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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on Hi. I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma

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Speaker 1: MIA's twice daily news podcast. The Quickie. Convicted child abuser

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Speaker 1: Ruby Frankie's daughter Shahi's memoir hits Ozzie Shells Today, exposing

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Speaker 1: a life of physical and psychological trauma experienced by the

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Speaker 1: children of a woman who farmed their lives for video content.

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Speaker 1: Today we look into the Frankie case and how it

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Speaker 1: highlights an issue around what we should and should not

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Speaker 1: be sharing about our children as they grow up alongside

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Speaker 1: social media. But first, here's the latest from the Quikie newsroom. Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: January fifteenth, During an emotional visit to the hospital where

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Speaker 1: she received treatment last year, Catherine, the Princess of Wales

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Speaker 1: has revealed her cancer is now in remission. Also releasing

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Speaker 1: a statement on social media, the princess thanked everyone who

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Speaker 1: helped her and husband Prince William through the process, say

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Speaker 1: it's a relief to now be in remission and that

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Speaker 1: she remains focused on her recovery, which will still take

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Speaker 1: some time. Catherine also spent time with patients at the

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Speaker 1: Royal Marsden Hospital in London, where she was also treated,

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Speaker 1: speaking to people who were having their chemo treatments, telling

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Speaker 1: one woman she became weirdly attached to the port mechanism

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Speaker 1: used to deliver the chemo drugs, joking she was almost

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Speaker 1: reluctant to have it taken out. Hamas has reportedly accepted

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Speaker 1: a draft agreement for a ceasefire in Gaza, agreeing to

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Speaker 1: the release of dozens of hostages after fifteen months at war.

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Speaker 1: U S Secretary of State Anthony Blincoln announced yesterday that

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Speaker 1: he believes there will be a ceasefire soon, asserting that

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Speaker 1: it was up to Hamas and claiming it was right

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Speaker 1: on the brink and closer than it's ever been before,

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Speaker 1: saying word could come within hours or days. The US, Katar,

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Speaker 1: and Egypt have spent the past twelve months attempting to

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Speaker 1: mediate an end to the war between Israel and Hamas

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Speaker 1: that has left more than forty six thousand Palestinians dead,

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Speaker 1: two point three million people displaced, with an entire nation

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Speaker 1: facing famine, when one hundred Israeli hostages still remained behind

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Speaker 1: enemy lines. The Israeli military saying they believe more than

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Speaker 1: a third of those may already be dead. The report

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Speaker 1: into Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the twenty twenty election

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Speaker 1: results has been released, with Special counsel Jack Smith saying

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Speaker 1: he believes Trump would have been convicted had voters not

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Speaker 1: returned him to the White House. Smith's report focuses on

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Speaker 1: the Republican's frantic efforts to cling to power in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty after losing to President Joe Biden. Smith saying the

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Speaker 1: through line of all of mister Trump's criminal efforts was

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Speaker 1: deceit knowingly false claims of election fraud, and the evidence

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Speaker 1: shows that mister Trump used these lies as a weapon

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Speaker 1: to defeat a federal government function foundational to the US

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Speaker 1: democratic process. With the case against mister Trump not going

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Speaker 1: forward now he's been returned as president, the report is

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Speaker 1: expected to be the final word on the case. Andrew

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Speaker 1: Tate has been released from house arrest as the second

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Speaker 1: investigation into his alleged crimes continues. Tate has been under

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Speaker 1: house arrest in Romania since August last year, after the

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Speaker 1: prosecution's initial bits to take him to trial failed. The judge,

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Speaker 1: citing flaws in the indictment, placing the owner's back on

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Speaker 1: the prosecution to make the case, which claims Tate and

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Speaker 1: brother Tristan created a criminal organization which was involved in

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Speaker 1: human trafficking and money laundering. This ruling will grant Tate

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Speaker 1: the freedom to travel around Romania, but not leave the country.

