10,104 Speaker 3: my people, this is my tribe, This is who I 653 00:37:10,104 --> 00:37:12,864 Speaker 3: want to do life with. If they disapprove of you 654 00:37:13,584 --> 00:37:16,104 Speaker 3: as a spouse for me, then I probably am not 655 00:37:16,144 --> 00:37:18,464 Speaker 3: going to marry you because I want them more than 656 00:37:18,464 --> 00:37:20,504 Speaker 3: I want you, which ended up itself should have been 657 00:37:20,504 --> 00:37:22,144 Speaker 3: a huge clue as to why not to get married 658 00:37:22,144 --> 00:37:22,624 Speaker 3: to somebody? 659 00:37:22,704 --> 00:37:22,944 Speaker 1: Right? 660 00:37:23,264 --> 00:37:27,944 Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know again, you're so young, So yeah, 661 00:37:28,464 --> 00:37:31,504 Speaker 3: I did. I did really want a date, but because 662 00:37:31,544 --> 00:37:34,984 Speaker 3: I felt like I had these confines of the family 663 00:37:35,624 --> 00:37:38,584 Speaker 3: and location, because the man that I had been engaged 664 00:37:38,624 --> 00:37:42,544 Speaker 3: to was a local in North Carolina. How was that 665 00:37:42,584 --> 00:37:44,504 Speaker 3: going to work? How was I going to build a 666 00:37:44,544 --> 00:37:47,584 Speaker 3: life there when I had this family back in Idaho. 667 00:37:48,424 --> 00:37:55,304 Speaker 1: You did end up marrying Les's son, one of his sons. 668 00:37:56,504 --> 00:38:00,664 Speaker 1: Was that like an arranged situation or with a spots 669 00:38:00,744 --> 00:38:06,784 Speaker 1: and the developing of feelings natural, There were absolutely the 670 00:38:06,824 --> 00:38:11,144 Speaker 1: beginning sparks of something that felt fun and playful friendship. 671 00:38:12,264 --> 00:38:15,784 Speaker 3: I did explain to Less privately that I felt like 672 00:38:16,584 --> 00:38:20,904 Speaker 3: I was having these feelings mostly just because I wanted 673 00:38:20,904 --> 00:38:23,184 Speaker 3: to have them, because they were there for me to 674 00:38:23,304 --> 00:38:26,064 Speaker 3: have with. I mean, I had them for like any 675 00:38:26,104 --> 00:38:28,504 Speaker 3: boy that I was interacting with that was single, I was. 676 00:38:28,824 --> 00:38:31,104 Speaker 3: I was hoping that I might be able to let 677 00:38:31,104 --> 00:38:33,464 Speaker 3: this part of myself out, and as a concern that 678 00:38:33,504 --> 00:38:35,584 Speaker 3: I was just doing that because I felt like I 679 00:38:35,664 --> 00:38:38,464 Speaker 3: was stuck with having to marry somebody within the group. 680 00:38:38,784 --> 00:38:42,424 Speaker 3: And as sweet as he was and as much as 681 00:38:42,464 --> 00:38:44,824 Speaker 3: I enjoyed his friendship, I wasn't sure if it was 682 00:38:44,904 --> 00:38:49,144 Speaker 3: really authentically a romance. Yeah, you know, so I was 683 00:38:49,184 --> 00:38:53,024 Speaker 3: really confused about my own emotions, of course, and then 684 00:38:53,264 --> 00:38:57,344 Speaker 3: it was certainly manipulated from there, and he manipulated several 685 00:38:57,424 --> 00:39:00,344 Speaker 3: relationships within the group. So I don't know what the 686 00:39:00,424 --> 00:39:03,864 Speaker 3: specific definition of arranged marriage is, but in many ways 687 00:39:03,904 --> 00:39:05,384 Speaker 3: I think that categorized. 