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Speaker 1: There is still an arrest warrant current for the brothers

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Speaker 1: in the UK, where they will be extradited once the

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Speaker 1: Romanian proceedings have been finalized. That's what's going on in

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Speaker 1: the world today. Next, Ruby Frankie's daughter has written a

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Speaker 1: book about her experience of being the subject of her

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Speaker 1: mother's online content, and it has a lesson for all

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Speaker 1: of us who have ever shared our children's young lives online.

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Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen, Ruby Frankie and her husband Kevin began

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Speaker 1: documenting their life as parents of six children on their

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Speaker 1: YouTube channel eight Passengers. What started as seemingly innocent family

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Speaker 1: content grew to a mass two point five million subscribers,

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Speaker 1: but beneath the carefully curated facade lay a dark reality

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Speaker 1: of abuse and exploitation.

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Speaker 2: Up until now, I was really hoping that like keeping

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Speaker 2: them home from school and wiping the floorboards would like

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Speaker 2: really bring pain.

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Speaker 1: By twenty twenty, viewers began expressing concerns about the Frankie

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Speaker 1: strict parenting methods, like when one of their sons mentioned

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Speaker 1: being forced to sleep on a bean bag for seven months.

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Speaker 2: My bedroom was taken away for seven months and then

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Speaker 2: you give it back like a couple of weeks ago.

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Speaker 3: I don't think her viewers no.

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Speaker 4: Bag.

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Speaker 1: Ruby would also withhold food as punishment, including refusing to

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Speaker 1: deliver a lunch to her six year old daughter who'd

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Speaker 1: forgotten to pack one.

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Speaker 2: You did not pack a lunch today, and can I

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Speaker 2: bring a lunch over to the school. This happens quite

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Speaker 2: often when you're having raising children, because I know that

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Speaker 2: her teacher is uncomfortable with her being hungry and not

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Speaker 2: having a lunch, and it would ease her discomfort if

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Speaker 2: I came to the school with lunch. I responded and

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Speaker 2: just said it was responsible for making her lunches in

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Speaker 2: the morning, and she actually told me she did pack

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Speaker 2: a lunch. So the natural outcome is she's just going

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Speaker 2: to need to be hungry.

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Speaker 1: Frankie would post video showing her threatening to cut up

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Speaker 1: her children's beloved stuffed animals.

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Speaker 3: If you cut one more thing in my house.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to take the scissors, look at me, and

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Speaker 2: I'm going to cut its head off.

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Speaker 1: She would also explain the strict rules under which her

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Speaker 1: children are meant to live.

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Speaker 3: You don't get to sneak, you don't get to hide,

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Speaker 3: you don't get to have secrets, not in my house.

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Speaker 2: Do you see how loving that is a great rule

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Speaker 2: of thumb, That in my house there is no such

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Speaker 2: thing as privacy.

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Speaker 3: You're expected to be humble about it.

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Speaker 1: The situation deteriorated further when Frankie connected with Jody Hildebrandt,

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Speaker 1: a Mormon family counselor. In twenty twenty two, Hildebrandt and

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Speaker 1: Frankie moved in together, leading to Kevin Frankie's departure. According

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Speaker 1: to the new memoir written by Ruby and Kevin's daughter Shari,

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Speaker 1: The House of My Mother, a Daughter's quest for freedom,

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Speaker 1: her mother's abuse transformed from physical to psychological under Hildebrand's influence.

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Speaker 1: Shari told People Magazine that when she left for college,

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Speaker 1: she was essentially cut off from the family, but with

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Speaker 1: so many siblings, Ruby Frankie's dark life could continue on.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps that's why she wanted so many children.

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Speaker 3: A set of Russian nesting dolls.

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Speaker 1: Each won a slightly smaller version of the last to

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Speaker 1: absorb the tsunami of her raging emotions. On August thirty,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, the facade crumbled when Ruby's twelve year

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Speaker 1: old son escaped through a window of Hildebrand's home. The boy,

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Speaker 1: found emciated with duct tape around his extremities, sought help

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Speaker 1: from a neighbor.