688 00:39:05,784 --> 00:39:09,064 Speaker 1: And also, you you know, you committed to say your 689 00:39:09,144 --> 00:39:12,704 Speaker 1: virginity for marriage, so you're a young woman, and I 690 00:39:12,704 --> 00:39:16,224 Speaker 1: imagine that played a part too in terms of you 691 00:39:16,304 --> 00:39:19,624 Speaker 1: wanted to have a full life experience, and his marriage 692 00:39:19,784 --> 00:39:23,784 Speaker 1: was the gatekeeping for that. Yeah, I mean that's biology. 693 00:39:24,104 --> 00:39:26,504 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, you know when you're a young woman and 694 00:39:26,544 --> 00:39:30,344 Speaker 3: you're rhyme and thriving, well, I would say in my pride, 695 00:39:30,784 --> 00:39:35,944 Speaker 3: but you know then I felt so alive and by Branton, 696 00:39:36,464 --> 00:39:40,744 Speaker 3: I really absolutely just wanted to experience the fullness of 697 00:39:40,784 --> 00:39:46,624 Speaker 3: my femininity and my womanhood. And yeah, that's just that's 698 00:39:46,664 --> 00:39:50,784 Speaker 3: that's in so many religious circles. That is the gait 699 00:39:50,944 --> 00:39:54,224 Speaker 3: that you just I know so many people that compromised 700 00:39:54,224 --> 00:39:57,104 Speaker 3: on a partner because they just wanted to because they 701 00:39:57,184 --> 00:39:58,584 Speaker 3: were that's it. 702 00:39:59,784 --> 00:40:04,144 Speaker 1: I know, you're right, it's biology to what was your 703 00:40:04,184 --> 00:40:05,304 Speaker 1: honeymoon life? 704 00:40:06,544 --> 00:40:08,744 Speaker 3: Well, I do talk about this a lot in the book, 705 00:40:08,824 --> 00:40:10,664 Speaker 3: and so I want to save a lot of that 706 00:40:10,704 --> 00:40:13,104 Speaker 3: for people just to be able to experience on their own. 707 00:40:14,304 --> 00:40:17,744 Speaker 3: But it did become clear that we were really not 708 00:40:17,904 --> 00:40:21,224 Speaker 3: well suited for each other, and it was difficult. There 709 00:40:21,264 --> 00:40:23,464 Speaker 3: was a lot of depression that set in for me 710 00:40:23,944 --> 00:40:29,864 Speaker 3: upon realizing that I made a choice that was going 711 00:40:29,904 --> 00:40:31,944 Speaker 3: to take my life in a completely different direction than 712 00:40:31,984 --> 00:40:35,744 Speaker 3: I wanted or planned. And of course so hard to 713 00:40:35,824 --> 00:40:39,464 Speaker 3: regret any of that though, because I have my amazing, 714 00:40:39,544 --> 00:40:43,784 Speaker 3: beautiful daughter who is just like the light of my life. 715 00:40:43,784 --> 00:40:45,504 Speaker 3: I'd go through all of it again and again if 716 00:40:45,544 --> 00:40:48,504 Speaker 3: I had to, just for her, because she's the best. 717 00:40:49,064 --> 00:40:53,024 Speaker 1: As your fame started to climb around this time, you 718 00:40:53,064 --> 00:40:56,904 Speaker 1: were on this cultiv show. You had a record dale 719 00:40:57,344 --> 00:41:01,584 Speaker 1: because you're also an incredible singer. Were rooms starting to 720 00:41:01,704 --> 00:41:04,744 Speaker 1: spread that perhaps you were in a cult and did 721 00:41:04,784 --> 00:41:08,424 Speaker 1: that affect the opportunities that you were given and was 722 00:41:08,464 --> 00:41:09,944 Speaker 1: it starting to impact on your career? 723 00:41:10,464 --> 00:41:13,224 Speaker 3: That was the impression I was given. Yeah. I mean, 724 00:41:13,344 --> 00:41:17,744 Speaker 3: I'm not in anybody else's office or head or conversations, 725 00:41:17,824 --> 00:41:25,904 Speaker 3: but what I was hearing from managers, agents, from conversations 726 00:41:26,144 --> 00:41:30,784 Speaker 3: with producers and things, it was like this subtle unfurling 727 00:41:31,024 --> 00:41:36,184 Speaker 3: of information that was she's involved in some kind of 728 00:41:36,424 --> 00:41:39,584 Speaker 3: religious something. I don't know. Maybe it's a cult, so 729 00:41:39,624 --> 00:41:41,784 Speaker 3: I don't know, but it was enough to be off 730 00:41:41,824 --> 00:41:44,904 Speaker 3: putting for people. You know, if you're casting a project, 731 00:41:44,904 --> 00:41:47,984 Speaker 3: you don't want to have any extra random stuff to 732 00:41:47,984 --> 00:41:50,624 Speaker 3: deal with. It's like, I just want you to show 733 00:41:50,664 --> 00:41:52,824 Speaker 3: up to work and do your job. And as a 734 00:41:52,864 --> 00:41:54,664 Speaker 3: director or producer, you think, I don't want to have 735 00:41:54,704 --> 00:41:58,224 Speaker 3: to deal with somebody that's got this bizarre personal life 736 00:41:58,224 --> 00:42:01,024 Speaker 3: that's a liability, like what if they start losing their mind, 737 00:42:01,024 --> 00:42:03,824 Speaker 3: what if they start doing something crazy. I don't know 738 00:42:03,864 --> 00:42:06,384 Speaker 3: how to anticipate or what to expect. And I think 739 00:42:06,424 --> 00:42:11,784 Speaker 3: it absolutely locked down my career into One Tree Hill 740 00:42:11,864 --> 00:42:15,504 Speaker 3: as the only thing that was stable and everything else 741 00:42:15,584 --> 00:42:16,304 Speaker 3: kind of went away. 742 00:42:16,864 --> 00:42:19,384 Speaker 1: Were there things that, like career opportunities and jobs that 743 00:42:19,424 --> 00:42:22,864 Speaker 1: you were turning down? Like was the cult impacting on 744 00:42:22,904 --> 00:42:26,144 Speaker 1: your choices? Like how was it showing up at work? 745 00:42:26,384 --> 00:42:30,824 Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely, Yeah. There were so many auditions that I 746 00:42:30,944 --> 00:42:34,264 Speaker 3: got that I was really primed for. I was in 747 00:42:34,304 --> 00:42:37,704 Speaker 3: such a good position because I was a singer, my 748 00:42:37,784 --> 00:42:40,744 Speaker 3: character was singing on the show. The show was really 749 00:42:40,944 --> 00:42:43,304 Speaker 3: it was like right in that sweet spot for the 750 00:42:43,344 --> 00:42:48,384 Speaker 3: show when it had broken past the Middle America secret, like, 751 00:42:48,424 --> 00:42:50,144 Speaker 3: oh are you watching this show? And it was really 752 00:42:50,224 --> 00:42:54,024 Speaker 3: now it was TRL and we're everywhere and everybody was 753 00:42:54,064 --> 00:42:57,424 Speaker 3: talking about us. And I was that's the moment. You know, 754 00:42:57,464 --> 00:43:00,264 Speaker 3: you've got to capitalize career wise, when when the momentum 755 00:43:00,304 --> 00:43:03,784 Speaker 3: is happening. And I just every audition I would take 756 00:43:03,864 --> 00:43:07,064 Speaker 3: to the group to take a look at and let's 757 00:43:07,104 --> 00:43:09,344 Speaker 3: read the script together and let's talk about if this 758 00:43:09,424 --> 00:43:13,584 Speaker 3: is a story that I should be participating in if 759 00:43:13,624 --> 00:43:16,264 Speaker 3: God really wants me to, you know, tell this story, 760 00:43:16,344 --> 00:43:18,064 Speaker 3: or if it's going to do damage in the world 