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Speaker 4: I just had a twelve year old boy show up

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Speaker 4: here at my front door asking for help, and he

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Speaker 4: said he had just came from a neighbor's house, and

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Speaker 4: we know there's been problems at this neighbor's house. He's emaciated,

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Speaker 4: he's got tape around his legs, he's hungry and he's thirsty,

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Speaker 4: and he asked us to call the police. So he's

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Speaker 4: very afraid.

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Speaker 1: Police later discovered Ruby's nine year old daughter hiding in

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Speaker 1: a closet, also in a malnourished state. Investigators would find

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Speaker 1: a room in the home protected by a door usually

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Speaker 1: found on a safe. After they got in, they found

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Speaker 1: it set up for someone to be detained, including handcuffs

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Speaker 1: and ropes. This is where the young boy who'd finally

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Speaker 1: escaped his torture had been kept the last time he'd

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Speaker 1: tried to free himself. Police also found journals kept by

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Speaker 1: Frankie explaining the torture, how she was trying to remove

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Speaker 1: demons from her children's bodies, explaining how she would hold

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Speaker 1: them under water with her hair over their noses and mouths,

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Speaker 1: trying to force the demons out. Frankie pleaded guilty to

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Speaker 1: four counts of aggravated child abuse in December twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: and in February twenty four both she and Hildebrandt received

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Speaker 1: four consecutive prison sentences of one to fifteen years each,

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Speaker 1: with a maximum of thirty years under Utah law. Shari

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Speaker 1: Frankie's memoir exposes the broader implications of family vlogging and

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Speaker 1: child exploitation on social media. From the age of five,

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Speaker 1: she endured physical abuse, including face slaps and violent reactions

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Speaker 1: during piano practices. The abuse would evolve into psychological manipulation

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Speaker 1: as her mother's online presence grew. She spoke about the

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Speaker 1: strangeness of having her life documented and the moment she

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Speaker 1: started to realize that it wasn't what she wanted, telling

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Speaker 1: People magazine a shopping trip became awkward and uncomfortable.

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Speaker 5: I was eighteen and we went bra shopping and she

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Speaker 5: was filming it. I was like, this is kind of

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Speaker 5: weird and inappropriate.

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Speaker 1: She also explained in her memoir how having so many

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Speaker 1: people following her upbringing meant for many her trauma seemed

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Speaker 1: more like a TV show and it was hard for

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Speaker 1: them to grasp But this was actually her in her siblings'

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Speaker 1: real lives.

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Speaker 5: How quickly have we as a society become numb to

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Speaker 5: the struggles of others? Our capacity for compassion eroded by

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Speaker 5: the sheer volume of human drama were exposed to daily.

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Speaker 5: We were just characters and a soap opera now, except

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Speaker 5: the drama was real and the consequences permanent. Our grief

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Speaker 5: had been reduced to a mere commodity, packaged and sold,

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Speaker 5: consumed and discarded.

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Speaker 1: The Ruby Frankie case highlights a disturbing trend in social

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Speaker 1: media exploitation of children, and research shows that influencers face

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Speaker 1: significant risks. Children involved in family vlogging often experience increased

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Speaker 1: rates of depression and anxiety due to constant pressure to perform.

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Speaker 1: The unregulated nature of their work environment can also lead

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Speaker 1: to psychological harm, with many lacking proper coping mechanisms for stress.

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Speaker 1: These children also have their most intimate moments shared without consent,

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Speaker 1: creating a permanent digital footprint that they cannot control. Many

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Speaker 1: family bloggers document everything from potty training to medical challenges,

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Speaker 1: disregarding their children's right to privacy. Now, while some child

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Speaker 1: influencers can earn up to ten thousand dollars per sponsored post,

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Speaker 1: a lack of legislation exists across many countries to protect

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Speaker 1: their ownings. Unlike child actors, who are protected by laws

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Speaker 1: requiring trust funds, most influencers have no financial safeguards. The

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Speaker 1: case has sparked renewed calls for stronger regulations protecting children

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Speaker 1: in social media content. Doctor Nicki Sweeney is the founder

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Speaker 1: and director of ai her Way. Nikki, are we at

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Speaker 1: a crossroads where we need to seriously consider laws around

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Speaker 1: restricting what we can post about our own children? Yeah?