761 00:43:18,224 --> 00:43:19,704 Speaker 3: or something, you know. I mean I remember getting the 762 00:43:19,704 --> 00:43:23,784 Speaker 3: script from Mama Mia and having a phone call with 763 00:43:23,824 --> 00:43:27,424 Speaker 3: the Mina character who said, oh, this has got to 764 00:43:27,464 --> 00:43:30,104 Speaker 3: be a huge no, you can't do this. There's a 765 00:43:30,184 --> 00:43:35,104 Speaker 3: dance of a pearl necklace and well, you know, because 766 00:43:35,144 --> 00:43:37,624 Speaker 3: I mean obviously you know the sexual connotation of a 767 00:43:37,664 --> 00:43:40,864 Speaker 3: pearl necklace. And then there's that's the name of one 768 00:43:40,864 --> 00:43:42,704 Speaker 3: of the songs that was in the show, was like 769 00:43:42,744 --> 00:43:45,944 Speaker 3: the dance of necklace, and it's just like it was 770 00:43:46,024 --> 00:43:48,864 Speaker 3: just about this woman who was fornicating with all these men, 771 00:43:48,944 --> 00:43:50,704 Speaker 3: and you know, you can't be a part of telling 772 00:43:50,744 --> 00:43:52,944 Speaker 3: a story like that. And I mean I watched that 773 00:43:52,984 --> 00:43:55,344 Speaker 3: movie with my daughter now. It's like one of our favorites, 774 00:43:55,504 --> 00:43:57,584 Speaker 3: you know, and I just such a great I just 775 00:43:57,704 --> 00:43:59,824 Speaker 3: kick myself all the time because there were so many 776 00:43:59,904 --> 00:44:02,744 Speaker 3: opportunities like that that I just said no to because 777 00:44:03,304 --> 00:44:07,424 Speaker 3: I didn't have the you'll pull agent And oh yeah, 778 00:44:07,464 --> 00:44:11,384 Speaker 3: I'm sure they were just exhausted in beside themselves. Yeah, 779 00:44:11,464 --> 00:44:14,424 Speaker 3: that's really rough. It's so sad. But I just didn't 780 00:44:14,424 --> 00:44:17,024 Speaker 3: have the maturity to know how to. I was getting 781 00:44:17,064 --> 00:44:19,784 Speaker 3: bad advice, you know, I was just getting. 782 00:44:20,224 --> 00:44:27,784 Speaker 1: And it was mind control, mind control. Joy's story is 783 00:44:27,784 --> 00:44:30,224 Speaker 1: a complicated one, and it's one that she's taken a 784 00:44:30,224 --> 00:44:33,984 Speaker 1: long time to untangle and make sense of. And there 785 00:44:34,024 --> 00:44:35,944 Speaker 1: is still so much of it to hear, because in 786 00:44:35,984 --> 00:44:39,064 Speaker 1: part two of this conversation, we find out why and 787 00:44:39,144 --> 00:44:43,384 Speaker 1: how Joy finally decided to leave the Big House Family cult, 788 00:44:43,864 --> 00:44:45,864 Speaker 1: how she picked up the pieces of her life when 789 00:44:45,864 --> 00:44:49,064 Speaker 1: she walked away, and how she's going now when it 790 00:44:49,064 --> 00:44:53,144 Speaker 1: comes to trust, faith, and relationships. Here's a bit of 791 00:44:53,184 --> 00:44:53,624 Speaker 1: our chat. 792 00:44:54,224 --> 00:44:57,304 Speaker 3: I remember her saying, are we ready to call it 793 00:44:57,344 --> 00:45:03,184 Speaker 3: a cult? And I just was shocked and I was 794 00:45:03,544 --> 00:45:09,824 Speaker 3: angry because how humiliating, how embarrassing. I'm that stupid, I'm 795 00:45:09,864 --> 00:45:11,784 Speaker 3: that wea I got into a cult? 796 00:45:12,624 --> 00:45:14,984 Speaker 1: Meet me in part two for the rest of Joy's story. 797 00:45:15,184 --> 00:45:16,704 Speaker 1: There's a link in the show notes.