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Speaker 6: I think it's a really tricky question because obviously we're

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Speaker 6: talking about people that have children. You know, they're underneath

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Speaker 6: your guidance, they are underneath your roof, and we decide

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Speaker 6: what is best for them. But when it comes to

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Speaker 6: what we share online, I think the thing is that

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Speaker 6: a lot of parents don't actually understand the ramifications or

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Speaker 6: the potential ramifications of that. So when we think about,

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Speaker 6: you know, the fact that we have family flogs, we

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Speaker 6: think about that we share these key moments, we celebrate

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Speaker 6: our children online. There are a lot of people that

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Speaker 6: make a living out of having these family style YouTube

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Speaker 6: channels or tiktoch channels or whatever. We think about that,

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Speaker 6: especially when you're starting to make money from it. We

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Speaker 6: essentially have child labor and it's uncomfortable to label it

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Speaker 6: as that. But any time we are getting children to work,

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Speaker 6: we have to recognize that they need to be compensated

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Speaker 6: and they should fall underneath protection. And what we see

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Speaker 6: in Australia, as it is in most places around the world,

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Speaker 6: is we really fail to have legislation that protects those

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Speaker 6: children because they're not actually classified as being in the

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Speaker 6: entertainment industry. Being on social media is this huge gray area,

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Speaker 6: and we've seen places like France in twenty twenty bring

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Speaker 6: in legislation that says for children that are under sixteen,

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Speaker 6: if they're performing on social media and their family is

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Speaker 6: receiving financial benefit, there is a portion that has to

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Speaker 6: be put away for the child and there are limitations

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Speaker 6: on how often the child can work, but that's not

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Speaker 6: the case around the world, and I think it's really

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Speaker 6: time to start looking at what that means. Because the

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Speaker 6: more and more that we're online, and the more and

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Speaker 6: more we're consuming this content.

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Speaker 3: Even for regular parents like myself, there is.

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Speaker 6: This pressure to share and to expose our children because

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Speaker 6: we want to celebrate them in these really kind of

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Speaker 6: open spaces, and we really need to start asking what

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Speaker 6: does that mean for them and their livelihoods and their

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Speaker 6: well being?

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Speaker 1: Can we talk about their livelihoods down the track, because yes,

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Speaker 1: making money from content now is important for them to

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Speaker 1: get their fair share of but how could having this

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Speaker 1: digital footprint that they have no control over that could

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Speaker 1: include things like, you know, the time they would toilet

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Speaker 1: trained to the time they would take in bram shopping.

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Speaker 1: What future impact does that have on their livelihood if

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Speaker 1: they decide that they don't want to be a content

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Speaker 1: creator when they grow up, what if they want to

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Speaker 1: be a lawyer or work for ASO and how they

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Speaker 1: can't because they've got this ginormous digital footprint already.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, And I think that that's something that we need

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Speaker 6: to start asking ourselves.

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Speaker 3: I think when we are inclined to post.

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Speaker 6: Things about our children, I would encourage parents to stop

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Speaker 6: and pause and ask themselves if that is serving your

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Speaker 6: child or if it's more about your need for validation

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Speaker 6: and being seen.

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Speaker 3: And again not to judge anyone.

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Speaker 6: I mean, in the past posted photos of my children

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Speaker 6: to celebrate them.

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Speaker 3: Or to share with extended family about, you know, what

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Speaker 3: they're up to.

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Speaker 6: But we need to really ask ourselves if that is

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Speaker 6: serving the best interests of a child.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I was lucky enough.

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Speaker 6: I'm an eighties baby, So when I think about my

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Speaker 6: teenage the most awkward of times, I am so grateful

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Speaker 6: that I don't have to relive that part of my life.

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Speaker 6: But for our children now, and you know, there are

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Speaker 6: disturbing trends. I think of parents purposely posting embarrassing content

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Speaker 6: of their kids in this kind of funny way of, oh,

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Speaker 6: this is what I'll show them when they turn twenty one.

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Speaker 6: But you're not realizing that that is always going to

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Speaker 6: be there, and if they're searching them or something to

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Speaker 6: do with them or the place they lived, it is

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Speaker 6: possible to find that kind of stuff. So I think

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Speaker 6: parents should ask themselves, is it for my child or

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Speaker 6: is it for myself? And also would I feel comfortable

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Speaker 6: if this equivalent video resurfaced of me when I was two, five, thirteen, sixteen, whatever.

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Speaker 1: It is also an extra layer of posting things online

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five that we might not have considered

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Speaker 1: ten years ago, is that AI is now such a

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Speaker 1: major part of that conversation. But how could AI actually

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Speaker 1: impact those kids whose lives are digitally encapsulated by their

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Speaker 1: families and when they're young.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it's another kind of really big onus

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Speaker 6: on what we need to shift our thinking too in

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Speaker 6: terms of you know, twenty twenty four to twenty four five,

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Speaker 6: it's changed the game from yes, when I post things

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Speaker 6: of my children, I have given away control of this photo, right,

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Speaker 6: these platforms now own the rights to whatever I'm sharing

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Speaker 6: with them.

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Speaker 3: That in a cell is a risk that we need

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Speaker 3: to be mindful of as parents.

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Speaker 6: But now we have this added layer that when we

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Speaker 6: are sharing these photos, not only are we're giving away

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Speaker 6: the rights that particular image, but we are very likely

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Speaker 6: giving away also the rights to our child's likeness. And

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Speaker 6: so what I mean by that is when we're posting

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Speaker 6: things on platforms like Instagram, and Facebook.

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Speaker 3: They're owned by Meta.

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Speaker 6: Meta has their own AI platforms, so they are scraping

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Speaker 6: data to see these image generators.

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Speaker 3: So these image generators.

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Speaker 6: Can learn what images look like and what different people

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Speaker 6: appear to be like. And there is a chance, particularly

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Speaker 6: if you post a lot of your children, because AI

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Speaker 6: is all based on probability, right, So if we ask

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Speaker 6: AI platforms for a picture of an eight year old kid,

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Speaker 6: it's looking at all the pictures it.

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Speaker 3: Has of eight year old kids to try and form

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Speaker 3: a face.

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Speaker 6: If your child is disproportionately in that mix a lot,

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Speaker 6: the chance of AI producing a likeness to your child increases,

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Speaker 6: And so at that moment, you've not only given away

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Speaker 6: that particular photo of your kid, but if you give

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Speaker 6: away the likeness of your child and people can create

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Speaker 6: completely fake images with it and fake film, that's where

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Speaker 6: things can start to get even more sketchy and really

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Speaker 6: kind of have negative ramifications because we are blurring the

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Speaker 6: lines between what it's real and what is created by

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Speaker 6: AI at the moment, and those platforms are only going

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Speaker 6: to become more sophisticated.

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Speaker 1: I guess we also too have to worry about, speaking

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Speaker 1: of fake films, if someone takes the likeness of your child.

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Speaker 1: We've seen this happen in school yards already and turn

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Speaker 1: that into pornography, whether that be photographs or films. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: people could create child exploitation material using your child's face.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, and we know from the deep fake pornography site

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Speaker 6: it has increased one hundred percent year and year since

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Speaker 6: twenty nineteen, so those platforms are increasing dramatically. Of the

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Speaker 6: top five deep fake pornography websites, one hundred percent of

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Speaker 6: the content victimizers women and girls. So if this stuff

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Speaker 6: is prolific people that want to create this type of content,

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Speaker 6: to entrance is very, very low because you don't need

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Speaker 6: a huge skill set anymore because AI is so good

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Speaker 6: at creating this stuff. So, like you said, we've already

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Speaker 6: seen instances where teenage boys can create this stuff at

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Speaker 6: the drop of a hat, and it means that there's

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Speaker 6: a huge risk of this being more and more prevalent

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Speaker 6: as time goes on and these tools become even easier

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Speaker 6: to use.

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Speaker 1: Just finally, Nikki, what impact does Mark Zuckerberg's announcement that

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Speaker 1: Meta is stopping fact checking in twenty twenty five, What

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Speaker 1: do we need to know when that comes to Meta

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Speaker 1: having our children's faces as part of their data set

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Speaker 1: and what that could actually mean if no fact checking

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Speaker 1: is happening.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think the risk with that, right is on

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Speaker 6: online spaces, there is a lot of anonymous behavior and

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Speaker 6: so we often see the worst.

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Speaker 3: Of humankind come out on online spaces.

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Speaker 6: And I guess my personal fear with the lack of

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Speaker 6: censorship and just relying on community flagging things is that

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Speaker 6: we have really large communities online that would see no

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Speaker 6: problem in harmful and exploitative content. And what we're relying

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Speaker 6: on is the fact that these things are all based

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Speaker 6: on algorithms, right, And these algorithms they really reward activity,

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Speaker 6: and they reward sharing, and they reward views and engagement,

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Speaker 6: and people can really heavily engage with bad content, either

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Speaker 6: out of genuine alignment with that or shock and awe.

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Speaker 6: And what we risk is when we fail to have censorship,

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Speaker 6: these things can become amplified and even more people could

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Speaker 6: see them, and they're exposed to even more dangers because

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Speaker 6: we don't stop them before they get to that point.

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Speaker 6: So I think that this change in metas platform and

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Speaker 6: it means that you know, we have X having no censorship,

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Speaker 6: we have meta which includes Instagram having no censorship. I

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Speaker 6: wouldn't be surprised if this leaks out to other highly

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Speaker 6: used social media platforms. We need to be more vigilant,

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Speaker 6: I think than ever about what we share and really

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Speaker 6: asking ourselves is it's necessary to share it, because you know,

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Speaker 6: we don't want to scare people, but it is part

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Speaker 6: of our job as parents. You know, I've got poor

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Speaker 6: kids myself. You want to show them the best of

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Speaker 6: the world, but you also understand the dangers. It's why

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Speaker 6: we teach them road safety. It's why we know don't

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Speaker 6: let them go out at night alone unless we exactly

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Speaker 6: know where they're going to be and we've got some

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Speaker 6: way of contacting them.

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Speaker 3: It's another platform like that.

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Speaker 6: It's less tangible for us because it's online, but it's

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Speaker 6: potentially even more scary than your average kind of neighborhood streets.

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Speaker 6: So we need to be asking ourselves about why we're

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Speaker 6: sharing things, if it's really serving our child, and what

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Speaker 6: measures can we take to put in place to further

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Speaker 6: protect them.

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Speaker 1: Shari Frankie knows writing about her experience will again shine

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Speaker 1: a spotlight on her younger siblings, referred to as only

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Speaker 1: R and E. During their mother's trial, but after what

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Speaker 1: she and they have endured, she says she will not

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Speaker 1: exploit them in any way anymore as they move forward

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Speaker 1: from this.

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Speaker 5: I knew I had to make a stand somehow. Part

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Speaker 5: of that would be saying no to the world's desire

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Speaker 5: for me to talk about my siblings anywhere, even in

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Speaker 5: the pages of my my own book.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for taking the time to feed your mind with

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Speaker 1: us today. The Quikie is produced by me Claire Murphy

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Speaker 1: and our executive producer, Taylor Strano, with audio production by

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Speaker 1: Tiegan sad Luck.